In my opinion, there's another type of player. "The Audience Member" - This player is there to hangout with their friends, be amused by the action, and laugh at the funny moments. This player won't act like the other three types and generally only takes initiative when prompted. It's simply not why they are there. They just want to hangout. Don't expect them to take initiative in combat, problem solving, or acting - it's not because you're encounter's aren't engaging enough - it's just not why they are there.
Great point! I have always found those kinds of players, inattentive at best & usually don't last long in the campaign, mostly because they were not paying attention & die.
There are actually ways in which you can engage audience members (which we call 'socialites', but it's the same thing I believe). They join a game to have a fun shared experience - that shared part is important. Give audience member PCs relationships with other PCs, make them have to cooperate and negotiate a lot, or give them abilities that work well in tandem with other PC's. Socialites often make good support characters like buffers or flankers, because they like feeling valued by more active players, rather than being the one 'winning'. Of course, there are also total wallflowers, who are simply not interested in the game and would rather do something else, but I don't think you can really count those as a player type.
In Jungian fashion, I''ll add "The Anti-player". The guy who will exaggerate the effect of fog-of-war not to help his buddies in combat, strictly enforce "player knowledge" vs "character knowledge" to insure all the wrong decisions are taken, and make off-color remarks during every social encounter because invariably he put charisma as his lowest score.
@@MogofWar "That Guy" covers a wide array of archetypes, including the Tyrannical GM, the Impotant GM, the Deviant, and the Contrarian. The Anti-Player is just one of Many "That Guys."
I guess im asking randomly but does any of you know a method to get back into an instagram account..? I somehow forgot my login password. I would appreciate any tricks you can give me
@Madden Karter Thanks so much for your reply. I found the site thru google and im in the hacking process atm. Takes quite some time so I will get back to you later with my results.
Giving the popularity of other D&D themed channels, I'm surprised you've only pulled 10K views on this. This information is good, and it's rather well presented. This channel has escaped me for years, and I'm happy to have found it now, as opposed to never! UA-cam needs to throw your stuff up into the suggested feed more often.
Thanks, for the encouragement, Wudenbachs. One reason this has only pulled 10K views is because of the crappy thumbnail that not even I can read. Seriously. It's awful and it's all my fault. The reason you're getting my stuff now is because I keep uploading weekly content and I regularly get 10k per new video. This drives the algorithm and sends the video into more people's "suggested video" pile. Also, I have improved my thumbnails. Thanks for watching, commenting, and being so kind!
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 In the same boat, having only "found" your videos within the last couple of weeks. Now systematically taking notes to streamline the Steampunk game (Yes writing up a rules light Steampunk RPG of my own.)which I have been hoping to get going for over a year.Probably I have been in 2-3 actual D&D sessions EVER. My RPG experiences were in Traveller back in the early 80's. The suggestions you have made regarding story arc, this one regarding "Player Types" , and the one that eliminates initiative seem especially valuable. I've hit the LIKE button on ALL your vids just to help with the algorithm. Yeah... I join the FB Group as well. See you there.
I used black Angus and it worked very well! Nobody seen the twist coming. In my game Rhianne the daughter of a wealthy merchant who was in an arranged marriage to the mayor of Brimhaven a mining town in exchange for an exclusive contract to trade the newly discovered black powder had travelled the Great Canyon trading route her whole life which was the territory of the black arrow gang. She fell in love with Black Angus and when the arranged marriage was planned they had to do something. Thank you for the content it was a brilliant idea which I worked into my campaign and it was a very memorable game.
I like the example scenario here, great idea. Having been a DM for our group, I don't know how much I agree with the three player types. Maybe that works at other tables. There are some players who just want to watch the DM's world burn.
"There are some players who just want to watch the DM's world burn." These are bad players. Eject them immediantly. They are not in the game to play with everyone else, they are only there to cause problems.
i try to make each player style their time and rotate around the grp takes practice to entertain them all you need to learn this skill, hard but you learn but ya cant keep all active every second. give each time. make each a star. thank you Professor DM
It's good to consider the archetypes and the story arc. Very nice guidance for someone getting his kids into the game after 35 years away (no lasers!).
I would add to these three "The Explorer:One who wants to see the world and have as many varied experiences as possible", "The Achiever: The one who wants to WIN! Overcome every challenge. Not so much problem solving as just winning, winning combat, winning social encounters by having the best reactions possible, winning levels and treasures."
We have to Explorers in our group Me, and another Guy. He's more of an explorer than me, so I constantly have to keep him from "Pressing the big red button" I get htat he just wan'ts to know what it does, but seriously! Soemtimes it makes it hard for me to get to explore and learn things that I think are interesting, as I have to baby sit him, or he might get himself, or the party killed. Not that he isn't useful, it just sucks constanly getting religated to party dad, because all of the other players are their own special brand of crazy...
Great analysis, I really appreciate the advice on how to interact with these players. They definitely fit some of my friends. I would go as far as to add three more player types that are difficult to recognize, but fairly common: The Casual, the Cinematic, and the Seductive. The Casual, as mentioned by other commenters, is there to spend time with their friends, and they don't care that much for the specific game. They're usually just as happy to cancel the RPG for board games or a nerdy movie, they rarely pay close attention to the plot or rules, and they frequently miss sessions when something comes up. I've tried very hard in the past to find their interests and give them a spotlight, a side-quest, or some other reason to get more involved, but I always end up disappointed. In my experience, the best response is to just not expect them to be very interested; if they're showing up, they're having fun. The Cinematic is similar to the hack-n-slasher in that they love grandiose combats and action, whether the plot makes sense or not. The difference is they usually make characters based on media they like rather than optimized for strategy, and while they love winning they also prefer larger-than-life action scenes with specific outcomes. It often feels like this player is always asking for more, because their expectations based on movies, manga, or TV is difficult to meet with a given RPG. My best advice is to let them describe the action sometimes, and if there's an inspiration you both share don't be afraid to blatantly reference it in your adventure. If you're comfortable with it, help them customize a character that fits within your game, even if you have to change a few rules. The Seductive may be a subset of the Thespian, but it's that player who is not afraid to include sexuality in their roleplaying. They're often stereotyped in the community as "that bard who will bang any NPC," but my most notable encounters with this included a paladin and a sorcerer. These players are not necessarily creepy, although if they push the comfort zones of people at your table you should not be afraid to set some boundaries. My advice is to define ahead of time what your own boundaries are, and be very careful when roleplaying NPC interactions with these players--even if you have a large comfort zone, theirs inevitably turns out to be bigger. Honestly, roleplaying with these players can sometimes be very fun, just make sure you control the pace and tone, not them.
