No Nonsense Spirituality: All the Tools No Belief Required. In “No Nonsense Spirituality,” author and philosopher, Britt Hartley offers a groundbreaking exploration that marries the rigor of rational inquiry with the depths of human spirituality. Best of all? No faith in the unbelievable is required: bit.ly/NNSBook
What an excellent discussion. Thank you. I think the “PhD” discussion is not complete, however, without considering the most wonderful gift that arises from an acceptance of the temporal reality of human existence: a newfound and profound focus on the present. Truly appreciating the value of the present is a life changing achievement. For me at least, that very real and rewarding new existence was worth giving up the blanket of false/artificial comfort. Every day has more value when you truly appreciate its scarcity.
Finally, some atheist content which challenges me to grow and consider new ideas, rather than just nod along with what I already accept! My challenge back to you, Brit, is whether happiness is a value we ought to be promoting to begin with? I have found that helping people pursue satisfying and/or meaningful experiences tends to promote better mental health than simply joyful ones, which I've seen work for both religious and secular folks.
This was very thought provoking, one thing not touched on was yes Atheists have to deal with the harsh reality of not living forever etc but theists never know if they're going to hell or not, so they're also dealing with a possible bitter end so to speak
Can atheism truly offer a better world if it cannot offer happiness? For me it was enough, but that's only because I'd rather know than be happy. Not everyone operates that way.
@@nononsensespirituality - I have the same mindset. I would rather deal with an uncomfortable truth than find solace in a comfortable lie. We live in a world of insanity because most people would prefer the lie.
I think it is the progression from proudly knowing to a humble uncertainty... the humility is letting others cling to knowing everything. I look forward to learning how to live with the uncertainty.
One thing that she didn't touch on is that Theists also have to live with uncertainty, they don't know whether they're going to hell or not, so that fear of hell is always there.
@scrider5493 So people would rather believe a comfortable lie Than believe the uncomfortable truth. Is what you're saying. So God is nothing more than an emotional comfort blanket.
@crazyprayingmantis5596 From my point of view, she isn't saying that theists don't have issues. What she is saying is they have community and so are able to deal with their issues a little better.
I really appreciate this conversation. I want to admit something. The first time I had a faith crisis I deconstructed down to a dark Nihilism. It was so painful and hopeless that I went running back into the arms of faith as a conscious choice. I chose magic over despair. I then started believing again, but deep down I kind of suspected I was chasing something that was probably fake. But, I didn’t see an option at the time. For my own family and my own sanity. Now, I’ve deconstructed again, and this time I knew exactly what I was going to experience. Pain. Lonliness. Loss. Grief. Nihilism. And sure enough. I went through all that and more. But this time with the added humiliation that I had probably allowed self-deception. However, this time around I’ve learned two things. 1) That the darkest Nihilism was a phase I could work through. And 2) I can still choose a much lower and less harmful level of faith. Namely, the faith that life is valuable and that the long term suffering of myself and others SHOULD be fought against. I have no proof in these moral statements (Sam Harris’s arguments notwithstanding). Life is kind of absurd and technically pointless but I can still find some happiness and minimize some suffering. That’s the intentional choice I’m making now. But that’s a privilege many don’t have. And to be honest, I’m not sure if the place I’m in right now scales to others let alone to an entire society. It takes a lot of work. I do miss community, the (false) sense of security and the (false) sense certainty. Because of this I don’t evangelize my agnosticism. I’ve tried to reduce my tendency to think I have it all figured out. I try to leave room for my TBM friends and loved ones to still be potentially more right than me. Or at least more healthy than me. Some days it’s hard to sustain. I don’t know if it’ll be worth it. I hope it is. I just don’t see an alternative for me right now. I’ve tried going back and pretending and it just doesn’t stick. Nor do I know if it’s best for other TBMs to go down my path. That’s why this discussion you’re having is so good. It’s very humbling. It helps me feel like I’m not alone. And it helps we work through the conflicted feelings I have about the practical value of belief. It’s still a work in progress for me so thank you for the discussion.
Thank you for sharing this. I find solace and some familiarity in your perspective. I didn't deconstruct twice but I did fall fast from Mormonism. Fortunately I was able to stop myself before I hit rock bottom nihilism. I found purpose and passion in deconstructing and reconstructing political and economic theory. It gave me an outlet and a hope that a better society isn't just possible, it's on the horizon.
The thing that’s always helped me is this: Religious people can claim all they want that atheism is meaningless. But little do they know that their beliefs pose the same problem - and in my view, an even scarier one- if a god exists, and there is an afterlife or heaven that’s eternal, then wouldn’t that make this life just as meaningless? If you have an eternity waiting for you where you can just start over then what’s the point of this life? Especially since so many of them claim that their real home is heaven, and they are just “passing through” this world. Well then, why even try? What’s the point? And what happens when you have an eternity? To do whatever? Sounds boring and meaningless to me. And how do you know what god will do after you get to heaven? He could whatever he wanted with you, and wouldn’t have to tell you. That’s unsettling. It made me realize that this life doesn’t have to be meaningless if I really don’t want it to be.
@@dallenpowell2745That's where I'm at right now. I'm not good with numbers, but I do invest in dividends, and I bought a few bit coins, lol. I think had I invested all the tithes and offerings I had when I was a believer, I would have been better financially.
A problem with just a little bit of religion is that it doesn’t stay in the box. Sociologists have observed that Islam starts to exert political force when the population is only a few percent Islam.
Exmo atheist of 30 years here. I agree with much of what Britt has to say, including her analyses of the various stages or levels of atheism through which one is likely to progress. I would add that, there is a post-PhD level - an Atheism Emeritus status - that sees through nihilism in favor of the simple gratitude of recognizing that we are the lucky ones to have existed at all. You see this expressed in the Scientific Pantheism as evidenced by Spinoza, Einstein, Hawking, etc. The quest for personal meaning may give way to a less personal, but more broad sense of gratitude and appreciation for just having been part of existence at all. I also think that part of becoming Emeritus would be the recognition that atheism isn't a white privilege thing (despite what current trendy academics may think). Instead, you simply note the evidence that atheism is foundational to Marxism and, hence, every place that Marxist communism has gone, it has done so on pretensions of elitist atheism coming to rescue the people from oppressive things like race and class (witness China, Russia, Vietnam, Cuba, North Korea, Poland, Hungary, etc. Clearly whiteness is irrelevant - that's just identitarian Marxism dressed up in the clothes of "Atheism Plus".) Ayaan Hirsi Ali also recognized this chilling side-effect as part of her conversion to Christianity. The rise of Atheism tends to herald the coming of identitarian politics that inflame tribal sentiments that are perfect for fomenting political revolutions. (Small pedantic note: Britt said Nietzsche died at 44. That is incorrect. He had a mental breakdown (likely due to syphillis) and was institutionalized at 44 - but he lived 11 more years afterwards in the care of family and friends before dying at the age of 55 from pneumonia. Not a happy end, but not a suicide or anything due to his philosophy, work, or nihilism.)
No such thing as identitarian left. The left has always united around class consciousness. Racial identity politics is a form of center left liberalism used by those who profit from the status quo to foment false feelings of social division among the exploited working class.
So Russian aren't considered white? When it comes to the privilege Britt speak of, I think she is referring to America, but I would have to get Britt to clarify that.
When you talked about the "community topic", one thing I remembered that I have always considered an "alternative" was the Festivals/Raves. Think about it, there is gathering, there is dance, there is music, there is sense of community, there is the "trance state". It's not very different from a cult. And there is no God being worshipped or dogmas to be followed. When I was young, I used to go these events a lot and I loved them!
Before COVID hit I was already grappling with the idea of church, religion and God. My deconstruction has been gradual and I struggled a lot with letting the idea of a God go. I've exposed myself to books, content online in pursuit of getting the answers to the most questions I have. I realize that not most people understood what I was struggling with, even in therapy the therapist suggested I go back to church. Which really made me angry. I am learning that we people don't experience church the same way, my church days we not as pleasant. I'm reading Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion and have since found some level of comfort but at the back of my mind I know how lonely it's about to get coming out as an Atheist. I have been through a very dark place the past 2 years and sometimes I'd attempt to pray but, for a lack of a better explanation I'll just say my brain would remind me that nobody hears me. Not even God because God doesn't exist. It has been a lonely painful journey but I don't see how I can go back to religion because I'll be going back to something I am familiar with and that has cause me so much harm.
I don't know your situation in detail - but if you are single, perhaps having a significant other with similar views would be a first step toward comfort? I know that it is hard enough finding anyone compatible let alone finding an atheist - but they are out there. We are social animals and need others to lean upon.
Know you are among friends. It will get better. I promise. As far as coming out as an atheist there are no rules. Search the tube for something by Jerry Dewitt. I think he might help you.
I hear you. I think I would leak self respect in kidding myself and being with a group of people, who if they really knew Me would shun the person I am and my fears.
Hi! Child of an atheist here. I went through many different phases. Nihilism, engaging in Christianity, studying yoga, joined a Sikh community for a while. I got a degree in philosophy. At the end of the day, I can’t help but seek truth and I wish I didn’t. It’s hard. I also have OCD and it’s really hard not having a higher power that is easily identifiable. It’s a hard life but it’s mine. I have been through all of these stages, not always in a linear timeline. I appreciate your thought experiment!
Without active, clear-headed truth seekers, we can't find an alternative to these issues not dependent on toxic dogma that causes holy wars and allows molesting priests.
Going through what you went through, do you have any advice to a father of a little girl who recently became an agnostic atheist. I'm nearly 40 now and I'm done pretending god exists and condemns most of our planet to eternal suffering. I don't want my daughter to feel lost or lose hope. Life is good even without God for me, it's actually better
@ I think art, meaningful collaboration, and community engagement can be ways to still feel fulfilled without religion. My family even goes to a church! My husband and I are both raised athiest but we play music at a Methodist church. We feel that it’s good for our son to have that type of community and socialization. I just want to raise my family understanding the purpose and benefit of shared mythology and traditions while also having a critical eye. If they choose to practice different religions at different points, I will be supportive. If they are the type of person that desires religion, I will hope they learned enough discernment to find spaces that are warm and comforting
@85litovkin53 I'm another person who grew up atheist. It stuck both for me and my one sibling. Um... I didn't feel as untethered as some here, I guess. My parents were very into community service, including being in jobs that did such things, and while I wasn't baptized or anything, we did the holidays the extended family did, etc. I can honestly say that Christianity doesn't have emotional resonance with me. I find the idea of eternal life unsettling rather than soothing and the impermanence of life reassuring. The idea of a personal god of any sort seems weird and kinda creepy to me. IDK if that's because I've had a good life, because I'm not a seeker that way, or what. When bad things happen in my life, religious people try to reassure me by saying it's part of some sort of divine plan, and I honestly think that idea feels worse than just that these things happen without meaning. Both my kids are disabled, we've lost people, etc. But I'm not unhappy. Am I trying to build a society on my lack of belief? Nope. If you want to ground your kid in rituals and community with low belief pressure, I would like to suggest looking at Unitarian Universalist churches. If I have problems finding community or want some ritual, they've always been welcoming and the ones I've been to run things in such a way that you don't need belief in a deity. For stories, the works of Terry Pratchett are often nice as well and my kids loved them. We also just read widely as a family, so the kids had access to a lot of stories from various religious traditions, mythologies, etc. Overall, we're storytelling animals, for better or worse. Um...we've done things like include the kids in the other side of rituals when they figure them out. Once you figure out Santa, you can be part of helping fill everyone's stocking and engage in that spirit of anonymous generosity, for example. Generosity is a value and this is a ritual we passed on to our kids as one of many affirmations of that value. We value learning, and there are always little family rituals you can do surrounding that as well as community rituals like graduations. I hope that gives you some ideas. All of us in my family do some expressive stuff, engage in community endeavors that involve collaboration, and try to find ways to live our values.
@@85litovkin53I am a Christian, I could maybe shed some light on the issue you are having. I am at least willing to try of course. Is your issue with God the fact that he must punish and you feel it is extreme? I am merely curious and pass no judgement, but maybe we can understand one another and it will reflect on the concerns you have of your daughter's belief.
I was thinking about it last night. Leaving religion, or becoming a vegetarian, or seeing the truth of capitalism, are things people will get to when they are ready if that's where they are heading to in their journey. Trying to convince someone will usually just cause them to double down and strengthen their resistance. If we learn and grow ouserlves, we will be prepared to received them when it's their time. Your channel here and on the other app are so important because all the information and the discussions are here waiting for those who are seeking it!
@lawrence_of_osaka how so? You do realise that people who watch UA-cam videos and end up losing faith and leaving religion watched those videos of their own free will, right? No atheists are going door to door or standing in corners and preaching at people. You have to go after this sort of content, and you can just scroll by and ignore when it shows up.
I have never felt more seen. You just wrote my post-deconstruction biography but with deep psychological insights into subconscious feelings I couldn’t have articulated until now. I literally want to reach through the screen and hug you, and if I could I assure you I would burst into tears (and that’s not the kind of guy I am). Thank you so much for the work you do.
I would consider myself a nihilist, but I don't feel depressed, or worthless or any of those things. I live on a speck of dust in a universe called earth, and on that earth I'm just a speck of dust as a human. I'll be forgotten within a generation or 2 . As a whole my existence on this planet means mostly nothing to anyone but myself and when I die I will be lost in time forever. However I don't have a problem with that. My life is important to me and I intend to experience it as much as I can until I draw my last breath. I hear people referring to nihilism as being depressing and lonely, but I look at people like Forrest Valkai ( A self confessed nihilist), he seems like the happiest person I've ever seen.
Exactly. I think lots of us feel that way, at which point, why bother using the word "nihilist" at all? Isn't that just playing into the hands of those who want to use the term "nihilism" to refer to something negative?
I'm a 77 year old with truth-seeking as a high value. I found my way through many of the ideas you expressed in this video, though in NO WAY could I have expressed them so well! Great work, great thought experiements, a contribution to the internet space!! In my longish life, seeking scientific as well as "spiritual" truth, I have wandered through Buddhism and Advaita Vedanta -- and found, or was found by, a core something that is "truth" to me. An intuitive, feeling truth, but one that I find consistent with ideas about the "unity of God", etc., in lots of religions. So, it satisfies me. Death doesn't scare me. Nor is nihilism a draw or temptation. In what I see around the internet, I am not the only one like this -- but there isn't a cult! I recognize kindred spirits/thinkers when I see them. It makes me sad that I don't see a way to try to pass on some of what I have found. I rarely talk about my ideas in public either, as others would think they are "weird". It's meaningful but deeply personal and I just don't have anything to offer other someone seeking their own personal truth. My daughter is a conservative Christian and happy with her church and belief-system. She found her own way! Something I am happy about! My son is non-religious and struggling to find purpose in the midst of a mid-life crisis, having gone through a divorce and losing his job. Plenty of religious people suffer mid-life crises, too, and frequently then reject religion. Life is complicated. Perhaps he can tell, though, that I have found something which gives me meaning, and it will help him find his. I hope so. Good luck and interesting experiences on your journey! Please keep writing about it!
My whole problem is why is there an assumption that this problem of meaninglessness has to be solved with believing in the existence of a God? Like, why does that have to be the dichotomy? When you say yourself, and I agree, that we are battling against humans’s fear of death, meaninglessness, and their fear of complete freedom, then believing in a God isn’t the only way that a person can sidestep or negate those fears. A person could just believe in an afterlife, for example. I think most of the problem with religion (Christianity at least) is that they introduce an authoritarian judge that decides what afterlife a person ought to have. Then superiority and resentment of others grows from that. Thoughts?
As an atheist who's been meditating, it's helped with eradicating many lingering religious thoughts and habits that I thought could only be vanquished through intensive study. Every time I deeply meditate, I obtain a memory of having experienced a state of significantly less thoughts, seeing the world more clearly without my thoughts in the way. For whatever reason, it's really cleaned me up. Despite this, I still enjoy gathering my favorite Bible verses that mention no God, and are only admirable for their poetic value and wisdom. I feel as if I'm saving beautiful gems from a sea of religious darkness. If I were to deconstruct religion for others, it'd be what I said earlier - salvaging its jewels, so they stand out more clearly from the darkness.
