Harley Dealers Are Sell Outs! But Are They? - A Different Perspective - Kevin Baxter Baxters Garage
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- Опубліковано 3 чер 2024
- If you have ever been frustrated because your chosen dealership will not work on your 10 year old bike? This video may offer you a different perspective.
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I agree, its the same issue at car dealerships. It's a shame they no longer offer a competative wage to get technicians to stay and pass the knowledge on. The shop rate continues to go up and up but tech pay says the same. Motorcycles and and cars get more and more technical and there has been no adjustment to pay. Most techs end up starting their own shop or switching trades. (I'm 10 year auto tech, now working in IT Support)
😢well Kevin, I'm just a little bit different in my opinion on this issue. As a 44 year master motorcycle mech/tech. I've work as a master tech at the big 3. Most of the points you make are valid, but I differ on the nuance's. These should have been put out by Harley as a tsb, or technical service bulletin. This info was and is extremely valuable. It should have all been saved in a binder for any tech to pull out and check. I'm at an independent shop in Detroit. We work on all years and models. When I encounter a problem bike, that's the first thing I go for. I save all the instruction sheets for anything I put on a person's bike, it's like a bible and it goes into that bike's file. I just finished a complete rebuild on an 03 road glide anniversary edition. The only parts used were the frame trans and wiring. Engine, tins, rear drive etc. His file is now a half inch thick. As a technician we owe it to ourselves and our customers to stay up to date on all concerns and how to remedy them. Harley Davidson charges a lot for their bikes. They should also stay relevant when it comes to service and repairs. Just my opinion.
The sad part is. You spend over 30 grand plus mods to your bike then Harley says get lost if your bike is over 10 years old. That’s Harley’s way of trying to get you to upgrade to a new one. It’s all bull shit.
This is why people are refusing to take there bike back to a dealership.I support the small shop as much as possible, and, refer back to a dealer at last resort.
The way I look at it, as a 55 year old life long bike nut, is thatbif you own it, you should know how to strip and build it, diagnose it, service andvrepair it, its called love and devotion.
I've wanted a shovel head for ever, finally got one, keeping it till im dead, I'm now enjoying loving learning everything I need to know to keep it going.
Great rant Kevin !
I've owned an independent Harley shop for 30 yrs. We work on 1986 bikes and newer, and I will tell you I understand why dealers don't want to service older bikes. MANY, MANY older bikes have been molested mechanically, electrically, not maintained by their owners, left outside to corrode (cars are built to be left outside in the elements, Harleys are not), repaired through the years by unqualified people ( I won't even call them "mechanics"), or repaired as if located in Bolivia where you have to fabricate the most basic parts. I wouldn't trust some of these people to repair a bicycle.
The level of frustration when working on these train wrecks is incredible. What should be a simple repair turns into an absolute nightmare sometimes, tossing out any estimate that was given to the customer, and destroying a shop's work schedule.
Rat's nests of wiring messes, rusted, corroded parts, unavailability of original parts from Harley as things get "obsoleted" way too soon are the norm.
So, when these issues rear their ugly heads, the bike might be stuck on a lift waiting God knows how long for a part, or even a callback from the owner as no one seems to pick up the phone anymore.
Yep, I understand.
I worked part-time in a motorcycle shop my friend owned over 30 years ago when I wasn't working on ships. I did 3 months on 3 months off on the ships. The shop did Harley's, Jap bikes, European and British. I agree with you. Some of the stuff we saw come was cobbed together, the wiring was insane. As a good mechanic, you recommend things that needed to be done to the customer and they're like, well, that's not what I came in for. After a point, you just throw your hands up and walk away.
@@lpd1snipe Same as when I worked on cars. Customer came in....needed brakes (metal on metal. We called them "railroad brakes"), and an A/C recharge. He said forget the brakes, fix the A/C.
When the shop rate is $110+ per hour, the mechanic should be paid $30+ per hour instead of $16.50. Then there will be enough mechanics to work on traditional Harleys.
You bring 1985 Mercedes to MB dealership they will work on it. This is REAL premium brand. 10 years is not that long for HD bike. Always enjoy your videos.
If you go to a Chevrolet dealer. Each model car has 2 or 3 different engine choices, different transmissions etc etc. They have no issue working on vehicles older than 10 years with god knows how many different trim levels, equipment choices, driveline etc. Harley doesnt change anything or very little for a decade or more. Less engine choices, less transmission choices, less trim levels etc. Not to mention bikes are a much simpler system than a full blown automobile. There is no excuse outside of trying to get you onto a newer bike
Harley-Davidson engines haven’t changed over the decades?
Amen to that
I have to disagree. The Harley dealer has no problem taking your money on a trade in or to make a sale... Harley should always fix what they manufacture.....No excuses!