Man I know this is an older video and the usual comments I leave are just praise /fluff and nothing to add to the topic, but man thanks for the effort and quality of your videos, I needed this video, just didn't realize until I watched it
With your permission sir, I would love to use your scenario. You have rekindled my love of D&D with your well thought out videos & after almost two years of debating, I am now going to start working on a new campaign.
"..then you have the people who just want to take out their daily frustrations on a bunch of orcs." I had to laugh at this statement; it's so true, and especially because I, as a DM, was really frustrated at one time (ok, many a time), and sent a mass of orcs just so that I could watch the party obliterate them. Amidst the gore, mayhem, and carnage, I felt my frustrations melt away. Who knew TTRPG combat could be so therapeutic. :)
I'm primarily a "thespian', but I'm really a "co-author". I'm doing the same thing as a player that I do as a DM: trying to facilitate a coherent, gripping story for everyone. I'm not into accents, only somewhat into epic dialogue moments, but what I'm really into is making other players feel that my characters are as real as possible. If I can die at the right time, or bring out a temporarily mission-delaying but story-enhancing character flaw at the right time, that's my whole jam. The crux is: I'm a meter-pegging extrovert. I could never be an author, because sitting in a quiet space with my own thoughts, trying to turn them into pages, would drive me batshit crazy. But what I can do really well, is make cool narratives collaboratively in real time.
I am about 80% problem solver but the other 20% is thespian. Making the game semi-theatrical can be fun and elevates the drama of things like social/diplomatic encounters and even those moment before a boss fight.
People speak about 4th type being the "companion" or "audience member". I dare say there's fifth: DM's girlfriend/wife. Not that much interested in the game itself, but she loves to listen to her boyfriend/husband. Whenever he starts framing a scene or acting as an NPC, a dreamy, flickering smile blossoms on her lips. :D
In my opinion, another opportunity would be for for the thespian to disguise his/her self as a Black Arrow Bandit, initiating a false sense of camaraderie while the other players sneak out of the hideout with the merchant's daughter.
Ah yes, categorisation! M'brain likes a good bit o' that! I guess this makes me some weird blend of problem solver and thespian, though that fourth "Audience Member" category mentioned by a one Alex Johnson is definitely in there as well. Hack and slash isn't really my flavour, but I love finding out the objective and quietly contributing towards it, since, in the back of my head, that makes it easier for the DM to handle and helps them play more comfortably as well. Engaging with NPCs is a fun and direct way of funneling worldbuilding and other information to the players, too, as well as just the fun factor of a likable NPC encounter regardless of impact, so there's some thespian in there... but the second-biggest portion probably goes to Audience Member, since I'm not really there to be the star or anything, I just like to contribute in some way or another. Still working out how to do that without dipping into metagaming territory and still figuring out the tableside etiquette *et al*, though, so spotlight moments are a bit uncomfy. Characters who are battlefield tacticians with good Intelligence and some Wisdom skills are probably going to be fun for problem solving, as well as clerics who can heal and support the party without having to themselves be the centre of attention, and giving them interesting personalities is nice for role-playing and bouncing off NPCs and PCs alike ♪ plus you can to beef up the other party members' chances of succeeding in whatever type of gameplay they fancy, with Guidance or literal guidance *a la* understanding the direction to go in
I love all of your advice, but I'm totally overwhelmed by your usage of terrain and detailed dungeon items down to barrels, beds, and tables. I love using some minis for PCs, battle maps with dry-erase markers, and that's it. Possibly with a few Lego prices as objects or obstacles.
D&D, AD&D specifically is built for giving wargamers an up close experience, and to make the games tense and fun to play, he added roleplaying to add motivation to adventure, and endear the players to the characters they play. D&D as a result attracted "amateur thespians" for the roleplay, "adrenaline junkies" for the thrills of dice based combat, story tellers for the ability to enthrall others in an adventure in a magical world, as well as puzzle lovers and war gamers for the tactical scenarios. Because of this being a DM is super difficult
dungeon craft well with me strongly preferring Wizard or Cleric characters (and failing that rogues), I think the problem solver fits those classes better, and how I like to role play. Of course shooting some nice chain Lightnings into a crowd of hobgoblins to insta kill them is always fun too lol. All this of course is for when I’ve rarely had the chance to be a player in the past, as I’ve mostly been the DM.
How do we add twists to adventures without making the problem solver feel cheated or deceived? What if the merchant's daughter allowed herself to be kidnapped by the bandits because she secretly fell in love with Black Angus? Or the merchant himself is a part of some evil cult which Black Angus is trying to stop? Or the bandits are also part druid defending their woods from the encroachment of greedy merchants? Thanks for the great video, Professor!
