Most POWERFUL Control Build Analysis: D4 Control Freak

Поділитися
Вставка
  • Опубліковано 25 лис 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 52

  • @insertname5371
    @insertname5371 8 місяців тому +16

    Let’s be real here Colby is a very attractive man.
    I need to run my current character through cpr calculations.

    • @DndUnoptimized
      @DndUnoptimized  8 місяців тому +2

      Can't disagree there! Let me know how it goes if you end up doing it

  • @AllNighterProduction
    @AllNighterProduction 2 місяці тому +1

    As someone who primarily plays controller type builds I love this system you have created. Not perfect, but there will never be anything perfect as it will always be situational, but this gives atleast some concrete measure that I think is valuable and comparable. You have earned my subscription. Look forward to more.

    • @DndUnoptimized
      @DndUnoptimized  2 місяці тому

      Thanks! It'll never be perfect, but at least if gives a reasonable idea!
      Glad you like it and welcome aboard!

  • @DeadpoolAli
    @DeadpoolAli 4 місяці тому +1

    I LOVED this video.
    Would love to see more. Some of his builds aren't the most damage but are casters and thus would have high damage *and* control!!
    And to me that has much more value than just slightly higher numbers.

    • @DndUnoptimized
      @DndUnoptimized  4 місяці тому

      I actually got the idea to do the control calculations from watching his videos. He regularly adds in control options and says this is good control, but then I wonder what good control means. Then I thought it would be nice to have some rough way to calculate control to give an impression what level of control the build could exert. Thus CPR was born!

  • @vinspad3
    @vinspad3 8 місяців тому +5

    I know it takes A LONG TIME, but analyzing d4s top builds would be amazing. Like the top 5 Sustained, Nova, and Tanks. Because you haven't spent much in the durability area and I'd love to see which of their tank builds have the best control or best damage.
    I love that you gave us the damage and survivability numbers because either could be a reason to take or not take the build. Too glass cannon? Not worth it. Not enough damage? Might be a consideration in 2 or 3 player groups that NEED damage from everyone.
    Seriously, amazing stuff.

    • @DndUnoptimized
      @DndUnoptimized  8 місяців тому

      Thanks for the positive feedback! That's a good idea, I'll put it on the list, I've often wondered that kind of stuff while watching his videos too. It'll kind of depend on if people are interested in that content based on how this video does though. And yea, that would take me a lot of work haha.

  • @stabieman
    @stabieman 8 місяців тому +5

    CPR is a really fascinating way to analyze builds. This one was hilarious though, "you do no damage...but neither does anyone else" 😂

    • @DndUnoptimized
      @DndUnoptimized  8 місяців тому

      I think it's nice to analyze things besides just damage, glad you enjoy! Yea this build is seriously good at preventing the enemy from doing anything

  • @williamdavis7274
    @williamdavis7274 8 місяців тому +2

    Love the idea of CPR, and we'll it has its issue as a practical measure ... so does any multi target dpr Calc. So I applaud it. Great stuff

  • @Terraque0
    @Terraque0 8 місяців тому +2

    mindwhip can be upcast to effect more than 1 target per spell level, doubling or tripling the control value. edit: never mind you used it in your calculation 🤗

    • @DndUnoptimized
      @DndUnoptimized  8 місяців тому +2

      You are right. I actually never upcast it, but I twin it with split enchantment. Unfortunately split enchantment won't work if you upcast it, so I just left out as level 2 hitting two targets. I don't know how realistic hitting 4 targets with it really is after 2 full rounds of combat, but I definitely could have done that once we are at higher levels.

  • @supersmily5811
    @supersmily5811 8 місяців тому +1

    If you want a new build to analyze, there's always the new version of the Small Medium at Large build. Criminal Halfling Divination Wizard now with 1 level of Clockwork Sorcerer, take the Lucky and Bountiful Luck (Halfling specific) feats and use all that dice manipulation to help the party or kneecap enemy saving throws. From there though, that's the end of the gimmick, so the build could go for damage saves OR control saves, which is interesting. Personally, as combat relevant spells I'd take Expeditious Retreat, Shield, Blur, Dragon's Breath, Hold Person, Hypnotic Pattern, Slow, Fireball, Banishment, Polymorph, Animate Objects, Wall of Force, Mass Suggestion, Mental Prison, Forcecage, Plane Shift, Reverse Gravity, Mind Blank, Gate, Foresight, Meteor Swarm, Prismatic Wall, Shapechange, True Polymorph, and Wish (To no one's surprise). We can dip 2 more levels to get Fighter Action Surge if we want less 9th level spells for free but in exchange can combo Prismatic Wall and Reverse Gravity. To do so, throw the wall horizontally above the enemies, then Action Surge Reverse Gravity. Placement would require that your allies either can't fall through it or aren't in the area of effect. If we take this dip for this purpose, we'd forgo all the other 9th level spells except Wall and Wish, though we could be on the lookout for the others in scroll form.

