Poor running, flashing CEL, no codes (bad computer ground) - Toyota
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- In this video I’ll be demonstrating some test procedures for no communication and suspected engine computer issues. Most communication issues start with checking pin 16 of the Data Link Connector for voltage, but this video goes much further. I also have the chance to show exactly why I believe strongly in voltage drop testing, and why the ohmmeter will get you in trouble. A professional scanner and scope were shown in the video, but a simple code reader and DVOM would have worked just as well.
Engine Performance Diagnostics chapter 1 pages 23 - 25
Symptoms
- runs rough
- long crank/no start
- stalling
- no communication
- check engine light flickering, changing brightness
Fix
- clean and tighten corroded computer ground at engine
Tests shown
- how to check for communication with the PCM
- how to use the behavior of the check engine light as a guide
- determining if a no communication issue is related to another symptom
- how to verify the integrity of your scope/DVOM ground before testing
- identifying Data Link Connector (DLC) pins for testing
- how to check for voltage at pin 16 of the DLC
- how to ohm check for ground at pins 4 and 5 of the DLC
- how to use a scope to check for activity on a communication network
- using a wiring diagram to check for communication network issues
- using a pin voltage/wiring diagram chart to identify PCM power, ground and communication circuits
- how to perform PCM power and ground voltage drop tests
- how to perform PCM ground resistance checks
- how to decide when using an ohmmeter is required
Tools used
- scan tool
- lab scope
Playlist
- ground circuit problems
• ground circuit problems
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For more information on this topic, I have written a “field manual” called Engine Performance Diagnostics which is available at www.scannerdanner.com as an eBook or paper book.
Want even more diagnostic training? Whether you are a DIY trying to fix your own car, someone looking to become an auto technician, or a current auto technician that wants to get more into diagnostics, subscribe to ScannerDanner Premium www.scannerdan... There is a 14 day free trial.
On ScannerDanner Premium I will bring you right into my classroom at Rosedale Technical College. You will find page for page lectures taken right from my book as well as exclusive classroom type case studies. What is so special about these classroom case studies? I pull live problem vehicles directly into my classroom and we troubleshoot them in real time, using and applying the theory and testing procedures we learn during the classroom lectures. There is no better on-line training of how to troubleshoot automotive electrical and electronics systems anywhere!
Disclaimer:
Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, it cannot guarantee against unauthorized modifications of this information, or improper use of this information. ScannerDanner LLC assumes no liability for property damage or injury incurred as a result of any of the information contained in this video. ScannerDanner LLC recommends safe practices when working with power tools, automotive lifts, lifting tools, jack stands, electrical equipment, blunt instruments, chemicals, lubricants, or any other tools or equipment seen or implied in this video. Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, no information contained in this video shall create any express or implied warranty or guarantee of any particular result. Any injury, damage or loss that may result from improper use of these tools, equipment, or the information contained in this video is the sole responsibility of the user and not ScannerDanner LLC.
Hi Paul. I'm new to your premium channel, watched alot of your vids, it is amazing after being in this field for 25 plus years, i have been missing out on alot of important information. Thanks for the education!
Thank you Sam!
i guess Im asking randomly but does someone know a method to log back into an instagram account..?
I was dumb forgot my password. I love any tricks you can offer me.
@James Major instablaster ;)
@Alden Corbin i really appreciate your reply. I got to the site thru google and im in the hacking process atm.
Seems to take quite some time so I will get back to you later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
@Alden Corbin It worked and I finally got access to my account again. I am so happy!
Thanks so much you saved my account !
Wait. 2-3 hours of ScannerDanner would have saved the owner 2 engines, an ECU, and 20+ hours of labor costs??? Jeezum crow donniebrook nice work ScannerDanner.
Stay gold.
+dnl machine thanks friend
Been with Toyota for 15+ years and I detest these cases. Being a dealer, we are often the last resort people come to after every independent shop in a 30 mile radius has had their hands in it. It wouldn't be a problem if the customer didn't expect you to know the issue off the top of your head and only want to pay for minimum diag time. Anyways........ good video bro! I'm a little shaky with scope diag and your content helps a bunch. Gracious!
thanks man!
capt251978 engine replacement in my view junk engine creates too many problems with modern electronics controlled vehicles.outcome seems bad with anyone that I know that's done it .there are few scanner danners out there he's auto elect tech.most are hammer and screwdriver tecs.
