Because the modern Western world cannot fathom non-dual thinking, we can't imagine how Christendom could blend Greek and Roman culture into itself in a way that didn't convolute or contradict Christ as the center. Modern Christianity imagines Christ is the Great Excluder, while ancient Christianity saw Christ as the Great Includer.
I’m not sure if it’s even that. I’m Protestant, but I’m having to come to grips with this stuff myself. One of the main ideas of the Reformation is that no Christian is to be excluded from total devotion to our Almighty, Holy Creator. Total devotion is not simply for monks, nuns, priests, and pastors. That being said, the emphasis on personal devotion was recovered (necessitating total personal salvation being guaranteed in Christ’s work alone, coming before our devotion, cf. justification in solus Christus), but as time passed devotion became an exclusively individualistic idea without any concern for public/corporate devotion. This seems to cause some confusion about what Jesus did in redemption, as my fellow Protestants (especially Calvinists, like me) seem to understand redemption exclusively in individualistic terms, whereas from what I can see all of Scripture portrays Christ’s act of redemption on both a cosmic/corporate level and on an individual level. In that sense, I see the nondualism, as both unity and multiplicity are accounted for in Jesus’s saving work (i.e. Jesus is the last Adam). EDIT: This isn’t meant to imply universalism, i.e. no one is going to hell; everything will be fine in heaven. Rather, there should be a more mature wrestling with Jesus being God and man in one Person, the union of heaven and earth. As a beloved Dutch pastor I had years ago once said, “Some dust from earth now is on the throne of heaven.” Or, in another way, this world that is against Jesus is ruled by Jesus. The gods of this world hate Jesus, but Jesus is their Master whom they must obey. Jesus is Lord, even if Caesar wants it otherwise. Jesus is the only true Caesar, even if the false Caesars fail to recognize Him. The false Caesars may destroy the body, but the only True Caesar can destroy both body and soul in hell. False Caesars ought not to be worshipped as types of Christ, because Caesar cannot rule both heaven and earth, body and soul, even if he claims to rule over both. Christ is not like Caesar, but Caesar is like Christ. Christ is not like Adam, but Adam is like Christ. We honor our ancestors and our kings, but it is impossible to live while regarding a creature as the author of life and death. To do so would be to submit to Cain, the murderer-king of Enoch, rather than to Christ, the Redeemer-Lord of heaven and earth.
@@Sockheadableful I’m sorry I don’t know what lecture it was from, but I promise you he said it. Its stuck in my head for years now. He said something like the entire western world is suffering from PTSD as a result of the absolute shock of it. UA-cam has ruined their own site so its become difficult to search for specific quotes like that anymore. I think it may have been a Q and A section of a biblical lecture.
It still came as a shock. There was also the realization that the rest of Europe would be next. The Ottomans were on the march and no one could stop them (see the battle of Nicopolis where the joined strength of Europe was wiped out. It is said that the future Queen Isabella, who was a child at the time of the fall of Constantinople, made it her life goal to recover the impetus for Christendom. According to Kirsten Downeys biography of her the fall of the city looked large. Granada(the revenge), Columbus, and the new world - the intention of which to outflank Islam from the east, the Spanish conquest of Italy and the marital alliance with the Holy Roman Empire were its fruits. Remember that the Turks were stopped with Vienna when it was under Charles V, isabella’s grandson using Spanish tercios and German landsknechts.
I hope that the Salvation Cathedral in Bucharest, the worlds largest Orthodox cathedral recently constructed, will last 1000 years. Many people have been attacking the project because of the cost, saying that we need more hospitals and less cathedrals, as if they are mutually exclusive. Mircea Eliade would be proud of it ☦️
Ah, the history that fundamentalists and village-Atheists don't know about. The other half of the Roman Empire's legacy (besides the Holy Roman Empire) that was more technologically and culturally advanced than other societies-- and thoroughly Christian. If the dark ages myths weren't already obviously fictive, this would be the answer to it.
@@TheThreatenedSwan Later on it was. By then, it was a shadow of its former self. Which led it to being sacked by crusaders and later taken by the Turks
Marketability and production cost, a network did try and do a TV show based on the King David story with a Game of Thrones style of production but this just alienated audiences, Christians aren't too keen on high level s** and violence shown to them and secular audiences are not necessarily interested in biblical stories even when there's no preaching in them.
@Prometheus Guy Dreamworks made The Prince of Egypt and Joseph King of Dreams, arguably two of the best animated biblical movies and nobody went to watch them so they stopped making biblically orientated movies.
@Prometheus Guy one can hope there are creative Christians out there keen to make Christian movies, I myself and writing a script for a Johan and The Giant Fish, a wholesome comedy, think Nicholas Cage as Nohan running away from God and failing everytime until he gives up and agrees to go along with God's plan.
Greetings friends. Cambridge Scholars is a providing 25% discount on the hardcover if you purchase from their website and use the promo code at the end of this link: www.cambridgescholars.com/news/item/book-in-focus-from-the-ancient-near-east-to-christian-byzantium-kings-symbols-and-cities I hope this is helpful. Thanks for your interest and support!
Cardinal Bessarion's donation of his Greek manuscript library to Venice was directly mined for the publications of Aldus Manutius & his Aldine Press. Many Greek classics had their editio princeps by his press, including the Septuigant
Great conversation! Super fun to listen to. It's amazing how Christianity from the beginning always appreciated what came before. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria and Origin all spoke as to how truth it's not exclusive to Christianity or Judaism. How what is true is true regardless of who and how it was discovered..
This is something I've been wondering about a lot recently. I'm looking for some good material on Constantine too so if anyone has a biography or source recommendations on Constantine please drop them in a sub-comment.
There's *Defending Constantine: The Twilight of an Empire and the Dawn of Christendom* by Peter Leithart (also a Calivinist and someone associated with the Theopolis Institute). That title is somewhat misleading, it deals with a much broader subject material than merely responding to anti-Constantinian sentiments. I'd recommend that.
John Strickland’s “Age of Paradise” was mind-blowing for me, though definitely geared toward a popular audience. Alternatively, his podcast on Ancient Faith radio covers much the same material: “Paradise and Utopia”.
Just in time for the day we commemorate Constantine! Really nice to see Jonathan’s allusions to architecture as symbolic of reality be fleshed out a bit more.
55:55 That's a GREAT way to put it. Another example of there being material that Orthodox Byzantium could handle and the West couldn't is the works of Aristotle. Aristotle had his place in the East (St. John of Damascus, St. Gregory Palamas, St. Mark of Ephesus, and St. Gennadius Scholarius were all excellent students of Aristotle), but as soon as his work reaches the West, it utterly overwhelms their intellectual sphere and you have them scrambling to try and integrate it. Result: Thomism, and, following it, Enlightenment empiricism, and then our disenchanted western world. Obviously I'm simplifying, but this is another good example of this point Dr. Baghos makes here.
The West could not handle Jerusalem either. Regardless of the crusader defeat though, we still can't stop writing about them. And I think you will find the same pattern all over history. Men of the West are given a thing, and take it to the extreme.
@Charm Ming What do these things have to do with barbarian roots? I would rather blame them on over-civilisation than barbarism. Anyways, it is always easy to use selected atrocities and injustice as a means to define an entire group. In reality, all those things you mention were met with resistance and rejection.
