About Da Vinci, some people said that to Da Vinci himself the Mona Lisa isn't that important of a painting and it's just a portrait for a customer. But since it's belong to him and arguably his most well known work of art, we collectively believed that it's very special. It's stated that a heroic spirit will be influence by the histories, myth and legend tie to them (condition may vary), which result in a Da Vinci who believed that Mona Lisa is the most beautiful woman like we do, regardless of whether it's true fact or not.
Funny enough the Mona Lisa was a work that Da Vinci procrastinated on for as long as possible since it was so boring for him to do. Eventually he was forced to mostly finish it but even then he didn’t want to do it. Heck the reason why it’s so valuable is literally only because it was stolen along with a dozen other paints by the Nazi’s if they didn’t do that it would remain as just another plain painting.
some servants really fit into this. Chevalier D'eon , Nagao Kagetora both are great example of this. (btw, in ACreed Unity u do meet Chevalier Deon but he appears with 3d model of a female NPC and tells u not to worry about it lmao) pretty sure in fate lore the servants are maasively influenced by thier public image and fame. So yeah no wonder da vinci is the way it is (Funny thing, i saw FGO's version of Da vinci without any context without who that is but i knew about fate's desire to genderbend and since she looked like an anime Version of Monalisa i was like "omg is that da vinci" and she/he was)Same goes for C. Hendersen, he iis lil boy in fgo woth the voice of a grandpa since his stories are linked with children tales. Even T. Edison looking like a lion king humanoid has good lore reason. Honestly most servants have solid lore tfoor hoow they look or exist in the Age/Gender/Formm that theu are. ppretty cool honestly. but yeah first time i reallized the genderbent FFing miyamoto musashi i was like ffs. The only really lazy one is Francis Drake. even nero can work lol
@@Shade_Knightlythat could be argued with, like for example, a sketch of the Mona Lisa's smile in one of his studies of the muscles of the mouth, if he truly didn't think of the Mona Lisa in high regard, then why go all the trouble to learn about what makes the lips move for a painting he didn't care for?
@@alexandriospendragon That could be argued he used this painting as basically to workshop things for future paints he actually cared about. Like going "Man I don't want to keep redrawing this great work whenever I mess up on something I don't like. Well guess I can use this thing instead not like I really care about how well it turns out."
@@durrangodsgrief6503 What are you on about. Precisely the metaphorical link is what gives her the connection to the book of revelations. Otherwise they beasts would've been nameless creatrures without any connection to myths whatsoever. And in a world where myths are real, why the heck not make the "metaphor" turn into real powers?
Making Nero female isn’t ridiculous and can tie into her Historical Lore. Historical Nero was incredibly passionate about Theatre, where it’s well documented he would crossdress and play the female roles in the plays he acted in.
I personally really like Van Gogh. The interesting part is that it's technically not a Genderbend, but a suicidal man's memory and power put into a Goddess who refuses to die. So the body might be of Clytie's, but 90% of the memory and power were all belong to Van Gogh. The poor bloke was having an identity crisis when they were becoming Heroic Spirit. But in the end, they name themselves as "Clytie Van Gogh", so yayyy :DD
I actually also like their story of OG van Gogh that he's crazy because he can see and his paintings were gateways for outer gods. The outer gods were using him to enter earth he knew that that's why he killed himself.
Tbf wasn't it because.... (potential spoilers below) The actual Van Gogh was insanely resistant to the outsiders influence that tried to get him to do something, constantly trying to end his own existence rather than to bow down to them or answer their demands? And the outsiders tried to push him to the point he utterly lost his mind, but still inherently refused to abide by their demands? So instead, they tried to get around him constantly ending his existenxe by putting his memories and essence into a godly being that was just as determined to _not_ end as Van Gogh was to end his existence?
I love that Shuten changed himself into a woman for the sole reason to mess with Kintoki, also that Shuten could also be both because portrayed as female a lot, but mainly the first
I absolutely love Kagetora for the reasons you covered. I didnt know anything about it until she came to the game, and then saw people talking about it, and it's brilliant. I also love Artoria and Musashi for being similarly well explained. My favorite that you didnt cover is Nobunaga, because I love how she can be a little comedy gremlin waifu and yet still live up to her Demon King moniker, at least from what I've seen of Redline.
I also love Nobunaga for that as they used the fact that the Oda clan had alot of revolutions and almost civil wars around Owari as most clan members didn't wanted Nobunaga to rule wich could be interpreted as Nobunaga being originally a female
@@jedimike7622 yeah but another reason could be the Light Novel Oda Nobuna no yabou wich had an anime but never a second season yet i still wonder wich came out first. Fate Nobbu design or Oda Nobuna no yabou novel
Yeah but that’s so much of a nonsense idea. We have historically powerful queens and empresses that weren’t falsely documented so making so many of these women in beat with the excuse that they were falsely documented, just seems lazy. Also boiling down all of these inaccuracies just to sexism makes this feel so much more fake.
@@yumin_pluto558 I wouldn't necessarily label it as "nonsense" - far stranger things have happened in history, after all - moreso than I would label it unlikely. History tends to document things from the victor's point of view, and tends to more completely paint the picture of that side.
I really liked Oda Nobunaga’s genderbend in Fate. Though it wasn’t really highlighted, it’s still pretty interesting for me. It somewhat added more depth into her character. Her backstory as a bold and unconventional leader clashes with the rigid expectations of her time, where being a woman could have potentially doomed her ambitions. The Oda clan’s struggles with succession would also have been worse, as her position as heir would likely have been dismissed outright (Or she would have been married off to another clan)
Nobunaga is one of that strange case where being male or female won't affect her characterization much. It's all just Nobu being... Nobbu. Granted, GudaGuda Nobu (they one we got) isn't exactly the same version as the PHH one. Best way to explain Nobu is with their genre savviness.
Funny enough, Nero and Artoria resembling each other could be seen as a nod to theories about the historical Arthur possibly being Roman. Also there is that story about Nero marrying a man, with Nero himself being the bride.
I liked the Van Gogh one. It's both a genderbend and not a genderbend at the same time. The idea of a being that is a amalgamation of a nymph body, an artist memories and an eldritch horror powers really interesting.
One that isn’t talked about much is Pollux. The reason was genderbent was because the people who voice the Dioscuri are twins and one of them is a female, so the developers simply just followed that.
That's the doylian (real world perspective) explanation, but would be nice to know about the Watsonian one (the reason in universe). For example, Artoria's Watsonian explanation is that a woman wouldn't be able to rule so she hid her gender. Artoria's Doylian explanation is that they wanted the MC to be a guy so they shifted Arthur into a woman to keep the romance option.
The thing is, it was actually 4 kids. 2 boys and 2 girls. One of each child of Zeus and the other 2 mortals. The girls were Helen of Troy and Clytemnestra. I don't know if there is a way to connect FGO Pollux to her sisters (mainly Helen of Troy being the child of Zeus) or if they could rewrite it as 3 girls and a single boy.
@@yubalesquer8495 maybe the 2 mortal child fuse into Casto, and him being an avenger is because of his sister's influence. And similarly, Pollux now has the appearance of Helen.
I really like Jack The Ripper’s story of essentially being a wrath born of botched abortions taking the form of being a little girl and then exercised by a mage, as the real Jack The Ripper was never caught, so no one knows who they were or why the killings stopped. This narratives makes complete sense of that, and fits within the Nasuverse. I wish her ascensions were less revealing though. Another character I want to highlight is Fran, you don’t have to change much to the story to make it work. Plus, she’s too cute for me not to love.
She's one of the possible candidates for the real identity of Jack the Ripper, but she's not THE 100% confirmed Jack the Ripper. It's not exactly a genderbend either if one can't know the real identity of the culprit in the first place.
I would say my favorite is Ushiwakamaru. No real reason for the genderbend but she is my favorite tomboy who has saved my ass in the early game of FGO before I had more powerful single target unites.
@@affixrey419 Her profile in the game says she/her and doesn't seem to suggest that she's ever been anything but a woman. But if that's what someone wants to have as their headcanon I won't yuck someone else's yum.
@@affixrey419 nah, no way, he would get humiliated for that, and executed. If he somehow managed to trans himself in the first place. in fgo logic, he could be(because of magic) but there's no way to prove that.
Missed one of the best in the form of Hokusai and Bakin, the way Hokusai made his art actually involved many hands so even when his daughter took over she also worked under his name so she gets to be summoned as Hokusai as well, Bakin made hakkenden when he was old, so his daughter in law was actually the one writing it while he dictated, since servants have to be summoned on their prime and Bakin's prime as a writer could be argued was while writing Hakkenden, is his daughter in law who gets summoned instead because she is actually young during that time and since she wrote it she gets the right to be summoned as Bakin as well, it's genius.
