Batman v Superman: What Went Wrong? - Wisecrack Edition
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Welcome to this Wisecrack Edition on Batman v Superman: What Went Wrong? It’s no secret that BvS has drawn widespread ire for its issues with plot and tone. So, in an effort not to dwell on the same issues, we decided to focus on another problem plaguing the film: its ideological failings. Many of the film’s cues are taken straight from Frank Miller’s graphic novel The Dark Knight Returns - a work that paints a very clear philosophical divide between Batman and Superman. But it's in replicating this dynamic that BvS starts to flounder. By exploring some of Miller’s key inspirations, we’ll unveil how the philosophical backbone of The Dark Knight Returns was adapted to Batman v Superman - with lackluster results.
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Written by: Tommy Cook
Directed & Narrated by: Jared Bauer
Edited by: Mark Potts
Assistant Editor: Andrew Nishimura
Motion Graphics by: Dean Bottino
Produced by: Jacob Salamon
© 2017 Wisecrack, Inc.
"Maybe the justice league will get it right" lol🤣😂
it does get "right". Am I right? (smirk) (sarcasm)
I am from future it didn't
They didn't XD
Cr GoGo hi they didn’t
@@princeszdd9828 yes of course 🤣🤣
idk where DCEU is going to end up.......
I think part of what messed the movie up is that they made it too early. The graphic novel shows batman and superman as have already been friends. Here its just dude vs dude you dont see any depth or emotional conflict in the fight until "SAVE MARTHA"
Ahmed Alhashimi
also the fact that they took too damn long to get to the fight.
if you're going to take that long to get to the point of tge movie a
tleast make the first 90% of the film enjoyable
Exactly, when I watch movies like Batman Superman public enemies and justice league doom, injustice 1 and 2 and especially the dark night returns and I see how much of a friend they are to each other when they have to throw down and to the point of death it really makes an impact on me seeing good friends, best friends killing each other even though deep down it is killing them.
also hey Slayer your high and mighty ruler didn't think to see you here
Who do you root for? The grumpy vigilante who keeps murdering everyone or the grumpy vigilante who keeps murdering everyone? WHAT A CHOICE!
Oh look another sheep commenting bout save Martha lol
Exactly in the dark knight returns the whole movie was about batman and superman. It gave them a legitimate reason to fight and even when all was said and done it shows that the two were friends cause Batman didn't put a mix that would kill Superman and Superman didn't say anything when he knew that Batman wasn't dead. Meanwhile we got a movie with Batman, Superman, Wonder woman, Luthor, Doomsday, Lois Lane in the tub, Churros, Supreme court, terrorists, Ghost dads, and Martha...I mean there is only so much you can cram in a movie before you lose the audience.
The movie was too early, took on waaaay too much and couldn't get people attached. This movie should have been the end of the Justice league not the begging. The start of the justice league should have been where the animated movie started (forgot the name but that shit was tight) heroes meeting one another, making fun of batman for not having superpowers until he shows them what a bad ass he is...WHY DO DIS DC...why do dis.
Another problem with BVS is that in Frank Miller's series, it was two old friends finding themselves on opposite sides of an ideological divide in which they both had valid points. In BvS that friendship wasn't there so the battle never had any meaning.
Yes
The friendship is coming after the divide
What friendship
Sadly, Justice League didnt get it right. LOL
Up Next: Justice League: What Went Wrong?
J Daniels I didn’t want my brain to get scrambled with JL. I should’ve walked out on this movie & that movie BvS
Sadly the studio didn't let Snyder conclude his story in Justice league, in which many things would be answered. But the path WB, made the whole dictator Superman and time traveling Flash scenes to be just weird and pointless. Lack of courage from WB that made the whole DCEU go to shit.
That's the major difference between DCEU and MCU. Marvel was clever and put someone to oversee the scripts (Kevin Feige), so the whole universe is (not perfect but) coherent.
Yes the film fell flat didn't get into my top 5 wonder what zacks cut would be like since he lost his daughter
@@Galvatronover Now we'll know
Trying to do what took marvel several films in two was the fuck up.
Jorvikson Yeah DC rushing to catch up is why they have done so horrible. Doomsday (who they absolutely ruined) is a villain for superman 2 or 3, when superman is established, not some weird team up movie. I was hoping for someone like Metallo.
Jorvikson guardians of the galaxy set up a team decently well in one movie. They could've made a believable team up movie if it had a better script/director
The Martha thing was just a cheap way to get out of Batman's whole "Superman's a threat to the world that needs to be stopped" vendetta.
Jorvikson Boom
krdecade47 those characters in guardians couldn't quite hold their own as solo acts, they work together as a team, a team whose stories are interesting as a collective, not as much so apart. Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman should be able to both work as a collective and as a solo effort, that's why it took like 4 movies before the avengers for the effect of "individually incredible heroes coming together to make one group" to work so well, and feel so significant. I have no idea why DC just jumped in so quick. Hell, they could've done Man of Steel, Wonder Woman and a Batman movie before it was time for BVS or Justice League, but they rushed into the collective idea way too fast. Batman v Superman was the FIRST time we were seeing Affkeck Batman, so the movie had to introduce him as well as tell a separate story, it just gets super messy. And while Guardians is an example of how you can make a team work in one film, Suicide Squad is a good example of why you can't
I still severely dislike the notion that a good person wanting to do a good thing makes them boring. This honestly should be DC's bread and butter; their heroes SHOULD be larger-than-life inspirations. It worked in the comics with "What's Wrong with Trust, Justice, and The American Way?" and "All-Star Superman," and it works great in Captain America and Wonder Woman movies. Some heroes should be dark, but Superman is not one of them.
GentlemanDemon doing the "right" thing really depends on individuals. Doing the "right" thing in the context of a war movie is easier than what BvS tried to do
Duh guy My phrasing was a little poor, given how morally nebulous the word "good" can be. Overall I think BvS would have been better if both people had more consistent moral philosophies for which they were fighting for and we're trying to be examples (pretty much what they were talking about in the video). Batman has a good motivation, but sometimes they made it seem like he got sadistic pleasure outing beating the shit out of people instead of just doing what he felt was necessary to ensure justice, and Superman had almost no character.
GentlemanDemon cool
Yeah, Donner's movies are a proof of it. And more recently, the fukin Wonder Woman is the proof of it. We love Sups for being a do-gooder, and we want him to stay that way. I think WB has realized it by now.
Kirill Nielson not really. You don't know if that was the intended direction already and there is the difference between trying to do good and wanting to do good. This Superman tried and wanted to do good but it comes with its own set of conflicts which I don't think should be ignored.
I think the creators of this video put more thought into this stuff than the filmmakers
Wrong
Superman could have just as easily said "save my mother" and it still would have had the same effect on Batman and it wouldn't sound so ridiculous
Hey I know this comment is old as fuck lol but I thought I would put some insight on why he says save Martha rather than my mother. First of all, Batman right before he is about to kill Superman talks about how his parents “must’ve taught he meant something” or whatever he rants about. In that case, Batman clearly shows he doesn’t give a shit about Superman or his parents. So if Superman did say save my mother, Batman would just say “no. I don’t care about you or your mother”. Secondly, Superman is from space, at least not from earth, so again Batman would probably reply to that as how tf am I gonna get to space and save his mother.
