(Sorry for the long comment, but there's plenty stuff that I wanted to add to this conversation haha) The main thing with shmups in my opinion is that you have to force yourself to play, which is something the average gamer isn't used to and "doesn't have time to do" considering that your average gamer won't be spending 500 hours on Ketsui when he can easily beat 20 games in that same amount of time. On the other hand, the general public deems a game to be over when they see the final credits, which is why so many people just credit feed till the end of a shmup and consider it done. As such, as much as shmups are replayable as hell we've grown to want new stuff and new "content" all the time, meaning that for the common gamer a 45 minute run of a shmup means that the game is already finished. Stuff like roguelites, though, incentivize replayability by adding unlockables and tons of items, while normal roguelikes follow the same "permadeath run" style shmups follow while also having more gameplay possibilities and random situations, meaning more "content". I personally love shmups but it gets hard for me to play a single shmup for hours because I HAVE to challenge myself to get the most fun of it, while most games will instead force ME to complete it instead. Games that really work well for new players and that do well on this are games such as Radiant Silvergun, since the game is already long, meaning a ton of "content" and you can't credit feed at all, although playing the game will unlock you more credits, giving you an incentive to keep playing and make you want to see what comes next in the game, similarly to what roguelikes do. On the other hand, games like classic arcade shmups like Cave games and such do a terrible job at player retention, since the average player will get crushed by the difficulty, credit feed and get to the end credits not feeling accomplished at all and having seen all the "content" the game has to offer (enemies, patterns, etc) while not giving them an incentive to try again and get better at the game. Generally, the average 60 buck game gives you at least 20 hours of gameplay, including menuing and all that stuff (since that is still integral to the gameplay experience) while easily giving you a bunch of side content to dig into AND opening the possibility of replaying the game with player made challenges (nuzlockes, no hit runs, etc). What this means is that, although the skill ceiling and investment ceiling in shmups can be extremely high because of the scoring and difficulty (if you want to get good you'll have to invest way more time than in other genres), they don't have as much content as your average game (you'll be seeing the same stuff over and over). Basically the trade-off is that you get less content but that content is repeatable as hell without you getting bored of it, while other games like your average AAA have more overall content, although less repeatable. Similar games that have content and difficulty are roguelikes like Cataclysm DDA or Nethack, which can be extremelly hard to beat (Nethack) and have a ton of systems and options (Cataclysm DDA), although they are overly complex at times, which turns off most players, this being the main tradeoff. This is why the Souls formula has gained such popularity. Basically you have this 60 to 100 hour experience on your first run (content) which is also extremely replayable while also being flexible enough to let you get creative and challenge yourself (replayability) and has a tough difficulty that gets harder and harder on future runs (difficulty). Still, the games don't have as much content as other really expansive games, aren't as replayable as let's say roguelikes and aren't as difficult as shmups, meaning that souls are a really good jack of all trades, although still a master of none. On a different note, something I've heard lately about Doom Eternal is that it's basically a single player competitive game, and that's exactly the case for shmups such as DOJ and that's the main reason they are so damn replayable, since as long as there are better records to get you'll have hours to play. Still, games like Eternal have around 30 hours of main content that is easily accessible and obligatory to new players, which is something shmups aren't great at, meaning less "content" in the eyes of new players. Finally, the average player isn't accustomed when it comes to paying for content to have to make the best of it (arrange modes, sandbox modes and such) since he usually will run through the content once then say there's nothing left to do. This is especially true in shmups, where arrange modes and extras usually get mistaken as slight alterations of the games since they require the player to milk as much content as possible from them. This also deals with the treatment of extra features in most shmups, such as different ships: even though an experienced player knows just how different each ship can change the game they don't actually feel as different from each others to new players as much as classes in other games, which usually have completely different playstyles. This means that, for new shmup players, a different ship is usually considered "barely a recolor with a different looking shot". I'm sure there are exceptions though, though that isn't the norm as far as I know. All in all this means that, when considering buying a shmup, the average gamer will instantly think: "no way I'm paying 40 dollars for a 40 minute game with a few extra modes, and I'm defo not paying 10-20 bucks for just a different mode that is basically a glorified mod" when in reality they might be getting way more hours of quality content than most other games if they wanted to.
I definitely think you are right on about people being done right when they see the credits sadly, that s why I really like zeroranger's continue system that forces you to learn the game, but also is flexible enough not to be too punishing for new players
@@TheElectricUnderground Yeah, agreed 100%. I personally love when a game gives me a simple challenge, let's say an unlockable when you get to a certain part of the game with one single credit and stuff. Maybe that would be a good thing to add to have more player retention. A really good mechanic that I would love to see is a hint system for new players, where you can go onto the menu and see a quick replay of the section you are playing to see a good route for it (in Cave games this could be extremely good), maybe even a ghost ship similarly to what you mentionned in the video! I think if these three concepts (good continue system, hint system, challenges) were implemented in shmups the community would gain so many new players.
Nice thoughts! appreciated reading this, shmups need a "context" I think, and that context needs explanation to the consumers, once they learn maybe they can appreciate it, but I think even then there is the issue of " what if I just dont like this game enough to get bananas good at it... then what"
@@AKTANEARCADE Yeah, agreed completely. There needs to be a bit more entry level stuff, like in game tutorials and incentives to keep trying. I think that games like Zero Ranger and to a certain extent Undertale are doing that, so I'm really glad, since the more people enjoying shmups the merrier!
@@soraudagawa3022 It doesn't even need to be actual gameplay incentives. Touhou became popular with non-SHMUP fans because of its characters, setting, music, story and aesthetic. (And later on, the memes.) I think giving newcomers something to "cling to" beyond just solid gameplay is key to expanding the genre.
I went full price with ESP Rad.De. and bought it twice for the Switch and PS4. Love this game and it got me really into shmups from being a casual player.
To this day I wonder about this even after doing stuff like buying the soul crushingly expensive Ketsui and Esprade physicals. Sometimes I question spending so much money on games that could potentially just be mobile games. In the end I continue to add to my collection.
I like Aktane's analogy to Underground Hip Hop. It's so true and I love the innovation coming out of the indie shmup scene. In hip hop the wiser mainstream rappers would say "The talent is on the streets" because they recognized big label rappers were putting out what record companies wanted to sell to the masses. The true talent was coming from the kids who were rapping in cyphers behind schools and in front of bodegas. I feel like that's where we're getting the Zero Rangers and Blue Revolvers from right now. I'm not sure I want triple A studios getting involved in STG's again with their fucked up priorities. Great talk guys. I enjoyed this episode.
Great video! The point about making each character a bigger deal in shmups was really interesting. I think the shiki games (with different story segments and completely different shot types for each character) and cotton rock n roll (with completely different shot types and rhythms for each character) come close to what Aktane was thinking of. It would be cool for each character to have their own special stage and music track like in a fighting game though.
Mark, these podcasts are getting really spicy. Picante content here. Definitely have had the hesitation to buy some shmups, but, like most, I’ve tried to take these games for what they were and accept the prices and have had more fun with the genre than a lot of rpgs I tried to like but couldn’t get into. And, you’re both right, the switch was an easy way to get into these games, but your videos were the lens through which I found Esprade and Dan 3.
Mucho picante, I was a little worried about offending people and mark said " look man, you have to tell them how you feel otherwise we dont get the truth, you'll always offend someone... " :)
@@AKTANEARCADE I mean, straight up understanding what you like and offering that opinion on this genre is the reason I sub to this channel. I just started playing these two months ago and am just enjoying all the different folks coming to it. I too am stuck on Esprade
LET EM FLY ALASTAIR! bombs awaaaaaaayyyyyy you should see my clears on my channel, if I dont use EVERY SINGLE BOMB, I dont clear, check out my cave clears for that evidence just forward to the end usually lol its bomb city. bomb central. bombtopia.
Looking forward to the premiere of this video! I've been playing Elden ring since it came out. Oof. Although I actually preferred the shorter games of Dark souls 1, 2 & 3. I'm still slogging through Elden ring but I actually don't want to play it anymore. It's a great game but too big for me. Looking forward to playing shmups again honestly. In terms of pricing I know it's popular to say they should be full price and so on but you can't do that these days unless it's a well established brand that's very sort after with a rabid fan base. R-type can get away with it but otherwise you're looking at a lower price threshold. I don't like prices being tied to game length because a game can be a zillion hours but suck your soul the entire time. Honestly it's a good time to be a shmup fan. You get a lot of very cheap games that don't waste your time. Perfect for adults like me 😅.
On the topic of entry points, Touhou was technically mine too but my love for bullet hells came from a very different spot long before it. Of all things, it was a weird meshing of an MMO and bullet hell and permadeath mechanics in a flash game called Realm of the Mad God. Touhou just happened to be something I saw around the internet that was relatively accessible and would scratch that same itch.
WHen they talk about Dodonpachi and stage 3, it reminds me of mushihimesama where it's the same, 1 is a pushover, a warmup, 2 is still relaxed, but watch out, 3 = now, the test! And then.......... once you passed the test, the game is like "ok, you are worthy, now you can relax and enjoy this game!"". And overall, it's a good difficulty curve, not just a boring crescendo!
3A or games that are actually good are just 30$ in my eyes. The only reason for me to get games more than 30$ are the ones that are going for collection.
How old is mark, he has a 5 year old? I’m guessing he’s maybe 36? If he was born in the 80s his view of games is very much based in the arcade times. I can kinda relate. I also have a 5 year old and am 37. When I first started playing games it was in the arcade. I’d drop so many quarters on games. I’ve kinda adapted to the modern sense of games, but I still feel arcade style has value. When it comes to a $60 shmup, I feel it have to be something like Star Fox. So star Fox has about 5 to 6 stages per run, but there are multiple paths. So if a shmup can do something like that where you can still have a short 40min game run but lots of content. Star Fox has unlockable modes and extra content. And star Fox is very score based, with its hit system, plus you can get medals as well. Star Fox is 3D, which boosts its value, but if a shmup could get inspired and pack a bunch of content in its game and still keep its arcade root style you’ll get a 60$ shmup. I kinda rambled, sorry I’m a bit tired, I’m sipping on my coffee rn.
