One thing that comes to mind is stamina. Shooting strong bows repeatedly in a short span will tire your arm and it is the arm you will use to fight after in melee. With a weapon like this, they could have the regular troops firing volleys right before engagement and they wouldn't have a sore weak arm to deal with in combat.
Im not a professional archer or did i shoot longbows, but shooting modern compound bows with some practise at 60-70 lbs is not that hard. And we are talking about farmers or manual laborers that had extra stamina. Also if they where fighting in phalanx formation there is no way the same guy was shooting bow and then went to form complex phalanx formation.
@@cactuslietuva shooting modern compound bows is so much easier than a classical one (including longbow). I remember going to a range with some friends, nobody had any issues with compound bows, but only few of us could fully draw a classical bow of the same poundage.
Thanks Tod for the reply. And to the other points. From personal experience, I used to shoot a modern 80lbs bow and I tried to shoot a 80lbs longbow because I thought it would be similar. Nope, nowhere close. I'd say it's about 3-4 times easier to pull a compound bow. As for firing fast without aiming, the faster you fire the faster you get tired. Ten shots in a row is a lot more tiring than 10 shots waiting a minute between each shot. Just look at the video where Joe Gibbs has to shoot a heavy longbow as fast as he can. Historical archery channel also tried to shoot a 125lbs bow fast. He's clearly tired. ua-cam.com/video/Ya6mjSycl0M/v-deo.html
@@SpiderGeometry did you have to look it up like I did or was it from memory? If it was from memory you are not a Sharpe afficionardo, but a full blown expert!
It's an intuitive weapon. If you released a couple of hundred practice shots into a target your brain will figure out the geometry just like it does when you're driving a car. Imagine 3 person teams, Loader, Handler, Shooter ...
I would honestly love to see a follow-up to this where you revise the Gastraphetes design such that you still get that easy load - where the user puts their weight into the machine to cock it rather than muscling or cranking the bowstring back - but incorporate shoulder-stock aiming and cover usage. Just as an experiment, like, "if Tod found himself in Ancient Greece and somehow able to speak Ancient Greek, how could he earn his keep by improving weapons the locals already have, simply using innovations they haven't discovered yet."
@@tods_workshop It _really_ would be - and an interesting thought experiment. "Knowing what I know about the history of technology, how can I improve upon what is already being done/possible in (a given era) using only the tools and materials locally available." Carved shoulder stocks for crossbows would be one simple improvement that could be implemented _immediately_ over the simple squared wooden ones they used in most of the medieval period, wouldn't it?
@@tods_workshop Tod, I think this was used as fortress defense weapon. It would benefit tremendously from a swivel. Push it against a wall to cock it, put it on a swivel, aim from eye level. Snipe the besiegers at will.
We know it was shot from the belly because of the name? I don't see that this is the case. You load it with your belly - that's enough for the name. How about having the curved loading part on your belt, and a protrusion from it that fits into a recess on the stock, such that you 'release' it to shoot from the shoulder?
Another disadvantage shooting from the belly has is that you can't seek cover on battlements very well that way. When shooting from the shoulder only the very top of your silhouette needs to be sticking out. With this you'd have to expose yourself vertically much more when shooting from the walls. We don't know many things about this weapon, like for example we don't know if there was a metal holder that keeps the arrow on. If there was, it could've been shot vertically, with the indent of the stock resting on the shoulder. A bit unintuitive, but I wouldn't rule it out.
As someone who is trying to make a reasonably accurate and authentic tabletop RPG system, every time you do a video one weapons like these and time things, it makes it so easy to accurately create different ranged weapons, thanks for this.
A very clever design really. Given what I know about Hellenic levies, you could have a whole cohort of 'archers' trained to use these in an afternoon, firing them off in volleys on command by their unit leader, and they'd use the same ammunition - and maybe even the same bows - as the trained archers firing without the need for a stock. A very effective way of rapidly expanding the useful number of archers for your citizen militia on short notice.
excellent video. I wish I had the craftsmanship skills like you. I just wished you would of mentioned chinese crossbows when you said "pretty much the earliest crossbow", or simple add the words "in the western world"
the chinese crossbows had large quantity of archeological evidence, the gastrophetes does not have physical evidence. the chinese crossbows were mass produced. the greeks were not. the earliest archeological evidence of the chinese crossbow is earlier than the gastrophete's supposed dating. so why would tod say the gastrophetes is the earliest?
Thanks Jack and yes a very good point. I will be honest and say that to my shame I am Euro-centric in that my knowledge base is European and I know little about Chinese crossbows so I forgot about them here. So yes I should have said "in the Western world". But actually isn't the origin of the Chinese crossbow about the same date or does it predate this?
@@tods_workshop based on the burial of Qufu the earliest bronze trigger excavated is 6th century bc approximately. I’m not sure if we found physical archeological evidence of the gastrophetes.
Reminds me of siege crossbows, something tells me this was meant to be deployed from a battlement or some sort of hardpoint that enemy infantry couldnt reach easily.
@@tullochgorum6323 Depends on the battlement. Ancient walls were not constructed like medieval once. As Tod mentioned same look often points towards simillar use.
There's another way to do "belly release" - you lie on your back, and prop the bow on your toes (or maybe bent knee). Your right hand is in a good position to operate the trigger, above your belly. You can sight straight down the bolt at the target.
@@theghosthero6173 I mean, it sort of makes sense. It's probably easier to aim and allows you to handle greater drawweights because you are pulling it back with stronger muscles. The downside of course is that you can literally only use it as a sniping weapon where you lie in wait until a target presents itself. In an open field battle you might need to maneuver around a lot, so laying down in order to shoot is just impractical. But if it's mostly for hunting and/or ambushes, I can see it working really well.
Maybe one of the advantages is that you can shoot a heavier bow for a lot longer since you use your whole body weight to draw it? Might be useful in something like a siege where you might be shooting all day
I second this. Chinese Crossbows date back quite a bit more. They were already using Crossbows in China for 300 years by the time the Gastraphetes was invented.
@@doriangray2347 Even if you can pull a bow of equal power or more.........how long can you pull it? This device you could run for hours of continuous fire without suffering too badly I would guess. Of course that may have been it's downfall. IT was too easy to shoot........the cost of bolts adds up too quick. :D
@@Arachnoid_of_the_underverse if you shoot over a wall with a lot of shooters the enemy would have thought that the castle is well defended by a lot of men, but in truth every woman or heavy enough child could shoot it.
If you could make a mechanism to rotate the rest 90 degrees, you could have it horizontal for the loading and then turn it to shoot from your shoulder when firing.
If you think about it, you can make a removal cap like the windlass have to apply at the end of the stock, so you put it on when drawing and remove it when shooting, and the stock will be the same of a crossbow.
@@shaidrim your idea is really the smart, efficient and elegant solution. I've been thinking ways to rotate, compensate for sights, another design e.t.c, and really all you need is to separate the stock and the back "bow". A simple hole would do the trick. Man, I love simple solutions. Bravo and thanks.
@@-Anarion- - Why? They already had a simple solution, one that almost anyone could do & could maintain a Rate of Fire of 3-4 bolts per minute for as long as you had bolts to shoot.
If you think about it, you're using a right triangle setup- your body the vertical line, the bow the horizontal, and your arm the diagonal.... so once you get consistent where you anchor the bow on your body i'd wager you could get pretty accurate.
