Don't need to watch anyone except the #1 ranked Male on earth, Ben Johns. Perfect soft game, hard when necessary, doesn't force bad speedups, excellent counters to speedups
Young men at the rec center level are definitely *not* playing the soft game. Bangers, slammers, bashers. The new power paddles will make the bangers more powerful. Wear your safety glasses!
Agree, and their egos won't let them play at the proper level. I was in an intermediate session recently and my partner kept apologizing for his bad shots by saying it was only his 5th time playing. No strategy at all....just bangs and lobs from the base line. Ugh. I had to hold my tongue not to say "why are you even in this session?" Sick of these guys. So not fun.
The Soft Game is NOT dead. I live in a 55+ community in FL where over half the residents play pickleball. It frustrates me, however, that only I try to Drop, when everyone else rather Drives (except a handful of our best league competitors)! I for one will not let the Soft Game die, hoping more players catch up eventually.
Just keep in mind that the drive game is only punishable by strong players who have good blocking fundamentals; and it's why that strategy doesn't work at pro play. If you can't handle the fast/hard balls in rec play, the drives are gonna keep coming your way haha
The gen 3 paddles are detrimental to pickleball. The "propulsion core" is basically the trampoline effect, which is illegal. Also, they have QC issues and inconsistent grist from what I've heard. I watched a few games where the players were using the gen 3 Joola's. The game was played very fast and almost no soft game at all. IDK how anybody would find that fun to play or enjoyable to watch.
At the rec levels, pace can be much more effective. One of the reasons (watch the beginning of your video) is that pros are much better at dealing with the aggressive 2, 4, 6th etc. Watch the shot that JW hits at 2:06. That's a shot that most sub 5.0 players can't do reliably. So it's often better driving the 3rd, and getting a weaker 4th, than dropping the 3rd and having to deal with an aggressive 4th. Most of the players I know are very good at attacking 3rd shot drops.
Agree that pace works better at rec because of the imbalance in ability. 3rd drive rally extenders are more common than they used to be at the higher levels. Andrei has made this into a science.
I think this is the key point: what works at one level might not work at another. For example, lobs and short serves can both be very effective at low/intermediate levels but each becomes much less so - even a mistake - after a while. Similar for traditional soft game vs. "drive and dash" IMO. A lot depends on the relative quickness of the two teams. I know some pairs where I'd use one, and other pairs where I'd use the other, and I've even switched between them mid-game just like I might switch which opponent I'm hitting to. I'd say *more often than not* the traditional way is more effective for me, but it sure doesn't hurt to have more than one option.
The new generation of paddles allows players to generate more pace, and some players adapt their game with more drives. They can even affect you and entice you to bang along. If you play like them, they will likely win the match. The key is to stay patient and make them play a softer game. This is where the block volleys and drops are essential. Many hard hitters don't like this and will continue to try to speed up play, hitting more low-percentage shots that can lead to errors. Nothing wrong with side-stepping a hard-hit ball below the opponent's net and sailing out-of-bounds. IMO, the soft game lives!
Well today I played at least 8 rec. games and there was a total of 2 dinks (by me). One dink was returned with a blistering shot up the baseline to the right of my partner. The other was attacked with a hard shot just over the net catching us off guard. No one will dink because they learned to play by always driving the ball. The hardest thing for me to learn is to reset into a soft game. The dink is not dead, it was never alive with most recreational players.
That is a good way of putting it :). Try this the next time you play: let every near range attack shot go and see how many are in and out. If you try it out, let us know how it went. But send it to me in an email as I may not see it here: Tony@BetterPickleball.com.
Good dinks can’t be attacked tho. They’re too low. So if a good low dink gets attacked, that ball is gonna be out almost every time. Otherwise the dink just wasn’t low enough.
The way to win is to have a well rounded and balanced game. Which includes drives, drops, dinks, etc. The soft game is fundamental. Master it and level up.
I usually play at the local YMCA. When I play with intermediate players the soft game is rare. But the use of the soft gamer rises greatly with the advanced players.
I can not wait to be at that level. I can't stand the bangers, pop ups, over use of lobs, not moving up to the net, etc. in rec play IM. I'm not quite at the next level yet (Dupr 3.4). Need more control and a reliable drop. Hopefully I'll be there by the fall 🤞
The soft game will never be completely dead. The real question is how much will the soft game be used in the future. Traditional pickleball used to be 98% 3rd shot drop and then dinking contest. Nowaday with the new paddle technology players can be very effective with super hard drives and shake n' bake. You can win a good percentage of points that way too if you know what you're doing and be consistent at it. So the Power game have creeping into the modern day game. No more 98% 3rd shot drop anymore. And it shouldn't be... you should always keep your opponents guessing wheather it's a 3rd shot drop or a ripper. Seem to me that it's more 70% drop and 30% hard drives now. May be more in the future as more talented players coming to the game introducing new shots that we haven't even seen and image. Pickleball is evolving so evolve with it... Get Better. It is what it is...