I am 30 years old :-) also absolutely love the idea of including rail shooters in the discussion!! Yeah them being in 3d does feel like it should add value
@@TheElectricUnderground damn mark why am I older than you, am I the gaming uncle in our relationship... fuck Angel - you didnt ramble much at all actually, thanks for engaging in the discussion hahaha
People forget that games are cheap. They didn t increase prices in the Last 20 years, but they cut costs with manuals and boxes, Also the globalization increased the costumers. Price is set by quality, costs, publicity, other extras (special edition, dlc, etc) and a expected profit (honest but not greedy). Do shoot em Ups should bé priced át 60 Dollars? Possíble , but hard, they don t have the same cost as a triple AAA game (GTA v costed at leAst 150 million Dollars ).should a good shoot em up cost 10 Dollars? Absolutely no. When i look to games like sophstar, blue revólver at that price and considering that Steam takes 30%, i dont know how they earn enough money to play the hours of work (that should bé payed até the same level as a programmer, graphic designer, etc) and still have a reasonable profit.
agree AND game dev is so expensive... its really an odd mix, but also game dev tools ARE a lot easier to use nowadays so at least we have that... I hope that more dev tools get into the hands of indie devs and they can make games with less pain but Art and Music will be 2 things that are always ( even in todays society ) SUPER under valued, and while that is a shame it will be the straw that breaks shmups back if they dont continue to make the Art better and evolved and keep sticking to 16 bit art at best
(1 hr 20) ..... Great idea bro but LET US see this "%00gle" Super Server that is going to run that. And for forty bux. Steam can't run That. ... . Have you programmed bro?
I don't have a problem with paying full price for an (arcade) game that lasts 5 minutes. If there is enough incite for me to play it over and over again, as in satisfying gameplay. People who feel cheated because their new game didn't last a gazillion hours aren't really gamers. They are escapists.
I would agree with the escapist comment. It’s why I couldn’t really invest into RPGs as a whole as a kid. Over the last 7 years I’ve played numerous titles including FFX + X2, Last Story, the Dark Souls series, SMT Digital Devil Saga 1, Monster Hunter World, etc. but geeeez the sheer amount of time these games require is not really the spirit of arcade gaming - which is my preference.
Shmups are definitely worth full price to me as I think quality is always more important than "hours of content". What really matters is how good and dense the content actually is because that means I will be more likely to play it again. Then again I don't mind paying full price for a fighting game either, as long as a game is good I don't think it's a problem. On the topic of a game like Elden Ring though, I'm not sure you can actually compare traversal to wasted time unlike in a lot of other games. Exploration and level design are integral parts of some of these games and why I like them so much. If you cut down all the traversal and only kept the fights, I don't think I would enjoy them as much. That would be like taking the exploration out of a Zelda game. But you're right, shmups are a lot more condensed and make for a more intense experience IMO.
yes that's how I feel as well! the "hours of content" is silly because the quality of the game is much more likely to determine how long you play it rather then how much unique padding the game offers. super mario 3 is about 2 hours worth of "content" but I've probably played it over 1k hours at this point ha.
For me, the price I'll go for shmups is like this: >$60 Collectors item/edition of an all time favorite (Futari, deathsmiles) $60 M2 release of legendary games (ketsui, esprade) $50 new high profile shmup I know I'll enjoy (cotton rock and roll) $40-30 collection of good old shmups with good ports and bonuses (Aleste and tiger heli) $25-15 Indie game Guranteed to be a banger (Gunvein, blue revolver)
I only buy games full price physically. If there is no physical then I’m those people who wait for a sale. Very rarely I buy it digitally full price. I did it for eschatos on switch, that’s the last time and only time I got a full price digital game. I think Grandia is the only other full price digital game I bought but that’s an rpgs and with Eshop card birthday gift.
Yeah I agree, I think it s lame when the physical version and the digital version are the same price, they should shave some money off on the digital edition (at full price at least)
Dunkey made a great video on the value/price of games. These days it’s just stupid, you get indie games for $4.99 that have 500 hours worth of gameplay and then you get subpar triple A same old generic 10 hour campaign for $100 It’s funny in the top 5 games with the most hours on my steam list 3 of them are free games, Path of exile, warframe and tf2.
For must shmups players maybe, since they will replay the game more times than elden ring time combined. Most people just coin much shmups though so it's not worth for them, even things like gadgets are basically useless for casuals.
Release Shmup Slam 1 VOD Mark ! :p On a more serious note, very interesting interview. Very entertaining to listen to. The flow of the conversation was great. The question of "how much would you play for a shmup ?" is very interesting. I think I am sitting with Aktane on that one. For a game I have never touched, I can hardly see myself invest more than 40$. And the game needs to absolutely look top tier, with all the extra/quality of life stuff. On the other side, Ketsui on PS4 or Garegga are a little bit biased. Because we know how great these game are, especially if we already put 100h+ in these games. We could even consider buying a PCB if we had the money.
Ha I will release shmup slam 1 when I hit 15k subs as a celebratin XD I def know what you mean about the m2 ports, since they are the cream of the crop. That is going into my point a bit though because price is the most powerful indicator of value we can come up with basically. So if an m2 port isn't $60, I don't really see any way to justify any shmup being $60. On the other hand though, yes the reality is that game prices are falling and shmups are going to be in that group of games that are considered more in the $20 range. So I think if we can see a healthy price spread where indie shmups land in the 10- 20 range and the more premium go for 30-50 I think that would work really well. It's still in the air how much people are willing to pay though, which is interesting.
Juju my man thanks for listening, that is a really good point, those games have been sort of "proven" to be quality right, but the question is also " is that YOUR game" ... wonder how many people play Garegga and maybe think " well this is great but maybe I am more of a DoDonPachi " player, then what do they do with the Garegga at $60, they must kind of need a lower price point to "get in" and then if they love it, maybe PCB or Physical release or DLC or something more to get them to pay the rest of the $60 or even more because theyre SO excited they found THEIR game and are now going to sink 200 hours into it...I guess quality is one thing but player preference has to have a hand in "picking" your shmup right?
Great chat guys. I like the thinking of $40 max for even Shot Triggers. As I left it until too late to import them, I still think I paid reasonably okay for my M2 physical copies... Garegga (about £48) Esprade (£63) Dangun Feveron (£65.50) Ketsui (£84!! - but its well over 100 now)
@@TheElectricUnderground You should have! If I bought a copy from Play Asia right now, after tax and shipping it will take it over £120! ...so 84 aint too bad delivered when I got it.
Jeremy Parish has been around forever. Very knowledgeable about all aspects of gaming. I've enjoyed his work since WAY back in the EGM days. And "are shmups worth full price" is obviously subjective. It is to me no doubt. I can't get into AAA games anymore. I'm over them. But to some, buying a "simple airplane game" at $60 might be too much.
Perspective from a pseudo-beginner here: having continues is super nice for the first few runs of a game, especially if it doesn't offer save states. Sometimes I want to practice a no miss run and sometimes I want to see more of the game; I will do my best to get as far as I can without continuing... but I will definitely continue once I die because I like the gameplay, the music, the artwork, etc. It all depends on the mood I'm in and what seems more fun to me. Credit feeding might seem stinky for players with a lot of shmup experience, but for people still honing their skills, it has its benefits, including being able to see more of the game and enjoying the aesthetic experience the game offers, which definitely has its own value (I decided to 1cc Crimzon, Mushi, and DDP DFK after credit feeding wins; mainly because I liked all the music and stages so much, I realized I wanted to spend more time with them).
credit feeding is AWESOME. I have a WHOLE VIDEO coming up on that on ShmupTopia's channel and my own... seriously its ALL about this topic stay tuned! it should be out this week!
yeah I don't mind credit feeding personally, but I think it runs the risk of having newer people to the genre checking out early, so maybe an open stage select might be a good alternative in combination with a ZR style continue system?
Gradius V had an interesting idea; that by playing you earned continue credits. The continues are permanent. Having limited credits earned per run would add value to your gameplay. Or at least an interesting idea for a separate special mode perhaps!!
I have played shmups with several non-shmup players. Credit feeding ruined the experience each time. Because the person doesn't even have to engage themselves when they know they can just continue right at that spot. If a person can't credit feed through Dark Souls; why can they credit feed Dodonpachi? Just food for thought..
I think their point is on though. There's no real game-provided goal if it just lets you credit feed, and the gulf between being a noob and 1cc is too big
If some dev came along and made something akin to the Streets of Rage 4 of the shmup world then sure, I'd be willing to pay a little extra. If all you're offering me is decent emulation of ancient titles with some nice menus and features that are essentially free byproducts of the emulation process anyways (like save states), then no. Sorry, but why should a shmup get a pass when everything else has to work its ass off for my money.
Dariusburst AC EX+ Cozmic Revelation has Ghost Score, shows the world record holder score progress real time during the run for every single stage. Even Chronicle mode
Wow that game sound crazy! I have cozmic collection and have felt that is a really solid port, just didn't feel motivated to upgrade to revelation yet.
Also, this is the first time I feel like bombing has been discussed and it is clarifying for me why I’m so stuck on certain stages. I have been playing Mushi and Esprade a lot and never bomb. All of a sudden I’m realizing that bombing is a skill that I just don’t have. Lots to think about it here.
I'll add a different comment from the other one that way I may get lucky if you see it. I play shmups on my phone (hell, I play most games on my phone, both through emulation, Stadia and stuff). It's pretty easy to do and you can easily play most games from old snes stuff to games like Ketsui, Cho Ren Sha, Ikaruga and most others big shmups. If you're interested I can easily guide you on it and explain further, but it surprisingly plays pretty good, although a Tate monitor is usually better. Getting a gamepad such as the one I have (PXN 9613) or Xbox Series X is pretty easy and connecting them is just as easy as connecting bluetooth headphones to your phone. Basically you get portability, the latency feels really good (haven't tested it though) and get the same experience as on other platforms while having a Switch sized screen without buying a Switch.
@@TheElectricUnderground It's just as weird to configure than on pc, but it works pretty well, although run ahead won't work on many devices (you get laggy gameplay).
I adore the Switch! I have a PS5 and I dont even touch it. Switch is so convenient, and most games focus on gameplay instead of graphics. This is the right direction imo. The pendulum swung way too heavily into the repetitive Call of Duty type games, only focusing on sharpening existing IP's. Switch is giving newcomers a chance while also providing diversity to the players. Great episode, Aktane is a great guy!
Hey my dude!! Yeah I play my switch a lot as well, much more then I expected. That little bastards keeps getting interesting smaller releases ha. Also I think my PS4 went crazy or I need to switch out my vga converter
The way the steam sale dynamic works for me is this: I recently returned to shmups (played when I was a kid) and I’ve bought something like 20 games now and have a huge backlog. I paid full price for some but I bought the rest on sale because the opportunity was there. Eventually in a year or two I probably would have bought some of them full price. So there’s a fourth profile of gamer like me who’s happy to pay full price but will also build up a backlog on discount when opportunity presents itself.
I think it's a matter of "Upfront Value" vs "Long Term Value". Most humans are wired to prioritize the immediate easy-to-see benefits of a product. While a bloated open world game has less overall value than a polished arcade experience, the consumers will get more out of it in the short term, which is what the general gaming community has been conditioned to seek.