Though this definitely seems to be somewhat lacking in accuracy and maybe not as powerful, it seems that it can essentially fire 3 times as fast as your windlass crossbow. I could see this being a sort of midway point, in that it is easy for the average levee soldier to learn how to use this effectively, like a windlass crossbow, but still be able to shoot several times in a minute like a regular bow. Accuracy suffers a bit vs a regular crossbow but the greater rate of shooting makes up for it. If you consider Tod's scenario of 5 guys trying to snipe a phalanx leader, they could even stagger their fire slightly to ensure that there was constantly a bolt in the air, or fire off several quick volleys and then hop on horses and flee. It could also make having reloaders even more effective. It definitely seems like a fun weapon at any rate, particularly since I am fat.
Looking at the cross bow I was going to suggest as an alternative to the cross brace is having a belly belt with a pocket which could be used to press the crossbow main spar in, thus allowing shoulder height aiming.
Holey Jeans, Todman! That's a cracking piece of carpentry, especially the ratchet, and I love Tod's "gut reaction" on the Gastraphetes. That was a great, fun and interesting video; as per usual. :)
@@tods_workshop well if it will be done, that's good news :) Also, thank you so much for helping us educate ourselves in tese themes, you and the 'comunity of the sword' are a treasure of humanity.
One thing that interests me is the tilted shield versus arrows or bolts. Is it better to angle the shield then to take it straight on. I suppose it would maybe benefit you. Metal shields would definitely see a huge benefit. I appreciate your work keep at it
@@Arachnoid_of_the_underverse I do get that they fire arrows that way but I was just wondering out of curiosity. Never saw any tests done so why not make a inquiry.
Why not up on the ribs under the pectoral with the hand under and pointer finger extended towards the target for stance? It would seem to make the most sense for instinctive shooting I think.
I wonder if you were to rotate the belly loading push bar to one side or the other maybe 30 degrees or so or simply make it swivel, if that would allow for shoulder firing.
I was thinking the exact same thing. I copied the stance with a broomstick, and you have to hunch over somewhat to hold and aim the weapon from the hip. Bringing it up closer to the chest gives you much better stability both from not having to hunch and the harder surface the ribs provide.
Regarding the Gastraphetes, I have the feeling they invented a chest-height stand, where they can just rest the body on top of it, rest the butt of the bow to their chest, and shoot like a small ballista.
Makes a lot of sense. You don't have to rest it against your chest, just hold it by the grips. A bit like a WWI era machine gun with spade grips. Tie a cord to the release lever and loop it around your fingers, so you can keep both hands on the grips.
I was thinking the same, if you propped it up on something, say, the rampart of a wall, and used the handlebars like you'd move a modern machinegun around, you could keep it aligned to your eye while shooting it.
I’m guessing this was used for defending strongholds so a rampart or wall would be there already. In the field they would have a shield board to cover behind and the shield probably doubled as the stand.
Wait, we only know it was shot from the hip because of the name? That seems pretty flimsy to me. What if it's called the "belly bow" because you press your stomach against it when you load? Or something like that.
If you use a pump and want to achieve high pressure you would also use the technique of using your body weight to pump by pushing with the belly. I think the way Tod is pushing it is not the most effective.
I mean, the name "belly bow" doesn't necessarily mean anything at all, much like how the Type 89 "knee mortar" is *NOT* fired off of ones knee, unless you want to shatter your knee, I suppose.
I wonder if the knee mortar would actually destroy your knee, considering it's only throwing the grenade out to a max of around 500 yards. As far as I know it's never actually been recorded as fired from the knee to see if it is possible or not.
The knee mortar was fired while TAKING a knee (usually), not from the knee, the name makes perfect sense. So by that logic, the “belly bow” was fired from a prone position laying on your belly, which makes little to no sense. I agree it might not have been FIRED from the belly (hip shot style), but i would definitely wager that it used the belly to work the mechanism, much like Tod demonstrates in the video (but, as was pointed out several times, we have no ACTUAL idea how it was it used. It could’ve been mounted as an artillery piece for all we know). I just think using modern naming schemes from entirely different languages (the Type 89 being a Japanese weapon with an American nickname) to try to make sense of ancient weapons or tools is pretty foolhardy, unless you’re an expert in Ancient Greek (a language that’s even different from its modern counterpart), which I don’t think any of us here are. Hell, the Germans call gloves “hand shoes” (Handschuhe), does that mean they wear shoes on their hands? Just an example of how meaning can be lost in translation and that’s a very modern example with modern languages. Etymology is a fickle beast sometimes.
@@zebdawson3687 that's not at all what the name implies. Because that's pretty much how you operate EVERY infantry mortar. You don't want to be anywhere near the muzzle end when a mortar finally drops on the firing pin. The name "knee mortar" itself only exists within the anglosphere and has absolutely nothing to do with it's original designation, naming or reputation by the Japanese. Knee mortar was called so because US GIs thought that the shape of the bottom of the mortar was meant to clasp your hip, right at the knee, hence calling it knee mortar. The reality is the shaped bottom plate was designed to be secured to fallen tree trunks, sandbags, rocks and other points that could take the brunt of the recoil safely and securely, without flying off anywhere. If anything it's more probable you would lean, doing so, than actually take a knee, as your hand is still supposed to control the elevation of the muzzle. Please learn what you're talking about, before making a bogus analogy.
I could see this being used with a swivel mount on a tower. So...it's kind of like a mini-ballista that a soldier could shoot/reload by himself. (So after reloading, you set it back on the swivel mount, fire, take it off, load it again...I could see it working.) Cool video.
This is clearly the bow for me. Not only do I have the weight to span it to it's full capacity, my ample belly would also mean I'd be shooting from a slightly shorter distance. Win, win.
Heron is awesome. He invented or at least wrote about automated plays using a sort of analog computer using knots and things like puppets and marbles over drums to mimic thunder and grains for rains.
When I look at that I feel like the aiming device I would want for kind of a massed archer type role, would be basically a plumb bob was a protractor next to it or perhaps a string that would come taught when it was held at the right elevation. Another way of achieving a similar result would be to have a string that hangs down to just touch the ground when you're holding it about right. Or a longer strap that you step on. If you're trying to hold and release hold and release a lot of shots just stepping on the same spot of the strap every time on the same knot perhaps would allow you to hold the consistent elevation shot to shot.
First of all, thanks so much for going through the trouble of captioning these videos, its such an underappreciated thing, and its SO helpful! Could one not technically put this square on the chest, to elevate it for better accuracy? Shooting from the hip seems to be so forcefully limiting ones ability to reliably aim just to follow the "belly" part of the name, which may only refer to the loading method..🤔
The draw length on it probably gives it a deceptively good bolt speed compared to similarly or heavier weighted bows of later periods. Very cool piece.
With a little modification I could see that working as a quick load system for a modern crossbow. I've got half a mind to try to make one, though mine would be more similar to the old one than a modern one.
Another possible advantage: it could shoot quicker under certain scenario. Imagine you have many of this cocked and ready to go, your army archery line can leave them on the side, at time of need, it will be quicker to pick it up, to only belly height and "fire". A split sec quicker can make difference under the right circumstances.