Superman saying save Martha also humanizes him by stating her name since it’s a human name and Batman doesn’t consider Superman human (you’re not brave. Men are brave). And so this shows that he actually has a human mother. Luckily, Batman’s mothers name is also Martha, so this causes him to get confused since his parents are constantly on his mind (as seen in the nightmares previously in the movie).
It also gives him a chance at redemption: he wasn’t able to save his mother when he was young, but now as Batman maybe he can save someone else’s mother and allow him peace for not being able to save his own mother (kinda like Andrew Garfield saving MJ in no way home).
No, they didn’t stop fighting because their mothers has the same name. It had to do with Batman realizing what he was about to do (kill Superman) and seeing himself in the mirror for once and how far away from his moral code he had gotten (the no killing rule)
He said it because he obviously didn’t want to tell Batman it’s his mother ..that’s what secret identities are 😐
@@am_connor4914 it’s rly not that deep ..superman probably didn’t want Batman to know who he is (secret identities) ..but the last part of your statement was solid though
Martha
@@am_connor4914 Don’t apologize for commenting “late”. Such comments or videos shouldn’t be left unopposed if we can help it.
That's always been Snyder's problem. He thinks the more ideas you shove into a story the better it gets. I'd rather take a cohesive story with one clear idea than a muddled story with 900 ideas.
Hugo Joubert Or maybe the general bulk of the audience are sheep who are incapable of comprehending and appreciating snyder's intricate train of thoughts
Jeez man. I get people have their opinions but everytime I hear about the "main problem" with BVS it's always something different.
- the director
- the script
- the tone
- the ideas
- the execution of said ideas
I'm not crazy about the movie myself it's just, make up your minds people.
Ash S Buddy, if I want something intellectually stimulating, I'll read Ulysses or Crime and Punishment.
If I want to feel like an edgy emo teenager who thinks he knows what philosophy is, I'll watch Batman v Superman. There's nothing "intricate" about it, it's a self-indulgent wank-fest for pretentious snobs to pretend they're smarter than everyone else. Reality check: this is a movie about two dudes in spandex giving each other death glares.
Plus he never develops his characters or story. It doesn't matter how much intelligent philosophy is in your film is if the plot and characters are dumb. I mean Ayn Rand aside, did anyone think this was a smart film after the "Martha" scene?
Obviously different people have different tastes and interests and find different faults in something. There's not going to be a unanimous agreement to what made this film suck. Frankly I don't think there was a "main problem" this failed on a so many levels
"maybe Justice league will make it right"
Spoliers alert: no, it didnt
It's coming march 18 2021 mark your calendar
@@noobultrapromax7094 I hope you're right, I've got nothing against this movie...b ut I dont really think it will be great
@ShonenAce did you watch it
watch snyder cut
But then, four years later... it did
The reason for batman to fight superman is so flimsy. Shouldn't the worlds greatest detective look for facts about Superman before deciding to kill him?
Toledo Tourbillion He doesn't need facts. He's lost his faith in humanity then all his friends and coworkers are killed in his building and there was nothing he could do just like when his parents died. He blames superman for those killings and since he's incredibly powerful he feels he needs to be stopped.
Toledo Tourbillion And Superman believes that Batman is just a dangerous vigilante who is getting people executed. He doesn't realize that Batman is only turning this way because of Superman's presence in the first place.
Thank you someone who understands and ACTUALLY PAID ATTENTION!
A little late, but the Batman in BvS is the dumbest modern batman yet. Gets played by Luther completely. Doesn't dig up any information about Superman, but Luthor and Lois could figure out Clark's secret identity. Heck, even Luther knows Batman's secret identity (as revealed by Zack Snyder).
Focuses on Superman, but has no idea about other metahumans like WW, Flash, etc. Basically, all the future members of Justice Leagues was picked out by Luther, and Batman/WW just goes after them. So much for Batman being a leader, studying his enemies and putting a plan together.
Jonave: agreed completely with your first sentence. The problem is that the film needs you to believe there's some good reason for Batman and Superman to fight, and you just don't "feel" it. Rather, it's like Bruce Wayne just decides "you know what? I'm going to kill superman!" one rainy day when he's bored.
The fact he calls his mom martha shows he's rude
I mean in that scenario saying mom doesn't communicate information very well to the person trying to kill you. There's politeness and then there's practicality in the face of seeming immediate risk of death.
hockeater How was saying “Martha” instead of “my mother” more practical? God knows how many women are named Martha, but I’m pretty sure Superman knew that Batman knew his secret identity and that he was an intelligent detective who either already knew who Clark Kent’s mother was, or could easily find out. Face it, the writers just wanted to force this “deep” moment but it just came across as unbearably awkward just like most of the movie.
Oh no the movie is shit, the execution is shit, everything about that scene with the singular exception of that one word choice was shit. That includes what came directly afterwords. Would've been more practical still if got specific to the point of last names and pointed out the spaz that kidnapped her by name.
BRIAN SNIPES it was a joke...
Alex Oelkers Well you can never be too certain. Some poor souls actually defend this movie.
still dont understand why everyone thinks millers batman was so good those books were utter garbage and nonsense
I loved the first Dark Night Returns, I thought it was a much more mature and grounded take on the character from the normal. The second book can only be explained as Miller's drug-fueled fever dream translated to comics so I'll agree with you on that one. Never read the third.
Unhai x That book turns Batman into an insane cult leader and Superman into a government slave.
I hate those books and everyone who uses it as an example that batman can beat superman
Not to mention the way Miller treats Batman and Superman. Oh, and as an artist Miller is terrible in that department too.
"You're not a God. You're not even a man."
Yes, that is true. He is an alien.
You said it first. Batman hates illegal aliens he murders them with spears.
10:36 "there's ALMOST no ideological difference between Batman and Superman"
Wrong. Wrong, wrong wrong my friend.
Superman said to batman: you need to STOP this way of acting and settle things like you do with criminals, terrorize.
And Batman thinks: YOU need to die or be controlled for being extremely dangerous.
Sometimes i really think people wants to hate the fucking movie, no reason specific, just hate snyder and his movies, Since 300 in 2006. Because "huur duur he just dont know how cinema works, huur duur, know nothing about storytelling, look how intelectual i am"
ha ha
Snyder is a great director, with some extraordinary Creativity Hand, besides some flaws in directing acting..
Shawn Júnior He meant there's almost no ideological difference in the context of what he was talking about, especially when contrasted with the very big differences between B and S in the graphic novels, which are worth fighting about. in the sense he's discussing, as randian heroes, they ARE the same and have very similar approaches to choosing their destiny. the only difference left (and he did say ALMOST no difference) is what you mentioned- S sees B as being brutal and dangerous and B sees S as being dangerous. there isn't much difference left, is there? this minor remaining difference can be attributed to their abilities. anyone with the power of superman is a potential threat to every living being and any normal man fighting crime would need to do some shit like batman. it's hardly appropriate for S to kill B over this.
on the other hand, B does have a fair point about killing S, NOT because they're so different, but simply because S is so powerful. and B shouldn't have backed down if his reasoning was sound it shouldn't matter if their mothers have the same name but that's a separate point.
my point is that this video is not "wrong wrong wrong" in the context of their thesis, they explained very clearly why there isn't much difference.