That's a great way of describing it Broken. Yeah up front the shmup may seem less worth the money, but over time they definitely are worth their weight in gold (or yen lol)
Great video guys! For your different takes on games like G-Darius (sticking to the optimal path Vs playing around with every option), another good feature that both of you could enjoy is having Score Attack for every stage with its own leaderboard. That gives the hardcore a reason to grind the "lesser" stages, and the casual a less serious scoring challenge to get into.
Some people have weird standards for value when buying games. I remember I saw this guy on Reddit claiming he wouldn’t buy Sekiro after it was revealed that the file size for the game was like 12 gb. He said he wouldn’t pay full price for such a “small” game. Strange reason to deny yourself one of the best action games ever made. People like that would like to buy their games by the pound rather than by the quality of the meat, I guess.
Look at the prices of almost any SHUMP from a legacy system. They are always some of the most expensive/sought after games. As a game collector, I don’t think twice about paying full price for a SHUMP.
Imagine a "use your bomb, noob!" mode in which you would keep all your bombs even if you die!!! .... You died with a stack of 6 bombs? well, you got 9 now! The game would be like: use those, dammit! - That mode would not count as real 1cc, no replay save, just one of the training modes!
Hey thanks! I actually did an Outzone and Fixeight blind kumite with Shmup Junkie and it was super fun! I'm excited for these games, although I dont really score much and I dont think they are really shmups because they don't auto scroll, but they're super fun. I'll have to go back to them at some point, the sprite work is incredible: ua-cam.com/video/aHxAyxceU_Y/v-deo.html
@@Undermog we need mark to get the TLB stage at least! it is SO good you put so much work into it, and the music to that stage is the perfect "ending" to your game!! I hope he doesnt quit before the star map is complete hahaha we shall see!
People get so crazy about game prices, like an extra $10 is going to cripple them financially. I used to pay $50 for Atari games. They had 1 button. Getting your money’s worth back then was a struggle. I have no problem paying full price for a good shmup. I have no problem paying way more than full price if I have to.
10$ may be nothing for an american, for someone living in the third world it could be the difference between a macdonalds and a high class steak. Stop with price elitism.
@@brunorastafa1429 that’s a pretty ridiculous comment. $60 is fine but $70 isn’t? I would think if you can afford to buy a PS5 or XSX then $10 isn’t a big deal.
If you knew anything about inflation and money conversion you would know how big of a deal those "just 10$" are. Having a console is no fucking excuse too, people still complain about gas price even though they own a car. But well, I guess you already accepted ignorance in your part, gonna find this comment "ridiculous" cause it contradicts what you believe.
@@brunorastafa1429 inflation? If inflation really affected game prices they would have gone up more than 10-20 dollars in the last 30 years. You should probably give up.
This was 3 hours of quality entertainment. Learned a lot and got a lot of new insights. Aktane is so much fun listening to. Subbed to his channel immediately after.
I will gladly pay full price for a game that is excellent. For example, 60 dollars for the m2 garegga is no problem, because it’s an amazing game and that is the best format to play it. I will not pay even 40 dollars though for a new game getting middle of the road to bad reviews, such as sol cresta. The quality of the game should dictate the price point. Another example of this is Metroid Dread. That game cost 60 dollars and is about eight hours long. It’s very lean and has almost no filler, it’s almost all action with great gameplay density. It’s completely worth the price despite its relatively short length. I’m playing Elden ring now and have already put 60 hours in to that game and it is also worth it’s price point too, but neither Elden ring nor Metroid dread are more deserving of their price point than the other, in my opinion. Both are exceptional games creating entirely different gameplay experiences.
You might be the only channel offering critical commentary about video games in 2023 who actually has the requisite brain cells to do so. I dunno what the fuck has gotten into everybody else. All the Dunkey, Nintendolife and ShillUp-type shit makes me feel like I’m going insane.
I think my view is unpopular, but I find my gaming "budget" is limited a lot more by time than money, so I have zero problem putting down $80 on a shmup, fighter, or even puzzle game if I think it looks cool. Elden Ring may have tons of content in theory, but in practice it's one of many games I bought for full price and then played for a few hours before losing interest, while a shmup is so engaging the whole time you're playing that it is easy to keep playing it over and over. I have even decided not to buy many games after reading how long they take to beat and thinking "yeah, never happening." That said, a "ROM on a disc" is objectively worse than the free experience and it's not worth paying much for that. I think you guys are right to identify freeplay as an issue -- when I was a kid I never got into Saturn shmups because freeplay completely removed the tension. Your choice is between credit-feeding, which is mindless, or 1cc, which is so far away it feels impossible. Limited continues would be an easy solution, but I think M2STG releases are state of the art with many intermediate goals before arcade 1cc, like arcade challenge modes, "kizuna" segments, easier arranges, etc. It might be interesting for a new game to present something like arcade challenge as the "main" mode and regular arcade as an ancillary challenge, rather than the other way around. e: Oh yeah, one more thing... I've really soured on the mini console thing, especially with the absurdity of a SECOND mini Genesis. The SBCs on these things can all play each other's games so it's like just an exercise in creating e-waste, and they're locking many games behind them (for instance, can you even buy Batsugun on a modern console? Well you can buy the stupid little fake arcade cabinet with a million frames of lag if you want). With stuff like runahead there's (imo) no excuse for the performance to suck so bad. Yeah that's somewhat performance-intensive, but let them throw a better SBC in there if the one they're using isn't up to the task. Stuff like RPi4 or some Chinese emulator handhelds can handle it now, no reason the official options shouldn't.
Tbh I think that credit feeding ruins shmups, specially for beginners. Sure, you can and probably should bomb and all that, the thing is that if you allow yourself to improve over time and learn and get further and further in the game progressively, you just have things to look for for your first times, and you probably won't even memorize the game as well if you just keep bs-ing the second half of the game.
There are more potential shmup fans playing rhythm games than fighting games. As an outsider I think the crossover the tohou games has is from the fanbase following the characters like vocaloid idols and the emphasis it places on music. It's also probably not a coincidence the genre generally is known for its soundtracks. It's almost like a binary state rhythm game. Stay alive and keep listening/die and the music ends
The problem with Touhou is the most popular touhou games are old and need to be patched or tweaked to get working, and not everyone does that kind of stuff. Although Shmup fans generally are more apt at using computers, Touhou is still confusing to set up at first. Having emulator experience gets your through using Retroarch and other games are plug and play on steam. Also like Touhou 6 and 7 have no mixer for audio so you burst your eadrums opening it.
Great show! In the 80s/90s I think difficulty was what made a game worth the money...you paid 50 bucks for a game and the devs expected it to take maybe 20+ hours for an average gamer to beat it. So it was like $2.50 per hour of game.
The only RPG I've played that I can consider that have an arranged mode would be Etrian Odyssey 2 Untold. Etrian Odyssey is always about picking your set of party and trying to explore the hidden depths the Yggdrasil labyrinth. For arranged version they got "Story Mode", it still got the same lore but instead of choosing a specific class party member, you will play with a pre-made party and them having their own personalities and stories. The story mode also an exclusive class so that made it more unique. I think arranged mode is possible for rpg aswell...... Btw, I do wish Fire Emblem gba gets an arranged mode where it doesnt have tutorials and also get a different mission objectives and enemy placement just to spice things up... Seriously, strategy rpg CAN actually benefit from arranged mode treatment.
30:39 training mode.... I feel like I am the only one who is having a hard and awkward time with training mode. Whenever I do a training mode on some stages, I be like "why the hell I didnt just do this on arcade or conquest mode!!". 38:00 the special editions should be something like Elemental Gearbolt collector edition where you get a briefcase and a light gun needs to be a thing.
I feel the same thing btw, thats why I dont use training modes much, if at all, I just go play the game haha!! lol briefcase and lightgun is funny, I'd definitely appreciate artbooks and music cds and stuff like that more though :) haha
Hey I finally got done with this whole 2 and half at work today. Great show. Awesome idea about ghosting in shmups. Also don't know if anyone mentioned but Jeremy parish is like the co developer of the flip grip. He's also a damn good video game historian. He has a chanel on UA-cam and also his podcast which was mentioned. But he's a real og. He used to write for 1up and also is part of "limited run" or one of those companies not sure which. Great podcast!
Oh that's awesome! I'm glad you tuned in all the way to the end, I love when that happens :-) Yeah that guy sounds pretty awesome! For some reason I haven't come across his work before but it sounds interesting!
A good shmup is worth ONE BILLION DOLL HAIRS! But yeah, value is tied on the sell side to market demand (if you can't sell many, you need larger margins on each unit), and on the buy side the intrinsic value & scarcity of the experience.
As a dev, i would put my shmup online, and go for a degressive price plan, like "hey, i made this shmup with love, i value it, i need to eat, it's FIFTY BUCKS.... But, if i sell X copies, it will go down to 40, and then 30 and then .... and so on, until it's a 5$ game or i even give copies away because i simply can survive and develop and i'm happy!
I love the Esprade challenges. Irori's room is great too. It made me a better player. The trophies were a good reward and a drive to push forward. I got the plat, but didn't get a 1cc till much later on. Worth every penny. I'd say all the M2 PS4 releases are all excellent value at day one retail prices.
@@TheElectricUnderground I can't read Japanese either lol. It's really easy to get what's going on though. You earn currency by doing the challenges, then play a gatcha machine to furnish the characters rooms. Its a bit crazy lol
A ghost mode might be too messy (the shots already destroy the screen on dodonpachi so...) but the idea is fantastic, i would just show (optionally) the routes, like a white line that draws and shows how a top player moves on that stage, you figure out the shots to keep up! (also maybe a blink to indicate when he bombs maybe) I mean, something light but helpful to learn routes!
If the game and the port are good (no excesive input lag, good presentation and some extras like extra dificulty levels or game modes) the game can be full price. Of curse, I prefer to pay less, but I didn't have any problems paying 60+ eur for esp.ra.de psi for switch. Shmups don't need to be long: they have to be fun and replayable.
Is a Shmup Worth Full Price of $60? Sure, if you buy ZeroRanger six times... otherwise no. Especially when it's a lazy, barebones port like Cotton Reboot that's priced at hilarious 45$ and surprise surprise, no one's buying it (not on Steam at least).
@@soratheorangejuicemascot5809 Just compare it to something like Sophstar, which is a first project of a new indie studio and has a lot of settings, customization options and additional modes/features (and costs quarter of CR's price). While Success Corporation made around 50 games across 4 decades yet CR seems amateurish in comparison.
These podcasts are absolute godsends for when im grinding SoR 2 hardest runs and practicing ddp routes. Got tired of normie pods a long time ago(that whole LA podcast scene).
