I think the main problem is tier disparity, stat-wise (and cost-wise) pikemen look like they are a tier (or at least half a tier) lower than hoplites. Maybe you should compare armies of equal cost?
Its ironic, as far as I understand as no historical expert, but the phalanxes kicked the hoplites arse in history, at least they replaced them as more advanced tactics etc. Plus iirc phalanxes were made up of professional warriors and hoplites tended to be weekend warriors. I just think its funny, not complaining. I adore hoplites and rtw would be less with those ass kickers
@@theaveragecube_the Spartans aren’t a great example. As by this time period there were very few “Spartan” Hoplites because of Spartas population decline
@@micahbonewell5994 That's literally what i said... The Macedonians crushed the Spartan rebellion by kIng Agis' 50 years prior to Rome Total War's start date.
Curious about phalanxes on a bridge vs advancing spears, though I think whenever you order spears/phalanxes to attack it just results in them getting closer and closer until they pull out secondaries, with maybe just a few guys in the back rows that are body blocked continuing to use primary. AI with phalanx is just a bit lacking in RTW but when you can get them to work they can be a blast - sometimes just unphalanxing and rephalaxing or attacking then cancelling can make a big difference, but against other spears it is always iffy. I like to use Silver Shield pikes with SS legionnaires in front - like an armored wall in front of them with pikes behind them for this reason. Even Urbans can’t break in if in a tight spot and this works better than spears alone. Unfortunately the other factions can’t really pull this off due to their limited rosters, except for Germania (but not as effective due to higher attack and less defensive infantry and only tier 1 phalanx) and maybe Armenia and Pontus if you use Hillmen
I found them one of the easiest, fastest campaigns. You can literally win the campaign with two of their low tier units exclusively: Levy Pikemen and Light Lancers. Light Lancers are the first cav they get from the Stables. Hammer & Anvil tactics are 100% viable for Macedon right from the start, even with Militia Hoplites thanks to the Light Lancers.
@@Warmaker01 I always hated playing against AI Macedon because of how much it spams Light Lancers. They're not hard to beat, just annoying :D Now I'm thinking about trying to play a campaign using *only* Levy Pikemen and Light Lancers.
@@Warmaker01 finally one who got my idea. If you do not challenge yourself with very hard battle difficulty setting, Macedon's army is easily the best in the game, given how effective their low-tier army are: Levy Pikemen, Light Lancer, Archer (Cretan if needed) all supported by temple upgrades. I always love an army that can be easily mustered and replenished everywhere
When fighting vs armoured hoplites with phalanx pikemen, you're not supposed to attack order the hoplites. If you turn on the guard mode and have your phalanx pikemen stay in formation, the armoured hoplites will have lot tougher time trying to get to your pikemen, thus you'd likely win as Macedonia.
You turned off guard mode! Good! You want to force move into them. Like drag the cursor to walk into them or hold ctl and push into them, if you notice one side taking more damage, you can drag and move the formation to that side and push forward!
Main thing i dislike is how a random soldier that aint spear with spear wall can cause the whole unit to have issues. Same for cav atleast in medieval 2 cuz cav just obliterates on charge for ai but when i do it.... oh look the stupid general is the first loss i take
Because they are the same in every faction and is the starting phalanx for both Greece and Macedon. Unless there's something else I don't remember, the only unit on the level of militia hoplites are nubian spearmen but they both use same length spears.
Всегда пикинерами новобранцами побеждал гоплитов. Там же тупо в обороне стоять надо) длина пик решает очень многое. И королевские пикинеры не должны проигрывать спартанцам
Если смотреть по статам, то гоплиты намного сильнее. Были бы у них одинаковые статы, пикинеры выносили бы их вперед ногами. Ради баланса их делают уж больно деревяными, особенно во второй части, где их стрелки просто уничтожают. Хотя я считаю что это правильно, ибо так тебе приходится думать и понастоящему тактикульничать. Аве, Цезарь.
@@МихаилФурсов-й8с Thanks for the comment. A very valid point that if things were cost-effective, it would be a different story. I guess I have to test it :)
Completely ridiculous game mechanics, Hoplites historically had no chance against pikes, pikemen were professionals, Hoplites just ordinary farmers with arms. And obviously the Hoplite Phalanx didn't work as it does in the game:)
I guess that is something Rome 2 actually did a lot better, the historical performance of Units. Pikes in Rome 2 are just very easy to kill by missiles, but in a 1vs1 against even more expensive Hoplites they would win (as they should).