This is new trend now; some players are always trying to drop 3rd shot but new players are trying to drive the ball whenever they have a chance. Now, dinking game starts from 4th and 5th shot. if you are not used to receive fast & heavy drive you will have a hard time, but, once, you get use to those balls you will be ok.
JW/Frazier will often drive on the third when the opponents are stacking and the returner is going to be late to the NZV due to the extra ground they have to cover.
Occasionally I get to play with 4.5-5.0 players. They will pound you if you can't handle the heat. If you show them you can handle their drives they switch to a soft game to force a pop up they can put away. It seems you have to have both if you want to play at that level.
Touché!….. I am a Pickleball instructor here in CA and reference“Respect the X“ daily… Many thanks to CJ and yourself for helping both me and my students play a smarter game …. :)
No the soft game is not dead. I am playing at a 3.5 level and have been trying to use the soft game more frequently. I have found that with three year old dinks I have found more success since most people playing at this level and not comfortable using the soft game to create shots that can be attacked.
As people start playing with the Joola Gen 3's and other hot paddles that are adding 10mph or more to volleys and drives it will change the game. Getting out of the way is a hard option when you can't move fast enough. You'll have to block shots and take a chance on the ball going out. You will also need to adjust when starting a volley. Balls coming back 50% faster off your opponents paddle is disadvantage. One you can't fix with fast hands using a Gen 2 paddle. The game will see more drives, more body bagging, and more welts and injuries. Wear eye protection!
Have you considered the PPA in Bristol, TN final doubles? Alshon and Duong did use the slow game on occasion,but the hard game overshadowed all else. Cool match, but this style is more like Padel. Is the slow game dying?
Appreciate the comment. That was an interesting match. I liken what we are seeing to MMA. A boxer vs a wrestler. Who wins? Sometimes it’s one and sometimes the other. But both approaches work.
Wow, thanks for getting back to me. I can't imagine how many comments you get. Plus everything else you do for us. You pretty much gave me what I was really hoping for. Comfort. I don't want to imagine a world where no one can see the difference between pickleball and padel, for example. A kitchenless power game. Your analogy seems to be perfect. Actually, it makes me see it as even more exciting than terrifying. 😄 Thank you for that. Take care and keep on serving the greatest game ever!
We see heavy hitters knocking it into the net or out often. What is needed is some idea how good a tactic is worth doing for a certain percentage of errors it results in. Suppose 1 third of the time I can spin the serve so that they miss it. Then trying that I have an illegal serve 20% of the time. Is it worth it? What ratio would be worth it?
The soft game requires technical skill, focus, and placement. It often sets up a shot you can hit hard or smash. If pickleball is exclusively a "banger" game, its nothing more than hybrid tennis.
In rec play, at least for me, hard fast serve + pushing slower opponents with hard shots seems to me to be a big advantage as it clearly takes time away, keeping em back, more kill shots, oh so satisfying, etc. Listen to James Ignotowich's perspective on the latest Briones pod...dude hasn't played PB more than 3 years and has climbed very high in the rankings. Says mixed doubles v mens doubles is a different animal. Wear cool glasses folks.
Appreciate the thoughtful comment. Not suggesting that there is no place for hard hit balls. Just that a disciplined soft game approach seems to win loads of medals. Including against big James
The soft game will still dominate the game until a doubles team can figure out how to get more points playing the hard game from the baseline vs. two players at the kitchen line. I am curious to see what the stats are for winners from the baseline vs. the kitchen line.
I don’t have exact stats but have watched plenty of pro play. I’d speculate that baseline or transition zone winners are well under 10% at the pro level.
First I'd like to say that most pro players agree that CJ is not a top 4 player. Second of all DeHart and Howells are not using Gen 3 paddles nor are they the strongest drive and crash the kitchen duo in the world. They are amazing players but they are not very close to JW and Dylan so of course JW and Dylan playing their soft game will win against "lower" tier players. Ben and Colin literally just got 11-3ed then pickled by 2 players speeding up every other shot so I think this is a bit of a biased take.
Look at it this way: there’s an upcoming tournament. The Johns brothers and JW/Dylan are both in it. You can bet $100 on one of these two teams winning or you can take the field. Who you betting on?
@@BestPickleballCoach I get what you are saying. My point is that just because the 2 best teams use the same strategy doesn’t mean it’s the “right” one. I think sooner then later they may be surpassed by more aggressive teams or become more aggressive themselves.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the best doubles player in the world 3rd shot drives more than he drops in Men's doubles and 3rd shot drops more than he drives in Mixed. And in either case will dink you till you surrender!!
@@BestPickleballCoach Ben. I should have confirmed the numbers but I seem to remember being surprised that Ben was driving more against the men than against the women.
@@ianmacdonald5278 It all depends on the strategy Ben chooses against his opponents. Some teams he will drive more, some he will drop almost exclusively.