My dealer in Michigan has one tech that knows everything back to at least pans, maybe further back. They also have a parts person who knows darn near as much, she is astonishly good. They have a couple more techs who know carbs and points even if they don't know all of the nuances of the older iron.
Those types of people are really valuable resources for a shop geared towards serving lifelong enthusiasts.
TEN MEASLY YEARS? Harley-Davidson constantly talks about heritage and tradition, yet doesn't require dealers to work on their own brand after just 10 years? That's INSANE! 😢
and not true I work on all year bikes at my dealership,
I remember a different Harley dealership. Back in the 80s , where they had any part you could think of. The young people just learning their bikes, would often get advice from an old mechanic. More than once I was shown the proper way to do something, no charge. I know the video was more about the shops not being able to work on older bikes. I understand your point, from shovels to twin cam, it's alot. I do most of my own work, if not an independent shop. My problem is not being able to get Harley parts from the Harley shop. Seems they are more interested in selling trinkets and coffee. Keep posting the videos. Thanks.
I still do at my dealership,we do customising (not just your bolt on stuff either ) and get the riders input as much as possible.We also supply non Harley parts when needed which is quite a lot. We do tech tips for customers and help them keep whatever year or model bike going on the road. I suppose that’s why we attained the highest customer satisfaction accolade in Europe but please don’t think all dealers are stealerships as you like to call us.
Your argument about buying a ford from a chevy dealer is not the same.. buying a used harley from a harley dealer would be equal to buying a used ford from a ford dealer... you would expect them either way to work on the vehicle but harley is the only place that won't work on their own product past a certain age. If I take my 91 ford tbird to a ford dealer for some work they will work on it..
It seems like they can’t fix 2022 models with 40k miles on it.
As a 30 year veteran, motorcycle mechanic and service manager.
Something you have to keep in mind is parts availability. Some manufacturers only go back 12 years. I can’t sit on your bike for 12 months waiting for a part to be made and shipped to me every square foot in my shop has to make money to support the shop so if I turn down your bike, it’s because I can’t afford to work on it. However, this video is correct on all other things that he was talking about. This is one subject. He left out this subject
If that dealer is selling an older bike that they won't service, how did they go through the bike and make sure there was nothing wrong with it and it's safe to sell if they don't know how to work on that bike?
And they will charge you a reconditioning fee.
No dealership ever says the pre-owned bike has been gone thru before selling it…..
its buyer beware unless you have a written guarantee or warranty that the dealership says is for that bike.
@@indianbill3123they used bikes are "harley certified"
I can see your point on this to an extent, but I was over 100 miles from home and started having an air leak in a tire, I managed to air up my tire and find a HD dealer, who turned me away for this reason. I'm not saying all dealers do this, but I was far from home and didn't know of anywhere else I could go to get this checked. They offered to sell me a tire and tube, but without getting them installed it would have been useless. I think this was taking it too far, especially for someone on a trip. I had to have a friend with a truck get a trailer to get home safely. After having it looked at, it turned out to be the valve coming loose. They could have at least looked at it to find what the issue was which turned out to be a simple fix so I wouldn't need to have a friend waste hours of their time to help me, instead of copping out saying they won't work on bikes older than 10 years old.
I disagree. Most dealerships have the techs to work on bikes at least as old as an Evo. They are telling people that they won’t work on older bikes for one simple reason. They want you to buy a new bike. Plain and simple. And to what you said about the newer techs not having the know how, I just bought my first Harley. I’m learning a lot very quickly about how to work on it to the point where I feel like I could tackle most issues myself. That being said, I’m pretty mechanically inclined. I’ve worked on all sorts of other motorcycles. The techs are learning the skills to start with. I would expect a reasonably mechanically inclined motorcycle tech to be able to work on most any bike.
My comment is from a different angle. I'm an aircraft mechanic, and right now, there is also a huge shortage of mechanics with experience. All of your 2 year schools teach enough to pass the written and O & P exams. Some are better than others. Unless you specialize in GA, most learn the big stuff while working on the heavy's. These businesses need to teach the old or heavy stuff, even if it's a specialized school. On the other hand, it is an opportunity for some specialized shop to earn some good money. Great videos, keep up the good work.
Well I have mixed thoughts about the dealerships position on not working on older Harley's however, it is because of the dealership that we are completely flooded with Harley's, more than we can handle, and because of this fact, we are able to charge a premium on our hourly rate and our technicians definitely benefit from it. Now don't get me wrong, it is not that we gouge our customers on labor with these motorcycles, one has to understand that Harley usually does not stock the parts we require on these older bikes or take 2 weeks to get from Harley, so we have to search for said parts with the distributers we represent and that takes TIME, our technicians have to do additional research on situations they may not run into everyday, and that takes TIME, and the additional issues we come across that the motorcycle may have during our evaluation and during the course of repair also takes TIME. This extra TIME takes away from the productivity of our technicians and we all know (referring to your video a couple weeks back) TIME is a precious commodity.