Brotha this stuff is so fun and stressful for me. I appreciate this content and premium content im a mobile mechanic and I get a lot of cars like this and charging diag time is always a firey dance between me and customers puts a lot of stress on me to get things figured out
paul ive been a .A.S.E master tech for 30 years.presently working for a toyota dealer.mainly on asian cars. and yes cant emphesize enough the importance of grounds. specially the ones from a junk yard engine,so clean those grounds they can bite you later.paul i cathegorise you as a true master tech and not a parts changer. great job brother and thank you for the videos. you never stop learning in this great business.thanks again rick bauza.
It's crazy to think you live 10 minutes from me. I'm a mechanic at Jefferson Hills Lawn Equipment if your familiar with where that is, so I don't get to work on anything like you do but I really enjoy learning about diagnosing issues on the modern vehicles
Good video Paul, I especially liked the part where you explained the importance of voltage drop testing and how the ohm meter can mislead you. I also liked your example of showing how to verify that you have a good ground by going to a lower scale because current flow on computer grounds can be low compared to others. If you have 0 volts on ground you could have current flow, but due to the resolution of the meter if it shows just 0 volts this could just mean you have continuity to ground.
Finally someone that take time and does a good job in troubling shooting and good at what they do. See so many hacks that just swap parts. Pretty much had to deal with a 05 corvette that someone hack up that replaced PCM and body control module. When it was a bad ground that corrode at harness on top in front of engine. Usually you will have voltage at ground, due to floating ground, not always a cross over wire from another circuit, so seeing voltage at ground is common when ground is floated.
That blue temp light is normal when cold. When it warms up, it goes away. But if it starts to over-heat, then it turns red. Btw Paul, this video helped with a car my friend was working on.. No bs. I swear, this video that i saw a day after you posted it, helped me fix a 2000 accord with a no communication problem. I work at a Honda dealership and my friend was just about ready to throw a computer at it. Seriously Paul,God bless you! Thank you for your videos, i will always support you...
Thanks for the upload. If you were wondering the signal you were seeing at pin 7 of the DLC after the repair was an ISO 9141-2 signal. ISO 9141-2 is a "pull down" (approx 10-13v high and approx 0-2.5v low) type of signal running at 10.4K. I suspect if the vehicle had ABS you would have seen more activity on the bus even without the scantool connected. As always another great video, thanks for putting the time and effort into uploading.
First indication of a bad computer ground to me was the flickering CEL & dash lights
Great vid!
Awesome Paul, interesting you wouldn't think the computer grounds would draw enough current to drop voltage on the engine block via the attaching bolt. Also, thanks a lot for emphasizing when you do voltage drop test on a ground connection, when the ground under test can be loaded down with a load of some sort, makes perfect sense, thanks Brother for all your time, effort and enthusiasm on all your videos. It's greatly appreciated 🙂
Thank you!
Hey Paul, another great example of why loaded circuit voltage-drop testing is much more accurate than the standard ohm meter continuity checks. For the DLC ground pins 4 and 5, a test light (connected to B+) would be a quick way to load the circuit a bit and confirm the ohm meter readings...Happy New Year!!
For sure. Thanks man. Happy New Year to you too!
I felt like i was in class again thanks bro good lessons
ohm meter for checking grounds is only ever useful if you have a complete open ground or an extremely corroded ground strap.
Thanks again for all you have done and hope your good bro
Great video.I noticed that every time that I had weird and crazy stuff happening with a diagnostic process ,it is always a ground issue,
Holy heck! I'm dumbfounded. So knowledgeable. Amazing.
Thanks so much! I have about 600 more videos between my two channels. You've found the right place if learning more about diagnostics is your thing.
SCANNER DANNER, there is NO substitute
We're not worthy! We're not worthy!
Lmaooo
The Load Pro leads in conjunction with your existing multimeter work awesome for testing good powers and grounds, and you don't need to load the circuit, the leads take care of that.(for example, checking the integrity of that solitary ground at the dlc). It would be a great addition to your tool arsenal Mr. Danner. Oh and by the way, your knowledge is impressive, Thank you so much for sharing it.