As someone who aspires to make his own story I love the concept of taking inspiration from something but completely turning it on its head and making it your own fate has always been one of my favorite anime’s for that an anime that made women look and feel strong without it being too much
But it is too much, its taking a man's merit and giving them to a female character instead of finding proper ones, its very core is a mistake in that aspect
One od my favorites examples is also Kagetora as it is actually historically accurate and i once found a guy in twitter who wrote an article about it too and explained it logically with things like how Echigo had just too much civil wars and complains about Kagetora even for that time or how she was allowed on the temple where only woman were allowed to go in or how his body was never found and was moved alot from place to place like it's clan didn't wanted anyone to find out the truth. Also i believe that one of the reasons Sugitani senjubo and Nobunaga are also females could be linked to the novel "Oda Nobuna No Yabou" where in it Nobunaga is also a woman alongside most retainers, Daymio and important figures so since Fate does takes some inspiration from other franchises to make the characters it could be possible they used it as a reference. There's also an anime with the same name tho it never got a season 2
@@Niccogamer01 Nobunaga is also a female in Sengoku Collection. There are a lot of Japanese medias that gender bends unsurprisingly . Fate happens to be the most well known.
@@JaimeNM137 it was a japanese light novel basically the before a manga is made like a book but in japan it's a novel, never knew if it ever ended but i loved the anime and my question still stands of wich was first. Nobunaga from Fate/Type redline being made a female or the novel Nobunaga being a female. Wich one came out first?
One of my favorites is Jaques de Molay, there's a good reason for genderbent Molay to exist, and to be fair, she is not really the real Molay, no, he exists (just not in mobile fgo), she is in a similar situation as Jeanne Alter, a pretty much completelly made up heoric spirit, just by an outer god instead of a creep.
@@icyhugs not really, the original jaques de molay died but this lovecraft eldricht horror possessed his body changing the gender too, yes, it have almost every single memory but in essence, is not the same person / entity
I like the theory given about Dobrynyan that it's actually not the bogatyr himself, but his wife being summoned. That does not explain the existence of catgirls during the era of Rus', but I think it's a fun and unique explanation nonetheless
Honestly she doesn't even work as the wife either, mainly because she was explicitly mentioned as a giant in his myth. They could've taken a way better approach in this tbh.
Gonna mention a few things; Nero Claudius in FGO is a woman because it is well documented that he was a party goer and in one such instance dressed up in bridal dress and married (pretended to?) a nearby participant just to get a rise out of the people watching. You thought the Bridal dress nero was just fan-service but it actually has historical significance. Considering the last Empress of Nero was also a eunuch that he dressed up as his recently 'deceased' wife it likely wasn't the strangest thing he did. In Fate/Extra we also find out that Nero is not just Nero but also a representative for the whore of Babylon likely due to his eccentricities and extremely debaucherous life (it is said that prostitutes lined the streets where the real life Nero lived). I think Nero in Fate wearing skimpy clothing actually is relevant to her character. I imagine that Fate/Extra was playing with the idea of Nero being a man whore in life and thus attached the whore of babylon idea to the character because of this. I think the Francis Drake situation might be referencing an event that occurred in 1581 in which Queen Elizabeth boarded the Golden Hind in order to knight Francis Drake. In Fate/Extra I believe the implication was that during this visit the two swapped places or she sent back a double and traveled with Drake for a time.
It was funny learning about Genderbenting Da Vinci the first time i saw her, because years before that i was having a History of art class with a teacher, and she started talking about how some people actually thought thst Mona Lisa was Da Vinci's ideal self. How he wanted to look like... Basically that he might have had ideas of wanting to be a gorgeous woman. And then, many years later, Fate does this. It was quite the Whiplash flashback i had to that class lol
I think the genderbends ties back to Servant Summoning. That is to say some servants fully utilize the flawed summonings, Anderson and Don Quixote believing their peaks were at their physically weakest. Da Vinci believing the Monalisa was important to him or Salonne being the villain. But you get some flimsey afterthought excuses like Altera and Raikou and some outright meta jokes like Pollux, Bunyon, and Nero and as bad as some of them are giving any watsonian explanation to them would take away the last shred of value to some of their designs
Okita reasoning would be great: if She wasnt introduced duringn a gudaguda event . AN event that even in-universe they mention Being Just stupidly nosensical
actually Koha ace. Okita had been around since the gag manga series with the tsukihime characters being the servant of Kohaku. most of the Gudaguda cast come from Koha ace.
@@Zankyo137 there is no wall they removed it. just look at the beginning section of carnival phantasm Hibichika special. They made an animated section for Koha ace judge it for yourself.
@@MokoES Even before that. They were just gag characters commenting on type moon news in a comical manner within that magazine (Koha Ace is a magazine, the gag manga story was an story made after her debut). Her only reason for existing back then was to say "Hey, we got a new Heroic Spirit" only for it to be a Saberface. She's the punchline of a very old joke.
The real reason okita and nobu is genderbent cause they're made to resemble kohaku (okita) and akiha (nobu) in gag manga. Red hair nobu is a reference to akiha. Then they give them another reason after they're implemented in fgo.
I like the character, but the reason to gender flip them is flimsy: Ushwakamaru, Jing Ke, Okita Souji (just being effeminate handsome isn't enough, or the Prince of LanLing would would also be female), Nero, Gareth (unlike Artoria not much thought given to the implications), Pollux (though the relationship with her brother and thus his protective streak towards the stronger sister is something), Xu Fu. Does it even count as gender flip?: Ganesha/Jinkao Carigiri (just a vessel and Ganesha just grants Jinako some power), Ibaraki Douji (if that counts as genderflip at all, since some versions of the tale have her being the female mate of Shuten Douji; but even if it counts as genderflip the connection to Watanabe no Tsuna and his almost girlfriend is well executed and makes only sense in this constellation), Kama (it is just vessel, but one that makes sense to pick; we even have seen male versions), Van Gogh (Clythie, 'nuff said), Kiichi Hougen (shapechanging Tengu, only appears female now), Mysterious Ranmaru X (just the strongest Ranmaru of Planet Ranmaru, not historical male Ranmaru; their gender is not even constant it seems), Dobrynya Nikitich (it probably is just his wife Nastasia taking his place, even more forcefully than Artemis did to Orion), Manannán mac Lir (it is just vessel and the god is male, but has not problem of utilizing the female vessel for more femineity than the original owner), Super Bunyan (it is just trap by trickster god in a delicate balance of non-awareness ...), Sancho (in Don Quixote) (the majority of the side characters that are not Sancheo Panza accumulated in her are female: Rosinante the horse, Dulcinea the fictional princess, Antonia his niece, Teresa Sancho's wife, Sanchica Sancho's daughter, Altisidora and the Duchess who prank Don Quixote by playing to his delusions, the innkeeper's daighter who pranks Don Quixote abut also loves the chivalric romances he reads), Sen no Rikyu (the body is mostly Koma-hime and they act together), Huyan Zhuo (it is the Empousa part that requires them to be female), Tenochtitlan (the city has no gender in traditional sense, the (male) gods are just associated as patron deities), Kashin Koji (the body is just puppet and they had male bodies at other points in the past; their personality is eroded and they react according to the identity they are reminding the person they talk to of; they don't even know the gender they started with), Yamato Takeru (gender ambiguous, not necessarily flipped), Azumi no Isora (Hibiki & Chikagi) (technically it is a female and a normally female appearing being acting as shrine maidens or later a vessel for a male god). At least there is a lore reason: Francis Drake, Shuten Douji (Shapechanging abilities), Xuanzang Sanzang (it is almost a tradition to have the Tripitaka being portrait by or as a woman), Minamoto no Raikou (Ushi-Gozen being her other side, and that entity being often female), Paul Bunyan (Udon dough born, not quite "the" Paul Bunyan), Katou Danzou (identity secret as ninja + being a doll to begin with), Altera (a big can of worms, given the Sefar business), Ibuki Douji (natural result of doing to Shuten Douji; relevant only for Servant personality [gyaru antics]), Jacques de Molay (Foreigner vessels to Mythos deities are always female; "seduction" angle, we have seen the male version). At least they took some care to thing about the implications: Artoria, Oda Nobunaga, Frankenstein's Monster, Shuten Douji (Shapechanging abilities; I like how it changed the dynamic with Kintoki), Sima Yi (natural result from Zhuge Liang being in Waver, relationship of Servants and of vessels). I think the reason for the gender flip is really smart: Taira no Kakakyou (follows naturally from Usiwakamaru's gender, being an inhabitable "grudge" makes having various bodies makes sense), Leonardo DaVinci, Mordred (natural consequence of Artoria being female and the change to special homunculus), Quetzalcoatl (it is just a vessel, and even without Servant status, for the Malla derived Mesoamerican gods it is just a vessel ...), Jaguar Man (Taiga + it being a class of being to Olmecs, the aspect of the Jaguar being the Nahual of Tezcatlipoca, so they have to fit her ...), Miyamoto Musashi (other world + they did think about the implications for her life story ...), Nezha (not only are there versions before FGO where Nezha's new body is female, they also gave her that trait of being proud of the body they were given, as shown with the way they handle the pirate who makes advances to her in Salem ...), Uesugi Kenshin/Nagao Kagetora (all already mentioned in the video), Vritra (shapechanging dragon; parallels to Tiamat due to Chaoskampf motive etc.), Kyokutei Bakin (unlike Hokusai where the father-daughter teams has mostly separate bodies, here the body the author who got blind in his old age is always that of the daughter in-law who acted as his writing hand a secretary in these times), Sugitani Zenjūbou (they were male and did only ask for a new face, not a new body ... then they woke up as female after the procedure was done by Kashin Koji), Saika Magoichi (that name is a title, we know of at least 3 Saika Ikki leaders assuming it).