This was a weapon created at a time where tightly massed phalanxes, centuries and cohorts were employed. Being able to accurately loose 3 lethal arrows into a large, wide and very deep body of enemies, and do so with little training seems a very valuable tool. Even better as a walled settlement defence tool. You're bound to hit someone, and if you can aim at a head or legs, the large Aspis and Scuta used by your enemy are not of much use. The smaller hide shields of the levy troops even less.
i can see this being mounted on some kind of stand to help with the aim, the stand itself isnt part of the bow-thing so its easy to put down and reload, then when its loaded you put it on a stand, about belly height (thus the name belly release?), you can aim it however you want and then release the bolt romans then saw it and made it more mechanical, making small balista or something like that from it
If you put the bit you brace against your stomach on a pivot so it can rotate 360 it would basically function like a shoulder stock too while retaining its original function. And it seems like a simple enough thing for someone to try.
could adapt it to fire from the shoulder like an RPG-7, with front forgrip underneath... This looks amazing! Time for a new Project for myself :D TY Tod, Love all your work!
I can see maybe 100 + men armed with that weapon could cause a bit of trouble for enemy troops when firing in mass volleys. It would cause them to have to form a shield wall or spread apart to make less of a target both of which would reduce the effectiveness of that unit for a short time.
An important consideration is in siege warfare, your time with a viable shot can be very short as targets appear in and out of cover for a second or two at most. Drawing and aiming a bow in that time is hard, being able to keep on target is a massive advantage when your targets are elusive with short windows of engagement, and rate of fire isn’t so much a concern
Dutch Marines used to put their rifle butt in the center of their chest, right on the chestbone, when clearing rooms in the confines of a building. If you keep your head straight, you naturally hit what you're looking at. Try the gastra on your chest, maybe.
Seeing this weapon makes me think, could have there been a way to build a medieval crossbow (or a heavy crossbow) such that it could benefit from the seemingly easier reloading system of the gastraphetes while retaining the feature of shooting from the shoulders? (not quite like as shown in the video, rather having a separate tool that locks into the crossbow)
Suggestion to turn the handle 90 degrees so it is perpendicular, no reason it cant be loaded like that and would allow you to shoulder shoot it. Also perhaps the name alludes only to the loading, not the shooting. Is the name a later addition or a direct translations from Heron? Thanks for the video, it is a remarkable stepping stone in weaponry. Edit. Got to the end of the video, thanks for addressing shoulder stocking.
I would find it an interesting experiment to see if turning the handle 90 degrees (or even mounting the handle on a pivot so you can turn it at will) could make it into an acceptable shoulder stock. Even if we have no evidence of this being done in history, it would be interesting to see if this tiny change to the design could improve the weapon or not.
With the problems you had with elevation when aiming shooting from the hip, they may have adjusted for elevation by the location they braced the gastraphetes against themselves. Moving it up and down their belly. This way they would be able to keep their support arm consistent while adjusting for elevation. Instead of shooting from your hip try bracing it against the bottom of your sternum while standing straight on.
looking at the angle the bow is at maybe its a volley weapon where you put the but on your belly and point the thing skywards using the tip of the bolt to aim with and with a unit of men using this it would be a good indirect fire weapon supressing an entrenched enemy
If it had a little pivot on the back piece, the "belly stock", that allowed it to rotate, it would be a perfect weapon cause you could use that same stock shape to load it with the belly and shoot it with the shoulder with a simple twist!
One thing that occurs to me is that in your setup the ratchets seem to be quite redundant as you can span it in one movement anyway. This could indicate that a historical version should have a heavier draw weight making the ratchets necessary. Any idea how far you could go with the draw weight if you span step by step actually using the ratchet? It would be a lot slower but if it allows for a much increased draw weight I guess it could make for an impressive handheld siege weapon.
You could take the part of the bow that rests on your belly and put some lever or thread on it. Then it could be rotated 90 degrees with a flick of the wrist and turned into a stock when shooting, then turned again for reloading. Then you could shoot it from the shoulder (or not, I'm just thinking aloud here).
It took the name from "gastro" (meaning stomach) not because they released the bow from there, but because they used their stomach to arm it. The problem that the Greeks had to resolve was that they wanted bows that were better than those of their enemies, who were masters in archery (such as the Scythians, Persians, etc.). What they believed was that all archers were limited by the distance they could draw (due to the construction of the human arm) and the amount of force they could exert. Generally, one cannot draw more than half of their body weight. "Gastro" means stomach. They used their stomach to press/arm the bow, utilizing their entire body weight, and by adding the arming extension, they increased the draw distance of the bow. Thus, they succeeded in overcoming the limitations of draw distance and draw weight through this invention.Was extremely powerful but less accurate.Usualy they releasing massive voleys of arrows against enemy consentrations.
Hi friend! One possible explanation for why gastraphetes was fired from the height of the hip would be because the Greeks fired the bow at the height of the body, unlike other archer peoples who fired at the altitude of the eye or cheekbone. Remember that everything in the universe of man is a cultural matter. Greetings from Mexico
One thing of note I noticed with that belly system as you said you couldn't fire from cover, you might be able to do what the Chu and Qin did with some of their crossbows where you would fire it on your back with your shoulders angled forward. It would definitely feel weird to anyone that hasn't done it before but it might be possible with that design. This would mean that a group of crossbowmen could in effect hide in grass and fire it at a flank and skirmish with it.
Great content as always Tod! My gut feeling is it was primarily for use in fixed emplacements, sieges, ship to ship fighting. I do wonder about the belly attachment though. Were they really in line with the bow arms? You could cock the thing just as easily with it at 90 degrees to the bow, which would make it a lot easier to shoot from the shoulder. I accept the point about shoulder stocks being a later thing, but it's intuitive to get your eye closer to something you want to line up with a target, so I think they would have tried it. Maybe the belly piece was actually a detachable cocking aid like the windlass or goat's foot? Another thought, the curved bit does seem a bit awkward in use so there must be a payoff, like being able to cock stronger bows. Those wide spaced handles seem a bit unnecessary for 1 person but you could get two burly blokes leaning on it, and easily cock a 150-200 lb bow.
I interesting modification would be a swiveled or even removable belly bar. It would defeat the name, but it would allow the user to sight down the bow better.
I think they would work great on a ship. Greek trireme were open on top, lob some arrows in there, hit some rowers and they are screwed. A boat like that dependent on the rhythm of the rowers.
Working out that the earth is round and getting an approximation of its size? Child's play. Stirrups and shoulder-stocks? Next level genius. It's amazing the stuff that people can solve when they put their minds to it, and then also the things that just don't get thought of for hundreds or thousands of years.
I could picture a long wall with two lines of townspeople with crossbows behind cover such as on a wall, first line are the ones who have shown they have a knack for hitting with the crossbow, behind them stands another line of the people who might only have a knack for eating and drinking that continually reloads, with more people or children running around with new baskets of bolts. The rate of fire would probably be rather impressive with a low skill ceiling. The fact something like it seems to have existed does not mean there were not skilled hunters with bows on the wall as well, but it might have been a weapon to get the most out of the available people, and maybe exactly what was needed when it was created.
In that configuration, it seems natural to shoot un-aimed at an upwards angle, ideal for shooting from the top of a wall at advancing enemies. You could easily shoot from behind cover. The minimal training required means that everyone in town is suddenly an archer, men women and children of all ages, not just your trained soldiers.
This is a fantastic video with one of my favorite weapons of ancient times. Just as a few notes I almost feel like the gastraphetes would be used almost like the Chu Ko nu/Zhuge crossbow. You would teach a group of levies who weren't trained enough for melee combat and use them as a defensive tool at a siege. Park them on the wall and have them shoot down at an angle/straight down at the enemy soldiers. In that scenario, the problems with accuracy would be solved due to the angle of shooting being at a favorable angle. It is also possible for this to be used in offensive sieges with a group of soldiers/engineers who were skilled with the gastaphetes and could plink off/harass enemies on a wall whilst being outside the range of other small missiles like javelins, slings, bows since this can be interpreted as the predecessor to proper siege engines.