Thanks man. I still prefer to use the existing load in a circuit but to each his own.
Great teacher, shows step by step,do and donts and (whys?); its in the detail
Thank you so much!
Paul, it amazes me how many people just replace parts instead of looking for/finding the actual problem, i mean a computer isn't cheap and the fact that the engine was changed 2x should have been some clue but you are a master at DX, you know the procedures.
Re. 'salvage' yard parts and engs your buddy ETG knows a lot about bad engs coming from salvage yards-- when i was young they were known as junk/bone yards and they didn't call them JUNK yards for nothing -- Hope he got a deal on the echo
Good video. Looked like a fun one. Often times when I'm checking an unloaded ground, like the ones on this DLC, I will connect a test light to battery positive, and complete the circuit through the ground I am checking. I verify the voltage on the ground by clamping my meter to the ground side of the test light.
This is why i ALWAYS clean power and ground connections with sand paper and apply a liberal ammount of dielectric grease before tightening, when removing on everything.
Yes it takes more time but then i am sure it will not be a problem for me now or the customer later.
Very often grounds is right on painted steel... Then i use my finger belt sander to get it to bare steel
Wow this has been 2 great videos.
I wish you would a do a - Scanner Danner How It All Started - video if you haven't already man.
You could have done so many other things like drive UPs truck or Rancher, run for president, doctor lawyer, banker, biker, surveyor, developer, concrete truck driver, Home Depot fork lift operator, Plane Pilot, all kinds of doctors and on and on but you chose diagnosing automobiles and teaching others what you have learned. Things that I have learned from you and others on youtube like you have helped me enormously to not have to take my vehicles and my kids vehicles to expensive auto repair every time they need something.
Some jobs you simply would rather pay someone to do like I put a rack and pinion in my 2000 Ford Windstar last Saturday and Sunday along with a power steering pump and some sway bar bushings. And I learned one thing about that job... I don't want to ever do another one. But I would LOL! Hopefully not back to back though.
The weekend before that I put front brakes and rotors on it.
I like to work on my own stuff. Nothing aggravates me more than stripped out screws from some guy using a very powerful tool on a bolt and over doing it. Some guy just almost ruined my oil pan plug threads once in Franklin NC where I got my oil changed out of town. They still held but had that bad soft never tighten up feeling.
And that's another thing. Never get the oil changed out of town or even a couple days before you go out of town.
I've seen oil changes cause engine failure with stopped up oil screens.
I use air tools to run things up and if they are delicate I always hand torque them.
If my air wrench isn't strong enough like mine at home. I run lug nuts on with a 1/2 inch impact and tighten them with a pull handle. But yea thanks for all your vids. They help people more than you know.
I will test the cam signal again but we did unplug it and crank the engine, I will test the DLC at the pcm and see if every thing is okay, I didn't touch it today but I will do on Monday, thank you for the replay.
I've never even heard of using an ohm meter to check grounds. I always use a voltmeter connected to the suspect ground and the other lead connected to known power. If the meter reads voltage I then switch the other lead to a know good ground and do a ground to ground voltage drop test. I'll have to use this ohm meter trick sometime now though! Thanks for this information SD. Now I know when to use what technique :)
that's awesome. I also live in the South Hills. South Park to be exact. it is a small world
Hey Paul awesome video, so much info!!!! Also that blue cool light is normal to be lit when the car is warming up. I guess because the car doesn't have a temp' gauge it lets the driver know the car is not at operating temp' yet.
Nice real time demo. I knew it was possible to do, just never witnessed it. Thanks. Also makes Me want to inspect that manifold ground. Anytime they use several metals Galvanic corrosion is likely. Thanks
you are awesome man do not stop your Video you lean all people in the filed world wide
my respect and greeting from Saudi Arabia
I know that this is a training course but would you have found the computer ground fault faster by using a brake out box. Brilliant video as always
..
Hi Paul.
Seriously enjoyable stuff. Thank you. I'm amazed that a mechanic would bolt an earth lead to a corroded ally housing like that. Amazed but not surprised.
Will you post the powers steering code fix and the coolant light issues whenever you can please?
RESPECT!!
Andy.
Sir Danner thank you for sharing this video to us. Very helpful 👍
No, voltmeter connection was battery ground to computer grounds.