An issue I have with the more modern iterations of D&D is that they allows player to approach the social/RP elements of the game tactically and mechanically. I've had too many hack-and-slash players throw points at social skills and try to never relinquish the table. Meet some monsters: throw dice at them. Take one prisoner: throw dice at them. See the baron for a reward: throw dice at them. And so on... It isn't an impossible problem to get around, but it does get tiresome sometimes. And, on that rare occasion when I get to be a player, it is even worse.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 There are some situations where I am ok with a roll and a bare description. Maybe the table isn't loose and RP isn't going to happen, or the night is winding down and moving forward is critical. My preference is to look at the character's stats and consider their appearance, status, etc. and, provided I get a good description or RP just to let it work. That's how I run most of the action in my games. I watched another of your videos and you mention just letting a high level thief infiltrate a guarded room and stealing some documents, while you'd have a lower level thief roll to see if they're ALMOST caught. That is the space were I want most of my game to exist. If I can get the table in a state of near constant engagement, with everyone participating in the way that they prefer, then I am doing my job. Maybe Flow is a good term. Any sort of action can happen in Flow, and I try to minimize the number of player rolls. Maybe one or two every 15-20 minutes, just to create tension and provide opportunities for interruptions to the expectations of the players. Meanwhile I make quite a number of rolls behind the screen. Some are subterfuge, some are genuine, but I try to maximize player engagement. The players operate under the impression that BIG THINGS might have happened had my roll gone a different way. It is the performance aspect of DM'ing that I am best at, contrasted with voices and the like. I create tension based on the hidden information that I have access to. I think Charisma can flourish in that sort of environment. But, I still allow for the drama provided by players rolling dice. So, a sequence of events might culminate in a Charisma check. But, I think that the enjoyment and engagement that lead to the roll makes it memorable in a way that, say, the awkward grind of RAW high level combat is not. I try to engage every skill that a player chooses, but I also make sure to lean on dump stats. I am very upfront about that during character creation. I try to stress that player creation shouldn't be seen as collecting a bunch of mechanics.
!!!! I believe I just coined a new term for fantasy RPGs: the father says, "Maybe my daughter was held in a pillary or the stocks. I think she has stock-hold syndrome." 😃😃
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 actually, I got a kick out of the coincidence that your source (XDM) for the video was the same book that I recently got. I thought that was cool. After saying that I've enjoyed your videos.
you forgot the socialite. they are there to hang out with people. they love because it gives them time to be with friends and love down to talk to the players.
Yeah this really reminds me of my current table... i want more mystery and roleplay, and to improve my stories, now a player says maybe i prepare too much... idk personally but i just started improving and linking the ideas and scenarios ive had around the areas together... Ideas: in this area there are... WereWolves Bandits A lack of silver for the werewolves A Hag and in just one session, i improved them all, the bandits were hired to steal the silver, and also to use a vile liquid in small jars to turn people into werewolves, and they were all hired by the Hag... so... the kinda... scenario and area boss i had for this area is... in charge of all of dis... and i never really ran a game linking multiple things together like that and idk i think itd still be good but now its... well its all linked... each scenario was originally different.
Another question I have: How do you maintain the challenge and tension with players playing combat as war instead of combat as sport? For example, what if the players decide to just set the hideout on fire, forcing the bandits to flee while they snatch the merchant's daughter from under them? Thanks again, Professor!
I’m thinking buying copious amounts of dynamite to blow up the bandits hideout might be one of those other solutions you were talking about. Then the thespian can be like “🎵bang bang into the room🎵”
I'm generally wanting to interact, complete objectives, AND kill stuff... So I'm honestly not sure which of the 3 I best fit. It often depends on which character I play.
I have seen that there are players that like to create outrageous or game-breaking situations. Maybe the player is a rebel, or maybe the player has a chronic need for silliness, or maybe they are super-creative and have put that creativity to trying to break or alter the world- maybe they really want to be a DM rather than a player. Maybe they are just a scientist, and trying to suss out the limits of spells or magic items. They aren’t thespians, or hack and slashers- maybe they are most related to the problem solvers. But the problem they are tying to solve isn’t anything about the “stated” game mission. They are much more interested in sandbox play, I think.
Ah yes, including from the afore-mentioned "Spectator/Audience" player, we have our classic 4 humours/temperaments by Alcmaeon. I prefer the business variation, the DiSC Profile.
Oof I'm a hack and slasher. Who Knew? I like problem solving too. Hmmmm I love acting too, but I don't worry about my character arc. Though I am trying to get my chain of Dwarven Beer Taverns ( The Dwarves Friend) up and running oh and my shatter proof glass business and my LIDAR spell.
I have the problem at my table, that i have almost only audience members. Those kind of playerse are nice to have, but if they come in such high numbers, that it feels sometimes like playing a 2 person session or even worse: talking to a wall.
Don't be afraid to use silence as a prompt (we Dms are often the talkative type). I have had that problem but noticed if I try to stay out of the spotlight and allow awkward silence to linger players come out if their shells at times.
Good tips here except I guess my table is different from the norm because 1 combat per hour of play would = 1 combat and nothing else each hour. I think the idea that each combat can be built with the other two players in mind is genius though and I plan on stealing this shamelessly.
could be a small combat or need of skills like someone is running off with a kidnapped child/baby and the players need to catch up to the cart, to catch the kidnapper... or something... skill challenges can be fun as well
I keep wonder Angus and his new bride and they all shove off. I know some of my players would rather stick it to a pre arranged marriage then return the daughter. Doesn't change the 3 types though.
I honestly think that the hack and slasher probably dominates the player population in 2021. Followed by the problem solver and the thespian. I'm just going by players I have seen though. I could be wrong. I don't know of any surveys that have been done to gauge this.
The father only will pay if she is returned unharmed? Sure, I already imagine how my players are going solve this. Kill the backstabbing bi... I mean the "backstabbing lady" get the dowry and send her head to her father. Achieving revenge and compensation. And if compensation is not possible, they always prefer revenge above all else. What a lovely bunch of murderhobos I have xD
I would say I'm the problem solver but solve problems by creating new ones. Like let's say there's a rat infestation and an orc tribe this poor town man. Me: HEY let's kill a bunch of rats... Make a stew out of them as a peace offering to the orcs so they go away? Paladin: Ok one: Bioterrorism on all the orcs even the children is not bueno. Secondly: That doesn't solve either problems. Now the orcs just are sick and might still come back and spread the sickness. Me: Or...get down with the sickness. Paladin: ... Me: oh WAH AH AH AH AH Paladin: Can I smite him? Me: Its better than any idea you've come up with. Paladin: All your ideas are terrible. Remember when you wanted to torture an old lady for information?! Me: She was hiding something. That old lady could've been a serial killer you don't know. Paladin: Or that time you and the monk were both being selfish dicks sneaking down stairs in the tavern to steal something and woke us all up because he kept trying to go up stairs to kick you unconscious and you just kept...pushing him down the stairs? Me: That's called self defense. This paladin does not believe in my second amendment right. Am I being detained?!