He is a man, well he is not a woman certainly.
Except do you really want to live in a world where beings of great power simply take the law into their own hands and serve as the judge, jury and executioner? Would you feel comfortable living in a Gotham where Batman has more blood on his hands than the criminals themselves? What happens if that creates a bloodlust that leads him to murder people who are innocent? What happens when the innocent are caught in the crossfire between him and other criminals?
Would you feel comfortable living in a Metropolis (which, honestly, is a prosperous city regardless of the existence of Superman or Lex) where a godlike alien can just swoop in and fly someone into the space and leave them to die? It's easy to say that you would be okay with it when it's a criminal, but happens when they decide that the laws of man aren't good enough and we get an Injustice scenario?
But, one must also look at the question of redemption. Most recently, the comics of shown that people like Lex are capable of it. He's taken on the mantle of Superman and is using his intelligence and wealth to help those instead of harming. How long that will last is a good question, but it's still there. He's not the only one either. Harley Quinn is doing the same thing in her own series along with Poison Ivy. Captain Cold is there as well...He's shown that he can be a good guy when the situation calls for it. If Superman, Batman or the Flash had just decided that these people weren't worth it, that the chance to redeem themselves wasn't there, they would've ended them. But, they don't and that's a difficult choice as well. Does one choose to believe we can conquer our demons or do we just surrender to them?
it would have been more humanizing for him to say, save my mom, martha.
bvs is a mess to understand this movie you need to watch theory videos, explanation videos which shows that the movie had great ideas and great story but the execution was Terrible
The story and especially the execution both should be great
And movies
@@MorganLeodeMenezes no you just need a brain
Even if the movie was able to pull off the whole ideological conflict thing, it wouldn't have fixed the brotha-from-anotha-Martha moment, the let-Jonathan-die moment or, my wife's personal peeve, the fly-with-the-kryptonite-spear-that-paralyzed-you-earlier suicide moment.
adrenaline
Norb brotha from another Martha 😂😂😂😂
I don’t think they are saying that the intentions save the movie, more so the failure to execute this main philosophical renders the entire exercise meaningless. But yeah those moments wtf.
yep DCEU is beyond repairs now.....
*Why Did you Say That NAME*???
“Because, that name means we must be secret half brothers, and maybe my mom is still alive in smallville, but with amnesia”
“Knowing that name, means you can read minds, and access my past memories too. Holy hell, you are even more dangerous than I originally assumed” - *Batman stabs him
Those would have been just as logical as what they went with.
you folks must've had the best book reports in school
Phil majors doing work
This just makes me want to switch majors even more.
What went wrong...They forgot the 'Hero' part of Superhero.
You're joking, right? Go watch the freaking movie!
randian heroes are not real heroes
The Atomic Dom bing-fucking-o!
superman hasn't been this sullen since lex luther ran over krypto with his flying car.
Miguel Martins being a hero is more then just rescuing people while suffering from clinical depression.
he lacked joy, optimism, hope or happiness. All Star Superman is more Fun and he knows he only has 24 hours to live...Superman is more hopefull when he boxed Doomsday to death in 1992...
Shawn Are real life heroes (people that save lives) always optimist and smiling at everyone? NOPE! Do you take anything from them for not doing so? NOPE! The Superman caracter in MoS and BvS is trying to understand who he's and what's his place in the world, in my opinion, it was perfectly well done. As a fan of Superman, I was getting tired of the same shit every time there's a Superman movie, we never see him growing into the hopeful hero, he just becomes automatically that. I like that they took a different approach and I believe we'll get the Superman everyone loves now.
"There's something better than me ... I HAVE TO KILL IT!"
Miller's Batman has always sounded more like Lex Luthor than any kind of hero.
Honestly my problems with the movie was that like people have said. Snyder tried doing to much to fast. If he had made a Batman Movie first that showcased how Batman is slowly turning into the monsters he fights due to the hypothetically the loss of Robin *I still refuse to belive Snyder killed Nightwing* the Robin that's dead is Jason Todd. Because he wouldn't allow himself to greive Jason's loss. This coupled with Barbara becoming Oracle.
bvs is a mess to understand this movie you need to watch theory videos, explanation videos which shows that the movie had great ideas and great story but the execution was Terrible
The story and especially the execution both should be great
And movies
For me it was Snyder's dark vision for the DCEU. It was just too moody and dark. Also the title was Dawn of Justice which makes us want to see Batman and Superman teamed up so they can have a Justice League movie.
And the dark and broodyness of superman makes him feel like batman 2 instead of superman. He isn't cheerful, righteous, boyscout, doesn't joke, doesn't stop mid-fight to help citizens, nothin. Just broods.
bvs is a mess to understand this movie you need to watch theory videos, explanation videos which shows that the movie had great ideas and great story but the execution was Terrible
The story and especially the execution both should be great
And movies
@@MorganLeodeMenezes they are ambitious failures. They are reaching for things which are interesting and admirable, but some how fell apart. I admire that in filmmakers who try and fail, then those who don't
@@MorganLeodeMenezes the Ultimate Edition is the best thing that could have happened to the movie
Charles Puruncajas
The ultimate Edition which is garbage?
Superman: A god trying to be a man
Batman: A man trying to be a god
This comment makes more sense than the video.
Spot on!
This point DESTROYS this whole damn video
Thats brillant.
Bro this quote literally summarizes the whole point of BVS.
"Mabye justice league will get it"
I don't have the lung capacity to laugh as hard as I should to that statement
the truest statment!
Saad S well with geoff johns and changes starting with WW it will be great
Considering Snyder isnt on the project and Joss is there doing major character reshoots, I know Justice League will be better
I'm from the future. It was shit, someone should owe u money.
Hayden Wishba , it wasn't that bad man.
There's no need to make Superman relatable, he already is. They just need to stop making Supes into someone he is not to appeal to haters
SuperJYLS part of the reason I kind of really like him (eventually) in Justice League. Suddenly he can smile, crack a joke, and doesn't feel all guilty about saving lives.
Tyrant-Den but it feels forced
It's sort of sad how many other people can do the do-gooder/super-strong thing right (My Hero Academia, One Punch Man, Captain America, Smallville, the Christopher Reeves movies), but the current WB DC just can't figure it out. Doesn't help that they gave it to Snyder, a guy who doesn't believe in the possibility of a hero like Superman. Superboy aka Conner Kent would have been a far better fit for him.
SuperJYLS, and that's why Wonder women was successful.
It was an honest movie. It was the superhero we want.
Magalinnda Clavien Amd it felt a little rushed. He wakes up and goes into a berserker mode, then he’s suddenly a benevolent nice guy. It would have more prudent to use the Return Of Superman template to show that he grew into his idealism rather than just jump from A to Z. But I knew it was gonna be rushed when I saw the running time was only 2 hours. A 3 hour hour movie would have filled it in just like the 3 hour BvS did.