Why on earth would you look at the pro players to determine if the soft game is dead? They are ALL young and most are ex_tennis pros. You should be looking at the new players coming up . when you watch the women pros, they play tennis on a pickleball net.( strictly based line). i don’t know which way its going but we may have to be able to do both. Just saying
Why on earth is a bit hyperbolic but I’ll take the bait. The premise is what do the best in the game do to win those 🏅? Soft game is the answer. Next question: can us mere mortals do that? Answer: yes.
DeHeart / Howells is not using the 3rd shot drive correctly. They are approaching too fast into the kitchen. Also 3rd shot drive must be followed by a 5th shot drop. The point of the 3rd shot drive is get a bounce in transition that makes hitting an effective 5th shot drop easier. Johnson Frazier have really great drops that most rec players will not be able to replicate especially when deep at the baseline and having to hit 5th 7th and 9th drops. Most players including myself will fail after 2-4 attempts to drop the ball from the baseline by going high or hitting the net. Paddle tech has made 4th shot pressure to keep your opponent back after a 3rd shot drop very easy. What Johnson Frazier do requires an immense amount of skill higher than what most amateur pickleball players are able to do. That is why in advanced rec play most "soft" players get destroyed by bangers. At the 4.5/5.0/Open level at tournament play there are very few of these true finesse players left in my area. This however is not true however with intermediates and beginners. Whoever is most consistent wins which often means bangers get destroyed because they lack the fundamentals to execute the shot with high consistency. That's just my opinion and observation.
The other third shot drive strategy is shake and bake, or drive and crash. This is becoming more and more prevalent at the pro level. There is also a crash opportunity available off a spinny, hard to handle drop shot. I set up a lot of those. But yes, it requires a high level of skill to successfully play the soft game against bangers now, especially with all the topspin they can generate, and the fact that most bangers now are happy to get up to the net and keep banging there. To play against this, counters and hard blocks to the feet, and the odd block volley reset, must be very strong, dinks must be angled, and with pace and spin, and thirds have to be to a backhand and have spin. Problem is, most people give up on the soft game rather than develop this skill. It is so difficult to get to the net on your serve, that they just start trying to blast their way through the transition zone. Essentially, they give up and opt for power, and if the other team is more powerful, they have nothing else in their toolbox.
It's tough out there. I just played a 4.0 tournament and I'm a decent dropper. But a lot of my opponents were able to hit back those drops very well. Eventually, I decided to just whip out my power paddle (the Gearbox Pro) and just drive the 3rd shots. Then, if I did't get them on the drive, I'd definitely drop the 5th. Maybe the 5th shot drop is the new 3rd shot drop.
It’s well and truely alive. If I can get my partner to reset and keep it soft we beat not just hard hitters but bangers. You can set the hard hitter up so they hit the net. I love that more than winning. Plus if you are older it’s less running about and no aching arm.
Your partner has to play that game with you, as it often takes two or three balls to complete the reset. It's getting harder to find those kind of people to play with. And a resetter in a game with three bangers doesn't do very well, with their partner handing out so many high, attackable balls.
Comparing most players ability and speed to the pros is ridiculas. With the dink to the kitchen keep em back is changed to dink it short, cuz most don't have the wheels to get from the baseline to the NVZ, especially if it is angled off.
You can’t put Collin John’s in any ranking of top 10 players in the world. Ben and Collin are the number one TEAM in the world and Collin plays his role very well but can’t be considered in top ten players in my opinion. Hence why he was one of the last picked in MLP draft and was only drafted because of Ben. I do think Collin has the best reset among the pros though.
Soft game only existed because people didn't know how to spin it over the net with pace - because most pickleball players were old. But now with better athletes coming in from tennis - they can hit drives off of dinks and the soft game will end.
@@BestPickleballCoach Spin it enough so they can turn an average dink into a drive and be able to do so reliably. There is a gamble when trying to do this - if the dink is too good you can't attack off it. Think of turning a dink into a drive like a three point shot in basketball. They have always been guys who can hit threes. But now more and more players are doing so - and the game has changed. The mid range game has disappeared. Likewise the dink game is being diminished at the pro level and this will trickle down towards the amateurs. Could be wrong but I believe the latest stats bear this out. And you created this video as a counter. But its a cherry picked matchup - the new guys coming up dink less.
@@albertcamus5970 appreciate the thoughtfulness (like the handle too). You can pick any match featuring the top 2 doubles teams vs anyone else. Same strategy, This match was good for the contrast it provided. Another interesting one is JW/Dylan vs Tardio/Daescu.
It's not that the soft game is dead. It is that dinking rallies are dying. Also, "Real Time Stats" proved that 3rd shot drives are happening way more than 3rd shot drops. Their data is accurate.
Wouldn’t you agree that the top teams are happy to dink their opponents into submission? The Johns brothers will dink for hours if necessary. There are more third shot drives but those are stay alive rally extenders. Not really an offensive weapon. Like the drive hit by JW in the video.