Hmm... there is something to be said of the overall psychological differences between East and West of the post-Roman world but there is a tad too much rose-tinted viewing of Byzantium occurring in this comment section in general. Enlightenment seems to wax and wane across times and across regions. The period of Gothic cathedral building might represent one of those enlightened times in the West where society's collective attention (from kings to craftsmen to peasants) was directed towards recognizing and participating in the hierarchy between heaven and earth (as well as all the other patterns that manifest themselves over time).
Wonderful exposition on Constantinople. You mentioned the Spear of Constantine (aka Spear of Destiny). That would make for an interesting discussion in itself.
My mind is blown now. First, I feel robbed by the university I graduated from in the 1980s that they never made me learn anything about Homer, Virgil, Plato, and Aristotle. I read them on my own later. But it was never part of the curriculum. Second, the Scandinavian name for Constantinople was Mittlegard? That’s a cognate of Middle-earth. What hath Middle-earth to do with Eastern Orthodoxy? But then when you mentioned the differences of attitude toward women whom the West might regard as witches, I was reminded of one of my favorite LotR quotes: “Do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that were once needful for the wise to know.” (Celeborn) How came Tolkien’s eyes so bright? if you will. How did a guy raised by an Anglo-Catholic priest become so influenced by Eastern Christian thought?
36:04 "exchange of stories"? Vikings were capable seafarers, they didn't just hear the stories, they actually were in Constantinople. There are even runes carved into Hagia Sophia from the 9th century. It's kind of funny, like ancient graffiti.
Fr. John Strickland’s “Paradise And Utopia” is four book series that interprets the cultural history of Christendom from Pentecost to modern times through an Orthodox lens. The city of Constantine plays a major role in that story. The accompanying podcast is excellent as well. I can’t recommend it enough!
I feel humbled. I had always been taught that Constantine pseudo Christianised the Roman Empire. That somehow he was the beginning of a perverse mixture of paganism and Christianity. This is the first time I’ve ever heard more positive spin on things. Please keep up this kind of content
They must teach history differently in school now. I learned that it was the capital of the Byzantine Empire which was Christian and controlled the West and East. Beautiful cathedrals and chapels and amazing religious art. It is iconic in world history.
It seems the group "Kansas" got a glimmering. This from their album "Somewhere to Elsewhere" the song "Byzantium": "Byzantium" City resting on a hill Can your walls repel the tide of change Under Pantocrator's rule Did your golden domes reveal The frailty of the consequence The conqueror was real Where the Emperor once reigned Only shadows of the glories remain No one sings your plaintive song Of the Kontakion strain Echoing through heaven's gate Too lovely to sustain We're looking back to see your frescoed walls Where is the road that takes us to Byzantium Once your borders had no end And your dream was like a shining light To the nations you surround Did your golden domes reveal The frailty of the consequence The conqueror was real
Constantinople was the jewel of a brilliant empire. And I totally understand why it deserves full scholarly (if I may use the word) attention. When you talk about the Trojan legend and its role in history, or about the unparalleled embodiment of the Orthodox faith, even in the last days of the Byzantine dynasty, it blows my mind. Or Constantine, was he really aware of what he was doing? Was he separating church and state, or was he unintentionally creating a new state and church? What is the role of Jerusalem in the Byzantine story? What I am also interested in after this talk, is the actual Byzantine Empire during the European middle ages and especially after the establishment of Islam. Why were so many people in Egypt, Judea, and the Levant looking at the muslims as liberators? Why was the empire depending on European manpower to fend off invaders? Some kind of rot must have set in right after Justinian the Great. Was it the hubris of building a heaven on earth?
@@TheThreatenedSwan "bYzAnTiNe eMpIrE wAs eXtReMeLy CoRruPt" What society doesn't decline and eventually fall after 1123 years of existence? "iT jUsT sTaGnaTeD" Only a person without knowledge of the ERE would say that. I bet you can't even name significant events in its history, yet you imply that you know all about it.
That is impossible, since the empire survived for another 900 years. The real decline set in after Basil II with a short recovery during the Comnenian dynasty in the 12th century.
Constantinople is just wiped from memory for most of the west it seems. Old Rome is common knowledge but not new Rome for some reason. Great talk, gentlemen.
The significance of the translation movement of texts from Arabic into Latin is not so much the reintroduction of Aristotle and Plato. Rather, the works of Averroes(Ibn rushed) and Avicenna (Ibn Sina) were viewed as philosophically important in their own right. It's not for nothing that Aquinas refers to Ibn Rushd as the Commentator ( on Aristotle)
The great Victorian scholar John Mason Neale was also a novelist, and Theodora Phranza aka The Fall of Constantinople was regarded as deserving of a place in the original Everyman's Library books. These were kind of the Penguin Classics of a century and more ago. Neale was deeply interested in and learned about the Orthodox Church -- there is a whole book, published by Cambridge University Press, called John Mason Neale and the Quest for Sobornost about this topic. I haven't yet read the novel (the Quest for Sobornost book was good), but thought I would mention it. Sometimes a well-researched historical novel can be an agreeable way to learn about an historical subject.
Constantine’s true intentions of adopting Christianity by researching the one thing he left in the world that expresses his true consciousness, at that time, the famous Arch of Constantine.
Could someone explain to me the part where they speak about the tombs of the martyrs being built outside the city despite the fact that the martyrs had been killed inside the city? Why did Constantine build churches outside the city, on the place of the martyrs' tombs instead building them inside? Sorry if I missed the point and thanks for the answers.
It's funny when you start talking about modern city symbolism, especially in the U.S. and other colonial nations; I realized that the city I grew up in, Chicago, was founded as a trading post, and many other cities were as well. There's quite a bit of symbolism in there, I'd imagine.
@@bespinboi7523 people are liking his comment and responding to him while pretending that he isn't overtly hostile and contemptuous. They took Constantinople and they are always hungry for more. We're always hungry to lose and to play by the rules. When are people gonna understand that we have enemies? That actual, particular human beans are our enemies, that we have to destroy.
@@ferreus u have a lot of anger inside u and maybe u should seek to understand this individual before judging him for his group identity. He did not take the city. U know nothing of his religious convictions yet u judge so quickly. U and he could be 100% on the same page and yet u want to destroy him? We do have enemies and people who wish us harm but u should be certain in identifying them or ur careless thoughts and words will turn to careless actions and innocent peoples Will get hurt. Shame on u.
@@ferreus my point is that u don’t know his group. I live in a random town in England with no orthodoxy but based on my geography u would assume I am in a different group. This man wishes u no harm but u want to destroy him. Remember that even Samaritans could be good. Ones individuality is sacred and a gift from god so don’t dogmatically judge by group
That historians interpret the descension of the palladium as a meteor that fell out of the sky, rather than a sacred image that would protect the city, is exactly why I have disliked learning about history pretty much up to this point.
