Hi Ed Sinofsky! That is AWESOME - I LOVE to hear that!!! And, I can not wait to get my new wheels for this bike! I should have my new ICAN wheels by the end of the month and will be posting like crazy! I know they will spin right out of the gate!!
My GIANT SLR1's are a super set of wheels, in my test the front wheel spun for 12 minutes before it eventually stopped....they roll great, even on our rough Irish roads
HI Ciarán McArdle ! Yeah, I think I was just the unlucky one - it happens. My friend James has some on his Propel (rim brake and older) and they roll great. Some of my comments say theirs are great like yours, and others have had the same problem - just the luck of the draw. I still ride them ( you will still see them in my newer videos) and just think of the resistance as training. I will continue to ride this until the wheels fall off (so to speak), or until I can no longer ride..... or until I get another new bike..... or..... Thank you Ciarán McArdle ! 😁
Just tested this on my own carbon wheels, handbuild with I9 hubs. They have been made tubeless. The experiment with the valve stem shows your exact result with my wheels. This behavior is indeed being caused by the fluid in the wheels. All proper setup tubeless wheels will show this behavior. Best of luck with your recovery!
Thank you Cornelis Zijlstra! Here is a video where I let a friend of mine ride THIS bike with THESE wheels - ua-cam.com/video/oFyq7kq2gZY/v-deo.html - he came to same conclusion. And.... I use the same orange sealant in ALL my wheels. These particular wheels have been back to the shop where I bought it that is a Giant dealer. Once was for THIS problem that started showing up as I was burning in the pads, and once about a month after that because they had gone so far out of true, you could feel it on descents. Not ALL Giant wheels.... just THIS set. THESE are pure crap. Plus, it gives me a chance to get new wheels from a company I know will be spot on high end from the word go. I will set them up tubeless to do this again! :) THESE wheels - THESE - are crap. LOL
There will be less rotational momentum in a disc wheel because the weight is closer to the centre as the lack of a braking surface on the rim means they weigh less. It’s possibly the reduced fly wheel effect that contributes to sticky feeling. Although equally possible that a mass produced wheel could be poorly toleranced and over priced because its carbon. In the market for a TCR and deciding between Non Pro/disc or non disc so will be slinging them up in the show room!
Hi Nigel Slator ! Thank you for the comment - I half agree with you LOL. There is more mass at the center of a disc wheel for sure, but when rotating.... the physics of rotation on an object without something to hold it in place is to move outward in a straight line i.e. gravity or the strength required of a helicopter blade due to inertia. These particular wheels just had problems rolling. I have had others tell me theirs are fine so I will guess it is just this set. The new wheels I have on the bike now are a night and day difference and are a pleasure to ride. And, I do agree with you that disc wheels at a drop will not spin like rim wheels, but at speed or ramping up to speed there should be no difference - again, just these wheels. My new ones are amazing! My friends Zipps (yes disc) are almost like my new ones - almost.... Thank you again Nigel Slator!
@@titantim27 HI Tim. Nope! I use ICAN wheels. I have been riding them for years. Here is one video - ua-cam.com/video/Stc_6dkEK5w/v-deo.html and here is the Unboxing My new ICAN Aero 40s for disc... ua-cam.com/video/8Cu3fRpemKs/v-deo.html Over the years, I have ridden many brands. I got a set of their wheels years ago to try to break them. All these years later, that is all I ride. With in the next month, I should have one of their new A9 frames and I will be putting the new wheels and Dura Ace Di2 disc on it. I absolutely love their stuff!
I always thought that it's more important how the bearings behave under load (rider on the bike) Some bearings can appear to roll better without load just because of the seals (or lack of them, like in some fulcrums the inside seal is not there, so less drag) but it is hard to measure..
Kirill Sharikov, thank you - you are correct. I did not have the tools to really measure any of that so an many have commented, my "tests" are not at all scientific..... and I agree. But like anything, you get a feel for something after using it for while, or with experience on many different wheels in this case, over the years. I no longer have this bike or these wheels, but what I can tell you is the stock wheels that came on my Bianchi other than being and feeling heavy, are AWESOME and the roll extremely well. The wheels that came on this bike were the worst I had ever ridden even over entry level bikes in the shop I worked at. These particular wheels were garbage. Thank you Kirill! 🤗💖
The real test has to be on the road period!. I own a set of SLR ONE on my TCR Pro Team, and let me tell you that no body beat me when we go down hill or flat, and I’m telling you that I ride with people who has the most expensive Mavic, Shimano etc brands, on Pinarello Canondale Specialized bikes.
Hi Javier Alvarado ! Thank you for the comment. Normally, that is me! THESE wheels that came on THIS bike are simply ....... junk. Could be bad bearings, could just be the seating. Either way, to me, they are unrideable. The new set of ICAN wheels I put on there are a night and day difference - ua-cam.com/video/Stc_6dkEK5w/v-deo.html Again, it is THESE wheels. They came in so out of true and I really have no inclination to throw money at them. And really, I got this bike because it was cheap (inexpensive) so that I could try the discs and the Di2. ua-cam.com/video/xNnglf5Bg5w/v-deo.html My next bike will be all Dura Ace Di2 and disc with the aggressive geometry that I prefer. The Propel is an amazing ride!! I was hoping for more from Giant ...... Thanks again Javier Alvarado! :)
I bought a set of ICANs based largely on your reviews and I loved them on my Franco Balcom. I always do the same spin test with all my wheels where you let the valve stem drop from the top. MY ICANs spin forever. I show my friends how even rear tries to drop back to center bottom on the last rotation if not for the hub ratchet. I just purchased the 2019 Giant TCR 1 KOM and the wheels are the aluminum version of the ones you have. I will be converting to ICANs asap. Thanks for the info.
Hi Stan Saito! I thank you for that information! ICANs are the BEST rolling wheels I have ever ridden and I do have a new set on the way for this bike. It will be an amazing machine at that time. The only down side is that I will not be riding until February due to my shoulder, but it really does give me something to look extremely forward to!! Thank you again Stan.
Do you think the SLR 0 which are the wheels that come with the Giant SL better? I think the SLR 0 has DT Swiss hubs. Not sure what hubs the SLR 1 has. do you think it is the rubbish hubs? Thanks
Hi Trekky D Love Cake! These hubs are stamped Giant so they my have re-branded DT Swiss hubs - I really do not know. I was hoping this would be a great bike out of the box and good to go. These wheels specifically have been bad from the first ride. They were starting to harder and harder to rotate as I was braking in the brake pads - I took it to the shop, they adjusted as best they could (they are a Giant dealer) and it was ridable. Then both front and back - most front started going out of true so again it went back to the shop. now they are true (for now I would guess) but the drag still remains. I don't want to keep fighting the resistance so I am going with my favorite wheelset that I KNOW will be spot on out of the box, will spin and will remain enjoyable to ride as long as I have this bike..... until I get my next one!!
Hi Sam Bagley! Nope LOL. It is just these wheels. I will do this test one more time using weights on the wheels just before I set up my new bike. It is this wheelset itself. That was the one reason I took them off the bike to spin them .... to hopefully show the amount of NON-roll!
Hi Francois Pretorius! Well, if you have the rim properly sealed, with proper tubeless rim tape, the air will not escape unless you are not also using a sealant. The holes on the sides are usually to let water out that might get in.
I watched both videos regarding the wheels. I own a set of SLR 0 and SLR 1 wheel sets and they spin absolutely fine. Great hubs and light weight. I’m not sure what happened to your wheel but I feel like you are over hyping how bad these wheels are. You didn’t even take the time to learn the name of the wheel but you take the time to do a very unscientific spin down test. Figure out what’s wrong with your particular wheel before bashing the entire lineup. Not trying to be rude here, just my opinion. Thanks
Hi TishGSXR! I am really NOT trashing the entire line at all and it it came off that way.... that was not my intention. These had already been back to the shop as they came in so out of true and they did lube the bearings and that made it a bit better. However, it is ONLY this set and it is most likely the bearings. I do LOVE how stiff they are for sure though. And when I let my friend James ride it, as we were riding, the feels like riding through sand was his comment. I already knew that. The spin down test is all I could think of to do. I compared these wheels to another riding buddy's Zipps and there was a night and day difference. For me, I like spending money that I do not have to get the best possible product I can. THIS wheelset only, that came on THIS bike does not live up to that. And, if in some of the older comments, you will see others with the SAME wheelset that have the same problem. And with Giant's history and reputation, I expected better. I know every company scrimps here and there and not every top end product is perfect as well. This is just my opinion on THIS wheelset only! I hope I cleared up some of that. Thank you again TishGSXR!
John Knowles a Cyclist Thanks for the reply. I understand your frustration. It is a shame things like this happen for the money we pay. I am surprised considering the hubs are supposed to be DT Swiss, but I’m starting to wonder if Giant uses a cheaper bearing or if it’s just a quality control issue.
@@TishGSXR Stuff happens and I really think it is just this set. I just want to ride this beautiful bike and not fight it. Another opinion I have, and just me, is that until you get the bike dialed in JUST RIGHT, a tweek here, an adjustment here, change this to make it personal to you, it is just a shelf bike. I am working on setting it up just right for me. I do plan on riding it all summer her in California and in Nevada near Lake Tahoe...... and filming it all the way. Thank you again TishGSXR! :)
dude, unless you push 35-45 km/hr you are clueless what a good wheel is as what a fast car at 250-300 km/hr. zipp firecrest 303 404 have such a low angular momentum that they are 2 km hr slower than my Enve SES and DT swiss arc (which is 2.3 km faster than Zipp). yes giants are garbage performers move on with the paradigm shift, and accept his testimony. yep, not all wheels are created equal and you get what you pay for. do you drive a toyota or a hyundai? none are a 911!
Hi Marc Newland! It is NOT the fluid - I use the same in my clinchers with tubes. ua-cam.com/video/3u8ep9g8Z_o/v-deo.html And, those wheels are no longer tubeless. It is the hubs. These particular ones are simply cheap crap. I have them back on this bike for now since the new wheels I replaced these with are on my new bike. Again, it is just THESE wheels, not Giant. I love the rest of the bike!
I have a giant propel with the same wheels, but I am running specialised turbo cotton tyres with tubes and don't have the same problem. I also have a set of American Classic hurricane wheels running tubeless on 32s and tried your test, especially the same thing happened as your giant wheels. You can't expect fluid running slowly around a wheel not to have an effect on the rotation, also if you feel that the bearings are creating enough drag to actually slow you down then that energy has to be going somewhere, the real test would be to ride on rollers for 20 minutes with your other wheels, test the temperature of the hub and then do the same with the giant hub. If they really have that much drag there will be a massive difference. Thanks for the reply by the way, most youtubers don't bother 👍
Just watched your vid link on putting sealant into your tubed wheels. I feel you didn't put enough sealant in to make any wait difference. I assume you put the correct 2oz amount in the giant wheels. To me watching both videos just clarifys that it's the fluid, that said I would be really interested in seeing the same test with no tyres on.
@@marcnewland337 Hi Marc! I might have to try it with no tires on there. They are set up with tubes right now, but I may go back to tubeless with the Continental 5000s. And yes, measuring what it shows on the bottle.
Now John, yes some hubs are horrible..but something most people don't do, is adjust the preload on the axle...that can affect the drag on the wheel. But in most cases its all about bearing preload..
Hi Robert Sandoval. I understand, but these are just plain..... it really feels like cheap bearing with REALLY heavy grease to make them roll. They are stiff though.
@@kondrashovivan Hi Ivan Kondrashov! It is quite possible and it is a shame that they are like this. I am selling them and I am going to be riding ICAN wheels which I love anyway. Thank you Ivan!
It was most likely cheap wheel bearing - the hoops felt pretty cheap as well. I used ICAN wheels and it was a night and day difference. But overall, it was not a great experience and I ended up giving the bike away after less than a year. I wont buy another.
Hi IksgnobaT! Thank you for the comment I think it is just these hubs, but with a new set of wheels, they should not feel like this. Another thing I just noticed the other day is that they are again going out of true which tells me the spoke length is incorrect. I have have been doing this a really long time. THIS wheels set is simply crap.
Can I ask why not take the wheels to where the bike was purchased as giant has good service reps and I’m sure they can replace them and then your selling a perfectly brand new set
Hi Action Jackson! I already did..... when they went out of true a month into riding them. That is another thing I forgot to mention in the video. That is where they saved money. maybe I just got a bad set, but I would have changed them anyway. :) John
Hi Erik Knudsen! Giant is re-branding for sure. The wheel set that came on this bike must just have some bad bearing which happens. These also were quite out of true. I have since purchased new wheels and I have to say there is a night and day difference. Thank you for the information!