With all this said, yes we do work on older Harley's, we actually welcome them, however it will cost a bit more for us to work on these bikes, not because the dealership wont, but because it takes more TIME.
My only complaint with Harley is the fact that they do not stock more older OEM parts or they have expired them, hence we take the TIME and go to one of our many distributers and search the part out.
Oh and just a little bump for SWC...WE ARE ALWAYS LOOKING FOR THOSE SOLID TECHNICIANS that want to be well rewarded for their expertise.
I would slightly disagree. I worked as a tech for a car dealership, and we would work on older 90s models. Now what you said is true in that if you buy a Ninja from a Harley dealer. Then yes, I wouldn't expect them to work on it. But Harley dealers should be able to service Evo's and up. Shovel heads and older I can see them not working on them. But I'm sure it comes down to a parts supply problem mostly.
If it's a parts supply problem then wouldn't you think that would be a new opportunity for harley to make more money producing parts for and servicing older bikes.. harley keeps complaining that their profits year by year are low..
I have found that dealerships will work on whatever the techs in the shop know how to work on. If there are evo guys in the shop, they will work on them, and so on.
Bikes are not $5000 anymore and more like $30000+. I wouldn't be surprised to see ten year loans for a high dollar CVO. Only ten year support is going to backfire eventually. I hope a dealership has some experienced technicians and the service department isn't run by new graduates. Your Ford vs Chevy example doesn't make sense. Harley should be able to work on Harley. I wonder how far out Harley-Davidson will sell an ESP extended warranty, 10 years?
I agree with you to a point. However, I believe it should be based on the generation of bike not just years. For instance, there's is not much difference between a 2012 twin cam and a 2017 twin cam yet only the 17 will be worked on at some dealerships. Why is that?
I've given up taking my 1998 Road Glide to Harley dealers after being told my 18000 mi ride is too old to service due to bull shyte EPA nonsense.
When I bought my first Harley in 2007, a Sportster of course, I realized one simply could NOT own a Harley and not be a mechanic. I'm on my second and last Harley, a '12 Fat Bob because I'm a good enough mechanic to know there's no fixing a Harley. They all leave the factory with such flaws that one's money would be better spent buying a basket case and building it right from the ground up. Basically, if you don't want to/can't work on your motorcycle or fear large repair bills, DON'T buy a Harley.
Gotta disagree with you on that one. A Harley is a machine and machines need maintenance or they break. Just like any other machine. Period. Harley has the oddball lemon just like any other manufacturer, there's no getting around it when things are mass produced. Having said that, the biggest negative against reliability is the owner. Don't do scheduled maintenance and beat the crap out of it a machine will break.
While I do think dealers should do everything they can to service what they sell, I also believe they should be honest if they don't have any techs that can competently fix the older bikes. In my area there are several independent shops with good reputations and their labor rate is usually better than the dealership. I am an automotive tech and I work on my own bikes, but if I couldn't, I don't think I would want a kid right out of school learning on my bike.
My wife has a 1998 EVO that she bought new. We were on a road trip a few years back and her stator went out in Colorado. We had it towed to a Harley dealer in Salt Lake City and they jumped on it and had it fixed the next day. The service advisor warned me that the bike she was riding was not going to be able to get repairs for a lot of things at most Harley dealers anymore. Sure they could replace a Stator or a clutch, tires, brakes and so forth but if the engine lost spark or needed engine internals it would be turned away. I kind of knew this already but hearing it come out of his mouth told me that I needed to buy another bike for her for this type of duty. The bike I was riding was a "99 Road king with the MM fuel injection and he told me almost none of the dealers had anyone or the tools to diagnose that system anymore. The other problem is that most independents are taking good care of their good customers and won't take in your broken down older bike because they don't want to piss off their good customer by putting your bike in front of theirs. All of this is understandable to me. When we got home I sold my '99 and bought a '14 RK and a '17 RGS. She kept her bike and we had the engine rebuilt by our Independent that we use for repairs that I can't handle. She had nearly 100k on it when that was done. The same independent is still servicing the '99 that I sold. Thank the lord for the Independents!
The Harley Pan America is an example of new Harley technology that their technicians had no clue how to fix. So it is Harley’s issue to train their techs…whether old or new motorcycles.
9/10 "techs" at the average dealership are $10-12/hr parts changers.
I agree with you,I work on all models at our dealership and we have all the tools required to do that,I have been a tech for around 40 years so over that time obviously have come across virtually every fault there is, but there are always new ones that come up so everyday can be a school day.I have noticed over the years customer change,more and more intolerant and rude customers,most of which don't know one end of a spanner from the other but having watched a couple of you tube videos try to tell you how easy it is to fix their bike. i have personally kept thousands of bikes on the road and found faults previous mechanics attempts could not,yet when it comes to the bill time,jeez its as though you just cut their throats,well I for one am quite happy now to retire and leave it all behind to work on my own bikes, a 1970 FLH1200 a 2003 FLSTF a 2019 FLSB and an Evolution 1340 project, heres to a better life not having to deal with the daily stress.Keep on wrenching Kevin someones got to do it,always expect the unexpected.You're doing a great job and a great work ethic all the best to you.