The soft game is certainly not dead, but very aggressive players that play the speed game are coming up with impressive wins against the elite level, slow players
@@BestPickleballCoach Tardio and Daescu have had two wins just this year against the Johns brothers playing the speed game, with Tardio speeding up every chance he got. Alshon, and I think it was Navratil, have also had a win this year against the Johns Brothers playing extremely aggressively. The game is changing. Even before 2024, it was always the aggressive doubles teams that came closest to beating to theJohns Brothers. Now in 2024, more teams are going all in on that strategy and thus in just a few months we’ve already seen three losses.
@@woodsonsanders1112 you are thinking of Ben Newell and I cannot remember his partner right now. They beat the Johns brothers by just hammering balls at them. Tardio plays amazing and has the hands to challenge with flicks, but the majority of their strategy is still the soft game. That is the point. Maybe one day it changes, but for now the winningest strategy in our game - week in and week out at the highest level - is the disciplined soft game play executed by these teams.
@@BestPickleballCoach lol, no it wasn’t Ben Newel. He hasn’t even been playing PPA tournaments. Look it up you’ll see Im right. Nothing you can say really account for the fact that the John Brothers have been beaten three times in the last couple months by a kamikaze, aggressive play style. You might wanna go back and watch those matches.
@@BestPickleballCoach the loss to newell was a year ago. I’m referring to 2024 matches. And not including the match where Colin was injured. Can’t remember if that was early 24 or late 23.
I mean this is fine but it is nothing definitive. Obviously we all know the soft game is not dead. But you are cherry picking specific points to highlight your conclusion. You have not looked at statistics to see how the game is evolving.
Many players think that the soft game is no longer a viable strategy in pickleball. Seeing the top players use it effectively to win big matches allows these players to think a bit differently about the soft game as a sound approach to the game. We looked at stats all the time. If there are statistics that you think merit consideration, happy to check them out.
Let’s agree that Ben John’s and Collin John’s have lost their last two doubles matches against Andre Daescu and Gabe Tardio. Maybe you had some confirmation bias when you made this video…
Am a big fan of Daescu and Tardio. They are playing amazing pickleball - using the same strategies highlighted in this video. I believe Daescu may be the single best male doubles player right now. He is playing an amazing brand of pickleball and having success with multiple partners. Tardio is an amazing prodigy and is learning a lot playing with Deascu - allowing Daescu to dictate the strategy. No confirmation bias in the video though - the facts remain as stated :).
Lol, sorry, but those are not the four best Pickleball players in the world. Ben is certainly the best, with fed a close second. Connor Garnett is in that conversation Christian Alshon probably also. The fact is there a lot of aggressive players that are vying for the very top spots now.
Don't need to watch anyone except the #1 ranked Male on earth, Ben Johns. Perfect soft game, hard when necessary, doesn't force bad speedups, excellent counters to speedups
👊
And do not forget Ben's got great anticipation and speed.
Young men at the rec center level are definitely *not* playing the soft game. Bangers, slammers, bashers. The new power paddles will make the bangers more powerful. Wear your safety glasses!
Glasses are a great idea.
Agree, and their egos won't let them play at the proper level. I was in an intermediate session recently and my partner kept apologizing for his bad shots by saying it was only his 5th time playing. No strategy at all....just bangs and lobs from the base line. Ugh. I had to hold my tongue not to say "why are you even in this session?" Sick of these guys. So not fun.
The Soft Game is NOT dead.
I live in a 55+ community in FL where over half the residents play pickleball. It frustrates me, however, that only I try to Drop, when everyone else rather Drives (except a handful of our best league competitors)! I for one will not let the Soft Game die, hoping more players catch up eventually.
Just keep in mind that the drive game is only punishable by strong players who have good blocking fundamentals; and it's why that strategy doesn't work at pro play. If you can't handle the fast/hard balls in rec play, the drives are gonna keep coming your way haha
@@teevoe1718 actually, I can handle the bangers too, with counterattacks when necessary.
@@anthonyt0808 that's good! Should have some easy games against those types of players then :)
❤️ it
The gen 3 paddles are detrimental to pickleball. The "propulsion core" is basically the trampoline effect, which is illegal. Also, they have QC issues and inconsistent grist from what I've heard. I watched a few games where the players were using the gen 3 Joola's. The game was played very fast and almost no soft game at all. IDK how anybody would find that fun to play or enjoyable to watch.
Definitely a challenge to the evolution to the sport.
At the rec levels, pace can be much more effective. One of the reasons (watch the beginning of your video) is that pros are much better at dealing with the aggressive 2, 4, 6th etc. Watch the shot that JW hits at 2:06. That's a shot that most sub 5.0 players can't do reliably. So it's often better driving the 3rd, and getting a weaker 4th, than dropping the 3rd and having to deal with an aggressive 4th. Most of the players I know are very good at attacking 3rd shot drops.
Agree that pace works better at rec because of the imbalance in ability. 3rd drive rally extenders are more common than they used to be at the higher levels. Andrei has made this into a science.