In my own catastrophist interpretation, the lance piercing the side of Christ represents the impactor that ended the ice age (Younger Dryas Impact hypothesis) (- when I listen to Randall Carlson talking about the meltwater pulse that rushed out from the meltwater on the North American ice shield, I think of the water coming out of Christs side after being pierced with the lance). Human civilization itself got nailed to the cross / went through a bottleneck (see also megafauna extinction)/ resurrection event. - The nail embedded in the lance is just a doubling / fractal of the symbolism: I wouldn’t even be surprised if it was meteoric iron: it doesn’t matter, that all these “true nails of the cross” are not 2k years old: they are symbolic anyway. - Even the Muslims circle around a meteorite at Mekka… I don’t care that my reading is a-historic: I have too much fun reading things into things. When I see a round host with a cross on it, I see the astronomical symbol for the Earth. When I see the Orb and Cross (Globus Cruciger), I see the Earth getting hit by an impactor. When I see a Native American head dress with feathers, I imagine an active sun with protuberances. When I see golden crowns, I see the suns active corona. When I see the French Kings Lilies, they look like CME’s to me. When I look at the Oriflamme (Charlemagne’s war flag), I see the same en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriflamme I can find symbols of the “last end of the world” everywhere I look: the flaming sword that drove us from Eden… Edit: the whole idea of the discontinued line of the King (in the other video), the left over part: I think that is a trauma on the civilizational level from an event that almost wiped us out. It’s survivors guilt times ten, and the way humanity dealt with it is found in all those myths and religions. Judgement Day already happened, so to speak. - Humanity already saw a new heaven and a new earth after the catastrophe - if the tilting axis is a thing, then we literally saw a new heaven: there is this Marduk quote, about the stars no longer being in their used place: “Hamlet’s Mill” reads that as a sign for the precession, but I think one might as well read it as a sign for the axis tilt… ua-cam.com/video/sRgwkOLrYhg/v-deo.htmlsi=cqZaHNkv_V718aIM&t=16646
Impossible mate. Your dreams needs logic. Istanbul is 16 million people and they are not your people, they speak turkish and they say they are turkish. You dont have the power to conquer also. Get the hellouta here.
@@fz7793 nope, Constantinople is inhabited by only 7-8 Mio. people. The Asiatic part isn't part of the original city (that's Chalcedon). iStanBuL is a decadent clusterfuck, crammed together with other cities to make it seem larger. These days, the city is even a venue for gay pride parades, while the mosques are falling into disrepair. Considering, that the Thracian Turks not only are more related to Greeks and other balkan peoples , but also that if a people can change their language and religion, why can't it happen again with the currently Muslim Thracian Turks? As long as Greeks and Christians exist, Constantinople will always be eyed for reconquest. 🇬🇷
@@Michael_the_Drunkard Those 7 8 million people you talking about are Turks and they are not going to change their language or their religion. This is the most unrealistic dream i ever heard of. We anatolian turks are mixed of Turk and Greek origin and we know it but it doesnt mean we gonna give up on our identities.
Gentlemen, you make it sound as if Constantine wanted or even commissioned a statue of himself as Apollo. Perhaps instead it was a fait accompli by the locals?
It's clear from the sources, Philostorgius, the Chronicon Paschale and John Malalas that he did commission it -- but I think Jonathan and I clarified that this was for political-civic rather than religious reasons (despite these being intertwined in this context).
I didnt watch this video thus my comment is unrelated to it, but ive recently come into JOnathans work on youtube and as an sda protestant the symbolic view he takes of the world and cosmology in general as a converted orthadox Christian has more resonance to my relation to my reality and view of the world and creation and i would like to understand some of the subject matters he raises. So im going through the playlist of work he has on his channels and wherever it takes me lol, not going through it to fast as to not burn myself out and never come back lol but i have a question pertaining creation and symbolism and God, i ask it here cause i dont know where else ill be able to reach Jonathan the question is, is it plausible to think that in a world of so much sin and so much meaning at the same time (and alot of that meaning explicitly found because of the sinful state of the world such as Christ bringing us life from death and plenty of other examples)that creation was meant to go down the sinful way given the symbolism and meaning found in everything? or are the logos and logi of things as we see and know them now independent of our sinful nature and thus environment? or is or was everything still going to have the same purpose/meaning/reasoning as they do now in perfection or had adam not sinned? to extract the understanding that has been imparted on us revealing great mysteries over the millennia since creation with the experiences they came with from the crucifixion to the covenants of Abraham Jacob and Moses and so fourth and especially considering the fact that we are possibly allotted an angel to lead us to the Creator and one that leads us away, is and was this trajectory of humanity the initial primary start of creation? Was Adam supposed to sin for our own good including the rest of creation from the angels above and demons below? ( ive tried to ask the same thing in different ways to get the understanding of thought across) ill post this on a few more videos in the hopes Jonathan answers thank you.
Check out The Lord of Spirits podcast. It’s an amazing orthodox podcast with knowledgeable fathers who talk about such topics. If they haven’t covered this yet it can call in and ask.
@Jonathan Pageau The statue of Constantine as Apollo is how he communicated to his pagan people the new hierarchy. Constantine was powerful, noble, wise and conscientious, but he was a man, not God. This told his people of how they should venerate the virtues represented by Apollo, embodied by Constantine, while noting that Constantine, thus Apollo, put himself under God.
Baptism so long as it is done correctly and in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit is valid and I think most of the Semi- Arians were not out of visible communion with the Church, it took some time for Nicean Orthodoxy to prevail and for Nicean to be considered Ecumenical and definitive.
@@michaelspeyrer1264 On paper perhaps, but in the West even Rome signed on to an ambiguous formulary at a local council, and in the East the Cappadocians, though they strived for Ortodoxy, did so at first with a bit of a weaker terminology than the Council its self to win people over (and because they feared a Sabelian interpretation).
Constantin considered himself the embodiment of Apollo, the god, so in essence he is God just like the other Caesars of Rome before him. You guys are engaging in idle and baseless talk with Christian orthodox biased, and not objective or based on historical facts.
Jonathan, I see you as a funnel to the orthodox church. Is that enterprise enough? You often get the same questions over and over not because you are not a clear communicator (you are as clear as water) but because you purposefully don't show your "ugly" side. You despise moralizing so much that you don't show your true thoughts on evil. That is not humility but pride, take is as you will. We are not meant to change God's word to make it more palatable. You want the church to be liked/entered into, you want to be liked, but you are concealing your true self and what christianity is about. Following Christ. Not out of bliss but embracing the cross and loving it. It's not merely beautiful, it's also grotesque. Cain is part of it. If the prophet is never king then God is not God and the incarnation never took place. Moral and temporal meet and that's where St Christopher works: in the margin where authority and self meet, where you finally eat the fruit because God is giving it to you. Jesus didn't come to overthrow Caesar, but he will eventually do it: the political is always there. That's the big monster, the dogman. It's the same as the icon-idol duality. A good icon is not an idol because it's holy through participation. In God any political action will be holy. Jesus is not only the son but also the dog of God (the transgression). And he goes to the end of the world where the unrepentant sinners die, those who will not serve Him, establishing the boundaries between being and non-being. Separating good and bad. You have authority you are not willing to use, and by not using it you imply the laity doesn't have authority, and from that it follows that it can believe in the God they want and receive communion just the same. But if they believe in the right God then they also have authority from that God, or else they cannot commune. By not showing the moralizing aspect of christianity (which you seem to think it's somehow overplayed already) you risk miss-characterizing it (or even de-naturing it). Just because you don't like moralizing or think it a bad way to gain converts undermines God's word.
@@Xanaseb No, actually devout Christians! King and Priest of Ethiopia, Nejashi (Armah) of the great Axumite empire welcomed the companions of Prophet Muhammad when they were persecuted by the pagans of Mecca at the time. He gave them refugee and allowed them to live and practice their religion in Freedom in his Land.