I'm mainly a problem solver, too much or little of either of the other two, and I may get bored. ... Depending on the character I'm playing, and the situation, I may be more inclined to prefer either combat or diplomacy.
I suggest you write a survey explaining the models and have the player rank them buy level of their personal preference. That way you can map out where to expend your creative efforts to be the most efficient.
Professor Dungeon Master, I felt cheated by Extreme Dungeon Mastering. I understand that they made an attempt at humor, but I paid for a product and got a bait and switch. There are fantastic pieces of advice and ideas that are invaluable, but a big chunk of the book is fluff. I don't feel like it's a matter of taste. It went from GM advice to dumb humor that really had no practical use. It isn't my intention to complain on your channel, but I don't recommend that book.
I get what you're saying. I'm going to review it on an upcoming episode and I will point out the humor, which will not be to everyone's taste. However, the sections on percentages and the d20 and the GM section are priceless. I'm actually going to focus on the XDM system, which is brilliant and completely changed how I view/run games.
Hack-n-Slashers aka murder hobos! The thespian can be some of the most annoying players, as the GM I don't want to role-play purchasing quality shoes at the cobblers, ugghhh... I prefer GMing, I am easily bored as a player.
thespians....ugh. i dont mind roleplaying in the sense of interactions and responses, but once they start doing voices with lame accents and getting involved in hours long discussion with npcs it starts getting on my nerves. get to the action and exploration please!
my player won't take less than a 10 ability score meaning neither bonus or penalty but pressures rolls of 15 or higher. with 19 or 20 in the near future. +2 longsword, +2 battle axe. ect. just overpowered. I only have one player, and live in a small town. at home, with mom, who won't let me seek out new players. kinda limits me on options. people can't be trusted these days and my mom is in poor health too. at 84 and on oxygen, a collapsed lung which may or may not be functioning. if I lose her, then I would move to my sister's house. no job. disability. very limited income for miniatures. little space. I am thinking of setting strict limits on magic spells to only practical spells like create food and water, magic missile, tashas uncontrollable hideous laughter, ghost image, lighting bolt, identify, ect. no power word spells or ethereal type spells and teleportation. they can cast any spell unlimited number of times if they know the spell, but maybe not casting chain lighting in a flooded dungeon. it would kill the monsters true enough, and the characters would be badly hurt since electricity would travel through the water to them. fireball would be bad too since dungeons can have built up levels of flammable gases. boom. blow the characters and the dungeon to kingdom come. a fire bolt my fry some dude's cloak, distracting him while a ranger hits him with an arrow. double whammy. I like a little magic but some is good, too much. not so good. I like your idea of capping hit points at third level. I get tired of subtracting 5 hp then 3 then 7 from a 93 hp creature. takes time. I like battles with 78 skeletons, 45 zombies, 19 ghouls and maybe a couple others thrown in. no time for subtracting a few hp. I need instant takedowns.
How do we add twists to adventures without making the problem solver feel cheated or deceived? What if the merchant's daughter allowed herself to be kidnapped by the bandits because she secretly fell in love with Black Angus? Or the merchant himself is a part of some evil cult which Black Angus is trying to stop? Or the bandits are part druid, while the merchants make their living selling timber from the local woods? Thanks for the great video, Professor!
In my opinion, there's another type of player. "The Audience Member" - This player is there to hangout with their friends, be amused by the action, and laugh at the funny moments. This player won't act like the other three types and generally only takes initiative when prompted. It's simply not why they are there. They just want to hangout. Don't expect them to take initiative in combat, problem solving, or acting - it's not because you're encounter's aren't engaging enough - it's just not why they are there.
You are correct. I should have included the audience member and may in a future video.
I just left the same comment essentially 🤣😂
If that is the case then planning for them is irrelevant? As long as the other 3 types are entertained then so should they.
Great point! I have always found those kinds of players, inattentive at best & usually don't last long in the campaign, mostly because they were not paying attention & die.
There are actually ways in which you can engage audience members (which we call 'socialites', but it's the same thing I believe). They join a game to have a fun shared experience - that shared part is important.
Give audience member PCs relationships with other PCs, make them have to cooperate and negotiate a lot, or give them abilities that work well in tandem with other PC's. Socialites often make good support characters like buffers or flankers, because they like feeling valued by more active players, rather than being the one 'winning'.
Of course, there are also total wallflowers, who are simply not interested in the game and would rather do something else, but I don't think you can really count those as a player type.
Try to watch some of these older videos every 6 months or so as a “refresher course” god bless PDM
Thank you Casey. That's kind of you to say,
There’s one more type of player. “The Audience Member” he’s just happy to be there.
Mcdm fan detected
This is me I just like to chill and roll dice
That bandit encounter is genius.
In Jungian fashion, I''ll add "The Anti-player". The guy who will exaggerate the effect of fog-of-war not to help his buddies in combat, strictly enforce "player knowledge" vs "character knowledge" to insure all the wrong decisions are taken, and make off-color remarks during every social encounter because invariably he put charisma as his lowest score.
"Antiplayer" is very diplomatic. I call that player "the douchebag who won't be invited to the next session." +1xp for mentioning Carl Jung.
I think the colloquial term is "that guy."
@@MogofWar "That Guy" covers a wide array of archetypes, including the Tyrannical GM, the Impotant GM, the Deviant, and the Contrarian. The Anti-Player is just one of Many "That Guys."
@@patrickbuckley7259 a subclass, if you will.
Great video. I loved the encounter idea!
I guess im asking randomly but does any of you know a method to get back into an instagram account..?
I somehow forgot my login password. I would appreciate any tricks you can give me
@Keaton Luis Instablaster =)
@Madden Karter Thanks so much for your reply. I found the site thru google and im in the hacking process atm.
Takes quite some time so I will get back to you later with my results.
@Madden Karter It did the trick and I actually got access to my account again. I'm so happy!
Thank you so much you really help me out !
@Keaton Luis no problem :D
Giving the popularity of other D&D themed channels, I'm surprised you've only pulled 10K views on this. This information is good, and it's rather well presented.
This channel has escaped me for years, and I'm happy to have found it now, as opposed to never!