I think this is the key point: what works at one level might not work at another. For example, lobs and short serves can both be very effective at low/intermediate levels but each becomes much less so - even a mistake - after a while. Similar for traditional soft game vs. "drive and dash" IMO. A lot depends on the relative quickness of the two teams. I know some pairs where I'd use one, and other pairs where I'd use the other, and I've even switched between them mid-game just like I might switch which opponent I'm hitting to. I'd say *more often than not* the traditional way is more effective for me, but it sure doesn't hurt to have more than one option.
The new generation of paddles allows players to generate more pace, and some players adapt their game with more drives. They can even affect you and entice you to bang along. If you play like them, they will likely win the match. The key is to stay patient and make them play a softer game. This is where the block volleys and drops are essential. Many hard hitters don't like this and will continue to try to speed up play, hitting more low-percentage shots that can lead to errors. Nothing wrong with side-stepping a hard-hit ball below the opponent's net and sailing out-of-bounds. IMO, the soft game lives!
I agree successive drives is a recipe for disaster. And this is coming from a banger!!
💯
Just beat a couple bangers yesterday.. placement over power..
🔥
Well today I played at least 8 rec. games and there was a total of 2 dinks (by me). One dink was returned with a blistering shot up the baseline to the right of my partner. The other was attacked with a hard shot just over the net catching us off guard. No one will dink because they learned to play by always driving the ball. The hardest thing for me to learn is to reset into a soft game. The dink is not dead, it was never alive with most recreational players.
Lol, so very true !
So true. I call that one dimensional play. Little to no technical skill, just driving and banging. It's most recreational play around the country.
That is a good way of putting it :). Try this the next time you play: let every near range attack shot go and see how many are in and out. If you try it out, let us know how it went. But send it to me in an email as I may not see it here: Tony@BetterPickleball.com.
Good dinks can’t be attacked tho. They’re too low. So if a good low dink gets attacked, that ball is gonna be out almost every time. Otherwise the dink just wasn’t low enough.
The way to win is to have a well rounded and balanced game. Which includes drives, drops, dinks, etc. The soft game is fundamental. Master it and level up.
💯
Lob?
@@barb987 big fan of this shot
It's alive... Even though the newer people are not wanting to dink, that is where usually where I can make my points.
That’s how you gain your edge
when you dink, make them think
Let’s hope the soft game does not die. As said the top pros will not let it die. Great content in video.
Ty Ruth
I usually play at the local YMCA. When I play with intermediate players the soft game is rare. But the use of the soft gamer rises greatly with the advanced players.
💯
I can not wait to be at that level. I can't stand the bangers, pop ups, over use of lobs, not moving up to the net, etc. in rec play IM. I'm not quite at the next level yet (Dupr 3.4). Need more control and a reliable drop. Hopefully I'll be there by the fall 🤞
The soft game will never be completely dead. The real question is how much will the soft game be used in the future. Traditional pickleball used to be 98% 3rd shot drop and then dinking contest. Nowaday with the new paddle technology players can be very effective with super hard drives and shake n' bake. You can win a good percentage of points that way too if you know what you're doing and be consistent at it. So the Power game have creeping into the modern day game. No more 98% 3rd shot drop anymore. And it shouldn't be... you should always keep your opponents guessing wheather it's a 3rd shot drop or a ripper. Seem to me that it's more 70% drop and 30% hard drives now. May be more in the future as more talented players coming to the game introducing new shots that we haven't even seen and image. Pickleball is evolving so evolve with it... Get Better. It is what it is...
This is new trend now; some players are always trying to drop 3rd shot but new players are trying to drive the ball whenever they have a chance. Now, dinking game starts from 4th and 5th shot. if you are not used to receive fast & heavy drive you will have a hard time, but, once, you get use to those balls you will be ok.
Interesting way of framing it and I would rent to agree with a shift the way you put it. Appreciate you sharing it.
JW/Frazier will often drive on the third when the opponents are stacking and the returner is going to be late to the NZV due to the extra ground they have to cover.
That is a sound strategy in that situation.
Occasionally I get to play with 4.5-5.0 players. They will pound you if you can't handle the heat. If you show them you can handle their drives they switch to a soft game to force a pop up they can put away. It seems you have to have both if you want to play at that level.
Good stuff Nate
I love seeing Zimmer Biomet as a sponsor. Great company. Love this video and how it illustrates the soft game. Thank you, Tony!
Ty Michelle. I am on the project!!! :).
In the words of Gene Wilder.............Its alive! Its alive !!!!!!!!
Ha ha. Love it. Who plays the off-kilter guy better: Gene Wilder or Val Kilmer?
Touché!….. I am a Pickleball instructor here in CA and reference“Respect the X“ daily… Many thanks to CJ and yourself for helping both me and my students play a smarter game …. :)
@@Johnnyd943 shoot us an email to Tony@betterpickleball.com. We are rolling out a coaching accreditation program that might be interesting to you.
No the soft game is not dead. I am playing at a 3.5 level and have been trying to use the soft game more frequently. I have found that with three year old dinks I have found more success since most people playing at this level and not comfortable using the soft game to create shots that can be attacked.