@@anna.groong1679 I understand your point of view, and sympathize for the fact that it is only antagonistic Muslim-Christian relations which comes to the mind of many in the west. The narrative has been shaped so distorted centuries ago, and the lie is now taken as the truth. I am sorry to tell you that if you want to talk about Garbage, it is indeed the mainstream fallacious narrative, which draws Christian-Muslim relation ship only from blood shed point of view. If you are interested to know the truth of the past, I suggest you read Michael Penn, 'when Christians first met Muslims', you will find out indeed the two have more in common and coexisted for centuries. But if you are only interested in pushing hate and anger, Good Luck¡ as you are helping the Antichrist. The purpose of preaching peace between the two is nor to deny any confrontation they had before or neither should it be to ignore the peaceful and beautiful communities they built together. But it should be balanced and based on truth. It is of course a right to choose to become outrageous and hate preacher, which neither of the two religions accept nor the followers.
@@mm-wm3jd I return all the titles to you , you should be ashamed of the garbage you are trying to sell to people like me that have FAMILY VICTIMS in the their own family tree , have lost cities towns fortune future and you dare call the victims as h.preachers!!!!!!!!! WE ARE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN THROUGH THIS AND NEVER DID ANYTHING OF THE SORT TO THE PEOPLE YOU ARE DEFENDING...this is simply disgusting
51:46 👇👇👇 👉 Muslims are appreciated not only for preserving original Greek texts but even more for their active processing of it. The mere receipt of the original texts could not drive the renaissance as fast as it did, but the processed and ready to use out put of medieval Spain did facilitate it. 👉 Greek texts was processed in the Islamic civilization (Baghdad and Spain) as a result theory based Greek Science was transformed in to experimental science. Shockingly, renaissance named Galileo as father of modern science, while his book is filled with references from medieval Muslim scientists. 👉 The greatest 19th century Historian of science, PIERRE DUHEM, in his book ‘The origin of Statistics’, debunked this idea of Galileo’s experiment to be the beginning of science, in a sarcasm; ‘Galileo’s inclined plane as the very instrument which science descends from heaven to earth’. 😁 👉 DUHEM, who is a theoretical physicist, discovered medieval works in Michaelangelo's books which are also packed with references from medieval Muslim Scientists. DUHEM, a devout Catholic and Physicist, then dedicated his life to bringing these buried Medieval works in to light in to the western academic discussion. While he paid the price for exposing what was supposed to be hidden, he persisted and said 'Truth is Patient for it is Eternal'. 👉 Even though DUHEM is one of the first, after him Dozens of other works have showed that Galileo's and Newton's ideas were already very well known and discussed among medieval Spain Scientists. Which is all provably present in medieval Arabic works discussing Galileo's models and the concept of Gravity very deeply. But renaissance came along and try to shallowly take credit for every advancement which was already achieved earlier to it. 👉 René Guénon compares this tragedy of the renaissance which is- trying to erase what existed before it, to the Greeks themselves who also left little to no trace about the spiritual civilization which they inherited their science from. Just like the renaissance tries to take all the credit for what has been done in Islamic civilization, surely Greeks did the same. For example Pythagoras, giving separately as an independent theory, it turns out that that concept was embedded in a much broader tradition which predates Greek. 👉 In conclusion, The medieval Muslim Spain is not then appreciated for just preserving Greek texts, but also for processing them to the next level. If it was not for the 800 years of dedicated Islamic scholarship, getting the raw Greek text from Constantinople wouldn't have driven renaissance as fast as it happened. Surely, talking about Greek texts, Alexandria, Constantinople, India and China had them. 👉 The impact of 800 years Muslims scholarship is not to just preserve original Aristotle and Plato works. But hundreds of their commentaries were produced which drove experiments in physics, chemistry, medicine..... Based on which innovations were facilitated. In addition due to the silk road Indian and Chinese wisdom was also amalgamated in the Islamic civilization to bring about a whole new body of scholarship which later was transferred to Italy, France and England to fuel renaissance. If 800 Muslim scholarship didn't exist, Renaissance as we know it wouldn't have happened.
"Towards the end of the Byzantine empire Constantinople was preoccupied with Orthodox spirituality, saw refinement in that spirituality, had more monks than soldiers and more nuns than marrying women to produce children and that's why the empire fell. " Reminds me of quote from Lord of the Rings: "Death was ever present, because the Númenoreans still, as they had in their old kingdom, and so lost it, hungered after endless life unchanging. Kings made tombs more splendid than houses of the living and counted old names in the rolls of their descent dearer than the names of sons. Childless lords sat in aged halls musing on heraldry; in secret chambers withered men compounded strong elixirs, or in high cold towers asked questions of the stars. And the last king of the line of Anárion had no heir."
Because the modern Western world cannot fathom non-dual thinking, we can't imagine how Christendom could blend Greek and Roman culture into itself in a way that didn't convolute or contradict Christ as the center. Modern Christianity imagines Christ is the Great Excluder, while ancient Christianity saw Christ as the Great Includer.
I’m not sure if it’s even that. I’m Protestant, but I’m having to come to grips with this stuff myself. One of the main ideas of the Reformation is that no Christian is to be excluded from total devotion to our Almighty, Holy Creator. Total devotion is not simply for monks, nuns, priests, and pastors. That being said, the emphasis on personal devotion was recovered (necessitating total personal salvation being guaranteed in Christ’s work alone, coming before our devotion, cf. justification in solus Christus), but as time passed devotion became an exclusively individualistic idea without any concern for public/corporate devotion. This seems to cause some confusion about what Jesus did in redemption, as my fellow Protestants (especially Calvinists, like me) seem to understand redemption exclusively in individualistic terms, whereas from what I can see all of Scripture portrays Christ’s act of redemption on both a cosmic/corporate level and on an individual level. In that sense, I see the nondualism, as both unity and multiplicity are accounted for in Jesus’s saving work (i.e. Jesus is the last Adam).
EDIT: This isn’t meant to imply universalism, i.e. no one is going to hell; everything will be fine in heaven. Rather, there should be a more mature wrestling with Jesus being God and man in one Person, the union of heaven and earth. As a beloved Dutch pastor I had years ago once said, “Some dust from earth now is on the throne of heaven.” Or, in another way, this world that is against Jesus is ruled by Jesus. The gods of this world hate Jesus, but Jesus is their Master whom they must obey. Jesus is Lord, even if Caesar wants it otherwise. Jesus is the only true Caesar, even if the false Caesars fail to recognize Him. The false Caesars may destroy the body, but the only True Caesar can destroy both body and soul in hell. False Caesars ought not to be worshipped as types of Christ, because Caesar cannot rule both heaven and earth, body and soul, even if he claims to rule over both. Christ is not like Caesar, but Caesar is like Christ. Christ is not like Adam, but Adam is like Christ. We honor our ancestors and our kings, but it is impossible to live while regarding a creature as the author of life and death. To do so would be to submit to Cain, the murderer-king of Enoch, rather than to Christ, the Redeemer-Lord of heaven and earth.
@@fiery_hunter3271 Thank you for your insight. It's awesome to see another Calvinist in the comment section.
TRUE
“The fall of Constantinople was so traumatizing to the whole of Europe that we don’t talk about it to this day” Jordan Peterson paraphrased.
Source please.
@@Sockheadableful I’m sorry I don’t know what lecture it was from, but I promise you he said it. Its stuck in my head for years now. He said something like the entire western world is suffering from PTSD as a result of the absolute shock of it. UA-cam has ruined their own site so its become difficult to search for specific quotes like that anymore. I think it may have been a Q and A section of a biblical lecture.
