Armet vs Close Helmet: What's the Difference?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 16 чер 2024
- These two styles of helmets are visually very similar, but in modern scholarship there is a mechanical difference that can be used to distinguish between the two for academic discussion.
Facebook - / knyghterrant
Support - / knyghterrant
Instagram - / knyghterrant
Website - knyghterrant.com
#medievalarmor #livinghistory #armet #closehelmet #knyghterrant
I’m planning on making the Elite Knight Armor from Dark Souls, and this video’s in-depth breakdown of each piece of the close helmet is invaluable in trying to make the helm as accurate as possible.
I’m actually equally impressed how the game devs got the in-game model so accurate to a real life helmet style. Most devs would just make up something they felt was right or looked good, which is totally fine. But you can tell that Fromsoft definitely did their research when coming up with each and every armor set. Which is pretty impressive considering that, given the setting of their games, they could have made them as unrealistic as they wanted.
Thanks I'm glad the video was useful! Yes, Fromsoft is one of the better devs when it comes to understanding how real armor is supposed to work.
"Hinged armet" and "pivoted armet". Got it.
That sounds like a sounder typology to me, as it replicates period vocabulary (and thus mindset), with the epithet referring to the technology used as a detail/precision (which isn't that important, since they are functionally practically indiscernable).
Yep, I think that's a way better way to refer to it.
Split mandible armet and continuous mandible armet could be more to the point. Hinged vs pivoted isn’t as obvious about what it being hinged/pivoted.
Hinged split mandible armet and pivoted continuous mandible armet could be even more descriptive, but that’s getting a bit long in my opinion.
Those 5 mins are worth gold.
I was sent here by Skallagrim. Nice video mate. :3
Lone Wolf thanks for checking out the channel!
Same here mate.
Same
Finaly i know what kind of helmet is the Dark souls' chosen undead's helmet.
You are the only other person that has spoken of this issue. I've been looking for years for this type of helmet from Dark Souls.
Yep, so do I
I've got to say good sir, YOU ARE THE MAN. I've never, ever seen any of the "big names" come close to your attention to detail, accuracy and frankly, beard. :) Please don't stop anytime soon good sir!
the 4 dislikes are people with bread helmets
Thank you so much! I was trying too draw a set of armor but the helmet was bugging me endlessly because there would be no way my character could take it on and off they head with the way I was designing. That clarified exactly what I needed!
Great channel. I watch whenever I can. You are doing a great job.
always love seeing a video from you pop up in my subs!
always wondered the difference from pictures! Great videos, really well researched!
This was a big help, thank you. Very clear and to the point :)
This cleared up a long-standing confusion of mine! Thank you so much!
Solid video m8, clear to the point and very educational thanks and subbed :)
Great video, sir. The close helm and armet are two of my favorite helmets after the sallet and it makes me happy that you finally made a video on them. Keep up the good work and keep the videos coming.
I learned something new which is good. Excellent presentation. Thank you.
Hello! Just discovered this channel, great job. I subbed!
Great video, very informative.
Very good narrative and explanation. Thank's for the video.
My pleasure!
Very informative. Thanks
Concise, clear, and useful.
Very good animations, easy to understand.
Hey Ian, your videos are really great quality, well read and great, clear diagrams, but I especially wanted to say thanks for going to the effort of putting in manual captions, they make a huge difference with hearing problems, your channel is super high quality!
Thank you for the kind words! Don't thank me for the captions, thank my generous viewers! Some people were kind enough to contribute captions on several of the videos!
Nice video as always! The contents in this chanel are inspiring, really.
As a student of armor (even if not in the European field) I can feel the modern academic trend to find terms and new names to highlight small differences, which didn't bother that much people who actually used these kind of gears.
I like having proper names to use, but they are useless if the majority of the people do not really understand in my opinion
Lovely video! Clear and concise, although in this case I think it wouldn't have hurt to spend a moment on the 'why' behind the differentiation. You hint that both helmets have grown from different origins into a near-identical form, but perhaps it could help or would be better to include a brief evolution towards both helmets, or at least mention what origins both had.
Well done!
+Lars Huijs thanks! I plan to save that information for a more detailed video on the close helmet specifically, and perhaps a video dedicated to later style armets.