@@koppite9600 acatssoftnose replied, “I Don’t know.” The koppite9600 did not understand. After this acatssoftnose crossed the river into northern China.
"Why the worry, I'd rather wonder." -from a Ted talk distilling down all the talks into the shortest possible sentence... it's been my life's mantra, so when I saw that quote, I had to share.
This is why I empathise* with religious people because it is their anchor in life and it would be a shock to the system if the Catholic Church one day decided to came out and say they made it all up and it wasn’t true. My thing is why are they not interested in finding out whether what they believe in is actually true, they rather their ignorant bliss. Deconstruction is almost a natural route for certain minds especially in this information era; we literally walk around with encyclopaedias in our pockets daily. Enjoy your life and live in the present all we have is now.
This is why I never tried to explain to my parents how natural selection works: They've built their lives on delusionally misunderstanding core scientific principles; explaining truth seems more harmful at their late stage.
@@uncleanunicorn4571 Gregor Mendel Father of genetics George Lemaitre big bang science Why do you think your parents don't rely on these scientists but they have to rely to your science?
@@uncleanunicorn4571 They know Gregor Mendel and George Lemaitre were priests. They just let the scientists do their things while they go about their happy lives. Hoard science all you want
I suspect I have had the "Phd" atheism feelings almost all my life. You put words to my feelings very potently. I feel like crying for two reasons: 1. because I feel like my feelings have finally been mirrored by another human being. and 2. because you state the tragedy of the human condition so powerfully. I'm about to go for my nightly walk where I often process feelings. I'll probably stop at a secluded bench for a bit and cry for real.
This is my first exposure to you. A friend sent me the link and asked my thoughts. First, I greatly appreciated your fleshing this out. It will be incredibly helpful for many people. I went through this process when I deconstructed. There's very much a grieving process when coming out of the Institution of Religion. That process typically involves this maturity level of atheistic thinking. Some of your insights within this short clip were very, very needed, i.e., depression, suicide, risky behavior. People tend to neglect thinking of humans as human beings and place them within the matrix of camps, thereby dehumanizing their fellow humans. Second, I think a great point fo flesh out (especially with your proclivity for eloquence and cogency) would be defining the term "atheism." As within all camps of thinking, I think there are caricatures of who and what an atheist is and what the word means. Just my .02 cents. Thank you for this video!
I grew up in beautifully atheistic Czechoslovak Republic. Today is my country Czech Republic, one of the most atheistic countries in the world. Our society is cca 70% atheistic. And trust me: there are almost no benefits of organized religions, which our society would not be able to produce / reproduce. When churches are providing for example charity, it's good, but it doesn't mean the atheists couldn't do the same. Etc... We don't really need organized religions, especially the abrahamic religions. Greetings from the Czech Republic. And btw: Atheism is not a white privilege. The most people advocating for slavery of black people were and today are religious. In the US christians, in Africa muslims.
I...feel like this is really indicative of how people raised within religion might react to not being told what their values are, IDK. I feel like maybe "stages of deconstruction" might be more applicable? She's making claims without sufficient support. I note that she's holding onto this whole "Christianity is better than Islam" thing too, so there's a lot of bias in favor of the tradition she came up in as well. The Czech Republic is a beautiful place! I'm hoping to visit again some day.
Very though provoking. I think everyone's journey is unique. I never went through some of the proposed phases. Also, I wouldn't overstate the need for church to fill social gaps or delude people about their cosmic irrelevance. Among the people I know, knowledge of finality has dramatically improved their appreciation of life and overall well being. Most northern European nations are 50-95% Nones. Their populations are still socially connected and highly content. I think anomie is more of an America Problem than an Atheism Problem
This is precisely what I needed to hear. After deconstructing about 25 years ago, I've found my way to something resembling a positive nihilistic/stoic approach to life. Though I have been very content and often overwhelmed with joy at living in the present moment, I have found that my recognition that there is no ultimate meaning has produced a decreased drive to plan for the future and take steps to realize future goals. You've revealed a crucial flaw in my position, and I'm grateful for it.
it's not a flaw! it's just the truthful way to live. you're not unduly influenced by the forces of your society. live just as you are - absolutely nothing wrong with it but for the fact that you suspect there might be something wrong with it!!
Atheists do have a shared sense of the sacred: it is called Environmentalism and Humanism. There are organizations and structures setup, a shared sense of purpose and identity and community.
I've been in an atheist community for 10 years. While my parents are invested in not understanding evolution, going forward we must explore ways to to connect our sense of the sacred with actual truths about the world.
@@uncleanunicorn4571 I think words like sacred and spiritual are beige words that you would not understand because, even though you are *unclean, at least you are a unicorn, and everyone knows you and your species fart rainbows. *Grooming and horn polished by the hands of a loving and beautiful ostler will have you sparkling in no time.🦄🌈
@@franklinanderson9687 Now nothing. If you really don't have those values, then I will probably think you're kind of a jerk, but so what? The point is if you want to connect with other people around whatever you do value, then you can. And if you don't, then so be it. It's kind of silly to suggest, as the video does, that religion is ONLY POSSIBLE way we could ever have a sense of community around shared values.
This blew my mind and opened new doors of understanding that I hadn’t considered before… Possibly obscured by my hatred towards the lies as someone who values the truth above all things. This is so wonderfully put and so honest, I’m hoping this will spark some interesting and different conversations within the .atheist “community”
I think neither atheism nor religion is the ultimate answer, but more so on how you live your life and whether you’re actually doing good for society. My thoughts are that humans need to be more wise to the fact that you can live a life full of worth, with or without religion. If you demand everyone to live in your worldview that’s when it becomes problematic.
One thing that she failed to mention is yes atheists have to deal with the harsh reality of dying and not existing but believers also have to deal with the fact that they never know if they're going to avoid hell, the threat of hell is a very real possibility for believers to have to deal with.
@@crazyprayingmantis5596 What fascinated me about her talk is what she was saying applies to everyone. Atheists and theists. She is plumbing the human condition. With my theist lenses I can see the root cause, pride. If anything is the root cause for fouling up the human experience it is pride and lack of humility. On the theists side pride is a deal killer. God just positively hates it. And if we are dumb enough to take the train to eternal damnation we will proudly strut there with our bags full of prideful trash.
I couldn't care less about anything anymore. I just live my life as best as I can with whatever comes my way. No interest in religion or after death worries anymore. I feel better than ever before now that I'm free. I just know there's good and bad force, and that's my understanding.
Here I am, late to the convo! Firstly, your channel has helped me move from 101 to 201. Listening to you has reminded me not to throw out the baby with the bathwater, and to recognize the good parts and the good people which has helped me simmer down the fire and anger and smugness I was feeling in while I was in 101. I'm a parent raising 2 boys, ages 10 and 12, without religion. I feel like there is something in the middle between full embrace of religion as a source of community and being totally alone as an island without it. I think organizations like Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are examples of "nest" communities. Also, I feel like traditional public education is another nest community. When we had a house fire last year, my kid's elementary school rallied around our family and helped us in a tangible way, much like a church would. And my book club ran a meal train to make sure our family was fed as we dealt with the immediate aftermath of the fire. So, a real community helped us (school) and my individual community (book club). Another source of help was the Red Cross, and they are a non-religious group who do amazing work, a great example of compassion without religion. Also, I wouldn't discount your literal neighbors. Perhaps one path out of the burning house of religion is to get to know our neighbors again and build community right where we live, right where our kids grow up. Another example is the UU church. I'm curious to know if they are growing in the US right now or not. They are the closest thing to an "atheist" church I can think of. My friends who attend seem to really enjoy how it fills the void of the truth claim churches they left behind. All that to say, I struggle with the idea that we're leaving a burning building and running off a cliff, as I see the opposite happening: nest communities without religion that contain meaningful rituals already exist and are thriving. Secular Christmas is a good example of how religious holidays can evolve that everyone can enjoy. There is even an increase in people marking the Winter Solstice which is definitely a secular holiday! Taking a hike on New Year's day I feel like is turning into a secular ritual. There were many organized in my area. I think Pride is another example. These to me are examples of secular holidays set aside where we DO go out in nature to connect with it and each other and imagine a better world for all. Secondly, I personally didn't go through a deep nihilistic period. I felt freedom from the meaning and purpose imposed by my religion. With the thought that nothing matters, that gave me the freedom to create my own meaning. What a beautiful playground to play in! I feel more connected with my fellow man because I'm not judging them based on the lens of my religion, but I'm able to meet other humans where they are. I've heard this from others who have deconstructed as well, we feel more compassion and love than before. However, I recognize the privilege in my experience. I have a supportive spouse and my life or livelihood do not depend on my connection to a religious community. Lastly, I love that ritual is being recognized as important. I read Sasha Sagan's book For Creatures Such as We (which I think I heard about from this channel!) and she does a great job outlining potential road maps for rituals without religion. Also The Power of Ritual by Casper ter Kuile, co-founder of the popular Harry Potter as a Sacred Text is another amazing book about the power of ritual, and what we can borrow from religion to create meaning, inspire awe, and connect with nature and others. These 2 books along with this channel and others have helped me make sure I keep the baby and throw out the dirty water, and make me feel hopeful that instead of leaving a burning building to jump off a cliff, more and more of us are instead leaving a burning building to frolic in the meadow of wildflowers across the parking lot.
I'm so glad I found this channel, and I look forward to watching it grow. An actual discussion of atheist psychology and mindset is a welcome escape from the many atheist channels I used to follow that decided to plow headlong down political rabbit holes. I also want to say that you are really close to the bullseye with your analysis of advancing atheist thought. Keep up the good work.
I wrote a poem once about the “sore demotion” from being “third of all and due for higher”. I can certainly relate to the “quiet moments” you mention. Thank you for this thoughtful walk through stages of deconstruction.
Not sure why looking at the stars isn’t enough. Seriously thinking of interstellar distances, the volume of intergalactic voids, the improbability of your existence-only 1 in 10^15 human DNA configurations will ever live… damn I wish this stuff was enough for people without vengeful gods justifying in-group out-group dynamics. Also I grew up in black churches in the hood.
@ yes, I agree that re-creating that community can be difficult but I've done it more or less in a few cities. There could be a vibrant UU church near me, thinking to try that out. Group sports, drinking buddies and keeping in touch with old friends has done a good job to this point. Aging out of some of those sports and alcohol now though lol
Amusing. I am not more or less happy being an atheist than when I was a believer (if I ever was). Your comments suggest that all religions are/were the same, and are more or like today’s major religions. Not every religion had afterlife’s and they were able to get by just fine, so I am not convinced that people need the comforting lie of an afterlife, and most people deserve to be treated like adults.
I am a Christian and find that most you tube podcasts featuring atheism has displayed more sharp mental acuity than the apologist podcasts in general. I almost live in both worlds because I have given up Inerrancy and ECT as a core belief yet hold on to the main components of the Christian faith. I understand the atheist and why some of them have left the faith and I can agree with their reasons. Your PHD-level atheism is a wonderful explanation of what would happen with society where everyone were atheists and the general tone of what living would be like that would lose community which is a prime element of a happy society. Your intended thoughts suggest a remake or remodel of the existing structure rather than tearing the whole structure down. Your suggestions are more humane and sensitive to what has already been built and the positives of that structure without at the same time ignoring the most troubling areas of that belief system. Most atheists bring in the bulldozers right away and are not farsighted enough to consider the consequences of such a plan. I applaud you for your thoughtful and gentle perspective.
I think this discussion is a good one. The assumption that atheism is absolutely true is spot on. What is missing is the focus, which she acknowledges briefly, that atheism is not about being better. The whole referring to the different ideas about atheism’s place through academic levels of achievement is of course designed to make these different ideas seem like they have a ranking in terms of intelligence and levels of study and research. These ideas whether atheism is all good or atheism is only good for the truth seeker but is bad for society shows a lack of imagination and the recognition that the truth is available to everyone. We can’t control when people come to realize that the supernatural makes no sense, but when they do it will potentially have some of the problems suggested. As an atheist I don’t find myself unhappy or reveling in meaninglessness. I just find myself motivated by seeking pleasure and enjoyment and seeking connection. These are challenges for everyone and accepting the truth of atheism changes none of that. If you are suffering from meaninglessness or despair or fear of death, then find a good psychiatrist and learn to manage those thoughts. The world ultimately cannot run from the truth, because ultimately reality wins out as it did for dinosaurs and Neanderthals. Humans ultimately won’t survive as a species if we can’t figure out how to live with atheism.
I was going through chemo and thinking it was the end as a religious person. It was not comforting at all being religious. Another point. You can belong to a Christian church and still not know any of the members (still very nihilistic). Another thing. Many people who go to church are no different than those that don’t. Religion maybe a myth you believe in but that belief, in my opinion, doesn’t change innate selfishness. I have seen it time and time again. I think your point of phd is that you don’t try to convince others to not believe. Ultimately deconstructing others doesn’t matter. However when I remember the mind f&$& that I went through with being a believer I sure would like to help my religious friends to stop being superstitious. I admit I have to restrain myself. Your video was helpful to stop doing that.
"If you are suffering from meaninglessness or despair or fear of death, then find a good psychiatrist and learn to manage those thoughts." Hi Steve. I say this with a heavy heart and not as some snarky jab but I find this to be an extremely callus sentiment. I'm a GenX'r so I'm not offended or triggered. I just think this comes off very insensitive to people going through an existential crisis. I dug myself into the void in my deconstruction and it's not something so easily fixed with a shrink and a self help book. Imagine telling a starving child stuck in a barren desert to just get a good nutritionalist and learn to deal with it. Not everyone has the tools to just suck it up. - Just one nobody's tarnished 2 cents
I think that you are missing my meaning and I may have been too indelicate in my statement since not everyone has the resources or good luck to see a competent psychiatrist or therapist. I have been fortunate to have the resources and to have found a good therapist. I believe the existential.crisis comes from mental health issues and not from the recognition that there is no God. The issue she raises to me is do we have to create a fantasy story to solve a problem that we know is just a matter of learning to live with the truth, grief and the fact that we are right when very few people can see it. Just read Darwin’s laments over his discovery of evolution. It can be very lonely and triggering when one realises something that others don’t or won’t see. But I don’t think they can’t nor that they ultimately can’t learn to cope through learning to parent themselves. This is not the same as dealing with starvation, which requires an actual thing, food, to solve. No amount of therapy without food will solve starvation. I am not making light of how difficult, challenging and painful recovering from being triggered by an existential crisis can be, but it also is an opportunity to examine your belief systems about what can make you happy or feel content. Just because we don’t know how to overcome a problem doesn’t mean that we can’t eventually learn. The truth may not solve your mental health problems and can even provoke a crisis for them but the solution is not to create a fantasy but rather to understand better how to deal with those problems. The problem for big brained humans has always been how do we deal with the fact that reality does not measure up to the fantasies that we come to believe in as children. The problem is ultimately about getting achieving a PHD level of self understanding and achieving PHD level understanding is never easy or painless.Also, developing societal level tools to cope is a must, because papering over reality with fantasies is at best an interim solution. That is why the scientific method became so helpful. We have now got the tools to uncovered reality. Now we just need to develop the tools to cope with that reality, like we do with any newly discovered disease, and I believe denying its existence is not one of them.
Thanks for the endorsement, but I get stage fright too easily and I lack the self confidence and other resources. After all I am in therapy for a reason. There are a lot of good channels out there. I am just not sure I could do something that is sustainable.
Hey Britt, thanks for the great UA-cam videos. I've come to the same conclusions after about 25 years of progressing through these stages. I've just started your course Reconstructing Spirituality.