5:52-5:58
This is what so many people and hack writers get wrong about Superman: You are NOT supposed to relate to Superman the same way w/ heroes like Batman. Superman represents an ideal, something that we can strive towards. Think of people like Mother Theresa, Fred Rogers, or MLK Jr., and how we put them on a pedestal b/c of the content of their character which represents some of the best of humanity yet most people wouldn’t say “I can’t relate to them”. Instead they inspire us to be better. Same w/ Superman. Now some might argue that Rogers or King Jr. weren’t aliens w/ near God-like powers like Superman. True, but Superman is still similar to them b/c of his positive upbringing by imperfect, relatable, wholesome, and morally upright *HUMANS* (The Kents). Its b/c of this upbringing that Superman uses his tremendous powers selflessly for the good of mankind. Its also b/c of that imperfect human upbringing that Superman displays the imperfect and familiar human traits which is why Superman/Clark Kent is shown to get annoyed, angry, jealous, happy, and embarrassed. In short Superman may not be relatable in the sense that WE most likely will never have near God-like powers/skills, but we can still strive towards other moral, inspirational, and positive aspects of his character. And anyone who says that would be boring to watch has never watched Superman: TAS or All-Star Superman.
Spot on about Superman. An inspiration and ideal to strive towards, not tear down or belittle.
@Christopher Hadley He is however a savior figure. He's technically superhero Moses, but honestly being one of God's top guys isn't a relatable position either. Or to quote the corollary to Clarke's Third Law, "Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God."
Agreed. Superman isn't supposed to be as relatable as Spidey and Bats.
bvs is a mess to understand this movie you need to watch theory videos, explanation videos which shows that the movie had great ideas and great story but the execution was Terrible
The story and especially the execution both should be great
And movies
All-Star Superman or TAS makes Superman relatable, that's literally the point. Yes, Superman represents an ideal, but he is relatable because of the humanity he shows, and the best comics depict this the best
What DIDN'T go wrong?
Ben Affleck
Ben Affleck of course.
And Wonder woman! She was my favorite part of the whole movie.
The Ultimate Cut is at least paced well and has a good tone at times.
It's good for when you can't sleep. I dozed off in the theater.
why is it that when people critic this movie, they seem to mis out on some important details such as how batman has forgotten the reason why he became batman in the first place and how he has been consumed by his demon
I think it's because they don't want their heroes to have human issues.. they just want perfect heroes who never have to deal with internal conflict. It's why Superman isn't allowed to evolve from Big,Blue,Boyscout.
Alfred brings this up to Bruce in the movie
Dan Dillion agreed especially in the extended edition they explain why Superman couldn't see the bomb in the wheelchair
Because those aspects are fan inventions not even slightly alluded to in the film and are in fact contradicted by things like showing Batman's origin for the one millionth time?
Did you even see the extended version? they literally spill out lots of them, Batman's dreams, chats with Alfred and even headlines in the newspapers say it in big letters.
The way I saw it was a story of finding one’s self. The fact that Soops goes from reluctant Saviour to doubting his life to sacrificing his life for a cause he truely believes in. The way Bats goes from self righteous anger tinged with self loathing, to someone who fights for someone else, someone who he saw as an enemy. The fact that at the end of the movie, Bat now suffers real guilt, not the spoilt brat kind that has driven him since his parent’s death, but a true selfless guilt of someone who now wishes to help others because it is right.
I see growth in the characters, a changing of motivation, of ideals. Even if you feel that their actions don’t change, the reasoning behind those actions do
bvs is a mess to understand this movie you need to watch theory videos, explanation videos which shows that the movie had great ideas and great story but the execution was Terrible
The story and especially the execution both should be great
And movies
Pls don’t call him that
It’s Superman and Batman. What is not to love, stop looking so deep. Don’t tell me the scene which Superman stops the bat mobile was not dope.
No. It was not dope. It was a cascade of stupid decisions that ruined the historical moment of the first scene between the live action superman and batman. The one thing Superman knew about Batman at that point is he goes after criminals. Instead of stopping the people Batman was chasing, he chooses to stop Batman. Then Batman does nothing to resolve the issue or convince Supes to go after the criminals. Then Superman, despite apparently thinking Batman is a danger to the public, doesn't bring batman to the police and instead flies off. And Batman does nothing to continue chasing down the criminals after Supes flies off.
As soon as the two lock eyes, justice and stopping crime takes a back seat to dick measuring. Not dope.
No hate toward Zack Snyder as a person, he has my respect and sympathies as a person, but I think "What Went Wrong" is as simple as he's a bad storyteller who didn't know what he was doing and doesn't get the appeal of these characters.
The Ponderer agreed (p.s. I like your screen name and avatar)
Yeah, this is the same guy who has gone out to say that he cannot bring even himself to take superheroes seriously. I remember him talking about his Watchmen adaptation, and he was all like "Wait a minute... This scene from the comic shows two guys in costumes and masks having an honest conversation with each other. That's silly! Keep it out of the film!"
Lugbzurg surprise surprise, he said almost the exact same thing about BvS. If you don't trust the material enough to figure audience will appreciate your point when the characters are in costume, maybe the costumes aren't the problem.
The rooftop scene with Daredevil and The Punisher certainly comes to mind.
I think he's to focused on creating overly dramatic moments (i.e. save martha) and doesn't pay much attention to the context or character development thats supposed to lead to said moment.s
Jesse Eisenberg as Lex Luthor comes to mind......
fuckin jesse eisenberg man
Andrea Rupe Agreed like the real Lex would NEVER do that Granny's Peach Tea bullshit
Artydomi this is a statement from someone who has never read comics.
Eggs Benedict Cucumberbatch The cherry starburst bullshit scene also comes to mind. From someone who has read some comics with Lex in them, that scene was impossible to watch
His personality and behavior was closer to some C-list villain Toyman than "Lex Luthor, super-genius archenemy of Superman". None of the charisma, narcissism, or careful planning. Just off-the-wall random quirks, a weird absence of his trademark ego, and a master plan that runs on nonsense.
Killing superman in one movie? No thanks.
how about killing Quicksilver in one movie?!
that seems legit! - _ -
DUDE
Learn to appreciate both Marvel and DC
@@DSECYashasVasudev imagine comparing the impact that SUPERMAN has on DC to Quicksilver on Marvel
@@DSECYashasVasudev Only one is the Most INFLUENTIAL superhero of ALL TIME and the other is a flash ripoff....
@@DSECYashasVasudev how could you even compare these two ?! and plus, I get more feelings from the death of Quicksilver than that of Superman in BvS. And that makes the real difference.
@@diegodelafuente5056 Oof. DC fans always say that to marvel characters who are even remotely similar. 😑😑
Now do: Justice League: What Went Wrong!
Miguel Lopes Rodrigues yes! Lol I really hope they do this
Catman VS The Crimson Chin was better.
TheRareOne am I the only one who knows who that is?
TheRareOne okay, so the crimson guy is definitely from fairy oddparents, but where is catman from? same show, or was it an actual semi-crossover?
It's the same show, in an episode Timmy wished Catman (voiced by Adam West lol) into the comic book world where Catman ends up fighting the Crimson Chin to see who deserved to watch over Chinopolos.
TheRareOne R.I.P. Adam West.
LOL
"Jonathon Kent here dismantles the notion of selfless heroism. There's simply no point to being the classic, selfless do-gooder Superman because there will always be another flooded farm you couldn't stop."
And that insipid idea is why this movie did not work. Any mature adult realizes that even if you can't help everyone, there is a point in doing what you can. That line encompasses a Perfect Solution Fallacy; if you can't save every farm, you shouldn't save any farm.