@@qualityoldgames7721 No, I just mean I have countless of hours in this game and I was sure that maceodanian phalanxes always beat standard greek phalanx becasue they have longer pointy sticks lol
@@tymcio11 Yea, Perhaps the higher armor values of the Hoplites was the deciding factor so they got close enough. Then again, the AI is not usually that bright with phalanxes ;)
I figured Spartans would kick ass, but didn't expect the entire spear phalanx roster to be so overwhelming against their piked counterparts.
Yea, that was surprising. Thanks for the comment :)
tbf, Spartans are not even worth their money and effort - you should just pick heavy armored instead.
I think the main problem is tier disparity, stat-wise (and cost-wise) pikemen look like they are a tier (or at least half a tier) lower than hoplites. Maybe you should compare armies of equal cost?
Thanks for the comment. Agreed on the tiers. The cost-efficiency is on To-Do list :)
Ah good old Greeks Phalanx units how i miss seeing you in action
Yea, they are quite effective. Thanks for the comment :)
Its ironic, as far as I understand as no historical expert, but the phalanxes kicked the hoplites arse in history, at least they replaced them as more advanced tactics etc.
Plus iirc phalanxes were made up of professional warriors and hoplites tended to be weekend warriors.
I just think its funny, not complaining. I adore hoplites and rtw would be less with those ass kickers
Thanks for the comment. Agreed that historically the Hoplites would probably have had no chances :)
Even the Spartans were silenced by the Macedonian Phalanx, you’d never think it watching this. 😂
@@theaveragecube_the Spartans aren’t a great example. As by this time period there were very few “Spartan” Hoplites because of Spartas population decline
@@micahbonewell5994 That's literally what i said... The Macedonians crushed the Spartan rebellion by kIng Agis' 50 years prior to Rome Total War's start date.
Spears against men. Pikes against cav.
Hmm. Imo Spears do rather well against cav too :) Thanks for the comment
Those phalanxes look like two hedgehogs fighting. 😂
Indeed. Thanks for the comment :)
Curious about phalanxes on a bridge vs advancing spears, though I think whenever you order spears/phalanxes to attack it just results in them getting closer and closer until they pull out secondaries, with maybe just a few guys in the back rows that are body blocked continuing to use primary. AI with phalanx is just a bit lacking in RTW but when you can get them to work they can be a blast - sometimes just unphalanxing and rephalaxing or attacking then cancelling can make a big difference, but against other spears it is always iffy.
I like to use Silver Shield pikes with SS legionnaires in front - like an armored wall in front of them with pikes behind them for this reason. Even Urbans can’t break in if in a tight spot and this works better than spears alone. Unfortunately the other factions can’t really pull this off due to their limited rosters, except for Germania (but not as effective due to higher attack and less defensive infantry and only tier 1 phalanx) and maybe Armenia and Pontus if you use Hillmen
Turn off guard mode and just drag the formation with the cursor like you are moving them. That way the spears stay in the direction you want!
Thanks for the comment. Sounds rather interesting tactic, especially with Seleucids :)
What was weird? Nothing was weird! The Spartans won as expected.
The formations of the last pair :) Thanks for the comment
God, no wonder my Macedon campaigns were such a slog
I found them one of the easiest, fastest campaigns. You can literally win the campaign with two of their low tier units exclusively: Levy Pikemen and Light Lancers. Light Lancers are the first cav they get from the Stables. Hammer & Anvil tactics are 100% viable for Macedon right from the start, even with Militia Hoplites thanks to the Light Lancers.
imho Macedon army is one of the strongest in the game if you can use that roster half decent.
@@Warmaker01 I always hated playing against AI Macedon because of how much it spams Light Lancers. They're not hard to beat, just annoying :D Now I'm thinking about trying to play a campaign using *only* Levy Pikemen and Light Lancers.
They do need cav to be effective imo, whereas Greeks don't have that cav, so they have to do with infantry only :) Thanks for the comment.
@@Warmaker01 finally one who got my idea. If you do not challenge yourself with very hard battle difficulty setting, Macedon's army is easily the best in the game, given how effective their low-tier army are: Levy Pikemen, Light Lancer, Archer (Cretan if needed) all supported by temple upgrades. I always love an army that can be easily mustered and replenished everywhere
When fighting vs armoured hoplites with phalanx pikemen, you're not supposed to attack order the hoplites. If you turn on the guard mode and have your phalanx pikemen stay in formation, the armoured hoplites will have lot tougher time trying to get to your pikemen, thus you'd likely win as Macedonia.