You got the secret sauce young man!!! :)
As people start playing with the Joola Gen 3's and other hot paddles that are adding 10mph or more to volleys and drives it will change the game. Getting out of the way is a hard option when you can't move fast enough. You'll have to block shots and take a chance on the ball going out. You will also need to adjust when starting a volley. Balls coming back 50% faster off your opponents paddle is disadvantage. One you can't fix with fast hands using a Gen 2 paddle. The game will see more drives, more body bagging, and more welts and injuries. Wear eye protection!
Agree that paddles are changing the pace. Would be a fan of a speed governor.
thank you for calling it the non volley zone! im subbing for that!
✋
Have you considered the PPA in Bristol, TN final doubles? Alshon and Duong did use the slow game on occasion,but the hard game overshadowed all else. Cool match, but this style is more like Padel. Is the slow game dying?
Appreciate the comment. That was an interesting match. I liken what we are seeing to MMA. A boxer vs a wrestler. Who wins? Sometimes it’s one and sometimes the other. But both approaches work.
Wow, thanks for getting back to me. I can't imagine how many comments you get. Plus everything else you do for us. You pretty much gave me what I was really hoping for. Comfort. I don't want to imagine a world where no one can see the difference between pickleball and padel, for example. A kitchenless power game. Your analogy seems to be perfect. Actually, it makes me see it as even more exciting than terrifying. 😄
Thank you for that. Take care and keep on serving the greatest game ever!
What happen if the players on one side do not touch each other racquets between the points?
??
Soft game is alive and part of my game
🔥
We see heavy hitters knocking it into the net or out often. What is
needed is some idea how good a tactic is worth doing for a certain
percentage of errors it results in. Suppose 1 third of the time
I can spin the serve so that they miss it. Then trying that I
have an illegal serve 20% of the time. Is it worth it? What
ratio would be worth it?
I like the ratio approach. It is case specific imo.
The soft game requires technical skill, focus, and placement. It often sets up a shot you can hit hard or smash. If pickleball is exclusively a "banger" game, its nothing more than hybrid tennis.
Appreciate the perspective
In rec play, at least for me, hard fast serve + pushing slower opponents with hard shots seems to me to be a big advantage as it clearly takes time away, keeping em back, more kill shots, oh so satisfying, etc. Listen to James Ignotowich's perspective on the latest Briones pod...dude hasn't played PB more than 3 years and has climbed very high in the rankings. Says mixed doubles v mens doubles is a different animal. Wear cool glasses folks.
Appreciate the thoughtful comment. Not suggesting that there is no place for hard hit balls. Just that a disciplined soft game approach seems to win loads of medals. Including against big James
@@BestPickleballCoach 100%
Great content as usual.
Ty Jorge
It’s alive and well
💯
The soft game better not be dead - I just learned how to dink !! LOL
:). You made a good investment in your game.
The soft game will still dominate the game until a doubles team can figure out how to get more points playing the hard game from the baseline vs. two players at the kitchen line. I am curious to see what the stats are for winners from the baseline vs. the kitchen line.
I don’t have exact stats but have watched plenty of pro play. I’d speculate that baseline or transition zone winners are well under 10% at the pro level.
First I'd like to say that most pro players agree that CJ is not a top 4 player. Second of all DeHart and Howells are not using Gen 3 paddles nor are they the strongest drive and crash the kitchen duo in the world. They are amazing players but they are not very close to JW and Dylan so of course JW and Dylan playing their soft game will win against "lower" tier players. Ben and Colin literally just got 11-3ed then pickled by 2 players speeding up every other shot so I think this is a bit of a biased take.
Look at it this way: there’s an upcoming tournament. The Johns brothers and JW/Dylan are both in it. You can bet $100 on one of these two teams winning or you can take the field. Who you betting on?
@@BestPickleballCoach I get what you are saying. My point is that just because the 2 best teams use the same strategy doesn’t mean it’s the “right” one. I think sooner then later they may be surpassed by more aggressive teams or become more aggressive themselves.
@@bolbi858 you may be right. Will update my thinking when that happens :).
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the best doubles player in the world 3rd shot drives more than he drops in Men's doubles and 3rd shot drops more than he drives in Mixed. And in either case will dink you till you surrender!!
Hello Ian. Who are you thinking about?
@@BestPickleballCoach Ben. I should have confirmed the numbers but I seem to remember being surprised that Ben was driving more against the men than against the women.
@@ianmacdonald5278 It all depends on the strategy Ben chooses against his opponents. Some teams he will drive more, some he will drop almost exclusively.
@@LeanneSchultz-x3y yes. I think his percentage of drives has increased though while playing mixed in general.
The soft game is alive. It is effective at the 3.0 level, all the way up to 6.0!