I really don't want to come across as antagonistic, but I see way too many problems in the things you're saying. First off, I do understand where you're coming from regarding religion being an important part of how communities are built. Of course it is. But that doesn't mean that we can't build secular communities. Religion has had the headstart on secularism by literal millenia, so we can't expect things to just fall into place overnight. However, that is not cause to not even try. We still have a lot of work ahead of us, and just giving up will get us nowhere. I do not mean to presume anything about you, but the things you say smack of having no understanding of what religious community and culture is like for those who cannot conform to its strict mandated standards. This warm and comforting sense of community and belonging is not accessible to anyone whose sexual or gender identity does not fit into the cookie cutter standards or heternormitivity, or even for those of us think critically and ask too many questions. The warm fuzzy feelings you speak of were never the experience of the millions who find themselves ostracized by their culture and even shunned by their very families because who they are is not acceptable. I am an ex-muslim, and I know that the majority of ex-Muslims are forced to live double lives, pretending to be something they are not, just to continue to live. This idea you seem to have about people living in societies where they have to remain religious to survive is completely wringheaded: these people aren't happily carrying on their lives as Muslims; they are atheists forced to live a lie. You are committing the fallacy of seeing things from within your existing culture as the only possibility. While rare, majority secular societies do exist in the modern world; and all the datashows that they score the highest on all standard of living metrics. The majority of atheists in the modern world aren't struggling because we're atheists; we're struggling because of how the religious societies we live in treat us. We all fully understand the complexities involved in people living their entire lives with their religious beliefs being frequently reinforced at every level of their social structures, and how that makes it extremely difficult to escape these beliefs. But that is only the case because of how much religion has infiltrated our cultures. You talk about how people have come to depend so much on belief in an afterlife or divine justice to cope with their adversities. But that is only the way things are now because people have been indoctrinated to believe such things. I don't expect to convert everyone alive to atheism. But that isn't the point. What we need to do is work to build a world where newer generation won't fall into the same trap. And have you noticed how condescending you are? Poor old grandma can't handle reality? Theists can't cope without the safety blanket of religion? Did you could how many times you literally infantilized theists? You compare them to a lost baby in the mall who had his pacifier taken away?! And atheism is a white privilige?!! Seriously?! Only white people can cope with the harsh truths of reality? Do you hear yourself?!!! But it's people like me apparently who talk like we're better than everyone else?! Give me a fucking break! As for Neitzsche, I do not mean any disrespect to him as a thinker, but his opinion still remains only that: an opinion. He is not some prophet who could see the future of humanity. We are not guaranteed to fall into some abyss of dispaire without religion. The atheist community did admittedly fall into the trap of placing the Four Horsemen on a pedestal initially. And while they were respected thought leaders, they never were the Messiahs of secularism. Hawkins and Harris and their views are controversial among atheists, and it is likely that Hitchens and Dennett might be as well if they were still alive. And Ayan Hersi Ali's conversion to Christianity is highly controversial, with many pointing out that her stated motivations have nothing to do with the tenants of Christianity. You also seem to fall into the camp that's decaying the great boogeyman of Islam coming to destroy our beloved "Western Secular Values", and holding up Christianity as the lesser evil necessary to protect us. This view is highly problematic for a variety of reasons. It's times like this that make me wish I was a UA-camr just so I could upload my own response video.
I want to add to your comment regarding the "atheism is a privilege" part. She said something to the likes of people who have suffered=need religion or that atheists can survive without religion because they suffer less. I challenge that. I know religion and faith can be a tool for healing and coping. But I still challenge that part.
I wholeheartedly agree. But I see the problem laid here as an American bias mostly. I'm French and I discovered creationism as an adult because in France schools teach science and therefore evolution and there's no debate to have because the separation of Church and State is a real thing we have implemented for long enough. Most of Europe is secular and I don’t think it's crumbling from nihilism. Queer people have been creating communities because they have been ostracised by religious people and it's not "a one person at a time thing". NGOs and such are communities you can join and most of them are secular. And, even though yes trying to promote atheism is not always the way to go, I can't endorse religion as the best of 2 evils. Religion and especially the American take on Protestantism is the worst thing a society can be based on. Look at what it is doing to your country! You are on the brink of a new civil war, every minority you can think of is more at risk than ever, some of your people in power talk about how slavery is not actually that bad when you think about it! How can you say that religion is not the cliff we are running towards? I'm sorry your journey has been so painful but the society religion offers is the scariest thing I can think about as a queer, autistic non binary person. I will be dead if I lived in a religious lead country. You can't just say: oh it's the best option for humanity. Which part of humanity? The white cis het part? Sure, but what about everyone else? Religion has hatred of the other at the root of it. You cannot "keep the good parts". Religion is oppression and "just a bit of oppression" can never make a happy world. Every positive social change was made despite religion. There is no baby in that bathwater. Society needs to evolve past capitalism, past patriarchy, past religion. Yes, it may take time and our parasitic destruction of our planet may not afford us that time but it's the only path worth taking.
This is so good. Thank you, Britt. Just as we shouldn’t top out in 101 classes we also shouldn’t quit using what we learned in them either. They’re all, from freshman to PhD, about being able to minimize suffering and oppression and maximize happiness.
Great insights. As a former Mormon, I definitely had my stage of being fully in atheism 101, but through some of the insights shared in your book, various episodes of yours, and many other resources, my ideas have continually evolved and I've gained some closure and made peace with some of the harmful side effects of my former fundamentalist religion. I've had to mourn the death of my many old beliefs that were largely rooted in hopeful but untrue narratives of faith inspiring faithful stories. Many of your insights helped me gain a healthier perspective on the benefits of religion so I could process the close relationships I still have with many family and friends who are still in the religion I chose to get out of. I still have some ways to go to be fully at peace but your content has helped me in many ways already. Thank you.
navigating relationships with those still in religion is worth consideration: I realize it's probably not worth it to try and explain natural selection to my parents.
@@timothyfowers nope. I like the idea of taking a lot of the tools that have historically been housed in religion and incorporating then in my own Spirituality as described by Britt in her book with some personal tweaks. What'd you have in mind?
After deconverting from religion I never became an evangelist for atheism, but I will never remain silent and indifferent to religious preaching... "Gott mit uns"
Absolutely brilliant. Thank you for sharing the thought experiment. It lands a little differently for me as I’m not an ex-believer, I’ve been an atheist since childhood, but I have most definitely been grappling with nihilism since young adulthood. Lots to ponder.
@iSkulk I would like to see those sources too. I grew up atheist, and it stuck for my sibling and me. My two kids were raised atheist and so far it's stuck for them. It's only anecdotal, so I want to see actual data. I note that at this point it's been almost a week since your comment and no reply from Britt . She has replied to other comments since then, including to people talking about organized atheistic groups, saying they don't raise children within the group. This leaves me wondering if she's conflating being raised atheist with being raised atheist in some sort of organized group. Without sourcing, we cannot know. Sweeping claims like that one need sources.
@amw6846 She's got a good enough head on her shoulders to see what we mean, I trust. I expect her views on this particular subject can change. Raising children within the structure that SOME religions CAN facilitate is likely to be beneficial for many of those children. That statement is vague enough to be inarguable to me, even without evidence at the ready. Anecdotally, speaking from the same place of intuition and fear that she is... most of the benefits one can get from religion are negative ones. For example, if you're religious in the community I grew up in, you get invited to more birthday parties. That would be a positive outcome, if not for the fact that it's only real because the Christian's were bullies.
I’m probably somewhere between 201 and 301. I think that getting to the graduate or phd levels are of interest to me. I definitely agree that seeking truth no matter the cost is a high priority for me. I still wish that we could find a way to live in peace with ourselves and the natural world.
Thanks Britt for the video. Thanks for pushing the conversation past "god's not real". Another thing that sometimes happens to those who reject Christianity is to become interested in other kinds of spirituality. Learn about Buddhism, Hinduism, Animism, or Pagan religious ideas etc. The reflexive rejection of all non Christian worldviews is also something I've noticed beginner atheists (coming from Christianity) cling to, and more mature atheists overcome. I thought this would have been worth mentioning in this video. Not everyone who recognizes the shortcomings of atheism necessarily thinks Christianity is exclusively the way forward. I prefer to imagine a new approach to religion where we try to learn from the best parts of all religions and carry something new forward that is more consistent with the knowledge we have today. The Unitarian's are the closest I've found in the US to enacting that vision in a structured communal way.
“High core truth” as not a choice nailed me! I am one of those that embrace nihilism as freedom compared to an endless cycle of reincarnation or an “afterlife” that mirrors this realm ( but happier?). I thank you for such a great talk.
I love this! I'm an atheist with a background in non denominational evangelical Christianity, but I have been thinking about getting involved in a local progressive Presbyterian church. Just to see if there is room for a secular person in a Christian space. I'm hopeful
I guess I'm probably around the 301 level. I appreciate the challenging ideas. I do have to say that there are a few assumptions here that I'm not entirely ready to grant. Atheists are less happy. Secular society can't take the place of religious society. Some people *need* religious thinking. (although anytime a statement has "some people" it is in fact almost always true - for *some* people; the degree to which we plan for that varies a lot though. There are *some* people who become much happier when a doctor amputates their perfectly healthy limb, but no one thinks it should be practiced any more widely than absolutely necessary.) Mostly I'll just say that just because we haven't done something yet doesn't necessarily mean that we *can't* do it. In the mean time, if you're an atheist, teach your children to value truth, look for meaning in the simple things, and always make sure they have a community and loved ones nearby.
I really don't like things like "some groups of people need belief" stated as fact. What I would say is this: Deconversion is a rough road and challenging others' faith in rough times is a jerk move. This also goes for trying to convert people from their faith to yours if you're religious. Often people get some measure of comfort from the familiar if nothing else, and unmooring someone in a tough time is not doing them a service. In addition, community is important and sometimes non believers will stick in a church structure to keep their community. If someone has recently moved, etc, finding a community that feels like home can be a real touchstone. There's a reason that many groups working with refugees want volunteers to stay away from inviting the refugees to their church and the like.
Atheists are less happy? That should REALLY depend on who you talk to, shouldn’t it? Otherwise, that’s a false generalization. I’m MUCH happier now being an atheist. No regrets whatsoever. I’m not saying it makes life any easier, but it does make it simpler. And I’ll take that over religion any day.
Love this series and this episode in particular. Speaking only for myself (naturally), yes, ultimate truth is definitely worth the associated cost since nothing is more sad and depressing to live under than delusion-it’s own kind of abject abyss, really. And the presence of death, happily, supports this conviction. Life is lovelier with death at the end having accentuated it. I don’t crave converts to this perspective, I just enjoy its place in my singular soul (along with other delightments). Do keep those thought experiments coming, please and thank you.
Hi Britt. Loved the podcast. Love the insights you provide. I found myself agreeing with pretty much everything. I'm 57 and was in Southern Baptist worldview for most of my life, worked my way out of the Biblical "God" mindset over the last 10 years, but definitely see the value this mindset brings to so many...especially my parents & extended family. So I don't try to convince any of them with anything. I guess I take the "PhD" approach with them. Anyway, always love and learn from your insights
I'm seeing secular societies fairing way better than highly religious ones in every measurable way. Health, happier, less domestic violence, sexual violence, teen pregnancy, abortion rates, general living conditions, education levels, the list goes on.
This is the most honest and insightful video I’ve seen in a very long time. I resonated with every single point and think they were all spot on. Thank you so much for making this!
I really liked the quote about how many religious people are already atheistic about other religious gods. So true- we are all atheists, really. LOL It seems like coming to grips with no religion is 1000 times harder for people who once believed the myths. I wasn't raised as an atheist. I did have exposure to several religions growing up and through my life (Catholic, LDS, New Age, Buddhism, Pagan, SDA, Protestant, Fundamentalist and others (one of my brothers is a Baptist minister), however I was innately skeptical so I never fully succumbed to the dogma. There is no scary 'void' for me without 'god' in my life.. There are plenty of community, secular clubs, organizations and activities out there and I don't shun traditional holidays like Christmas/Easter because there are plenty of secular rituals associated with them so I don't feel a loss. I do enjoy your videos. They are interesting and thought provoking.
Hmm. I think this only applies to those that end up in nihilism. When I left the church, I was relieved. A lifetime of fear of hell was taken away. I was finally free to make choices without considering what a scary God would think of them. I didn’t have to walk around feeling guilty for not saving others souls. I don’t fear death, only dying. I’m a hospice nurse and I see it constantly. What’s to fear of nothingness? It’s a lot less scary than hell and how I spend the last 14+ billions of years. Maybe it is because I’m privileged, but I really think the world is better off without religion. I think a lot of secular societies are thriving while the US is a mess 🤷🏼♀️
Very well done. This resonated with me. I deconstructed and ultimately deconverted 3 years ago. I kept deconstructing, and following things to their logical conclusions, now I am a hard determinalist and nihilist. I feel overall worse off now than when I was blissfully ignorant, and yeah, it all surrounds death. I wish I could go back to a time before I knew too much, but there's no way back since we can't choose our beliefs.
I pulled this from her website. I hope it helps to answer your question. "My undergraduate focus was Medieval Exegesis, which was really working with scriptures in all its complexity, layers, and nuance. My Master's Degree was under theologian Thomas Oord at Northwind Theological Seminary in Applied Theology: Gen Z Spirituality and the Future of American Religion. I have an almost Doctorate (ABD) in Open and Relational Theology from the same program."
I appreciate this. I don’t have a well formed opinion yet though. I wish humans could unify behind ideas that correspond with reality but it’s hard to compete with a well crafted narrative. Particularly one that solves your existential fears.
12:11 How much of this is the lack of accountability/responsibility being taught? It’s lacking in religion too, but the illusion of it is utilized. So belief or not, there should be a better baseline of propriety (laws) that don’t require bigoted behavior expectations maybe?
That's what I'm also wondering. When one becomes an atheist, does that mean do whatever? I went back and read the last part of your comment and edited mine. What does those baseline laws look like for both theists and atheist?
@ I would say that accepting that “unknown” is the only honest answer with any authority about God’s existing is key. That all life we know of in the universe is dependent upon one ecosystem, the planet earth & since all life depends on the continued functioning of that ecosystem which includes the life within it, we should have its best interest over our own in our actions & choices, because that would be in our best interests as a living thing. Those two things allow for religious ideologies to exist and to be honest about reality at the same time. It is not taking away anyone’s beliefs, its reprioritizing them for positive things over more negative things in the current structuring, while forcing nonbelievers to a standard too.
@ Technically we are all born atheists until we are cognitive enough to understand and ponder the concept. I choose to think gods do not exist in reality, because most of the evidence points towards them being unnecessary as we mere mortals define them. I have always been the one who made my own choices & suffered the consequences of them & often enough the consequences of others choices, so I don’t quite understand why you would think that I just do whatever I want. Your are gods chosen and forgiven all sin, do you just get to go out and do whatever you want because it’s forgiven? I assume you follow an Abrahamic god religious structure based on how to writings for your choice making, but I just use logic and reason towards those two laws I mentioned above when vetting my decisions. I choose to live every day trying to make sure on my deathbed that I have no regrets & that the future generations have a better chance than I did because I tried to make it that way for them as much as possible. So I live everyday in that purpose without a god as motivation, but life as my motivation. I have great love for and respect for life and it’s intricacies. Being without a god belief didn’t rob me of anything, it made existence more wondrous and special & more worthy of my dedication to making more responsible choices.
Wow, there is so much densely packed wisdom here - a very articulate and well presented masterclass in 34 minutes. It all rings true for me and helps me along in my journey as a lifelong atheist wrestling with how so many accept religious truth claims and how humanity can best move forward. Thank you, and please keep up the great work!
This is incredibly insightful stuff your saying. I'm amazed at your courage. I'm literally afraid to say things like this, though I believe it's true, because most of my " friends " would abandon me. Great video. It's helpful to know that curious people are out there.
I like what you're doing here. I'm not sure the lack of evidence (an existing atheist culture) means it's impossible. Thinking of a nature connection program started by John Young that is non theistic. My participation in those circles that focus on raising children suggests that theism isn't erased in a day, that it's awkward at the beginning, but that deep human connection and meaning is more of an emergent property than one delivered through religious formalities. Appreciate the warnings of what else happens could be worse. Nationalism has been devastating.
Good stuff! I enjoy the open mind approach instead of a closed minded attitude of being ‘absolutely’ right. For me it has been helpful to relook the definition of God. Approaching life and the experience of consciousness as an aspect of the infinite is helpful and approaching a state of unity and oneness with life/ consciousness/ pure being has been helpful whatever definition one gives it. Getting past, through, in, and beyond the “I, ME, Mine” approach of life gives it a challenge and wonder without the dogma of definition. Sending lots of encouragement and gratitude!