Thanks for the comment. That is likely the case and will be tested in a future video. Though, the tests are often a "meeting battle" :)
At least they fight long time than I expected. Above 50 casualty was not bad result.
One has to give them that. Thanks for the comment :)
You turned off guard mode! Good! You want to force move into them. Like drag the cursor to walk into them or hold ctl and push into them, if you notice one side taking more damage, you can drag and move the formation to that side and push forward!
Sounds interesting :) Thanks for the comment.
If I remember correctly, by ordering pikes to stop 2 secondes before contact they perform better. However this way the line might not be straight.
Thanks for the comment. Yea, that would probably help them :)
Hey, you did it, thanks! I guess Creative Assembly gave Macedon good cavalry for reasons, eh? 😁
Indeed :) Thanks for the comment.
can we see the phalangists from alexander total war put up against all other hoplite and pike units in rome total war
That is the plan at some point. :) Thanks for the comment.
I like how you include with guard mode and without guard mode, otherwise you'll never hear the end of it from pike fanboys. lmao
Let's say I have heard several times too many ;D Thanks for the comment.
I've got an idea for a series, vs carthagianian infantry roster
Thanks for the comment. I will add that to To-Do list. We will finish the vs. Roman Infantry roster though :)
Main thing i dislike is how a random soldier that aint spear with spear wall can cause the whole unit to have issues. Same for cav atleast in medieval 2 cuz cav just obliterates on charge for ai but when i do it.... oh look the stupid general is the first loss i take
Well, there has to be some challenge to the player :D Thanks for the comment.
It is also ludicrous that they seem to be doing better than pre-marian Roman units who were the ones who actually defeated the Macedonian Phalanx🙈...
Indeed :) Thanks for the comment.
Hmmm you didn’t start with hoplite militia?
Because they are the same in every faction and is the starting phalanx for both Greece and Macedon.
Unless there's something else I don't remember, the only unit on the level of militia hoplites are nubian spearmen but they both use same length spears.
They dont have pike equivalent from tier 2. That is the reason. Thanks for the comment :)
Swordfights that starts after they drop spears looks goofy, pikes have no chance of winning it
Thanks for the comment. Agreed, the better defense value determines it when it gets close and personal :)
Всегда пикинерами новобранцами побеждал гоплитов. Там же тупо в обороне стоять надо) длина пик решает очень многое. И королевские пикинеры не должны проигрывать спартанцам
В том-то всё и дело, что оба идут в наступление. И пикинеры с сасрисой сразу теряют своё преимущество, сближаясь с врагом, а не стоя ждать его.
Если смотреть по статам, то гоплиты намного сильнее. Были бы у них одинаковые статы, пикинеры выносили бы их вперед ногами. Ради баланса их делают уж больно деревяными, особенно во второй части, где их стрелки просто уничтожают. Хотя я считаю что это правильно, ибо так тебе приходится думать и понастоящему тактикульничать. Аве, Цезарь.
Thanks for the comment. I don't think it would have been fair if other side stood still but that can also make an interesting test :)
если что, спартанские гоплиты проигрывают рекрутам пикинёрам за примерно 300 динариев (ДЕРЖУ В КУРСЕ)
@@МихаилФурсов-й8с Thanks for the comment. A very valid point that if things were cost-effective, it would be a different story. I guess I have to test it :)
Pikemen: "we'll hold the line until cav deals the killing blow 😎"
Hoplites: "why waiting for damn horses when I can kill my enemies myself? 😈"
Well put :D Thanks for the comment.
Completely ridiculous game mechanics, Hoplites historically had no chance against pikes, pikemen were professionals, Hoplites just ordinary farmers with arms. And obviously the Hoplite Phalanx didn't work as it does in the game:)
I guess that is something Rome 2 actually did a lot better, the historical performance of Units. Pikes in Rome 2 are just very easy to kill by missiles, but in a 1vs1 against even more expensive Hoplites they would win (as they should).
Thanks for the comment. Agreed that there is quite a bit of non-historicity in this :)
wtf?
:) Thanks for the comment.
@@qualityoldgames7721 No, I just mean I have countless of hours in this game and I was sure that maceodanian phalanxes always beat standard greek phalanx becasue they have longer pointy sticks lol
@@tymcio11 Yea, Perhaps the higher armor values of the Hoplites was the deciding factor so they got close enough. Then again, the AI is not usually that bright with phalanxes ;)
Easily.
Seems to be the case. Thanks for the comment :)