@@06rtm yes i remember that quote as part of one of the biblical lectures
No, the rest of Europe wasn’t terribly concerned, that’s why it isn’t mentioned.
By the 1400’s Constantinople was a fraction of its former self.
It still came as a shock. There was also the realization that the rest of Europe would be next. The Ottomans were on the march and no one could stop them (see the battle of Nicopolis where the joined strength of Europe was wiped out.
It is said that the future Queen Isabella, who was a child at the time of the fall of Constantinople, made it her life goal to recover the impetus for Christendom. According to Kirsten Downeys biography of her the fall of the city looked large.
Granada(the revenge), Columbus, and the new world - the intention of which to outflank Islam from the east, the Spanish conquest of Italy and the marital alliance with the Holy Roman Empire were its fruits. Remember that the Turks were stopped with Vienna when it was under Charles V, isabella’s grandson using Spanish tercios and German landsknechts.
I hope that the Salvation Cathedral in Bucharest, the worlds largest Orthodox cathedral recently constructed, will last 1000 years. Many people have been attacking the project because of the cost, saying that we need more hospitals and less cathedrals, as if they are mutually exclusive. Mircea Eliade would be proud of it ☦️
Greetings from a Canadian currently living in Istanbul! So excited to give this a listen...
*Constantinople
Ah, the history that fundamentalists and village-Atheists don't know about. The other half of the Roman Empire's legacy (besides the Holy Roman Empire) that was more technologically and culturally advanced than other societies-- and thoroughly Christian. If the dark ages myths weren't already obviously fictive, this would be the answer to it.
@@TheThreatenedSwan Later on it was. By then, it was a shadow of its former self. Which led it to being sacked by crusaders and later taken by the Turks
@@TheThreatenedSwan The iconoclasm was just another moral panic that pops up from time to time. We're going through one right now
Underrated comment :D thnx
@@TheThreatenedSwan iconoclasm was a temporary crisis. In the early 11th century, the empire reached its apex after the Arab invasions.
Why aren’t any good movies about Constantine? Or Christians and the Roman Empire? There are so many great stories.
here for future replies
Marketability and production cost, a network did try and do a TV show based on the King David story with a Game of Thrones style of production but this just alienated audiences, Christians aren't too keen on high level s** and violence shown to them and secular audiences are not necessarily interested in biblical stories even when there's no preaching in them.
@Prometheus Guy Dreamworks made The Prince of Egypt and Joseph King of Dreams, arguably two of the best animated biblical movies and nobody went to watch them so they stopped making biblically orientated movies.
@Prometheus Guy one can hope there are creative Christians out there keen to make Christian movies, I myself and writing a script for a Johan and The Giant Fish, a wholesome comedy, think Nicholas Cage as Nohan running away from God and failing everytime until he gives up and agrees to go along with God's plan.
The Vikings show in its’ later seasons has a lot of action at Constantinople
I love how Jonathan is just jumping into this one. I can’t read fast enough to keep up.
The book is $100. If I buy it I MUST read it...
When I saw the price I cried a little lol
Lmao
I was gonna impulse buy until I saw the price tag 😱
Greetings friends. Cambridge Scholars is a providing 25% discount on the hardcover if you purchase from their website and use the promo code at the end of this link: www.cambridgescholars.com/news/item/book-in-focus-from-the-ancient-near-east-to-christian-byzantium-kings-symbols-and-cities
I hope this is helpful. Thanks for your interest and support!
I'll have to take Pageau with me on my next trip to Australia for a conference, after COVID of course. :)
Being an Australian, I most definitely concur.
It's _Fortress Australia_ now. See you in 50 years when Australia's -Iron- Covid Curtain falls.
There is no after covid
"covid" will never end
I’m a simple man. I see a LOTR poster, I like.
Yes, LOTR an abiding obsession :)
I see the LOTR poster that is hanging im my flat too. With an identical frame. Did you know that this one was designed by Jimmy Cauty of KLF fame?
Not one but TWO LOTR posters!
@@str.77 Had no idea...
@@jjd4034 There's a third in another room -- a map of Middle-Earth :)
Cardinal Bessarion's donation of his Greek manuscript library to Venice was directly mined for the publications of Aldus Manutius & his Aldine Press. Many Greek classics had their editio princeps by his press, including the Septuigant
Nice! You must be a gentleman and a scholar!! 😊
this could have gone for much longer! thank you, very insightful!
Phenomenal conversation. Thank you.
Great conversation! Super fun to listen to. It's amazing how Christianity from the beginning always appreciated what came before. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria and Origin all spoke as to how truth it's not exclusive to Christianity or Judaism. How what is true is true regardless of who and how it was discovered..
This is something I've been wondering about a lot recently. I'm looking for some good material on Constantine too so if anyone has a biography or source recommendations on Constantine please drop them in a sub-comment.
There's *Defending Constantine: The Twilight of an Empire and the Dawn of Christendom* by Peter Leithart (also a Calivinist and someone associated with the Theopolis Institute). That title is somewhat misleading, it deals with a much broader subject material than merely responding to anti-Constantinian sentiments. I'd recommend that.
John Strickland’s “Age of Paradise” was mind-blowing for me, though definitely geared toward a popular audience. Alternatively, his podcast on Ancient Faith radio covers much the same material: “Paradise and Utopia”.
@@sac78008 Great podcast.
Byzantium: The Earlier Centuries by John Julius Norwich focuses primarily on Constantine and is a pleasure to read.
@@TheThreatenedSwan Latin polemicist located.
Love the thumnails !!!🙏
Can't wait to listen to this podcast!
Just in time for the day we commemorate Constantine! Really nice to see Jonathan’s allusions to architecture as symbolic of reality be fleshed out a bit more.
55:55 That's a GREAT way to put it. Another example of there being material that Orthodox Byzantium could handle and the West couldn't is the works of Aristotle. Aristotle had his place in the East (St. John of Damascus, St. Gregory Palamas, St. Mark of Ephesus, and St. Gennadius Scholarius were all excellent students of Aristotle), but as soon as his work reaches the West, it utterly overwhelms their intellectual sphere and you have them scrambling to try and integrate it. Result: Thomism, and, following it, Enlightenment empiricism, and then our disenchanted western world. Obviously I'm simplifying, but this is another good example of this point Dr. Baghos makes here.
The West could not handle Jerusalem either. Regardless of the crusader defeat though, we still can't stop writing about them. And I think you will find the same pattern all over history. Men of the West are given a thing, and take it to the extreme.
@Charm Ming What do these things have to do with barbarian roots? I would rather blame them on over-civilisation than barbarism.
Anyways, it is always easy to use selected atrocities and injustice as a means to define an entire group. In reality, all those things you mention were met with resistance and rejection.
@@TheThreatenedSwan Untrue and polemical. What an obnoxious combination.
@@TheThreatenedSwan
God bless you.
For all those interested in the truth on this subject: ua-cam.com/play/PLdZoV1AMZzLY_ag8WHwNl41X9CfcW8Sk5.html
Hmm... there is something to be said of the overall psychological differences between East and West of the post-Roman world but there is a tad too much rose-tinted viewing of Byzantium occurring in this comment section in general.
Enlightenment seems to wax and wane across times and across regions. The period of Gothic cathedral building might represent one of those enlightened times in the West where society's collective attention (from kings to craftsmen to peasants) was directed towards recognizing and participating in the hierarchy between heaven and earth (as well as all the other patterns that manifest themselves over time).