UA-cam needs to throw your stuff up into the suggested feed more often.
Thanks, for the encouragement, Wudenbachs. One reason this has only pulled 10K views is because of the crappy thumbnail that not even I can read. Seriously. It's awful and it's all my fault. The reason you're getting my stuff now is because I keep uploading weekly content and I regularly get 10k per new video. This drives the algorithm and sends the video into more people's "suggested video" pile. Also, I have improved my thumbnails. Thanks for watching, commenting, and being so kind!
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 In the same boat, having only "found" your videos within the last couple of weeks. Now systematically taking notes to streamline the Steampunk game (Yes writing up a rules light Steampunk RPG of my own.)which I have been hoping to get going for over a year.Probably I have been in 2-3 actual D&D sessions EVER. My RPG experiences were in Traveller back in the early 80's. The suggestions you have made regarding story arc, this one regarding "Player Types" , and the one that eliminates initiative seem especially valuable. I've hit the LIKE button on ALL your vids just to help with the algorithm. Yeah... I join the FB Group as well. See you there.
I used black Angus and it worked very well! Nobody seen the twist coming.
In my game Rhianne the daughter of a wealthy merchant who was in an arranged marriage to the mayor of Brimhaven a mining town in exchange for an exclusive contract to trade the newly discovered black powder had travelled the Great Canyon trading route her whole life which was the territory of the black arrow gang. She fell in love with Black Angus and when the arranged marriage was planned they had to do something.
Thank you for the content it was a brilliant idea which I worked into my campaign and it was a very memorable game.
I think there's a 4th type... the companion, players who will follow along with the other 3 but not really drive the game,
True. Usually another player's girlfriend (mine is pretty much in that category lol)
Me
Audience member, they'll watch and participate but never lead or want the spotlight
It's how I play my healers lol
I like the example scenario here, great idea.
Having been a DM for our group, I don't know how much I agree with the three player types. Maybe that works at other tables. There are some players who just want to watch the DM's world burn.
"There are some players who just want to watch the DM's world burn."
These are bad players. Eject them immediantly. They are not in the game to play with everyone else, they are only there to cause problems.
i try to make each player style their time and rotate around the grp takes practice to entertain them all you need to learn this skill, hard but you learn but ya cant keep all active every second. give each time. make each a star. thank you Professor DM
I think this is most usefull "types of players" I've seen so far.
It's good to consider the archetypes and the story arc. Very nice guidance for someone getting his kids into the game after 35 years away (no lasers!).
Glad to be of help! Thanks for taking the time to comment.
I would add to these three "The Explorer:One who wants to see the world and have as many varied experiences as possible", "The Achiever: The one who wants to WIN! Overcome every challenge. Not so much problem solving as just winning, winning combat, winning social encounters by having the best reactions possible, winning levels and treasures."
We have to Explorers in our group Me, and another Guy. He's more of an explorer than me, so I constantly have to keep him from "Pressing the big red button" I get htat he just wan'ts to know what it does, but seriously! Soemtimes it makes it hard for me to get to explore and learn things that I think are interesting, as I have to baby sit him, or he might get himself, or the party killed.
Not that he isn't useful, it just sucks constanly getting religated to party dad, because all of the other players are their own special brand of crazy...
Yes, definitely all 3. The full experience is what I crave!!!
Nice. I like the way you used multiple tie-ins to provide something for all of the player types. Cool scenery, too.
Thanks Robert!
This is an underrated video. Retitle to : HOW TO KEEP ALL YOUR PLAYER'S ENTERTAINED or some thing similar.
Great analysis, I really appreciate the advice on how to interact with these players. They definitely fit some of my friends. I would go as far as to add three more player types that are difficult to recognize, but fairly common: The Casual, the Cinematic, and the Seductive.
The Casual, as mentioned by other commenters, is there to spend time with their friends, and they don't care that much for the specific game. They're usually just as happy to cancel the RPG for board games or a nerdy movie, they rarely pay close attention to the plot or rules, and they frequently miss sessions when something comes up. I've tried very hard in the past to find their interests and give them a spotlight, a side-quest, or some other reason to get more involved, but I always end up disappointed. In my experience, the best response is to just not expect them to be very interested; if they're showing up, they're having fun.
The Cinematic is similar to the hack-n-slasher in that they love grandiose combats and action, whether the plot makes sense or not. The difference is they usually make characters based on media they like rather than optimized for strategy, and while they love winning they also prefer larger-than-life action scenes with specific outcomes. It often feels like this player is always asking for more, because their expectations based on movies, manga, or TV is difficult to meet with a given RPG. My best advice is to let them describe the action sometimes, and if there's an inspiration you both share don't be afraid to blatantly reference it in your adventure. If you're comfortable with it, help them customize a character that fits within your game, even if you have to change a few rules.
The Seductive may be a subset of the Thespian, but it's that player who is not afraid to include sexuality in their roleplaying. They're often stereotyped in the community as "that bard who will bang any NPC," but my most notable encounters with this included a paladin and a sorcerer. These players are not necessarily creepy, although if they push the comfort zones of people at your table you should not be afraid to set some boundaries. My advice is to define ahead of time what your own boundaries are, and be very careful when roleplaying NPC interactions with these players--even if you have a large comfort zone, theirs inevitably turns out to be bigger. Honestly, roleplaying with these players can sometimes be very fun, just make sure you control the pace and tone, not them.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Never met a seductive but don't doubt they exist.
I love to bang NPCs haha
I LOVE the idea of combat encounters, where the p.cs are not the actual target.
Great video. Gonna run this as a oneshot at my brick & mortar when players start showing up again. Great inspiration.
The casual enjoyer, the role-player and "that guy"
Was extremely helpful. I can tell which of my players fit your achtypes.
Man I know this is an older video and the usual comments I leave are just praise /fluff and nothing to add to the topic, but man thanks for the effort and quality of your videos, I needed this video, just didn't realize until I watched it
I am def type 1 and 2. I'm all about exploring and the story, but developing your character requires bigger toys and leveling up.
With your permission sir, I would love to use your scenario. You have rekindled my love of D&D with your well thought out videos & after almost two years of debating, I am now going to start working on a new campaign.