Great channel and brilliant insights. Personally, I’m not a fan of ranking things based on what ultimately comes down to human opinion. It reminds me of when my son came home from VBS and met a girl who was Catholic. He asked her what a Catholic is, and she replied, "Well, it’s basically the highest level of Christian."
oh my goodness, the girl's response made me laugh. If you asked "what is a Baptist" or "what is a Mormon" they'd answer it the same way. Funny how we delude ourselves, and then delude ourselves again when we leave religion thinking that now we're the ones who are the best! Good point about being cautious ranking based on human opinion.
I was constantly butting heads with my "fellow" atheist back in the mid 2000s (when I used social media) because I would sometimes raise similar ideas.
I love this video so so much, brilliant way to teach this. For me, the way in which I can stay dialectical, which is how I organize my world, is accepting that it is what is. It cannot be any other way because it was caused to be that way, even if I don’t know the cause. Religious people are religious because they have a reason to be. There was so much validation about both the value and challenges of “both”, but also I never could figure out why secular humanism doesn’t work and the beauty of secular Judaism 🤯 Additionally my favorite quote is it dies with your effort 😢 I want a community but I don’t want to actively have to keep it together. I would love to have a community center that had every offer a church does ❤❤ Thank you!!!
I think there’s a lot of truth and value in what you’re saying. But I would like to raise an objection: I think you mischaracterized nihilism for a lot of people. I find my nihilism freeing, not hopeless And on the other hand, my religious upbringing gave me at least as much terror of going to hell as it did comfort.
I deconstructed from biblical, calvinistic christianity and I’m more or less an atheist now. I feel an urge to write and publish about my deconstruction and the lies I’m told. My wife (still a christian) don’t want me to do that. She says it will hurt her. I don’t want to hurt her. We are hapily married. Do you have any advice?
I'm not a therapist so I wouldn't dare offer advice. But from my experience in mixed faith marriages, the person in religion is often scared and subconsciously concerned about your journey and where it's going. The best way to deal with that is learn about what their fear is and assuage that fear so that she feels more confident that your journey doesnt end the marriage. I have a video on here called Talking to your believing family members or something like that, you may find it helpful.
@ Thank you. Sounds good. I tried something like that. 😊 The problem is: I can easily say my future publishing would not hurt her and our childrens life, but I can’t guarantee that 😅
If you don’t talk about it to her, then the children are essentially dictating the speech and behaviour of the adults. Who needs to run the world, the children or the adults?
If you don’t talk about it to her, then the children are essentially dictating the speech and behaviour of the adults. Who needs to run the world, the children or the adults?
@@MichielDutch She can't guarantee that she won't end up in hell either. So don't worry about it, there's only 1 guarantee in life, we ALL die. I'm married to a Lutheran Pastors daughter, she fell pregnant 26yrs ago at the age of 16, we're grandparents now because that baby (our son) had his first son 3 years ago. I was an Atheist when we met, she was a brainwashed pastors daughter, went to church sometimes multiple times a week, taught Sunday school, worked at a private Lutheran college (so did i at one point) the whole works. Me being an Atheist and her being a Christian and having a father as a Pastor never once caused a problem for us, she understands why I don't believe and I understand why she does, and that's it, we never discuss it, there's no reason to. Now she's a little older, she no longer attends church, God has less influence in her life, ive never asked her but it wouldn't surprise me if she no longer believes. She lives life as if she no longer believes, if anything I talk about God as an Atheist more than she does. If you love each other and understand and respect each other then I don't see why your different beliefs should effect your relationship. Be kind to each other but be honest about how you feel and if you don't need to talk about it, don't. Only on very few occasions have I felt the need to talk about it.
Totally agree with most of what you said. Some folks need religion and would be scary without it. I wouldn’t want to take delusion away from them unless it hurts others. We’re such superstitious beings. It’s a struggle some days to care about day to day activities when it probably doesn’t matter. I regularly go to sleep and kind of wish I didn’t wake up but there are others that depend on me so I go on. It sounds dark but I enjoy most days.
Loved this thoughtful video! I was just talking with a couple of friends about how/if the effectiveness of shares myths to mobilize groups of people can be replicated in a more secular way-and I started to speculate on how replacing “faith” in a shared myth with “hope” in an unknown end/future could be one possible route. For instance, I wonder if enough it would be possible to organize people who are invested in creating a more communal society to meet regularly and mobilize based on a shared hope/vision/goal for the future-even if it is somewhat delusional/idealistic-it would be more akin to a shared hope than a shared faith. I don’t know if there are any good instances like this that exist in any secular cultures these days, but maybe that’s something that modern and future secular cultures could be ready for.
Really similar to my own experience, except it took me longer for my views to evolve along these lines. I've held on longer to feelings and ideas ranging from an early sense of being a bewildered victim of cultural oppression, developing into an arrogant superiority based on what I thought was an enlightened willingness to confront difficult truths in an attempt to examine reality objectively, and then giving way to a resigned acceptance of apparently irreconcilable differences of perception and reasoning that seem to shape the way people experience the world...differences that seem to be deeper than simple matters of conscious choice. And that seems to leave me in a position similar to what you may be talking about here. I wonder whether it's the same basic attitude that seems to unite philosophy from Socrates through Joni Mitchell: "I don't know who l am, But you know, life is for learning"
1. I’m genuinely impressed that you got through this whole 34 minute presentation without making a single reference to The Matrix. 2. My thoughts as I was getting to the end were of the possible need for a community of atheists to provide connection and support to each other. Not in a secular church way (I have also attempted that, and I agree that it cannot provide the narratives necessary for widespread adoption on the scale of churches), but more like a Nihilist Anonymous way - a peer support group for those of us who cannot access the support offered by religious groups. And also offering a welcoming space for those who choose to deconstruct from religion. Do you think such a thing would be useful?
Definitions... "what do you mean by...(insert your word or words)"... my dad would ask this consistently. So many times, as Brit does so well, we have to define what we mean... we have to clarify what it is we're trying to say and ask questions like, "What do you mean by..." and to remember, that no one person or book has the entirety of all there is, or knows all there is about a single subject.
As a former fundamentalist Christian of 30 years and an atheist of over 10 years and now 49 years old. I don’t feel better than Christians because I’m an atheist. I feel better than them because I’m not a bigot. I don’t tell people they deserve hell. I don’t deny science. I don’t try to take other people’s rights away like Christian Nationalists. There are far more reasons to feel better than just being an atheist. The only thing I miss is not believing in god but the idea of believing in an afterlife. I also don’t believe in free will but that doesn’t mean that Christians that are causing harm shouldn’t go unpunished. I disagree with you completely that hard core atheism is worse than hard core fundamentalist religions. The harm of Christianity especially fundamentalist Christianity historically shows how horrible it can be. Honestly I find myself disagreeing a lot with you on your videos. I do find some useful information but a lot of it I think is incorrect.
I feel exactly the same way as you do on this video.. you are spot on ,, Bravo for calling out the "expert" hence why we should not follow or believe in any one else's comprehensions and value it more than our own
23:32 The brain fully develops mid twenties and sadly many brains don’t have adulting abilities when this happens, making the brain response more emotional & childlike. You see this in adult tantrums or outbursts with name calling or threatening others. It’s more often a lack of knowledge or understanding about who & what responsibilities are.
I agree with this. I'm not an atheist, but do not believe in religion. God's existence is separate from man's attempt to control and cause fear based compliance. Finding peace while still examining and seeking truth is important. Many of us spent years trying to fit the mold, it always felt off to me. Thanks for your content.
I'd like to point out that not all religion is theistic. Taoism and Buddhism have no gods, except in certain popular, more ignorant and superstitiously ritualized versions. Hinduism also exists on a spectrum from deep philosophical sophistication to a whole pantheon of gods that some people regard as metaphors for general aspects of ontological reality and others take as literal silly gods to which you can pray, sacrifice, and get results. I'm an atheist and a philosophical Taoist. I regard the God concept as one of the most pernicious and destructive constructs of the human mind, because it organizes the reality of sentient beings into a hierarchical chain of power and privilege with a totalitarian God figure at the top. Nothing good comes from this aspect of religion. The Tao is not a god or an entity of any kind. It is a metaphor for the deep character of reality which is, and most probably must remain, unknown and mysterious to us in terms of being able to ever construct it as a comprehensive set of declarative propositions. The Tao is also the way (tao means way) that we should live in the face of this mystery. It is not a thing, not a personality, not a mechanism at the heart of reality. However, the deep philosophical meaning I find in Taoism, from which I develop further spiritual correlates on my own, fulfills the psychological needs that you ascribe to theistic religion-- for instance, it gives me a way to be reconciled to death and rescues me from nihilistic despair, all without my needing to acquire superstitious and magical constructs of reality. So, you might say I have my own religion, but it has no hocus-pocus entities, voodoo practices for manipulating reality, or beliefs in a fictional afterlife. You may be correct that humanity needs religion, but I see no reason that that religion needs to be theistic or magical in character, abrogating the character of reality that we learn about through science. I have Christian friends that attempt to construct a more enlightened religious philosophy through the vehicle of Christianity, and they do well enough for themselves in that their version of Christianity supports their moral character as persons and provides the comforts of mind that you allude to. However, I feel that their clinging to Christianity burdens them in certain ways-- in particular the God construct requires a bizarre and irrational metaphysical framework that cannot be reconciled to a valid exploration of cosmological physics; the God concept continues to provide a philosophical grounding for oppressive relationships between humans and between humans and nature; and their Christianity ties them to the egregious scriptures of Abrahamic religion which are rife with mythical narrative justifications for violence, misogyny, slavery, and the subjugation of the natural world. Validating these scriptures provides cover and legitimation for more literal and barbarous uses of these texts. So, I think that you make a mistake in conflating a need for religion with a need for God. We can have spiritual practice, meditation, unifying community ritual, practically supportive religious institutions, and verbal formulae to comfort ourselves and each other without daddy genies in the sky. Other cultures have done this. The people in Zen monasteries are not sitting in there praying to gods. Nietzche was wrong about the death of God. That wouldn't be the death of the valuable aspects of religion. We don't need our religion in the crude, coercive, and butt-ignorant form of theism. I agree with you that atheists shouldn't attack theism with arrogant aggressiveness, but we need to chip away at its foundations tirelessly until it is gone, simultaneously working to create a humane version of what religion so ineptly and blindly provided in the past. Atheism isn't a coextensive set overlap with materialist reductionism or moral nihilism. It's the rejection of a belief in gods.
We dont need either. If theists want to claim that everybody has some inherent responsibility or obligation to everyone else's welfare, then the burden of proof is on them to demonstrate that. Otherwise its just another unsubstantiated and unscientific faithbased religious beliefs. The claim that human life has intrinsic value is a distinctly theistic presupposition that has never been empiricaly demonstrated to be true , and so demonstratably isn't.
We dont need either. If theists want to claim that everybody has some inherent responsibility or obligation to everyone else's welfare, then the burden of proof is on them to demonstrate that. Otherwise its just another unsubstantiated and unscientific faithbased religious beliefs. The claim that human life has intrinsic value is a distinctly theistic presupposition that has never been empiricaly demonstrated to be true , and so demonstratably isn't.
Yea. I can see the fear of death. I guess my experience was using the fear of death to control you now. Not bringing you any comfort, constant fear of judgement, constant fear of not being saved, constant fear of hell. I guess as Hitchens said I don’t fear death, but I fear dying. Religion for me never brought me any comfort no joy, just put my mind into a pretzel and made me lose touch with reality, myself, I felt more connected to life before religion then I did when I entered it. It felt like it was so much about controlling behavior, what you believed and destroying your sense of self
This is an interesting clip, but I have to ask: Britt, are you suggesting that without belief in a supernatural authority figure, civil society might not function properly? Do we have to resort to magical thinking to build families and communities with customs and traditions passed on from generation to generation?
Thank you for the thoroughts. I was thinking along similar lines while visiting family of late. They are so entrenched and find peace in their practice that it would be wrong to disabuse them of it. However, I still chafed at their presumptions, as a core of peace for them im good, but as a political and socially exclusive worldview, I'm not good. Also, i think atheists need to try harder at building supportive and kindly vocal communities and allies.
Never heard of many of those people/sayings you list in stage one. My step 2 was realizing all those stories are just entertaining myths- some with morals, many without. 3. Don't think people are better off with religion. People are better off facing truth but I allow people their own lifestyle choices. Never understood your focus on nihilism and the void. Life is amazing. Morality does not require religion- most of those things you list do not need religion. We disagree on secularism. Carl Sagan day is Nov 9th.
Thanks so much for posting Brit. I've recently discovered your work and find it hugely thought provoking. On this piece, I wonder whether a shared sense of purpose (based on tangible common conditions) might have the power to facilitate the social cohesion that religion historically has?
I’m not so sure that you’re coming from an unbiassed point of view. Most of the society has been under the influence of religion and secularity has not really had a chance to even be supported so to compare the two when it’s mostly been religious is kind of not quite treating the argument equally and it’s like arguing from a box I think when you open the lid and you allow the truth and the reality ofwhat life is all about, it would develop without the hinderance of religion into its own form of community and it would be widely supported the more people got involved with it
I like what you have done in bringing the different levels of understanding atheism however, I see religion as a crutch, and after you’re healed, you don’t need it anymore so to prolong it is not really a good direction. It’s only coping for now and I get that but our future for an advancement where we’re all together on and understanding that’s honest we eventuallywould leave religion and still keep the fictional joy of storytelling and that part of it for sure.
I feel extremely enlightened and happy and so gracious towards life in all of its truthful, understanding and nihilism is a part of that where until there’s evidence to show something different rest would be a pseudo experience. It’s so easy to be completely content with honesty and truthfulness.
I wish you would do a similar video explaining the understanding of free will. I feel I have significant knowledge gaps understanding free will when you explain it.
I am wondering what your sources are for the information about children of atheists? I am in Canada so there are a lot of secular people and communities so maybe it’s a difference between the countries?
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
No Nonsense Spirituality: All the Tools No Belief Required. In “No Nonsense Spirituality,” author and philosopher, Britt Hartley offers a groundbreaking exploration that marries the rigor of rational inquiry with the depths of human spirituality. Best of all? No faith in the unbelievable is required: bit.ly/NNSBook
What an excellent discussion. Thank you.
I think the “PhD” discussion is not complete, however, without considering the most wonderful gift that arises from an acceptance of the temporal reality of human existence: a newfound and profound focus on the present. Truly appreciating the value of the present is a life changing achievement. For me at least, that very real and rewarding new existence was worth giving up the blanket of false/artificial comfort. Every day has more value when you truly appreciate its scarcity.
Two thumbs up! :)
Finally, some atheist content which challenges me to grow and consider new ideas, rather than just nod along with what I already accept! My challenge back to you, Brit, is whether happiness is a value we ought to be promoting to begin with? I have found that helping people pursue satisfying and/or meaningful experiences tends to promote better mental health than simply joyful ones, which I've seen work for both religious and secular folks.
This was very thought provoking, one thing not touched on was yes Atheists have to deal with the harsh reality of not living forever etc but theists never know if they're going to hell or not, so they're also dealing with a possible bitter end so to speak
@crazyprayingmantis5596 their god's judgment typically aligns with their values (somehow). So tends to be less of a question.
Can atheism truly offer a better world if it cannot offer happiness? For me it was enough, but that's only because I'd rather know than be happy. Not everyone operates that way.
@@nononsensespirituality - I have the same mindset. I would rather deal with an uncomfortable truth than find solace in a comfortable lie. We live in a world of insanity because most people would prefer the lie.
@@nononsensespiritualityIf we look at the data about the most happy countries, how does it correlate to secularism?
I think it is the progression from proudly knowing to a humble uncertainty... the humility is letting others cling to knowing everything. I look forward to learning how to live with the uncertainty.
One thing that she didn't touch on is that Theists also have to live with uncertainty, they don't know whether they're going to hell or not, so that fear of hell is always there.
Agree, most would be so sad if they thought not see Granny again, and church is so social, fellowship hall, food, laughing and time off, feels great.
@scrider5493
So people would rather believe a comfortable lie
Than believe the uncomfortable truth.
Is what you're saying.
So God is nothing more than an emotional comfort blanket.
@crazyprayingmantis5596 From my point of view, she isn't saying that theists don't have issues. What she is saying is they have community and so are able to deal with their issues a little better.
I know with absolute certainty that religion is entirely full of shit with absolutley nothing devine about it
I really appreciate this conversation.