💯
Why on earth would you look at the pro players to determine if the soft game is dead? They are ALL young and most are ex_tennis pros. You should be looking at the new players coming up . when you watch the women pros, they play tennis on a pickleball net.( strictly based line). i don’t know which way its going but we may have to be able to do both. Just saying
Why on earth is a bit hyperbolic but I’ll take the bait. The premise is what do the best in the game do to win those 🏅? Soft game is the answer. Next question: can us mere mortals do that? Answer: yes.
DeHeart / Howells is not using the 3rd shot drive correctly. They are approaching too fast into the kitchen. Also 3rd shot drive must be followed by a 5th shot drop. The point of the 3rd shot drive is get a bounce in transition that makes hitting an effective 5th shot drop easier. Johnson Frazier have really great drops that most rec players will not be able to replicate especially when deep at the baseline and having to hit 5th 7th and 9th drops. Most players including myself will fail after 2-4 attempts to drop the ball from the baseline by going high or hitting the net. Paddle tech has made 4th shot pressure to keep your opponent back after a 3rd shot drop very easy. What Johnson Frazier do requires an immense amount of skill higher than what most amateur pickleball players are able to do. That is why in advanced rec play most "soft" players get destroyed by bangers. At the 4.5/5.0/Open level at tournament play there are very few of these true finesse players left in my area. This however is not true however with intermediates and beginners. Whoever is most consistent wins which often means bangers get destroyed because they lack the fundamentals to execute the shot with high consistency. That's just my opinion and observation.
The other third shot drive strategy is shake and bake, or drive and crash. This is becoming more and more prevalent at the pro level. There is also a crash opportunity available off a spinny, hard to handle drop shot. I set up a lot of those. But yes, it requires a high level of skill to successfully play the soft game against bangers now, especially with all the topspin they can generate, and the fact that most bangers now are happy to get up to the net and keep banging there. To play against this, counters and hard blocks to the feet, and the odd block volley reset, must be very strong, dinks must be angled, and with pace and spin, and thirds have to be to a backhand and have spin. Problem is, most people give up on the soft game rather than develop this skill. It is so difficult to get to the net on your serve, that they just start trying to blast their way through the transition zone. Essentially, they give up and opt for power, and if the other team is more powerful, they have nothing else in their toolbox.
Appreciate the in-depth comment. Pickleball offers so much strategic thinking and it is great to see the process unfold. Keep them coming.
It's tough out there. I just played a 4.0 tournament and I'm a decent dropper. But a lot of my opponents were able to hit back those drops very well. Eventually, I decided to just whip out my power paddle (the Gearbox Pro) and just drive the 3rd shots. Then, if I did't get them on the drive, I'd definitely drop the 5th. Maybe the 5th shot drop is the new 3rd shot drop.
@@ginjaninja3627 I hear you. I break out the bang stick sometimes too :).
It’s well and truely alive. If I can get my partner to reset and keep it soft we beat not just hard hitters but bangers. You can set the hard hitter up so they hit the net. I love that more than winning. Plus if you are older it’s less running about and no aching arm.
Your partner has to play that game with you, as it often takes two or three balls to complete the reset. It's getting harder to find those kind of people to play with. And a resetter in a game with three bangers doesn't do very well, with their partner handing out so many high, attackable balls.
@@LeanneSchultz-x3y absolutely correct in what you are saying and it’s frustrating
💯. Thanks for the comment.
Comparing most players ability and speed to the pros is ridiculas. With the dink to the kitchen keep em back is changed to dink it short, cuz most don't have the wheels to get from the baseline to the NVZ, especially if it is angled off.
That is one approach
The game is evolving. All of it. Including the soft game. Simply because of the high level of play these kids are practicing.
Definitely an evolving game. Thanks for the comment.
You can’t put Collin John’s in any ranking of top 10 players in the world. Ben and Collin are the number one TEAM in the world and Collin plays his role very well but can’t be considered in top ten players in my opinion. Hence why he was one of the last picked in MLP draft and was only drafted because of Ben. I do think Collin has the best reset among the pros though.
This video is not about who the best player is. It is about the best strategy used by the best players (in teams).
Soft game needed to get to NVZ or lose,
When both teams at NVZ, the better team at soft game will win
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Soft game only existed because people didn't know how to spin it over the net with pace - because most pickleball players were old. But now with better athletes coming in from tennis - they can hit drives off of dinks and the soft game will end.
The players in this video can all spin their shots. Ryler played ATP tennis.
@@BestPickleballCoach Spin it enough so they can turn an average dink into a drive and be able to do so reliably.
There is a gamble when trying to do this - if the dink is too good you can't attack off it.
Think of turning a dink into a drive like a three point shot in basketball. They have always been guys who can hit threes. But now more and more players are doing so - and the game has changed. The mid range game has disappeared.
Likewise the dink game is being diminished at the pro level and this will trickle down towards the amateurs.
Could be wrong but I believe the latest stats bear this out. And you created this video as a counter. But its a cherry picked matchup - the new guys coming up dink less.
@@albertcamus5970 appreciate the thoughtfulness (like the handle too). You can pick any match featuring the top 2 doubles teams vs anyone else. Same strategy, This match was good for the contrast it provided. Another interesting one is JW/Dylan vs Tardio/Daescu.