I just did the same test on the SLR One stock wheel, non-disc with rim brakes from 2018 TCR ADVANCED SL 2, tubeless with sealant. It behaved pretty much the same as your test. I got the TCR to replace my stolen super fast fully ultegra Surly Pacer with decent shimano wheels and schwalbe pro ones, I cannot beat PR's I made on the surly with the new TCR. I thought it was the Gavia Race 0 tires that were slow, never thought it would be the hubs, yikes!
Hi jjsmitty7. I have to tell you that I still have those wheels, now with tubes. Those Giant wheels are simply.... junk. The Gatorskins roll better. I have my ICAN AERO 40s that I bought to replace those stock wheels. They are now on my A9 frame, but last weekend I put the AERO 40s on the TCR as a comparison - studio.ua-cam.com/users/video_qGfYzOK8vw/edit The AERO 40s are set up tubelss and it is an imediate, night and day difference. Those stock wheels are also junk...... but I will keep them for now so that if I have someone that wants to ride it, it has wheels. I WISH I could demonstrate to everyone that thinks those Giant wheels are great, just how bad they are. I guess all my years of riding and experience mean nothing.... Again, thank you for the input.
@@JonnyPink65 Do you know if the SLR One bearings can be replaced with something better? My rims are true. Today I put on a 28c GP5000 TL on the rear. Adequate clearance on the TCR. It Inflated with a track pump which was a pleasant surprise. From my ride today I could tell the contis are faster than the stock Gavia tires.
@@Revit7 I am sure they can be replaced. They should be rebranded DT Swiss hubs. One thing I just noticed about you first post - Shimano wheels...... ! I had some old RS20s I think it was and those were probably some of the BEST rolling wheels I have ever had. They were HEAVY and spun up slow, but when they were moving.... WOW. I will just tell you now, IMO - not matter what anyone tells you. You will not get that performance from these wheels.
Hi John, First off, love your vids, great stuff. Thanks for posting this demonstration. I agree there is something not right on those Giant wheels. I'm about to purchase a TCR with those same wheels and now definitely concerned. But my question is, those Giant wheels have pretty decent hubs and should have good bearings, so based on your experience, what do you think is causing the poor rolling quality? And is it something you can repair/remedy? PS One more thing, the Giant TCR I'm going to purchase has tubeless, any comments on running tubeless???
Hi e 511 keV ! First, let me say THANK YOU to you! I appreciate it more than a simple thank you can convey! :) Well, as far as these wheels, I think it is something in THESE bearings. I have taken them apart, and it is about the same. They came in out of true so it is probably just these wheels. I have new wheels - ua-cam.com/video/oZQGt2nuGX8/v-deo.html - and there is a night and day difference in the performance. It was not a scientific comparison, but it is an accurate representation as to what I was going through with these wheels. This is a fantastic, stiff bike and handles really well both climbing AND going down hill. Not ultimately the geometry I prefer, but still a fantastic bike. Get it, ride it, enjoy it and have fun. Again, I am pretty sure it is just this set - I was unlucky! Again, thank you!!!! ;)
Hi Stanley G. No, that is why I did the same test with the wheels off the bike. It is either the bearings, bad hubs, or really heavy grease on cheap hubs!
Hi John Keighley ! No, these, on these are the ONLY ones I am referring to, just do not roll! Disappointing for the first set of Giant wheels that I personally own. The ICAN wheels I replaced them with are a night and day difference.
Hi Han安帝 ! Yes, I would guess it is the bearings as well. I am happy with my ICAN wheels that I can swap over, but I still ride them and think of it as resistance training. At some point I will change the bearings to ceramic, but for now...... I have my other wheels. 😁
I've had Mavics, Richie, Shimano and now I have the giants SLR 1 wheelset and none of those other wheels rolled freely or while riding the bike as well as my giant SLR wheels do, there is definitely something wrong with your tests because they are great wheels
Hi Nicholas Fouche ! Yeah, these just have a bad set of bearings, but the hoops still feel like cheap plastic to me. They are the worst wheels that I would compare to the stock Fuji wheels that come on the SST I bought when my shiftier on my Cervelo when out and I could not wait the week without a bike until the new one came in. THIS wheel-set... is cheap crap. It is my opinion and I stand by it. I ride these wheels on my trainer and as resistance trainers when getting ready to travel. The older set the rim brakes that my friend James has on his Propel are AWESOME. Ah well..... Giant had to save money somewhere on their re-branded hubs. I got the bad ones. 😁
I've the same set of SLR One wheels on my 2019 Giant Propel Advanced 1 disc and they run perfect. I conducted the same test with mine and they move up and down for minutes, I had no issues with them going out of true so perhaps you were unfortunate with the set you got...ps I love my bike and wheels.
Hi Ciarán McArdle! Not a scientific test but accurate with THESE wheels. And, I do think I just have a bad set. Even after still riding them and all this time, they just dont have the spin the ICANs do. They are better but not much. I call it, resistance training! Gonna have to do it again with the the wheels - no tires or tubes....
@@JonnyPink65 Hi John, if you got poor quality/defective wheels on a new Giant bike then Giant really should have replaced them for you as they would have been under warranty. I would not let it go, when you pay good money for goods you should expect to get the best. Regards Ciarán
@@ciaranmcardle6175 They replaced the fork that came in chipped. I would not get them to replace wheels that feel slow or under-performing...... as an opinion based on my experience. Who am I?? - no one special. I will ride them for resistance training and ride my ICAN AERO 40s when I want or need superior performance! 😁
This test without pressure on the wheels would be more valid if you use the exact same type and amount of bearing grease, or ceramic speed oil for ceramic bearings.
It would have for sure. That was a long time ago and those wheels were so bad, I gave them away with the bike! It could have just been those wheels and those bearings, but either way..... they were terrible 🤗❤🙏
Hi karting kart! As I said in one of my other replies, I use the same orange sealant in all my wheels. This is a video where I let a friend of mine ride the bike to give me his opinions. ua-cam.com/video/oFyq7kq2gZY/v-deo.html These wheels are simply cheap crap. They have already been back to the shop that is a Giant dealer. Once was for this problem - they "fixed" it as best they can, and once was because they went so far out of true it was silly. I will find another way to show.... these do not roll and are at best, entry level wheels! A high end wheel from any manufacturer will roll with no resistance for a while. These simply .... stop. Thank you karting kart. :)
@@JonnyPink65 Hello, I think you check only the bearing quality with your test and the imbalance of the wheel. A good wheels should be stiff + light + aerodynamique + have good bearing. I think the "feeling" is not a good way to make a choice. I give you 2 links to compare wheels in a more scientifical way. ua-cam.com/video/VHsLMCTkFso/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/lC4OoBp_teg/v-deo.html I buy exactly the same bike as you, As soon as I receive it I give you my opinion ;)
@John, you need to measure / test the wheel's performance under load...just like bearing testings (as oppose to spinning them just with their own weight). e.g. The same bearing performs differently with different amount of load. A bearing may spin well unloaded, but perform poorly under load (or vice-versa). Wheels are the same (as they're an extension of the bearing(s) in a coupled system). The chart you get when testing under different load level is the overall characteristic of the wheel (for the spin motion. Aerodynamic is another aspect of the wheel, of course).
Hi Chatbox VPN! Yeah, but I could not think of a way to really get the "lack of roll" across so this is how I presented it.I can tell you that I put those wheels back on the bike for today's ride www.strava.com/activities/2359505794 as the new ones I bought to replace these are at the shop going on the new bike being built for me. These wheels - and this is all I am referring to - are still a night and day difference. I will ride these only until I get another set. I was out on Wednesday climbing Gibraltar in Santa Barbara and took my Cervelo because I knew the drag these wheels have would not work up that climb. www.strava.com/activities/2352527956 Love this bike but NOT this particular wheel-set. Ah well...... Thank you Chatbox VPN!
They both have advantages and disadvantages. Discs rub and that is why Chris Froom was against them for as long as he could hold out - very annoying. They do stop quicker. Rim breaks easy to adjust on the fly if need but take longer to stop. 🙏🤗💖
Checking the bearings by spinning an unloaded wheel is absolutely MEANINGLESS. A wheel that does not spin very long unloaded will behave very differently when under load. That's what counts. I don't care if my wheel spins for 5 minutes or 5 seconds in the repair stand. I care how it perform on the road. A bearing that is absolutely dry will spin much more freely when not under load than a bearing that has be fully greased. Yet try those bearings when under load and you will see the difference. The bearings with grease will spin much more freely and smoothly. For someone who worked in a bike shop you did not learn very much. To check the condition of a bearing, you spin it and look for smoothness and no noise. Not how long it spins
Hi rap122462! I do understand that...... I also understand that as all of us cyclists, we like the way a piece of equipment "feels" as well. These wheels feel very entry level and the performance has not improved with the "break in" as some have suggested, or the load bearing as you suggest.. The hoops feel almost plastic, the wheels are heavy and slow. I will stand by my opinion based on what I have ridden over the years. EVERY bike company saves money somewhere and this in my opinion, is where Giant has saved money. It could be just these bearings, but again as you know, the hoops and spokes play a part in the performance of the wheels as well. i would never say this is scientific test, but it does show what I think of these wheels. Slow entry level training wheels. I thank you for the comment though!
Hi Roberto Robles! Quite possibly. I think it is just THIS wheelset. I have had people say it is the tires, the sealant, the..... Truth is, I have sealant in all my wheels, I let afriend of mine ride it and he came to the same conclusion. ua-cam.com/video/oFyq7kq2gZY/v-deo.html What I failed to mention is that these have already been back to the shop ( a Giant delaer) for this very problem, and because they went so far out of true, it could be felt while riding. I think I just got a bad set and it happens. It also gives me an excuse to but a new set of ICAN wheels that I love so much. I call it a win win..... :)
Hi Chris Chupp! Well, I think it is combination of things. The bearing in the hubs and the weight of the hoops. I DO still ride them on this bike but they are noticibly heaver than the ICANs I replaced them with and that are now on my TRIAERO A9. I look at it now as resistance training!!! 😁
I sold that whole bike a long time ago. The hubs would have been fine but I think the bearings were jest crap. That bike performed so much better with another set of wheels. 🤗❤
Hi Andrew Baillie! No, I bought another set - night and day difference from the get go. It had to have been the bearings or grease. What came on there is a REALLY BAD set. And, I did compare them to some Zipps a friend of mine rides. These particular wheels have problems.
not a good test.....it tells me the wheel is more balanced than the others. with a perfectly balance wheel there should be no turn. in fact if you increase the valve weight you would get the same turning behavior as other less perfectly balanced wheels. Redo your test with the valves replaced by a known weight and no tires.
Hi massive yellow ! Not true - both have valves and the tubeless vales are heavier. In any event it you have been riding for a while, you know the difference between performance and entry level.... and these are/were entry level at best. Switching those wheels made a WORLD of difference. Bearings, spokes and hoops make a bigger difference that the valves which is why some wheels are used for racing that are described a jumping to speed..... those did not even require much braking even with the calipers adjusted. AND.... another thing that told me they were cheap and poorly make - they kept going out of true - entry level CRAP! I no longer have that bike - I gave it away for a variety of reasons.
Hi! I have the same wheelset (rim brakes, to be accurate), I made the same test, I had the same result. Still, there are people out there saying this test is meaningless because it doesn't represent the behavior of the wheel in the real world (the road). I don't know... Also, can all this poor rolling be caused by bad bearing? Bad grease? Grease become old? Have you tried anything to improve this? As far as I know hubs are made by DT Swiss! Cheers!