If you bought a new car and the dealer refused to work on it 10 years later, that would be the end of the company. Harley Is 100% responsible to train mechanics to work on their machines. They choose not too. Do not give Harley a pass for this. When manufacturing facilities need machinists they train them internally, they don't make excuses. Harley needs to stop making excuses and start supporting what's left of their customer base!
Great coverage ur right. I worked for harley davidison in the 70s in memphis tn things changes etc😊
So the company that built the motorcycle, expects the owner to know how to fix it but not a dealer technician. Got it.
Also the biggest thing is liability insurance for bikes in the shop and availability of parts. A bike falls off table, it happens , and now you have insurance company is saying it's scrap and owner saying it's a collectors item
The problem in my area (mid Atlantic) is that Harley dealers higher people to work on bikes that are not Harley trained or certified. Hell, I’ve seen many “techs” that never had a paying mechanic job or training of any kind. But the dealers never admit to this practice.
The Motor Company should require dealers to have actual Harley trained technicians that can work on all years and models. It’s not that hard. Other brands of bike dealers all work on anything with the brands nameplate regardless of how old.
Just because the techs refuse to be properly educated and the dealers refuse to require proper education, doesn’t excuse the reprehensible lack of customer service. Harley is hammering the nails in its own coffin.
I listen to what you had to say. A customer who owns an older Harley, it would be reasonable for him/her to think a Harley dealerships would have the expertise to work on them. Now it comes down to when the consumer brings in the bike for repairs. I would think it would be the dealership's "responsibility" to explain the situation to the customer and point them in the right direction. However, my experience is that they don't. I've tried to get parts for an 09. They had to order from an aftermarket vendor, and it took a month to get them. I was told it would take a couple of days, not a month. As I was waiting, I did some research and found Harley (dealerships) do not like working on bikes that are ten years and older. When I went to the dealership to inquire about my parts, I asked them how long would I have to wait if I had dropped the bike off and had them order and install the parts. They look at me like deer in the headlights. I asked if they expected a customer to leave their bike and wait 30 plus days just to replace an "o" ring on a front brake caliper. They told me Harley no longer makes split calipers, They wouldn't answer me about having a customer leave a bike there that long for such an easy repair. They would rather sell a customer an aftermarket up-grade expense caliper or a new bike than to explain to the consumer how they actually operate. I had to pull the information out of them. It is my understanding that there are two schools the mechanics have to go through, and the third one by choice. The third one is more geared towards working on older models and the mechanics often don't want to go because they want to start working and or pressured by the dealership to start working ASAP. The problem is the Harley/dealerships don't explain this to the consumer. Nor do they want to point the consumer to a place that does work on older bikes. I did purchase my bike new at the dealership. I just don't have the funds to keep up with the Jones and get a new bike every handful of years. As for my parts, I ended up ordering another set through JPCycles. I got them before the dealership received the parts they order from me. Same aftermarket company/parts. So I have an extra set.
Great video. I agree with your assessment, having arrived there in reverse: I'd had my M8 bike reworked by an indy mechanic who was a wizard with Twin Cam & prior bikes. By his own admission, he had to reinstall many items in & around the primary on my bike several times. Eventually, I had to have some of the work redone by our mutual friend up North of Dayton. In this case, the original Indy mechanic wasn't a shyster (I'd seen him work absolute magic on my buddy's 2000 Springer): he just hadn't had the hours working on the latest platform bike. You're spot-on about finding someone who's spent the time working with the model year of bike, and the specific parts/components, you'd like to have repaired/installed.
It totally makes sense. I am 76 years old. My first was a 1956 triumph. I have worked car and truck and motorcycles all my life. When my son graduated from college for motorcycle 20 years ago he knew very little about carbs. Dad to the rescue.
Thanks for all your information
Moose
With all due respect, Sir, but I disagree wholeheartedly. There are enough mechanics in a Harley dealership standard size, that are in possession of the knowledge to fix at least Evo's and newer. So why is the dealership refusing to work on older bikes? Because they want volume services. 3 hole, mileage services, tires, you get the idea. Diagnosing and fixing any of those problems you described is time consuming, costs money and is not quantifiable in advance. The guy who just bought that 03 Road King comes in 2 weeks later with an oil leaking engine and is pissed. He spentt his hard earned dough on that bike and now he is being told, no, sorry, too old??? If your train of thought is the one that becomes standard, no one should buy a Harley older than 5 years. That is shattering the used market completely and it is by that killing those businesses that are dependent on servicing older bikes. In addition, it kills Harley-Davidson's argument that the price is so high because it is a money retaining investment. I think Harley needs to be extremely careful here what they do or they cut the branch they sit on. Just my .02$. love your channel and content. No hard feelings but I think you are wrong in this particular case.