    • @DndUnoptimized
      @DndUnoptimized  8 місяців тому +2

      Yikes! All that dice manipulation will be a hard control to calculate. I'll have to think hard on how to calculate a score for portent.
      Thanks for the suggestion, it's certainly a strong control build. Double prismatic wall through reverse gravity is an insane trick that I've always wanted to see happen.

    • @supersmily5811
      @supersmily5811 8 місяців тому +1

      @@DndUnoptimized Thank you! Yeah, I pulled that one in particular because I noticed your current systems, while thorough, don't account for dice manipulation at all, and want to see how you'd deal with it. Good luck! :}

  • @cascadianone
    @cascadianone 8 місяців тому +1

    Another banger of a video, please keep them coming. I'm going to go recommend this video on some D&D optimization Discords until you have a more fitting and appropriately massive subscriber count. Would love to see your analysis of some Treantmonk builds, I would request the "God Wizard" for one. Cheers!

    • @DndUnoptimized
      @DndUnoptimized  8 місяців тому +1

      Well thanks! I always appreciate the kind words to keep me going! Hopefully there are more people that would be interested in this.
      I actually deliberated between this build and the Treantmonk God Wizard. I'll have to go back and watch it again, it's been a long time now, but I recall this build having a lot more defined actions in combat, which helps me figure out the correct numbers.
      I'll definitely take a look to see if I can do a gold Treantmonk build though. Maybe something like the eternal cockroach might be fun and mix things up since it's a tank build.

  • @jamestaylor3805
    @jamestaylor3805 7 місяців тому +1

    For a fear control build it should include Undead Warlock, and the Menacing feat, as well as Hunter 3 for Horde Breaker(an extra attack most turns). The Form of Dread offers one fear effect per turn and also gives a bonus to Intimidation making menacing more succesful, at level 4 you are triggering 2 fear effects every turn. If tunnel fighter is available take it and all the sentinel polearm mastery sorta shit you can and replace every attack of opportunity with a Menacing effect. Would highly suggest a bugbear for the exta reach if the Tunnel Fighter option is available to you.
    From here you just need a Returning Weapon type Spear(common infusion should be easy to acquire) that has lightning damage. This can be acheived with a 2 level dip in Artificer and a 1 level dip in Bloodhunter. Close Quarters Shooter is very beneficial for the throw spear.
    Now you are at 3 spear(melee or thrown) attack basically every turn, fear effect on one and replacing the one attack with menacing, and more if tunnel fighter is triggered. Thats only level 7...

    • @jamestaylor3805
      @jamestaylor3805 7 місяців тому

      Dragonborn
      6 Tempest (thunderbolt strike)
      5 Ascendant Dragon(Extra Attack, Martial Arts unarmed attack, flury of blows)
      2 Artificer(Returning Weapon +1)
      3 Hunter(Horde Breaker, Fighting Style)
      2 BloodHunter(+1d4 Lightning on weapon, Curse of Exposure, fighting style 2)
      1 Undead Warlock(form of dread)
      1 Fighter(for fighting style 3)
      Tunnel Fighter, Close Quarters Shooter, Archery...
      Menacing, Polearm Mastery, Spear Master, Sentinel, Warcaster
      4+ attacks per turn, 2+ fear effects per turn, fear on all Tunnel Fighter attacks, all hits do lightning damage and all lightning damages causes fall damage and prone condition. 2x lightning breath weapons and access to lightning spells, sheild, sheild of faith and clerical healing spells.

    • @jamestaylor3805
      @jamestaylor3805 7 місяців тому

      So is a 7 class build obscene? All it needs tho to be succesful is a high dex to ensure attacks hit and profeciency in Intimidation so Menacing will provide expertise... all the other multiclass stats can sit at 13 or so.