I want to admit something. The first time I had a faith crisis I deconstructed down to a dark Nihilism. It was so painful and hopeless that I went running back into the arms of faith as a conscious choice. I chose magic over despair.
I then started believing again, but deep down I kind of suspected I was chasing something that was probably fake. But, I didn’t see an option at the time. For my own family and my own sanity.
Now, I’ve deconstructed again, and this time I knew exactly what I was going to experience. Pain. Lonliness. Loss. Grief. Nihilism. And sure enough. I went through all that and more. But this time with the added humiliation that I had probably allowed self-deception.
However, this time around I’ve learned two things. 1) That the darkest Nihilism was a phase I could work through. And 2) I can still choose a much lower and less harmful level of faith. Namely, the faith that life is valuable and that the long term suffering of myself and others SHOULD be fought against. I have no proof in these moral statements (Sam Harris’s arguments notwithstanding). Life is kind of absurd and technically pointless but I can still find some happiness and minimize some suffering. That’s the intentional choice I’m making now.
But that’s a privilege many don’t have. And to be honest, I’m not sure if the place I’m in right now scales to others let alone to an entire society. It takes a lot of work. I do miss community, the (false) sense of security and the (false) sense certainty. Because of this I don’t evangelize my agnosticism. I’ve tried to reduce my tendency to think I have it all figured out. I try to leave room for my TBM friends and loved ones to still be potentially more right than me. Or at least more healthy than me.
Some days it’s hard to sustain. I don’t know if it’ll be worth it. I hope it is. I just don’t see an alternative for me right now. I’ve tried going back and pretending and it just doesn’t stick. Nor do I know if it’s best for other TBMs to go down my path.
That’s why this discussion you’re having is so good. It’s very humbling. It helps me feel like I’m not alone. And it helps we work through the conflicted feelings I have about the practical value of belief.
It’s still a work in progress for me so thank you for the discussion.
Thank you for sharing this. I find solace and some familiarity in your perspective. I didn't deconstruct twice but I did fall fast from Mormonism. Fortunately I was able to stop myself before I hit rock bottom nihilism. I found purpose and passion in deconstructing and reconstructing political and economic theory. It gave me an outlet and a hope that a better society isn't just possible, it's on the horizon.
Ditto. Bless you.
The thing that’s always helped me is this: Religious people can claim all they want that atheism is meaningless. But little do they know that their beliefs pose the same problem - and in my view, an even scarier one- if a god exists, and there is an afterlife or heaven that’s eternal, then wouldn’t that make this life just as meaningless? If you have an eternity waiting for you where you can just start over then what’s the point of this life? Especially since so many of them claim that their real home is heaven, and they are just “passing through” this world. Well then, why even try? What’s the point?
And what happens when you have an eternity? To do whatever? Sounds boring and meaningless to me.
And how do you know what god will do after you get to heaven? He could whatever he wanted with you, and wouldn’t have to tell you. That’s unsettling.
It made me realize that this life doesn’t have to be meaningless if I really don’t want it to be.
@@dallenpowell2745That's where I'm at right now. I'm not good with numbers, but I do invest in dividends, and I bought a few bit coins, lol. I think had I invested all the tithes and offerings I had when I was a believer, I would have been better financially.
"life is valuable and that the long term suffering of myself and others SHOULD be fought against." Brilliant summation. Thank you for this!
A problem with just a little bit of religion is that it doesn’t stay in the box. Sociologists have observed that Islam starts to exert political force when the population is only a few percent Islam.
Please. Just a little Islam, as a treat.
Better make it extinct then?😂
So nip it in the bud?
Should it be made extinct?
Great danger! what should we do?
Exmo atheist of 30 years here. I agree with much of what Britt has to say, including her analyses of the various stages or levels of atheism through which one is likely to progress. I would add that, there is a post-PhD level - an Atheism Emeritus status - that sees through nihilism in favor of the simple gratitude of recognizing that we are the lucky ones to have existed at all. You see this expressed in the Scientific Pantheism as evidenced by Spinoza, Einstein, Hawking, etc. The quest for personal meaning may give way to a less personal, but more broad sense of gratitude and appreciation for just having been part of existence at all.
I also think that part of becoming Emeritus would be the recognition that atheism isn't a white privilege thing (despite what current trendy academics may think). Instead, you simply note the evidence that atheism is foundational to Marxism and, hence, every place that Marxist communism has gone, it has done so on pretensions of elitist atheism coming to rescue the people from oppressive things like race and class (witness China, Russia, Vietnam, Cuba, North Korea, Poland, Hungary, etc. Clearly whiteness is irrelevant - that's just identitarian Marxism dressed up in the clothes of "Atheism Plus".) Ayaan Hirsi Ali also recognized this chilling side-effect as part of her conversion to Christianity. The rise of Atheism tends to herald the coming of identitarian politics that inflame tribal sentiments that are perfect for fomenting political revolutions.
(Small pedantic note: Britt said Nietzsche died at 44. That is incorrect. He had a mental breakdown (likely due to syphillis) and was institutionalized at 44 - but he lived 11 more years afterwards in the care of family and friends before dying at the age of 55 from pneumonia. Not a happy end, but not a suicide or anything due to his philosophy, work, or nihilism.)
I'm glad you brought that up, it's very important
No such thing as identitarian left. The left has always united around class consciousness.
Racial identity politics is a form of center left liberalism used by those who profit from the status quo to foment false feelings of social division among the exploited working class.
So Russian aren't considered white? When it comes to the privilege Britt speak of, I think she is referring to America, but I would have to get Britt to clarify that.
When you talked about the "community topic", one thing I remembered that I have always considered an "alternative" was the Festivals/Raves. Think about it, there is gathering, there is dance, there is music, there is sense of community, there is the "trance state". It's not very different from a cult. And there is no God being worshipped or dogmas to be followed. When I was young, I used to go these events a lot and I loved them!
The problem is that they dont raise children, so they dont pass to the next generation or provide support in that way.
Before COVID hit I was already grappling with the idea of church, religion and God. My deconstruction has been gradual and I struggled a lot with letting the idea of a God go. I've exposed myself to books, content online in pursuit of getting the answers to the most questions I have. I realize that not most people understood what I was struggling with, even in therapy the therapist suggested I go back to church. Which really made me angry. I am learning that we people don't experience church the same way, my church days we not as pleasant. I'm reading Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion and have since found some level of comfort but at the back of my mind I know how lonely it's about to get coming out as an Atheist. I have been through a very dark place the past 2 years and sometimes I'd attempt to pray but, for a lack of a better explanation I'll just say my brain would remind me that nobody hears me. Not even God because God doesn't exist. It has been a lonely painful journey but I don't see how I can go back to religion because I'll be going back to something I am familiar with and that has cause me so much harm.
I don't know your situation in detail - but if you are single, perhaps having a significant other with similar views would be a first step toward comfort? I know that it is hard enough finding anyone compatible let alone finding an atheist - but they are out there. We are social animals and need others to lean upon.
It gets easier, just like everything in life it just takes a little time.
Soon you'll realise that you never needed that God crutch to lean on at all.
Know you are among friends. It will get better. I promise. As far as coming out as an atheist there are no rules. Search the tube for something by Jerry Dewitt. I think he might help you.
I hear you. I think I would leak self respect in kidding myself and being with a group of people, who if they really knew Me would shun the person I am and my fears.
Hi! Child of an atheist here. I went through many different phases. Nihilism, engaging in Christianity, studying yoga, joined a Sikh community for a while. I got a degree in philosophy. At the end of the day, I can’t help but seek truth and I wish I didn’t. It’s hard. I also have OCD and it’s really hard not having a higher power that is easily identifiable. It’s a hard life but it’s mine. I have been through all of these stages, not always in a linear timeline. I appreciate your thought experiment!
Without active, clear-headed truth seekers, we can't find an alternative to these issues not dependent on toxic dogma that causes holy wars and allows molesting priests.
Going through what you went through, do you have any advice to a father of a little girl who recently became an agnostic atheist. I'm nearly 40 now and I'm done pretending god exists and condemns most of our planet to eternal suffering. I don't want my daughter to feel lost or lose hope. Life is good even without God for me, it's actually better
@ I think art, meaningful collaboration, and community engagement can be ways to still feel fulfilled without religion. My family even goes to a church! My husband and I are both raised athiest but we play music at a Methodist church. We feel that it’s good for our son to have that type of community and socialization. I just want to raise my family understanding the purpose and benefit of shared mythology and traditions while also having a critical eye. If they choose to practice different religions at different points, I will be supportive. If they are the type of person that desires religion, I will hope they learned enough discernment to find spaces that are warm and comforting
@85litovkin53 I'm another person who grew up atheist. It stuck both for me and my one sibling. Um... I didn't feel as untethered as some here, I guess. My parents were very into community service, including being in jobs that did such things, and while I wasn't baptized or anything, we did the holidays the extended family did, etc. I can honestly say that Christianity doesn't have emotional resonance with me. I find the idea of eternal life unsettling rather than soothing and the impermanence of life reassuring. The idea of a personal god of any sort seems weird and kinda creepy to me. IDK if that's because I've had a good life, because I'm not a seeker that way, or what. When bad things happen in my life, religious people try to reassure me by saying it's part of some sort of divine plan, and I honestly think that idea feels worse than just that these things happen without meaning. Both my kids are disabled, we've lost people, etc. But I'm not unhappy.
Am I trying to build a society on my lack of belief? Nope.
If you want to ground your kid in rituals and community with low belief pressure, I would like to suggest looking at Unitarian Universalist churches. If I have problems finding community or want some ritual, they've always been welcoming and the ones I've been to run things in such a way that you don't need belief in a deity.
For stories, the works of Terry Pratchett are often nice as well and my kids loved them. We also just read widely as a family, so the kids had access to a lot of stories from various religious traditions, mythologies, etc.
Overall, we're storytelling animals, for better or worse. Um...we've done things like include the kids in the other side of rituals when they figure them out. Once you figure out Santa, you can be part of helping fill everyone's stocking and engage in that spirit of anonymous generosity, for example. Generosity is a value and this is a ritual we passed on to our kids as one of many affirmations of that value. We value learning, and there are always little family rituals you can do surrounding that as well as community rituals like graduations.
I hope that gives you some ideas. All of us in my family do some expressive stuff, engage in community endeavors that involve collaboration, and try to find ways to live our values.
@@85litovkin53I am a Christian, I could maybe shed some light on the issue you are having. I am at least willing to try of course. Is your issue with God the fact that he must punish and you feel it is extreme? I am merely curious and pass no judgement, but maybe we can understand one another and it will reflect on the concerns you have of your daughter's belief.
I was thinking about it last night. Leaving religion, or becoming a vegetarian, or seeing the truth of capitalism, are things people will get to when they are ready if that's where they are heading to in their journey. Trying to convince someone will usually just cause them to double down and strengthen their resistance. If we learn and grow ouserlves, we will be prepared to received them when it's their time. Your channel here and on the other app are so important because all the information and the discussions are here waiting for those who are seeking it!
there're dozens if not hundreds of folks on youtube with channels that show you're not 100% correct in your assessment.
@lawrence_of_osaka how so? You do realise that people who watch UA-cam videos and end up losing faith and leaving religion watched those videos of their own free will, right? No atheists are going door to door or standing in corners and preaching at people. You have to go after this sort of content, and you can just scroll by and ignore when it shows up.
I have never felt more seen. You just wrote my post-deconstruction biography but with deep psychological insights into subconscious feelings I couldn’t have articulated until now. I literally want to reach through the screen and hug you, and if I could I assure you I would burst into tears (and that’s not the kind of guy I am). Thank you so much for the work you do.
I would consider myself a nihilist, but I don't feel depressed, or worthless or any of those things. I live on a speck of dust in a universe called earth, and on that earth I'm just a speck of dust as a human. I'll be forgotten within a generation or 2 . As a whole my existence on this planet means mostly nothing to anyone but myself and when I die I will be lost in time forever. However I don't have a problem with that. My life is important to me and I intend to experience it as much as I can until I draw my last breath. I hear people referring to nihilism as being depressing and lonely, but I look at people like Forrest Valkai ( A self confessed nihilist), he seems like the happiest person I've ever seen.
Yes, and I’m wondering if this applies to society at large? I feel trust was her argument.
Exactly. I think lots of us feel that way, at which point, why bother using the word "nihilist" at all? Isn't that just playing into the hands of those who want to use the term "nihilism" to refer to something negative?
Do you feel like that is a product of a “good life”? Are you comfortable with the conclusion because you feel you have a life worth living?
@@ericb9804 If nihilism is the wrong word then I'm fine with being corrected.
@@tgram4894 If nihilism is the wrong word then I'm fine with being corrected.
I'm a 77 year old with truth-seeking as a high value. I found my way through many of the ideas you expressed in this video, though in NO WAY could I have expressed them so well! Great work, great thought experiements, a contribution to the internet space!! In my longish life, seeking scientific as well as "spiritual" truth, I have wandered through Buddhism and Advaita Vedanta -- and found, or was found by, a core something that is "truth" to me. An intuitive, feeling truth, but one that I find consistent with ideas about the "unity of God", etc., in lots of religions. So, it satisfies me. Death doesn't scare me. Nor is nihilism a draw or temptation. In what I see around the internet, I am not the only one like this -- but there isn't a cult! I recognize kindred spirits/thinkers when I see them. It makes me sad that I don't see a way to try to pass on some of what I have found. I rarely talk about my ideas in public either, as others would think they are "weird". It's meaningful but deeply personal and I just don't have anything to offer other someone seeking their own personal truth. My daughter is a conservative Christian and happy with her church and belief-system. She found her own way! Something I am happy about! My son is non-religious and struggling to find purpose in the midst of a mid-life crisis, having gone through a divorce and losing his job. Plenty of religious people suffer mid-life crises, too, and frequently then reject religion. Life is complicated. Perhaps he can tell, though, that I have found something which gives me meaning, and it will help him find his. I hope so. Good luck and interesting experiences on your journey! Please keep writing about it!
My whole problem is why is there an assumption that this problem of meaninglessness has to be solved with believing in the existence of a God? Like, why does that have to be the dichotomy? When you say yourself, and I agree, that we are battling against humans’s fear of death, meaninglessness, and their fear of complete freedom, then believing in a God isn’t the only way that a person can sidestep or negate those fears. A person could just believe in an afterlife, for example. I think most of the problem with religion (Christianity at least) is that they introduce an authoritarian judge that decides what afterlife a person ought to have. Then superiority and resentment of others grows from that. Thoughts?
yup!
As an atheist who's been meditating, it's helped with eradicating many lingering religious thoughts and habits that I thought could only be vanquished through intensive study. Every time I deeply meditate, I obtain a memory of having experienced a state of significantly less thoughts, seeing the world more clearly without my thoughts in the way. For whatever reason, it's really cleaned me up.
Despite this, I still enjoy gathering my favorite Bible verses that mention no God, and are only admirable for their poetic value and wisdom. I feel as if I'm saving beautiful gems from a sea of religious darkness.
If I were to deconstruct religion for others, it'd be what I said earlier - salvaging its jewels, so they stand out more clearly from the darkness.
You want to think for them?
@@koppite9600 acatssoftnose replied, “I Don’t know.”
The koppite9600 did not understand. After this acatssoftnose crossed the river into
northern China.
“No one knows for certain…think I’ll just let the mystery be”, Iris Dement.
That's implicit Taoism. I love Iris Dement.
"Why the worry, I'd rather wonder." -from a Ted talk distilling down all the talks into the shortest possible sentence... it's been my life's mantra, so when I saw that quote, I had to share.
This is why I empathise* with religious people because it is their anchor in life and it would be a shock to the system if the Catholic Church one day decided to came out and say they made it all up and it wasn’t true. My thing is why are they not interested in finding out whether what they believe in is actually true, they rather their ignorant bliss. Deconstruction is almost a natural route for certain minds especially in this information era; we literally walk around with encyclopaedias in our pockets daily. Enjoy your life and live in the present all we have is now.
This is why I never tried to explain to my parents how natural selection works: They've built their lives on delusionally misunderstanding core scientific principles; explaining truth seems more harmful at their late stage.
@@uncleanunicorn4571
Gregor Mendel Father of genetics
George Lemaitre big bang science
Why do you think your parents don't rely on these scientists but they have to rely to your science?