Excellent discussion. Thank you for publishing this.
Well don to Dr Mario!!! Fantastic episode.
Assassin's Creed Revelations took place in Constantinople and it was one of my favorites. Constantinople was beautiful.
Wonderful exposition on Constantinople. You mentioned the Spear of Constantine (aka Spear of Destiny). That would make for an interesting discussion in itself.
I found this very interesting, thank you 😊👍
My mind is blown now. First, I feel robbed by the university I graduated from in the 1980s that they never made me learn anything about Homer, Virgil, Plato, and Aristotle. I read them on my own later. But it was never part of the curriculum.
Second, the Scandinavian name for Constantinople was Mittlegard? That’s a cognate of Middle-earth. What hath Middle-earth to do with Eastern Orthodoxy? But then when you mentioned the differences of attitude toward women whom the West might regard as witches, I was reminded of one of my favorite LotR quotes: “Do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that were once needful for the wise to know.” (Celeborn) How came Tolkien’s eyes so bright? if you will. How did a guy raised by an Anglo-Catholic priest become so influenced by Eastern Christian thought?
Really great discussion, thanks.
Amazing! Thank you so much for your wonderful work! God bless you!
36:04 "exchange of stories"? Vikings were capable seafarers, they didn't just hear the stories, they actually were in Constantinople. There are even runes carved into Hagia Sophia from the 9th century. It's kind of funny, like ancient graffiti.
Yes, Varangian guards
They did mention the Varangian guard.
Cool!! Did not know that.
Can you give us the title of a worthy book on Constantinople that shares this same wholesome Orthodox perspective?
Fr. John Strickland’s “Paradise And Utopia” is four book series that interprets the cultural history of Christendom from Pentecost to modern times through an Orthodox lens. The city of Constantine plays a major role in that story. The accompanying podcast is excellent as well. I can’t recommend it enough!
Jonathan Pageau speaks to Dr. Mario.
Excelent! And just in time for the feast of our Great Saint:-)
I feel humbled. I had always been taught that Constantine pseudo Christianised the Roman Empire. That somehow he was the beginning of a perverse mixture of paganism and Christianity. This is the first time I’ve ever heard more positive spin on things. Please keep up this kind of content
They must teach history differently in school now. I learned that it was the capital of the Byzantine Empire which was Christian and controlled the West and East. Beautiful cathedrals and chapels and amazing religious art. It is iconic in world history.
This was incredible and enlightening. Thank you!
Book is out of stock on amazon. Well done Jonathan!
Super fantastically fascinating stuff.
It seems the group "Kansas" got a glimmering. This from their album "Somewhere to Elsewhere" the song "Byzantium":
"Byzantium"
City resting on a hill
Can your walls repel the tide of change
Under Pantocrator's rule
Did your golden domes reveal
The frailty of the consequence
The conqueror was real
Where the Emperor once reigned
Only shadows of the glories remain
No one sings your plaintive song
Of the Kontakion strain
Echoing through heaven's gate
Too lovely to sustain
We're looking back to see your frescoed walls
Where is the road that takes us to Byzantium
Once your borders had no end
And your dream was like a shining light
To the nations you surround
Did your golden domes reveal
The frailty of the consequence
The conqueror was real
Illuminating convo. Book purchased. Modern mind blown.
Constantinople was the jewel of a brilliant empire. And I totally understand why it deserves full scholarly (if I may use the word) attention. When you talk about the Trojan legend and its role in history, or about the unparalleled embodiment of the Orthodox faith, even in the last days of the Byzantine dynasty, it blows my mind. Or Constantine, was he really aware of what he was doing? Was he separating church and state, or was he unintentionally creating a new state and church? What is the role of Jerusalem in the Byzantine story?
What I am also interested in after this talk, is the actual Byzantine Empire during the European middle ages and especially after the establishment of Islam. Why were so many people in Egypt, Judea, and the Levant looking at the muslims as liberators? Why was the empire depending on European manpower to fend off invaders? Some kind of rot must have set in right after Justinian the Great. Was it the hubris of building a heaven on earth?
@@TheThreatenedSwan Yup, basically Game of Thrones.
@@TheThreatenedSwan
"bYzAnTiNe eMpIrE wAs eXtReMeLy CoRruPt"
What society doesn't decline and eventually fall after 1123 years of existence?
"iT jUsT sTaGnaTeD"
Only a person without knowledge of the ERE would say that.
I bet you can't even name significant events in its history, yet you imply that you know all about it.
That is impossible, since the empire survived for another 900 years. The real decline set in after Basil II with a short recovery during the Comnenian dynasty in the 12th century.
Yes a new state and church since he instituted Sunday laws on pains of penalties for dissenters...
Let’s goooooo
Of possible interest: Gerhart Ladner's God, Cosmos and Humankind: The World of Early Christian Symbolism (Univ. of California Press).
Constantinople is just wiped from memory for most of the west it seems. Old Rome is common knowledge but not new Rome for some reason. Great talk, gentlemen.
The significance of the translation movement of texts from Arabic into Latin is not so much the reintroduction of Aristotle and Plato. Rather, the works of Averroes(Ibn rushed) and Avicenna (Ibn Sina) were viewed as philosophically important in their own right. It's not for nothing that Aquinas refers to Ibn Rushd as the Commentator ( on Aristotle)
Truly, would have not even heard of it, if it had not been for the song. Thank you public ed. Somone suggested I educate myself. So, here we are. 😆
Nobody:
Scholars: Palladium was a meteorite
The great Victorian scholar John Mason Neale was also a novelist, and Theodora Phranza aka The Fall of Constantinople was regarded as deserving of a place in the original Everyman's Library books. These were kind of the Penguin Classics of a century and more ago. Neale was deeply interested in and learned about the Orthodox Church -- there is a whole book, published by Cambridge University Press, called John Mason Neale and the Quest for Sobornost about this topic. I haven't yet read the novel (the Quest for Sobornost book was good), but thought I would mention it. Sometimes a well-researched historical novel can be an agreeable way to learn about an historical subject.
Great and thank you!
Constantine’s true intentions of adopting Christianity by researching the one thing he left in the world that expresses his true consciousness, at that time, the famous Arch of Constantine.
And Sunday laws which trampled on the conscience of men
Mind-blown. I'm in shock. I've been all about Istanbul recently and just been drawn more into Cnople, Byzantium. I'm reeling.
Simargl found on facades of Orthodox Christian cathedrals is a good analogy of having ancient Greek gods in Christian churches.
Could someone explain to me the part where they speak about the tombs of the martyrs being built outside the city despite the fact that the martyrs had been killed inside the city? Why did Constantine build churches outside the city, on the place of the martyrs' tombs instead building them inside? Sorry if I missed the point and thanks for the answers.
It's funny when you start talking about modern city symbolism, especially in the U.S. and other colonial nations; I realized that the city I grew up in, Chicago, was founded as a trading post, and many other cities were as well. There's quite a bit of symbolism in there, I'd imagine.
Good point. Trade is more central to the modern Western city than religion/spirituality.
Very cool thank you
Thanks
The book is $99 on Amazon. Is there an e-book?
Vikings and rus were hired as varangian guards, bodyguards to the emperor
The Rus were vikings their name means the red as they had red hair. They also launched multiple invasions on the city. Rly cool history!!
@@bespinboi7523 yes indeed:)
and now the Barbarians are through the gates
Hello from Istanbul.