Nero is genderbent because in the Book of Revelations the Whore of Babylon specifically referred to Rome under Nero's rule. And the Beast's seven heads and ten crowns being the seven hills of Rome with its ten emperors. Nasu just made the whole thing a lot more literal.
@@cheesepuffsthings I would rather argue because they wanted to gender flip Nero to make a misdirection they had the chance to conflate the Whore of Babylon with the Beast of 666. The later is most commonly interpreted as Nero (666 which numerologically is usually נרון קסר, NronQsr, a Hebrew way of writing Neron Kaisar (the Greek version of writing Emperor Nero). NRVNQSR is just transliterating the ו waw with a v instead of a w, which is perfectly valid as w is the transliteration in English for historical reasons, but the pronunciation is closer to v in Modern Hebrew. But in this case the waw is just a ḥolam male, it is meant as stand in for the diacritic Niqqud sign that would denote the o in Ner_o_n .], but the former was in the interpretations not the emperor, but the former is more often seen as an embodiment of Rome as power, not a specific emperor. A female Nero made it possible to have her being both, the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns/crowns and the whore riding on it. Which also gave us the whole "Rider Nero" angle and allusions to her avoiding that class, because of the Beast connection.
I just love it how during the first stages of the Fate/ Stay Night visual novel development, it all started with a nonchalant remark that went along the lines of, "I dunno, why don't you make Saber a girl then?"
@@EMIYA53 Not in her Summer version anymore. She's starting to feel less vulnerable to being her original self again as she realises she's surrounded by genuine and loving people.
Personally, Jack the Ripper ripper from I believe fate apocrypha has good logic because for a long time we had no clue who jack was, which leaves a lot of room for creative storytelling about him
A proof that people doesn't mind about changing race , skin tone or even speicie. As long as they have the following. 1. good character design. 2. good character writing. 3. good story telling. 4. know their fanbase. 5. know how to sell the product. 6. didn't go on and insult their own customer base. Funny that it is somehow hard to grasp concept for a whole bunch of people.
Also I loved in one of the Remants you have the option to Flirt with Da Vinci and she just goes “Did you just flirt with your Superior Officer? Good, keep it up.”
I quite like the series interpretation of tang sanzang. Tripitaka is referred to as a man in the original journey to the west of course, but in most stories he's put into the position of "damsel in distress" and isn't often attributed as having many, if any traditionally masculine qualities like strength or sexual prowess. Though he is noted as having quite a handsome face. Many adaptions of journey to the west cast him as somewhat effeminate to help reinforce the image of someone who is not particularly physically strong. Some adaptations straight up cast a woman to play the part of the monk as well, so sanzang appearing as a woman in fgo wouldn't even be the first genderbend of the character. Her using the powers of her desciples also strikes me personally as maybe a call to the character's reputation of being the damsel in distress from the book; getting kidnapped by demons so many times sounds pretty annoying. And though sanzang is a monk at heart, given all the times sun wukong came to the rescue, i don't find it hard to think perhaps some of his techniques were observed and learned so she could have some of her own defense against the forces willing to eat her. Same for the other disciples. Part of me is a little disappointed that the designer either wasn't willing or wasn't able to make a bald/shaved hairstyle work with her appearance, but I do appreciate that she's a brunette.
Before shirou and arthoria. The main character is supposed to be ayaka and Arthur. When kinoko nasu is writing this idea. He got no confidence, he thought that his story was overdone and too cliche. He told takeuchi (his best friend and main artist for fate stay night/typemon). Then takeuchi said "just flipped their gender". Nasu thought this was horrible idea and thought takeuchi was just joking. But takeuchi was serious. So nasu try it and he thought it's actually brilliant. When you thought of female king Arthur at that time. Who would come to mind? No one right😂. That's it. Sorry for my bad English
It seems people doesn't know about okita and nobu real reason to be genderbent. The real reason okita and nobu is genderbent cause they're made to resemble kohaku (okita) and akiha (nobu) in gag manga. Red hair nobu is a reference to akiha. Then after that they give them another reason when they're implemented in fgo.
The number 1 reason. Because Waifu. LMAO As a veteran fgo player, I think the first genderbend that put me off was Da Vinci. Reason being, Da Vinci is well known to be a man as well as he has a real portrait if I remember correctly and I feel like twisting the history like that is a big stretch even for Type-Moon standards. I believe the reason why he appeared in the body of Mona Lisa is because he sought beauty or something? Not really sure since it's been a while, and doesn't really bother me anymore. As you play FGO you just stop questioning the reasons lol. Xu Fu is a loli that simps for Yu Meirin? sure that may as well happen. In truth, Xu Fu is a dude. The most genderbend that I didn't like comes from Apocrypha. Jack the ripper somehow is a loli, I think It was explained why but I stopped bothering. There's also Astolfo which isn't a genderbend but a trap. Then you really really really just stop questioning lmao. I love Mordred though, she's cool. The best reason for me though, is that parallel universes. Arthur is a woman and there really exist a male Arthur. That broadens the horizon of how much they can twist hystorical figures because if Male Arthur exist means every heroic spirit has a version that reflects our real world history. Parallel universes in type-moon.
Nero, I think it can be justified because she is related to the Whore of Babylon and that is demonstrated with her Beast version. Francis Drake is more difficult to find an explanation but I think it must be related to the version of Drake that we saw in Agartha that was a fusion with the character of Princess Dahut, I really didn't know that story that she was actually Queen Isabel taking her role, where did she come from?
I think drake's genderbend is not that bad, the idea that the real francis drake is still a man and that fate's drake is Elizabeth the first and she is treated as a captain because of the respect the sailors had for her is quite fine in my book
Da Vinci definitely has my favourite logic behind Artoria. Good discussion points all around.👍👍👍 Also the Anime footage in your video looks horrendous.
"You'll find most historic accounts of famous people veered to depict them as 30-something-year-old white men." - Saber of UBW Abridged by Project Mouthwash
i recall in a character analysis is that among the Shinsengumi, Okita was among, if not the only member, who did not get a photograph portrait. So while written as a man, we have no photo to actually compare their face allowing artist some liberty.
Davinci seems like a guy who, if he could turn into a woman with magic, probably would at least for a while, for the experience to grant him inspiration for art/inventions.
The design of Neros "revealing" dress can be somewhat explained. In many stories about the historical Nero it is stated, that he showed and lived his sexuality as he pleased. So giving a genderbend version of him a look through skirt etc can be a way to incorporate this characteristic of Nero himself. But this does not explain the genderbend in itself ... A similiar thing can be said about Astolfo. The fact that this character in fate looks so female can be explained. The actors of Astolfo in the theater plays were females most of the time. So I can see why in fate astolfo looked so feminine.
Now that is interesting. I always thought Astolfo looks the way he does because he was depicted as a very handsome man, and the fact that his lore mentions he's literally lost his healthy mind most of the time
I did not understood at first about this, but my older brother told me its the nasu verse, thats why when Arthur Pendragon came along and portrayed as from another world it made me understood thats the IRL Arthur Pendragon.
If i remember correctly, nobu also fall in a similiar category as musashi, like there is a male nobunaga, we know that, and we also know that he is canoniclly more powerfull than female nobu, a fact she isnt to thrilled about. Besides she is supposed to be a bit of a gag character to and yeah.
There's some belief now that DaVinci was on some level Transgender. If you overlap their acknowledged self portraits and the Mona Lisa while removing facial hair they match up almost perfectly so alot of people now believe the Mona Lisa was secretly a self-portrait which makes the DaVinci Genderbend even better! As for a Genderbend that wasn't mentioned in this video I wanna mention Sanzang! Apparently at some point the role in old Journey To The West Plays for the stage a woman ended up with the role and she so perfectly personified the role that it became a tradition to cast a woman for the role of Sanzang so her being genderbent circles back around to the fact that they've been gender bending them for years even before FGO!
Just Remember Guys, Artoria was turned into a woman cuz the OG Fate was an Eroge and having a SwordFight with the OG Arthur was not a very good idea due to their target audience, so a bunch of Hony people made not just one of the best Genderbends but also a Female character that represents what an Strong woman is WAY BETTER than anything that Hollywood has made on the last 10 years
2:51 I have an answer for this. She's Roman As for Drake, there have been depictions of pirate women who show off more chest like in the case of Mary Read and Anne Bonny
da vinci's case is weird as she is/isn't da vinci anymore. the painter molded this da vinci from his mona lisa physical paint, He gave her his memories and essence, his original body disappearing in the process, but this girl is autonomous from that moment, what's more, after the "death" of this Mona Lisa, another new Da Vinci awakens in the body of a little girl with a face of a younger monalisa. This new Da Vinci is another automata but modeled from the body of another work that the artist did in life, the "Gran Cavallo", who also shares the memories not only of the painter but of the previous Mona Lisa, implying that there are more and new Da Vinci's ready to wake up in case another one falls in battle and all of them are automatic models of his works of art. This way we can understand that each da vinci is a different being that shares memories of their previous life, like a reincarnation, ... since the trans idea does not apply if they are new bodies and not just a body modification as in the loli version because monalisa was physically eliminated.