It is possible that both were used in defensive sieges. However, both the Gastraphetes and the Zhuge repeating crossbow weren't used very much and seemed to be "niche" or rare weapons. In ancient China, the far more powerful standard shot crossbows and regular bow were much more common than the repeating crossbows. In ancient Greece, besides a few often hand mentions about a small group of mercenaries carrying them, javelins, slings, and regular bows were far more common. However, in East Asia, there were much larger light field artillery repeating crossbows that would have been mounted on a platform (eg. wagon or chariot) or on top of a wall - and these would've done much more damage than handheld repeaters.
@@Intranetusa oh most definetly, both the zhuge cross bow and gastraphetes took much more time and effort to make than a normal crossbow and had cheaper, just as effective alterantives. The idea is there at least to me but at least on the gastraphetes which doesn't have as much recorded use and nothing detailing it's exact purpose, we can only guess and elaborate until more evidence is found about it. Both are amazing examples of humand trying to find out how to stab other humans from far away.
Hey Tod, could you experiment with waxing the stalk along the area where the chord scrapes the wood? Maybe you could get a higher velocity out of the arrow without having more complexity in the design or access to expensive materials.
I have always thought that the Bellybow got its name because to load you bend at the belly. I also wonder if the docking Handel was removed before it was shoot slowing it to be rasied to aim when shooting
If the trigger comes back close enough, the handle can be used as a horizontal pistol grip. But 3:15 is how this thing is really aimed. Ribs can be used as a range gauge to aim precisely with the arrow point.
exactly - one of the books on ancient engineering mentioned this and their opinion was that it was called the belly weapon because thats how it was loaded. i dont see any reason it couldnt be shot like a normal crossbow
“We know that from the name?” Maybe it’s named be the method of loading? Do we have a Greek name for it written on a vase or something? Not a name an archeologist came up with.
Although if you do have fortifications available, I would assume you could lay it on top of a stone/brick wall or pallisade, between merlons, (or from a wide enough window) and shoot it that way. I'd assume the belly/hip release would only be used in the open. If you have wall for support, maybe it would be less awkward than a free-standing shoulder release?
you could make the end for the belly a separate part and put it over the end of the crossbow for loading, put it away for shooting and when you walk with it you could connect it with a pin.
Excellent video. I think that weapon was perfectly suited for its era of warfare. It’s their version of “artillery”. I think that would have been an area weapon. Think about 400 conscripts firing those at max range into massed infantry? Even with those massive Greek Sheilds it would have caused some casualties, and definitely slowed their movement or broke sections of their formations. So I don’t think sniping was a primary consideration. Just an added bonus. Thanks again. Cheers 🍻
I know very little about Greek warfare, but it seems like it'd be easy to fire over a shield wall. Kind of reminds me of the plumbatae you demonstrated before. If you angle it up and have buddies in front with shields, they could provide your cover, if it's supposed to be fired like this.
Great channel Tod, bringing parts of our history to life. Not interested in modern firearms etc, but the skill our ancestors showed and skills they had to learn were pretty amazing - war, unfortunately, has always been a big part of our history, very interesting though.
In battle, you'd really only get those two or three shots. As the enemy charges, being able to deliver a timed volley exactly when needed would be very powerful. The other key situation that comes to mind is sieges. instead of having to hold the bow drawn you'd be waiting for a target to reveal themselves.
Indeed gastra (γαστηρ) means belly in greek (ancient) Aphetes (αφέτης) means releaser. We call the man that shoots the gun to let the runners know they should start running αφέτη. Funny i never herd of this one before! Very interesting presentation, thank you!
One thing that comes to mind is stamina. Shooting strong bows repeatedly in a short span will tire your arm and it is the arm you will use to fight after in melee. With a weapon like this, they could have the regular troops firing volleys right before engagement and they wouldn't have a sore weak arm to deal with in combat.
I think this is a key point to its deployment
Im not a professional archer or did i shoot longbows, but shooting modern compound bows with some practise at 60-70 lbs is not that hard. And we are talking about farmers or manual laborers that had extra stamina. Also if they where fighting in phalanx formation there is no way the same guy was shooting bow and then went to form complex phalanx formation.
@@cactuslietuva shooting modern compound bows is so much easier than a classical one (including longbow). I remember going to a range with some friends, nobody had any issues with compound bows, but only few of us could fully draw a classical bow of the same poundage.
if you shoot like an archer. fast without the need for aiming it doesnt do too much tearing on the arms
Thanks Tod for the reply.
And to the other points. From personal experience, I used to shoot a modern 80lbs bow and I tried to shoot a 80lbs longbow because I thought it would be similar. Nope, nowhere close. I'd say it's about 3-4 times easier to pull a compound bow.
As for firing fast without aiming, the faster you fire the faster you get tired. Ten shots in a row is a lot more tiring than 10 shots waiting a minute between each shot. Just look at the video where Joe Gibbs has to shoot a heavy longbow as fast as he can.
Historical archery channel also tried to shoot a 125lbs bow fast. He's clearly tired. ua-cam.com/video/Ya6mjSycl0M/v-deo.html
Sir Henry Simmerson: And what makes a good soldier, Sharpe?
Sharpe: The ability to fire three rounds a minute in any weather, sir.
I have a cousin at Horseguards!
@@Markell1991 he who loses the king's colours, loses the king's friendship!
MAJOR LENNOX ANSWERED WITH HIS LIFE, SIR.
@@SpiderGeometry did you have to look it up like I did or was it from memory? If it was from memory you are not a Sharpe afficionardo, but a full blown expert!
kisiera,,saber,,si,,el,,arco,,es,,de,, asero
The phrase "shooting from the hip" might be older than we first imagined.
It's an intuitive weapon. If you released a couple of hundred practice shots into a target your brain will figure out the geometry just like it does when you're driving a car. Imagine 3 person teams, Loader, Handler, Shooter ...
Finally, a Crew-served crossbow!
I would honestly love to see a follow-up to this where you revise the Gastraphetes design such that you still get that easy load - where the user puts their weight into the machine to cock it rather than muscling or cranking the bowstring back - but incorporate shoulder-stock aiming and cover usage.
Just as an experiment, like, "if Tod found himself in Ancient Greece and somehow able to speak Ancient Greek, how could he earn his keep by improving weapons the locals already have, simply using innovations they haven't discovered yet."
That would be a nice series - thanks
@@tods_workshop It _really_ would be - and an interesting thought experiment. "Knowing what I know about the history of technology, how can I improve upon what is already being done/possible in (a given era) using only the tools and materials locally available."
Carved shoulder stocks for crossbows would be one simple improvement that could be implemented _immediately_ over the simple squared wooden ones they used in most of the medieval period, wouldn't it?
Well, if you leave plywood and rubberband out of it, sounds like a nice cooperation with a big guy from southern germany.
@@tods_workshop I would watch that! Greetings from Athens!
@@tods_workshop Tod, I think this was used as fortress defense weapon. It would benefit tremendously from a swivel. Push it against a wall to cock it, put it on a swivel, aim from eye level. Snipe the besiegers at will.