This was a ground to ground voltage drop test.
Great video yet again, Mr. Danner.
Have you ever used a DLC breakout box? I bought a Line Spi from AESwave. It was worth every penny to be able to check the DLC while sitting down on the drivers seat.
Thanks for the comment.
And I love your user name!
Iam amazed by the amount of knowledge you share with us thank you sir
I have one question is a labscope mandatory to check for bad ground
Can u do the same test with just a volt meter and confirm a bad ground?
Yes you can
nice work gotta love the dim / flickering check engine lights..
yep. but that is a rule when it comes to changing any module. you always check main powers and grounds first
I feel so fortunate to have found and watched that. Thank you for sharing as I learned a ton today and I am not a car mechanic but have always wanted to learn more and would eventually like to work on my own cars. Wow is about all I can say right now. :-)
Hi Paul. Thanks for the video I really enjoy them. My question is regarding the non loaded ground pin you were explaining that ohm testing is necessary in this case, could I perform voltage drop on the ground using the "load pro" on the ground side. I know the tool does it but I'd like your thoughts on it as I think that's another way of testing that ground. Thanks
pins 4 and 5 used a different ground location than the PCM grounds that were bad. Loading those pins would not have helped ID the problem as they would have tested good.
Nice! Are you in the Pittsburgh area?
Paul @ 24.00 mins you discuss voltage drop tests for grounds. Could you show us if you just used the ohm meter to check the grounds? I persume you would have really high resistance?
Also like to say I have been looking at a few of your vids and enjoyed watching keep up the good work
I want to see more case studies like this, so I subbed for more!
thank you!
thanks you'rs was the only one that discribed the problem and fix it thanks again
same specs I think. Just more user friendly with the Verus. Oh and two more channels and alot longer of a buffer
In have in the past I used a variable DC power supply that has a voltage meter as part of the supply. With the components unplugged one can complete the circuit through another ground and gradually increase the amps through the power supply. Mine maxes out at 3 amps. I think all but very small wires would tolerate that amperage. The voltage drop can be read directly from the meter or across the supplies pins. This allows you to load a non powered ground. What do you think of this method?
paul when you were ckecking the grounds on the dlc was ignition key on or off
Great and useful video. I wasn't looking for this specific topic but man, I did learn a lot. I'm definitely going to watch all the study cases. By the way one of those VERUS tools is going to be in my Christmas list this year lol
+josuecrcr nice, check out the new Verus Edge. I want one so bad
Clear, concise and full of great information. Thanks for a great video!
The intermittent ignition heard from this engine, reminds me of an electric motor with worn brushes.
Excellent. I am sure your class is fun to be in.
I've got a similar problem on my 1996 E320, including the CEL not illuminating at all. I have replaced the cluster bulbs, and checked all my fuses....all in good shape. I also checked for power to the connection port, and it has power. I am sure I did not a thorough diagnostics like you did, but I tried with tools I had. I was hoping you can give some pointers, aside from what I have learned from this video. I don't want to spend money on an engine computer not knowing what is wrong first. Any advice is highly appreciated.
You had some balls to crank the car when it was clunking so loud. I would be afraid to blow the motor lol.
Hi Mr Danner.You are an American treasure in the field of education. You talked about a known good signal from pin 7 which was best demonstrated when you forced the scan tool to communicate with the datalink connector. the question is; how is it, that the signal is so lazy around 12 volts when the engine is running [ which certainly is a period of a lot of communication]. Also is this a canned bus system or another method of high speed [ bus ] communication.
This was at the school so no charge. But if I was in the field probably 2 hours of diag. time.
In the case study with the Toyota Echo, No communication, you weren't sure what a CAN BUS wave form should look like. I came across one on PICO's website. They have a library of good wave forms and CAN BUS is one of them. I just tried posting the site but UA-cam doesn't like it. If you go to picoauto . com and click on the library tab then click the wave forms icon. From there, just select the type of wave form you want.
02 nissan altima crank no start, no control from pcm to coils and injectors, good crank signal at pcm, and no communication with the scanner, power and ground good at the pcm. I don't think need to do more test, bad pcm? any idea thanks...