Hi marcob32 ! Well, they are correct in some respects - the test is meaningless with out a load. All I can tell you is that from my experience over the years, cheap bearings, heavy grease.... make a wheel roll slowly. Go into a chain store that sells cheap bikes (Walmart here) and spin the wheels on one of the bikes. You will see about the same performance as the Giant wheels - they have to save money somewhere correct? Other big brand name bikes mix components etc on lower priced bikes. When I put my other wheels on there that just roll with no resistance, there is a HUGE difference in performance. My friend James has the rim brake model and they seem OK. Mine..... still feel about the same and I consider it resistance training LOL. Yes, you can replace the bearings..... but the hoops the fell plasticey and cheap to me also play into it. Again, just my opinion. 😁 Thank you marcob32
@@JonnyPink65 hi John! Few weeks after our messages I replaced the bearings with good ones. I had great expectations about that, but still no joy. But few days ago I removed the tire from the wheel, to change it, and of course the latex liquid went away. Then I tried once again to perform your test and... Surprise! The wheel itself spins very well! In my opinion it's the liquid, the amount of liquid latex who acts as an hydraulic brake (to say so). If so, every tubeless tire should have the same behavior. What about? Cheers
@@marcob32 Hi marcob32! I used a couple of wheels as tubeless.... and I am not a fan. I will ONLY use tubes now. Just my preference and it seems that you have found yourself one of those reasons as well. 😁💖
i have a few different wheel-sets ant the giant slr0 are my (best/most expensive)wheels i own and the rear wheel is great in my opinion but the front just doesn't roll easy enough ,ive taken back to Giant shop twice and an independent shop (friend) many times and they ve had new sealed bearings of better quality than giants recommended bearings fitted but still not has good has any of my decent wheels even Chinese 38mm wheels ,it appears that the bearings spin free and smooth until put into the wheels and even if taken out spin freely again ,but the giant shop recons im too fussy and there FINE but now the front wheel is a FINE at best wheel not being used ,ps i love giant bikes and am gutted that my beautiful giant propel sl has odd wheels on
Hi drexel spivey! What I am getting is that the SLR Zero is a better wheel than the SLR One that I have. I have a new set of ICAN Aero wheels on the way and with out even riding them, I know they will be a million times better. I have had a change to ride so many different wheels and in my opinion, the ICAN wheels are the best. And yes they are UCI certified. I also plan on comparing them to my friends ZIPPs which will be fun! Thank you drexel!!
Jose - I thought I replied..... I think I had bad bearings, but those wheels were also going out of true. Those hoops felt like more plastic than carbon.... but, Giant has to save money somewhere. I have since sold that bike. Thank you for the input!😁
I’d take the wheels back under warranty rather than slag them off. You got unlucky that is all. DT Swiss hubs are far superior to the generic crap on the icans.
Hi Sam Bagley ! Understand, I am only speaking of THIS wheelset, not ALL Giant wheels. My friend James has a Propel and I love it and do plan on getting a new one later this year myself - heavy, but an amazing ride. You are correct in that I should have taken the wheels in but in reality, I bought this bike because it was inexpensive and gave me a chance to try disc brakes so it was just not worth it to me. And as far as ICAN generic..... well, I was like you and so many once thinking the name on the wheels or product had weight - it does not. For many years, NOVATEC was the LARGEST maker of hubs industry wide whether their name was on it or it was re branded. DT Swiss is in on that now as well. ICAN uses the same DT Swiss hubs, NOVATEC, and their own R01 hubs (your choice) - I have all three on different wheels. Shimano I think, has the BEST rolling hubs I have used but with all hubs, the bearing are key. Spokes.... I use the Sapim CX-Ray spokes just like the other big name brands - I just pay less. I have a quality wheel that you can feel when you ride. I am still riding the Giant wheels and the change in tires made a difference but they still feel entry level to me. The stickers on there seem cheap and Walmart like. As far as ICAN, I got my first set to try to ride to failure and I am still riding them. Think about it for a second - if ICAN were a sponsor in the tour, the perception would be different.We all (including me) clamor after the names and products we see the pro teams using. Yes, there is cheap Chinese knock off crap out there but I would put ICAN up against ANY of the other big name wheels in quality, durability and performance - just my opinion based on my experience. One last thing I would ask you....., look at the country of origin on your bike.... where does it say it was made?
Hi John Gibson! I agree - it is not scientific AT ALL. I will tell you it is just THESE wheels - not any other Giant wheels, just these. I could not think of any other way to try to show it. I should show it again now that I have have clinchers on there.
@@carlosgaspar8447 Hi carlos gaspar! I really had no way of testing that - don't have those gauges or tools. If anyone is around here, there is a 16% hill behind where I live with a short fast descent on the back. Take the same bike with these wheels and another and you can FEEL the difference. Not at all scientific either but you can feel it. Sometimes as riders as you know, it just comes down to feel and preference. These have an entry level feel and drag to me..... but that would not make for a very good video! 😁
obviously you never studied physics. he demonstrated gyroscopic inertia properties even without math to confuse you... a good wheel had a stronger inertia and good angular momentum e.g. HeD, enves boras etc...
Hi Mario Schwarz! I run the same sealant in ALL my wheels - even those with tubes. Going to be working on another video soon showing that. The sealant should not effect the rotation. The other wheels I show in this video ALL have the orange sealant inside.
I'm struggling with these wheels. Everything I read says they're amazing, but mine feel like riding into a head wind. No rotor rub, correct tyre pressure and way slower than my old bike with fulcrum racing wheels. Guess I'll sell these and buy a set of fulcrum disk wheels.
Hi Tim French!! You are feeling EXACTLY what mine feel like. I use them as training wheels now due to the increased resistance. You will defiantly feel the improvement with the fulcrum wheels. If I may make one suggestion check out ICAN - icancycling.com/collections/aero-series-wheelset/products/carbon-road-bike-wheels-aero-40-wheelset I have been riding the for years and find them superior to everything else i have used. Check my chanel - i have so much stuff about them up there. you will notice a big difference at a great price! ua-cam.com/video/8Cu3fRpemKs/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/tBFNedn-QQE/v-deo.html
Hi Sheldon Diaz! No, it is a bad SET of wheels! I do use sealant in ALL my wheels. ua-cam.com/video/3u8ep9g8Z_o/v-deo.html I this is really unscientific but is was the best way I could think of to show how bad THIS particular set of Giant wheels are. I made this later as a comparison. ua-cam.com/video/Stc_6dkEK5w/v-deo.html
Don’t want to be ruining the fun but it sure looks like the valves are higher on the other wheels and therefor more heavier than on the Giant wheels, causing more momentum. This “test” doesn’t really prove anything about rolling. If you could conclude anything at all, it’s that the Giant wheel could be more balanced, or the bearings on the Giant wheel could have more friction or the inbalance on the Giant wheel has a lower effect/momentum due to the weight of the disc brake beong added to the total weight of the wheel.
Hi Jerry - no, it proved nothing, it was not scientific and was a bogus test - I know that. Those wheels just felt like riding through sand and when I replaced them, it was a night an day differnce. They were entry level CRAP. The hoops felt more like plastic. If I had said THAT, how many more comments would I have gotten. I have been riding a long time and these were just not what I would have expected from Giant. They went out of true twice before I gave the bike away...
Hi Michael! In all my years of riding and everything I had the opportunity to ride, those were the WORST wheels I had every ridden. It could have been the bearings, but the wheels kept going out of true as well. That tells me they are poorly made. Ah well - I gave that bike away. That really turned me off to Giant completely. Thank you Michael. 😁🙏
I've been selling skate bearing for decades. Testing a bearing without a load is nonsense. Simply more or thicker lube in a bearing can make it free spin slow but have no effect under load. Some companies under lube their bearings so the Noobies think cheaper ones must be faster. A fairer test is sitting on the bike and rolling all things being equal.
Thank you DBrain! I do agree, but I will say that the bearing in those wheels were bad. In bike wheels, the way the hoops are made, and the spokes (type) also play into it. In all my years of riding, working on bikes etc, these were worse than some of the entry level wheels I have ridden in the past. Thank you DBrain! 🙏💖
Totally irrelevant testing. Two rimbraked Wheels and the slr one with a disc on a side... what did you expect?!? I recommend retrying it with de disc detached. Slr one is not the best carbon Wheel, but they are definately bang for bucks. And they roll pretty well, even compared to some of my custom build dt-swiss wheels.
Hi Johan Beerden ! Not scientific at all and I agree that is was not a great test. I should have removed the calipers from the bike completely but I think at that time, I had a dislocated shoulder so working on the bike was not possible. After all this time, I do still ride those wheel on that bike....... and they feel about the same - like riding through sand. When I ride them, I consider it resistance training. And so you are aware, the SLRs have re-branded DT Swiss hubs like they have re branded the Jensen power meter on the newer bikes. 99% of the wheels on the market (yes including ZIPP and ENVY - at least they did when I was in the industry) have either DT Swiss or Novatec hubs - re-branded - the bearings are where the difference is at the center. Hoop manufacture and spokes also play into it. These hoops "feel" cheap almost like a plastic. If I put a set of ceramic bearings n there, they would still be heavy and slow to spin up overall in my opinion. So, after many years of riding and trying more than my share of wheels - I will stand my claim that they are entry level wheels - heavy and slow. I do have another set of disc wheels that just roll and roll and roll. When I ride that bike with the other wheels, that bike screams and comes to life. I know many people like their SLRs, but I am not a fan. Just my opinion and $0 .02. If you have a great set, that is awesome - ride and enjoy them until they need new bearings. I do thank you for the comment! 😁
@@alexgeo I am thinking it was in the bearings - they have to save money somewhere. The hubs are rebranded DT Swiss - most manufacturers use rebranded either DT Swiss or Novatec. How the hoops are made also play into how a wheel spins up or feels. These felt like plastic. I no longer have that bike. 😁
Hi Jan Kowalski ! Well, it is THESE wheels. The new ones I replace them with are amazing. Others have had no issues with these particular wheels. I have been doing this for a long time and these particular wheels are about the worst I have ridden. I thought that Fuji entry level wheels were bad, but this wheelset was worse. Again, my new wheels are amazing!! LOL thank you Jan!
@@JonnyPink65 Hi John. What`s hidden behind words "amazing" and "worst"? That would clarify a lot because that what you shown is not a big deal whatsoever. Cheers
@@JanKowalski-pe9lo Hi Jan - Well, amazing with regards to the new wheels... they just roll as I would expect a high end set of wheels to do. I like a wheels set that I can jump on and kick forward in a sprint. The original wheels did not do that. Entry level - big box - Target, Walmart, Fuji wheels ... all feel like the used glue instead of a light grease. You are working just to get the bike to keep moving while riding down a hill. The original wheels that come on MY Giant were like that. I could take it down some really steep descents here and almost never have to tough the breaks except into a sharp hairpin turn. That is the worst. Many have had a great experience with their stock Giant wheel - my friend James for instance, but not mine. He is the only who said they feel like riding through sand and I ran with it. I just think they feel entry level. :) it is not at all what I expected from Giant. It happens though.
@@JonnyPink65 Sorry man but ive just stopped reading here: "I could take it down some really steep descents here and almost never have to tough the breaks except into a sharp hairpin turn." You have no idea what you talking about. Bashing one over the other without good arguments its just childish. Ive gone through dozens of wheels from cheapest as chips to the one from most expensive if not most right now. Thats why i was curious what "they just roll as I would expect a high end set of wheels to do" means. But i doubt i will...
SLR 0 is a better choice. In taiwan, people will sell their stock slr1 but always keep their slr0 and the review is generally very good for slr0 but for slr1, not so much.
Hi Chris Chang! Thank you for the comment. These came on the bike and I was really hoping they would be better than they are. That is good to know about the 0 vs the 1.On the plus side, it gave me a great excuse to but a set of wheels I really want from a company I have used and that I trust! :)
Hi Jacob Heß ! That is good to know. My friend James' older ones he has on his Propel are great. It is just these wheels or bearings....... and, I dont really like the hoops. Glad you have a great set - enjoy them!! 😁
No, the bearing on those were complete crap. The wheels were cheap overall. Most get upset when I say that, but they really were garbage. Great bike and frame but garbage wheels. 🤗💖
That is awesome. I think the bearing in the set that came with this bike were just garbage. The ICAN wheels - both sets, that I replaced the SLRs with also spun forever. 🤗
Hi Ming T - I missed this so my apologies for the delay in response. I have been riding a long time and have been fortunate is what I have had access to. This is in not way scilentific and is laughable, but I will stand by my assessment that THESE wheels are entry level wheels at best - Tiagra components are what I would expect with wheels of this low quality. Just my opinion. I still ride them in the rain, gravel, and consider it resistance training when climbing. I will keep them so that when I sell this bike, I can sell it with all original components. 😊
Thank you Al Duarte! That is EXACTLY what I am politely trying to get across! And, it gives me a good excuse to get another set of wheels from my favorite company!!! Thank you Al!
@@JonnyPink65 To other people you say ot just these set of wheels and now you're makin it look like giant wheels in general are sub-par... makes your replies on others very questionable...