    • @DndUnoptimized
      @DndUnoptimized  7 місяців тому

      Sounds like a lot of fun! 7 classes does seem like a lot, even to me lol. I don't know that every DM will interpret away from you as up, but maybe they will, and in that case, attacks with a prone condition are pretty great

  • @jdrt10
    @jdrt10 8 місяців тому +3

    I think its worth the 2% dpr for over 100 cpr holy molly

    • @DndUnoptimized
      @DndUnoptimized  8 місяців тому +1

      Someone on the team definitely needs to dish out the damage, but man oh man is this build great at controlling.

  • @TheKilogram1000
    @TheKilogram1000 8 місяців тому +1

    Hey! It would be interesting for you to do this kind of calculation on Bilbron's DaoLockStone. It faired pretty well on CMCC Build's gauntlet, and has seemed pretty powerful at most levels. It's just a straight daolock.

    • @DndUnoptimized
      @DndUnoptimized  8 місяців тому

      Thanks for the suggestion! I'll write it down for a future video if people are interested more in build analysis like this. I enjoy Bilbron's stuff I think he makes solid builds.

  • @BLynn
    @BLynn 6 місяців тому

    @6:52 My brain stalled for a moment because you said Telepathic, but described Telekinetic, I had to rewind to make sure I just didn't mishear it because I was doing something else at the same time, but you actually did say Telepathic. I harass Colby once in a while too, so no worries.

  • @Oliver-v1j
    @Oliver-v1j 7 місяців тому +1

    I think "effect ends if taking damage" is too high with 25%, because it should be the chance of taking damage *between* your turn and it's; which would be roughly 1/2 of the chance of being hit at all in a round (which 25% seems reasonable for).

    • @DndUnoptimized
      @DndUnoptimized  7 місяців тому +2

      Yea, I see what you mean in this instance because you could attempt to re-establish hypnotic gaze after their turn.
      As encounters continue, there are less and less enemies to target, so you've gotta take them out eventually. Maybe 25% is too high at the beginning of the encounter and too low at the end of the encounter?

    • @Oliver-v1j
      @Oliver-v1j 7 місяців тому +1

      @@DndUnoptimized Really good point! Yeah that's the trouble with overanalyzing heuristics like this haha. Could debate 100 nuances forever but at some point you just need to pick a number

  • @srmillard
    @srmillard 8 місяців тому

    brilliant

  • @davidgreenwood7797
    @davidgreenwood7797 8 місяців тому

    This was neat, never seen control quantified. You should add a “utility” vector. Or a full pillars of play metric like the dungeon dudes have qualitative considerations for classes.

    • @DndUnoptimized
      @DndUnoptimized  8 місяців тому +2

      Thanks! So I've thought about utility and mobility before. I didn't do utility because I haven't thought of any good way of analyzing it, and I didn't do mobility because I think it's easy to determine what good mobility is at a glance so it doesn't give much.
      Also... It's already so much work to run these calculations. Not sure how much strange number crunching the people want haha.

  • @jamestaylor3805
    @jamestaylor3805 7 місяців тому

    Level 6 Tempest Cleric Thunderbolt Strike feat... can be used to push opponent up(which is away from you), thus falling prone. Add this to an Ascendent Dragon monk and Close Quarters Shooter, Archery, and Spear Master. Do this with a dragonborn and you have 2 multi use AoE attacks and over 4 attacks per turn on average, and every bit of damage causes a prone effect to anyone hurt.
    Hunter 3 for Horder Breaker(an extra attack most turns) is another enemy on the floor most turns.

    • @jamestaylor3805
      @jamestaylor3805 7 місяців тому

      Add the Menacing feat to replace one attack a turn with a fear control effect. The Draconic Presence from monk lets you auto success one of these Menacing attacks per day.

    • @jamestaylor3805
      @jamestaylor3805 7 місяців тому

      Each of the two breath weapons say that they can replace an individual attack amongst a multi attack action... so you can do two breath weapon attacks in the same action.

    • @jamestaylor3805
      @jamestaylor3805 7 місяців тому

      And it's still a tempest cleric with spells like Thunderwave and Call Thunder

    • @DndUnoptimized
      @DndUnoptimized  7 місяців тому

      I don't think I quite get the build, and it seems to have a lot of UA in there. Are you using unarmed strikes for lightning damage, or using ranged attacks? Why spear master?

    • @jamestaylor3805
      @jamestaylor3805 7 місяців тому

      @@DndUnoptimized both attacks. Unarmed only reach 5 feet, thrown spear reaches 60 and does more damage but are less numerous. It will be a mixed bag of attacks to ensure you can get the most attacks out of a turn. Hunter's Horde Breaker requires you to attack a pair of adjacent enemies(thrown spear really helps here making sure you can reach such a pair), but flury of blows is unarmed so you need to be close to a target too. Best to run up on the big guy, throw spears around him at the clustered little guys and then punch the big guy at the end.