Thanks for your candor. Its a perspective to offer at least, based on conversations I've had with many dealers. Regardless...I am actually happy about this. For folks like myself with extensive experience on older bikes, only creates more opportunity for us. Consider this...an oil leak on an 03 Twin Cam is a vastly different ordeal to repair than an EFI issue with Mag/Mor EFI. How many "new" dealer techs really know how to dial in a MM system? That's my point...
ok so i guess a plumber shouldnt be able to work on a water heater right? they can work on A.O smith water heater . bot not a bradford white water heater ? cause thats what you saying .. that makes no sense ..
If a dodo like me can read a service manual and do all my own work on my twin cam, then someone who went to school to be a mechanic and works on bikes for a living should be able to do the same. The bar is just getting set lower for the younger generation and we all know it. I’m 31 so I guess I’m probably part of that younger generation as far as most people reading this are concerned. I’m pretty sure I’m not some sort of genius either. Being able to have a Harley dealership work at least just a single generation back from the current generation bikes should be a completely reasonable. That being said, the indy shops will probably do a much better job for less money, so maybe this is just Harley handing off to indy shops which isn’t a bad thing.
So H-D has built & sold so many bikes with manufacturing defects over the years that it would be too hard to train anybody to fix them ?.
We love you, Kevin. Stay the course. I completely agree with your response reply. "Listening to and learning new things is a sign of intelligence "
Im old lol,the dealership i work at here in new zealand lets me work on evo's and shovels because i have been doing it all my life,mind you i do get to give older bikes a good look before i work on them
The motorcycle industry is just like the boat industry. They do things the way they do, because they can. Hobbies are expensive and most consumers expect that to be the norm. Those that can’t afford the retail side of the hobby should consider other things or get competent with wrenching and take advantage of all the older iron out there.
It’s really a great business model…for the company (and gear heads).
Your right and it’s a Rich’s man’s hobby now it’s not working class anymore
I think it would be wise for Harley Davidson to have tech training on older models . The average biker is not going to trade a bike in every 7-10 years . The business is there to support the training for one tech in a dealership. That will only benefit other techs with overall on the job training . For me personally by the time I started to add my accessories, needed improvements to make the bike my own, and pay it off why would I want to start over ? Many owners of older bikes still purchase high dollar parts at local dealerships . Independent established Harley repair shops will and have started to absorb the business . When a business quits taking care of the customer the money goes elsewhere.
I have a shop in Mustang, Oklahoma. I started working in shops in 1993, after I graduated from the Mickey Mouse Institute in Phoenix, AZ. We work on 2024 and earlier. Like total loss oil systems earlier.
I don't agree with you. When I started at the dealership 1993, not only did we work on Evos, we rebuilt Knuckleheads as well. Where did I learn to work on Knuckleheads? MMI. After a few years, I went to a custom shop. Eventually, in 1998, I found myself back in the dealership (different, bigger one). We did have a 10 year cut off. It wasn't because we didn't know how to work on earlier bikes. It was less lucrative. Older bikes have more damaged hardware, potential rigging, and surprises inside. Company policy. Most of us didn't agree with it, but what are you going to do?
They do not teach what they used to teach at MMI. I hired a kid a few years ago. Excellent grades. Couldn't do a basic service on a newer bike. No mechanical aptitude. Never should have passed him. The curriculum has changed to meet the requirements of modern dealerships, which is so very, very much less. They just need parts changers now, not critical thinkers, or machinists. I am certain I will not hire anyone from there again. Very disappointed with my old school.
The modern dealership has been very good for my business, and my old dealership has been very good to us. I am not complaining. Just sad that that's the way it is now.
Independent shops all the way. I go to the dealer for o-rings and stuff. And when there's free food, live music, and 50% off goodies.
Many of our daily products we use are the same way as Harley. Software being one of the worst offenders by stopping support. Dealers also can't stock all the different types of parts for different engine models. This also creates a whole eco system for the aftermarket world, either cheaper or upgraded parts.
As you say about a tech not having the background. That’s fine. But in that case the showroom shouldn’t sell a bike they can’t service. Here in oz if a dealer can’t service what they are selling. It’ll be an as traded vehicle or sold off to a bomb yard as we called them back then
That was an excellent assessment of the situation for H-D dealerships.
Thanks Kevin and right on point.
If it’s your brand you should work on it
ok so kevin which harley davidson motorcycle do you not work on??
Thanks Kevin, informative.
Older dealers seem to be better, not so much with car dealers buying into the Harley world.