Let's examine that logic using a different objects. If you can't cure every patient, you shouldn't cure any patients. If you can't put out every fire, you shouldn't put out any fires. If you can't stop every crime, you shouldn't stop any crimes. Has it fallen apart yet?
That is always in the background, an annoying thought that the audience can't put into words but which makes them feel annoyed at the film. It's why the Donner Superman is still watchable and Snyder's Superman is unpalatable garbage.
how stupid is ur logic exactly? that is not even remotely close to what jonathan said
I'm not going to get baited into an argument with someone who just wants to be insulting. I'll instead just let your comment speak for your intellect.
But since you want to ask a question, I'll answer it.There is an actual discipline called logic. It doesn't mean what you seem to think it does. Two things have the same logical structure if they use the same rules, even if the things spoken about are different. A "Perfect Solution Fallacy" is an *informal* fallacy where you reject a workable partial solution just because it isn't able to solve every difficulty.
Thus, the following simple syllogisms (look it up) all use the same logic, even though they speak about different things: 1) All men are mortal. Socrates is a man. Therefore Socrates is mortal. 2) All cats are mammals. Fluffy is a cat. Therefore Fluffy is a mammal.
Not the same logic? Sometimes when you call someone stupid on the internet, you're the one who looks foolish. You just called someone stupid on the internet. Therefore you must look foolish. That's bad logic. It's a hasty generalization.
But sometimes badly performed logic leads to a true conclusion.
oh i'm not insulting u, i'm saying u completely misinterpreted the scene and twisted it to fit your narrative. In that scene, Jon Kent never told Clark to stop superman-ing, he said the exact opposite of what ur insinuating. Superman just came there after he witnessed all the death in the capitol and it almost broke him and drove him to the realization that he was doing more harm than good.
His father encouraged him to keep trying, he never implied if he couldn't someone that he shouldn't save anyone. That he needs a cornerstone to constantly remind him to keep trying his best
You started with stupid, and I quoted the video, not the movie. Therefore, what the -movie- said in that scene is not what I was referring to.
To be fair, it makes total sense from the idiot who decided to commit suicide via tornado. The guy who suggested letting kids on a bus drown to play it safe with Clark's identity. Jonathan Kent is a nutjob and his ghost wasn't much better.
But yeah, his mindset was just a mess. The conflict for Superman should be in struggling with the idea that you can't save everyone....but still trying to do so. Not going to the opposite extreme of saying "screw it" about people you don't know.
The thing that I like most about the film is that introduced these versions of Batman and Superman to each other in such a way that they discovered that they're really not that different from each other.
titel of the video: Batman v Superman: what went wrong?
my first thought: EVERYTHING!!!
Do the Truman Show !
Do the Truman Show !
Do the Truman Show !
Do the Truman Show !
Do the Truman Show !
Do the Truman Show !
watch the nerdwriter video on it
@Gabriel Martins Is it a Wisecrack video? No you say? Then it's inferior by default
MAH BRUDTHA
Wisecrack likes the Nerdwriter channel tho......
They're both really good.
Tru the Doman Show!
Tru the Doman Show!
Tru the Doman Show!
Tru the Doman Show!
Zack Snyder understands Superman as much as I understand quantum physics!
Kevin Thomas yep
He doesn’t really get Batman’s ideology either
I Haft to disagree with that. Snyder admitted in the past that he wasn't a fan of superman. He had superman moup around in the majority of the film. He's not like that in the comics. trust me. This version is a carbon copy of Batman.
Noah Thomson+Snyder knows jackshit about Batmans ideology. If he knew anything he wouldn't have made him a psychopathic murderer. Also what was the fucking branding about?? You brand criminals so they get killed in jail? Wouldn't other criminals see that brand and say "Wow! That guy faced the Batman and lived! He usually murders people without a second thought. That dude must be tough! Don't F with him."
Rasheed Amir what you said is wrong.
This is a really good explanation of how close they came but ultimately took the wrong route by being uncertain
You know who else modeled themselves after Ayn Rand's philosophy?
The CEO of SEARS.
SEARS is now filing for bankruptcy.
Lmao you know nothing about Rand's philosophy.
@@bruno.6610 That it's not just incorrect but expressly evil?
bvs is a mess to understand this movie you need to watch theory videos, explanation videos which shows that the movie had great ideas and great story but the execution was Terrible
The story and especially the execution both should be great
And movies
Picture this...
I have run out of videos to watch so i refresh and then a wisecrack video smacks me
*instantly clicks*
Jim Bob You.. should really calm down, man.
Wait, wait...how is Batman the ideal egoist? His Playboy appearance is just for show, he uses his wealth to fight crime, and literally sacrifices his personal well-being and ambitions for the good of society (by fighting crime). He's not acting out of ethical egotism. at all, not only is he not champion individualism over collectivism, but he does the polar opposite of that. Sacrificing his individuality (and identity) for the good of the collective (Gotham). If you're looking for a Randian superhero...look to Iron Man, not Batman.
hosank Randists have to change how things look to justify their selfishness. Best example of rand society is still bioshock.
hosank Or is he? Is he not doing all that to bury the pain of his parent's death? I don't remember the comic but there was one which asked that question. If he were sacrificing herself he'd kill his villains, but as proven in Suicide Squad he doesn't do that.
wait, are you suggesting that Wisecrack is an Objectivist youtube account? Keep in mind that Jared (not Objectivists) are pushing the notion of Batman as an objectivist icon (despite the fact that the same channel's Batman video portrayed Batman as a neo-con)
Batman never looks happy. (im referencing the Nolan films here, not the comics) but at the end of Dark Knight Rises, Alfred is satisfied to see Bruce with Catwoman because he finally gets to let go of all his responsibilities and be happy for himself
Well said my friend, I have the same thought; especially in that part where he keeps Gotham in order under the EMP attack
“And hey, maybe Justice League, will get it right.” 😂😂😂
BvS isn't about collectivism v individualism, nor is it about existentialism v nihilism, those two conflicts are immanent but the film cuts deeper than that, it's about ideologies v humanity, when superman embodies existential nihilism and both collectivism and individualism, as he's transcending ideologies to become human, it's about seeing humanity in each other.
More like "What didn't go wrong?"
What a train wreck.
YahiroYamaha what would you have done different?
Craig O neill I think choosing Metalo as a must use villein alongside Lex would have sream lined the plot a lot. Since it would removed the need for Doomsday while giving Superman a mix of human and Kryptonian character to oppose him. Also that would have alowed Batman to join the final fight since he cant do much against Doomsday. Also i know shes not a good actress but i would have chosen Ronda Rousey as Mercy so Batman could fight her as well.
Craig O neill Simple. I wouldn't have made the film at all.
Even just straight out copy of Dark Knight Returns would have been so much better
YahiroYamaha
WB: Zack, we need you to make a sequel to Man of Steel!
Zack Snyder: Okay, no problem!
WB: But it has to introduce Batman to the DCEU.
Zack Snyder: ...Okay, that'll be tricky, but i can work around that.
WB: It also has to be a prequel to the Justice League movie.
Zack Snyder: Uuuuhhh...