Paul your video was excellent at one point i think it was plug wire i think no vehicle can give u problem that u cant fix i refer to the Toyota echo please can u give me the best way to test plug wire.
Great video as always.
With regards to checking the 2 grounds at the obd connector, would there be risk of damage to the ecu if you did a voltage test with the meter connected to a battery live and dlc terminal?
Also, when checking control unit grounds and seeing 0v you assume the ground is good. But surely there is a small chance of an internal open circuit on that ground?
Mr scanner danner I have a 96 roadmaster with the lt1. I'm not getting any fuel pressure but I get a crank. I've changed the fuel pump, fuel filter ,fuel regulator, fuel relay. I hear the pump and relay activate but still no pressure. What the hell is going on??
Its very funny & fun When u ar doing videos with Eric the car guy! Please do more with Him!!
You are a legend mate 👌🏽 good on you👍🏽
Forget the ohmmeter. I just use my power probe to give power, and if the breaker over heats I know there is good connection/ground. Probably not what I am supposed to do, but the process can be used successfully do you think?
Hi Paul..if we donot have wiring diagrams, are there any colour codes we can rely upon for computer grounds and 12 volts..are these wire more thicker than the others???
exhaust rattling off of the floor board. probably related to the engine swap...twice
Paul, what if you did pin 16 to pin 4-5 to check for gnd, I have also learned much from Dan Sullivan and his Load Pro could/would have loaded the circuit possibly revealing the bad gnd through VDrop.
Is this a situation where you could use the "load pro" test probe to see if the circuit could carry the loaded voltage?
Yes it is
Hi, nice video.
My golf 2006 1.4 tsi twincharged having cylinder wash issue. It cranks & cranks but won’t start. I changed spark plugs, clean them after getting wet again, coils, clean all grounds, checked compression , then try again but spark plug gets wet instantly. I tried everything but no success. As soon as spark plugs gets wet, compression also goes down. Can you please help? Looking to your reply.
What are your compression pressures? Any timing related or cam-crank correlation codes?
Have you checked it for a completely restricted cat? (Remove upstream O2 and see if it starts)
ScannerDanner thanks for your reply. Compression stays over 130-170 until fuel supply is back on. It’s get flooded instantly, spark plugs are soaking in fuel, and I can see fuel on top of piston head after removing plugs. How to deal with overfilling issue if that’s the problem?
ScannerDanner after deflooding procedure, compression goes around 210 psi in 2nd 3rd & 4th cylinder. In first cylinder it’s around 150 -175 psi. During cranking after 7-10 seconds oil indicator starts to blink. I have located upstream o2 sensor, I will try to start it after unplugging it and update here. Please help me to sort out this issue, car has been parked for good 6 months, just wanted to sort out issue myself, and learn. I seen another video, guy with bmw e46 had same issue, plugs get wet, he tried everything but no use. In the end he changed oil pressure or level sensor and car started straightaway. During cranking , after few seconds oil sign starts to blink a n my car. Is the oil level sensor or oil pressure sensor same thing?
agree. just be careful with that 1.5a light :-)
Don't test any computer drivers with that one
Good video Paul! What would you charge the owner , up untill now without the powersteering issue?
I'm fairly new to your channel and have watched most of your videos and i would like to say i really appreciate and am grateful for the knowledge that you have imparted on us all on the operation and function of the automotive electrical components. I now have the basic understanding of most components and am venturing into the practical aspect of things. I would like to know if just having the basic tools such as a test light and multi-meter are enough to venture into the practical world of automotive electrical technician and does purchasing your book goes hand in hand with owning a scan tool that reads wave forms?
Venture in, yes. But it will only get you so far. Can you benefit and "keep up" with the information in my book and premium channel without a scope and scan tool? Absolutely! There is so much that I am teaching that goes beyond the tools you have. Ask around, read some of the comments on my website to start with.
Thank you!
Just got done chasing a no communication problem only to find out it was the Verus. It's having a problem with CAN vehicles so I gotta send it in. 2 freakin days I was pulling my hair out. Everything I would check was good
Thanks man! I'm not, but I appreciate the compliment.