Shumps, esp today shouldn't be more than £15 max. They are now easy to make by developers and not as much effort is needed when compared to other games.
@@sudarshangopinathan5904 been out for a long time but it is japan only iirc Gothic Mahou Otome is the name as far as I remember off the top of my head
i'm new to bullet-hell games and bought Mushihimesama full-price on switch £17 or so I think it was (about 20$) on the eshop. Have to say I am quite disappointed and feel it was a waste of money - the score board doesn't function (can't compete with other players) The infinite continues are a really bad idea, too - there is basically no "game" or challenge as such, since the scores are not saved and I can just mindlessly complete the game without trying thanks to the continues that never run out. The options don't save (on mine at least) I set the zoom to 113% and it resets each time I play back to 100%. I should have bought Crimzon Clover instead (although it's more expensive) as I heard the score board actually works on that game.
I went down the rabbit hole of original hardware with OSSC and CRTs. The thought was as an adult beginner of this genre I thought to at least 2 CC some Genesis, Saturn, Dreamcast, Neo Geo CD games to build up my skills and then start working the indie market on steam. I grew up playing sonic and Mario but then fighting games and JRPGs took over. Now that I'm older, a father, my gaming experience and time frame has dramatically shifted. Shmups fill that need without the 40 hour story binges with the exception of MGS. I still need more PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE! Good talk.
Yes exactly! Shmups are a genre that cut out all the filler and get right to the gameplay! I have a vid about this actually! ua-cam.com/video/9Ew5hEMSzEw/v-deo.html
Aktane really earned my follow by showing that, unlike the majority of the invested Shmup niche, he's in-touch with the broader gaming landscape and better understands where the genre falls short. After all, the arcade holdovers are what made the genre fade into obscurity and resulted in the very pricing/value conundrum discussed here. The reason ZeroRanger deserved to be repeatedly brought up as a great springboard Shmup is because it did MANY things differently and was NOT designed as an arcade game. It offered value to more than just the niche. Now, the bigger names in the genre need to start doing the same and evolve theor game design decades beyond their arcade traditions, in order for the genre to evolve and claw its way out of the pit of obscurity. I find it funny how quiet Mark got when Aktane mentioned the Euro element of upgrading/levelling as a positive, and the audience during the premiere immediately crapped on EuroShmups. But he's right. The process of in-game progression, and arcade-stuck genres like Shmups and Fighting Games lacking that, are big factors that hold them back. In the post-arcade era, most personality types need some sort of tangible noticeable extrinsic reward and in-game progression to stay motivated. If a $20-40 Shmup doesn't provide much other than intrinsic reward, it won't be worth the price to most people and they'll go play a game that does. And the current industry offers Free-To-play games with higher production value on top of better extrinsic rewards. It's just like with fighting games. Shmup devs need to realize that the wants of the currently established niche audience are what prevent the genre from truly growing or evolving. The arcade era is long gone, and games still designed like they're arcade games are relegated to niche budget titles. Can't change that. Only can adapt or become irrelevant, which Shmups kinda already have. Just as Guilty Gear Strive became the series' entry with both the highest sales AND highest player retention by sticking to their guns despite the hate of the veteran niche (and with Project L looking to shake up the genre further), the most reconizeable Shmups need to do the same. Problem is, the genre has been obscure for so long that there aren't many Shmup IPs that had widespread name recognition. Just R-Type, Raiden, and Darius, really. And the newest R-Type didn't do very well critically nor comercially. I'd love to see both fighters and shmups rise in unpr3cedented ways, but that's simply not possible without a lot of changes, So what'll it be? Selfishly watch the you love stay budget and obscure, but at least it's yours alone? Or encourage devs to do what's best for the genre, even if that means it'll lose some elements that made you love it? With the current state of the genre, I don't see any other way forward.
thanks for this response and also for engaging in the discussion! I think there's stuff that'll stay niche and underground and thats okay but yeah I agree if we wanna see like big big attention towards the genre, there's also THAT way forward too. I think the niche players might be a bit annoyed at that stuff but you got a game like natsuki chronicles which has the euro story mode ( what I played ) and the arcade mode ( what others played) and as long as that arcade mode isnt cobbled together trash, you can have both your high scorers have fun, and your long term gamers enjoy too ... like Tekken Treasure Battle, or Soul Calibur (dreamcast) mission mode!
@@AKTANEARCADE Having had extensive experience with the FGC, I can attest that the hardcore niche of an arcade-stuck genre often do not have the ability to look past their own narrow perspectives and HATE any changes that are necessary for growth. But if speedtunning and the Smash competitive communities show anything, it's that people can find ways to make something competitive by reducing elements of random. They don't need the core of the game to cater to them. Besodes, catering primarily to the competitive (ALWAYS the minority of any audience) is just a poor decision every time.
Yeah I'm not a fan of euroshmup design ha, I was thinking something like "let's hear what he has to say, but i'm not sure where this is going" ha. Personally I would not like to see shmups go into a euroshmup rpg roguelike direction as I would probably lose complete interest in the genre. So for me it's sometime a question of keeping what makes shmups special and awesome - their unique level and game design - while opening up the genre in other aspects like continue systems and such. But I will admit if we're talking about completely changing the core of how the genre works by going in the euroshmup direction, I probably would lose interest in the genre overall and just play beat em ups or something ha
@@TheElectricUnderground yeah I totally am not advocating for the lack of bespoke level design, which I think is important in shmups. I just want to see more levels and have more characters or ways in which to play them, and more bosses, just want more! more music! haha but all that needs to come wrapped in a NEW structure for the game, and different players can pick arcade mode or story mode or versus mode or whatever to have their way.
@@AKTANEARCADE The problem I see is that, (just like with fighting games) the arcade nature of Shmup game design prevents them from being profitable enough. Which, in turn, prevents them from having a large budget. Which, in turn, makes a truly impressive amount of content simply unfeasible. And that won't change unless elements of the core arcade game design change. But the genre has been such an insular niche for so long that any of the necessary changes would alienate most of the niche audience. The only people still buying and playing Shmups. Also, the genre has been obscure for so long that the growth potential is very limited without drastic changes. It's a lose-lose. Loyalty or growth. Can't have both. No matter what, the genre alienates a sizeable group. It's just that, currently, the genre is unappealing to far more people than it actually does appeal to. That's the bed made by devs who failed to gradually and incrementally evolve the genre over time, ever since the arcade era died and that style of game design became increasingly irrelevant.
and you would HAVE to have some kind of anti cheat. Yeah bro no worries I do not think a single Company is going to steal that idea no hahahahahahahaha. It is very, very, very difficult to do what you are wishing.
I'm just happy games like ketsui and battle garegga aren't delisted yet and I can still pick them up today. I did have to make a US psn account for it though, which is a pity.
(Sorry for the long comment, but there's plenty stuff that I wanted to add to this conversation haha)
The main thing with shmups in my opinion is that you have to force yourself to play, which is something the average gamer isn't used to and "doesn't have time to do" considering that your average gamer won't be spending 500 hours on Ketsui when he can easily beat 20 games in that same amount of time.
On the other hand, the general public deems a game to be over when they see the final credits, which is why so many people just credit feed till the end of a shmup and consider it done. As such, as much as shmups are replayable as hell we've grown to want new stuff and new "content" all the time, meaning that for the common gamer a 45 minute run of a shmup means that the game is already finished. Stuff like roguelites, though, incentivize replayability by adding unlockables and tons of items, while normal roguelikes follow the same "permadeath run" style shmups follow while also having more gameplay possibilities and random situations, meaning more "content". I personally love shmups but it gets hard for me to play a single shmup for hours because I HAVE to challenge myself to get the most fun of it, while most games will instead force ME to complete it instead. Games that really work well for new players and that do well on this are games such as Radiant Silvergun, since the game is already long, meaning a ton of "content" and you can't credit feed at all, although playing the game will unlock you more credits, giving you an incentive to keep playing and make you want to see what comes next in the game, similarly to what roguelikes do.
On the other hand, games like classic arcade shmups like Cave games and such do a terrible job at player retention, since the average player will get crushed by the difficulty, credit feed and get to the end credits not feeling accomplished at all and having seen all the "content" the game has to offer (enemies, patterns, etc) while not giving them an incentive to try again and get better at the game.
Generally, the average 60 buck game gives you at least 20 hours of gameplay, including menuing and all that stuff (since that is still integral to the gameplay experience) while easily giving you a bunch of side content to dig into AND opening the possibility of replaying the game with player made challenges (nuzlockes, no hit runs, etc).
What this means is that, although the skill ceiling and investment ceiling in shmups can be extremely high because of the scoring and difficulty (if you want to get good you'll have to invest way more time than in other genres), they don't have as much content as your average game (you'll be seeing the same stuff over and over). Basically the trade-off is that you get less content but that content is repeatable as hell without you getting bored of it, while other games like your average AAA have more overall content, although less repeatable.
Similar games that have content and difficulty are roguelikes like Cataclysm DDA or Nethack, which can be extremelly hard to beat (Nethack) and have a ton of systems and options (Cataclysm DDA), although they are overly complex at times, which turns off most players, this being the main tradeoff. This is why the Souls formula has gained such popularity. Basically you have this 60 to 100 hour experience on your first run (content) which is also extremely replayable while also being flexible enough to let you get creative and challenge yourself (replayability) and has a tough difficulty that gets harder and harder on future runs (difficulty). Still, the games don't have as much content as other really expansive games, aren't as replayable as let's say roguelikes and aren't as difficult as shmups, meaning that souls are a really good jack of all trades, although still a master of none.
On a different note, something I've heard lately about Doom Eternal is that it's basically a single player competitive game, and that's exactly the case for shmups such as DOJ and that's the main reason they are so damn replayable, since as long as there are better records to get you'll have hours to play. Still, games like Eternal have around 30 hours of main content that is easily accessible and obligatory to new players, which is something shmups aren't great at, meaning less "content" in the eyes of new players.
Finally, the average player isn't accustomed when it comes to paying for content to have to make the best of it (arrange modes, sandbox modes and such) since he usually will run through the content once then say there's nothing left to do. This is especially true in shmups, where arrange modes and extras usually get mistaken as slight alterations of the games since they require the player to milk as much content as possible from them.
This also deals with the treatment of extra features in most shmups, such as different ships: even though an experienced player knows just how different each ship can change the game they don't actually feel as different from each others to new players as much as classes in other games, which usually have completely different playstyles. This means that, for new shmup players, a different ship is usually considered "barely a recolor with a different looking shot". I'm sure there are exceptions though, though that isn't the norm as far as I know.