I have a 2003 ultra 50000 miles . It has the updated chain tensioner screaming eagle with high flow oil.pump.installed new lifters took apart the rocker boxes installed rocker lockers and installed new breathes. That's all that has been done the bike runs like a top with no oil on top of the pistons no sumping I have pulled the Allen head bolt to check the only other thing it has is a ultra cool oil cooler. Just seams to me that the bike should burn some oil but does not. Also nothing in the air filter no oil no blow by ect. I know you don't respond to alot of post I get it I'm a busy guy myself. I have built a few harley engines over the years but have never seen a engine like this one. Thanks and keep up the content
Mr Baxter, you are an incredible human being , your kindness equals your skills. You are taking on all these controversial causes. For myself, i am a certified carpenter and i tried following the philosophy of teaching people about my trade ( carpentry ) , the pros and cons of every aspect of it. This drove me to a burn out and a minor depression. People get their info all over the place adapting the narrative to their situation. So now I go into a job, give my quote and my card. I don't want to hear their opinions or stories ( wife ,friends, people , TV, internet, whatever about the work i will be doing !!!! ) I want a BIG down payment and I give them a start time. Giving , giving , giving and more is very noble cause but self preservation is my motto now. I take care of myself ,my family, the people I love I'm in a much better place now and by the way their ( these customers ) are still calling me for quotes.
P.S. Sorry for the long post. A mechanical engineer/builder for Harleys and a great man is priceless. Thanks ( French dude from Canada )
I've been wrenching bikes for quite awhile, at 1st I was excited to hear no old bikes .. then I became swamped.. I dint mind mechanical work but Harley being Harley and going for the cheapest supplier they can .. it becomes hard to chase wiring issues especially on a ultra .. and if the guy stuck his hands in there ... Then you have diagnostic time .. ppl will argue the cost .. clubbers use us as an excuse for their hike not up .. I've decided to basically retire and just build / work on old bikes.. evo's & back .. shovels especially.. less wires, more mechanical designs you have to get around but I can control the quality of all the parts that go into them .. I won't even help a friend out on a newer bike .. it gets out and a bunch of people are calling trying to get their bikes in .. though I'm good with them I just don't want to deal with them due to time restraints.. I've had ppl get a diagnosis have me fix the basics to get it on the road then dog me saying how I F 'ed the bike up ... I spent a long time getting a good rep and not about to have it destroyed by a cheap mutha so I just quit wrenching all together
I worked at a Subaru dealership doing used cars. We worked on everything.
As far as a Harley dealer selling an old Harley Davidson, they need to sell a safe vehicle according to most state laws. plus the dealerships have access to all the service manuals. If you are a technician, you should be able to read and understand a manual from any year.
I was a tech at a Ford dealer. we worked on anything that came in. didn't matter. We would look it up if we didnt know. My local HD dealers been around since 1956. They have service manuals. The problem is they might not be able to get all the parts to complete the repair.
Ehhh i tried to get them to replaces rear wheel bearing and they wouldnt do it and they couldn't tell me the socket i needed either. Took a week to find it .
I completely changed dealerships who service my 2018 Heritage. So called master technician got in my face because I mentioned my tires were over pressurized. Totally over reacting. I didn’t mention he balanced my new tires horribly and under filled my transmission. Good Lord!
I had my 2016 streetglide at the local dealership couple weeks ago, having the transmission rebuilt. Half way through the job I stopped in and was talking with the shop foreman, the guy working on my bike. We got to talking and I was talking about how the newer mechanical auto primary chain tensioner works. He didn't know that there is a spring in the tensioner so that it can bounce when the chain whips. He thought I was crazy.
Then I realized I had a inexperienced, not very knowledgable person rebuilding my trans. Didnt make me feel very good. Than we were talking more.....the guy never heard of B.D.L. . Hummmm
Needless to say, I'm not happy with my new transmission. Noisy, whiney, clunky, sloppy. I don't know of that's his fault but, he sure didn't know how to tweak things if it's possible.
One thing you didn't mention is that older bikes are hard to find parts for, and a dealer doesn't want to start a job and can't finish it due to harley not having the parts available and of course they will only use HD parts, it required by law to maintain a part supply for up to 10 years this is why the number 10 came about for how old a bike can be
wrong ! my dealership will always source alternative parts where HD parts are not available
Not impressed with their work on the newer bikes either
I see it as an opportunity for the independent shops to get more work especially if they don’t have the ability to get the latest diagnostic training/ equipment like big hd dealerships with big budgets.
Very good video. I think you nailed it.
Wow man that is so true thank you for sharing that keep the videos coming
Wow I’am the first to comment.
I can see dealerships not working on some older bikes but they don’t go back enough years so it seems.
Thanks for the great videos Kevin!