I didn't know the full reasoning behind Jack the Ripper as a loli for a good while. When I first saw it, I thought it was just the character designer daring the audience to prove that she wasn't, and I would have been okay with that.
Personally, I like Nezha’s genderbend even if she’s too damn underpowered in the game. Nezha was a guy but due to his appearance people usually mistook him for a girl and sounded like one too (heck there is even some masculinity in her voice line despite the robot like accent) at least until he got older.
Personally I still think Caenis holds the rank of best gender-bender in FGO. It's literally in their myth. A woman turned into a man. Then FGO turns them BACK INTO a woman because of Poseidon.
Do Servants need to be 100% rooted in fact to manifest how they are perceived? I doubt. Simply the chance a servant can be perceived as female allows them to be summoned that wau
In Samurai remnant musashis gender bend is touched on a bit more, where she claims to be from an alternative time line, where she just happened to be born a woman
Caenis has an genderbending that isn't which is an reference to her myth in Greek mythology that if I'm not mistaken is about an man who at some point turns into a woman and also caenis is part of the argonauts in case anyone didn't knew Another genderbent which is kinda an genderbent is the case for chevalier d'eon where it is unclear which gender is since it was an guy who changed his gender some times until he settled on one gender, in other words it is unclear which gender he is in when summoned, it can be an male chevalier d'eon or an female chevalier d'eon
Wasn't caenis assaulted by a water god and thus made some wish to be a man out of spite? Edit: Rechecked and It was poseidon who did it AND turned her into a man so no one else could, Wild. She even brought it up in reference to ophelia(The whole walking shoeless on a beach thing which makes sense now)
Jack the Ripper is a freaking twist that put every other twist in gacha games ever exist looks like kid's writing. Read up on the Assassin's Jack the Ripper for Nasuverse.
Yeah, I know both of them. This is just my personal opinion, but I freaking hate her kid design, lol. For me, it would’ve been fine if it were a boy and not overly sexualized. But yeah, I agree with you, both their concepts are really cool.
One genderbend I kinds disliked was Nobunaga, mostly because I know the figure mostly from games, the design could have gone to Oichi instead. One I don't want to see genderbend is Guan Yu, even though I like koihime musou and the female Guan Yu is one of my favoritesvin the series. Also I don't belive they have a female historical figure be male in fate(mostly because off$$$ reasons), Bringing koihime musou again they actually did did with Diaochan of people.
with Diaochan is harder to make her as "the most charming one" in the story if she stay female while almost everyone else also female. beside.... look at those packs..
That's a stretch. Yeah it's considered eroge. But if 2 hours of s3 x that you can skip ruin the 60 hours of story. That's on you. With that logic I can say any Hollywood movies with 1 minutes of s3 x is born movie
I always felt like Fate's Nero should've been.. well, trans. In a way similar to what they would do with Di Vinci. As in, whatever body they may have possessed in historic reality, Nero's ideal self in their own mind was that petite feminine form were familiar with -- one inspired by their peculiar interpretation of Venus. Not only would this represent Nero's ability to combine their exceptional mental strength with their vivid capacity for self-delusion to change the very nature of their Saint Graph, but could be seen as a subconscious method of estranging themselves from their dark personal history. Nero, recorded into history as a mad villainous tyrant, is now this loveable short-stack goofball filled with humanistic optimism in the face of Fate/Extra setting's utter bleakness through sheer force of will.
@@mr.skeptic Honestly I have no clue. The only thing I could think is lacking is Okita, because her reasons for being genderbend are more "revised" rather than the original ones. You explained well what is going on with the rest of characters talked about in this video.
There is fanart about the female cast and male cast got genderbend, while drake become those handsome guy with abs as replace of boobs, nero.... well not so well to me.
... You mean, like, making both Jeanne and Johanna guys? That's... honestly weird. Johanna's unique thing is to be the ONLY Poppess. Making her male would basically make her one thing making her famous disappear. Jeanne would be strange but not like she didn't dress as a boy in real history sometimes.
I was badly influenced all these years, that's why I'm so disappointed with the new years 2025 JP servant.... No waifu, no game. There's a reason I don't have Oberon yet, too ugly to waste precious SQ 🤣
It's good, if they didn't do it too much, but at this point, the way I see it they just making excuse to make many waifu, because if they want to be Historically/mythologicaly accurate, that's kind of hard. Not that they are accurate tho, specially around Britain's, it's so much mess imo. Also, people recognize it as FGO rather than Nasuverse or Fateverse kind of showing that this Series rely too heavily on this Game. Kind of bothering me that there's no new Fate series recently.
About Da Vinci, some people said that to Da Vinci himself the Mona Lisa isn't that important of a painting and it's just a portrait for a customer. But since it's belong to him and arguably his most well known work of art, we collectively believed that it's very special. It's stated that a heroic spirit will be influence by the histories, myth and legend tie to them (condition may vary), which result in a Da Vinci who believed that Mona Lisa is the most beautiful woman like we do, regardless of whether it's true fact or not.
Also, I don't think most people even know what Da Vinci looked like.
Funny enough the Mona Lisa was a work that Da Vinci procrastinated on for as long as possible since it was so boring for him to do. Eventually he was forced to mostly finish it but even then he didn’t want to do it. Heck the reason why it’s so valuable is literally only because it was stolen along with a dozen other paints by the Nazi’s if they didn’t do that it would remain as just another plain painting.
some servants really fit into this. Chevalier D'eon , Nagao Kagetora both are great example of this.
(btw, in ACreed Unity u do meet Chevalier Deon but he appears with 3d model of a female NPC and tells u not to worry about it lmao)
pretty sure in fate lore the servants are maasively influenced by thier public image and fame. So yeah no wonder da vinci is the way it is (Funny thing, i saw FGO's version of Da vinci without any context without who that is but i knew about fate's desire to genderbend and since she looked like an anime Version of Monalisa i was like "omg is that da vinci" and she/he was)Same goes for C. Hendersen, he iis lil boy in fgo woth the voice of a grandpa since his stories are linked with children tales. Even T. Edison looking like a lion king humanoid has good lore reason. Honestly most servants have solid lore tfoor hoow they look or exist in the Age/Gender/Formm that theu are. ppretty cool honestly.
but yeah first time i reallized the genderbent FFing miyamoto musashi i was like ffs.
The only really lazy one is Francis Drake. even nero can work lol
@@Shade_Knightlythat could be argued with, like for example, a sketch of the Mona Lisa's smile in one of his studies of the muscles of the mouth, if he truly didn't think of the Mona Lisa in high regard, then why go all the trouble to learn about what makes the lips move for a painting he didn't care for?
@@alexandriospendragon That could be argued he used this painting as basically to workshop things for future paints he actually cared about. Like going "Man I don't want to keep redrawing this great work whenever I mess up on something I don't like. Well guess I can use this thing instead not like I really care about how well it turns out."
Nero as a Servant is because of her ties to the Whore of Babylon. Thats in EXTRA. Now... now its Nasu History in FGO.
Which is bad given revelation is purely metaphorical than literal and rome given in accepted Christ is not the beast
@@durrangodsgrief6503 What are you on about.
Precisely the metaphorical link is what gives her the connection to the book of revelations. Otherwise they beasts would've been nameless creatrures without any connection to myths whatsoever.
And in a world where myths are real, why the heck not make the "metaphor" turn into real powers?
@@durrangodsgrief6503you have no idea how the Throne of Heroes works
Making Nero female isn’t ridiculous and can tie into her Historical Lore.
Historical Nero was incredibly passionate about Theatre, where it’s well documented he would crossdress and play the female roles in the plays he acted in.
@@durrangodsgrief6503 every myth is just a bunch of metaphor and figurative statement, there's no way exist a spear that have a sure hit ability
I personally really like Van Gogh. The interesting part is that it's technically not a Genderbend, but a suicidal man's memory and power put into a Goddess who refuses to die. So the body might be of Clytie's, but 90% of the memory and power were all belong to Van Gogh. The poor bloke was having an identity crisis when they were becoming Heroic Spirit. But in the end, they name themselves as "Clytie Van Gogh", so yayyy :DD
I actually also like their story of OG van Gogh that he's crazy because he can see and his paintings were gateways for outer gods. The outer gods were using him to enter earth he knew that that's why he killed himself.
Tbf wasn't it because.... (potential spoilers below)
The actual Van Gogh was insanely resistant to the outsiders influence that tried to get him to do something, constantly trying to end his own existence rather than to bow down to them or answer their demands?
And the outsiders tried to push him to the point he utterly lost his mind, but still inherently refused to abide by their demands?
So instead, they tried to get around him constantly ending his existenxe by putting his memories and essence into a godly being that was just as determined to _not_ end as Van Gogh was to end his existence?