All in all this means that, when considering buying a shmup, the average gamer will instantly think: "no way I'm paying 40 dollars for a 40 minute game with a few extra modes, and I'm defo not paying 10-20 bucks for just a different mode that is basically a glorified mod" when in reality they might be getting way more hours of quality content than most other games if they wanted to.
I definitely think you are right on about people being done right when they see the credits sadly, that s why I really like zeroranger's continue system that forces you to learn the game, but also is flexible enough not to be too punishing for new players
@@TheElectricUnderground Yeah, agreed 100%. I personally love when a game gives me a simple challenge, let's say an unlockable when you get to a certain part of the game with one single credit and stuff. Maybe that would be a good thing to add to have more player retention.
A really good mechanic that I would love to see is a hint system for new players, where you can go onto the menu and see a quick replay of the section you are playing to see a good route for it (in Cave games this could be extremely good), maybe even a ghost ship similarly to what you mentionned in the video!
I think if these three concepts (good continue system, hint system, challenges) were implemented in shmups the community would gain so many new players.
Nice thoughts! appreciated reading this, shmups need a "context" I think, and that context needs explanation to the consumers, once they learn maybe they can appreciate it, but I think even then there is the issue of " what if I just dont like this game enough to get bananas good at it... then what"
@@AKTANEARCADE Yeah, agreed completely. There needs to be a bit more entry level stuff, like in game tutorials and incentives to keep trying. I think that games like Zero Ranger and to a certain extent Undertale are doing that, so I'm really glad, since the more people enjoying shmups the merrier!
@@soraudagawa3022 It doesn't even need to be actual gameplay incentives.
Touhou became popular with non-SHMUP fans because of its characters, setting, music, story and aesthetic. (And later on, the memes.)
I think giving newcomers something to "cling to" beyond just solid gameplay is key to expanding the genre.
I went full price with ESP Rad.De. and bought it twice for the Switch and PS4. Love this game and it got me really into shmups from being a casual player.
That s great! Esp ra de is a fav of mine as well, I have it on switch and PS4 too
To this day I wonder about this even after doing stuff like buying the soul crushingly expensive Ketsui and Esprade physicals. Sometimes I question spending so much money on games that could potentially just be mobile games. In the end I continue to add to my collection.
Yeah I know what you mean, luckily they do run really well on PS4 and have a lot of cool extras :-)
I like Aktane's analogy to Underground Hip Hop. It's so true and I love the innovation coming out of the indie shmup scene. In hip hop the wiser mainstream rappers would say "The talent is on the streets" because they recognized big label rappers were putting out what record companies wanted to sell to the masses. The true talent was coming from the kids who were rapping in cyphers behind schools and in front of bodegas. I feel like that's where we're getting the Zero Rangers and Blue Revolvers from right now. I'm not sure I want triple A studios getting involved in STG's again with their fucked up priorities. Great talk guys. I enjoyed this episode.
Great video! The point about making each character a bigger deal in shmups was really interesting. I think the shiki games (with different story segments and completely different shot types for each character) and cotton rock n roll (with completely different shot types and rhythms for each character) come close to what Aktane was thinking of. It would be cool for each character to have their own special stage and music track like in a fighting game though.
Absolutely, I really like the idea of having character specific ost, that would be really awesome honestly
Mark, these podcasts are getting really spicy. Picante content here. Definitely have had the hesitation to buy some shmups, but, like most, I’ve tried to take these games for what they were and accept the prices and have had more fun with the genre than a lot of rpgs I tried to like but couldn’t get into. And, you’re both right, the switch was an easy way to get into these games, but your videos were the lens through which I found Esprade and Dan 3.
Mucho picante, I was a little worried about offending people and mark said " look man, you have to tell them how you feel otherwise we dont get the truth, you'll always offend someone... " :)
@@AKTANEARCADE I mean, straight up understanding what you like and offering that opinion on this genre is the reason I sub to this channel. I just started playing these two months ago and am just enjoying all the different folks coming to it. I too am stuck on Esprade
I'm really glad to hear that! Yes I like to bring the heat on the channel every so often, the ep was a ton of fun :-)
Interesting discussion, thanks. I almost never bomb, but I should change that now! Going to try Zero Ranger now too.
LET EM FLY ALASTAIR! bombs awaaaaaaayyyyyy you should see my clears on my channel, if I dont use EVERY SINGLE BOMB, I dont clear, check out my cave clears for that evidence just forward to the end usually lol its bomb city. bomb central. bombtopia.
Yes I am going to do a how to shmup vid on bomb meta soon!
Looking forward to the premiere of this video!
I've been playing Elden ring since it came out. Oof. Although I actually preferred the shorter games of Dark souls 1, 2 & 3. I'm still slogging through Elden ring but I actually don't want to play it anymore. It's a great game but too big for me.
Looking forward to playing shmups again honestly. In terms of pricing I know it's popular to say they should be full price and so on but you can't do that these days unless it's a well established brand that's very sort after with a rabid fan base. R-type can get away with it but otherwise you're looking at a lower price threshold.
I don't like prices being tied to game length because a game can be a zillion hours but suck your soul the entire time.
Honestly it's a good time to be a shmup fan. You get a lot of very cheap games that don't waste your time. Perfect for adults like me 😅.
Yes making game length determine value is a very bad idea I think, encourages bloat
@@TheElectricUnderground Absolutely what I think. It's the gaming community at large that commends this though which I think is a big mistake.
On the topic of entry points, Touhou was technically mine too but my love for bullet hells came from a very different spot long before it. Of all things, it was a weird meshing of an MMO and bullet hell and permadeath mechanics in a flash game called Realm of the Mad God. Touhou just happened to be something I saw around the internet that was relatively accessible and would scratch that same itch.
WHen they talk about Dodonpachi and stage 3, it reminds me of mushihimesama where it's the same, 1 is a pushover, a warmup, 2 is still relaxed, but watch out, 3 = now, the test! And then.......... once you passed the test, the game is like "ok, you are worthy, now you can relax and enjoy this game!"". And overall, it's a good difficulty curve, not just a boring crescendo!
I just paid full.price for DariusBurst Chronicles Saviour. And the Varth and Side Arms DLC
3A or games that are actually good are just 30$ in my eyes. The only reason for me to get games more than 30$ are the ones that are going for collection.
Yeah I agree, I usually wait for the bigger games to go on sale too
How old is mark, he has a 5 year old? I’m guessing he’s maybe 36? If he was born in the 80s his view of games is very much based in the arcade times. I can kinda relate. I also have a 5 year old and am 37. When I first started playing games it was in the arcade. I’d drop so many quarters on games.
I’ve kinda adapted to the modern sense of games, but I still feel arcade style has value. When it comes to a $60 shmup, I feel it have to be something like Star Fox. So star Fox has about 5 to 6 stages per run, but there are multiple paths. So if a shmup can do something like that where you can still have a short 40min game run but lots of content. Star Fox has unlockable modes and extra content. And star Fox is very score based, with its hit system, plus you can get medals as well.
Star Fox is 3D, which boosts its value, but if a shmup could get inspired and pack a bunch of content in its game and still keep its arcade root style you’ll get a 60$ shmup.
I kinda rambled, sorry I’m a bit tired, I’m sipping on my coffee rn.
I am 30 years old :-) also absolutely love the idea of including rail shooters in the discussion!! Yeah them being in 3d does feel like it should add value
@@TheElectricUnderground damn mark why am I older than you, am I the gaming uncle in our relationship... fuck
Angel - you didnt ramble much at all actually, thanks for engaging in the discussion hahaha
Mark told me about Dodunpachi.
I THINK I want to start with "Truxton II", first, though? Because it's Arcade exclusive anyway? At least if you do not live in Japan?
Release SHMUP SLAM 1! Those vids are crucial for getting strats
People forget that games are cheap. They didn t increase prices in the Last 20 years, but they cut costs with manuals and boxes, Also the globalization increased the costumers. Price is set by quality, costs, publicity, other extras (special edition, dlc, etc) and a expected profit (honest but not greedy). Do shoot em Ups should bé priced át 60 Dollars? Possíble , but hard, they don t have the same cost as a triple AAA game (GTA v costed at leAst 150 million Dollars ).should a good shoot em up cost 10 Dollars? Absolutely no. When i look to games like sophstar, blue revólver at that price and considering that Steam takes 30%, i dont know how they earn enough money to play the hours of work (that should bé payed até the same level as a programmer, graphic designer, etc) and still have a reasonable profit.
absolutely! We talk about this a bit where general game prices are plummeting, even outside of shmups
agree AND game dev is so expensive... its really an odd mix, but also game dev tools ARE a lot easier to use nowadays so at least we have that... I hope that more dev tools get into the hands of indie devs and they can make games with less pain but Art and Music will be 2 things that are always ( even in todays society ) SUPER under valued, and while that is a shame it will be the straw that breaks shmups back if they dont continue to make the Art better and evolved and keep sticking to 16 bit art at best
When they have the ketsui deathtiny training features. Done.
(37 min) I always buy physical, and, I am a hacker and PC player. The only reason I have "STEAM" is because it came with Halflife 2, for, free.
They released "STEAM" because the Valve anti cheat could not stop me.
In fact it is still hacked even to this day? Search ; "Steamless CS".
MMMMMM - "Gradius 3" cartridge was not "FREE". I am sure they did not hand it out at Toys R Us, if, you walked in the store.
anyway yeah F%ck "VAC" hahahahahaha
(1 hr 20) ..... Great idea bro but LET US see this "%00gle" Super Server that is going to run that. And for forty bux. Steam can't run That. ... . Have you programmed bro?
Dare ee us
I don't have a problem with paying full price for an (arcade) game that lasts 5 minutes. If there is enough incite for me to play it over and over again, as in satisfying gameplay. People who feel cheated because their new game didn't last a gazillion hours aren't really gamers. They are escapists.
Absolutely!
Also you would spend a average of 100 hours on most arcade games to achieve 1cc so...
Great interview. Long, interesting and entertaining.
Exactly this.
I would agree with the escapist comment. It’s why I couldn’t really invest into RPGs as a whole as a kid. Over the last 7 years I’ve played numerous titles including FFX + X2, Last Story, the Dark Souls series, SMT Digital Devil Saga 1, Monster Hunter World, etc. but geeeez the sheer amount of time these games require is not really the spirit of arcade gaming - which is my preference.
Battle Garegga Physical for ps4 is specially worth it ❤️ 🎮
The M2 Shottriggers are worth full price. I have all the physicals available and the digitals. Wish we get the few that didn't leave Japan yet..
yes we need western releases asap
Shmups are definitely worth full price to me as I think quality is always more important than "hours of content". What really matters is how good and dense the content actually is because that means I will be more likely to play it again. Then again I don't mind paying full price for a fighting game either, as long as a game is good I don't think it's a problem.