Go ahead, Rex! All myself tuff is meant to be used.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 I always ask, just out of courtesy. Thank you !
"..then you have the people who just want to take out their daily frustrations on a bunch of orcs." I had to laugh at this statement; it's so true, and especially because I, as a DM, was really frustrated at one time (ok, many a time), and sent a mass of orcs just so that I could watch the party obliterate them. Amidst the gore, mayhem, and carnage, I felt my frustrations melt away. Who knew TTRPG combat could be so therapeutic. :)
Lol. Thanks for watching!
I'm primarily a "thespian', but I'm really a "co-author". I'm doing the same thing as a player that I do as a DM: trying to facilitate a coherent, gripping story for everyone. I'm not into accents, only somewhat into epic dialogue moments, but what I'm really into is making other players feel that my characters are as real as possible. If I can die at the right time, or bring out a temporarily mission-delaying but story-enhancing character flaw at the right time, that's my whole jam.
The crux is: I'm a meter-pegging extrovert. I could never be an author, because sitting in a quiet space with my own thoughts, trying to turn them into pages, would drive me batshit crazy. But what I can do really well, is make cool narratives collaboratively in real time.
This video stands the test of time. Still great advice and a very fun plot ideas.
I am about 80% problem solver but the other 20% is thespian. Making the game semi-theatrical can be fun and elevates the drama of things like social/diplomatic encounters and even those moment before a boss fight.
Absolutely!
I love that too
You are good ..
That was great.
Thanks for making this video and looking forward to watching the next.
I started watching this recently and love the themes
People speak about 4th type being the "companion" or "audience member". I dare say there's fifth: DM's girlfriend/wife. Not that much interested in the game itself, but she loves to listen to her boyfriend/husband. Whenever he starts framing a scene or acting as an NPC, a dreamy, flickering smile blossoms on her lips. :D
LOL. Never encountered that. I play with one husband-wife and she HATES his character!
Wow I love that. Gonna use that scenario for sure
One of my players was a problem solver and I kept giving him hints but he never figured it out
Check out my video on running mysteries! It's criminally under-viewed, but it offers the best hints that I wish someone had told me.
In my opinion, another opportunity would be for for the thespian to disguise his/her self as a Black Arrow Bandit, initiating a false sense of camaraderie while the other players sneak out of the hideout with the merchant's daughter.
Ah yes, categorisation! M'brain likes a good bit o' that!
I guess this makes me some weird blend of problem solver and thespian, though that fourth "Audience Member" category mentioned by a one Alex Johnson is definitely in there as well. Hack and slash isn't really my flavour, but I love finding out the objective and quietly contributing towards it, since, in the back of my head, that makes it easier for the DM to handle and helps them play more comfortably as well. Engaging with NPCs is a fun and direct way of funneling worldbuilding and other information to the players, too, as well as just the fun factor of a likable NPC encounter regardless of impact, so there's some thespian in there... but the second-biggest portion probably goes to Audience Member, since I'm not really there to be the star or anything, I just like to contribute in some way or another. Still working out how to do that without dipping into metagaming territory and still figuring out the tableside etiquette *et al*, though, so spotlight moments are a bit uncomfy.
Characters who are battlefield tacticians with good Intelligence and some Wisdom skills are probably going to be fun for problem solving, as well as clerics who can heal and support the party without having to themselves be the centre of attention, and giving them interesting personalities is nice for role-playing and bouncing off NPCs and PCs alike ♪
plus you can to beef up the other party members' chances of succeeding in whatever type of gameplay they fancy, with Guidance or literal guidance *a la* understanding the direction to go in
I love all of your advice, but I'm totally overwhelmed by your usage of terrain and detailed dungeon items down to barrels, beds, and tables. I love using some minis for PCs, battle maps with dry-erase markers, and that's it. Possibly with a few Lego prices as objects or obstacles.
XDM will soon be in print again!!
I heard. Hickman thanked me. Very cool.
D&D, AD&D specifically is built for giving wargamers an up close experience, and to make the games tense and fun to play, he added roleplaying to add motivation to adventure, and endear the players to the characters they play. D&D as a result attracted "amateur thespians" for the roleplay, "adrenaline junkies" for the thrills of dice based combat, story tellers for the ability to enthrall others in an adventure in a magical world, as well as puzzle lovers and war gamers for the tactical scenarios. Because of this being a DM is super difficult
Can you make a "Three types of DMs in D&D?"
I did a similar story bit with my current group and they have trusted no one sense.
I remember this adventure it was great fun.
Thespian/problem solver combination (in that order) here
I'm a thespian-warrior, myself.
dungeon craft well with me strongly preferring Wizard or Cleric characters (and failing that rogues), I think the problem solver fits those classes better, and how I like to role play. Of course shooting some nice chain Lightnings into a crowd of hobgoblins to insta kill them is always fun too lol. All this of course is for when I’ve rarely had the chance to be a player in the past, as I’ve mostly been the DM.
How do we add twists to adventures without making the problem solver feel cheated or deceived? What if the merchant's daughter allowed herself to be kidnapped by the bandits because she secretly fell in love with Black Angus? Or the merchant himself is a part of some evil cult which Black Angus is trying to stop? Or the bandits are also part druid defending their woods from the encroachment of greedy merchants? Thanks for the great video, Professor!
An issue I have with the more modern iterations of D&D is that they allows player to approach the social/RP elements of the game tactically and mechanically. I've had too many hack-and-slash players throw points at social skills and try to never relinquish the table.
Meet some monsters: throw dice at them.
Take one prisoner: throw dice at them.
See the baron for a reward: throw dice at them.
And so on...
It isn't an impossible problem to get around, but it does get tiresome sometimes. And, on that rare occasion when I get to be a player, it is even worse.
Patrick Robles I appreciate the comment. I am actually writing an episode on charisma right now and I’d love your insight. How do you handle it?
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 There are some situations where I am ok with a roll and a bare description. Maybe the table isn't loose and RP isn't going to happen, or the night is winding down and moving forward is critical.