Those 1NZFE are friggin awesome engines. Sad this one is going poop
Awesom job
I would like to give you 1 mega thumbs up.
thank you
Have you done any can system testing. I remember seeing one brief mention in one of the studies. OTC makes a neat tool that hooks up to the ADL which illuminates the 17 pins, confirms power and grounds and also gives a quick battery voltage read-out . The good thing about using it is the pin out test pins similar to a breakout box to monitor individual data transmissions in relation to the ADL pin location.
I guess my real question is have you done any studies to trace down com errors between modules and what methods have you found to be a time saver in the field.
I learned so much from you and now at 58, I'm backing away from the heavy line and pursuing mostly mobile diagnostics for other shops and used car lots. There is a high demand here in Texas and I imagine everywhere for the technically savvy.
Perhaps in your next book your could dedicate a chapter on can system analysis.
Just a thought.
Rick ASE Master Tech 28yrs
Premium member.
I have and there will be more CAN issues coming up. Until I have developed my own case studies on these, only then will I shoot some repair videos on the topic. I'll let the cat out of the bag though. There is no secret. It is still powers, grounds, opens and short circuit testing and unplugging suspect modules, then of course measuring the terminating resistors with an ohmmeter and checking for a mirror image on the CAN high and CAN low circuits (pins 6 and 14). More to come as I see them okay?
Your so humble and the statement is spot on imho, the more you learn the more you know how much you don't know. Once i heard what an expert actually is:
It is someone who knows more and more about less and less until he finally knows absolutely everything about nothing :)
with it's history given the dealer wanted no part of it so very basic thank you
Hi Paul. Do you have some information on negative voltage on grounds? How does that happen?
a slight negative voltage is normal and it depends on the location of your ground with your meter (battery negative, engine block and sensor ground)
Thanks very much mate. Keep up the great work.
Dan
I believe the blue temp light will go out when it reaches a certain temp
I believe you are correct
thank you for your valuable time to posting on youtube the video repair.
Pretty interesting that there is only 113k on the Odometer. That echo must of been abused and neglected for it to crap out at 113k.
You are God...
I wish some mechanics took your class.
thank you so much my friend.
Sir can make vedio on toyota Carolla2005 no communication.
i dont understand what the fix was for this car, what was the problem.
Ya, I live I the south hills. If you know where century 3 mall is I'm about 15 min from there
Good video ralking with the car i love it tnx PRO JOB
Hi Paul good video very interesting, if you don’t have access to the ECU probably buried inside the dash, how would you check your powers and ground loaded circuit?
If you are going to be "calling a bad computer", then you will be digging it out of the dash. You have no option, you have to do it, there is no bypassing this step on any car.
On checking the powers and grounds on a ecm inside dash, taking all out , are you able to start the vehicle to check them under load or just the switch on? How would you deal with abs bag ?
great job paul. great job brother.
Does These DLC specifications role for the Toyota vehicles?
I'm sure they've changed over the years, but in general yes, what was shown on this Toyota would be wired the same way on others.
looks simmilar to my problem but what my 07 mazdaspeed6 does is blows the fuse from ecm tried to trace the short and end it up by ecm ground cable i wish i could find someone talented with electrical knowlege around my area to deal with it
Amazing Video ! What would be your recomandation for a cheap osciloscope for starting this kind of looking at signals ? USB Osciloscope 20 MHz is ok ?
+bbogdanmircea www.aeswave.com/uScope-Master-Kit-1-channel-automotive-scope-p9273.html
I've done a few videos using this scope
ua-cam.com/video/ppActthRa70/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/Kr8TIc820SA/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/uU0Aw4kBiY8/v-deo.html
Thank you very much!
Thank you!
Paul, the old Modis with keys does it works the same as newer models, bidirectional controls live data and graphs? I’m looking at Ebay to try buy one, maybe $700? What you think?
Yes it does, exactly the same, just different hardware and probably isn't updated to the newest software but who cares, it's definitely worth it for the scope alone.
I spoke to Snap-On rep as she has one for 700 with 12.2 software so I guess it’s up to 2012, so with this I would be able to do the test you normally do, right? Being a diyer my self during weekends I guess I should be ok then.
This is the EEMS300 Modis
those flickering lights tells me to look for lose ground connection
Good teacher
thanks bro
hey dan i got a 2006 mercury milan with a new etb that still goes into limp home mode. any ideas
scannerdanner.com/forum/post-your-repair-questions-here.html