Knyght Errant That sounds awesome! Can't wait to see it.
Knyght Errant Yay!
thanks a lot. that is INCREDIBLY interesting
close helmets are my absolute favorite. i would love to see more videos on them in the future.
"Would the 15th century Northern Italian, 🇮🇹 close helmet ⛑ Milanese plate 🍽 armor and chain mail 🔗 worn by the Spanish, 🇪🇸 conquistadors protect their heads, from the primitive stone 🪨 age weapons such as the clay balls ⚽ made of stone 🪨 and obsidian rock 🪨 thrown from a string made sling used by the primitive stone 🪨 age Aztec jaguar 🐆 and eagle 🦅 warriors of Mexico?" 🇲🇽
Can you talk about scale armors? I can't find any much info on scale armors but they seem to be used before chain armors.
mazaisvilijs It's nowhere near as simple as that. Maille is actually a quite old invention (early iron age) and has probably been around as long as scale armours.
Also keep in mind, that while scale armour was used historically in antiquity (particularly by the Persians), there is little evidence for its use in Western Europe in the Middle Ages.
Persians, Sassanid Empire (their successors), Byzantine Empire. That's where scale armor was used a lot, especially by a formation called Cataphracts - used by all of those cultures.
In most other regions and ages it was mail/plate in the west and lamellar (sometimes with mail and plate elements too) in the east.
The only periods when scale armor was used more widely in Europe were:
- Roman Empire (lorica squamata, usually light armor made from brass, not much protection but looks nice and is very light, so centurions would wear it).
- Charlemagne's reign (copying the roman style, we have no survivng artifacts though, only depictions - so it's likely that they used Avar lamellar and maille more, and were depicted in scale because it looks nice)
- Late 17th Century Polish hussars, who believed they were direct descendants of ancient sarmatians and wanted to wear armor that would look the part - it was called karacena. It offered much, MUCH worse protection than their earlier half-plate armor, but again, they worn it cause it looked nice.
I think that's enough references to start googling, but as far as Ian's field of expertise goes (I guess from 11th to 16th Century western Europe), scale armour is pretty much non-existent.
mazaisvilijs look up Lammaner armour
Matt Easton has a video about scale armor over on the schola gladiatora channel. He says that scale armor was much rarer than mail, because mail armor was basically better in every way. More protective (scale armor is vulnerable to rising cuts and stabs that come in from below), just as easy to make, and more flexible. So once mail was invented it quickly replaced scale armor. He also suggests that scale armor is depicted in historical art much more than it was actually used basically because it "looked cool", and was likely easier to represent in artwork.
Scale armor is not the same as lamellar armor. But I am not sure that what Matt Easton said is true. First scales were often sewn or riveted on more than one sides. Second the base material often was mail itself.
Scale armor was used along mail for more than a thousand years Chinese, Persians, Romans, Byzantines used scale armor. Some Roman source mention that scale armor was more expensive and valued more than mail because it gave better protection against bludgeoning attacks. But was heavier and more expensive. It seems to me that the rise of the lammelar and plate armor that pushed scale armor into extinction rather than the mail.
Thanks, great video. The Close Helmet is my favorite style.
I always thought they looked awesome 😁🙏✌️
This video was badly needed on the internet!
Bril! Thank you so much!
Have you ever considered doing a video on the burgonet. I think it's a very underappreciated helmet and would personally appreciate it.
The helmet @ 1'46" on the right is amazing !
Do you think that you could do a video on horse armour and/or medieval saddles?
A little bit off topic, but as an humble request, would you cover horse armor someday?
The details and quality of your video is astonishing and the topic is not really covered among "historical youtubers", so I would like to learn from you about the protective gears used by horses.
Have a nice day, Luca
I am enlightened and I thank thee.
Do you plan to make a video/guide on how/where to buy historically accurate armor and things you need to know beforehand? (I know you have briefly talked about this in other videos). I would love to buy a proper high quality set of armor but unfortunately I have no idea where to start.
Awesome, very informative! Can you talk about the Maximilian Helmet (and armor)?