On the topic of a game like Elden Ring though, I'm not sure you can actually compare traversal to wasted time unlike in a lot of other games. Exploration and level design are integral parts of some of these games and why I like them so much. If you cut down all the traversal and only kept the fights, I don't think I would enjoy them as much. That would be like taking the exploration out of a Zelda game. But you're right, shmups are a lot more condensed and make for a more intense experience IMO.
yes that's how I feel as well! the "hours of content" is silly because the quality of the game is much more likely to determine how long you play it rather then how much unique padding the game offers. super mario 3 is about 2 hours worth of "content" but I've probably played it over 1k hours at this point ha.
For me, the price I'll go for shmups is like this:
>$60 Collectors item/edition of an all time favorite (Futari, deathsmiles)
$60 M2 release of legendary games (ketsui, esprade)
$50 new high profile shmup I know I'll enjoy (cotton rock and roll)
$40-30 collection of good old shmups with good ports and bonuses (Aleste and tiger heli)
$25-15 Indie game Guranteed to be a banger (Gunvein, blue revolver)
I only buy games full price physically. If there is no physical then I’m those people who wait for a sale. Very rarely I buy it digitally full price. I did it for eschatos on switch, that’s the last time and only time I got a full price digital game. I think Grandia is the only other full price digital game I bought but that’s an rpgs and with Eshop card birthday gift.
Yeah I agree, I think it s lame when the physical version and the digital version are the same price, they should shave some money off on the digital edition (at full price at least)
Dunkey made a great video on the value/price of games. These days it’s just stupid, you get indie games for $4.99 that have 500 hours worth of gameplay and then you get subpar triple A same old generic 10 hour campaign for $100
It’s funny in the top 5 games with the most hours on my steam list 3 of them are free games, Path of exile, warframe and tf2.
Yes exactly!!! All of my top played games on steam are also indie releases
For must shmups players maybe, since they will replay the game more times than elden ring time combined.
Most people just coin much shmups though so it's not worth for them, even things like gadgets are basically useless for casuals.
Yeah the divide in value between dedicated play and casual play is really interesting
So different strokes for different folks is what I'm hearing. That's what makes good shmups are great.
Yes for sure, trying to find that common price point is tricky!
Release Shmup Slam 1 VOD Mark ! :p
On a more serious note, very interesting interview. Very entertaining to listen to. The flow of the conversation was great. The question of "how much would you play for a shmup ?" is very interesting.
I think I am sitting with Aktane on that one. For a game I have never touched, I can hardly see myself invest more than 40$. And the game needs to absolutely look top tier, with all the extra/quality of life stuff. On the other side, Ketsui on PS4 or Garegga are a little bit biased. Because we know how great these game are, especially if we already put 100h+ in these games. We could even consider buying a PCB if we had the money.
Ha I will release shmup slam 1 when I hit 15k subs as a celebratin XD I def know what you mean about the m2 ports, since they are the cream of the crop. That is going into my point a bit though because price is the most powerful indicator of value we can come up with basically. So if an m2 port isn't $60, I don't really see any way to justify any shmup being $60. On the other hand though, yes the reality is that game prices are falling and shmups are going to be in that group of games that are considered more in the $20 range. So I think if we can see a healthy price spread where indie shmups land in the 10- 20 range and the more premium go for 30-50 I think that would work really well. It's still in the air how much people are willing to pay though, which is interesting.
Juju my man thanks for listening, that is a really good point, those games have been sort of "proven" to be quality right, but the question is also " is that YOUR game" ... wonder how many people play Garegga and maybe think " well this is great but maybe I am more of a DoDonPachi " player, then what do they do with the Garegga at $60, they must kind of need a lower price point to "get in" and then if they love it, maybe PCB or Physical release or DLC or something more to get them to pay the rest of the $60 or even more because theyre SO excited they found THEIR game and are now going to sink 200 hours into it...I guess quality is one thing but player preference has to have a hand in "picking" your shmup right?
Great chat guys. I like the thinking of $40 max for even Shot Triggers. As I left it until too late to import them, I still think I paid reasonably okay for my M2 physical copies...
Garegga (about £48)
Esprade (£63)
Dangun Feveron (£65.50)
Ketsui (£84!! - but its well over 100 now)
Holy ballz that's crazy how much ketsui is! Now I wish I would have bought a physical version when it came out ha.
@@TheElectricUnderground You should have! If I bought a copy from Play Asia right now, after tax and shipping it will take it over £120! ...so 84 aint too bad delivered when I got it.
Jeremy Parish has been around forever. Very knowledgeable about all aspects of gaming. I've enjoyed his work since WAY back in the EGM days. And "are shmups worth full price" is obviously subjective. It is to me no doubt. I can't get into AAA games anymore. I'm over them. But to some, buying a "simple airplane game" at $60 might be too much.
Yeah I have heard of retronauts but am not too familiar with it ha.
Perspective from a pseudo-beginner here: having continues is super nice for the first few runs of a game, especially if it doesn't offer save states. Sometimes I want to practice a no miss run and sometimes I want to see more of the game; I will do my best to get as far as I can without continuing... but I will definitely continue once I die because I like the gameplay, the music, the artwork, etc. It all depends on the mood I'm in and what seems more fun to me.
Credit feeding might seem stinky for players with a lot of shmup experience, but for people still honing their skills, it has its benefits, including being able to see more of the game and enjoying the aesthetic experience the game offers, which definitely has its own value (I decided to 1cc Crimzon, Mushi, and DDP DFK after credit feeding wins; mainly because I liked all the music and stages so much, I realized I wanted to spend more time with them).
credit feeding is AWESOME. I have a WHOLE VIDEO coming up on that on ShmupTopia's channel and my own... seriously its ALL about this topic stay tuned! it should be out this week!
yeah I don't mind credit feeding personally, but I think it runs the risk of having newer people to the genre checking out early, so maybe an open stage select might be a good alternative in combination with a ZR style continue system?
Gradius V had an interesting idea; that by playing you earned continue credits. The continues are permanent. Having limited credits earned per run would add value to your gameplay. Or at least an interesting idea for a separate special mode perhaps!!
I have played shmups with several non-shmup players. Credit feeding ruined the experience each time. Because the person doesn't even have to engage themselves when they know they can just continue right at that spot.
If a person can't credit feed through Dark Souls; why can they credit feed Dodonpachi? Just food for thought..
I think their point is on though. There's no real game-provided goal if it just lets you credit feed, and the gulf between being a noob and 1cc is too big
If some dev came along and made something akin to the Streets of Rage 4 of the shmup world then sure, I'd be willing to pay a little extra. If all you're offering me is decent emulation of ancient titles with some nice menus and features that are essentially free byproducts of the emulation process anyways (like save states), then no.
Sorry, but why should a shmup get a pass when everything else has to work its ass off for my money.
We talk about this very topic in the ep :-)
Dariusburst AC EX+ Cozmic Revelation has Ghost Score, shows the world record holder score progress real time during the run for every single stage. Even Chronicle mode
very sick.
Wow that game sound crazy! I have cozmic collection and have felt that is a really solid port, just didn't feel motivated to upgrade to revelation yet.
Also, this is the first time I feel like bombing has been discussed and it is clarifying for me why I’m so stuck on certain stages. I have been playing Mushi and Esprade a lot and never bomb. All of a sudden I’m realizing that bombing is a skill that I just don’t have. Lots to think about it here.
Yes for sure! I think my next "HOW TO SHMUP" video will be all about bombing and bomb meta :-)
I'll add a different comment from the other one that way I may get lucky if you see it.
I play shmups on my phone (hell, I play most games on my phone, both through emulation, Stadia and stuff). It's pretty easy to do and you can easily play most games from old snes stuff to games like Ketsui, Cho Ren Sha, Ikaruga and most others big shmups.
If you're interested I can easily guide you on it and explain further, but it surprisingly plays pretty good, although a Tate monitor is usually better. Getting a gamepad such as the one I have (PXN 9613) or Xbox Series X is pretty easy and connecting them is just as easy as connecting bluetooth headphones to your phone. Basically you get portability, the latency feels really good (haven't tested it though) and get the same experience as on other platforms while having a Switch sized screen without buying a Switch.
Oh great point, I should try shmuparch on the phone at some point ha
@@TheElectricUnderground It's just as weird to configure than on pc, but it works pretty well, although run ahead won't work on many devices (you get laggy gameplay).
I adore the Switch! I have a PS5 and I dont even touch it. Switch is so convenient, and most games focus on gameplay instead of graphics. This is the right direction imo. The pendulum swung way too heavily into the repetitive Call of Duty type games, only focusing on sharpening existing IP's. Switch is giving newcomers a chance while also providing diversity to the players. Great episode, Aktane is a great guy!
Hey my dude!! Yeah I play my switch a lot as well, much more then I expected. That little bastards keeps getting interesting smaller releases ha. Also I think my PS4 went crazy or I need to switch out my vga converter
The way the steam sale dynamic works for me is this: I recently returned to shmups (played when I was a kid) and I’ve bought something like 20 games now and have a huge backlog. I paid full price for some but I bought the rest on sale because the opportunity was there. Eventually in a year or two I probably would have bought some of them full price. So there’s a fourth profile of gamer like me who’s happy to pay full price but will also build up a backlog on discount when opportunity presents itself.
I think it's a matter of "Upfront Value" vs "Long Term Value".
Most humans are wired to prioritize the immediate easy-to-see benefits of a product.
While a bloated open world game has less overall value than a polished arcade experience, the consumers will get more out of it in the short term, which is what the general gaming community has been conditioned to seek.
That's a great way of describing it Broken. Yeah up front the shmup may seem less worth the money, but over time they definitely are worth their weight in gold (or yen lol)
Great video guys! For your different takes on games like G-Darius (sticking to the optimal path Vs playing around with every option), another good feature that both of you could enjoy is having Score Attack for every stage with its own leaderboard. That gives the hardcore a reason to grind the "lesser" stages, and the casual a less serious scoring challenge to get into.
Oh that s a really cool idea!
Some people have weird standards for value when buying games. I remember I saw this guy on Reddit claiming he wouldn’t buy Sekiro after it was revealed that the file size for the game was like 12 gb. He said he wouldn’t pay full price for such a “small” game. Strange reason to deny yourself one of the best action games ever made.
People like that would like to buy their games by the pound rather than by the quality of the meat, I guess.
People using file sizes to dictate price is too funny, just throw in a bunch of padding files and increase the price XD
That person you mentioned just want a fat game with barely even a meat and bone.
nah, he was just too proud to say that the game is too hard for him lol
Excellent conversation! So many great topics tips,reccomendations and laughs🤙
Thanks so much my dude!!! Yes the ep was a fun time :-) thanks for tuning in!