The fact is the HD training offered at various tech schools is broken down by Engine type . Evo twin cam m8. What we are experiencing is simply a lean business model dictated by demographics and demand in that dealers county or license region. They can choose to hire techs for each engine generation but then it’s up to the dealership to be able to market themselves to maintain the technicians work load. Harley will realize they must decrease the brick and mortar overhead and focus on sales and repairs of their bikes if they want to survive. No car dealership carry’s tons of clothing and apparel . Turning wrenches produces profits period. Harley can sell clothing online.
As someone who has been apprenticing at a smaller shop for a year or so now, I have a newer understanding of the business. At the end of the day, the fact that dealerships won't work on older bikes, is what keeps shops like ours alive and kicking.
I haven't done much with the M8s, because most of them are still under warranty so dealerships have too deal with most of them.
I’m on a 2002 Harley, and, I can get some work done a a dealer but not all work. The dealerships don’t have all of the soft wear for diagnostics. This is my complaint, . The dealer did a update on my bike in 2002 , and, locked the ECU and no longer have soft wear to unlock it. You can’t imagine how much frustration it has caused. They should at least keep a record of the password somewhere.
I work at a Honda dealer and we can't get parts for stuff past the early 2000s for alot
Basic stuff is available but body panels and uncommon stuff isn't
Honda also recommends not working on stuff 10 years or older, we ofcourse dont follow that but some stuff just isn't repairable in a dealership setting. Whether it be parts availability or cost. We'll Install used parts with the catch of not our problem if it fails again
We also try not to get into taking in older bikes on trade due to not being able to fix them later, even it the machine is really nice, stuff just fails sue to age sometimes
I apprenticed as a mechanic many years ago but all of my friends, no matter their trade, worked on their own bikes, old or new. My bike is transport, not a toy. My newest bike of all time is a 1999 FLHRCI daily commuter that I bought from a main dealer 4 years ago, and after replacing the cam tensioner shoes as a precaution, along with the ancient tires, it has been as rock solid as any Honda I ever had. The dealer was up front in telling me, they won't touch it as it is considered a 'classic.' Fine. TBH I always considered the beauty of Harley to be the relative simplicity, general availability of parts long after the end of production, and the opportunity to learn about the bike you are riding by working on it yourself. It is part of the older model Harley experience I think, to be able to visualize the pistons, pushrods, primary chain etc. rushing about below you. If you buy an older Harley and simply don't care to begin to understand, then go to an independent, but better yet, maybe look to newer models even if it means saving a bit longer. All the bikers I grew up with though, never went back for dealer servicing. Oily hands are part of the experience. Get the manual and immerse yourself, even if, in the end, you go to the independent shop. Always good to have an understanding of your machine, no matter what. And if, like me, 'old' is what you can afford, knowing about your bike will make it as good as any new machine. Finally. If you love Harley's, you will already know all the pitfalls, right?
Kevin, why isn’t someone building / selling a new engine that uses a distributor/ points instead of a computer?
There’s no aftermarket supplier of computer modules (ECMs) for older Harleys so when that HD module dies and Harley doesn’t have a new to sell you that bike basically becomes a paperweight or parts bikes.
At this point it should be about engine type. Harley should be perfectly capable of repairing anything twin cam and newer. That means at least 20 years? And how hard it is to include evos?
Where do I go to pay my $125 in order to ask a question
If you wish to schedule a consult, there is a link on the website. www.baxtersgarage.com/product/skunkseriesconsultation/146
Your consult doesnt have to involve an engine job. For customers and consults that involve selection and purchase of parts, there is no fee for that. I just dont have time to continue to devote hours a week for tech support on parts purchased from other companies who dont support their customers/parts I didn't sell, or folks that are not customers. Thank you for understanding.
Very good Kevin, you got to find and rely on a local shop you trust and back them! IMHO
Very good point.
Rite on Kevin…. I’ve got 83xl 47 flathead a couple of xl buell San just got a 24 RG the dealers can’t have all those techs I search and do my home work for work to be done
Thanx for the info and advice….. Ken
yea, imagine taking your 1987 Monte Carlo, or a Pontiac Fiero to a GM dealer now. They would look at you cross eyed. My Road Glide is currently 11 years old, and seems like a toaster oven compared to a rocket appliance, when you look at the 2024's
Well said.
Eventually there will be a phase out period on old bikes even parts harder and harder to find.
Thank god for independent shops like yours Kevin.
Point well taken. Also would like to point out that it's not just H-D that doesn't service older bikes. BMW and others also don't, for the same reasons. One caveat: It can depend on the model and the individual dealership as to whether or not they'll service it.
The only time i use the dealership for my 1988 FXRS-SP is online for parts using their digital microiche, get the part number etc...sure some parts are obselete now but i can also call an independent crew that stock a lot of old parts.