"Would the 16th century renaissance German 🇩🇪 Maximilian helmet ⛑ plate 🍽 armor and chainmail ⛓ protect the Spanish,🇪🇸 conquistadors wearing it, from the primitive stone 🪨 age clay balls ⚽ made of stone 🪨 and obsidian rock 🪨 being thrown from a string made sling used by the primitive stone 🪨 age Aztec jaguar 🐆 and eagle 🦅 warriors of Mexico?" 🇲🇽
Hey Ian! I was wondering of we could discuss the anatomy of the burgonet, and define it as well as its uses? Thanks!
Wow, what timing. I was just looking for an answer to this online.
Good timing indeed! :)
Hey, Ian! Huge thanks for this video! Armets and Close Helmets are some of my absolute favorite helmet designs, in fact I've got one on my wishlist which I'll hopefully be able to pick up in the coming months. I've always been confused by the difference between the two helmet styles seeing as they often look so familiar.
I do have a question, though: Sometimes with these helmets the bevor plate is a separate piece entirely, secured onto the head with straps rather than a hinge. In this case, would the helmet be classified as an Armet or a Close Helm? Thanks!
The piece you're describing is a 'wrapper plate' and it's worn in addition to the cheek places of an armet. It goes _over_ the whole thing, not in place of. In this video of Jeff Wasson, you can see exactly what I'm talking about, he is putting on his armet and then he will secure the wrapper over that (ua-cam.com/video/2HwRqJwXXcQ/v-deo.htmlm29s)
Ahhh, cheers, I always thought that was a separate kind of befor plate that replaced the cheek guards. Makes sense to have double-layered protection there, though, thanks!
This video explains much, thank you.
Does anyone know of any historical examples of frog mouth helms being used in battles? In articles and videos they are said to be, "mostly", or, "predominantly", used for tournaments, and I was curious to know if there were exceptions, or indeed variations of that helmet that were used.
I expect that some people just use those vague terms so that they don't get called up on it, but it certainly provides pause for thought.
The knight set from elden is so historically accurate but also isn't too plain looking. It has a closed helm without breathing holes, plate armor with a blue gambeson underneath that sports a golden design along the fringes. The armor and helmet also have simple ornate engravings on them. Its my favorite set in elden ring!
Do you think you could discuss the history and use of splint armour? I've been having trouble finding good information on the subject.
I really like you so clearly differentiate between modern terminology and the likely historical terminology!
Years ago i had a conversation with an English HEMA reenactor who was depicted a late medieval soldier with a to handed sword. he insisted on calling it a Zwei-händer... Simply bacuse thats the modern terminology taken from German manuals :P
A lot of people don't even realize that even the 'old timey' sounding terms we use today are often post-medieval.
Hi from Skalls channel, you got a new sub.
Hi, thanks for checking out the channel, and welcome!
Thanks for this amazing video! Im trying to make a set of medieval armor from cardboard and i was wondering this exact same thing. So close helmet is it
Having served in the army, we wouldn't always have the straps of our helmets secured. Part of the reason why was comfort, so my guess is that the same mentality existed back when they had armets, close helms etc. where you don't want to be wearing your helmet closed all the time, so that's probably why the closing cheek pieces were thought up since it would allow your helmet to stay on while at the same time being able to simply open it up and allow more air in and give your face some space as opposed to the visor-only option.
nice one again
WOW they all look amazing :O
could you do a series on armor decoration, history, meaning, technology, etc?
+Justin Dewey armor decoration is definitely on the list of topics I want to cover
OMG the beauty of these helmets...
What a glorious beard ! Much Jealous ! Subscribed !
Sweet beard dude
Really good stuff, man. The armet/close-helm is probably my favorite style of knightly headgear, specifically with the visor/ventail.
I think if you were going to write a medieval-inspired fantasy story, then calling them both 'armet' is acceptable, perhaps with a small explanation as to how it opens being an option (if you're a nerd). If you're going to write a historical paper, or talk shop with other armor-enthusiasts, then you should differentiate. It's good to know the difference, either way.