Soft games are more fun make you think , the tennis players changed pickleball I hate it ,
Not so fast :). I would suggest that pickleball forces tennis players to change. Look at the top players who came from tennis.
agree, soft games are more fun when you can get someone to play them .
stop apologizing when providing a personal analysis. No one is perfect yet u seem afraid to call bald and strikes. Man up
My apologies Don. Won't happen again. Oh crap - did I do it again?
For me the soft game will always be alive in my game. I learned it from my two sons.
👊
Alive. Yes!
✅
❤soft
:)
Why not use their last names as displayed to make it easier for those who don't know their 1st names/initials etc? Thanks for posting.
Appreciate the idea and thanks for watching it.
It's not that the soft game is dead. It is that dinking rallies are dying. Also, "Real Time Stats" proved that 3rd shot drives are happening way more than 3rd shot drops. Their data is accurate.
Wouldn’t you agree that the top teams are happy to dink their opponents into submission? The Johns brothers will dink for hours if necessary. There are more third shot drives but those are stay alive rally extenders. Not really an offensive weapon. Like the drive hit by JW in the video.
Maybe this vid is for people who know thos pros. You use first names and I have no idea which guy is which.
Appreciate you watching the video.
its alive
💯
The soft game is certainly not dead, but very aggressive players that play the speed game are coming up with impressive wins against the elite level, slow players
The fast game can win - until it runs into the slow game juggernauts at the top.
@@BestPickleballCoach Tardio and Daescu have had two wins just this year against the Johns brothers playing the speed game, with Tardio speeding up every chance he got. Alshon, and I think it was Navratil, have also had a win this year against the Johns Brothers playing extremely aggressively. The game is changing. Even before 2024, it was always the aggressive doubles teams that came closest to beating to theJohns Brothers. Now in 2024, more teams are going all in on that strategy and thus in just a few months we’ve already seen three losses.
@@woodsonsanders1112 you are thinking of Ben Newell and I cannot remember his partner right now. They beat the Johns brothers by just hammering balls at them. Tardio plays amazing and has the hands to challenge with flicks, but the majority of their strategy is still the soft game. That is the point. Maybe one day it changes, but for now the winningest strategy in our game - week in and week out at the highest level - is the disciplined soft game play executed by these teams.
@@BestPickleballCoach lol, no it wasn’t Ben Newel. He hasn’t even been playing PPA tournaments. Look it up you’ll see Im right. Nothing you can say really account for the fact that the John Brothers have been beaten three times in the last couple months by a kamikaze, aggressive play style. You might wanna go back and watch those matches.
@@BestPickleballCoach the loss to newell was a year ago. I’m referring to 2024 matches. And not including the match where Colin was injured. Can’t remember if that was early 24 or late 23.
I mean this is fine but it is nothing definitive. Obviously we all know the soft game is not dead. But you are cherry picking specific points to highlight your conclusion. You have not looked at statistics to see how the game is evolving.
Many players think that the soft game is no longer a viable strategy in pickleball. Seeing the top players use it effectively to win big matches allows these players to think a bit differently about the soft game as a sound approach to the game. We looked at stats all the time. If there are statistics that you think merit consideration, happy to check them out.
The soft game is alive and well.
✋
Let’s agree that Ben John’s and Collin John’s have lost their last two doubles matches against Andre Daescu and Gabe Tardio. Maybe you had some confirmation bias when you made this video…
Am a big fan of Daescu and Tardio. They are playing amazing pickleball - using the same strategies highlighted in this video. I believe Daescu may be the single best male doubles player right now. He is playing an amazing brand of pickleball and having success with multiple partners. Tardio is an amazing prodigy and is learning a lot playing with Deascu - allowing Daescu to dictate the strategy. No confirmation bias in the video though - the facts remain as stated :).
They’re the best doubles players.
Yes
If we pretend these PB are “athletes” 🙄then we can pretend rec players are athletes too? 😀
I agree with you that they are athletes. Appreciate the concurrence.
@@BestPickleballCoach concurrence with the qualifier “pretend.”
@@frankfurter7260 seems like an odd waste of your and my time frankfurter.
Lol, sorry, but those are not the four best Pickleball players in the world. Ben is certainly the best, with fed a close second. Connor Garnett is in that conversation Christian Alshon probably also. The fact is there a lot of aggressive players that are vying for the very top spots now.
He said Ben, Colin, JW and Dylan are the four best in the world. Not the other 2 opponents.
@@kbrown1948 yes, I know he said that. And he was wrong about that. That’s what I was pointing out.
Those other players are awesome for sure. This video focuses on the best doubles players and those 4 are the best in their current combinations.
@@BestPickleballCoach Yep, you were clearly talking about doubles and not singles.
Connor Garnett now has the serving yips, falling fast.
All craps.
No idea what this means.
Soft game is on the way out
I think it's best to be able to do both. Soft alone won't work. Drive alone won't cut it either.
🤔