@@raket8177 Hi Randy Ketelaars! I am referring to THESE wheels that came on this bike. I still ride them. My friend James, who rides a Giant Propel can feel the difference between these wheels and his..... and the ICAN wheels that I replaced them with. I am a firm believer that re-branded is not always quality. Yes tires make a difference, tubeless to tube, tire pressure..... but so does the overall quality. It is my opinion that these wheels are even sub par for Giant. I will be getting a Propel next year and will then have another new set to compare to. I WISH I could let people ride the wheels side by side - you would notice the difference on the climb, the flats and the downhill... I ride them as resistance training wheels! :)
Ok if you are such a wheel expert why on earth did you guys cheap wheels then. I been riding for nearly 40years and have these on my giant propel 0 advanced and they are spot on
Mark, I never claimed to be an expert, just a fortunate individual who has had the opportunity to ride MANY wheels and have built and trued many along the way as well for the shop I worked at years ago. Think of it this way - even cheap bearing will work for a while and some may actually preform really well. Inversely, even top of the line products break or have something go wrong. There is a reason the ceramic bearings work so well (all uniform in the race), and reason why some bearing cost WAY more than others. The same goes for the spokes and the hoops. Since you have been riding for so long, you should know that. These wheels went out of true three time in less than a year (once the shop fixed them, I did it the other two times). It could have been a bad press of the bearing on this particular wheelset or just a bad set of bearing in general that made them feel like they were filled with sand. Poor quality nipples would be my guess as to why the spokes keep going out. Many people have Giants and love the wheels - I did not. These cheap, heavy Fulcrums that come on my Bianchi area AWESEOME - heavy but perform really well. Could not say that about that particular set of wheels on that bike. Prior to that bike, I would only ride DuraAce because I preferred the performance - still do. These wheels to me felt like a bike you would get on at a big box store goofing around with your friends. Heck, even the entry level bikes in any shop are better than what came on that bike. In any event, I gave it away and that completely turned me of to Giant as a whole (even though they do press a good many bikes in the industry in their factory.... IN CHINA! Thank you Mark. 😁
Ivan.... I have ridden both! Envy is over priced hype - I have WAY better stuff to do with my money - they did not like me saying that, but it is true in my opinion. Zipps are great but their rim brake wheels do not stop as well as the ICAN with basalt - again my opinion based on my use. And Reynolds..... pure junk. Out of everything I have ridden, the best behind ICAN was Shimano.... they just rolled and rolled. I was extremely fotunate - right place, right time when I was working at a a shop that has recently closed. I had the opportunity to try MANY wheels while there. My S5 came with HED Jets.... not bad, My Mavic (both Carbones and a lower end set both started getting sticky no matter how many times I took them apart and serviced them) and the list goes on - I was fortunate. I got the ICAN over Rollio I think it is to try to break them and prove that Chinese wheels are junk... and I was blown away. Better rolling, better breaking, and WAY cheaper. Again, just my opinion based on my use. And.... ICAN IS UCI certified! Win win.
camerican!! Thank you for the comment. Nothing scientific here. But from experience, these were the WORST crap wheels I have ever ridden Before I gave that bike away, I had the wheels trued once at the shop, and then did it two more times myself. As someone who has built wheels, all I can tell you is that the components and hoops are cheap. The bearings on this were someplace they saved money and used a heavy grease to cover it up. Crap! Thank you for the comment though. 😁
OMG !!! does it mean they produce 0.01W more drag ??? you won't win any race with these !! you will be always at least 6ms slower at the finish line !!!
Hi razorree!! These wheels were TERRIBLE. If you have ever hit a patch of sand..... that is what these felt like when riding, or a constantly rubbing brake pad. You dont expect a big brand name to be THAT bad. 😁
Donavon Bebo!! No worries - I did not like those wheels at all. I have since given that bike away. I will say that those were some of the worst wheels I have ever ridden. Could have just been bad bearings or I just got a bad set, but...... they were garbage. The wheels I put on made a HUGE difference. That was the first Giant I have ever ridden - I got it because it was cheap, and I wanted to try disc and electronic shifting. All I will say it that I will never buy or ride Giant again - it was that bad!!! Thank you Donavon!! 🙏😁
These "tests" are so laughable. Not even remotely related to actual riding. People stop taking this as valid information. Sorry your wheels are not rolling well but what you're doing here proves nothing. Also, bearing do not need to be broken in. That is ridiculous.
Hi Jordan! Well, I agree they are laughable but I had not meters or testing equipment to really show it scientifically. I have been riding a really long time and have been fortunate to have ridden some awesome wheels. To me, these feel like cheap, entry level wheels about like what you would get on a bike with Tiagra components. I still ride them and can feel the drag descending and the resistance climbing. My friend James has an older Propel and those wheels are great - have been since the beginning. When I got this, I had him ride it with saying a thing about the wheels - his reply was "feels like I am riding though sand". Still feels that way and so although my tests are laughable - even to me, The good thing is that down hills, I dont have to brake as much - it is built into the bearings. The hoopss also feel like a plastic carbon composite but that is a review for another time. I may get some Zipps or Reynolds (can't stand those either) to show how plasticity these are. I will stand by my assessment that these are cheap entry level wheels at best. Just my opinion! 😉
@@JonnyPink65 I am sure you can build wheels fine and am probably a good bloke. But, you are rubbishing a product based on a poorly thought out testing process because you lack a basic understanding of physics. Further, you are unconscious of the fact that you lack this basic understanding. HAPPY CYCLING :)
@@Lucky-uk1bv I am sure you a great "bloke" and I never had that in doubt. These PARTICUALR wheels, not all Giant wheels, were poorly made and I may have just been unlucky but I have had many comments both agreeing and disagreeing. I could have changed the bearing and that would have helped quite a bit. They felt like cheap, heavy grease paste had been used to save money. The hoops and spokes go hand in hand in how a wheel spins up, or jumps off the line in a sprint. These just felt like they slept the whole time and wanted more to sit and rest. At first, I had the shop true them when they went out - quite quickly which indicated to me either cheap spokes or poor tension. When it started to go out again, I did it myself..... and again the 3rd time - again cheap spokes. Most people are just going to be happy with it and will not notice I usually use Sapim CX-Ray spokes and these are not those. So again, you may have some fantastic wheels from Giant, but since this was my experience, I will NOT spend money with a big box brand name that makes all their frames in Taiwan and rebrands just about everything. I LOVE Chinese frames and wheels - I just think these that I got were extremely sub par.
Thanks Neil. I could not think of a great way to show what crap those Giant wheels were. All well, I gave it away anyway. Those were the WORST wheels I have ever ridden. They went of to true a couple of times in he rest of that year that I owned that bike. And yes I really did give it away. It was CRAP. 😁
@@neilcowie2329 Neil, my friend James has an older Giant, and his are great. It was just these wheels I think - I got a bad set and it completely turned me off all together.
Hi Billy Tscherne . A decrease in what? I have had them regressed, and have changed tires. I think I just have a bad set. I rode them today 6-15-2019...... these wheels are simply ..... terrible.
Sometime we get what we pay for. Giants are garbage from a serious cycling angle. It is like taking a Hyundai elantra at a track and wondering how come not as good as an M5. not all wheels are created equal. tangibly even within the top tier a delta. Zipp 303 404 being 2 km hrs slower on my race bike vs ENVE SES 4.5 and 2.2 or so slower than DT Swiss arc. reason. low angular momentum and poor gyroscopic inertia... basically they waver S like or into wind like a wing foil. Good wheels do not, anchored like a V on the ground, and keep rolling in a straighter line. yes all my wheel builds had similar spokes and hubs except ENVEs being internal nipples but same spoke type...
Thank you Belisarius! Thank you for making sense. I have never been a fan of Zipps over all, and I just think for a rider that does not know better, these wheels would be OK. But they are not.... and you have said it better than I ever could have! Thank you. 🙏💖😁
Hi Billy Tscherne5! They were by the shop as that was a concern I had as well. Same. So, today 6/15/2019) I was out with tubes and Gatorskins. The bike climbs really well but it is THESE hubs. People are upset that I do not like them and think I am referring to ALL Giant wheels. Nope, just this set. Where you can really feel the drag the most is going down hill. I did get some PRs today - www.strava.com/activities/2452775296 - going up I was racing a guy who was pushing me a little and would pass me when I slowed to film, then I would pass him. LOL going down, I was drafting a line of cars. When I pulled out of the slip stream, I would slow even in a tuck. No worries - I have other wheels!! Thank you Billy. :)
I hated them and gave that entire bike away. Those wheels, NOT all Giant wheels, were junk. The bearings were crap and the hoops felt like plastic. ...... all cheap crap. 😁
Hi JLP Design. I really have to laugh at that and say thanks for commenting on that..... It is an old habit I keep. It started years ago when I had nothing and when I would buy something, it would be closer to the end of the month. I would do that so that if I had to return it to make rent. it would like like it was not used. I still do it once in a while - sometimes out of habit, sometimes I dont notice I am doing it, and other times.... I may not like it and just want to return it. LOL - thank you for noticing. I forgot that it was on there. I am thinking about new monitors and I promise that if I like them, I will remove the plastic!! It has now been removed!! Thank you again - you have just made my day! :)
Thank you johnparker3! I guess my year of riding and wheel building taught me nothing. I have another new bike with stock, heavy Fulcrum wheels and the same rebranded hubs. They are AWESOME! That set I had, came with bad bearing and poor spoke installation or poor hoop molding. It kept going out of true. It was pure CRAP! 😁
Thanks for the input. Maybe I got a bad set of bearing or you have just been lucky. Either way, it left a me with a bad feeling towards Giant and I gave it away. Heavy bike, junk wheels.
@@JonnyPink65 ok...sorry but I'm talking rim brake..not disc..I guess you are talking about disc which I think is a big problem anyway not just giant..I tried disc and sold it again..back to rim adv sl in both propel and tcr and my god can they move..rim all the way with giant wheels on both
Thank you Keith Moore!! You get why I don't like them and you said it better than I did. I also do not like their tires. I think those are garbage as well.... but that is another story.
I have a set of ICAN 50/55 and they are great. Partly based on your video recommendations. And yes they roll very very well. Thanks.
Hi Ed Sinofsky! That is AWESOME - I LOVE to hear that!!! And, I can not wait to get my new wheels for this bike! I should have my new ICAN wheels by the end of the month and will be posting like crazy! I know they will spin right out of the gate!!
My GIANT SLR1's are a super set of wheels, in my test the front wheel spun for 12 minutes before it eventually stopped....they roll great, even on our rough Irish roads
HI Ciarán McArdle
! Yeah, I think I was just the unlucky one - it happens. My friend James has some on his Propel (rim brake and older) and they roll great. Some of my comments say theirs are great like yours, and others have had the same problem - just the luck of the draw. I still ride them ( you will still see them in my newer videos) and just think of the resistance as training. I will continue to ride this until the wheels fall off (so to speak), or until I can no longer ride..... or until I get another new bike..... or..... Thank you Ciarán McArdle
! 😁
Just tested this on my own carbon wheels, handbuild with I9 hubs. They have been made tubeless.
The experiment with the valve stem shows your exact result with my wheels. This behavior is indeed being caused by the fluid in the wheels. All proper setup tubeless wheels will show this behavior.
Best of luck with your recovery!
Thank you Cornelis Zijlstra! Here is a video where I let a friend of mine ride THIS bike with THESE wheels - ua-cam.com/video/oFyq7kq2gZY/v-deo.html - he came to same conclusion. And.... I use the same orange sealant in ALL my wheels. These particular wheels have been back to the shop where I bought it that is a Giant dealer. Once was for THIS problem that started showing up as I was burning in the pads, and once about a month after that because they had gone so far out of true, you could feel it on descents. Not ALL Giant wheels.... just THIS set. THESE are pure crap. Plus, it gives me a chance to get new wheels from a company I know will be spot on high end from the word go. I will set them up tubeless to do this again! :) THESE wheels - THESE - are crap. LOL
There will be less rotational momentum in a disc wheel because the weight is closer to the centre as the lack of a braking surface on the rim means they weigh less. It’s possibly the reduced fly wheel effect that contributes to sticky feeling. Although equally possible that a mass produced wheel could be poorly toleranced and over priced because its carbon. In the market for a TCR and deciding between Non Pro/disc or non disc so will be slinging them up in the show room!
Hi Nigel Slator
! Thank you for the comment - I half agree with you LOL. There is more mass at the center of a disc wheel for sure, but when rotating.... the physics of rotation on an object without something to hold it in place is to move outward in a straight line i.e. gravity or the strength required of a helicopter blade due to inertia. These particular wheels just had problems rolling. I have had others tell me theirs are fine so I will guess it is just this set. The new wheels I have on the bike now are a night and day difference and are a pleasure to ride. And, I do agree with you that disc wheels at a drop will not spin like rim wheels, but at speed or ramping up to speed there should be no difference - again, just these wheels. My new ones are amazing! My friends Zipps (yes disc) are almost like my new ones - almost.... Thank you again Nigel Slator!