I think you have my favorite intro of any youtubers. It's short, shows a bit what you do, and ends with a recognizable symbol. Love it
*sherwp ding*
Exactly! It always struck me how good it is
We know it was shot from the belly because of the name? I don't see that this is the case. You load it with your belly - that's enough for the name. How about having the curved loading part on your belt, and a protrusion from it that fits into a recess on the stock, such that you 'release' it to shoot from the shoulder?
Are there any contemporary artistic representations of it in use? That might offer a clue.
I thought of the same thing, there could be a way for it to be released from the shoulder
A short spear used as a monopod so shoot from head height?
@@nigelmacbug6678 i think it would weird to properly load it them, too much time wasted
Another disadvantage shooting from the belly has is that you can't seek cover on battlements very well that way. When shooting from the shoulder only the very top of your silhouette needs to be sticking out. With this you'd have to expose yourself vertically much more when shooting from the walls. We don't know many things about this weapon, like for example we don't know if there was a metal holder that keeps the arrow on. If there was, it could've been shot vertically, with the indent of the stock resting on the shoulder. A bit unintuitive, but I wouldn't rule it out.
I really, _really,_ want to believe that your “gut feeling” was an intentional pun.
It's cool to see the Gastraphetes again, this time in more depth! Your 2015 video on it was how I found your channel, and I'm glad I stuck around :)
So am I - thanks for hanging in there
As someone who is trying to make a reasonably accurate and authentic tabletop RPG system, every time you do a video one weapons like these and time things, it makes it so easy to accurately create different ranged weapons, thanks for this.
We are in the same ship right now :D only difference that I am also using these for a pc game.
@@Gabrong Nice!
Would characters be allowed to make a slingshot out of dandelion rubber, or are only historical weapons allowed?
@@josephburchanowski4636 It's a ttrpg, the players can do anything as long as they can convince the GM.
@@beganfish that is the beauty of these games :)
Using a defensive wall as a rest would work and perhaps a deterrent seeing a them crossbows sitting up there.
wall could also be used to lean the gastraphetes on to load
A very clever design really. Given what I know about Hellenic levies, you could have a whole cohort of 'archers' trained to use these in an afternoon, firing them off in volleys on command by their unit leader, and they'd use the same ammunition - and maybe even the same bows - as the trained archers firing without the need for a stock.
A very effective way of rapidly expanding the useful number of archers for your citizen militia on short notice.
excellent video. I wish I had the craftsmanship skills like you. I just wished you would of mentioned chinese crossbows when you said "pretty much the earliest crossbow", or simple add the words "in the western world"
the chinese crossbows had large quantity of archeological evidence, the gastrophetes does not have physical evidence. the chinese crossbows were mass produced. the greeks were not. the earliest archeological evidence of the chinese crossbow is earlier than the gastrophete's supposed dating. so why would tod say the gastrophetes is the earliest?
Thanks Jack and yes a very good point. I will be honest and say that to my shame I am Euro-centric in that my knowledge base is European and I know little about Chinese crossbows so I forgot about them here. So yes I should have said "in the Western world". But actually isn't the origin of the Chinese crossbow about the same date or does it predate this?
@@tods_workshop based on the burial of Qufu the earliest bronze trigger excavated is 6th century bc approximately. I’m not sure if we found physical archeological evidence of the gastrophetes.
@@tods_workshop but very likely the earliest crossbow is in Stone Age possiblly Africa if you count animal traps
Reminds me of siege crossbows, something tells me this was meant to be deployed from a battlement or some sort of hardpoint that enemy infantry couldnt reach easily.
Shooting down from the hip over a battlement? How would that work?
@@tullochgorum6323 Depends on the battlement. Ancient walls were not constructed like medieval once. As Tod mentioned same look often points towards simillar use.
I read it was originally invented to snipe and counter archers on walls during siege, as it outranged the hand bows used at the time.
There's another way to do "belly release" - you lie on your back, and prop the bow on your toes (or maybe bent knee). Your right hand is in a good position to operate the trigger, above your belly. You can sight straight down the bolt at the target.
I had heard of bows where you lie on your back to pull and fire - hmm.
@@ChristopherLaHaise pretty popular in Uruguay and Southern Brazil among certain groups of native people
@@theghosthero6173 I mean, it sort of makes sense. It's probably easier to aim and allows you to handle greater drawweights because you are pulling it back with stronger muscles.
The downside of course is that you can literally only use it as a sniping weapon where you lie in wait until a target presents itself. In an open field battle you might need to maneuver around a lot, so laying down in order to shoot is just impractical. But if it's mostly for hunting and/or ambushes, I can see it working really well.
@@darthplagueis13 yeah it was for bird hunting and to set roof of village houses on fire during surprise attacks
Maybe one of the advantages is that you can shoot a heavier bow for a lot longer since you use your whole body weight to draw it? Might be useful in something like a siege where you might be shooting all day
I agree. When you are extremely fatigued from combat and no sleep, this is fantastic.
It would be interesting comparing Ancient Greek and Ancient Chinese crossbows, including their timeframes of invention and use.
I second this. Chinese Crossbows date back quite a bit more. They were already using Crossbows in China for 300 years by the time the Gastraphetes was invented.
it has a safety advantage: the bow is not on face-level !
But it kinda is at bollocks level tho
Three shots a minute? Any weather? That's soldiering!
This is a severely under rated comment.
Boss, I can't come in - I got a severe case of Gastraphetes!
What’s wrong with your feet😆
made me smile
"I've got shooting pains in my stomach" :D I guess this weapon could lead to a hernia.
It does seem a lot less tiring than drawing a war bow, so maybe it would allow your archers to keep firing in prolonged engagements?
That is a definite point
An 80 pound bow that a scribe can shoot repeatedly without lots of practice to build his arm muscles up to it sounds useful to me.
Especially for dropping bolts onto a phalanx, when 'somewhere in the same postcode' is accurate enough.
Yes that’s a good point. I cannot pull 80 very well for certain.
@@doriangray2347 Even if you can pull a bow of equal power or more.........how long can you pull it? This device you could run for hours of continuous fire without suffering too badly I would guess. Of course that may have been it's downfall. IT was too easy to shoot........the cost of bolts adds up too quick. :D
You could also entice the maidens to fire a few shots
@@Arachnoid_of_the_underverse if you shoot over a wall with a lot of shooters the enemy would have thought that the castle is well defended by a lot of men,
but in truth every woman or heavy enough child could shoot it.
If you could make a mechanism to rotate the rest 90 degrees, you could have it horizontal for the loading and then turn it to shoot from your shoulder when firing.
My thought as well!
If you think about it, you can make a removal cap like the windlass have to apply at the end of the stock, so you put it on when drawing and remove it when shooting, and the stock will be the same of a crossbow.
@@shaidrim your idea is really the smart, efficient and elegant solution. I've been thinking ways to rotate, compensate for sights, another design e.t.c, and really all you need is to separate the stock and the back "bow". A simple hole would do the trick. Man, I love simple solutions. Bravo and thanks.
@@-Anarion- - Why? They already had a simple solution, one that almost anyone could do & could maintain a Rate of Fire of 3-4 bolts per minute for as long as you had bolts to shoot.
@@TraditionalAnglican improved accuracy
What makes a good soldier? "The ability to fire three rounds a minute sir"...Richard Sharpe.
If you think about it, you're using a right triangle setup- your body the vertical line, the bow the horizontal, and your arm the diagonal.... so once you get consistent where you anchor the bow on your body i'd wager you could get pretty accurate.