WB: And, it has to be a retelling of both the Death of Superman and the Dark Knight Returns
Zack Snyder: It's okay, let me just shoot myself in the head
aka There's no way this movie could have been entirely good with such choices.
please do a philosophy of Full Metal Alchemist brotherhood
Brandon Anderson I second that
i third that xD
I don't thumb up easily, but I want this to happen so much that I will both thumb up and reply.
dew it
Yes!
I like your philosophical insights in your reviews. Keep it up. :)
*Spoilers*
Justice League didn't get it right either :(
#RebootDC
Yes
watrch justice league zack snyder cut
@@enkhuujinenkhtur3411 it’s not canon
Looks like WB listened to you
What made the movie dismissive or bad is not the theme, color tone (dark blueish filter), and not the director. Its the story, it have so much cram into it, too many sub plots. Just like Spiderman 3, but in this case, its not with too many characters, it has too many plots that made the movie uneven, confusing, and poorly paced for most audience. This movie should have been 3 movie at least. A Batman movie, a Superman vs Batman movie, and a Trinity movie
Gen Rai Have you not seen the ultimate edition?
***** yup!
So what sub plots are you talking about?
If you also watched the movie, you know there are plenty of sub plots in the movie, not just one. Just to be straight, the main plot is about the indifference Bruce have against Superman. The sub plot about the bullet and Lois investigating it, Clark investigating about the Batman, the corrupt witness that was killed in the end, the Lex plot, the plot of Clark searching for the answer if being Superman is the correct choice which was also the plot of Man of Steel, I guess it was settled in that movie, and so on. Those made the movie very uneven and jarring, that is why they have to remove so many scenes in the theatrical release. It's atleast 3 movies cram into 1.
Don't forget doing the origin of Batman once again, setting up Darkseid and the justice league through email, as well as Wonder Woman......
Finally!
A negative review that is not just "Ur dur, it's a dark movie."
Except it basically is.
@@RevJ7 yes but it still is a bad movie.
Intentions are nothing without execution. BvS failed so bad when it had to show and tell that there's simply no reason for the average audience to even care about even it really wanted to show and tell.
Just like it happens with people in real life, sometimes it is the idea of and not the real thing. The concept is not bad, what it ended up being... that definitely was. No amount of "in depth" reviews will change that. It's Perspective versus Reality... except you can actually tell one from the other.
@@tarnishedpose what do you mean no depth. This film is more meta and philosophical than people take it credit for. Bvs is about finding humanity in each other, learning that our psychological projections on people is twisted and sick. It says how the belief in the messiah is ridiculous, the truth is that we save each other. It's not about individualism v collectivism. It's saying how ultimately, embodying these ideologies makes us empty, like how collectivist superman doesn't feel himself and how individual Batman doesn't feel like a saviour. They both are empty but save each other by seeing each others humanity. There's also the public that put their own beliefs, Gods, Jesus etc and project it onto superman but ultimately put faith in him as a human. In retrospect, this DCEU has more depth in a single film than the entire MCU, arguably, in my opinion.
@@jyotektosgaimur awfulmovies.miraheze.org/wiki/Batman_v_Superman:_Dawn_of_Justice
@Ish Moore i see. But what would you define as execution? Sorry I just see this argument everywhere and i feel like im missing something on that side.
Ironically Captain America Civil War has the same essential conflict.
This was one of the best Wisecrack video so far.
*Looks at title...*looks at video length..... this video isn't long enough
I watched extended edition.... I loved it.
Same, this movie was ahead of its time the general audience didn't understand what the movie was trying to get across now it's disliked forever
@@GMYSTERYICTNF to be fair you need a high IQ to understand batman vs superman it's themes are subtle and nuanced and the average viewer can't even grasp its sheer complexity
@@zenituragaming5043 wow, big brain time.
Zack Miller doing an Ayn Rand book movie? I couldn't possibly hate that any more
5:00 "Smarter than everyone else" this made me chuckle because IIRC he didn't do any smart investigation in that movie lmao
What went wrong? They made it.
3 years late, but facts. Should've just been called Dawn of Justice.
It not wrong. Viewer are wrong. You are wrong. People alway want to expect the movie like there thought. Then why they watch movie create by others ?
Christopher Reeve is the Best Superman to date
For so many years Batman and Superman were such close friends. When they did Return of the Dark Knight I couldn't get my head around the idea that they would be so against each other. Their friendship fell apart after that. It was more dramatic for these two to not get along. Every once in a while they're friends but then something happens to get them at each other's throats. I did love the movie, so much so that it's one of my favorite superhero films. Maybe because I'm so into the comics that things made sense to me more so than the general audience. I don't know.
Wow what a great video, good job man really enjoyed it
Oh, the comment section that's going to spawn from this video...
i love this channel so much
+Emmanuel Marshall Love you too
Anyone who likes BvS, I implore you to at least watch the animated Dark Knight Returns if not read the graphic novel. It might put things in perspective.
Wisecrack thought this whole scenario through 100x longer than Zack Snyder did.
Superman was meant to have an arc taking him from individualistic to sefless, but they crammed it in with three other stories so that by the time his internal struggle was complete, his idealogical conflict with Batman was well underway, plus Justice League drama and dying thrown in the mix as well. A proper series structure might have looked something like:
Man of Steel
Man of Tomorrow: Superman's arc from act 1, maybe throw in some time travel shenanigans to keep us on the hook for Bruce's story
Batman vs Superman: The Dark Knight Returns adaptation, flesh out the time travel plot more
Dawn of Justice: Death of Supermen adaptation, introduce the League in a reasonable amount of time, plus explain the fucking time travel at this point please
Justice League, but it doesn't suck
I personally have a soft spot for this movie. I loved how they built up to the fight. It's just the reasoning of the fight and the extra fight shoved in at the end that sucked. This really should have bee two movies.
As for them being too similar, sometimes fights happen BECAUSE two people are too similar and don't realize it. Though the nuances in belief are different, the cores are the same. They see each other as corrupted versions of themselves, which adds to the anger.
This video was so on point that Zack just announced he would be adapting The Fountainhead!
I just can't accept the world's greatest detective would see a message from Aliens threatening to destroy the World, find out that Superman saved the world and killed one of his own people to save humans, research him for 18 months using his powers to save people and not abuse them to get rich or get girls etc; then conclude that he must die because he has a bad dream. LOL the only people batman knows that behave like that are his villains, and just in case the world's greatest detective is too emotional to see it, he has Alfred pointing it out to him, yet he still acts on his delusions and ignores facts.Other Superhero movies I enjoyed more when they keep reminding me through actions what I love about the character, but this movie didn't feel like the Batman and Superman I enjoyed reading in comics over the last few decades.
Wait, I don't get the Rand hero thing for batman. Even tho he's working by himself, he works for the citizens of gotham. It's still for the collective good. Unless they were going for the whole "batman vowing vengence on criminals for the sake of his own anger" thing...but then that wasn't shown well in the film.