John Knowles a Cyclist-Photographer Hi John, when you say new wheels do you mean New Giant wheels? As in replacement set has no issue?
@@titantim27 HI Tim. Nope! I use ICAN wheels. I have been riding them for years. Here is one video - ua-cam.com/video/Stc_6dkEK5w/v-deo.html
and here is the Unboxing My new ICAN Aero 40s for disc...
ua-cam.com/video/8Cu3fRpemKs/v-deo.html
Over the years, I have ridden many brands. I got a set of their wheels years ago to try to break them. All these years later, that is all I ride. With in the next month, I should have one of their new A9 frames and I will be putting the new wheels and Dura Ace Di2 disc on it. I absolutely love their stuff!
@@JonnyPink65 Here you have proof why you are wrong ua-cam.com/video/yLfhl8-4F08/v-deo.html.
If it is its not the drag.
Thanks
I always thought that it's more important how the bearings behave under load (rider on the bike) Some bearings can appear to roll better without load just because of the seals (or lack of them, like in some fulcrums the inside seal is not there, so less drag) but it is hard to measure..
Kirill Sharikov, thank you - you are correct. I did not have the tools to really measure any of that so an many have commented, my "tests" are not at all scientific..... and I agree. But like anything, you get a feel for something after using it for while, or with experience on many different wheels in this case, over the years. I no longer have this bike or these wheels, but what I can tell you is the stock wheels that came on my Bianchi other than being and feeling heavy, are AWESOME and the roll extremely well. The wheels that came on this bike were the worst I had ever ridden even over entry level bikes in the shop I worked at. These particular wheels were garbage. Thank you Kirill! 🤗💖
The real test has to be on the road period!. I own a set of SLR ONE on my TCR Pro Team, and let me tell you that no body beat me when we go down hill or flat, and I’m telling you that I ride with people who has the most expensive Mavic, Shimano etc brands, on Pinarello Canondale Specialized bikes.
Hi Javier Alvarado
! Thank you for the comment. Normally, that is me! THESE wheels that came on THIS bike are simply ....... junk. Could be bad bearings, could just be the seating. Either way, to me, they are unrideable. The new set of ICAN wheels I put on there are a night and day difference - ua-cam.com/video/Stc_6dkEK5w/v-deo.html
Again, it is THESE wheels. They came in so out of true and I really have no inclination to throw money at them. And really, I got this bike because it was cheap (inexpensive) so that I could try the discs and the Di2. ua-cam.com/video/xNnglf5Bg5w/v-deo.html
My next bike will be all Dura Ace Di2 and disc with the aggressive geometry that I prefer. The Propel is an amazing ride!! I was hoping for more from Giant ......
Thanks again Javier Alvarado! :)
Body mass has a lot to do with potential energy. Just saying.
What a joke video. I mean this was highly educational if your in 1st grade science class. Hahahahah. Good try
I bought a set of ICANs based largely on your reviews and I loved them on my Franco Balcom. I always do the same spin test with all my wheels where you let the valve stem drop from the top. MY ICANs spin forever. I show my friends how even rear tries to drop back to center bottom on the last rotation if not for the hub ratchet. I just purchased the 2019 Giant TCR 1 KOM and the wheels are the aluminum version of the ones you have. I will be converting to ICANs asap. Thanks for the info.
Hi Stan Saito! I thank you for that information! ICANs are the BEST rolling wheels I have ever ridden and I do have a new set on the way for this bike. It will be an amazing machine at that time. The only down side is that I will not be riding until February due to my shoulder, but it really does give me something to look extremely forward to!! Thank you again Stan.
Do you think the SLR 0 which are the wheels that come with the Giant SL better? I think the SLR 0 has DT Swiss hubs. Not sure what hubs the SLR 1 has. do you think it is the rubbish hubs? Thanks
Hi Trekky D Love Cake! These hubs are stamped Giant so they my have re-branded DT Swiss hubs - I really do not know. I was hoping this would be a great bike out of the box and good to go. These wheels specifically have been bad from the first ride. They were starting to harder and harder to rotate as I was braking in the brake pads - I took it to the shop, they adjusted as best they could (they are a Giant dealer) and it was ridable. Then both front and back - most front started going out of true so again it went back to the shop. now they are true (for now I would guess) but the drag still remains. I don't want to keep fighting the resistance so I am going with my favorite wheelset that I KNOW will be spot on out of the box, will spin and will remain enjoyable to ride as long as I have this bike..... until I get my next one!!
@@JonnyPink65 ok I have the SLR 0. I think they are great, but I will try the same test and see if I get the same issue.
The Giant SLR 1 wheels come with dt Swiss 360 hubs, while the slr 0 comes with dt Swiss 240 hubs.
@@chrisprotzman6637 Both have the same bearings but the 240 is lighter due to material used. That is what I was told by a rep a while back.
Longer valve? More weight? More momentum?
Hi Sam Bagley! Nope LOL. It is just these wheels. I will do this test one more time using weights on the wheels just before I set up my new bike. It is this wheelset itself. That was the one reason I took them off the bike to spin them .... to hopefully show the amount of NON-roll!
Wat are little holes for on the side of the rim.Myne is tubeles and the air is escaping through the hole
Hi Francois Pretorius! Well, if you have the rim properly sealed, with proper tubeless rim tape, the air will not escape unless you are not also using a sealant. The holes on the sides are usually to let water out that might get in.
The tubeless milk also slows them down in such a test because it flows arround other than a tube
True - but the bearings in these particular wheels were crap as well. 🙏💖🤗
I watched both videos regarding the wheels. I own a set of SLR 0 and SLR 1 wheel sets and they spin absolutely fine. Great hubs and light weight. I’m not sure what happened to your wheel but I feel like you are over hyping how bad these wheels are. You didn’t even take the time to learn the name of the wheel but you take the time to do a very unscientific spin down test. Figure out what’s wrong with your particular wheel before bashing the entire lineup. Not trying to be rude here, just my opinion. Thanks
Hi TishGSXR! I am really NOT trashing the entire line at all and it it came off that way.... that was not my intention. These had already been back to the shop as they came in so out of true and they did lube the bearings and that made it a bit better. However, it is ONLY this set and it is most likely the bearings. I do LOVE how stiff they are for sure though. And when I let my friend James ride it, as we were riding, the feels like riding through sand was his comment. I already knew that. The spin down test is all I could think of to do. I compared these wheels to another riding buddy's Zipps and there was a night and day difference. For me, I like spending money that I do not have to get the best possible product I can. THIS wheelset only, that came on THIS bike does not live up to that. And, if in some of the older comments, you will see others with the SAME wheelset that have the same problem. And with Giant's history and reputation, I expected better. I know every company scrimps here and there and not every top end product is perfect as well. This is just my opinion on THIS wheelset only! I hope I cleared up some of that. Thank you again TishGSXR!
John Knowles a Cyclist Thanks for the reply. I understand your frustration. It is a shame things like this happen for the money we pay. I am surprised considering the hubs are supposed to be DT Swiss, but I’m starting to wonder if Giant uses a cheaper bearing or if it’s just a quality control issue.
@@TishGSXR Stuff happens and I really think it is just this set. I just want to ride this beautiful bike and not fight it. Another opinion I have, and just me, is that until you get the bike dialed in JUST RIGHT, a tweek here, an adjustment here, change this to make it personal to you, it is just a shelf bike. I am working on setting it up just right for me. I do plan on riding it all summer her in California and in Nevada near Lake Tahoe...... and filming it all the way. Thank you again TishGSXR! :)
dude, unless you push 35-45 km/hr you are clueless what a good wheel is as what a fast car at 250-300 km/hr. zipp firecrest 303 404 have such a low angular momentum that they are 2 km hr slower than my Enve SES and DT swiss arc (which is 2.3 km faster than Zipp). yes giants are garbage performers move on with the paradigm shift, and accept his testimony. yep, not all wheels are created equal and you get what you pay for. do you drive a toyota or a hyundai? none are a 911!
The tubeless fluid will be stopping the rotation. Are you running tubeless on the other wheels you tested? If not, that will be the problem.
Hi Marc Newland! It is NOT the fluid - I use the same in my clinchers with tubes. ua-cam.com/video/3u8ep9g8Z_o/v-deo.html And, those wheels are no longer tubeless. It is the hubs. These particular ones are simply cheap crap. I have them back on this bike for now since the new wheels I replaced these with are on my new bike. Again, it is just THESE wheels, not Giant. I love the rest of the bike!
I have a giant propel with the same wheels, but I am running specialised turbo cotton tyres with tubes and don't have the same problem. I also have a set of American Classic hurricane wheels running tubeless on 32s and tried your test, especially the same thing happened as your giant wheels. You can't expect fluid running slowly around a wheel not to have an effect on the rotation, also if you feel that the bearings are creating enough drag to actually slow you down then that energy has to be going somewhere, the real test would be to ride on rollers for 20 minutes with your other wheels, test the temperature of the hub and then do the same with the giant hub. If they really have that much drag there will be a massive difference. Thanks for the reply by the way, most youtubers don't bother 👍
Just watched your vid link on putting sealant into your tubed wheels. I feel you didn't put enough sealant in to make any wait difference. I assume you put the correct 2oz amount in the giant wheels. To me watching both videos just clarifys that it's the fluid, that said I would be really interested in seeing the same test with no tyres on.
@@marcnewland337 Hi Marc! I might have to try it with no tires on there. They are set up with tubes right now, but I may go back to tubeless with the Continental 5000s. And yes, measuring what it shows on the bottle.
Now John, yes some hubs are horrible..but something most people don't do, is adjust the preload on the axle...that can affect the drag on the wheel. But in most cases its all about bearing preload..
Hi Robert Sandoval. I understand, but these are just plain..... it really feels like cheap bearing with REALLY heavy grease to make them roll. They are stiff though.
Hi dear. May be it’s factory defect? Because my SLR0 (rim brake) have very smooth rolling. 🧐
@@kondrashovivan Hi Ivan Kondrashov! It is quite possible and it is a shame that they are like this. I am selling them and I am going to be riding ICAN wheels which I love anyway. Thank you Ivan!
you are fuking right
Thanks - they were the WORST wheels I have ever ridden. Entry level junk! 😁
So what is the cause ??
Maybe you should change the wheel bearings?
It was most likely cheap wheel bearing - the hoops felt pretty cheap as well. I used ICAN wheels and it was a night and day difference. But overall, it was not a great experience and I ended up giving the bike away after less than a year. I wont buy another.
Probably the difference between this wheels you tested is the grease, repacked hub bearings at the same time and same grease then will see.
Hi IksgnobaT! Thank you for the comment I think it is just these hubs, but with a new set of wheels, they should not feel like this. Another thing I just noticed the other day is that they are again going out of true which tells me the spoke length is incorrect. I have have been doing this a really long time. THIS wheels set is simply crap.
Can I ask why not take the wheels to where the bike was purchased as giant has good service reps and I’m sure they can replace them and then your selling a perfectly brand new set
Hi Action Jackson! I already did..... when they went out of true a month into riding them. That is another thing I forgot to mention in the video. That is where they saved money. maybe I just got a bad set, but I would have changed them anyway. :)
John
Still available?
Hi Damian Loya! I still have the wheels and the bike so yes - going to sell it as stock. 😁
U can swap the hubs between ICAN and SLR1 to see the reason.
I actually gave that bike away with the original wheels.
The Giants are dt swiss hubs,rebranded. So, dt swiss should perform the same way. I think 360's or 370's with pawls in rear.
Hi Erik Knudsen! Giant is re-branding for sure. The wheel set that came on this bike must just have some bad bearing which happens. These also were quite out of true. I have since purchased new wheels and I have to say there is a night and day difference. Thank you for the information!
I just did the same test on the SLR One stock wheel, non-disc with rim brakes from 2018 TCR ADVANCED SL 2, tubeless with sealant. It behaved pretty much the same as your test. I got the TCR to replace my stolen super fast fully ultegra Surly Pacer with decent shimano wheels and schwalbe pro ones, I cannot beat PR's I made on the surly with the new TCR. I thought it was the Gavia Race 0 tires that were slow, never thought it would be the hubs, yikes!
Hi jjsmitty7. I have to tell you that I still have those wheels, now with tubes. Those Giant wheels are simply.... junk. The Gatorskins roll better. I have my ICAN AERO 40s that I bought to replace those stock wheels. They are now on my A9 frame, but last weekend I put the AERO 40s on the TCR as a comparison - studio.ua-cam.com/users/video_qGfYzOK8vw/edit
The AERO 40s are set up tubelss and it is an imediate, night and day difference. Those stock wheels are also junk...... but I will keep them for now so that if I have someone that wants to ride it, it has wheels. I WISH I could demonstrate to everyone that thinks those Giant wheels are great, just how bad they are. I guess all my years of riding and experience mean nothing.... Again, thank you for the input.