Look at the prices of almost any SHUMP from a legacy system. They are always some of the most expensive/sought after games. As a game collector, I don’t think twice about paying full price for a SHUMP.
Yeah shmup collecting prices is no joke! Then pcb prizes are a whole extra level of crazy ha
Imagine a "use your bomb, noob!" mode in which you would keep all your bombs even if you die!!! .... You died with a stack of 6 bombs? well, you got 9 now! The game would be like: use those, dammit! - That mode would not count as real 1cc, no replay save, just one of the training modes!
Suggestion for Aktane:
Play OutZone and go for counterstop.
It's a toaplan game that's actually all killer and no filler imo.
Hey thanks! I actually did an Outzone and Fixeight blind kumite with Shmup Junkie and it was super fun! I'm excited for these games, although I dont really score much and I dont think they are really shmups because they don't auto scroll, but they're super fun. I'll have to go back to them at some point, the sprite work is incredible: ua-cam.com/video/aHxAyxceU_Y/v-deo.html
Another fantastic podcast episode :)
I swear I did not pay Aktane to pimp Operation STEEL so much!
wheres my money bb
Ha now I have to play it, will go for a commentary clear soon
@@TheElectricUnderground ♥ Should be pretty easy for you to beat Normal mode
@@Undermog we need mark to get the TLB stage at least! it is SO good you put so much work into it, and the music to that stage is the perfect "ending" to your game!! I hope he doesnt quit before the star map is complete hahaha we shall see!
People get so crazy about game prices, like an extra $10 is going to cripple them financially. I used to pay $50 for Atari games. They had 1 button. Getting your money’s worth back then was a struggle. I have no problem paying full price for a good shmup. I have no problem paying way more than full price if I have to.
Yeah it s crazy how pricing has changed over the years
10$ may be nothing for an american, for someone living in the third world it could be the difference between a macdonalds and a high class steak.
Stop with price elitism.
@@brunorastafa1429 that’s a pretty ridiculous comment. $60 is fine but $70 isn’t? I would think if you can afford to buy a PS5 or XSX then $10 isn’t a big deal.
If you knew anything about inflation and money conversion you would know how big of a deal those "just 10$" are.
Having a console is no fucking excuse too, people still complain about gas price even though they own a car.
But well, I guess you already accepted ignorance in your part, gonna find this comment "ridiculous" cause it contradicts what you believe.
@@brunorastafa1429 inflation? If inflation really affected game prices they would have gone up more than 10-20 dollars in the last 30 years. You should probably give up.
This was 3 hours of quality entertainment. Learned a lot and got a lot of new insights. Aktane is so much fun listening to. Subbed to his channel immediately after.
Appreciate it! Hope you have a great week :)
I m glad you liked it my dude!!! Thanks for giving him a sub as well :-)
I will gladly pay full price for a game that is excellent. For example, 60 dollars for the m2 garegga is no problem, because it’s an amazing game and that is the best format to play it. I will not pay even 40 dollars though for a new game getting middle of the road to bad reviews, such as sol cresta. The quality of the game should dictate the price point. Another example of this is Metroid Dread. That game cost 60 dollars and is about eight hours long. It’s very lean and has almost no filler, it’s almost all action with great gameplay density. It’s completely worth the price despite its relatively short length. I’m playing Elden ring now and have already put 60 hours in to that game and it is also worth it’s price point too, but neither Elden ring nor Metroid dread are more deserving of their price point than the other, in my opinion. Both are exceptional games creating entirely different gameplay experiences.
Yes great points! Also yeah sol cresta is over priced, the poor performance and graphics really hurt it in that reguard
You might be the only channel offering critical commentary about video games in 2023 who actually has the requisite brain cells to do so. I dunno what the fuck has gotten into everybody else. All the Dunkey, Nintendolife and ShillUp-type shit makes me feel like I’m going insane.
Online co-op i think is too big for shmup future for us to ignore, it should be standard
I want either online co-op aswell.
Yeah I think that would go a long way!
I think my view is unpopular, but I find my gaming "budget" is limited a lot more by time than money, so I have zero problem putting down $80 on a shmup, fighter, or even puzzle game if I think it looks cool. Elden Ring may have tons of content in theory, but in practice it's one of many games I bought for full price and then played for a few hours before losing interest, while a shmup is so engaging the whole time you're playing that it is easy to keep playing it over and over. I have even decided not to buy many games after reading how long they take to beat and thinking "yeah, never happening."
That said, a "ROM on a disc" is objectively worse than the free experience and it's not worth paying much for that. I think you guys are right to identify freeplay as an issue -- when I was a kid I never got into Saturn shmups because freeplay completely removed the tension. Your choice is between credit-feeding, which is mindless, or 1cc, which is so far away it feels impossible. Limited continues would be an easy solution, but I think M2STG releases are state of the art with many intermediate goals before arcade 1cc, like arcade challenge modes, "kizuna" segments, easier arranges, etc. It might be interesting for a new game to present something like arcade challenge as the "main" mode and regular arcade as an ancillary challenge, rather than the other way around.
e: Oh yeah, one more thing... I've really soured on the mini console thing, especially with the absurdity of a SECOND mini Genesis. The SBCs on these things can all play each other's games so it's like just an exercise in creating e-waste, and they're locking many games behind them (for instance, can you even buy Batsugun on a modern console? Well you can buy the stupid little fake arcade cabinet with a million frames of lag if you want). With stuff like runahead there's (imo) no excuse for the performance to suck so bad. Yeah that's somewhat performance-intensive, but let them throw a better SBC in there if the one they're using isn't up to the task. Stuff like RPi4 or some Chinese emulator handhelds can handle it now, no reason the official options shouldn't.
Tbh I think that credit feeding ruins shmups, specially for beginners. Sure, you can and probably should bomb and all that, the thing is that if you allow yourself to improve over time and learn and get further and further in the game progressively, you just have things to look for for your first times, and you probably won't even memorize the game as well if you just keep bs-ing the second half of the game.
There are more potential shmup fans playing rhythm games than fighting games. As an outsider I think the crossover the tohou games has is from the fanbase following the characters like vocaloid idols and the emphasis it places on music.
It's also probably not a coincidence the genre generally is known for its soundtracks. It's almost like a binary state rhythm game. Stay alive and keep listening/die and the music ends
The problem with Touhou is the most popular touhou games are old and need to be patched or tweaked to get working, and not everyone does that kind of stuff. Although Shmup fans generally are more apt at using computers, Touhou is still confusing to set up at first. Having emulator experience gets your through using Retroarch and other games are plug and play on steam. Also like Touhou 6 and 7 have no mixer for audio so you burst your eadrums opening it.
The music sounds like perfect kiss from.New Order
Great show! In the 80s/90s I think difficulty was what made a game worth the money...you paid 50 bucks for a game and the devs expected it to take maybe 20+ hours for an average gamer to beat it. So it was like $2.50 per hour of game.
Oh yeah that s a good point, back in the day devs couldn't pad out content like now, so they had to up the difficulty for longer value
You mentioned a game like Elden Ring minus everything outside the boss fights. You should really try Furi or Mechstermination.
Oh thanks for the heads up! Always looking for games with good combat :-)
Mechstermination is a blast! Extremely underrated. Just insane huge boss rush. I love it!
The only RPG I've played that I can consider that have an arranged mode would be Etrian Odyssey 2 Untold. Etrian Odyssey is always about picking your set of party and trying to explore the hidden depths the Yggdrasil labyrinth. For arranged version they got "Story Mode", it still got the same lore but instead of choosing a specific class party member, you will play with a pre-made party and them having their own personalities and stories. The story mode also an exclusive class so that made it more unique.
I think arranged mode is possible for rpg aswell...... Btw, I do wish Fire Emblem gba gets an arranged mode where it doesnt have tutorials and also get a different mission objectives and enemy placement just to spice things up... Seriously, strategy rpg CAN actually benefit from arranged mode treatment.
Fire emblem arrange mode would be awesome!!!
30:39 training mode.... I feel like I am the only one who is having a hard and awkward time with training mode. Whenever I do a training mode on some stages, I be like "why the hell I didnt just do this on arcade or conquest mode!!".
38:00 the special editions should be something like Elemental Gearbolt collector edition where you get a briefcase and a light gun needs to be a thing.
I feel the same thing btw, thats why I dont use training modes much, if at all, I just go play the game haha!! lol briefcase and lightgun is funny, I'd definitely appreciate artbooks and music cds and stuff like that more though :) haha
@@AKTANEARCADE Conquest mode works better for me since it save stages and your resource are intact.
Yeah I wish special editions had more creative content, like a making of DVD or something
Great as the 90's classics are I think 34.99 on psn is far too much
Yeah I think they should bundle more of the toaplan games together
Hey I finally got done with this whole 2 and half at work today. Great show. Awesome idea about ghosting in shmups. Also don't know if anyone mentioned but Jeremy parish is like the co developer of the flip grip. He's also a damn good video game historian. He has a chanel on UA-cam and also his podcast which was mentioned. But he's a real og. He used to write for 1up and also is part of "limited run" or one of those companies not sure which. Great podcast!
Oh that's awesome! I'm glad you tuned in all the way to the end, I love when that happens :-) Yeah that guy sounds pretty awesome! For some reason I haven't come across his work before but it sounds interesting!
It's cool to hear about the shmup Discords here. Are Underground and Junkie's Discords Patreon only?
No public and free! Link in the description :-)
Fun podcast! Enjoyed the discussions a lot :)
Thanks so much for tuning in!
this video inspired me to spin up Zero Ranger again.
Nice!!! Can't go wrong with the zr in your life :-)
DO IT
A good shmup is worth ONE BILLION DOLL HAIRS! But yeah, value is tied on the sell side to market demand (if you can't sell many, you need larger margins on each unit), and on the buy side the intrinsic value & scarcity of the experience.
Yeah and I do think quality extra modes go a long way too
I'm I the only one listening to this episode thinking Mark is talking to Owen Wilson?
Ha that s great! Owen and I go way back
As a dev, i would put my shmup online, and go for a degressive price plan, like "hey, i made this shmup with love, i value it, i need to eat, it's FIFTY BUCKS.... But, if i sell X copies, it will go down to 40, and then 30 and then .... and so on, until it's a 5$ game or i even give copies away because i simply can survive and develop and i'm happy!
I love the Esprade challenges. Irori's room is great too. It made me a better player. The trophies were a good reward and a drive to push forward. I got the plat, but didn't get a 1cc till much later on. Worth every penny. I'd say all the M2 PS4 releases are all excellent value at day one retail prices.