I think you meant you are empathising rather that emphasising with religious people.
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Gregor Mendel and George Lemaitre could easily be their priests, they are in safe hands
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They know Gregor Mendel and George Lemaitre were priests. They just let the scientists do their things while they go about their happy lives. Hoard science all you want
Britt, the good sense that comes from you is just breathtaking.
I suspect I have had the "Phd" atheism feelings almost all my life. You put words to my feelings very potently. I feel like crying for two reasons: 1. because I feel like my feelings have finally been mirrored by another human being. and 2. because you state the tragedy of the human condition so powerfully. I'm about to go for my nightly walk where I often process feelings. I'll probably stop at a secluded bench for a bit and cry for real.
Same 🫂
This is my first exposure to you. A friend sent me the link and asked my thoughts.
First, I greatly appreciated your fleshing this out. It will be incredibly helpful for many people. I went through this process when I deconstructed. There's very much a grieving process when coming out of the Institution of Religion. That process typically involves this maturity level of atheistic thinking. Some of your insights within this short clip were very, very needed, i.e., depression, suicide, risky behavior. People tend to neglect thinking of humans as human beings and place them within the matrix of camps, thereby dehumanizing their fellow humans.
Second, I think a great point fo flesh out (especially with your proclivity for eloquence and cogency) would be defining the term "atheism." As within all camps of thinking, I think there are caricatures of who and what an atheist is and what the word means. Just my .02 cents.
Thank you for this video!
I guess I'm at the Phd level. You're perspective is refreshing. Really enjoyed listening .
I grew up in beautifully atheistic Czechoslovak Republic. Today is my country Czech Republic, one of the most atheistic countries in the world. Our society is cca 70% atheistic. And trust me: there are almost no benefits of organized religions, which our society would not be able to produce / reproduce. When churches are providing for example charity, it's good, but it doesn't mean the atheists couldn't do the same. Etc... We don't really need organized religions, especially the abrahamic religions. Greetings from the Czech Republic.
And btw: Atheism is not a white privilege. The most people advocating for slavery of black people were and today are religious. In the US christians, in Africa muslims.
You either get religion or you get secular propaganda.
Maybe not in your country but in America it's not easy for a black person to come out as an atheist especially if they don't have means.
Very interesting, thank you for sharing an example from your country!
I...feel like this is really indicative of how people raised within religion might react to not being told what their values are, IDK. I feel like maybe "stages of deconstruction" might be more applicable? She's making claims without sufficient support. I note that she's holding onto this whole "Christianity is better than Islam" thing too, so there's a lot of bias in favor of the tradition she came up in as well.
The Czech Republic is a beautiful place! I'm hoping to visit again some day.
@amw6846 religion in America really did a number on us. It's going to take time to adjust.
Very though provoking. I think everyone's journey is unique. I never went through some of the proposed phases.
Also, I wouldn't overstate the need for church to fill social gaps or delude people about their cosmic irrelevance. Among the people I know, knowledge of finality has dramatically improved their appreciation of life and overall well being. Most northern European nations are 50-95% Nones. Their populations are still socially connected and highly content. I think anomie is more of an America Problem than an Atheism Problem
This is precisely what I needed to hear.
After deconstructing about 25 years ago, I've found my way to something resembling a positive nihilistic/stoic approach to life.
Though I have been very content and often overwhelmed with joy at living in the present moment, I have found that my recognition that there is no ultimate meaning has produced a decreased drive to plan for the future and take steps to realize future goals.
You've revealed a crucial flaw in my position, and I'm grateful for it.
it's not a flaw!
it's just the truthful way to live.
you're not unduly influenced by the forces of your society.
live just as you are - absolutely nothing wrong with it but for the fact that you suspect there might be something wrong with it!!
Atheists do have a shared sense of the sacred: it is called Environmentalism and Humanism. There are organizations and structures setup, a shared sense of purpose and identity and community.
I've been in an atheist community for 10 years. While my parents are invested in not understanding evolution, going forward we must explore ways to to connect our sense of the sacred with actual truths about the world.
Amen.
I'm an athiest and I don't have those values. Now what?
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I think words like sacred and spiritual are beige words that you would not understand because, even though you are *unclean, at least you are a unicorn, and everyone knows you and your species fart rainbows.
*Grooming and horn polished by the hands of a loving and beautiful ostler will have you sparkling in no time.🦄🌈
@@franklinanderson9687 Now nothing. If you really don't have those values, then I will probably think you're kind of a jerk, but so what? The point is if you want to connect with other people around whatever you do value, then you can. And if you don't, then so be it. It's kind of silly to suggest, as the video does, that religion is ONLY POSSIBLE way we could ever have a sense of community around shared values.
This blew my mind and opened new doors of understanding that I hadn’t considered before… Possibly obscured by my hatred towards the lies as someone who values the truth above all things. This is so wonderfully put and so honest, I’m hoping this will spark some interesting and different conversations within the .atheist “community”
I think neither atheism nor religion is the ultimate answer, but more so on how you live your life and whether you’re actually doing good for society. My thoughts are that humans need to be more wise to the fact that you can live a life full of worth, with or without religion. If you demand everyone to live in your worldview that’s when it becomes problematic.
@@johnwho4794 not being convinced there is a God is NOT a worldview.
@@RP-ei5vdThis. Atheism isn't a worldview. It's only part of a worldview. And that worldview it forms a part of varies from atheist to atheist.
Interesting
As a believer I found this to be an interesting and insightful drill down into human nature no matter what a person's label is.
One thing that she failed to mention is yes atheists have to deal with the harsh reality of dying and not existing but believers also have to deal with the fact that they never know if they're going to avoid hell, the threat of hell is a very real possibility for believers to have to deal with.
@@crazyprayingmantis5596 What fascinated me about her talk is what she was saying applies to everyone. Atheists and theists. She is plumbing the human condition. With my theist lenses I can see the root cause, pride.
If anything is the root cause for fouling up the human experience it is pride and lack of humility.
On the theists side pride is a deal killer. God just positively hates it. And if we are dumb enough to take the train to eternal damnation we will proudly strut there with our bags full of prideful trash.
I couldn't care less about anything anymore. I just live my life as best as I can with whatever comes my way. No interest in religion or after death worries anymore. I feel better than ever before now that I'm free. I just know there's good and bad force, and that's my understanding.
WAS LOOKING FOR SOMEONE WITH SOME SENSE AND HERE YOU ARE, GRACIAS !
Here I am, late to the convo! Firstly, your channel has helped me move from 101 to 201. Listening to you has reminded me not to throw out the baby with the bathwater, and to recognize the good parts and the good people which has helped me simmer down the fire and anger and smugness I was feeling in while I was in 101.
I'm a parent raising 2 boys, ages 10 and 12, without religion. I feel like there is something in the middle between full embrace of religion as a source of community and being totally alone as an island without it. I think organizations like Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are examples of "nest" communities. Also, I feel like traditional public education is another nest community. When we had a house fire last year, my kid's elementary school rallied around our family and helped us in a tangible way, much like a church would. And my book club ran a meal train to make sure our family was fed as we dealt with the immediate aftermath of the fire. So, a real community helped us (school) and my individual community (book club). Another source of help was the Red Cross, and they are a non-religious group who do amazing work, a great example of compassion without religion. Also, I wouldn't discount your literal neighbors. Perhaps one path out of the burning house of religion is to get to know our neighbors again and build community right where we live, right where our kids grow up. Another example is the UU church. I'm curious to know if they are growing in the US right now or not. They are the closest thing to an "atheist" church I can think of. My friends who attend seem to really enjoy how it fills the void of the truth claim churches they left behind. All that to say, I struggle with the idea that we're leaving a burning building and running off a cliff, as I see the opposite happening: nest communities without religion that contain meaningful rituals already exist and are thriving. Secular Christmas is a good example of how religious holidays can evolve that everyone can enjoy. There is even an increase in people marking the Winter Solstice which is definitely a secular holiday! Taking a hike on New Year's day I feel like is turning into a secular ritual. There were many organized in my area. I think Pride is another example. These to me are examples of secular holidays set aside where we DO go out in nature to connect with it and each other and imagine a better world for all.
Secondly, I personally didn't go through a deep nihilistic period. I felt freedom from the meaning and purpose imposed by my religion. With the thought that nothing matters, that gave me the freedom to create my own meaning. What a beautiful playground to play in! I feel more connected with my fellow man because I'm not judging them based on the lens of my religion, but I'm able to meet other humans where they are. I've heard this from others who have deconstructed as well, we feel more compassion and love than before. However, I recognize the privilege in my experience. I have a supportive spouse and my life or livelihood do not depend on my connection to a religious community.
Lastly, I love that ritual is being recognized as important. I read Sasha Sagan's book For Creatures Such as We (which I think I heard about from this channel!) and she does a great job outlining potential road maps for rituals without religion. Also The Power of Ritual by Casper ter Kuile, co-founder of the popular Harry Potter as a Sacred Text is another amazing book about the power of ritual, and what we can borrow from religion to create meaning, inspire awe, and connect with nature and others. These 2 books along with this channel and others have helped me make sure I keep the baby and throw out the dirty water, and make me feel hopeful that instead of leaving a burning building to jump off a cliff, more and more of us are instead leaving a burning building to frolic in the meadow of wildflowers across the parking lot.
I'm so glad I found this channel, and I look forward to watching it grow. An actual discussion of atheist psychology and mindset is a welcome escape from the many atheist channels I used to follow that decided to plow headlong down political rabbit holes. I also want to say that you are really close to the bullseye with your analysis of advancing atheist thought. Keep up the good work.
I wrote a poem once about the “sore demotion” from being “third of all and due for higher”. I can certainly relate to the “quiet moments” you mention. Thank you for this thoughtful walk through stages of deconstruction.
I wish I could read your poem!
Not sure why looking at the stars isn’t enough. Seriously thinking of interstellar distances, the volume of intergalactic voids, the improbability of your existence-only 1 in 10^15 human DNA configurations will ever live… damn I wish this stuff was enough for people without vengeful gods justifying in-group out-group dynamics.
Also I grew up in black churches in the hood.
Have you left Church? I can understand if you have not, many/most church as prime social centers to meet, greet and eat.
@ yes, I agree that re-creating that community can be difficult but I've done it more or less in a few cities. There could be a vibrant UU church near me, thinking to try that out. Group sports, drinking buddies and keeping in touch with old friends has done a good job to this point. Aging out of some of those sports and alcohol now though lol
Amusing.
I am not more or less happy being an atheist than when I was a believer (if I ever was). Your comments suggest that all religions are/were the same, and are more or like today’s major religions.
Not every religion had afterlife’s and they were able to get by just fine, so I am not convinced that people need the comforting lie of an afterlife, and most people deserve to be treated like adults.
I am a Christian and find that most you tube podcasts featuring atheism has displayed more sharp mental acuity than the apologist podcasts in general. I almost live in both worlds because I have given up Inerrancy and ECT as a core belief yet hold on to the main components of the Christian faith. I understand the atheist and why some of them have left the faith and I can agree with their reasons.
Your PHD-level atheism is a wonderful explanation of what would happen with society where everyone were atheists and the general tone of what living would be like that would lose community which is a prime element of a happy society.
Your intended thoughts suggest a remake or remodel of the existing structure rather than tearing the whole structure down. Your suggestions are more humane and sensitive to what has already been built and the positives of that structure without at the same time ignoring the most troubling areas of that belief system.
Most atheists bring in the bulldozers right away and are not farsighted enough to consider the consequences of such a plan.
I applaud you for your thoughtful and gentle perspective.
I think this discussion is a good one. The assumption that atheism is absolutely true is spot on. What is missing is the focus, which she acknowledges briefly, that atheism is not about being better. The whole referring to the different ideas about atheism’s place through academic levels of achievement is of course designed to make these different ideas seem like they have a ranking in terms of intelligence and levels of study and research. These ideas whether atheism is all good or atheism is only good for the truth seeker but is bad for society shows a lack of imagination and the recognition that the truth is available to everyone. We can’t control when people come to realize that the supernatural makes no sense, but when they do it will potentially have some of the problems suggested. As an atheist I don’t find myself unhappy or reveling in meaninglessness. I just find myself motivated by seeking pleasure and enjoyment and seeking connection. These are challenges for everyone and accepting the truth of atheism changes none of that. If you are suffering from meaninglessness or despair or fear of death, then find a good psychiatrist and learn to manage those thoughts. The world ultimately cannot run from the truth, because ultimately reality wins out as it did for dinosaurs and Neanderthals. Humans ultimately won’t survive as a species if we can’t figure out how to live with atheism.
I was going through chemo and thinking it was the end as a religious person. It was not comforting at all being religious.
Another point. You can belong to a Christian church and still not know any of the members (still very nihilistic).
Another thing. Many people who go to church are no different than those that don’t. Religion maybe a myth you believe in but that belief, in my opinion, doesn’t change innate selfishness. I have seen it time and time again.
I think your point of phd is that you don’t try to convince others to not believe. Ultimately deconstructing others doesn’t matter. However when I remember the mind f&$& that I went through with being a believer I sure would like to help my religious friends to stop being superstitious.
I admit I have to restrain myself. Your video was helpful to stop doing that.
"If you are suffering from meaninglessness or despair or fear of death, then find a good psychiatrist and learn to manage those thoughts."
Hi Steve. I say this with a heavy heart and not as some snarky jab but I find this to be an extremely callus sentiment. I'm a GenX'r so I'm not offended or triggered. I just think this comes off very insensitive to people going through an existential crisis. I dug myself into the void in my deconstruction and it's not something so easily fixed with a shrink and a self help book. Imagine telling a starving child stuck in a barren desert to just get a good nutritionalist and learn to deal with it. Not everyone has the tools to just suck it up. - Just one nobody's tarnished 2 cents
I think that you are missing my meaning and I may have been too indelicate in my statement since not everyone has the resources or good luck to see a competent psychiatrist or therapist. I have been fortunate to have the resources and to have found a good therapist. I believe the existential.crisis comes from mental health issues and not from the recognition that there is no God.
The issue she raises to me is do we have to create a fantasy story to solve a problem that we know is just a matter of learning to live with the truth, grief and the fact that we are right when very few people can see it. Just read Darwin’s laments over his discovery of evolution. It can be very lonely and triggering when one realises something that others don’t or won’t see. But I don’t think they can’t nor that they ultimately can’t learn to cope through learning to parent themselves.
This is not the same as dealing with starvation, which requires an actual thing, food, to solve. No amount of therapy without food will solve starvation. I am not making light of how difficult, challenging and painful recovering from being triggered by an existential crisis can be, but it also is an opportunity to examine your belief systems about what can make you happy or feel content. Just because we don’t know how to overcome a problem doesn’t mean that we can’t eventually learn. The truth may not solve your mental health problems and can even provoke a crisis for them but the solution is not to create a fantasy but rather to understand better how to deal with those problems.
The problem for big brained humans has always been how do we deal with the fact that reality does not measure up to the fantasies that we come to believe in as children. The problem is ultimately about getting achieving a PHD level of self understanding and achieving PHD level understanding is never easy or painless.Also, developing societal level tools to cope is a must, because papering over reality with fantasies is at best an interim solution. That is why the scientific method became so helpful. We have now got the tools to uncovered reality. Now we just need to develop the tools to cope with that reality, like we do with any newly discovered disease, and I believe denying its existence is not one of them.
Ha. well said. I would like to listen to you, if you had a channel. Stay safe.
Thanks for the endorsement, but I get stage fright too easily and I lack the self confidence and other resources. After all I am in therapy for a reason. There are a lot of good channels out there. I am just not sure I could do something that is sustainable.
Hey Britt, thanks for the great UA-cam videos. I've come to the same conclusions after about 25 years of progressing through these stages. I've just started your course Reconstructing Spirituality.
I really don't want to come across as antagonistic, but I see way too many problems in the things you're saying.
First off, I do understand where you're coming from regarding religion being an important part of how communities are built. Of course it is. But that doesn't mean that we can't build secular communities. Religion has had the headstart on secularism by literal millenia, so we can't expect things to just fall into place overnight. However, that is not cause to not even try. We still have a lot of work ahead of us, and just giving up will get us nowhere.