I love that Shuten changed himself into a woman for the sole reason to mess with Kintoki, also that Shuten could also be both because portrayed as female a lot, but mainly the first
I absolutely love Kagetora for the reasons you covered. I didnt know anything about it until she came to the game, and then saw people talking about it, and it's brilliant. I also love Artoria and Musashi for being similarly well explained. My favorite that you didnt cover is Nobunaga, because I love how she can be a little comedy gremlin waifu and yet still live up to her Demon King moniker, at least from what I've seen of Redline.
I also love Nobunaga for that as they used the fact that the Oda clan had alot of revolutions and almost civil wars around Owari as most clan members didn't wanted Nobunaga to rule wich could be interpreted as Nobunaga being originally a female
@Niccogamer01 oh that's cool. I didn't know about that.
@@jedimike7622 yeah but another reason could be the Light Novel Oda Nobuna no yabou wich had an anime but never a second season yet i still wonder wich came out first.
Fate Nobbu design or Oda Nobuna no yabou novel
I came here to see if he covered that
the "Real deal Nobunaga"(male) appearing is still one of the funniest gag in Fate
We also have that "Too ashamed to be beaten by a woman king/emperor/hero that they documented them as male" thing
Yeah but that’s so much of a nonsense idea. We have historically powerful queens and empresses that weren’t falsely documented so making so many of these women in beat with the excuse that they were falsely documented, just seems lazy. Also boiling down all of these inaccuracies just to sexism makes this feel so much more fake.
@@yumin_pluto558 I wouldn't necessarily label it as "nonsense" - far stranger things have happened in history, after all - moreso than I would label it unlikely. History tends to document things from the victor's point of view, and tends to more completely paint the picture of that side.
you mean queen/empress
@zeehero7280 King Arthur and Emperor Nero?
@ArceusShaymin I don't know that I agree fully, but overall yeah. The Romans were the losers and they are also the biggest source on "barbarians".
I really liked Oda Nobunaga’s genderbend in Fate. Though it wasn’t really highlighted, it’s still pretty interesting for me. It somewhat added more depth into her character. Her backstory as a bold and unconventional leader clashes with the rigid expectations of her time, where being a woman could have potentially doomed her ambitions. The Oda clan’s struggles with succession would also have been worse, as her position as heir would likely have been dismissed outright (Or she would have been married off to another clan)
Nobunaga is one of that strange case where being male or female won't affect her characterization much. It's all just Nobu being... Nobbu.
Granted, GudaGuda Nobu (they one we got) isn't exactly the same version as the PHH one. Best way to explain Nobu is with their genre savviness.
R 0
Funny enough, Nero and Artoria resembling each other could be seen as a nod to theories about the historical Arthur possibly being Roman.
Also there is that story about Nero marrying a man, with Nero himself being the bride.
I liked the Van Gogh one. It's both a genderbend and not a genderbend at the same time. The idea of a being that is a amalgamation of a nymph body, an artist memories and an eldritch horror powers really interesting.
I'll call this *"the Pendragon theorem"*
One that isn’t talked about much is Pollux. The reason was genderbent was because the people who voice the Dioscuri are twins and one of them is a female, so the developers simply just followed that.
That's the doylian (real world perspective) explanation, but would be nice to know about the Watsonian one (the reason in universe).
For example, Artoria's Watsonian explanation is that a woman wouldn't be able to rule so she hid her gender. Artoria's Doylian explanation is that they wanted the MC to be a guy so they shifted Arthur into a woman to keep the romance option.
The thing is, it was actually 4 kids. 2 boys and 2 girls. One of each child of Zeus and the other 2 mortals. The girls were Helen of Troy and Clytemnestra. I don't know if there is a way to connect FGO Pollux to her sisters (mainly Helen of Troy being the child of Zeus) or if they could rewrite it as 3 girls and a single boy.
@saxor96 the in universe reason is that its just how it is and you are thinking too hard about it.
@@jonathangoodwin5609 That is hardly ever the reason in Fate. The 'don't think about it' of this franchise is 'so convoluted is better to avoid it'.
@@yubalesquer8495 maybe the 2 mortal child fuse into Casto, and him being an avenger is because of his sister's influence. And similarly, Pollux now has the appearance of Helen.
I really like Jack The Ripper’s story of essentially being a wrath born of botched abortions taking the form of being a little girl and then exercised by a mage, as the real Jack The Ripper was never caught, so no one knows who they were or why the killings stopped. This narratives makes complete sense of that, and fits within the Nasuverse. I wish her ascensions were less revealing though.
Another character I want to highlight is Fran, you don’t have to change much to the story to make it work. Plus, she’s too cute for me not to love.
Then there False Jack, they are the collection of rumor about Jack the Ripper taken form
I wish her ascensions were more revealing* there fixed it for you
She's one of the possible candidates for the real identity of Jack the Ripper, but she's not THE 100% confirmed Jack the Ripper. It's not exactly a genderbend either if one can't know the real identity of the culprit in the first place.
@@jheicobguzman6132Her design is pretty badass actually
@@jheicobguzman6132 this guy right here officer
I would say my favorite is Ushiwakamaru. No real reason for the genderbend but she is my favorite tomboy who has saved my ass in the early game of FGO before I had more powerful single target unites.
I heard he's trans. Is it true😅
@@affixrey419 Her profile in the game says she/her and doesn't seem to suggest that she's ever been anything but a woman. But if that's what someone wants to have as their headcanon I won't yuck someone else's yum.
@@affixrey419 Nope
@@affixrey419In theater, Yoshitsune always played by female. That's the reason. Quanzang also played by female in Chinese theater
@@affixrey419 nah, no way, he would get humiliated for that, and executed. If he somehow managed to trans himself in the first place.
in fgo logic, he could be(because of magic) but there's no way to prove that.
If the historical male Musashi ever gets added to FGO, I wonder what his reaction will be to his female alternate-universe counterpart.
Sadly [Data Lost] is Data Lost.
Didn't they have a 1 on 1 in a shimousa Chapter??
He won't meet her sadly, she's [Data Lost] ATM and we still have that wound to be healed
Van Gogh is also a neat genderbent
Adorable eldritch horror 😊
My baby girl-boy uwu
Missed one of the best in the form of Hokusai and Bakin, the way Hokusai made his art actually involved many hands so even when his daughter took over she also worked under his name so she gets to be summoned as Hokusai as well, Bakin made hakkenden when he was old, so his daughter in law was actually the one writing it while he dictated, since servants have to be summoned on their prime and Bakin's prime as a writer could be argued was while writing Hakkenden, is his daughter in law who gets summoned instead because she is actually young during that time and since she wrote it she gets the right to be summoned as Bakin as well, it's genius.
As someone who aspires to make his own story I love the concept of taking inspiration from something but completely turning it on its head and making it your own fate has always been one of my favorite anime’s for that an anime that made women look and feel strong without it being too much
But it is too much, its taking a man's merit and giving them to a female character instead of finding proper ones, its very core is a mistake in that aspect
One od my favorites examples is also Kagetora as it is actually historically accurate and i once found a guy in twitter who wrote an article about it too and explained it logically with things like how Echigo had just too much civil wars and complains about Kagetora even for that time or how she was allowed on the temple where only woman were allowed to go in or how his body was never found and was moved alot from place to place like it's clan didn't wanted anyone to find out the truth.
Also i believe that one of the reasons Sugitani senjubo and Nobunaga are also females could be linked to the novel "Oda Nobuna No Yabou" where in it Nobunaga is also a woman alongside most retainers, Daymio and important figures so since Fate does takes some inspiration from other franchises to make the characters it could be possible they used it as a reference.
There's also an anime with the same name tho it never got a season 2
@@Niccogamer01 Nobunaga is also a female in Sengoku Collection. There are a lot of Japanese medias that gender bends unsurprisingly . Fate happens to be the most well known.
wait how come there's a novel that portrays Nobunaga as a girl?
@@JaimeNM137 it was a japanese light novel basically the before a manga is made like a book but in japan it's a novel, never knew if it ever ended but i loved the anime and my question still stands of wich was first.
Nobunaga from Fate/Type redline being made a female or the novel Nobunaga being a female. Wich one came out first?
Rikyu's reasoning is also pretty neat. Nice vid!
One of my favorites is Jaques de Molay, there's a good reason for genderbent Molay to exist, and to be fair, she is not really the real Molay, no, he exists (just not in mobile fgo), she is in a similar situation as Jeanne Alter, a pretty much completelly made up heoric spirit, just by an outer god instead of a creep.
That's the worst case of all.
@@icyhugs not really, the original jaques de molay died but this lovecraft eldricht horror possessed his body changing the gender too, yes, it have almost every single memory but in essence, is not the same person / entity
Sanzou is a character frequently genderbent, so her being a woman isn't that unusual
I like the theory given about Dobrynyan that it's actually not the bogatyr himself, but his wife being summoned. That does not explain the existence of catgirls during the era of Rus', but I think it's a fun and unique explanation nonetheless
Dobry----nyan
Nyan
@@FlynnMegaTensei Yep, they literally made her a catgirl because of a pun.