Fair play ahahah
How do you see Hagia Sophia being a mosque? 🤔
@@bespinboi7523 people are liking his comment and responding to him while pretending that he isn't overtly hostile and contemptuous. They took Constantinople and they are always hungry for more. We're always hungry to lose and to play by the rules. When are people gonna understand that we have enemies? That actual, particular human beans are our enemies, that we have to destroy.
@@ferreus u have a lot of anger inside u and maybe u should seek to understand this individual before judging him for his group identity. He did not take the city. U know nothing of his religious convictions yet u judge so quickly. U and he could be 100% on the same page and yet u want to destroy him? We do have enemies and people who wish us harm but u should be certain in identifying them or ur careless thoughts and words will turn to careless actions and innocent peoples Will get hurt. Shame on u.
@@ferreus my point is that u don’t know his group. I live in a random town in England with no orthodoxy but based on my geography u would assume I am in a different group. This man wishes u no harm but u want to destroy him. Remember that even Samaritans could be good. Ones individuality is sacred and a gift from god so don’t dogmatically judge by group
That historians interpret the descension of the palladium as a meteor that fell out of the sky, rather than a sacred image that would protect the city, is exactly why I have disliked learning about history pretty much up to this point.
I wonder, has this book been translated into Japanese? Or are there other translations of the book?
Nope, no translations yet -- it just came out in March :)
Interesting
Constantine was in a way a symbolism of his city.His father was a Roman,while his mother was a Christian of Greek origins.
In my own catastrophist interpretation, the lance piercing the side of Christ represents the impactor that ended the ice age (Younger Dryas Impact hypothesis) (- when I listen to Randall Carlson talking about the meltwater pulse that rushed out from the meltwater on the North American ice shield, I think of the water coming out of Christs side after being pierced with the lance).
Human civilization itself got nailed to the cross / went through a bottleneck (see also megafauna extinction)/ resurrection event. - The nail embedded in the lance is just a doubling / fractal of the symbolism: I wouldn’t even be surprised if it was meteoric iron: it doesn’t matter, that all these “true nails of the cross” are not 2k years old: they are symbolic anyway. - Even the Muslims circle around a meteorite at Mekka…
I don’t care that my reading is a-historic: I have too much fun reading things into things.
When I see a round host with a cross on it, I see the astronomical symbol for the Earth.
When I see the Orb and Cross (Globus Cruciger), I see the Earth getting hit by an impactor.
When I see a Native American head dress with feathers, I imagine an active sun with protuberances. When I see golden crowns, I see the suns active corona. When I see the French Kings Lilies, they look like CME’s to me. When I look at the Oriflamme (Charlemagne’s war flag), I see the same en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriflamme
I can find symbols of the “last end of the world” everywhere I look: the flaming sword that drove us from Eden…
Edit: the whole idea of the discontinued line of the King (in the other video), the left over part: I think that is a trauma on the civilizational level from an event that almost wiped us out. It’s survivors guilt times ten, and the way humanity dealt with it is found in all those myths and religions. Judgement Day already happened, so to speak. - Humanity already saw a new heaven and a new earth after the catastrophe - if the tilting axis is a thing, then we literally saw a new heaven: there is this Marduk quote, about the stars no longer being in their used place: “Hamlet’s Mill” reads that as a sign for the precession, but I think one might as well read it as a sign for the axis tilt… ua-cam.com/video/sRgwkOLrYhg/v-deo.htmlsi=cqZaHNkv_V718aIM&t=16646
The city of Nowa Huta was founded when Karol Wojtyla shoveled the first bit of earth to found what is no known as Arka Pana.
Our church, our city, our people. I hate to be greedy, but may god grant us the city back in our lifetime. 🇬🇷🇬🇷
Impossible mate. Your dreams needs logic. Istanbul is 16 million people and they are not your people, they speak turkish and they say they are turkish. You dont have the power to conquer also. Get the hellouta here.
"With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible". Matthew 19:26
@@fz7793 nope, Constantinople is inhabited by only 7-8 Mio. people. The Asiatic part isn't part of the original city (that's Chalcedon). iStanBuL is a decadent clusterfuck, crammed together with other cities to make it seem larger. These days, the city is even a venue for gay pride parades, while the mosques are falling into disrepair.
Considering, that the Thracian Turks not only are more related to Greeks and other balkan peoples , but also that if a people can change their language and religion, why can't it happen again with the currently Muslim Thracian Turks?
As long as Greeks and Christians exist, Constantinople will always be eyed for reconquest. 🇬🇷
@@Michael_the_Drunkard Those 7 8 million people you talking about are Turks and they are not going to change their language or their religion. This is the most unrealistic dream i ever heard of. We anatolian turks are mixed of Turk and Greek origin and we know it but it doesnt mean we gonna give up on our identities.
The only city that is the mother of us all and is better than Constantinople is the New Jerusalem
Correction: Constantinople is not in Anatolia, it's in Thrace. In the Balkans.
what is the symbolism of the fall of Constantinople by a "subverting" force?
Que Mário?
Times Square is the hell of the native New Yorker, lmao
43:24
Gentlemen, you make it sound as if Constantine wanted or even commissioned a statue of himself as Apollo. Perhaps instead it was a fait accompli by the locals?
It's clear from the sources, Philostorgius, the Chronicon Paschale and John Malalas that he did commission it -- but I think Jonathan and I clarified that this was for political-civic rather than religious reasons (despite these being intertwined in this context).
@@mariobaghos Thank you for the additional clarification.
I didnt watch this video thus my comment is unrelated to it, but ive recently come into JOnathans work on youtube and as an sda protestant the symbolic view he takes of the world and cosmology in general as a converted orthadox Christian has more resonance to my relation to my reality and view of the world and creation and i would like to understand some of the subject matters he raises.
So im going through the playlist of work he has on his channels and wherever it takes me lol, not going through it to fast as to not burn myself out and never come back lol but i have a question pertaining creation and symbolism and God, i ask it here cause i dont know where else ill be able to reach Jonathan the question is, is it plausible to think that in a world of so much sin and so much meaning at the same time (and alot of that meaning explicitly found because of the sinful state of the world such as Christ bringing us life from death and plenty of other examples)that creation was meant to go down the sinful way given the symbolism and meaning found in everything? or are the logos and logi of things as we see and know them now independent of our sinful nature and thus environment? or is or was everything still going to have the same purpose/meaning/reasoning as they do now in perfection or had adam not sinned? to extract the understanding that has been imparted on us revealing great mysteries over the millennia since creation with the experiences they came with from the crucifixion to the covenants of Abraham Jacob and Moses and so fourth and especially considering the fact that we are possibly allotted an angel to lead us to the Creator and one that leads us away, is and was this trajectory of humanity the initial primary start of creation? Was Adam supposed to sin for our own good including the rest of creation from the angels above and demons below? ( ive tried to ask the same thing in different ways to get the understanding of thought across)
ill post this on a few more videos in the hopes Jonathan answers thank you.
Check out The Lord of Spirits podcast. It’s an amazing orthodox podcast with knowledgeable fathers who talk about such topics. If they haven’t covered this yet it can call in and ask.
@Jonathan Pageau The statue of Constantine as Apollo is how he communicated to his pagan people the new hierarchy. Constantine was powerful, noble, wise and conscientious, but he was a man, not God. This told his people of how they should venerate the virtues represented by Apollo, embodied by Constantine, while noting that Constantine, thus Apollo, put himself under God.