I do not mean to presume anything about you, but the things you say smack of having no understanding of what religious community and culture is like for those who cannot conform to its strict mandated standards. This warm and comforting sense of community and belonging is not accessible to anyone whose sexual or gender identity does not fit into the cookie cutter standards or heternormitivity, or even for those of us think critically and ask too many questions. The warm fuzzy feelings you speak of were never the experience of the millions who find themselves ostracized by their culture and even shunned by their very families because who they are is not acceptable. I am an ex-muslim, and I know that the majority of ex-Muslims are forced to live double lives, pretending to be something they are not, just to continue to live. This idea you seem to have about people living in societies where they have to remain religious to survive is completely wringheaded: these people aren't happily carrying on their lives as Muslims; they are atheists forced to live a lie.
You are committing the fallacy of seeing things from within your existing culture as the only possibility. While rare, majority secular societies do exist in the modern world; and all the datashows that they score the highest on all standard of living metrics. The majority of atheists in the modern world aren't struggling because we're atheists; we're struggling because of how the religious societies we live in treat us.
We all fully understand the complexities involved in people living their entire lives with their religious beliefs being frequently reinforced at every level of their social structures, and how that makes it extremely difficult to escape these beliefs. But that is only the case because of how much religion has infiltrated our cultures. You talk about how people have come to depend so much on belief in an afterlife or divine justice to cope with their adversities. But that is only the way things are now because people have been indoctrinated to believe such things.
I don't expect to convert everyone alive to atheism. But that isn't the point. What we need to do is work to build a world where newer generation won't fall into the same trap.
And have you noticed how condescending you are? Poor old grandma can't handle reality? Theists can't cope without the safety blanket of religion? Did you could how many times you literally infantilized theists? You compare them to a lost baby in the mall who had his pacifier taken away?! And atheism is a white privilige?!! Seriously?! Only white people can cope with the harsh truths of reality? Do you hear yourself?!!! But it's people like me apparently who talk like we're better than everyone else?! Give me a fucking break!
As for Neitzsche, I do not mean any disrespect to him as a thinker, but his opinion still remains only that: an opinion. He is not some prophet who could see the future of humanity. We are not guaranteed to fall into some abyss of dispaire without religion. The atheist community did admittedly fall into the trap of placing the Four Horsemen on a pedestal initially. And while they were respected thought leaders, they never were the Messiahs of secularism. Hawkins and Harris and their views are controversial among atheists, and it is likely that Hitchens and Dennett might be as well if they were still alive. And Ayan Hersi Ali's conversion to Christianity is highly controversial, with many pointing out that her stated motivations have nothing to do with the tenants of Christianity.
You also seem to fall into the camp that's decaying the great boogeyman of Islam coming to destroy our beloved "Western Secular Values", and holding up Christianity as the lesser evil necessary to protect us. This view is highly problematic for a variety of reasons.
It's times like this that make me wish I was a UA-camr just so I could upload my own response video.
I want to add to your comment regarding the "atheism is a privilege" part. She said something to the likes of people who have suffered=need religion or that atheists can survive without religion because they suffer less. I challenge that. I know religion and faith can be a tool for healing and coping. But I still challenge that part.
I wholeheartedly agree.
But I see the problem laid here as an American bias mostly.
I'm French and I discovered creationism as an adult because in France schools teach science and therefore evolution and there's no debate to have because the separation of Church and State is a real thing we have implemented for long enough.
Most of Europe is secular and I don’t think it's crumbling from nihilism.
Queer people have been creating communities because they have been ostracised by religious people and it's not "a one person at a time thing". NGOs and such are communities you can join and most of them are secular.
And, even though yes trying to promote atheism is not always the way to go, I can't endorse religion as the best of 2 evils. Religion and especially the American take on Protestantism is the worst thing a society can be based on. Look at what it is doing to your country! You are on the brink of a new civil war, every minority you can think of is more at risk than ever, some of your people in power talk about how slavery is not actually that bad when you think about it! How can you say that religion is not the cliff we are running towards?
I'm sorry your journey has been so painful but the society religion offers is the scariest thing I can think about as a queer, autistic non binary person. I will be dead if I lived in a religious lead country.
You can't just say: oh it's the best option for humanity. Which part of humanity? The white cis het part? Sure, but what about everyone else?
Religion has hatred of the other at the root of it. You cannot "keep the good parts". Religion is oppression and "just a bit of oppression" can never make a happy world.
Every positive social change was made despite religion. There is no baby in that bathwater.
Society needs to evolve past capitalism, past patriarchy, past religion. Yes, it may take time and our parasitic destruction of our planet may not afford us that time but it's the only path worth taking.
This discussion is thought-provoking.
This is so good. Thank you, Britt. Just as we shouldn’t top out in 101 classes we also shouldn’t quit using what we learned in them either. They’re all, from freshman to PhD, about being able to minimize suffering and oppression and maximize happiness.
Great insights. As a former Mormon, I definitely had my stage of being fully in atheism 101, but through some of the insights shared in your book, various episodes of yours, and many other resources, my ideas have continually evolved and I've gained some closure and made peace with some of the harmful side effects of my former fundamentalist religion. I've had to mourn the death of my many old beliefs that were largely rooted in hopeful but untrue narratives of faith inspiring faithful stories. Many of your insights helped me gain a healthier perspective on the benefits of religion so I could process the close relationships I still have with many family and friends who are still in the religion I chose to get out of. I still have some ways to go to be fully at peace but your content has helped me in many ways already. Thank you.
navigating relationships with those still in religion is worth consideration: I realize it's probably not worth it to try and explain natural selection to my parents.
Have you ever thought of going back to the religion?
@@timothyfowers nope. I like the idea of taking a lot of the tools that have historically been housed in religion and incorporating then in my own Spirituality as described by Britt in her book with some personal tweaks. What'd you have in mind?
@@scotth9822 I think for the marginalized like me I will go back to the religion
After deconverting from religion I never became an evangelist for atheism, but I will never remain silent and indifferent to religious preaching... "Gott mit uns"
Have you thought to make it extinct? Why?
Absolutely brilliant. Thank you for sharing the thought experiment. It lands a little differently for me as I’m not an ex-believer, I’ve been an atheist since childhood, but I have most definitely been grappling with nihilism since young adulthood.
Lots to ponder.
Woah you lost me. "...especially the children of atheists" is gonna need a source and a half.
This. My children are much happier since leaving religion.
@iSkulk I would like to see those sources too. I grew up atheist, and it stuck for my sibling and me. My two kids were raised atheist and so far it's stuck for them. It's only anecdotal, so I want to see actual data. I note that at this point it's been almost a week since your comment and no reply from Britt . She has replied to other comments since then, including to people talking about organized atheistic groups, saying they don't raise children within the group. This leaves me wondering if she's conflating being raised atheist with being raised atheist in some sort of organized group. Without sourcing, we cannot know.
Sweeping claims like that one need sources.
@amw6846 She's got a good enough head on her shoulders to see what we mean, I trust. I expect her views on this particular subject can change. Raising children within the structure that SOME religions CAN facilitate is likely to be beneficial for many of those children. That statement is vague enough to be inarguable to me, even without evidence at the ready. Anecdotally, speaking from the same place of intuition and fear that she is... most of the benefits one can get from religion are negative ones. For example, if you're religious in the community I grew up in, you get invited to more birthday parties. That would be a positive outcome, if not for the fact that it's only real because the Christian's were bullies.
I’m probably somewhere between 201 and 301. I think that getting to the graduate or phd levels are of interest to me. I definitely agree that seeking truth no matter the cost is a high priority for me. I still wish that we could find a way to live in peace with ourselves and the natural world.
Thanks Britt for the video. Thanks for pushing the conversation past "god's not real". Another thing that sometimes happens to those who reject Christianity is to become interested in other kinds of spirituality. Learn about Buddhism, Hinduism, Animism, or Pagan religious ideas etc. The reflexive rejection of all non Christian worldviews is also something I've noticed beginner atheists (coming from Christianity) cling to, and more mature atheists overcome. I thought this would have been worth mentioning in this video. Not everyone who recognizes the shortcomings of atheism necessarily thinks Christianity is exclusively the way forward. I prefer to imagine a new approach to religion where we try to learn from the best parts of all religions and carry something new forward that is more consistent with the knowledge we have today. The Unitarian's are the closest I've found in the US to enacting that vision in a structured communal way.
“High core truth” as not a choice nailed me! I am one of those that embrace nihilism as freedom compared to an endless cycle of reincarnation or an “afterlife” that mirrors this realm ( but happier?). I thank you for such a great talk.
I love this! I'm an atheist with a background in non denominational evangelical Christianity, but I have been thinking about getting involved in a local progressive Presbyterian church. Just to see if there is room for a secular person in a Christian space. I'm hopeful
I guess I'm probably around the 301 level. I appreciate the challenging ideas.
I do have to say that there are a few assumptions here that I'm not entirely ready to grant. Atheists are less happy. Secular society can't take the place of religious society. Some people *need* religious thinking. (although anytime a statement has "some people" it is in fact almost always true - for *some* people; the degree to which we plan for that varies a lot though. There are *some* people who become much happier when a doctor amputates their perfectly healthy limb, but no one thinks it should be practiced any more widely than absolutely necessary.) Mostly I'll just say that just because we haven't done something yet doesn't necessarily mean that we *can't* do it.
In the mean time, if you're an atheist, teach your children to value truth, look for meaning in the simple things, and always make sure they have a community and loved ones nearby.
I really don't like things like "some groups of people need belief" stated as fact.
What I would say is this: Deconversion is a rough road and challenging others' faith in rough times is a jerk move. This also goes for trying to convert people from their faith to yours if you're religious. Often people get some measure of comfort from the familiar if nothing else, and unmooring someone in a tough time is not doing them a service. In addition, community is important and sometimes non believers will stick in a church structure to keep their community. If someone has recently moved, etc, finding a community that feels like home can be a real touchstone. There's a reason that many groups working with refugees want volunteers to stay away from inviting the refugees to their church and the like.
Atheists are less happy? That should REALLY depend on who you talk to, shouldn’t it? Otherwise, that’s a false generalization.
I’m MUCH happier now being an atheist. No regrets whatsoever. I’m not saying it makes life any easier, but it does make it simpler. And I’ll take that over religion any day.
Love this series and this episode in particular. Speaking only for myself (naturally), yes, ultimate truth is definitely worth the associated cost since nothing is more sad and depressing to live under than delusion-it’s own kind of abject abyss, really.
And the presence of death, happily, supports this conviction. Life is lovelier with death at the end having accentuated it. I don’t crave converts to this perspective, I just enjoy its place in my singular soul (along with other delightments).
Do keep those thought experiments coming, please and thank you.
Hi Britt. Loved the podcast. Love the insights you provide. I found myself agreeing with pretty much everything. I'm 57 and was in Southern Baptist worldview for most of my life, worked my way out of the Biblical "God" mindset over the last 10 years, but definitely see the value this mindset brings to so many...especially my parents & extended family. So I don't try to convince any of them with anything. I guess I take the "PhD" approach with them. Anyway, always love and learn from your insights
Have some societies successfully transitioned to atheist society? Northern Europe seems to have made the transition to secularism.
I agree. I don’t see it going this way.
I'm seeing secular societies fairing way better than highly religious ones in every measurable way.
Health, happier, less domestic violence, sexual violence, teen pregnancy, abortion rates, general living conditions, education levels, the list goes on.
It is argued that atheism is bad for birth rates.
Yeah we're doing pretty well up here
This is the most honest and insightful video I’ve seen in a very long time. I resonated with every single point and think they were all spot on. Thank you so much for making this!
I really liked the quote about how many religious people are already atheistic about other religious gods. So true- we are all atheists, really. LOL It seems like coming to grips with no religion is 1000 times harder for people who once believed the myths. I wasn't raised as an atheist. I did have exposure to several religions growing up and through my life (Catholic, LDS, New Age, Buddhism, Pagan, SDA, Protestant, Fundamentalist and others (one of my brothers is a Baptist minister), however I was innately skeptical so I never fully succumbed to the dogma. There is no scary 'void' for me without 'god' in my life.. There are plenty of community, secular clubs, organizations and activities out there and I don't shun traditional holidays like Christmas/Easter because there are plenty of secular rituals associated with them so I don't feel a loss. I do enjoy your videos. They are interesting and thought provoking.
Hmm. I think this only applies to those that end up in nihilism.
When I left the church, I was relieved. A lifetime of fear of hell was taken away. I was finally free to make choices without considering what a scary God would think of them. I didn’t have to walk around feeling guilty for not saving others souls.
I don’t fear death, only dying. I’m a hospice nurse and I see it constantly. What’s to fear of nothingness? It’s a lot less scary than hell and how I spend the last 14+ billions of years. Maybe it is because I’m privileged, but I really think the world is better off without religion. I think a lot of secular societies are thriving while the US is a mess 🤷🏼♀️
Great video! I’m excited for your video of determinism vs free will
Very well done. This resonated with me. I deconstructed and ultimately deconverted 3 years ago. I kept deconstructing, and following things to their logical conclusions, now I am a hard determinalist and nihilist. I feel overall worse off now than when I was blissfully ignorant, and yeah, it all surrounds death. I wish I could go back to a time before I knew too much, but there's no way back since we can't choose our beliefs.
it'll help alot to see the humor in it all, the irony.
Where did you get your degrees and certification?
I pulled this from her website. I hope it helps to answer your question. "My undergraduate focus was Medieval Exegesis, which was really working with scriptures in all its complexity, layers, and nuance. My Master's Degree was under theologian Thomas Oord at Northwind Theological Seminary in Applied Theology: Gen Z Spirituality and the Future of American Religion. I have an almost Doctorate (ABD) in Open and Relational Theology from the same program."
@@jaclynlevy5644 Thanks. I must have missed that when looking.
I appreciate this. I don’t have a well formed opinion yet though. I wish humans could unify behind ideas that correspond with reality but it’s hard to compete with a well crafted narrative. Particularly one that solves your existential fears.
12:11 How much of this is the lack of accountability/responsibility being taught? It’s lacking in religion too, but the illusion of it is utilized. So belief or not, there should be a better baseline of propriety (laws) that don’t require bigoted behavior expectations maybe?
That's what I'm also wondering. When one becomes an atheist, does that mean do whatever? I went back and read the last part of your comment and edited mine. What does those baseline laws look like for both theists and atheist?
@ I would say that accepting that “unknown” is the only honest answer with any authority about God’s existing is key.
That all life we know of in the universe is dependent upon one ecosystem, the planet earth & since all life depends on the continued functioning of that ecosystem which includes the life within it, we should have its best interest over our own in our actions & choices, because that would be in our best interests as a living thing.
Those two things allow for religious ideologies to exist and to be honest about reality at the same time. It is not taking away anyone’s beliefs, its reprioritizing them for positive things over more negative things in the current structuring, while forcing nonbelievers to a standard too.
@ Technically we are all born atheists until we are cognitive enough to understand and ponder the concept. I choose to think gods do not exist in reality, because most of the evidence points towards them being unnecessary as we mere mortals define them. I have always been the one who made my own choices & suffered the consequences of them & often enough the consequences of others choices, so I don’t quite understand why you would think that I just do whatever I want. Your are gods chosen and forgiven all sin, do you just get to go out and do whatever you want because it’s forgiven? I assume you follow an Abrahamic god religious structure based on how to writings for your choice making, but I just use logic and reason towards those two laws I mentioned above when vetting my decisions.
I choose to live every day trying to make sure on my deathbed that I have no regrets & that the future generations have a better chance than I did because I tried to make it that way for them as much as possible. So I live everyday in that purpose without a god as motivation, but life as my motivation. I have great love for and respect for life and it’s intricacies. Being without a god belief didn’t rob me of anything, it made existence more wondrous and special & more worthy of my dedication to making more responsible choices.
????
religious folk wouldn't agree with your base assertion:
"all life we know of in the universe is dependent upon one ecosystem, the planet earth"
@@kariannecrysler640
excellent!
I love your content on TikTok. Just followed here ❤❤❤
Wow, there is so much densely packed wisdom here - a very articulate and well presented masterclass in 34 minutes. It all rings true for me and helps me along in my journey as a lifelong atheist wrestling with how so many accept religious truth claims and how humanity can best move forward. Thank you, and please keep up the great work!
be sure to read thru the excellent comments here!