Honestly she doesn't even work as the wife either, mainly because she was explicitly mentioned as a giant in his myth. They could've taken a way better approach in this tbh.
Thats.... That's not a theory. At the end of the story she shows up in, its almost blatantly stated. Like, its not even subtle.
Turn boring/ugly looking historical figures into hot waifus. XD
You are correct except original nobunaga used to be such a dilf 😭
The waifus are infinitely less cool
They ruined Attila the Hun@@somersaultinggiraffe1901
You are everything that is wrong with this fandom
I Know i meant to defend Nasu's writing
but Answer IS : Because Waifu Works( ask fgo staffs)
And prototype has the typical male King Arthur but they were told the idea wouldn't sell, and that's the reason for the gender-flip in Stay Night.
The Drake angle was an actual rumor from the time; that Elizabeth impersonated him for a voyage so as to see the world.
Gonna mention a few things;
Nero Claudius in FGO is a woman because it is well documented that he was a party goer and in one such instance dressed up in bridal dress and married (pretended to?) a nearby participant just to get a rise out of the people watching. You thought the Bridal dress nero was just fan-service but it actually has historical significance. Considering the last Empress of Nero was also a eunuch that he dressed up as his recently 'deceased' wife it likely wasn't the strangest thing he did. In Fate/Extra we also find out that Nero is not just Nero but also a representative for the whore of Babylon likely due to his eccentricities and extremely debaucherous life (it is said that prostitutes lined the streets where the real life Nero lived). I think Nero in Fate wearing skimpy clothing actually is relevant to her character. I imagine that Fate/Extra was playing with the idea of Nero being a man whore in life and thus attached the whore of babylon idea to the character because of this.
I think the Francis Drake situation might be referencing an event that occurred in 1581 in which Queen Elizabeth boarded the Golden Hind in order to knight Francis Drake. In Fate/Extra I believe the implication was that during this visit the two swapped places or she sent back a double and traveled with Drake for a time.
It was funny learning about Genderbenting Da Vinci the first time i saw her, because years before that i was having a History of art class with a teacher, and she started talking about how some people actually thought thst Mona Lisa was Da Vinci's ideal self. How he wanted to look like... Basically that he might have had ideas of wanting to be a gorgeous woman.
And then, many years later, Fate does this. It was quite the Whiplash flashback i had to that class lol
I think the genderbends ties back to Servant Summoning. That is to say some servants fully utilize the flawed summonings, Anderson and Don Quixote believing their peaks were at their physically weakest. Da Vinci believing the Monalisa was important to him or Salonne being the villain. But you get some flimsey afterthought excuses like Altera and Raikou and some outright meta jokes like Pollux, Bunyon, and Nero and as bad as some of them are giving any watsonian explanation to them would take away the last shred of value to some of their designs
Okita reasoning would be great: if She wasnt introduced duringn a gudaguda event .
AN event that even in-universe they mention Being Just stupidly nosensical
actually Koha ace. Okita had been around since the gag manga series with the tsukihime characters being the servant of Kohaku. most of the Gudaguda cast come from Koha ace.
@@MokoES aaaaand how much 4th wall breaking there is in the Koha Ace? or Looneys toons shennanigans?
@@Zankyo137 there is no wall they removed it. just look at the beginning section of carnival phantasm Hibichika special. They made an animated section for Koha ace judge it for yourself.
@@MokoES Even before that. They were just gag characters commenting on type moon news in a comical manner within that magazine (Koha Ace is a magazine, the gag manga story was an story made after her debut). Her only reason for existing back then was to say "Hey, we got a new Heroic Spirit" only for it to be a Saberface.
She's the punchline of a very old joke.
The real reason okita and nobu is genderbent cause they're made to resemble kohaku (okita) and akiha (nobu) in gag manga. Red hair nobu is a reference to akiha. Then they give them another reason after they're implemented in fgo.
I like the character, but the reason to gender flip them is flimsy:
Ushwakamaru, Jing Ke, Okita Souji (just being effeminate handsome isn't enough, or the Prince of LanLing would would also be female), Nero, Gareth (unlike Artoria not much thought given to the implications), Pollux (though the relationship with her brother and thus his protective streak towards the stronger sister is something), Xu Fu.
Does it even count as gender flip?:
Ganesha/Jinkao Carigiri (just a vessel and Ganesha just grants Jinako some power), Ibaraki Douji (if that counts as genderflip at all, since some versions of the tale have her being the female mate of Shuten Douji; but even if it counts as genderflip the connection to Watanabe no Tsuna and his almost girlfriend is well executed and makes only sense in this constellation), Kama (it is just vessel, but one that makes sense to pick; we even have seen male versions), Van Gogh (Clythie, 'nuff said), Kiichi Hougen (shapechanging Tengu, only appears female now), Mysterious Ranmaru X (just the strongest Ranmaru of Planet Ranmaru, not historical male Ranmaru; their gender is not even constant it seems), Dobrynya Nikitich (it probably is just his wife Nastasia taking his place, even more forcefully than Artemis did to Orion), Manannán mac Lir (it is just vessel and the god is male, but has not problem of utilizing the female vessel for more femineity than the original owner), Super Bunyan (it is just trap by trickster god in a delicate balance of non-awareness ...), Sancho (in Don Quixote) (the majority of the side characters that are not Sancheo Panza accumulated in her are female: Rosinante the horse, Dulcinea the fictional princess, Antonia his niece, Teresa Sancho's wife, Sanchica Sancho's daughter, Altisidora and the Duchess who prank Don Quixote by playing to his delusions, the innkeeper's daighter who pranks Don Quixote abut also loves the chivalric romances he reads), Sen no Rikyu (the body is mostly Koma-hime and they act together), Huyan Zhuo (it is the Empousa part that requires them to be female), Tenochtitlan (the city has no gender in traditional sense, the (male) gods are just associated as patron deities), Kashin Koji (the body is just puppet and they had male bodies at other points in the past; their personality is eroded and they react according to the identity they are reminding the person they talk to of; they don't even know the gender they started with), Yamato Takeru (gender ambiguous, not necessarily flipped), Azumi no Isora (Hibiki & Chikagi) (technically it is a female and a normally female appearing being acting as shrine maidens or later a vessel for a male god).
At least there is a lore reason: Francis Drake, Shuten Douji (Shapechanging abilities), Xuanzang Sanzang (it is almost a tradition to have the Tripitaka being portrait by or as a woman), Minamoto no Raikou (Ushi-Gozen being her other side, and that entity being often female), Paul Bunyan (Udon dough born, not quite "the" Paul Bunyan), Katou Danzou (identity secret as ninja + being a doll to begin with), Altera (a big can of worms, given the Sefar business), Ibuki Douji (natural result of doing to Shuten Douji; relevant only for Servant personality [gyaru antics]), Jacques de Molay (Foreigner vessels to Mythos deities are always female; "seduction" angle, we have seen the male version).
At least they took some care to thing about the implications:
Artoria, Oda Nobunaga, Frankenstein's Monster, Shuten Douji (Shapechanging abilities; I like how it changed the dynamic with Kintoki), Sima Yi (natural result from Zhuge Liang being in Waver, relationship of Servants and of vessels).
I think the reason for the gender flip is really smart:
Taira no Kakakyou (follows naturally from Usiwakamaru's gender, being an inhabitable "grudge" makes having various bodies makes sense), Leonardo DaVinci, Mordred (natural consequence of Artoria being female and the change to special homunculus), Quetzalcoatl (it is just a vessel, and even without Servant status, for the Malla derived Mesoamerican gods it is just a vessel ...), Jaguar Man (Taiga + it being a class of being to Olmecs, the aspect of the Jaguar being the Nahual of Tezcatlipoca, so they have to fit her ...), Miyamoto Musashi (other world + they did think about the implications for her life story ...), Nezha (not only are there versions before FGO where Nezha's new body is female, they also gave her that trait of being proud of the body they were given, as shown with the way they handle the pirate who makes advances to her in Salem ...), Uesugi Kenshin/Nagao Kagetora (all already mentioned in the video), Vritra (shapechanging dragon; parallels to Tiamat due to Chaoskampf motive etc.), Kyokutei Bakin (unlike Hokusai where the father-daughter teams has mostly separate bodies, here the body the author who got blind in his old age is always that of the daughter in-law who acted as his writing hand a secretary in these times), Sugitani Zenjūbou (they were male and did only ask for a new face, not a new body ... then they woke up as female after the procedure was done by Kashin Koji), Saika Magoichi (that name is a title, we know of at least 3 Saika Ikki leaders assuming it).
Nero is genderbent because in the Book of Revelations the Whore of Babylon specifically referred to Rome under Nero's rule. And the Beast's seven heads and ten crowns being the seven hills of Rome with its ten emperors. Nasu just made the whole thing a lot more literal.