@@JonnyPink65 Do you know if the SLR One bearings can be replaced with something better? My rims are true. Today I put on a 28c GP5000 TL on the rear. Adequate clearance on the TCR. It Inflated with a track pump which was a pleasant surprise. From my ride today I could tell the contis are faster than the stock Gavia tires.
@@Revit7 I am sure they can be replaced. They should be rebranded DT Swiss hubs. One thing I just noticed about you first post - Shimano wheels...... ! I had some old RS20s I think it was and those were probably some of the BEST rolling wheels I have ever had. They were HEAVY and spun up slow, but when they were moving.... WOW. I will just tell you now, IMO - not matter what anyone tells you. You will not get that performance from these wheels.
True! I agree 😉
Thanks Sleep Healing!! They were terrible for sure. 😁
Hi John, First off, love your vids, great stuff. Thanks for posting this demonstration. I agree there is something not right on those Giant wheels. I'm about to purchase a TCR with those same wheels and now definitely concerned. But my question is, those Giant wheels have pretty decent hubs and should have good bearings, so based on your experience, what do you think is causing the poor rolling quality? And is it something you can repair/remedy?
PS One more thing, the Giant TCR I'm going to purchase has tubeless, any comments on running tubeless???
Hi e 511 keV
! First, let me say THANK YOU to you! I appreciate it more than a simple thank you can convey! :)
Well, as far as these wheels, I think it is something in THESE bearings. I have taken them apart, and it is about the same. They came in out of true so it is probably just these wheels. I have new wheels - ua-cam.com/video/oZQGt2nuGX8/v-deo.html - and there is a night and day difference in the performance. It was not a scientific comparison, but it is an accurate representation as to what I was going through with these wheels. This is a fantastic, stiff bike and handles really well both climbing AND going down hill. Not ultimately the geometry I prefer, but still a fantastic bike. Get it, ride it, enjoy it and have fun. Again, I am pretty sure it is just this set - I was unlucky! Again, thank you!!!! ;)
Not sure but maybe the brake disk is making the wheel roll less.
Hi Stanley G. No, that is why I did the same test with the wheels off the bike. It is either the bearings, bad hubs, or really heavy grease on cheap hubs!
Better balanced wheel surely then?
Hi John Keighley
! No, these, on these are the ONLY ones I am referring to, just do not roll! Disappointing for the first set of Giant wheels that I personally own. The ICAN wheels I replaced them with are a night and day difference.
i think is the hub bearing .Maybe u can try change the hub bearing to ceramic type .
Hi Han安帝
! Yes, I would guess it is the bearings as well. I am happy with my ICAN wheels that I can swap over, but I still ride them and think of it as resistance training. At some point I will change the bearings to ceramic, but for now...... I have my other wheels. 😁
I've had Mavics, Richie, Shimano and now I have the giants SLR 1 wheelset and none of those other wheels rolled freely or while riding the bike as well as my giant SLR wheels do, there is definitely something wrong with your tests because they are great wheels
Hi Nicholas Fouche
! Yeah, these just have a bad set of bearings, but the hoops still feel like cheap plastic to me. They are the worst wheels that I would compare to the stock Fuji wheels that come on the SST I bought when my shiftier on my Cervelo when out and I could not wait the week without a bike until the new one came in. THIS wheel-set... is cheap crap. It is my opinion and I stand by it. I ride these wheels on my trainer and as resistance trainers when getting ready to travel. The older set the rim brakes that my friend James has on his Propel are AWESOME. Ah well..... Giant had to save money somewhere on their re-branded hubs. I got the bad ones. 😁
I've the same set of SLR One wheels on my 2019 Giant Propel Advanced 1 disc and they run perfect. I conducted the same test with mine and they move up and down for minutes, I had no issues with them going out of true so perhaps you were unfortunate with the set you got...ps I love my bike and wheels.
Hi
Ciarán McArdle! Not a scientific test but accurate with THESE wheels. And, I do think I just have a bad set. Even after still riding them and all this time, they just dont have the spin the ICANs do. They are better but not much. I call it, resistance training! Gonna have to do it again with the the wheels - no tires or tubes....
@@JonnyPink65 Hi John, if you got poor quality/defective wheels on a new Giant bike then Giant really should have replaced them for you as they would have been under warranty. I would not let it go, when you pay good money for goods you should expect to get the best. Regards Ciarán
@@ciaranmcardle6175 They replaced the fork that came in chipped. I would not get them to replace wheels that feel slow or under-performing...... as an opinion based on my experience. Who am I?? - no one special. I will ride them for resistance training and ride my ICAN AERO 40s when I want or need superior performance! 😁
This test without pressure on the wheels would be more valid if you use the exact same type and amount of bearing grease, or ceramic speed oil for ceramic bearings.
It would have for sure. That was a long time ago and those wheels were so bad, I gave them away with the bike! It could have just been those wheels and those bearings, but either way..... they were terrible 🤗❤🙏
I think you should better lick your wheel to choose the better one. This is fluid in the tire which stop the wheel ;)
Hi karting kart! As I said in one of my other replies, I use the same orange sealant in all my wheels. This is a video where I let a friend of mine ride the bike to give me his opinions. ua-cam.com/video/oFyq7kq2gZY/v-deo.html These wheels are simply cheap crap. They have already been back to the shop that is a Giant dealer. Once was for this problem - they "fixed" it as best they can, and once was because they went so far out of true it was silly. I will find another way to show.... these do not roll and are at best, entry level wheels! A high end wheel from any manufacturer will roll with no resistance for a while. These simply .... stop. Thank you karting kart. :)
@@JonnyPink65 Hello,
I think you check only the bearing quality with your test and the imbalance of the wheel. A good wheels should be stiff + light + aerodynamique + have good bearing.
I think the "feeling" is not a good way to make a choice. I give you 2 links to compare wheels in a more scientifical way.
ua-cam.com/video/VHsLMCTkFso/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/lC4OoBp_teg/v-deo.html
I buy exactly the same bike as you, As soon as I receive it I give you my opinion ;)
@John, you need to measure / test the wheel's performance under load...just like bearing testings (as oppose to spinning them just with their own weight). e.g. The same bearing performs differently with different amount of load. A bearing may spin well unloaded, but perform poorly under load (or vice-versa). Wheels are the same (as they're an extension of the bearing(s) in a coupled system). The chart you get when testing under different load level is the overall characteristic of the wheel (for the spin motion. Aerodynamic is another aspect of the wheel, of course).
Hi Chatbox VPN! Yeah, but I could not think of a way to really get the "lack of roll" across so this is how I presented it.I can tell you that I put those wheels back on the bike for today's ride www.strava.com/activities/2359505794 as the new ones I bought to replace these are at the shop going on the new bike being built for me. These wheels - and this is all I am referring to - are still a night and day difference. I will ride these only until I get another set. I was out on Wednesday climbing Gibraltar in Santa Barbara and took my Cervelo because I knew the drag these wheels have would not work up that climb. www.strava.com/activities/2352527956 Love this bike but NOT this particular wheel-set. Ah well...... Thank you Chatbox VPN!
Comparing caliper vs disc.
They both have advantages and disadvantages. Discs rub and that is why Chris Froom was against them for as long as he could hold out - very annoying. They do stop quicker. Rim breaks easy to adjust on the fly if need but take longer to stop. 🙏🤗💖
Checking the bearings by spinning an unloaded wheel is absolutely MEANINGLESS. A wheel that does not spin very long unloaded will behave very differently when under load. That's what counts. I don't care if my wheel spins for 5 minutes or 5 seconds in the repair stand. I care how it perform on the road. A bearing that is absolutely dry will spin much more freely when not under load than a bearing that has be fully greased. Yet try those bearings when under load and you will see the difference. The bearings with grease will spin much more freely and smoothly. For someone who worked in a bike shop you did not learn very much.
To check the condition of a bearing, you spin it and look for smoothness and no noise. Not how long it spins
Hi rap122462! I do understand that...... I also understand that as all of us cyclists, we like the way a piece of equipment "feels" as well. These wheels feel very entry level and the performance has not improved with the "break in" as some have suggested, or the load bearing as you suggest.. The hoops feel almost plastic, the wheels are heavy and slow. I will stand by my opinion based on what I have ridden over the years. EVERY bike company saves money somewhere and this in my opinion, is where Giant has saved money. It could be just these bearings, but again as you know, the hoops and spokes play a part in the performance of the wheels as well. i would never say this is scientific test, but it does show what I think of these wheels. Slow entry level training wheels. I thank you for the comment though!
same opinion with you. thumb up
Maybe there is a lot of grease or sticky grease on the bearings?
Hi Roberto Robles! Quite possibly. I think it is just THIS wheelset. I have had people say it is the tires, the sealant, the..... Truth is, I have sealant in all my wheels, I let afriend of mine ride it and he came to the same conclusion. ua-cam.com/video/oFyq7kq2gZY/v-deo.html What I failed to mention is that these have already been back to the shop ( a Giant delaer) for this very problem, and because they went so far out of true, it could be felt while riding. I think I just got a bad set and it happens. It also gives me an excuse to but a new set of ICAN wheels that I love so much. I call it a win win..... :)
@@JonnyPink65 im hoping to see a video of them soon! Take care!
@@JonnyPink65 "I think I just got a bad set and it happens"...Yes I do think that is the case.
Maybe it’s the bearings in the Giants. Those Cervélo bikes are sharp
Hi Chris Chupp! Well, I think it is combination of things. The bearing in the hubs and the weight of the hoops. I DO still ride them on this bike but they are noticibly heaver than the ICANs I replaced them with and that are now on my TRIAERO A9. I look at it now as resistance training!!! 😁
Are the bearings checked? Tightened too much? I have never seen a so poor rolling performance. The hubs are DT Swiss and should do better.
I sold that whole bike a long time ago. The hubs would have been fine but I think the bearings were jest crap. That bike performed so much better with another set of wheels. 🤗❤
Take the bike to a shop, compare three disk wheels then you'll get an accurate test.
Hi Andrew Baillie! No, I bought another set - night and day difference from the get go. It had to have been the bearings or grease. What came on there is a REALLY BAD set. And, I did compare them to some Zipps a friend of mine rides. These particular wheels have problems.
not a good test.....it tells me the wheel is more balanced than the others. with a perfectly balance wheel there should be no turn. in fact if you increase the valve weight you would get the same turning behavior as other less perfectly balanced wheels. Redo your test with the valves replaced by a known weight and no tires.
Hi massive yellow
! Not true - both have valves and the tubeless vales are heavier. In any event it you have been riding for a while, you know the difference between performance and entry level.... and these are/were entry level at best. Switching those wheels made a WORLD of difference. Bearings, spokes and hoops make a bigger difference that the valves which is why some wheels are used for racing that are described a jumping to speed..... those did not even require much braking even with the calipers adjusted. AND.... another thing that told me they were cheap and poorly make - they kept going out of true - entry level CRAP! I no longer have that bike - I gave it away for a variety of reasons.
Hi! I have the same wheelset (rim brakes, to be accurate), I made the same test, I had the same result. Still, there are people out there saying this test is meaningless because it doesn't represent the behavior of the wheel in the real world (the road). I don't know...
Also, can all this poor rolling be caused by bad bearing? Bad grease? Grease become old? Have you tried anything to improve this? As far as I know hubs are made by DT Swiss!
Cheers!
Hi marcob32
! Well, they are correct in some respects - the test is meaningless with out a load. All I can tell you is that from my experience over the years, cheap bearings, heavy grease.... make a wheel roll slowly. Go into a chain store that sells cheap bikes (Walmart here) and spin the wheels on one of the bikes. You will see about the same performance as the Giant wheels - they have to save money somewhere correct? Other big brand name bikes mix components etc on lower priced bikes. When I put my other wheels on there that just roll with no resistance, there is a HUGE difference in performance. My friend James has the rim brake model and they seem OK. Mine..... still feel about the same and I consider it resistance training LOL. Yes, you can replace the bearings..... but the hoops the fell plasticey and cheap to me also play into it. Again, just my opinion. 😁 Thank you marcob32
@@JonnyPink65 hi John! Few weeks after our messages I replaced the bearings with good ones. I had great expectations about that, but still no joy. But few days ago I removed the tire from the wheel, to change it, and of course the latex liquid went away. Then I tried once again to perform your test and... Surprise! The wheel itself spins very well! In my opinion it's the liquid, the amount of liquid latex who acts as an hydraulic brake (to say so). If so, every tubeless tire should have the same behavior. What about?