I wish I could enjoy irori s room more but I can t read the Japanese at all
@@TheElectricUnderground I can't read Japanese either lol. It's really easy to get what's going on though. You earn currency by doing the challenges, then play a gatcha machine to furnish the characters rooms. Its a bit crazy lol
A ghost mode might be too messy (the shots already destroy the screen on dodonpachi so...) but the idea is fantastic, i would just show (optionally) the routes, like a white line that draws and shows how a top player moves on that stage, you figure out the shots to keep up! (also maybe a blink to indicate when he bombs maybe) I mean, something light but helpful to learn routes!
This video is old so i don't know but i gave 1 of my xbox controllers and he uses that on his phone (bluetooth), it's not a bad option!
If the game and the port are good (no excesive input lag, good presentation and some extras like extra dificulty levels or game modes) the game can be full price. Of curse, I prefer to pay less, but I didn't have any problems paying 60+ eur for esp.ra.de psi for switch.
Shmups don't need to be long: they have to be fun and replayable.
Yes I agree for sure! I love releases like the shottrigger ports where they go all in with quality emulation and extras :-)
35:20 Cygni does exactly this but made the huge mistake of not having leaderboards for each stage. surely they’ll add that…
I do pay the price for the physicality of owning them, I collect them for the Nintendo Switch.
Digitally only if it's below 10-5 USD maybe.
Good podcast mark
Thanks so much my dude!!!
Is a Shmup Worth Full Price of $60? Sure, if you buy ZeroRanger six times... otherwise no. Especially when it's a lazy, barebones port like Cotton Reboot that's priced at hilarious 45$ and surprise surprise, no one's buying it (not on Steam at least).
I am kinda curious, what made Cotton Reboot a barebones?
@@soratheorangejuicemascot5809 Just compare it to something like Sophstar, which is a first project of a new indie studio and has a lot of settings, customization options and additional modes/features (and costs quarter of CR's price). While Success Corporation made around 50 games across 4 decades yet CR seems amateurish in comparison.
@@konstantdrachenfels5446 I see. That does sound disappointing the moment now that you mentioned what Sophstar had. Poor Cotton Reboot.
@@konstantdrachenfels5446 good argument based on facts!
Cotton reboot is an expensive one! I d price it at 20 personally
These podcasts are absolute godsends for when im grinding SoR 2 hardest runs and practicing ddp routes. Got tired of normie pods a long time ago(that whole LA podcast scene).
Sounds like dude don't put much time into shmups to not want to pay $60 for a new Crimson Clover.
Ccwe has a lot of value, that s for sure!
I put time into shmupS, not a single shmup tho, you are correct :)
@@AKTANEARCADE Perfect response. Respect.
What’s an outdated game? I still play IKARI Warriors on a regular basis for Christ sake.
Shumps, esp today shouldn't be more than £15 max. They are now easy to make by developers and not as much effort is needed when compared to other games.
phone perfect for shmups? Turns out Cave ahead of the curve doing their gacha shmup on phone. XD
Is it out?
@@sudarshangopinathan5904 been out for a long time but it is japan only iirc Gothic Mahou Otome is the name as far as I remember off the top of my head
Ha yeah I would love to try out cave's other phone ports, but I think they were on iphone only last I checked.
i'm new to bullet-hell games and bought Mushihimesama full-price on switch £17 or so I think it was (about 20$) on the eshop.
Have to say I am quite disappointed and feel it was a waste of money - the score board doesn't function (can't compete with other players)
The infinite continues are a really bad idea, too - there is basically no "game" or challenge as such, since the scores are not saved and I can just mindlessly complete the game without trying thanks to the continues that never run out.
The options don't save (on mine at least) I set the zoom to 113% and it resets each time I play back to 100%.
I should have bought Crimzon Clover instead (although it's more expensive) as I heard the score board actually works on that game.
It was worth it bruh its better than any modern aaa crap
Great discussion man!
It was a fun episode!!
I went down the rabbit hole of original hardware with OSSC and CRTs. The thought was as an adult beginner of this genre I thought to at least 2 CC some Genesis, Saturn, Dreamcast, Neo Geo CD games to build up my skills and then start working the indie market on steam. I grew up playing sonic and Mario but then fighting games and JRPGs took over. Now that I'm older, a father, my gaming experience and time frame has dramatically shifted. Shmups fill that need without the 40 hour story binges with the exception of MGS. I still need more PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE! Good talk.
Yes exactly! Shmups are a genre that cut out all the filler and get right to the gameplay! I have a vid about this actually! ua-cam.com/video/9Ew5hEMSzEw/v-deo.html
how do you record from the switch, can i directly stream from it ?
No sadly not, you need to use an external capture card
@@TheElectricUnderground deng.. thank you though :)
I'd probably pay full price for SDOJ if it ever gets the greenlight
Aktane really earned my follow by showing that, unlike the majority of the invested Shmup niche, he's in-touch with the broader gaming landscape and better understands where the genre falls short.
After all, the arcade holdovers are what made the genre fade into obscurity and resulted in the very pricing/value conundrum discussed here.
The reason ZeroRanger deserved to be repeatedly brought up as a great springboard Shmup is because it did MANY things differently and was NOT designed as an arcade game. It offered value to more than just the niche.
Now, the bigger names in the genre need to start doing the same and evolve theor game design decades beyond their arcade traditions, in order for the genre to evolve and claw its way out of the pit of obscurity.
I find it funny how quiet Mark got when Aktane mentioned the Euro element of upgrading/levelling as a positive, and the audience during the premiere immediately crapped on EuroShmups. But he's right. The process of in-game progression, and arcade-stuck genres like Shmups and Fighting Games lacking that, are big factors that hold them back.
In the post-arcade era, most personality types need some sort of tangible noticeable extrinsic reward and in-game progression to stay motivated. If a $20-40 Shmup doesn't provide much other than intrinsic reward, it won't be worth the price to most people and they'll go play a game that does. And the current industry offers Free-To-play games with higher production value on top of better extrinsic rewards.
It's just like with fighting games. Shmup devs need to realize that the wants of the currently established niche audience are what prevent the genre from truly growing or evolving. The arcade era is long gone, and games still designed like they're arcade games are relegated to niche budget titles. Can't change that. Only can adapt or become irrelevant, which Shmups kinda already have.
Just as Guilty Gear Strive became the series' entry with both the highest sales AND highest player retention by sticking to their guns despite the hate of the veteran niche (and with Project L looking to shake up the genre further), the most reconizeable Shmups need to do the same.
Problem is, the genre has been obscure for so long that there aren't many Shmup IPs that had widespread name recognition. Just R-Type, Raiden, and Darius, really. And the newest R-Type didn't do very well critically nor comercially.
I'd love to see both fighters and shmups rise in unpr3cedented ways, but that's simply not possible without a lot of changes,
So what'll it be?
Selfishly watch the you love stay budget and obscure, but at least it's yours alone?
Or encourage devs to do what's best for the genre, even if that means it'll lose some elements that made you love it?
With the current state of the genre, I don't see any other way forward.
thanks for this response and also for engaging in the discussion! I think there's stuff that'll stay niche and underground and thats okay but yeah I agree if we wanna see like big big attention towards the genre, there's also THAT way forward too. I think the niche players might be a bit annoyed at that stuff but you got a game like natsuki chronicles which has the euro story mode ( what I played ) and the arcade mode ( what others played) and as long as that arcade mode isnt cobbled together trash, you can have both your high scorers have fun, and your long term gamers enjoy too ... like Tekken Treasure Battle, or Soul Calibur (dreamcast) mission mode!
@@AKTANEARCADE
Having had extensive experience with the FGC, I can attest that the hardcore niche of an arcade-stuck genre often do not have the ability to look past their own narrow perspectives and HATE any changes that are necessary for growth.
But if speedtunning and the Smash competitive communities show anything, it's that people can find ways to make something competitive by reducing elements of random. They don't need the core of the game to cater to them.
Besodes, catering primarily to the competitive (ALWAYS the minority of any audience) is just a poor decision every time.
Yeah I'm not a fan of euroshmup design ha, I was thinking something like "let's hear what he has to say, but i'm not sure where this is going" ha. Personally I would not like to see shmups go into a euroshmup rpg roguelike direction as I would probably lose complete interest in the genre. So for me it's sometime a question of keeping what makes shmups special and awesome - their unique level and game design - while opening up the genre in other aspects like continue systems and such. But I will admit if we're talking about completely changing the core of how the genre works by going in the euroshmup direction, I probably would lose interest in the genre overall and just play beat em ups or something ha
@@TheElectricUnderground yeah I totally am not advocating for the lack of bespoke level design, which I think is important in shmups. I just want to see more levels and have more characters or ways in which to play them, and more bosses, just want more! more music! haha but all that needs to come wrapped in a NEW structure for the game, and different players can pick arcade mode or story mode or versus mode or whatever to have their way.
@@AKTANEARCADE
The problem I see is that, (just like with fighting games) the arcade nature of Shmup game design prevents them from being profitable enough.
Which, in turn, prevents them from having a large budget.
Which, in turn, makes a truly impressive amount of content simply unfeasible.
And that won't change unless elements of the core arcade game design change.
But the genre has been such an insular niche for so long that any of the necessary changes would alienate most of the niche audience. The only people still buying and playing Shmups.
Also, the genre has been obscure for so long that the growth potential is very limited without drastic changes.
It's a lose-lose. Loyalty or growth. Can't have both.
No matter what, the genre alienates a sizeable group. It's just that, currently, the genre is unappealing to far more people than it actually does appeal to.
That's the bed made by devs who failed to gradually and incrementally evolve the genre over time, ever since the arcade era died and that style of game design became increasingly irrelevant.
M2 better steal all those genius ideas would revolutionize shmups!
Nice guitars. Gotta wonder if all of us avid shmup players are guitarists. The overlap seems to be pretty heavy!
Ha that's funny because I play guitar too! There must be something to that ha
M2 gadgets solved the black bars
for sure!
As someone diving deep on shmups via EU and playing a ton of Aktane’s CrossGunr, this episode is seriously an amazing crossover. ❤
and you would HAVE to have some kind of anti cheat. Yeah bro no worries I do not think a single Company is going to steal that idea no hahahahahahahaha. It is very, very, very difficult to do what you are wishing.
Cool idea! ... .. . is it practical CAN you make money no.
yeah NO company is gana spend a million dollars to set all that up so that four people can play it. It's just not practical.
Is there a difference between shmups and bullet hells?
Bullet hell is a subgenre of SHMUP that focuses on particularly dense bullet patterns
3:28 TATE fireplace!? 😳
I'm just happy games like ketsui and battle garegga aren't delisted yet and I can still pick them up today. I did have to make a US psn account for it though, which is a pity.