Though this definitely seems to be somewhat lacking in accuracy and maybe not as powerful, it seems that it can essentially fire 3 times as fast as your windlass crossbow. I could see this being a sort of midway point, in that it is easy for the average levee soldier to learn how to use this effectively, like a windlass crossbow, but still be able to shoot several times in a minute like a regular bow. Accuracy suffers a bit vs a regular crossbow but the greater rate of shooting makes up for it. If you consider Tod's scenario of 5 guys trying to snipe a phalanx leader, they could even stagger their fire slightly to ensure that there was constantly a bolt in the air, or fire off several quick volleys and then hop on horses and flee. It could also make having reloaders even more effective. It definitely seems like a fun weapon at any rate, particularly since I am fat.
I imagine a cross bow could be built with a twisting stock giving the ease of loading from this and the accuracy of a shoulder fire
What a nice crossbow. The ancients really were awesome.
Gorgeous workmanship as always, thank you for the regular uploads!
Looking at the cross bow I was going to suggest as an alternative to the cross brace is having a belly belt with a pocket which could be used to press the crossbow main spar in, thus allowing shoulder height aiming.
Holey Jeans, Todman! That's a cracking piece of carpentry, especially the ratchet, and I love Tod's "gut reaction" on the Gastraphetes. That was a great, fun and interesting video; as per usual. :)
Thanks
We finally know where the expression "shooting from the hip" comes from, ancient Greece :)
Yeah! Hipfire always struck me as weird no one shoots from their actual hip lol
@Mike - _ - Litoris that's not how language works man lol
@Mike - _ - Litoris Do you really want a response or are you going to keep being fascetious?
Every time I have a training session at work.
Me: "Pretty much gobbledygook."
Gonna need ya to show us how well it shoots using a rest. Maybe a sharp Y stick that could be thrust into the ground. You do good work by the way.
great video as always sir. By the way, have you considered replicating the ancient (regular) chinese crossbow for a future video?
It will be done one day, but so many films
@@tods_workshop well if it will be done, that's good news :)
Also, thank you so much for helping us educate ourselves in tese themes, you and the 'comunity of the sword' are a treasure of humanity.
Great video Todd, always fascinated by ancient technology.
One thing that interests me is the tilted shield versus arrows or bolts. Is it better to angle the shield then to take it straight on. I suppose it would maybe benefit you. Metal shields would definitely see a huge benefit. I appreciate your work keep at it
Given the overhead angle of defenders on battlements it’s likely most shots were at a marked angle to the attackers shields.
@@Arachnoid_of_the_underverse I do get that they fire arrows that way but I was just wondering out of curiosity. Never saw any tests done so why not make a inquiry.
Why not up on the ribs under the pectoral with the hand under and pointer finger extended towards the target for stance? It would seem to make the most sense for instinctive shooting I think.
I wonder if you were to rotate the belly loading push bar to one side or the other maybe 30 degrees or so or simply make it swivel, if that would allow for shoulder firing.
I was thinking the exact same thing. I copied the stance with a broomstick, and you have to hunch over somewhat to hold and aim the weapon from the hip. Bringing it up closer to the chest gives you much better stability both from not having to hunch and the harder surface the ribs provide.
Regarding the Gastraphetes, I have the feeling they invented a chest-height stand, where they can just rest the body on top of it, rest the butt of the bow to their chest, and shoot like a small ballista.
Stick it on a pavise, yeah
Makes a lot of sense. You don't have to rest it against your chest, just hold it by the grips. A bit like a WWI era machine gun with spade grips. Tie a cord to the release lever and loop it around your fingers, so you can keep both hands on the grips.
What's speaking against holding it up and aiming along the arrow?
I was thinking the same, if you propped it up on something, say, the rampart of a wall, and used the handlebars like you'd move a modern machinegun around, you could keep it aligned to your eye while shooting it.
I’m guessing this was used for defending strongholds so a rampart or wall would be there already. In the field they would have a shield board to cover behind and the shield probably doubled as the stand.
About the shoulder stock, just look at early firearms.
It took quite a bit of time before those were fired from the shoulder, so to me it makes sense.
When you had a wall of flesh marching or running towards you.. fine accuracy probably wasn't needed.
True
Wait, we only know it was shot from the hip because of the name? That seems pretty flimsy to me. What if it's called the "belly bow" because you press your stomach against it when you load? Or something like that.
If you use a pump and want to achieve high pressure you would also use the technique of using your body weight to pump by pushing with the belly. I think the way Tod is pushing it is not the most effective.
It's not a "belly bow" though: it's a "belly releaser". That's why there's a lot of certainty about how it was shot.
I think he was pretty clear that nobody can know how the thing was actually used and that shooting it from the belly is just an educated guess.
I mean, the name "belly bow" doesn't necessarily mean anything at all, much like how the Type 89 "knee mortar" is *NOT* fired off of ones knee, unless you want to shatter your knee, I suppose.
The knee(ling) mortar was an ingeniously simple little weapon.
I wonder if the knee mortar would actually destroy your knee, considering it's only throwing the grenade out to a max of around 500 yards. As far as I know it's never actually been recorded as fired from the knee to see if it is possible or not.
@@jimmehjiimmeehh9748 It would shatter your knee, yes.
The knee mortar was fired while TAKING a knee (usually), not from the knee, the name makes perfect sense. So by that logic, the “belly bow” was fired from a prone position laying on your belly, which makes little to no sense. I agree it might not have been FIRED from the belly (hip shot style), but i would definitely wager that it used the belly to work the mechanism, much like Tod demonstrates in the video (but, as was pointed out several times, we have no ACTUAL idea how it was it used. It could’ve been mounted as an artillery piece for all we know). I just think using modern naming schemes from entirely different languages (the Type 89 being a Japanese weapon with an American nickname) to try to make sense of ancient weapons or tools is pretty foolhardy, unless you’re an expert in Ancient Greek (a language that’s even different from its modern counterpart), which I don’t think any of us here are.
Hell, the Germans call gloves “hand shoes” (Handschuhe), does that mean they wear shoes on their hands? Just an example of how meaning can be lost in translation and that’s a very modern example with modern languages. Etymology is a fickle beast sometimes.
@@zebdawson3687 that's not at all what the name implies. Because that's pretty much how you operate EVERY infantry mortar. You don't want to be anywhere near the muzzle end when a mortar finally drops on the firing pin. The name "knee mortar" itself only exists within the anglosphere and has absolutely nothing to do with it's original designation, naming or reputation by the Japanese. Knee mortar was called so because US GIs thought that the shape of the bottom of the mortar was meant to clasp your hip, right at the knee, hence calling it knee mortar. The reality is the shaped bottom plate was designed to be secured to fallen tree trunks, sandbags, rocks and other points that could take the brunt of the recoil safely and securely, without flying off anywhere. If anything it's more probable you would lean, doing so, than actually take a knee, as your hand is still supposed to control the elevation of the muzzle. Please learn what you're talking about, before making a bogus analogy.
I could see this being used with a swivel mount on a tower. So...it's kind of like a mini-ballista that a soldier could shoot/reload by himself. (So after reloading, you set it back on the swivel mount, fire, take it off, load it again...I could see it working.)
Cool video.
Another advantage of crossbows over traditional bows in warfare is the ability to discharge the weapon while prone.
This is clearly the bow for me. Not only do I have the weight to span it to it's full capacity, my ample belly would also mean I'd be shooting from a slightly shorter distance. Win, win.
Love it!