Cheers
@@marcob32 Hi marcob32! I used a couple of wheels as tubeless.... and I am not a fan. I will ONLY use tubes now. Just my preference and it seems that you have found yourself one of those reasons as well. 😁💖
i have a few different wheel-sets ant the giant slr0 are my (best/most expensive)wheels i own and the rear wheel is great in my opinion but the front just doesn't roll easy enough ,ive taken back to Giant shop twice and an independent shop (friend) many times and they ve had new sealed bearings of better quality than giants recommended bearings fitted but still not has good has any of my decent wheels even Chinese 38mm wheels ,it appears that the bearings spin free and smooth until put into the wheels and even if taken out spin freely again ,but the giant shop recons im too fussy and there FINE but now the front wheel is a FINE at best wheel not being used ,ps i love giant bikes and am gutted that my beautiful giant propel sl has odd wheels on
Hi drexel spivey! What I am getting is that the SLR Zero is a better wheel than the SLR One that I have. I have a new set of ICAN Aero wheels on the way and with out even riding them, I know they will be a million times better. I have had a change to ride so many different wheels and in my opinion, the ICAN wheels are the best. And yes they are UCI certified. I also plan on comparing them to my friends ZIPPs which will be fun! Thank you drexel!!
i have the same problem on the new tcr 2021 advantc pro disc
Jose - I thought I replied..... I think I had bad bearings, but those wheels were also going out of true. Those hoops felt like more plastic than carbon.... but, Giant has to save money somewhere. I have since sold that bike. Thank you for the input!😁
I’d take the wheels back under warranty rather than slag them off. You got unlucky that is all. DT Swiss hubs are far superior to the generic crap on the icans.
Hi Sam Bagley
! Understand, I am only speaking of THIS wheelset, not ALL Giant wheels. My friend James has a Propel and I love it and do plan on getting a new one later this year myself - heavy, but an amazing ride. You are correct in that I should have taken the wheels in but in reality, I bought this bike because it was inexpensive and gave me a chance to try disc brakes so it was just not worth it to me. And as far as ICAN generic..... well, I was like you and so many once thinking the name on the wheels or product had weight - it does not. For many years, NOVATEC was the LARGEST maker of hubs industry wide whether their name was on it or it was re branded. DT Swiss is in on that now as well. ICAN uses the same DT Swiss hubs, NOVATEC, and their own R01 hubs (your choice) - I have all three on different wheels. Shimano I think, has the BEST rolling hubs I have used but with all hubs, the bearing are key.
Spokes.... I use the Sapim CX-Ray spokes just like the other big name brands - I just pay less. I have a quality wheel that you can feel when you ride. I am still riding the Giant wheels and the change in tires made a difference but they still feel entry level to me. The stickers on there seem cheap and Walmart like. As far as ICAN, I got my first set to try to ride to failure and I am still riding them.
Think about it for a second - if ICAN were a sponsor in the tour, the perception would be different.We all (including me) clamor after the names and products we see the pro teams using. Yes, there is cheap Chinese knock off crap out there but I would put ICAN up against ANY of the other big name wheels in quality, durability and performance - just my opinion based on my experience.
One last thing I would ask you....., look at the country of origin on your bike.... where does it say it was made?
waste of time-this so so unscientific its laughable
Hi John Gibson! I agree - it is not scientific AT ALL. I will tell you it is just THESE wheels - not any other Giant wheels, just these. I could not think of any other way to try to show it. I should show it again now that I have have clinchers on there.
@@JonnyPink65 j.g. could have at least made a suggestion to make it more scientific, like check bearing tension.
@@carlosgaspar8447 Hi carlos gaspar! I really had no way of testing that - don't have those gauges or tools. If anyone is around here, there is a 16% hill behind where I live with a short fast descent on the back. Take the same bike with these wheels and another and you can FEEL the difference. Not at all scientific either but you can feel it. Sometimes as riders as you know, it just comes down to feel and preference. These have an entry level feel and drag to me..... but that would not make for a very good video! 😁
obviously you never studied physics. he demonstrated gyroscopic inertia properties even without math to confuse you... a good wheel had a stronger inertia and good angular momentum e.g. HeD, enves boras etc...
Hello! in the Giant Slr wheelset is still tubless milk which of course significantly affects the rotation! Or was there no milk in the wheelset?
Hi Mario Schwarz! I run the same sealant in ALL my wheels - even those with tubes. Going to be working on another video soon showing that. The sealant should not effect the rotation. The other wheels I show in this video ALL have the orange sealant inside.
The rims are lighter, surely?
The SLRs were heavy and slow....... and, the felt really plastic.
I'm struggling with these wheels. Everything I read says they're amazing, but mine feel like riding into a head wind. No rotor rub, correct tyre pressure and way slower than my old bike with fulcrum racing wheels. Guess I'll sell these and buy a set of fulcrum disk wheels.
Hi Tim French!! You are feeling EXACTLY what mine feel like. I use them as training wheels now due to the increased resistance. You will defiantly feel the improvement with the fulcrum wheels. If I may make one suggestion check out ICAN - icancycling.com/collections/aero-series-wheelset/products/carbon-road-bike-wheels-aero-40-wheelset
I have been riding the for years and find them superior to everything else i have used. Check my chanel - i have so much stuff about them up there. you will notice a big difference at a great price!
ua-cam.com/video/8Cu3fRpemKs/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/tBFNedn-QQE/v-deo.html
It's hovering back and forth because of the sealant inside the tyre
Hi Sheldon Diaz! No, it is a bad SET of wheels! I do use sealant in ALL my wheels. ua-cam.com/video/3u8ep9g8Z_o/v-deo.html I this is really unscientific but is was the best way I could think of to show how bad THIS particular set of Giant wheels are. I made this later as a comparison. ua-cam.com/video/Stc_6dkEK5w/v-deo.html
Don’t want to be ruining the fun but it sure looks like the valves are higher on the other wheels and therefor more heavier than on the Giant wheels, causing more momentum. This “test” doesn’t really prove anything about rolling. If you could conclude anything at all, it’s that the Giant wheel could be more balanced, or the bearings on the Giant wheel could have more friction or the inbalance on the Giant wheel has a lower effect/momentum due to the weight of the disc brake beong added to the total weight of the wheel.
Hi Jerry - no, it proved nothing, it was not scientific and was a bogus test - I know that. Those wheels just felt like riding through sand and when I replaced them, it was a night an day differnce. They were entry level CRAP. The hoops felt more like plastic. If I had said THAT, how many more comments would I have gotten. I have been riding a long time and these were just not what I would have expected from Giant. They went out of true twice before I gave the bike away...
got a propel with - i guess - pr2? and I always thought that's normal. now I know they are crap aswell. +1 reason for a new bike
Hi Michael! In all my years of riding and everything I had the opportunity to ride, those were the WORST wheels I had every ridden. It could have been the bearings, but the wheels kept going out of true as well. That tells me they are poorly made. Ah well - I gave that bike away. That really turned me off to Giant completely. Thank you Michael. 😁🙏
I've been selling skate bearing for decades. Testing a bearing without a load is nonsense. Simply more or thicker lube in a bearing can make it free spin slow but have no effect under load. Some companies under lube their bearings so the Noobies think cheaper ones must be faster. A fairer test is sitting on the bike and rolling all things being equal.
Thank you DBrain! I do agree, but I will say that the bearing in those wheels were bad. In bike wheels, the way the hoops are made, and the spokes (type) also play into it. In all my years of riding, working on bikes etc, these were worse than some of the entry level wheels I have ridden in the past. Thank you DBrain! 🙏💖
Totally irrelevant testing. Two rimbraked Wheels and the slr one with a disc on a side... what did you expect?!?
I recommend retrying it with de disc detached.
Slr one is not the best carbon Wheel, but they are definately bang for bucks. And they roll pretty well, even compared to some of my custom build dt-swiss wheels.
Hi Johan Beerden
! Not scientific at all and I agree that is was not a great test. I should have removed the calipers from the bike completely but I think at that time, I had a dislocated shoulder so working on the bike was not possible. After all this time, I do still ride those wheel on that bike....... and they feel about the same - like riding through sand. When I ride them, I consider it resistance training. And so you are aware, the SLRs have re-branded DT Swiss hubs like they have re branded the Jensen power meter on the newer bikes. 99% of the wheels on the market (yes including ZIPP and ENVY - at least they did when I was in the industry) have either DT Swiss or Novatec hubs - re-branded - the bearings are where the difference is at the center. Hoop manufacture and spokes also play into it. These hoops "feel" cheap almost like a plastic. If I put a set of ceramic bearings n there, they would still be heavy and slow to spin up overall in my opinion. So, after many years of riding and trying more than my share of wheels - I will stand my claim that they are entry level wheels - heavy and slow. I do have another set of disc wheels that just roll and roll and roll. When I ride that bike with the other wheels, that bike screams and comes to life. I know many people like their SLRs, but I am not a fan. Just my opinion and $0 .02. If you have a great set, that is awesome - ride and enjoy them until they need new bearings. I do thank you for the comment! 😁
@@JonnyPink65 hi, not sure if I undestood correctly. The problem is in the bearings? Or the hub or overall design of the wheel?
@@alexgeo I am thinking it was in the bearings - they have to save money somewhere. The hubs are rebranded DT Swiss - most manufacturers use rebranded either DT Swiss or Novatec. How the hoops are made also play into how a wheel spins up or feels. These felt like plastic. I no longer have that bike. 😁
LMAO!
Me too! Giant got my money for some of the crappiest wheels I have EVER ridden. Entry level garbage. 😁
Giant SLR 1 Aero WheelSystem это по вашему Дерьмовые колеса ?
Its not the drag mate. If so its the weight imbalance. Otherwise it`s against the physics :).
Hi Jan Kowalski
! Well, it is THESE wheels. The new ones I replace them with are amazing. Others have had no issues with these particular wheels. I have been doing this for a long time and these particular wheels are about the worst I have ridden. I thought that Fuji entry level wheels were bad, but this wheelset was worse. Again, my new wheels are amazing!! LOL thank you Jan!
@@JonnyPink65 Hi John. What`s hidden behind words "amazing" and "worst"? That would clarify a lot because that what you shown is not a big deal whatsoever.
Cheers
@@JanKowalski-pe9lo Hi Jan - Well, amazing with regards to the new wheels... they just roll as I would expect a high end set of wheels to do. I like a wheels set that I can jump on and kick forward in a sprint. The original wheels did not do that. Entry level - big box - Target, Walmart, Fuji wheels ... all feel like the used glue instead of a light grease. You are working just to get the bike to keep moving while riding down a hill. The original wheels that come on MY Giant were like that. I could take it down some really steep descents here and almost never have to tough the breaks except into a sharp hairpin turn. That is the worst. Many have had a great experience with their stock Giant wheel - my friend James for instance, but not mine. He is the only who said they feel like riding through sand and I ran with it. I just think they feel entry level. :) it is not at all what I expected from Giant. It happens though.
@@JonnyPink65
Sorry man but ive just stopped reading here: "I could take it down some really steep descents here and almost never have to tough the breaks except into a sharp hairpin turn."
You have no idea what you talking about. Bashing one over the other without good arguments its just childish.
Ive gone through dozens of wheels from cheapest as chips to the one from most expensive if not most right now. Thats why i was curious what "they just roll as I would expect a high end set of wheels to do" means. But i doubt i will...
@@JanKowalski-pe9lo No worries. Our opinions differ and that is OK. I do thank you for the comment though!
SLR 0 is a better choice. In taiwan, people will sell their stock slr1 but always keep their slr0 and the review is generally very good for slr0 but for slr1, not so much.
Hi Chris Chang! Thank you for the comment. These came on the bike and I was really hoping they would be better than they are. That is good to know about the 0 vs the 1.On the plus side, it gave me a great excuse to but a set of wheels I really want from a company I have used and that I trust! :)
I have the same rims and they roll much better than yours. Even in comparison to my mavic rims they roll much better even though they are cheaper
Hi Jacob Heß
! That is good to know. My friend James' older ones he has on his Propel are great. It is just these wheels or bearings....... and, I dont really like the hoops. Glad you have a great set - enjoy them!! 😁
So youve basically just shown that the Giant SLRs are the only wheels that are balanced.