  • @remogok5527
    @remogok5527 6 місяців тому

    It would be nice to see durability calculations for some characters too! And limitations of the model that is used for these calculations.
    I once created a “really beefy tank” for a 20lvl oneshot that fell to 0 hp in 4 rounds. Unexpected psy damage every turn was really not what I was waiting for. It showed me that there might be some week points you’d better understand when building a character

    • @DndUnoptimized
      @DndUnoptimized  5 місяців тому

      I do durability calculations in my builds, it is based on the number of turns you can last if every enemy in a deadly encounter focused solely on you. But like you say, there are so many limitations to these kind of white room analyses.
      I take resistances into account but at the end of the day running these numbers can only go so far since enemies and campaign and DM style change so much from table to table. There are a lot of things that can help your survivability which cannot be put into a number, like play style, finding cover, using defensive spells and positioning to max effect, movement, teamwork, etc. Making any assumptions about those kind of things end up making the numbers really hard to follow and kind of meaningless.
      Still, I think covering AC, Dex saves, and Con saves and damage resistances can give a reasonable approximation that people can understand.

  • @supersmily5811
    @supersmily5811 8 місяців тому +1

    I find it funny that deafened has 0 points in your system. Makes sense.

    • @DndUnoptimized
      @DndUnoptimized  8 місяців тому +2

      It really does virtually nothing worthwhile. I might change it a bit on my next update to CPR, because it theoretically CAN do something, so maybe I should be more generous there.

    • @TheMoisku
      @TheMoisku 8 місяців тому

      Well, in theory it might affect enemy's ability to coordinate with it's comrades or ability percieve danger. Not hearing an order to retreat nor being able to react to the pc yelling to anothet to get out of the boat because water fall is approaching. Pretty far fetched, but it's there.

    • @supersmily5811
      @supersmily5811 8 місяців тому

      @@TheMoisku You're right, but with the rules he's set up, that is situational and harder to quantify.

  • @jinxtheunluckypony
    @jinxtheunluckypony 6 місяців тому +1

    The bard levels are honestly dead in this build. Unsettling Words isn’t anywhere near good enough to justify losing 5 whole levels of Wizard spell progression.

    • @DndUnoptimized
      @DndUnoptimized  6 місяців тому +1

      I've wondered the same thing. I guess the major control spells have been acquired at that point, so he just wants to make them more likely to stick, but it sucks to lose such good high level wizard spells.

  • @DelvinCockroft
    @DelvinCockroft 8 місяців тому

    I have one issue with this. This build provides a way to AVOID a fight almost 100% of the time, but not a way to guarantee the enemy can't fight back almost 100% of the time, since most of the abilities and spells can be ended, resisted, or immune. Taking a different approach, where you try to consistently tie up 2 or more enemies per turn so that your teammates are always on the offensive, how much CPR could someone do? And I am asking from the perspective of sustainability. Like multiple fights per long rest. (we could refer to this as a sustainable offensive control build) Secondarily, what's the most sustainable offensive control build someone could produce with just 10 levels available? (flexibility would be nice too)
    For Reference: I am currently playing a campaign where i am an Eladrin Artillerist Artificer with a familiar. My weapon is a Net.
    That way I can restrain someone with my net with my action, and then use my bonus action to force cannon push them with my eldritch cannon. Then i have my familiar set traps for them to be pushed into, Like a hunting trap (second restrain), or ball bearings (potential prone) or caltrops (potential lost movement)

    • @DndUnoptimized
      @DndUnoptimized  8 місяців тому

      Perhaps when it comes to mass suggestion it would be avoiding a fight, but all the other big control spells are definitely continuing the fight while locking down some enemies. Things like wall of force will remove enemies from the field, but eventually your teammates will fight them.
      As for sustainability, yea, they can't do the big spells all day, but hypnotic gaze and telekinesis can be done all day, daunting roar is PB times a day which isn't too bad.
      Net builds can be fun for sure and theoretically infinitely sustainable if you can assume you carry infinite nets with you all the time. I really like the idea of planting traps with your familiar and then pushing them into it. I might steal that idea! Sounds like it's a fun build, and even though the amount of control is way less, it ends up being able to do it pretty much all day.
      I'd have to make my own build for how much control I could do without expending resources, but it's an interesting idea, I'll put it down.