Thanks! I agree with your example applications. I think sometimes we get too hung up on terminology now-a-days. It can artificially limit the way we think about things, especially for objects that don't fit neatly into our modern categories and we sometimes even use terminology in non-constructive pedantic ways that don't help anyone. I think this particular terminology is useful in two general modern applications. The first is that It offers a certain level of precision in discussions where the differentiation in construction is important while preventing you from having to constantly backtrack and explain the difference or use more cumbersome terms. The other is when trying to understand the developmental paths of these helmets, since while they had a sort of aesthetic convergence, the paths they took to get there were different enough to warrant separation in my opinion.
and now I know for sure that my helm is a late 16th century closed helm! It looks almost exactly the same as the one you used in your example. Now I just want to know if it's italian or english...
Let us have a vote as to who prefers which style of cranial protection: The Close helmet, or the Armet. (Personally, I rather prefer the close helmet-specifically the German style-as I find the sides opening to be like a medieval iron man helmet (which, if you think about it, IS FRIGGIN' AWESOME!)
I'm by far more partial to the close-helmet design than any other helmet. I like late medieval / early renaissance 16th century plate armor, & side swords, etc.
a few shows and movies come to mind that I have seen that have what looks like a bevorless close helm or a brimless visited burgonet,
2001s "the profession of arms" and 2006s "the new world" being the ones I remember specifically.
did such helmets exist or is it just Hollywood bungling props?
No more armor videos? Research progresses, please keep us updated :)
Hey, you're now a lieutenant general Knyght, congratulations.
Hi Ian. I really enjoy your content. Thank you! Do you have a reference for the Armet on the left at 1:20? I love its design and am considering a modern reproduction.
Met 29.158.52, Flemish c.1505 - www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/22775
@@KnyghtErrant thank you
My thank good sir knight I was looking for some time to getting this difference between them finally sorted out, btw. in both cases can they wear a Wrapper?
Ah, at last, a new video.
are there armets/ close helmets that only have ventail and no visor, so that the eyesight is located between that ventail and the helmet itself? i would like to know if the lothric knight's armor can be reproduced with historical armor pieces from the same country and the same century
Close helm seems better, more favorable to have on solid plate than a 2 overlapping plates with hinges, especially when you get hit in the mouth with a warhammer.
Huh I didn't even know such closely fitted helmets that opened existed.
What was the reason for it i wonder. Was it made to prevent helmet from being taken off by enemy?
I’m new to the whole armor scene, and these styles of helmets are probably my favorite of any that I’ve seen. I’m planning on purchasing some, thank you for the quick video!!
Nice video editing, wish you would have compared/contrasted the difference in history of the two if there were differences, such as one originated in italy, the other france, or something.
Thanks. The armet does have a full video dedicated to its history (ua-cam.com/video/3piLpRl4QLc/v-deo.html) if you want to know more. The super condensed version is that the armet began development at the tail end of the 14th century in Italy. The close helmet, even though the styling ended up being similar to armets, grew out of experimentation with sallet designs in the very late 15th century. One of the earliest predecessors of the true close helmet is the 'close sallet' developed by Lorenz Helmschmied for Emperor Maximilian I. So the close helmet got its start a century later than the armet, and developed out of the sallet, rather than the bascinet, even though they ended up looking very similar in the 1500s.
Thank you!
Do you have any close helmet so you can do a review like with the armet?
What's the difference between a armet and a burgonet? As far as I can tell the bevor on the burgonet is a separate piece and it looks kinda like a sallet with cheek plates, but is that it?
Hey man. I have loved your works for so long. I wanted to get your view on a certain theory I have as it might give me a better understanding :).
I believe in modern times we try to standardise weapons, armours and equipment's as this is how modern armies fight. I believe its quite wrong (not all of the time) to think that in the past, arms and armour was like this. People with money on the battlefield wanted to be seen and known. From the coat of arms to the armour they wore. I believe in modern times we like standardising armours from the time as it makes it much easier for us but I would like to know really on what your opinion is on the matter? Due to your knowledge, it would be nice to hear what your understanding is of expensive armours around the late 14th to 15th century.
PS: Love the stuff and hope to hear from you soon. Keep doing awesome stuff and none of what I said should be taken as definite. I am eager to learn!