No, the bearing on those were complete crap. The wheels were cheap overall. Most get upset when I say that, but they really were garbage. Great bike and frame but garbage wheels. 🤗💖
Giants have disc, I did that test with my slr1 and they spin forever
That is awesome. I think the bearing in the set that came with this bike were just garbage. The ICAN wheels - both sets, that I replaced the SLRs with also spun forever. 🤗
Wow this is really scientific. :) readup preload and precision
Hi Ming T - I missed this so my apologies for the delay in response. I have been riding a long time and have been fortunate is what I have had access to. This is in not way scilentific and is laughable, but I will stand by my assessment that THESE wheels are entry level wheels at best - Tiagra components are what I would expect with wheels of this low quality. Just my opinion. I still ride them in the rain, gravel, and consider it resistance training when climbing. I will keep them so that when I sell this bike, I can sell it with all original components. 😊
Giant road bikes are great bang for Your buck and with the highest carbon technology available today but Their wheels are sub pair!
Thank you Al Duarte! That is EXACTLY what I am politely trying to get across! And, it gives me a good excuse to get another set of wheels from my favorite company!!! Thank you Al!
@@JonnyPink65 To other people you say ot just these set of wheels and now you're makin it look like giant wheels in general are sub-par... makes your replies on others very questionable...
@@raket8177 Hi Randy Ketelaars! I am referring to THESE wheels that came on this bike. I still ride them. My friend James, who rides a Giant Propel can feel the difference between these wheels and his..... and the ICAN wheels that I replaced them with. I am a firm believer that re-branded is not always quality. Yes tires make a difference, tubeless to tube, tire pressure..... but so does the overall quality. It is my opinion that these wheels are even sub par for Giant. I will be getting a Propel next year and will then have another new set to compare to. I WISH I could let people ride the wheels side by side - you would notice the difference on the climb, the flats and the downhill...
I ride them as resistance training wheels! :)
Ok if you are such a wheel expert why on earth did you guys cheap wheels then. I been riding for nearly 40years and have these on my giant propel 0 advanced and they are spot on
Mark, I never claimed to be an expert, just a fortunate individual who has had the opportunity to ride MANY wheels and have built and trued many along the way as well for the shop I worked at years ago. Think of it this way - even cheap bearing will work for a while and some may actually preform really well. Inversely, even top of the line products break or have something go wrong. There is a reason the ceramic bearings work so well (all uniform in the race), and reason why some bearing cost WAY more than others. The same goes for the spokes and the hoops. Since you have been riding for so long, you should know that. These wheels went out of true three time in less than a year (once the shop fixed them, I did it the other two times). It could have been a bad press of the bearing on this particular wheelset or just a bad set of bearing in general that made them feel like they were filled with sand. Poor quality nipples would be my guess as to why the spokes keep going out. Many people have Giants and love the wheels - I did not. These cheap, heavy Fulcrums that come on my Bianchi area AWESEOME - heavy but perform really well. Could not say that about that particular set of wheels on that bike. Prior to that bike, I would only ride DuraAce because I preferred the performance - still do. These wheels to me felt like a bike you would get on at a big box store goofing around with your friends. Heck, even the entry level bikes in any shop are better than what came on that bike. In any event, I gave it away and that completely turned me of to Giant as a whole (even though they do press a good many bikes in the industry in their factory.... IN CHINA! Thank you Mark. 😁
This doesn't say anything. Except the first bearings have less grease in it.
Torsten!! I agree and they came that way. They were the WORST set of wheels I had ever ridden. I no longer have that bike though. 😁
Yyyy you ride Ican wheels why not zipp or enye wheels
Ivan.... I have ridden both! Envy is over priced hype - I have WAY better stuff to do with my money - they did not like me saying that, but it is true in my opinion. Zipps are great but their rim brake wheels do not stop as well as the ICAN with basalt - again my opinion based on my use. And Reynolds..... pure junk. Out of everything I have ridden, the best behind ICAN was Shimano.... they just rolled and rolled. I was extremely fotunate - right place, right time when I was working at a a shop that has recently closed. I had the opportunity to try MANY wheels while there. My S5 came with HED Jets.... not bad, My Mavic (both Carbones and a lower end set both started getting sticky no matter how many times I took them apart and serviced them) and the list goes on - I was fortunate. I got the ICAN over Rollio I think it is to try to break them and prove that Chinese wheels are junk... and I was blown away. Better rolling, better breaking, and WAY cheaper. Again, just my opinion based on my use. And.... ICAN IS UCI certified! Win win.
Wow that is Crazy!!
Like riding through sand....
OMG,..are you kidding? Do you even know preload test? This is false information.
camerican!! Thank you for the comment. Nothing scientific here. But from experience, these were the WORST crap wheels I have ever ridden Before I gave that bike away, I had the wheels trued once at the shop, and then did it two more times myself. As someone who has built wheels, all I can tell you is that the components and hoops are cheap. The bearings on this were someplace they saved money and used a heavy grease to cover it up. Crap! Thank you for the comment though. 😁
OMG !!! does it mean they produce 0.01W more drag ??? you won't win any race with these !! you will be always at least 6ms slower at the finish line !!!
Hi razorree!! These wheels were TERRIBLE. If you have ever hit a patch of sand..... that is what these felt like when riding, or a constantly rubbing brake pad. You dont expect a big brand name to be THAT bad. 😁
I watched most of your video and I'm not convinced due to your lack of Engineering physics Ride On G.
Donavon Bebo!! No worries - I did not like those wheels at all. I have since given that bike away. I will say that those were some of the worst wheels I have ever ridden. Could have just been bad bearings or I just got a bad set, but...... they were garbage. The wheels I put on made a HUGE difference. That was the first Giant I have ever ridden - I got it because it was cheap, and I wanted to try disc and electronic shifting. All I will say it that I will never buy or ride Giant again - it was that bad!!! Thank you Donavon!! 🙏😁
New wheel bearings need breaking in.
Hi charliefarzbarns
! In my experience, that has not been the case. THESE are just low end.... like a Walmart or sears bike.
@@JonnyPink65 you are being too kind again.
These "tests" are so laughable. Not even remotely related to actual riding. People stop taking this as valid information. Sorry your wheels are not rolling well but what you're doing here proves nothing. Also, bearing do not need to be broken in. That is ridiculous.
Hi Jordan! Well, I agree they are laughable but I had not meters or testing equipment to really show it scientifically. I have been riding a really long time and have been fortunate to have ridden some awesome wheels. To me, these feel like cheap, entry level wheels about like what you would get on a bike with Tiagra components. I still ride them and can feel the drag descending and the resistance climbing. My friend James has an older Propel and those wheels are great - have been since the beginning. When I got this, I had him ride it with saying a thing about the wheels - his reply was "feels like I am riding though sand". Still feels that way and so although my tests are laughable - even to me, The good thing is that down hills, I dont have to brake as much - it is built into the bearings. The hoopss also feel like a plastic carbon composite but that is a review for another time. I may get some Zipps or Reynolds (can't stand those either) to show how plasticity these are. I will stand by my assessment that these are cheap entry level wheels at best. Just my opinion! 😉
Unconsciously Uneducated...
Thank you Lucky 7! I guess my years of wheel building taught me nothing. 😁
@@JonnyPink65 I am sure you can build wheels fine and am probably a good bloke. But, you are rubbishing a product based on a poorly thought out testing process because you lack a basic understanding of physics. Further, you are unconscious of the fact that you lack this basic understanding. HAPPY CYCLING :)
@@Lucky-uk1bv I am sure you a great "bloke" and I never had that in doubt. These PARTICUALR wheels, not all Giant wheels, were poorly made and I may have just been unlucky but I have had many comments both agreeing and disagreeing. I could have changed the bearing and that would have helped quite a bit. They felt like cheap, heavy grease paste had been used to save money. The hoops and spokes go hand in hand in how a wheel spins up, or jumps off the line in a sprint. These just felt like they slept the whole time and wanted more to sit and rest. At first, I had the shop true them when they went out - quite quickly which indicated to me either cheap spokes or poor tension. When it started to go out again, I did it myself..... and again the 3rd time - again cheap spokes. Most people are just going to be happy with it and will not notice I usually use Sapim CX-Ray spokes and these are not those. So again, you may have some fantastic wheels from Giant, but since this was my experience, I will NOT spend money with a big box brand name that makes all their frames in Taiwan and rebrands just about everything. I LOVE Chinese frames and wheels - I just think these that I got were extremely sub par.
All he’s proved is out of balance wheels.
Thanks Neil. I could not think of a great way to show what crap those Giant wheels were. All well, I gave it away anyway. Those were the WORST wheels I have ever ridden. They went of to true a couple of times in he rest of that year that I owned that bike. And yes I really did give it away. It was CRAP. 😁
@@JonnyPink65 strange because I’ve got the same wheels and never had any problems.
@@neilcowie2329 Neil, my friend James has an older Giant, and his are great. It was just these wheels I think - I got a bad set and it completely turned me off all together.
Try decrease
Hi Billy Tscherne
. A decrease in what? I have had them regressed, and have changed tires. I think I just have a bad set. I rode them today 6-15-2019...... these wheels are simply ..... terrible.
Sometime we get what we pay for. Giants are garbage from a serious cycling angle. It is like taking a Hyundai elantra at a track and wondering how come not as good as an M5. not all wheels are created equal. tangibly even within the top tier a delta. Zipp 303 404 being 2 km hrs slower on my race bike vs ENVE SES 4.5 and 2.2 or so slower than DT Swiss arc. reason. low angular momentum and poor gyroscopic inertia... basically they waver S like or into wind like a wing foil. Good wheels do not, anchored like a V on the ground, and keep rolling in a straighter line. yes all my wheel builds had similar spokes and hubs except ENVEs being internal nipples but same spoke type...
Thank you Belisarius! Thank you for making sense. I have never been a fan of Zipps over all, and I just think for a rider that does not know better, these wheels would be OK. But they are not.... and you have said it better than I ever could have! Thank you. 🙏💖😁
I'll bet the hubs where not greased correctly try repacking the bearings could be that simple . God knows nothing is perfect....
Hi Billy Tscherne5! They were by the shop as that was a concern I had as well. Same. So, today 6/15/2019) I was out with tubes and Gatorskins. The bike climbs really well but it is THESE hubs. People are upset that I do not like them and think I am referring to ALL Giant wheels. Nope, just this set. Where you can really feel the drag the most is going down hill. I did get some PRs today - www.strava.com/activities/2452775296 - going up I was racing a guy who was pushing me a little and would pass me when I slowed to film, then I would pass him. LOL going down, I was drafting a line of cars. When I pulled out of the slip stream, I would slow even in a tuck. No worries - I have other wheels!! Thank you Billy. :)
tyre and sealant .
I have aset of these and no probs great wheels take the stupid hat off mate and use that brain
I hated them and gave that entire bike away. Those wheels, NOT all Giant wheels, were junk. The bearings were crap and the hoops felt like plastic. ...... all cheap crap. 😁
take the plastic off of the monitor bezel. come on.
Hi JLP Design. I really have to laugh at that and say thanks for commenting on that..... It is an old habit I keep. It started years ago when I had nothing and when I would buy something, it would be closer to the end of the month. I would do that so that if I had to return it to make rent. it would like like it was not used. I still do it once in a while - sometimes out of habit, sometimes I dont notice I am doing it, and other times.... I may not like it and just want to return it. LOL - thank you for noticing. I forgot that it was on there. I am thinking about new monitors and I promise that if I like them, I will remove the plastic!! It has now been removed!! Thank you again - you have just made my day! :)
This is such a pointless and meaningless test that it's laughable. The problem is that when someone is ignorant, they don't know it.
Thank you johnparker3! I guess my year of riding and wheel building taught me nothing. I have another new bike with stock, heavy Fulcrum wheels and the same rebranded hubs. They are AWESOME! That set I had, came with bad bearing and poor spoke installation or poor hoop molding. It kept going out of true. It was pure CRAP! 😁
💩💩💩💩💩💩
such a load of shit...useless information..I use giant slr wheels for years ..Best wheels I've had
Thanks for the input. Maybe I got a bad set of bearing or you have just been lucky. Either way, it left a me with a bad feeling towards Giant and I gave it away. Heavy bike, junk wheels.
@@JonnyPink65 ok...sorry but I'm talking rim brake..not disc..I guess you are talking about disc which I think is a big problem anyway not just giant..I tried disc and sold it again..back to rim adv sl in both propel and tcr and my god can they move..rim all the way with giant wheels on both
@@sosss505 I like rim too - easy to adjust on the fly, no problem!!! 🤗
I dont like and GIANT wheels, garbage as the are I am sure they are meant to keep the price down and give them the ability to compete
Thank you Keith Moore!! You get why I don't like them and you said it better than I did. I also do not like their tires. I think those are garbage as well.... but that is another story.