My preference is to look at the character's stats and consider their appearance, status, etc. and, provided I get a good description or RP just to let it work. That's how I run most of the action in my games.
I watched another of your videos and you mention just letting a high level thief infiltrate a guarded room and stealing some documents, while you'd have a lower level thief roll to see if they're ALMOST caught. That is the space were I want most of my game to exist.
If I can get the table in a state of near constant engagement, with everyone participating in the way that they prefer, then I am doing my job. Maybe Flow is a good term. Any sort of action can happen in Flow, and I try to minimize the number of player rolls. Maybe one or two every 15-20 minutes, just to create tension and provide opportunities for interruptions to the expectations of the players.
Meanwhile I make quite a number of rolls behind the screen. Some are subterfuge, some are genuine, but I try to maximize player engagement. The players operate under the impression that BIG THINGS might have happened had my roll gone a different way. It is the performance aspect of DM'ing that I am best at, contrasted with voices and the like. I create tension based on the hidden information that I have access to. I think Charisma can flourish in that sort of environment. But, I still allow for the drama provided by players rolling dice. So, a sequence of events might culminate in a Charisma check. But, I think that the enjoyment and engagement that lead to the roll makes it memorable in a way that, say, the awkward grind of RAW high level combat is not.
I try to engage every skill that a player chooses, but I also make sure to lean on dump stats. I am very upfront about that during character creation. I try to stress that player creation shouldn't be seen as collecting a bunch of mechanics.
Black Angus. LOLs. ~Brian
most epic intro ever
!!!! I believe I just coined a new term for fantasy RPGs: the father says, "Maybe my daughter was held in a pillary or the stocks. I think she has stock-hold syndrome." 😃😃
OMG I just bought that book! I especially love their take on character sheets and penalty/bonus system.
Cool! We're talking about XDM, here? (Sorry--this is an old video and I'm old and befuddled).
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 actually, I got a kick out of the coincidence that your source (XDM) for the video was the same book that I recently got. I thought that was cool. After saying that I've enjoyed your videos.
you forgot the socialite. they are there to hang out with people. they love because it gives them time to be with friends and love down to talk to the players.
Oh the cheek of phone addicts, That's around the point I put them in a life threatening situation.
I'll be talking about gaming etiquette in a future episode. The phones need to go.
Aye, i'm really digging your channel dude, great stuff on here.
Yeah this really reminds me of my current table... i want more mystery and roleplay, and to improve my stories, now a player says maybe i prepare too much... idk personally but i just started improving and linking the ideas and scenarios ive had around the areas together...
Ideas: in this area there are...
WereWolves
Bandits
A lack of silver for the werewolves
A Hag
and in just one session, i improved them all, the bandits were hired to steal the silver, and also to use a vile liquid in small jars to turn people into werewolves, and they were all hired by the Hag... so... the kinda... scenario and area boss i had for this area is... in charge of all of dis... and i never really ran a game linking multiple things together like that and idk i think itd still be good but now its... well its all linked... each scenario was originally different.
Ah the old problem solving social encounter fight
Another question I have: How do you maintain the challenge and tension with players playing combat as war instead of combat as sport? For example, what if the players decide to just set the hideout on fire, forcing the bandits to flee while they snatch the merchant's daughter from under them? Thanks again, Professor!
I'm all of that , but I also make my plans to conquer the world too haha
there's another one my friend and it's the combination of all of those three you mentioned
sadly unicorns don't exist.
3:07 This is *great* advice.
All my players are chaotic evil murder hobos.
I’m thinking buying copious amounts of dynamite to blow up the bandits hideout might be one of those other solutions you were talking about. Then the thespian can be like “🎵bang bang into the room🎵”
This is fantastic
I'm generally wanting to interact, complete objectives, AND kill stuff... So I'm honestly not sure which of the 3 I best fit. It often depends on which character I play.
I have seen that there are players that like to create outrageous or game-breaking situations. Maybe the player is a rebel, or maybe the player has a chronic need for silliness, or maybe they are super-creative and have put that creativity to trying to break or alter the world- maybe they really want to be a DM rather than a player. Maybe they are just a scientist, and trying to suss out the limits of spells or magic items. They aren’t thespians, or hack and slashers- maybe they are most related to the problem solvers. But the problem they are tying to solve isn’t anything about the “stated” game mission. They are much more interested in sandbox play, I think.
Could be.
Hand crafted what clay models? I'm hooked. ~Brian
Ah yes, including from the afore-mentioned "Spectator/Audience" player, we have our classic 4 humours/temperaments by Alcmaeon. I prefer the business variation, the DiSC Profile.
Oof I'm a hack and slasher. Who Knew? I like problem solving too. Hmmmm I love acting too, but I don't worry about my character arc.
Though I am trying to get my chain of Dwarven Beer Taverns ( The Dwarves Friend) up and running oh and my shatter proof glass business and my LIDAR spell.
Thanks for sharing. This video is old but a good one.
I have the problem at my table, that i have almost only audience members. Those kind of playerse are nice to have, but if they come in such high numbers, that it feels sometimes like playing a 2 person session or even worse: talking to a wall.
Try to engage them by encouraging them to do sound effects (lightning, thunder, etc) and singing songs.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 i didnt think you woud anser :D
Thank you for the tipp.
Don't be afraid to use silence as a prompt (we Dms are often the talkative type). I have had that problem but noticed if I try to stay out of the spotlight and allow awkward silence to linger players come out if their shells at times.
I'm about 10% hack 'n slasher, 40% problem solver and 50% thespian (although I'm not that good at being a thespian (yet))
Brilliant
I see some Mordheim/Warhammer minis. Nice. +2 to my liking you :)
That's me with the note taking. lol
Good tips here except I guess my table is different from the norm because 1 combat per hour of play would = 1 combat and nothing else each hour. I think the idea that each combat can be built with the other two players in mind is genius though and I plan on stealing this shamelessly.
Thanks Will! See my episode on Speeding Up Combat.
could be a small combat or need of skills like someone is running off with a kidnapped child/baby and the players need to catch up to the cart, to catch the kidnapper...
or something...
skill challenges can be fun as well
I keep wonder Angus and his new bride and they all shove off. I know some of my players would rather stick it to a pre arranged marriage then return the daughter. Doesn't change the 3 types though.