Yes, as modern people we often make the mistake of trying to look at the past through the context of our modern aesthetic instead of making an effort to understand the historical context. This, in my opinion, alters the way we think about the objects and events of the past in a way that hampers our understanding. You can't make the past fit the present. :)
Thank you for responding! It means a lot and its good to see your opinion on this. I must admit I do agree with your response. The industrial revolution has really changed a lot on how humans live so understanding the past can be sometimes hard in our perspectives. Though its probably one of the many reasons why I love history as it gives a larger perspective onto so many things. :)
Knyght Errant, Could you recommend to me where to buy functional armor? I have seen many stores that sell them, but I'm not so sure I want to trust their words if I am to be hit in the head or what have you. I know , or at least it seems, that most of your things are custom made so any recommendations would also be nice. Thanks.
Are there any reasons to prefer the armet over the close helmet or vice versa?
Oh this is lovely
What are the pros and cons of these two constructions?
It was really, really informative for me. Before this video i didn't understood why i don't see hinges on that armet's cheeks, how he opens. Thank you, m'lord, may the Lord watch over you
I was just wondering if a hooded sweatshirt (hoodie) can be used in lew of a gambason?as it kinda kills two birds with one stone(body and head padding).Strickly for costuming and not hema or sca.
If you mean as a replacement for an arming doublet, the difficulty would be that you can't attach anything to a hoodie. Normally things like your arm harness are pointed (tied) to the arming doublet. It's also not very fitted to the individual, so there would be a lot of unnecessary bulk under the armor that would make it uncomfortable to wear and probably overly hot and immobile.
+Knyght Errant I have a question about armour. Do you wear quilted legs under your leg armour? I mean under your body/ arms you have your arming doublet and chainmail. But what do you wear under your leg armour? Only hosen wouldn't be that capable of absorbing blunt forces. I ask because I've never seen someone wearing quilted armour under the leg armour of a full plate set. Hope you respond. Thanks!
No, quilted textile on the leg is unnecessary if the leg armor is very closely fit. Even the upper body is very lightly padded in some places, and virtually unpadded in others. Closely fitted plate does an excellent job of dissipating force over the surface area of the armor itself. By the later 15th century, the arming doublet need not be padded at all. Modern jousters who do historical solid lance / steel coronel jousting are taking incredible impacts with with unpadded arming doublets, relying only on their plate harness to keep them safe.
Knyght Errant thank you very much for that answer. Yeah in the end it makes sense. I remember as I were a child put my hand down on a flat surface. If you then beat lightly on your flat hand you really can feel how the table eg absorbs the most energy of the impact.
Knyght Errant So how are the joints protected? Just by mail and a thin layer of cloth underneath?
+Seriduk Paul in general, joints that can't be directly protected by plate are protected by mail. On English effigies we see evidence for small voiders of mail behind the knee and at the instep of the ankle.
I think the reason I'm not great at drawing full plate armor with these types of helmets because 1: I need more practice drawing them, 2: Most reference pictures I find only have the helmets in 1 angle, and 3: Most armor I do see is propped up on a mannequin in a museum and I can't get a good idea of how it would have looked on an actual person, and few videos show how flexible certain parts were. One of the few videos that did show it somewhat is a soundless black and white video.
Hey Knight Errant, do you also know a lot about Central and Eastern European armors, mostly one that originated in the region and maybe never came to to west, or are you more specifically Western armors.
I've got a question regarding the materials used in replicas. What type of steel would be most historically accurate in a modern replica and also would a replica made out of mild steel be usable? Or would it be just a wall hanger. On many sites, like Kult of Athena or Armae the helmets and armour is proper thickness eg. 14 gauge but it's often made out of mild steel. Would it be any good?
Historical steels varied greatly in quality and in carbon content. They used everything from pure iron, on up to medium and even high carbon steels (high carbon steel isn't actually good form armor, it usually ends up too hard and brittle for use as armor). There are even layered steels or iron / steel combinations. Modern mild steel is perfectly adequate for reproduction armor as long as it's thick enough in the right places, like the helmet. It will deform under abuse more easily then more expensive options like heat treated medium carbon steels, but it can be used for sure. Mild steel is probably the most commonly used modern steel for armor because it's less expensive and easier to work. I prefer medium carbon steels like 1050, 4130 and other similar alloys that can be hardened and tempered. Mild steel armor tends to be heavier only because you need to use thicker materials for the equivalent protection of thinner harder heat treated medium carbon steels.