@@cheesepuffsthings I would rather argue because they wanted to gender flip Nero to make a misdirection they had the chance to conflate the Whore of Babylon with the Beast of 666. The later is most commonly interpreted as Nero (666 which numerologically is usually נרון קסר, NronQsr, a Hebrew way of writing Neron Kaisar (the Greek version of writing Emperor Nero). NRVNQSR is just transliterating the ו waw with a v instead of a w, which is perfectly valid as w is the transliteration in English for historical reasons, but the pronunciation is closer to v in Modern Hebrew. But in this case the waw is just a ḥolam male, it is meant as stand in for the diacritic Niqqud sign that would denote the o in Ner_o_n .], but the former was in the interpretations not the emperor, but the former is more often seen as an embodiment of Rome as power, not a specific emperor. A female Nero made it possible to have her being both, the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns/crowns and the whore riding on it. Which also gave us the whole "Rider Nero" angle and allusions to her avoiding that class, because of the Beast connection.
@@jkosch Huh, now it is *I* who is learning something today.
Ushiwakamaru and Quanzang always played by female in asia theater that the reason
@@derbyblade9572 I knew that about Xuanzang. Didn't know it was also a tradition for Ushiwakamaru.
I just love it how during the first stages of the Fate/ Stay Night visual novel development, it all started with a nonchalant remark that went along the lines of, "I dunno, why don't you make Saber a girl then?"
just discovered your channel! I love your editing style and your narration is smooth. Instant sub!
Caenis just returned to her original form.
Caenis was forced to return to his previous form, yes.
@@saxor96 I do like how they use that to the story's advantage as well, with Wodime being the only person to refer to Caenis as a man
And they hate every second of it
Lmao, she just can't have a break lol
@@EMIYA53 Not in her Summer version anymore. She's starting to feel less vulnerable to being her original self again as she realises she's surrounded by genuine and loving people.
Personally, Jack the Ripper ripper from I believe fate apocrypha has good logic because for a long time we had no clue who jack was, which leaves a lot of room for creative storytelling about him
A proof that people doesn't mind about changing race , skin tone or even speicie. As long as they have the following.
1. good character design.
2. good character writing.
3. good story telling.
4. know their fanbase.
5. know how to sell the product.
6. didn't go on and insult their own customer base.
Funny that it is somehow hard to grasp concept for a whole bunch of people.
No amount of excuses is gonna cut it. It's just plain simple. Pretty girls = Gooner money.
I like my girls handsome, thank you. Put them in suits, I say!
Surprised you didn’t bring up Mother Harlot/Whore of Babylon in regards to Nero
Also I loved in one of the Remants you have the option to Flirt with Da Vinci and she just goes “Did you just flirt with your Superior Officer? Good, keep it up.”
Caenis has a very good reason for the way she is, although it's a psuedo-genderbend more than anything.
Honestly I still yearn for what if it was Proto saber instead what would the dynamic between him and Shirou be
The gex scene would be 🔥
Joke aside most likely be bros like Iskandar and Waver.
pretty sure it would be war in the kitchen, coz if i remember correctly, Proto-Arthur is really good at cooking
@nelvisea8453 if that's the case it's going to be a fight for who's the better cook
that war would be Easy win for shirou
@@nelvisea8453 You just made me imagine a cooking show with EMIYA, Shirou, and Proto-Arthur with all the Artorias being the judges.
I quite like the series interpretation of tang sanzang.
Tripitaka is referred to as a man in the original journey to the west of course, but in most stories he's put into the position of "damsel in distress" and isn't often attributed as having many, if any traditionally masculine qualities like strength or sexual prowess. Though he is noted as having quite a handsome face.
Many adaptions of journey to the west cast him as somewhat effeminate to help reinforce the image of someone who is not particularly physically strong. Some adaptations straight up cast a woman to play the part of the monk as well, so sanzang appearing as a woman in fgo wouldn't even be the first genderbend of the character.
Her using the powers of her desciples also strikes me personally as maybe a call to the character's reputation of being the damsel in distress from the book; getting kidnapped by demons so many times sounds pretty annoying. And though sanzang is a monk at heart, given all the times sun wukong came to the rescue, i don't find it hard to think perhaps some of his techniques were observed and learned so she could have some of her own defense against the forces willing to eat her.
Same for the other disciples.
Part of me is a little disappointed that the designer either wasn't willing or wasn't able to make a bald/shaved hairstyle work with her appearance, but I do appreciate that she's a brunette.
What find interesting regarding this topic is no one talks about the why they did the whole genderbent thing in the first place.
Before shirou and arthoria. The main character is supposed to be ayaka and Arthur. When kinoko nasu is writing this idea. He got no confidence, he thought that his story was overdone and too cliche. He told takeuchi (his best friend and main artist for fate stay night/typemon). Then takeuchi said "just flipped their gender". Nasu thought this was horrible idea and thought takeuchi was just joking. But takeuchi was serious. So nasu try it and he thought it's actually brilliant. When you thought of female king Arthur at that time. Who would come to mind? No one right😂. That's it. Sorry for my bad English
Hokusai’s pretty clever
Hokusai doesn't fit into gender flip category, since he never switched gender. At best he fused with a female but that's it.
Isn't Hokusai the little octopus and it's his daughter?
IDK I'm not that knowledgeable when it comes to Nasuverse
Though to be honest, I wished they could have said that’s she’s one of Musashi’s adopted children and ended up taking the family name in honor of him.
West: "you're just sexist for not liking a genderbended character"
Me: "emperor nero, thou shalt I serve?"
Fate, where historical male figure turned woman and you can’t help but love them and the appealing of their beauty.
It seems people doesn't know about okita and nobu real reason to be genderbent.
The real reason okita and nobu is genderbent cause they're made to resemble kohaku (okita) and akiha (nobu) in gag manga. Red hair nobu is a reference to akiha. Then after that they give them another reason when they're implemented in fgo.
The number 1 reason. Because Waifu. LMAO
As a veteran fgo player, I think the first genderbend that put me off was Da Vinci. Reason being, Da Vinci is well known to be a man as well as he has a real portrait if I remember correctly and I feel like twisting the history like that is a big stretch even for Type-Moon standards. I believe the reason why he appeared in the body of Mona Lisa is because he sought beauty or something? Not really sure since it's been a while, and doesn't really bother me anymore.
As you play FGO you just stop questioning the reasons lol. Xu Fu is a loli that simps for Yu Meirin? sure that may as well happen. In truth, Xu Fu is a dude.
The most genderbend that I didn't like comes from Apocrypha. Jack the ripper somehow is a loli, I think It was explained why but I stopped bothering. There's also Astolfo which isn't a genderbend but a trap. Then you really really really just stop questioning lmao. I love Mordred though, she's cool.
The best reason for me though, is that parallel universes. Arthur is a woman and there really exist a male Arthur. That broadens the horizon of how much they can twist hystorical figures because if Male Arthur exist means every heroic spirit has a version that reflects our real world history. Parallel universes in type-moon.
Which means we got stuck with the boring side of history, without magic and almost all dudes historical figures.
Nero, I think it can be justified because she is related to the Whore of Babylon and that is demonstrated with her Beast version.
Francis Drake is more difficult to find an explanation but I think it must be related to the version of Drake that we saw in Agartha that was a fusion with the character of Princess Dahut, I really didn't know that story that she was actually Queen Isabel taking her role, where did she come from?
I think drake's genderbend is not that bad, the idea that the real francis drake is still a man and that fate's drake is Elizabeth the first and she is treated as a captain because of the respect the sailors had for her is quite fine in my book
Caenis. :-) Enough said. Its literaly in their legend
Da Vinci definitely has my favourite logic behind Artoria. Good discussion points all around.👍👍👍 Also the Anime footage in your video looks horrendous.
1:09 Hot Damn she looks good in a suit.
"You'll find most historic accounts of famous people veered to depict them as 30-something-year-old white men." - Saber of UBW Abridged by Project Mouthwash
i recall in a character analysis is that among the Shinsengumi, Okita was among, if not the only member, who did not get a photograph portrait. So while written as a man, we have no photo to actually compare their face allowing artist some liberty.
What i like to imagine is, If Musashi from FGO meet Musashi from Vagabond she just mostly Love him lol
Davinci seems like a guy who, if he could turn into a woman with magic, probably would at least for a while, for the experience to grant him inspiration for art/inventions.
The design of Neros "revealing" dress can be somewhat explained. In many stories about the historical Nero it is stated, that he showed and lived his sexuality as he pleased. So giving a genderbend version of him a look through skirt etc can be a way to incorporate this characteristic of Nero himself. But this does not explain the genderbend in itself ...
A similiar thing can be said about Astolfo. The fact that this character in fate looks so female can be explained. The actors of Astolfo in the theater plays were females most of the time. So I can see why in fate astolfo looked so feminine.
Now that is interesting. I always thought Astolfo looks the way he does because he was depicted as a very handsome man, and the fact that his lore mentions he's literally lost his healthy mind most of the time
Absolutely. But I think that female actors were chosen for theaters to let him look more handsome.
I did not understood at first about this, but my older brother told me its the nasu verse, thats why when Arthur Pendragon came along and portrayed as from another world it made me understood thats the IRL Arthur Pendragon.
The best one is Hokusai because the father-daughter duo is trying to scam you thinking she's Hokusai when she's actually his daughter.