Angus was great!
Does anybody know what music is playing in the background during the bandit encounter? ☺️
Found it out: the song is called „Volatile reaction“ 😁
Black Angus is hard to find, you might call him 'rare'.
The goal of type 1 and type 2 players is to get type 3 out of the tavern.
THESPIAN 70% HACK AN SLASHER! 30%
Me too!
I don’t see the link for the crafting page..
I honestly think that the hack and slasher probably dominates the player population in 2021. Followed by the problem solver and the thespian. I'm just going by players I have seen though. I could be wrong. I don't know of any surveys that have been done to gauge this.
Builder. Players who want to change the game world.
I'm all three types.
Abolsutely possible. But most players will gravitate slightly more to one than another.
....But i dont wanna be a pirate!!
The father only will pay if she is returned unharmed? Sure, I already imagine how my players are going solve this. Kill the backstabbing bi... I mean the "backstabbing lady" get the dowry and send her head to her father. Achieving revenge and compensation. And if compensation is not possible, they always prefer revenge above all else. What a lovely bunch of murderhobos I have xD
6:31 ???
I would say I'm the problem solver but solve problems by creating new ones.
Like let's say there's a rat infestation and an orc tribe this poor town man.
Me: HEY let's kill a bunch of rats... Make a stew out of them as a peace offering to the orcs so they go away?
Paladin: Ok one: Bioterrorism on all the orcs even the children is not bueno. Secondly: That doesn't solve either problems. Now the orcs just are sick and might still come back and spread the sickness.
Me: Or...get down with the sickness.
Paladin: ...
Me: oh WAH AH AH AH AH
Paladin: Can I smite him?
Me: Its better than any idea you've come up with.
Paladin: All your ideas are terrible. Remember when you wanted to torture an old lady for information?!
Me: She was hiding something. That old lady could've been a serial killer you don't know.
Paladin: Or that time you and the monk were both being selfish dicks sneaking down stairs in the tavern to steal something and woke us all up because he kept trying to go up stairs to kick you unconscious and you just kept...pushing him down the stairs?
Me: That's called self defense. This paladin does not believe in my second amendment right. Am I being detained?!
I'm literally all three types
I'm mainly a problem solver, too much or little of either of the other two, and I may get bored.
...
Depending on the character I'm playing, and the situation, I may be more inclined to prefer either combat or diplomacy.
THESPIANS UNITE!
Your so cute in all your outfits. Your the best.
Yes but what if the player is all three? >.>
I suggest you write a survey explaining the models and have the player rank them buy level of their personal preference. That way you can map out where to expend your creative efforts to be the most efficient.
I had 2 hp after that "non-lethal" encounter
You made it to end of scenario, if I recall correctly.
"But did you die"
Professor Dungeon Master, I felt cheated by Extreme Dungeon Mastering. I understand that they made an attempt at humor, but I paid for a product and got a bait and switch.
There are fantastic pieces of advice and ideas that are invaluable, but a big chunk of the book is fluff.
I don't feel like it's a matter of taste. It went from GM advice to dumb humor that really had no practical use.
It isn't my intention to complain on your channel, but I don't recommend that book.
I get what you're saying. I'm going to review it on an upcoming episode and I will point out the humor, which will not be to everyone's taste. However, the sections on percentages and the d20 and the GM section are priceless. I'm actually going to focus on the XDM system, which is brilliant and completely changed how I view/run games.
Facebook group? Link? I can not find it. Thank you!
I think this model doesn't explain everything. It is very inferior to the Robin Law's model IMHO.
Hack-n-Slashers aka murder hobos! The thespian can be some of the most annoying players, as the GM I don't want to role-play purchasing quality shoes at the cobblers, ugghhh... I prefer GMing, I am easily bored as a player.
thespians....ugh. i dont mind roleplaying in the sense of interactions and responses, but once they start doing voices with lame accents and getting involved in hours long discussion with npcs it starts getting on my nerves. get to the action and exploration please!
I thought for sure you were going to go all GNS here. The threefold model is nothing new, but yours is much less... prescriptivist or judgemental.
my player won't take less than a 10 ability score meaning neither bonus or penalty but pressures rolls of 15 or higher. with 19 or 20 in the near future. +2 longsword, +2 battle axe. ect. just overpowered. I only have one player, and live in a small town. at home, with mom, who won't let me seek out new players. kinda limits me on options. people can't be trusted these days and my mom is in poor health too. at 84 and on oxygen, a collapsed lung which may or may not be functioning. if I lose her, then I would move to my sister's house. no job. disability. very limited income for miniatures. little space. I am thinking of setting strict limits on magic spells to only practical spells like create food and water, magic missile, tashas uncontrollable hideous laughter, ghost image, lighting bolt, identify, ect. no power word spells or ethereal type spells and teleportation. they can cast any spell unlimited number of times if they know the spell, but maybe not casting chain lighting in a flooded dungeon. it would kill the monsters true enough, and the characters would be badly hurt since electricity would travel through the water to them. fireball would be bad too since dungeons can have built up levels of flammable gases. boom. blow the characters and the dungeon to kingdom come. a fire bolt my fry some dude's cloak, distracting him while a ranger hits him with an arrow. double whammy. I like a little magic but some is good, too much. not so good. I like your idea of capping hit points at third level. I get tired of subtracting 5 hp then 3 then 7 from a 93 hp creature. takes time. I like battles with 78 skeletons, 45 zombies, 19 ghouls and maybe a couple others thrown in. no time for subtracting a few hp. I need instant takedowns.
How do we add twists to adventures without making the problem solver feel cheated or deceived? What if the merchant's daughter allowed herself to be kidnapped by the bandits because she secretly fell in love with Black Angus? Or the merchant himself is a part of some evil cult which Black Angus is trying to stop? Or the bandits are part druid, while the merchants make their living selling timber from the local woods? Thanks for the great video, Professor!
I don't have an answer. For me--it's about making the twist BEFORE the adventure starts and sticking to it--even if the PCs figure the twist out.