I try and buy a few at a time....5 oem fuel gauge bulbs...took 18 months through the dealership.When they arrived they emailed and gave the cost plus postage...i called them and said 18 months and you want postage...go jump in front of a bus i said ( in a round about way hahahahaha )
Ok postage is free he said..it was only $5 but screw them
It seems surreal that my Evo's are antiques, I remember clearly how much enthusiasm the "biker" community had about Harley Davidson and the new motorcycles that they were producing after the takeover from AMF. I remember rich men in expensive cars offering me 50% over retail for my '84 Softail in 1992. (This happened twice)
Now the parts counter attendant at the local dealership doesn't know what an "Evo" is. I happened to be standing at the counter recently when a man came in to buy something and mentioned his Shovelhead. The parts attendant asked what a Shovelhead was and the man was genuinely taken aback that an employee at a Harley dealership didn't know what about shovelheads. Judging by the look on his face, I thought that the man was going to burst into tears when I mentioned that Harley hadn't made "Shovels" in 40 years.
The march of time is relentless.
Don't worry about it young man. You will be old tomorrow afternoon too.
Well...as some define....a classic is 20 years old with vintage being 25 or more...so...a 2004 Twin Cam would be a "classic" at this point. Some define antique at 45 years or older. Yep...thats getting into first year Evos. LOL. Whats a Shovelhead? WOW. Speaks volumes doesnt it?
@@KevinBaxter My State offers antique plates for vehicles 25 years or older. That was my standard for stating that my Evo's are antiques. My '84 and '99 Softails are now both eligible for geezer plates.
I'm fortunate that I've got a dealership in Wesley Chapel, Florida that will work on my 05 XL1200C carbed Sporty. When they aren't able to anymore, there's my indie shop Ride Factory in Ybor City just down the road. Either way, I'm in good hands! 🙏♥️🤘
If you ride a bike, you'd better learn how to wrench on it. It will save thousands, and you'll learn...... not to many others know how and its sad these days.
There are many different ways one could look at this how ever in my opinion if your at a dealer of any kind and interested or ready to pull the trigger to purchase then go the the parts department talk to them because more often then not they are very knowledgeable about possible issues
Other points not mentioned is. The local dealer is dictated to from the MoCo, how they will operate, what they will sell, and allowed to sell. Your local dealer probably has mechanics who would enjoy working on the simplicity of the beloved EVO powered bike. But, should you expect the dealer to stock parts for a 25 year old bike ? Go to your Chevy dealer and ask if they stock parts for your 1997 Silverado.
My dealer works on any Harley. I've seen shovels and pans torn down in the shop.
I don't think it's the MoCo.
All fair points. New perspective.
The older wrench will go to work for his self. The kid has no experience so there you go, a kid that dont have experience.
Kevin,
Good rant. People it is called a business. And with any business you are suppose to sell the latest and greatest. That is the way it is.
Now if a dealership is limited with their resources, tell people that. But, if it were me, I would have some business cards of people that I could recommend to work on an "older" bike. Nothing wrong with supporting the locals.
Gee, I wonder if my local dealership has the expertise to work on my '55 Belaire Chevy!
A tach and dwell meter would help along with a set of feeler gages and a timing light. That might do the trick.
Great job on the bike program. Please keep us updated.
Keep up the great work
Chip
Yes it is called a business and yes they need to sell their products. But they also need to look after their customers that are buying these expensive toys and not toss them to the curb after 10 years.
Almost everything needed to know is contained in a service manual. There are some things where experience is key, but for most repairs, a basic understanding of how to read and apply the principles correctly that are listed in the manual is all you really need.
I would like to think MMI showed their students what a service manual is and how to use one.
Dealers choose not to work on older bikes because they know they are getting wore out and dont want the responsibility of a possible cascade of mechanical failures.
Mitch from Oklahoma is watching...👍🏼🤠
How about a update school every say 10 years. Easy fix. That's why they have maintenance manuals.
love the channel. why is it my honda dealer will work on my 1993 goldwing? the fault lies with HD. it's nothing new. love the bikes but corporate has sucked for 40 yrs. if you buy one, you accept it. i'm always asking people with older bikes "who is a good wrench for my 2000 and 1971". when you find a good indy, keep them in business
Harley doesn't even sell Screamin' Eagle plugs online; you have to go to the dealer. Or aftermarket... They can keep all of the ugly gray & black bikes they're building now, and kiss my ass. I'll do the work myself.👌
Mr. Baxter,
Kevin as much as I appreciate your defense of darley havidson dealers, we consumers that wrench our own bikes know this; dealers depend on the service department to pay their bills. Therefore the service department tech that takes all bikes in NEEDS to know their mechanics capabilities and not take in work beyond those abilities. INTEGRITY is gone when anyone professes to know how to repair a vehicle and prays for the easy answer at the same time. Dealerships do hire techs with limited experience of the companies bikes because they change every year, they do "sell out" their customers when they claim they can repair a bike none of their wrenches have experience with. A much better business plan is to honestly state what they can work on and have a list of other shops that could do it better and correctly without ripping off a customer.
With Respect, You are in my prayers
Hoka Hey