Always a good watch. Thanks Todd
Very interesting piece. I think I’ll incorporate it into my RPG world
Ogre Gut Archers wielding siege weapon sized Gastraphetes? Cool :)
@@euansmith3699 I like the idea but I wonder if regular wood would handle that kind of compression/weight
Great video! I'm curious how your technique and accuracy would change/improve after a week or so of practice.
Heron is awesome. He invented or at least wrote about automated plays using a sort of analog computer using knots and things like puppets and marbles over drums to mimic thunder and grains for rains.
And used steam for the first system of automated doors
Interesting.
Nice.
Thanks for this Tod.
When I look at that I feel like the aiming device I would want for kind of a massed archer type role, would be basically a plumb bob was a protractor next to it or perhaps a string that would come taught when it was held at the right elevation. Another way of achieving a similar result would be to have a string that hangs down to just touch the ground when you're holding it about right. Or a longer strap that you step on. If you're trying to hold and release hold and release a lot of shots just stepping on the same spot of the strap every time on the same knot perhaps would allow you to hold the consistent elevation shot to shot.
First of all, thanks so much for going through the trouble of captioning these videos, its such an underappreciated thing, and its SO helpful!
Could one not technically put this square on the chest, to elevate it for better accuracy? Shooting from the hip seems to be so forcefully limiting ones ability to reliably aim just to follow the "belly" part of the name, which may only refer to the loading method..🤔
The draw length on it probably gives it a deceptively good bolt speed compared to similarly or heavier weighted bows of later periods. Very cool piece.
With a little modification I could see that working as a quick load system for a modern crossbow.
I've got half a mind to try to make one, though mine would be more similar to the old one than a modern one.
i was imagining more chest fired than shoulder fired
Another possible advantage: it could shoot quicker under certain scenario. Imagine you have many of this cocked and ready to go, your army archery line can leave them on the side, at time of need, it will be quicker to pick it up, to only belly height and "fire". A split sec quicker can make difference under the right circumstances.
This was a weapon created at a time where tightly massed phalanxes, centuries and cohorts were employed. Being able to accurately loose 3 lethal arrows into a large, wide and very deep body of enemies, and do so with little training seems a very valuable tool. Even better as a walled settlement defence tool. You're bound to hit someone, and if you can aim at a head or legs, the large Aspis and Scuta used by your enemy are not of much use. The smaller hide shields of the levy troops even less.
i can see this being mounted on some kind of stand to help with the aim, the stand itself isnt part of the bow-thing so its easy to put down and reload, then when its loaded you put it on a stand, about belly height (thus the name belly release?), you can aim it however you want and then release the bolt
romans then saw it and made it more mechanical, making small balista or something like that from it
It would be really good to see how you make your crossbow strings Tod 👍
There is a vid on the channel for that.
@@gordonlawrence1448 oh where is it?
If you put the bit you brace against your stomach on a pivot so it can rotate 360 it would basically function like a shoulder stock too while retaining its original function. And it seems like a simple enough thing for someone to try.
could adapt it to fire from the shoulder like an RPG-7, with front forgrip underneath... This looks amazing! Time for a new Project for myself :D TY Tod, Love all your work!
I can see maybe 100 + men armed with that weapon could cause a bit of trouble for enemy troops when firing in mass volleys. It would cause them to have to form a shield wall or spread apart to make less of a target both of which would reduce the effectiveness of that unit for a short time.
An important consideration is in siege warfare, your time with a viable shot can be very short as targets appear in and out of cover for a second or two at most. Drawing and aiming a bow in that time is hard, being able to keep on target is a massive advantage when your targets are elusive with short windows of engagement, and rate of fire isn’t so much a concern
Dutch Marines used to put their rifle butt in the center of their chest, right on the chestbone, when clearing rooms in the confines of a building. If you keep your head straight, you naturally hit what you're looking at. Try the gastra on your chest, maybe.
Really? That sounds like a quick way to getting totally winded
Seeing this weapon makes me think, could have there been a way to build a medieval crossbow (or a heavy crossbow) such that it could benefit from the seemingly easier reloading system of the gastraphetes while retaining the feature of shooting from the shoulders? (not quite like as shown in the video, rather having a separate tool that locks into the crossbow)
that would be very interesting. Maybe a challenge for our favorite slingshot maker?
looks like you could just put a shoulder stock on it, and have a plate (ie armour) on your stomach to avoid that jamming into your guts uncomfortably.
Joerg Sprave basically did this but with modern bows. A heavy crossbow wouldn't be practical because their draw weight is too high.
easily possible, but I like to work with what we know to be the case
Suggestion to turn the handle 90 degrees so it is perpendicular, no reason it cant be loaded like that and would allow you to shoulder shoot it. Also perhaps the name alludes only to the loading, not the shooting. Is the name a later addition or a direct translations from Heron? Thanks for the video, it is a remarkable stepping stone in weaponry. Edit. Got to the end of the video, thanks for addressing shoulder stocking.
I would find it an interesting experiment to see if turning the handle 90 degrees (or even mounting the handle on a pivot so you can turn it at will) could make it into an acceptable shoulder stock. Even if we have no evidence of this being done in history, it would be interesting to see if this tiny change to the design could improve the weapon or not.
Joerg Sprave modified.
With the problems you had with elevation when aiming shooting from the hip, they may have adjusted for elevation by the location they braced the gastraphetes against themselves. Moving it up and down their belly. This way they would be able to keep their support arm consistent while adjusting for elevation.
Instead of shooting from your hip try bracing it against the bottom of your sternum while standing straight on.
Love the info...and your shirt!
looking at the angle the bow is at maybe its a volley weapon where you put the but on your belly and point the thing skywards using the tip of the bolt to aim with and with a unit of men using this it would be a good indirect fire weapon supressing an entrenched enemy
You have a nice setup there. Ever thought about nice range markers to help us judge distance. Cameras distort.
If it had a little pivot on the back piece, the "belly stock", that allowed it to rotate, it would be a perfect weapon cause you could use that same stock shape to load it with the belly and shoot it with the shoulder with a simple twist!
One thing that occurs to me is that in your setup the ratchets seem to be quite redundant as you can span it in one movement anyway. This could indicate that a historical version should have a heavier draw weight making the ratchets necessary. Any idea how far you could go with the draw weight if you span step by step actually using the ratchet? It would be a lot slower but if it allows for a much increased draw weight I guess it could make for an impressive handheld siege weapon.
You could take the part of the bow that rests on your belly and put some lever or thread on it. Then it could be rotated 90 degrees with a flick of the wrist and turned into a stock when shooting, then turned again for reloading. Then you could shoot it from the shoulder (or not, I'm just thinking aloud here).
It took the name from "gastro" (meaning stomach) not because they released the bow from there, but because they used their stomach to arm it. The problem that the Greeks had to resolve was that they wanted bows that were better than those of their enemies, who were masters in archery (such as the Scythians, Persians, etc.). What they believed was that all archers were limited by the distance they could draw (due to the construction of the human arm) and the amount of force they could exert. Generally, one cannot draw more than half of their body weight. "Gastro" means stomach. They used their stomach to press/arm the bow, utilizing their entire body weight, and by adding the arming extension, they increased the draw distance of the bow. Thus, they succeeded in overcoming the limitations of draw distance and draw weight through this invention.Was extremely powerful but less accurate.Usualy they releasing massive voleys of arrows against enemy consentrations.