Do a review of "A Knight's Tale" Movie's armour!
YES!
any movie/fantasy armour really. could become a whole series of videos.
this
I'm not an expert, but, from what I could tell, a significant amount of it was historical (with some exceptions), but it was also heavily anachronistic. A lot of it looked like pieces dating from early 15th century to late 16th century, in a film taking place in the 1370s.
What was the advantage of having a visor and ventail on a close helmet compared to them being conjoint?
You can raise the visor while only exposing a very small portion of your face.
so on the closed helm can the lower portion of the visor be raised above the upper portion of the visor or in order to move the lowerpotion above the pave hole you would have to move the top portion as well?
The lower portion cannot slide past the upper pieces. If you try to raise the lower portion it will raise all of them.
Thank you!!! Thats what I had figured. With that said, would you say that the helmet of the elite knight from dark souls is a functional/realistic depiction of a closed helm? I do a lot of sketching and I really admire it's design but I want to know if its believable or not.
if the stylistic choices aren't even consistent within the armet and close helmet styles, how does making a distinction between the two help? I find myself thinking these helmets are more similar than different after watching this video. just my thoughts, keep up the good work.
As a student of armor, the distinction between the mechanical (rather than stylistic) differences can be useful, especially when talking about the functional aspects of the armor.
About that... Armets were always worn with add-on bevor in jousts but closed helmets were often worn without. So does this mean the original wearers would have been aware of the potential weak point the armet's split chin presented?
does anybody know where I can buy helmets like these . not for display but for actual use ?
4:16 oh look, it's my favourite helmet :D Although I like the other visor it has better.
lancer D do you know the name of that helmet ?
At 01:20 - Where can I find more about this armet? Never seen one quite like that.
www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/22775
@@KnyghtErrant - Dope. Thanks!
Im here from skallagrim , I love this helmet
That like to dislike ratio is amazing
Well, he deserves it.
Cool!
boy glad i subbed to this channel.. been calling the armet and close helmet as type of Maximilian helmet... i feel soo stupid
Maximilian style armor just refers to an aesthetic style. There are both armets and close helmets in the Maximilian style.
hi ian! love your channel! very informative! and thanks for the info! been using your vids to settle some debates among my friends. You are the go to guy in my opinion when it comes to the topic of historical discussion about armor here in youtube. Since most youtubers focus more on weapons. Keep up the great quality content!
Hey Ian, quick non armor question. Is that a Razer Blade? What are your experiences using it as a content creator? Thanks :)
+Juan Murillo yes it is, the first generation 14" I usually use my desktop for video editing although the blade can do it, but not nearly as well. , The blade is a little underpowered and overpriced for what you get. It can't game quite as the well as the marketing language would have you believe, but it's ok. I do love that it's a slim notebook, and I'm not an apple fan at all, but i probably wouldn't buy the blade again.
Thanks for the info :) Love your videos!
What's the difference between a closed helm & a closed sallet? is it just how the pivot is layered?
The overall shape of the helmet, but the lines blur since the close helmet is a development _of_ the close sallet.
So I'm guessing that close helmets developed from sallet-bevor hybrids, correct?
So it would seem.
So this is what the elite knight helmet from dark souls is based off of... I love design when it leads to things that tie in with reality.
What is the most protective helmet I'm the middle ages
Did both helmets appear at the same time? Or did one of them appear/disappear before the other?
The close helmet was developed around the turn of the 15th/16th century. The armet was developed almost 100 years earlier, but it looked a little different stylistically through the 15th century. By the second decade of the 16th century though, with both helmets in use, that's when they really started to look like each other.
Thanks! I forgot that early armets looked like bascinets :P
Which of the 2 is your preference?
And could a "Helmets: The Close Helmet" video as you already have one on the Armet?
Close-helm, all the way!
+Ser Garlan Tyrell I would very much like to cover the close helmet in more detail. I'd prefer to wait until I can get a hold of a good reproduction but if I can't I will eventually make the video without the show and tell portion I usually do.