This is incredibly insightful stuff your saying. I'm amazed at your courage. I'm literally afraid to say things like this, though I believe it's true, because most of my " friends " would abandon me. Great video. It's helpful to know that curious people are out there.
This is one of the best channels on UA-cam.
Exactly! What I’ve been hoping for in all of these YT clips. Very good summary! Thx!
Thank you Brit. Appreciate you so much
I like what you're doing here. I'm not sure the lack of evidence (an existing atheist culture) means it's impossible. Thinking of a nature connection program started by John Young that is non theistic. My participation in those circles that focus on raising children suggests that theism isn't erased in a day, that it's awkward at the beginning, but that deep human connection and meaning is more of an emergent property than one delivered through religious formalities.
Appreciate the warnings of what else happens could be worse. Nationalism has been devastating.
Good stuff! I enjoy the open mind approach instead of a closed minded attitude of being ‘absolutely’ right. For me it has been helpful to relook the definition of God. Approaching life and the experience of consciousness as an aspect of the infinite is helpful and approaching a state of unity and oneness with life/ consciousness/ pure being has been helpful whatever definition one gives it. Getting past, through, in, and beyond the “I, ME, Mine” approach of life gives it a challenge and wonder without the dogma of definition. Sending lots of encouragement and gratitude!
Great channel and brilliant insights. Personally, I’m not a fan of ranking things based on what ultimately comes down to human opinion. It reminds me of when my son came home from VBS and met a girl who was Catholic. He asked her what a Catholic is, and she replied, "Well, it’s basically the highest level of Christian."
oh my goodness, the girl's response made me laugh. If you asked "what is a Baptist" or "what is a Mormon" they'd answer it the same way. Funny how we delude ourselves, and then delude ourselves again when we leave religion thinking that now we're the ones who are the best! Good point about being cautious ranking based on human opinion.
I was constantly butting heads with my "fellow" atheist back in the mid 2000s (when I used social media) because I would sometimes raise similar ideas.
I love this video so so much, brilliant way to teach this. For me, the way in which I can stay dialectical, which is how I organize my world, is accepting that it is what is. It cannot be any other way because it was caused to be that way, even if I don’t know the cause. Religious people are religious because they have a reason to be. There was so much validation about both the value and challenges of “both”, but also I never could figure out why secular humanism doesn’t work and the beauty of secular Judaism 🤯 Additionally my favorite quote is it dies with your effort 😢 I want a community but I don’t want to actively have to keep it together. I would love to have a community center that had every offer a church does ❤❤ Thank you!!!
Religious people are religious because they believe they don't have a reason not to be ????
@ yes?! This was very poorly written on my part but we need to change the causes to change outcomes. That’s my sentiment.
I think there’s a lot of truth and value in what you’re saying. But I would like to raise an objection: I think you mischaracterized nihilism for a lot of people. I find my nihilism freeing, not hopeless And on the other hand, my religious upbringing gave me at least as much terror of going to hell as it did comfort.
I completely agree. To elaborate would require too much to get into here. Very sound thought experiment, excellent. :)
I deconstructed from biblical, calvinistic christianity and I’m more or less an atheist now. I feel an urge to write and publish about my deconstruction and the lies I’m told. My wife (still a christian) don’t want me to do that. She says it will hurt her. I don’t want to hurt her. We are hapily married. Do you have any advice?
I'm not a therapist so I wouldn't dare offer advice. But from my experience in mixed faith marriages, the person in religion is often scared and subconsciously concerned about your journey and where it's going. The best way to deal with that is learn about what their fear is and assuage that fear so that she feels more confident that your journey doesnt end the marriage. I have a video on here called Talking to your believing family members or something like that, you may find it helpful.
@ Thank you. Sounds good. I tried something like that. 😊 The problem is: I can easily say my future publishing would not hurt her and our childrens life, but I can’t guarantee that 😅
If you don’t talk about it to her, then the children are essentially dictating the speech and behaviour of the adults.
Who needs to run the world, the children or the adults?
If you don’t talk about it to her, then the children are essentially dictating the speech and behaviour of the adults.
Who needs to run the world, the children or the adults?
@@MichielDutch
She can't guarantee that she won't end up in hell either.
So don't worry about it, there's only 1 guarantee in life, we ALL die.
I'm married to a Lutheran Pastors daughter, she fell pregnant 26yrs ago at the age of 16, we're grandparents now because that baby (our son) had his first son 3 years ago.
I was an Atheist when we met, she was a brainwashed pastors daughter, went to church sometimes multiple times a week, taught Sunday school, worked at a private Lutheran college (so did i at one point) the whole works.
Me being an Atheist and her being a Christian and having a father as a Pastor never once caused a problem for us, she understands why I don't believe and I understand why she does, and that's it, we never discuss it, there's no reason to.
Now she's a little older, she no longer attends church, God has less influence in her life, ive never asked her but it wouldn't surprise me if she no longer believes.
She lives life as if she no longer believes, if anything I talk about God as an Atheist more than she does.
If you love each other and understand and respect each other then I don't see why your different beliefs should effect your relationship.
Be kind to each other but be honest about how you feel and if you don't need to talk about it, don't.
Only on very few occasions have I felt the need to talk about it.
Excellent analysis and discussion. Very insightful and thought provoking
Totally agree with most of what you said. Some folks need religion and would be scary without it. I wouldn’t want to take delusion away from them unless it hurts others. We’re such superstitious beings. It’s a struggle some days to care about day to day activities when it probably doesn’t matter. I regularly go to sleep and kind of wish I didn’t wake up but there are others that depend on me so I go on. It sounds dark but I enjoy most days.
Loved this thoughtful video! I was just talking with a couple of friends about how/if the effectiveness of shares myths to mobilize groups of people can be replicated in a more secular way-and I started to speculate on how replacing “faith” in a shared myth with “hope” in an unknown end/future could be one possible route. For instance, I wonder if enough it would be possible to organize people who are invested in creating a more communal society to meet regularly and mobilize based on a shared hope/vision/goal for the future-even if it is somewhat delusional/idealistic-it would be more akin to a shared hope than a shared faith. I don’t know if there are any good instances like this that exist in any secular cultures these days, but maybe that’s something that modern and future secular cultures could be ready for.
Really similar to my own experience, except it took me longer for my views to evolve along these lines. I've held on longer to feelings and ideas ranging from an early sense of being a bewildered victim of cultural oppression, developing into an arrogant superiority based on what I thought was an enlightened willingness to confront difficult truths in an attempt to examine reality objectively, and then giving way to a resigned acceptance of apparently irreconcilable differences of perception and reasoning that seem to shape the way people experience the world...differences that seem to be deeper than simple matters of conscious choice. And that seems to leave me in a position similar to what you may be talking about here. I wonder whether it's the same basic attitude that seems to unite philosophy from Socrates through Joni Mitchell: "I don't know who l am, But you know, life is for learning"
1. I’m genuinely impressed that you got through this whole 34 minute presentation without making a single reference to The Matrix.
2. My thoughts as I was getting to the end were of the possible need for a community of atheists to provide connection and support to each other. Not in a secular church way (I have also attempted that, and I agree that it cannot provide the narratives necessary for widespread adoption on the scale of churches), but more like a Nihilist Anonymous way - a peer support group for those of us who cannot access the support offered by religious groups. And also offering a welcoming space for those who choose to deconstruct from religion. Do you think such a thing would be useful?
Definitions... "what do you mean by...(insert your word or words)"... my dad would ask this consistently. So many times, as Brit does so well, we have to define what we mean... we have to clarify what it is we're trying to say and ask questions like, "What do you mean by..." and to remember, that no one person or book has the entirety of all there is, or knows all there is about a single subject.
As a former fundamentalist Christian of 30 years and an atheist of over 10 years and now 49 years old. I don’t feel better than Christians because I’m an atheist. I feel better than them because I’m not a bigot. I don’t tell people they deserve hell. I don’t deny science. I don’t try to take other people’s rights away like Christian Nationalists. There are far more reasons to feel better than just being an atheist. The only thing I miss is not believing in god but the idea of believing in an afterlife. I also don’t believe in free will but that doesn’t mean that Christians that are causing harm shouldn’t go unpunished. I disagree with you completely that hard core atheism is worse than hard core fundamentalist religions. The harm of Christianity especially fundamentalist Christianity historically shows how horrible it can be. Honestly I find myself disagreeing a lot with you on your videos. I do find some useful information but a lot of it I think is incorrect.
I feel exactly the same way as you do on this video.. you are spot on ,, Bravo for calling out the "expert" hence why we should not follow or believe in any one else's comprehensions and value it more than our own
ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT ...Thank you Britt Hartley
Damn, I found this channel at just the right time of my life.
23:32 The brain fully develops mid twenties and sadly many brains don’t have adulting abilities when this happens, making the brain response more emotional & childlike. You see this in adult tantrums or outbursts with name calling or threatening others. It’s more often a lack of knowledge or understanding about who & what responsibilities are.
I agree with this. I'm not an atheist, but do not believe in religion. God's existence is separate from man's attempt to control and cause fear based compliance.
Finding peace while still examining and seeking truth is important.
Many of us spent years trying to fit the mold, it always felt off to me.
Thanks for your content.
I'd like to point out that not all religion is theistic. Taoism and Buddhism have no gods, except in certain popular, more ignorant and superstitiously ritualized versions. Hinduism also exists on a spectrum from deep philosophical sophistication to a whole pantheon of gods that some people regard as metaphors for general aspects of ontological reality and others take as literal silly gods to which you can pray, sacrifice, and get results.
I'm an atheist and a philosophical Taoist. I regard the God concept as one of the most pernicious and destructive constructs of the human mind, because it organizes the reality of sentient beings into a hierarchical chain of power and privilege with a totalitarian God figure at the top. Nothing good comes from this aspect of religion. The Tao is not a god or an entity of any kind. It is a metaphor for the deep character of reality which is, and most probably must remain, unknown and mysterious to us in terms of being able to ever construct it as a comprehensive set of declarative propositions. The Tao is also the way (tao means way) that we should live in the face of this mystery. It is not a thing, not a personality, not a mechanism at the heart of reality.
However, the deep philosophical meaning I find in Taoism, from which I develop further spiritual correlates on my own, fulfills the psychological needs that you ascribe to theistic religion-- for instance, it gives me a way to be reconciled to death and rescues me from nihilistic despair, all without my needing to acquire superstitious and magical constructs of reality. So, you might say I have my own religion, but it has no hocus-pocus entities, voodoo practices for manipulating reality, or beliefs in a fictional afterlife.
You may be correct that humanity needs religion, but I see no reason that that religion needs to be theistic or magical in character, abrogating the character of reality that we learn about through science. I have Christian friends that attempt to construct a more enlightened religious philosophy through the vehicle of Christianity, and they do well enough for themselves in that their version of Christianity supports their moral character as persons and provides the comforts of mind that you allude to.
However, I feel that their clinging to Christianity burdens them in certain ways-- in particular the God construct requires a bizarre and irrational metaphysical framework that cannot be reconciled to a valid exploration of cosmological physics; the God concept continues to provide a philosophical grounding for oppressive relationships between humans and between humans and nature; and their Christianity ties them to the egregious scriptures of Abrahamic religion which are rife with mythical narrative justifications for violence, misogyny, slavery, and the subjugation of the natural world. Validating these scriptures provides cover and legitimation for more literal and barbarous uses of these texts.
So, I think that you make a mistake in conflating a need for religion with a need for God. We can have spiritual practice, meditation, unifying community ritual, practically supportive religious institutions, and verbal formulae to comfort ourselves and each other without daddy genies in the sky. Other cultures have done this. The people in Zen monasteries are not sitting in there praying to gods. Nietzche was wrong about the death of God. That wouldn't be the death of the valuable aspects of religion. We don't need our religion in the crude, coercive, and butt-ignorant form of theism.
I agree with you that atheists shouldn't attack theism with arrogant aggressiveness, but we need to chip away at its foundations tirelessly until it is gone, simultaneously working to create a humane version of what religion so ineptly and blindly provided in the past. Atheism isn't a coextensive set overlap with materialist reductionism or moral nihilism. It's the rejection of a belief in gods.
We dont need either.
If theists want to claim that everybody has some inherent responsibility or obligation to everyone else's welfare, then the burden of proof is on them to demonstrate that. Otherwise its just another unsubstantiated and unscientific faithbased religious beliefs.
The claim that human life has intrinsic value is a distinctly theistic presupposition that has never been empiricaly demonstrated to be true , and so demonstratably isn't.
We dont need either.
If theists want to claim that everybody has some inherent responsibility or obligation to everyone else's welfare, then the burden of proof is on them to demonstrate that. Otherwise its just another unsubstantiated and unscientific faithbased religious beliefs.
The claim that human life has intrinsic value is a distinctly theistic presupposition that has never been empiricaly demonstrated to be true , and so demonstratably isn't.
Britt excellent dialogue and thank you.
Brilliantly expressed!
I need to be with this for a while, maybe revisit it.
Yea. I can see the fear of death. I guess my experience was using the fear of death to control you now. Not bringing you any comfort, constant fear of judgement, constant fear of not being saved, constant fear of hell. I guess as Hitchens said I don’t fear death, but I fear dying. Religion for me never brought me any comfort no joy, just put my mind into a pretzel and made me lose touch with reality, myself, I felt more connected to life before religion then I did when I entered it. It felt like it was so much about controlling behavior, what you believed and destroying your sense of self
This is an interesting clip, but I have to ask: Britt, are you suggesting that without belief in a supernatural authority figure, civil society might not function properly? Do we have to resort to magical thinking to build families and communities with customs and traditions passed on from generation to generation?
@@MisterK714 that’s the question.
Thank you for the thoroughts. I was thinking along similar lines while visiting family of late. They are so entrenched and find peace in their practice that it would be wrong to disabuse them of it. However, I still chafed at their presumptions, as a core of peace for them im good, but as a political and socially exclusive worldview, I'm not good. Also, i think atheists need to try harder at building supportive and kindly vocal communities and allies.
Never heard of many of those people/sayings you list in stage one.
My step 2 was realizing all those stories are just entertaining myths- some with morals, many without. 3. Don't think people are better off with religion. People are better off facing truth but I allow people their own lifestyle choices. Never understood your focus on nihilism and the void. Life is amazing. Morality does not require religion- most of those things you list do not need religion. We disagree on secularism. Carl Sagan day is Nov 9th.
100% - excellent.
Brilliant video, Britt.
Don't over-analyze. We life- long atheists just want everyone to grow the f*** up!
Thanks so much for posting Brit. I've recently discovered your work and find it hugely thought provoking. On this piece, I wonder whether a shared sense of purpose (based on tangible common conditions) might have the power to facilitate the social cohesion that religion historically has?
I’m not so sure that you’re coming from an unbiassed point of view. Most of the society has been under the influence of religion and secularity has not really had a chance to even be supported so to compare the two when it’s mostly been religious is kind of not quite treating the argument equally and it’s like arguing from a box I think when you open the lid and you allow the truth and the reality ofwhat life is all about, it would develop without the hinderance of religion into its own form of community and it would be widely supported the more people got involved with it
Community with secularism does not really happen because of the smothering effect and separating effect that religion imposes on humanity
I like what you have done in bringing the different levels of understanding atheism however, I see religion as a crutch, and after you’re healed, you don’t need it anymore so to prolong it is not really a good direction. It’s only coping for now and I get that but our future for an advancement where we’re all together on and understanding that’s honest we eventuallywould leave religion and still keep the fictional joy of storytelling and that part of it for sure.
People should not have had the religious security blanket in the first place
I don’t know why you think knowing makes you miserable. I totally disagree with that.
I feel extremely enlightened and happy and so gracious towards life in all of its truthful, understanding and nihilism is a part of that where until there’s evidence to show something different rest would be a pseudo experience. It’s so easy to be completely content with honesty and truthfulness.
I have come to these same thoughts at year 3 of deconstruction.
I have really started to wonder if Goodness is more valuable than Truth……….
I wish you would do a similar video explaining the understanding of free will. I feel I have significant knowledge gaps understanding free will when you explain it.
I am wondering what your sources are for the information about children of atheists? I am in Canada so there are a lot of secular people and communities so maybe it’s a difference between the countries?
100%
don't believe that for a second. not my experience at all - and i've got atheists of all stripes all around me.