Hi friend! One possible explanation for why gastraphetes was fired from the height of the hip would be because the Greeks fired the bow at the height of the body, unlike other archer peoples who fired at the altitude of the eye or cheekbone. Remember that everything in the universe of man is a cultural matter. Greetings from Mexico
One thing of note I noticed with that belly system as you said you couldn't fire from cover, you might be able to do what the Chu and Qin did with some of their crossbows where you would fire it on your back with your shoulders angled forward. It would definitely feel weird to anyone that hasn't done it before but it might be possible with that design. This would mean that a group of crossbowmen could in effect hide in grass and fire it at a flank and skirmish with it.
That's a massive shift from the loading stance to the firing stance in that case.
Great content as always Tod! My gut feeling is it was primarily for use in fixed emplacements, sieges, ship to ship fighting. I do wonder about the belly attachment though. Were they really in line with the bow arms? You could cock the thing just as easily with it at 90 degrees to the bow, which would make it a lot easier to shoot from the shoulder. I accept the point about shoulder stocks being a later thing, but it's intuitive to get your eye closer to something you want to line up with a target, so I think they would have tried it. Maybe the belly piece was actually a detachable cocking aid like the windlass or goat's foot?
Another thought, the curved bit does seem a bit awkward in use so there must be a payoff, like being able to cock stronger bows. Those wide spaced handles seem a bit unnecessary for 1 person but you could get two burly blokes leaning on it, and easily cock a 150-200 lb bow.
I interesting modification would be a swiveled or even removable belly bar. It would defeat the name, but it would allow the user to sight down the bow better.
I think they would work great on a ship.
Greek trireme were open on top, lob some arrows in there, hit some rowers and they are screwed.
A boat like that dependent on the rhythm of the rowers.
Working out that the earth is round and getting an approximation of its size? Child's play.
Stirrups and shoulder-stocks? Next level genius.
It's amazing the stuff that people can solve when they put their minds to it, and then also the things that just don't get thought of for hundreds or thousands of years.
It is so strange and pockets weren't invented until around 1600, amazing.
I could picture a long wall with two lines of townspeople with crossbows behind cover such as on a wall, first line are the ones who have shown they have a knack for hitting with the crossbow, behind them stands another line of the people who might only have a knack for eating and drinking that continually reloads, with more people or children running around with new baskets of bolts. The rate of fire would probably be rather impressive with a low skill ceiling.
The fact something like it seems to have existed does not mean there were not skilled hunters with bows on the wall as well, but it might have been a weapon to get the most out of the available people, and maybe exactly what was needed when it was created.
In that configuration, it seems natural to shoot un-aimed at an upwards angle, ideal for shooting from the top of a wall at advancing enemies. You could easily shoot from behind cover. The minimal training required means that everyone in town is suddenly an archer, men women and children of all ages, not just your trained soldiers.
This is a fantastic video with one of my favorite weapons of ancient times. Just as a few notes I almost feel like the gastraphetes would be used almost like the Chu Ko nu/Zhuge crossbow. You would teach a group of levies who weren't trained enough for melee combat and use them as a defensive tool at a siege. Park them on the wall and have them shoot down at an angle/straight down at the enemy soldiers. In that scenario, the problems with accuracy would be solved due to the angle of shooting being at a favorable angle. It is also possible for this to be used in offensive sieges with a group of soldiers/engineers who were skilled with the gastaphetes and could plink off/harass enemies on a wall whilst being outside the range of other small missiles like javelins, slings, bows since this can be interpreted as the predecessor to proper siege engines.
It is possible that both were used in defensive sieges. However, both the Gastraphetes and the Zhuge repeating crossbow weren't used very much and seemed to be "niche" or rare weapons. In ancient China, the far more powerful standard shot crossbows and regular bow were much more common than the repeating crossbows. In ancient Greece, besides a few often hand mentions about a small group of mercenaries carrying them, javelins, slings, and regular bows were far more common. However, in East Asia, there were much larger light field artillery repeating crossbows that would have been mounted on a platform (eg. wagon or chariot) or on top of a wall - and these would've done much more damage than handheld repeaters.
@@Intranetusa oh most definetly, both the zhuge cross bow and gastraphetes took much more time and effort to make than a normal crossbow and had cheaper, just as effective alterantives. The idea is there at least to me but at least on the gastraphetes which doesn't have as much recorded use and nothing detailing it's exact purpose, we can only guess and elaborate until more evidence is found about it. Both are amazing examples of humand trying to find out how to stab other humans from far away.
I i enjoyed the opening. Just going to go get that...
Hey Tod, could you experiment with waxing the stalk along the area where the chord scrapes the wood? Maybe you could get a higher velocity out of the arrow without having more complexity in the design or access to expensive materials.
Very interesting and mysterious stuff! Love to see those results! I think your assumptions are correct
Am I the only one terrified that Tod's going to rip off one of his fingers?
I have always thought that the Bellybow got its name because to load you bend at the belly. I also wonder if the docking Handel was removed before it was shoot slowing it to be rasied to aim when shooting
If the trigger comes back close enough, the handle can be used as a horizontal pistol grip.
But 3:15 is how this thing is really aimed. Ribs can be used as a range gauge to aim precisely with the arrow point.
Shooting from the chest or under chest height could maybe work too? Have you tried those positions?
exactly - one of the books on ancient engineering mentioned this and their opinion was that it was called the belly weapon because thats how it was loaded. i dont see any reason it couldnt be shot like a normal crossbow
“We know that from the name?” Maybe it’s named be the method of loading? Do we have a Greek name for it written on a vase or something? Not a name an archeologist came up with.
Warfare of the period wasn't short on manpower and relied on large formations (think phalanx or legion). This accuracy seems more than adequate.
Also tod needs to check out the video on the roman bullets used in their war slings.
Although if you do have fortifications available, I would assume you could lay it on top of a stone/brick wall or pallisade, between merlons, (or from a wide enough window) and shoot it that way. I'd assume the belly/hip release would only be used in the open. If you have wall for support, maybe it would be less awkward than a free-standing shoulder release?
Can you theoretically shoot it like a normal crossbow instead of from the hip?
you could make the end for the belly a separate part and put it over the end of the crossbow for loading, put it away for shooting and when you walk with it you could connect it with a pin.
Excellent video. I think that weapon was perfectly suited for its era of warfare. It’s their version of “artillery”. I think that would have been an area weapon. Think about 400 conscripts firing those at max range into massed infantry? Even with those massive Greek Sheilds it would have caused some casualties, and definitely slowed their movement or broke sections of their formations. So I don’t think sniping was a primary consideration. Just an added bonus. Thanks again. Cheers 🍻
I know very little about Greek warfare, but it seems like it'd be easy to fire over a shield wall. Kind of reminds me of the plumbatae you demonstrated before. If you angle it up and have buddies in front with shields, they could provide your cover, if it's supposed to be fired like this.
Great channel Tod, bringing parts of our history to life. Not interested in modern firearms etc, but the skill our ancestors showed and skills they had to learn were pretty amazing - war, unfortunately, has always been a big part of our history, very interesting though.
In battle, you'd really only get those two or three shots. As the enemy charges, being able to deliver a timed volley exactly when needed would be very powerful. The other key situation that comes to mind is sieges. instead of having to hold the bow drawn you'd be waiting for a target to reveal themselves.
Indeed gastra (γαστηρ) means belly in greek (ancient)
Aphetes (αφέτης) means releaser. We call the man that shoots the gun to let the runners know they should start running αφέτη. Funny i never herd of this one before!
Very interesting presentation, thank you!