I read the fountainhead. Roark is still different from batman. Roark wouldn't give a f*ck bout humans dying in his own city. Hell, he's probably kill someone if he thought it benefited himself.
don't get me wrong there are element's of rand's novel in the dark knight returns and BvS.(more so for DKR) It's slightly different however. It's not "collective good" vs "individualism" more of a "government" vs "vigilantism". The US government in real life would never allow batman to exist. They're too paranoid, and wouldn't allow a man to operate own his own against crime with so much power. They would try to take control of him or stop him entirely. People like batman in turn doesn't trust the government and for good reason. The government isn't perfect and their ideals will probably clash extremely often.
btw, this is a great example for why the MCU is doing better than the DCEU at this point. Right after BvS, Civil war came out with a similar concept, and even though they never focused on the ideologies much, at least they didn't stray away from it the way BvS did. I'm a DC fan but I'm also a reasonable critic and if we pretend BvS was perfect, the DCEU will not improve. I like Marvel movies. I enjoy them. However, it's mostly just villains and heroes making sarcastic quips at each other while having fancy cgi fights. DC movies however have more emotions and are far more ambitious. Good DC movies that is. Suicide Squad was a failure in every way while BvS had potential but flunked all of it. At this point, Snyder is coming off as a wannabe Nolan who has the right idea but is unable to deliver due to difference in talents and skills. Hope this changes for the next few DCEU movies.(Wonder Woman was a lot better though it was by Patty Jenkins)
50 Dollars All superheroes are Kantian in nature but since Ayn Rand is such a fervent advocate of Liberty and human exceptionalism -- writers like Frank Miller Alan Moore and Steve ditko can't help but bring Randian Objectivism to Immanuel Kant's self self-sacrificing wheelhouse.
It should've been described as more of a Randian nature than actual objectivism. For example, Bruce Wayne's insistence on helping the people of Gotham despite no obligation to do so, all the money in the world to lay back and get fat on a throne he was handed down, and without the help (and even being persecuted by) the state, echoes Murray Rothbard's ideals of Voluntaryism (an Auberon Huebert take on voluntarism). Unlike Rothbard, though, Batman is no anarcho capitalist and doesn't seek destruction of the state, merely partaking in some of these ideals. Batman has even gone as far as to go against ideals of individualism and liberty through things like his NSA level spy network surveillance that pops up throughout the comics and movies.
Please do Wonder Woman, Ares's motive is confusing.
he jus wants war that's his motive right.
Luo Hung Chun
Or why he chose to be the least powerful strategist
Also explain why, if Ares looked like David Thewlis in the flashback, someone couldn't have just given Diana a description of him, or drawn a picture.
"The World Wars are his plan to wipe humanity" beggin your pardon Mr.Ares, but if that's your plan you suck at it. Like most artists your early work was your best it might have gotten more flashy and showy as time's gone on, but I doubt you'll ever beat your masterful use of "Genghis Khan." Though I do have to question your use of the fall of the Roman Empire as they considered your close cousin Mars to be quite the guy. As far as "wiping out humanity" I doubt the world war's are in you're top ten. The second one appears to be 11 so good effort there.
Great episode!!
Everything.
SenseiJosh nope
@@thewitcherking937 yep
@@salaciouspancakes nope.
@@thewitcherking937 yes
@@frobsonsdesenhos no
Philosophy of spec ops the line and philosophy of Hannibal (tv series) please. Love your work
This movie had a redundant story, a LOT of time was given to side characters (the guy in the wheelchair, the african actress, LOIS) and not enough time for some superman HUMAN or Fun scenes, they could have used the story of superman agreeing to work with the goverment after the african incident ,Batman sees that as a "holy Fuck now the government has more power what will they do with it,invade nations? " and insted of the "Martha scene " how bout sending KG beast to make sure Batman kills superman and making KG want to kill the god himself ,interupting the fight and Batman realizing he Fucked up
This is the explanation I was waiting for
The more I watch these videos the more I love the movie
“Maybe Justice League will get it right”
No the fuck they won’t
Do Iron Fist next
That show had so much potential, and even though it has some redeeming qualities, it just didn't work...
Wow- this is an excellent analysis. Helps to make sense on a confusing movie.
Ever since I've seen it two or three times, I've felt that Man of Steel made Superman as close to human as you could. I enjoyed that portrayal of him the most, and Henry did a fantastic job. Looking at this (haven't seen BvS) it feels like it may have turned that on its head? Dunno.
What happened? Warner hired a director who openly dislikes the character of Superman, calling the character "boring" and "not as good as batman", to do a superman movie.
Then when the movie made an ok amount of money at box office, that same director decided to turn the superman sequel into a batman movie, and cut down superman's scenes so much that he actually has less lines of dialogue in his own movie than spider-man did in Civil War.
What went wrong really first comes down to the director chosen to begin this cinematic universe and his utter misunderstanding of what makes those characters so interesting to follow in the comic books.
Wanna make Superman relatable? Read some superman comics, see how they did it for the past 75 years. It aint fucking kryptonian rocket science for Rao's sake!
This. Not even the video gets it, stop trying to make Superman into something he's not to appeal to people who already don't like him.
SuperJYLS So tell me did you like Superman Returns? And if so why?
Renaldy Calixte
Mostly unsatisfying, there were great moments like the plane rescue and bank robbery but most of the film so somber and slow. Aside from the deadbeat dad aspect Superman is almost as mopey DCEU Superman.
That's my thoughts, why do ask?
SuperJYLS Because in my opinion Superman in that movie was sad about Lois but embraced by public after the plane scene. He was happy that he stopped the plane and smiled in front if cameras.
The movie was made in honor of the original Superman with the happy Superman. Problem is Superman HAD ZERO tension other than the bs Lois subplot.
Tom Gallagher - The Comic Book Cast dude Zack Snyder and never said any of that about Superman you're literally just making up shit. about him. I will admit Zack Snyder has his faults as a director but don't say he hates Superman when he's done nothing but talked on and on about how much he loves him respects him
The real problem is that they tried to mix objectivism and superheroes. That doesn't fucking work, unless the superheroes are punching the objectivists.
you are the only person to actually nail the problems of this film ,Thank You!!!!
The answer is simple Snyder and WB
Ehhh....
The entire movie should have been a movie about the tragedy of unnecessary conflict.
Even if drawing on frank miller's work, using Ayn Rand as a reference for "relatable" and "idealized" characters, The movie should have simply focused on how both batman and superman were not what the public, as an anonymous collection of individuals, perceived, and that neither batman nor superman had control over their own Symbolism.
The unnecessary conflict comes into the show when the ignorant public perceives a conflict between the symbolism of Batman and Superman, and constructs a false narrative that eventually leads to an unnecessary conflict between superman and batman based on those false perceptions, which neither can avoid because they do not control how the public view perceive them to be.
Ideally, you could then make an interesting movie while distancing yourself from Ayn Rand.
Hollywood Loves Ayn Rand too much. She's tailor made for movie trailers that start with: *_In a World of unimaginable horror One man will step forth... etc_* I think BVS: Dawn of Justice would have worked out better if Ronald Reagan or his nearest equivalent was the villain instead of Lex Luther.
Jared: Maybe justice league will get it right! :D
Jared: *after watching justice league* well.... f*ck
Now THAT was the best explanation I have ever seen and heard.
how are they still milking this movie for articles and youtube videos damn everyone is still talking about it over a year later
Nailed it. The conflict between BM & SM don't truly exist in the movie. They tried to advertise it, but it just wasn't there. You have to tell the story of why there's a conflict between the two so the audience can feel like they have something to fight for... Whichever side they "choose" to pick... And THAT, is what makes graphic novels/comics awesome......