Da Vinci is my favorite not only because of him being his Mona Lisa.... Because I love foreheads too.
If i remember correctly, nobu also fall in a similiar category as musashi, like there is a male nobunaga, we know that, and we also know that he is canoniclly more powerfull than female nobu, a fact she isnt to thrilled about. Besides she is supposed to be a bit of a gag character to and yeah.
If Saber would have been created today, a good chunk of western anime fans will repudiate her as "Western political correctnes" influencing Japan.
Also apparently it’s possible that Artoria could shape shift since her/ his father could shape shift. So it’s possible she has this power too
There's some belief now that DaVinci was on some level Transgender. If you overlap their acknowledged self portraits and the Mona Lisa while removing facial hair they match up almost perfectly so alot of people now believe the Mona Lisa was secretly a self-portrait which makes the DaVinci Genderbend even better! As for a Genderbend that wasn't mentioned in this video I wanna mention Sanzang! Apparently at some point the role in old Journey To The West Plays for the stage a woman ended up with the role and she so perfectly personified the role that it became a tradition to cast a woman for the role of Sanzang so her being genderbent circles back around to the fact that they've been gender bending them for years even before FGO!
Just Remember Guys, Artoria was turned into a woman cuz the OG Fate was an Eroge and having a SwordFight with the OG Arthur was not a very good idea due to their target audience, so a bunch of Hony people made not just one of the best Genderbends but also a Female character that represents what an Strong woman is WAY BETTER than anything that Hollywood has made on the last 10 years
Also the picture of Okita that we have right now is not THE Okita. That’s just a stand in. The jury is still out there
Mordred, because I love Mordred and it makes sense, since both her parents are women XD
2:51 I have an answer for this. She's Roman
As for Drake, there have been depictions of pirate women who show off more chest like in the case of Mary Read and Anne Bonny
that would work if it wasnt the case for 400 other examples
da vinci's case is weird as she is/isn't da vinci anymore.
the painter molded this da vinci from his mona lisa physical paint, He gave her his memories and essence, his original body disappearing in the process, but this girl is autonomous from that moment, what's more, after the "death" of this Mona Lisa, another new Da Vinci awakens in the body of a little girl with a face of a younger monalisa. This new Da Vinci is another automata but modeled from the body of another work that the artist did in life, the "Gran Cavallo", who also shares the memories not only of the painter but of the previous Mona Lisa, implying that there are more and new Da Vinci's ready to wake up in case another one falls in battle and all of them are automatic models of his works of art.
This way we can understand that each da vinci is a different being that shares memories of their previous life, like a reincarnation, ... since the trans idea does not apply if they are new bodies and not just a body modification as in the loli version because monalisa was physically eliminated.
I didn't know the full reasoning behind Jack the Ripper as a loli for a good while. When I first saw it, I thought it was just the character designer daring the audience to prove that she wasn't, and I would have been okay with that.
Personally, I like Nezha’s genderbend even if she’s too damn underpowered in the game. Nezha was a guy but due to his appearance people usually mistook him for a girl and sounded like one too (heck there is even some masculinity in her voice line despite the robot like accent) at least until he got older.
Personally I still think Caenis holds the rank of best gender-bender in FGO. It's literally in their myth. A woman turned into a man. Then FGO turns them BACK INTO a woman because of Poseidon.
Do Servants need to be 100% rooted in fact to manifest how they are perceived? I doubt. Simply the chance a servant can be perceived as female allows them to be summoned that wau
Vlad is purely a vampire cause of the fact how well known him being the inspiration for Dracula is
Perception is as much reality as literal reality
Now you mention it, they indeed hot and adorable. Shht, be quiet Nezha and Kagetora, you the winner in my heart.
"Waifu good"
Anything else is dialectic.
You're way too overthinking on this one, Nasu has always been a degenerate, even during the Kagetsu Tohya days lmao.
Spain mentioned yeah
How about Raikou ?
In Samurai remnant musashis gender bend is touched on a bit more, where she claims to be from an alternative time line, where she just happened to be born a woman
@@FenexDragonis We basically already knew that in FGO. We get more info on the "male Musashi" than the female one.
Genderbend is the best not gonna lie
Caenis has an genderbending that isn't which is an reference to her myth in Greek mythology that if I'm not mistaken is about an man who at some point turns into a woman and also caenis is part of the argonauts in case anyone didn't knew
Another genderbent which is kinda an genderbent is the case for chevalier d'eon where it is unclear which gender is since it was an guy who changed his gender some times until he settled on one gender, in other words it is unclear which gender he is in when summoned, it can be an male chevalier d'eon or an female chevalier d'eon
Wasn't caenis assaulted by a water god and thus made some wish to be a man out of spite?
Edit: Rechecked and It was poseidon who did it AND turned her into a man so no one else could, Wild. She even brought it up in reference to ophelia(The whole walking shoeless on a beach thing which makes sense now)
@@TahjPollock thx for the correction, but the point that caenis is an genderbent kinda still stands
Thats the roman version the greek one was an exchange sec for becoming a man and poseidon agreed@@TahjPollock
@durrangodsgrief6503 i always forget there's like multiple different versions of the mythos like medusa having multiple origins
Almost all reasons are good
Until you hear raikou's excuse being the most dumb thing in writing history i still love her though
Jack the Ripper is a freaking twist that put every other twist in gacha games ever exist looks like kid's writing. Read up on the Assassin's Jack the Ripper for Nasuverse.
Yeah, I know both of them. This is just my personal opinion, but I freaking hate her kid design, lol. For me, it would’ve been fine if it were a boy and not overly sexualized. But yeah, I agree with you, both their concepts are really cool.
One genderbend I kinds disliked was Nobunaga, mostly because I know the figure mostly from games, the design could have gone to Oichi instead.
One I don't want to see genderbend is Guan Yu, even though I like koihime musou and the female Guan Yu is one of my favoritesvin the series.
Also I don't belive they have a female historical figure be male in fate(mostly because off$$$ reasons), Bringing koihime musou again they actually did did with Diaochan of people.
with Diaochan is harder to make her as "the most charming one" in the story if she stay female while almost everyone else also female.
beside.... look at those packs..
They gender bent Saber because the game was originally an eroge
Come on, we know that the franchise starts with eroge.
That's a stretch. Yeah it's considered eroge. But if 2 hours of s3 x that you can skip ruin the 60 hours of story. That's on you. With that logic I can say any Hollywood movies with 1 minutes of s3 x is born movie
it works because waifu
Yeah...
I always felt like Fate's Nero should've been.. well, trans. In a way similar to what they would do with Di Vinci. As in, whatever body they may have possessed in historic reality, Nero's ideal self in their own mind was that petite feminine form were familiar with -- one inspired by their peculiar interpretation of Venus.
Not only would this represent Nero's ability to combine their exceptional mental strength with their vivid capacity for self-delusion to change the very nature of their Saint Graph, but could be seen as a subconscious method of estranging themselves from their dark personal history. Nero, recorded into history as a mad villainous tyrant, is now this loveable short-stack goofball filled with humanistic optimism in the face of Fate/Extra setting's utter bleakness through sheer force of will.
That would make a lot more sense, and be a lot more fun. I’m going to headcannon that now
Whatever you say 🙄
@@epictoe7179 What's so wrong about a hypothetical like this?
@@epictoe7179 What's so wrong about what they said?
Caenis\caeneus is also an interesting case
Ya know...I love your videos, but it's also clear you don’t always do all the research you should.
Could you let me know what I might be missing in this video? Am I not talking about enough Servants, or are there any inaccuracies I should address?
@@mr.skeptic Honestly I have no clue. The only thing I could think is lacking is Okita, because her reasons for being genderbend are more "revised" rather than the original ones. You explained well what is going on with the rest of characters talked about in this video.
There is fanart about the female cast and male cast got genderbend, while drake become those handsome guy with abs as replace of boobs, nero.... well not so well to me.
I say it's stupid
1. Da Vinci or Dubbinci has the best excuse by far.
2. Imo Jeanne and Popess Johanna should also be genderbent.
... You mean, like, making both Jeanne and Johanna guys?
That's... honestly weird. Johanna's unique thing is to be the ONLY Poppess. Making her male would basically make her one thing making her famous disappear. Jeanne would be strange but not like she didn't dress as a boy in real history sometimes.
I was badly influenced all these years, that's why I'm so disappointed with the new years 2025 JP servant.... No waifu, no game. There's a reason I don't have Oberon yet, too ugly to waste precious SQ 🤣
It's good, if they didn't do it too much, but at this point, the way I see it they just making excuse to make many waifu, because if they want to be Historically/mythologicaly accurate, that's kind of hard.
Not that they are accurate tho, specially around Britain's, it's so much mess imo.
Also, people recognize it as FGO rather than Nasuverse or Fateverse kind of showing that this Series rely too heavily on this Game. Kind of bothering me that there's no new Fate series recently.
Top one and only reason to make more money ez ez, i would do the same
I don't mind with trans character but why they make Thomas Edison as Fury?
As long as it isn't part of their lore like Caenis, then it's just a bad excuse to sell more waifus.