I don't feel their is not a conflict. Because If I was in place of batman 🦇 I would rather give my life to kill superman after the point his people died. It's still true that every disaster in snyder universe is because of superman or people related to him.
Do one full metal alchemist
And I love your guys work
You pretty much nailed this one!
Batman didnr brand them so they wud be killed in prison.If u paid attention in the ultimate cut,It was lex who hired a guy to kill that dude in prison to make it look like Batman orchestrated that.
the video meant that batman doesn't care if the prisoners died, not that batman hired those killers and that he made some deal with them. knowingly sending people to their death is still ethically wrong, and can be considered as manslaughter.
@@rohithpotana356 he didnt send them to their deaths.Arkham asylum isnt a place he sends people to be killed.If he wanted to kill that guy he wud hav dne it cos the movie established he doesnt care if criminals through his act.
@@Ebbystein there's a scene in the movie where Alfred confronts batman about him branding criminals and those branded criminals beung killed in prison, and batman just replied with "we're criminals Alfred, we've always been". Zack Snyder confirmed to the press that his batman doesn't care if they get killed, he'll still brand them and send them to their certain death cuz he thinks their blood is not on his hands. Batman didn't hire the killers, but he's still making a conscious decision to send these people to their deaths, even Zack Snyder agrees with this. And the movie never says that batman orchestrated it, it just shows batman to be reckless.
@@rohithpotana356 That conversation was only about his branding not them gettin killed in prison.The newspaper liiterally headlines ,the bat brand of justiice, thats where he said we are criminals .True he was reckless but he didnt brand them to get killed off in prison.if it were so then all the prisoners of The asylum wud hav killed each other.and where and when did Zack say that? He only said Batman kills were by proxy.
11:34 At least as CinemaWins and others have pointed out there's the theme of Batman realizing that if he kills Clark he's become a mere paranoid xenophobic murderer.
So teaming up instead of being an increasingly morally compromised lone wolf makes sense.
bvs is a mess to understand this movie you need to watch theory videos, explanation videos which shows that the movie had great ideas and great story but the execution was Terrible
The story and especially the execution both should be great
And movies
Last time I was this early DC made good movies
the Colossal Titan you mean 9 years ago when The Dark Knight was released?
5:30
He legit explains his reasonings for it in the movie dude. He says "If there is a 1% chance he is our enemy we have to take it as an absolute certainty" he has this outlook on the world because he has seen so many people go bad
Great insights again Jared.. Agree on that is it a "good mess".. I just need to watch it every so often because mostly I love all of the actors.. and what a Gal! I can't get enough of looking at her.. it's funny, your spot on in that..
with just a couple of alterations I too feel that it would have worked out quite well.. that suspensed themes angle was quite interesting actually and will probably be re-rendered in a fully complete thought out to the end form so as to have the essential sensisble impact
There's a few things this review misses, but most of Jared's reading I agree with up until the conclusion. Ultimately, BOTH Batman and Superman meet in the middle, not just Superman. Whereas Superman slowly comes to accept individualism as valid, Batman ALSO begins to see collectivism as valid. Yes, the Martha revelation during the fight was poorly executed, but this is the moment that Batman feels true empathy for his ultimate enemy. Reliving the pain of his own mother's death, he decides that he cannot inflict that upon another living soul, and instead begins a quest to help Superman no matter the cost to himself. This is completely at odds with who Batman was the entire time right up until this point.
The film simply wants us to respect that there will always be an eternal struggle between the two philosophies, and also see that it is OK to change your mind based on the situation and your personal experiences in life. Dogmatic adherence to Randian philosophy would have had Batman end Superman's life then and there, resulting in the rest of humanity dying to Doomsday due to their inability to come together to meet a critical challenge. Similarly, succumbing to pure collectivism would have seen Superman lose the only things that made him human: Martha and Lois. Without that, you end up in Batman's post apocalyptic vision wherein Superman becomes an absolute dictator. The film wants us to respect the balance between the two philosophies, hence the "This is how a democracy works. We talk to each other." line.
Brilliant explanation. I just wish a decent screenwriter had been tasked with it. I mean, Nolan was a producer. Did he not even glance at the script before clearing Snyder to make it? Execution was a appalling.
Encouraging such in-depth analyses and debates. I believe this has been one of the greatest successes of BvS.
Arun G Yup fully 100% agreed
Except for the way Superman is [resnted in BvS he is not a collectivist, so there is no conflict of ideologies. You do not need to meet in the middle if you both are on the same side.
Your explanation would work perfectly if batman wasn't someone who would kill people with a fucking machine gun
When they have you having to analyse a pivotal scene to understand what it's trying to imply instead of it being obvious since it's a key moment made for everyone to understand, that's what went wrong.
For example, the Martha scene.
SlavjanA If something requires you to think that doesn't make it necessarily bad. I understand most people just want popcorn action flicks and things to be spelled out in big bold ink, otherwise the movie is just bad. I tend to like a movie more when it makes me think about it and understand it for myself, like Logan for example. Otherwise the movie is pretty forgettable and not impactful.
The Uncensored Gnome Logan makes sense and has consistent (or gradual) character motivation throughout though. All of the subtext is available for analysis, but the surface level makes for a stable and functioning viewing experience. BvS expects you to pick it apart for two weeks before you're allowed to make a judgement on what the movie was even about. Mainly because it was so muddled that it basically asked you to put in whatever philosophy you want. It's like a Rorschach test. It's not actually saying anything, and by leaving it completely ambiguous, the audience can fill in whatever supposition or conclusion they want. It's classic Fake Depth. It brings up countless ideas it doesn't ever actually explore and expects brownie points for knowing they exist.
The Uncensored Gnome I understand what you mean, and I'm on the same boat as you, but no one goes in to see this film expecting it to be directed by David Lynch, of course I'm exaggerating but hopefully you get my point. Like I said with the Martha scene, it's supposed to basically show Batman realising that Superman is a man, has feelings, and isn't just a robot, which is something seen if the scene's analysed, but because it's not clearly shown, you got the meme.
SlavjanA True, true. I like the idea of the Martha scene but not the execution. There are several things that are just poorly executed in the movie which is my main problem with it. However aside from philosophical ideologies and the Martha scene, the movie can be understand. Batman doesn't like Superman because he views him as a time bomb. Here's the part about analyzing the movie though, and I get your point now, because Superman isn't campy you can say fundamentally there is no difference between Batman and Superman - they both operate outside of the jurisdiction of the law. Ironically they both hate each other for the same reason. They both think the other goes or can go too far without any restrictions, and that they are on the right side of it all...it's a beautiful lie they live in, thinking one is better than the other even though they are no different really. Batman views Superman as a world threat like a nuclear bomb with emotions, Superman sees Batman as an insane criminal no different than the joker.
That's my point, that's the beauty of it - of a movie allowing you to consider it as it happens or even after. You see the film in a new light or get this sensation that I can't really explain. For instance one of my favorite movies of all time is Blade Runner, I didn't like it viewing it the first time around as much as I did the second after I had time to think about it.
I do agree that some stuff may not be as clear for the casual moviegoer and that execution was poor in some areas however.
This makes so much sense. Thanks 👍
1:10 wow, comparing Sneider's Superman to The Last Temptation. Seems so obvious once you hear it but it never occurred to me. Great channel.