Micklegarth!
#1
8:15
10:00
Länge leve Miklagård
Vore trevligt med mer Orthodoxi i Sverige!
+
How could Constantine be a saint? He wasn’t baptized until his deathbed, and even then it appears he may have been baptized by Arians.
Baptism so long as it is done correctly and in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit is valid and I think most of the Semi- Arians were not out of visible communion with the Church, it took some time for Nicean Orthodoxy to prevail and for Nicean to be considered Ecumenical and definitive.
@@greenchristendom4116 No, Nicea was recognized as definitive at the Council.
@@michaelspeyrer1264 On paper perhaps, but in the West even Rome signed on to an ambiguous formulary at a local council, and in the East the Cappadocians, though they strived for Ortodoxy, did so at first with a bit of a weaker terminology than the Council its self to win people over (and because they feared a Sabelian interpretation).
You're idea on the protestant narrative is very reductive.
Here first. Get rekt noobs
tfw many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
The first should be willing to sacrifice for the last
@@6yHaP well you were 2nd so you’ll be 2nd to last /s
@@kmotynojodas well you get to be a comment on the first comment. This is my sacrifice for you, friend
forgive me Father, for I've been shitposting...
Constantin considered himself the embodiment of Apollo, the god, so in essence he is God just like the other Caesars of Rome before him. You guys are engaging in idle and baseless talk with Christian orthodox biased, and not objective or based on historical facts.
Jonathan, I see you as a funnel to the orthodox church. Is that enterprise enough? You often get the same questions over and over not because you are not a clear communicator (you are as clear as water) but because you purposefully don't show your "ugly" side. You despise moralizing so much that you don't show your true thoughts on evil. That is not humility but pride, take is as you will. We are not meant to change God's word to make it more palatable.
You want the church to be liked/entered into, you want to be liked, but you are concealing your true self and what christianity is about. Following Christ. Not out of bliss but embracing the cross and loving it. It's not merely beautiful, it's also grotesque. Cain is part of it. If the prophet is never king then God is not God and the incarnation never took place.
Moral and temporal meet and that's where St Christopher works: in the margin where authority and self meet, where you finally eat the fruit because God is giving it to you. Jesus didn't come to overthrow Caesar, but he will eventually do it: the political is always there. That's the big monster, the dogman. It's the same as the icon-idol duality. A good icon is not an idol because it's holy through participation. In God any political action will be holy. Jesus is not only the son but also the dog of God (the transgression). And he goes to the end of the world where the unrepentant sinners die, those who will not serve Him, establishing the boundaries between being and non-being. Separating good and bad.
You have authority you are not willing to use, and by not using it you imply the laity doesn't have authority, and from that it follows that it can believe in the God they want and receive communion just the same. But if they believe in the right God then they also have authority from that God, or else they cannot commune. By not showing the moralizing aspect of christianity (which you seem to think it's somehow overplayed already) you risk miss-characterizing it (or even de-naturing it). Just because you don't like moralizing or think it a bad way to gain converts undermines God's word.
So very interesting!
Do you know Orthodox Christians helped Islam and the Prophet?
Then they were not Orthodox, but heretical. Could you give some examples please?
@@Xanaseb No, actually devout Christians! King and Priest of Ethiopia, Nejashi (Armah) of the great Axumite empire welcomed the companions of Prophet Muhammad when they were persecuted by the pagans of Mecca at the time. He gave them refugee and allowed them to live and practice their religion in Freedom in his Land.
the group of people executed by islam in enormous numbers were orthodox....please don't post garbage here
@@anna.groong1679 I understand your point of view, and sympathize for the fact that it is only antagonistic Muslim-Christian relations which comes to the mind of many in the west. The narrative has been shaped so distorted centuries ago, and the lie is now taken as the truth. I am sorry to tell you that if you want to talk about Garbage, it is indeed the mainstream fallacious narrative, which draws Christian-Muslim relation ship only from blood shed point of view.
If you are interested to know the truth of the past, I suggest you read Michael Penn, 'when Christians first met Muslims', you will find out indeed the two have more in common and coexisted for centuries. But if you are only interested in pushing hate and anger, Good Luck¡ as you are helping the Antichrist.
The purpose of preaching peace between the two is nor to deny any confrontation they had before or neither should it be to ignore the peaceful and beautiful communities they built together. But it should be balanced and based on truth. It is of course a right to choose to become outrageous and hate preacher, which neither of the two religions accept nor the followers.
@@mm-wm3jd I return all the titles to you , you should be ashamed of the garbage you are trying to sell to people like me that have FAMILY VICTIMS in the their own family tree , have lost cities towns fortune future and you dare call the victims as h.preachers!!!!!!!!! WE ARE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN THROUGH THIS AND NEVER DID ANYTHING OF THE SORT TO THE PEOPLE YOU ARE DEFENDING...this is simply disgusting
51:46 👇👇👇
👉 Muslims are appreciated not only for preserving original Greek texts but even more for their active processing of it. The mere receipt of the original texts could not drive the renaissance as fast as it did, but the processed and ready to use out put of medieval Spain did facilitate it.
👉 Greek texts was processed in the Islamic civilization (Baghdad and Spain) as a result theory based Greek Science was transformed in to experimental science. Shockingly, renaissance named Galileo as father of modern science, while his book is filled with references from medieval Muslim scientists.
👉 The greatest 19th century Historian of science, PIERRE DUHEM, in his book ‘The origin of Statistics’, debunked this idea of Galileo’s experiment to be the beginning of science, in a sarcasm; ‘Galileo’s inclined plane as the very instrument which science descends from heaven to earth’. 😁
👉 DUHEM, who is a theoretical physicist, discovered medieval works in Michaelangelo's books which are also packed with references from medieval Muslim Scientists. DUHEM, a devout Catholic and Physicist, then dedicated his life to bringing these buried Medieval works in to light in to the western academic discussion. While he paid the price for exposing what was supposed to be hidden, he persisted and said 'Truth is Patient for it is Eternal'.
👉 Even though DUHEM is one of the first, after him Dozens of other works have showed that Galileo's and Newton's ideas were already very well known and discussed among medieval Spain Scientists. Which is all provably present in medieval Arabic works discussing Galileo's models and the concept of Gravity very deeply. But renaissance came along and try to shallowly take credit for every advancement which was already achieved earlier to it.
👉 René Guénon compares this tragedy of the renaissance which is- trying to erase what existed before it, to the Greeks themselves who also left little to no trace about the spiritual civilization which they inherited their science from. Just like the renaissance tries to take all the credit for what has been done in Islamic civilization, surely Greeks did the same. For example Pythagoras, giving separately as an independent theory, it turns out that that concept was embedded in a much broader tradition which predates Greek.
👉 In conclusion, The medieval Muslim Spain is not then appreciated for just preserving Greek texts, but also for processing them to the next level. If it was not for the 800 years of dedicated Islamic scholarship, getting the raw Greek text from Constantinople wouldn't have driven renaissance as fast as it happened. Surely, talking about Greek texts, Alexandria, Constantinople, India and China had them.
👉 The impact of 800 years Muslims scholarship is not to just preserve original Aristotle and Plato works. But hundreds of their commentaries were produced which drove experiments in physics, chemistry, medicine..... Based on which innovations were facilitated. In addition due to the silk road Indian and Chinese wisdom was also amalgamated in the Islamic civilization to bring about a whole new body of scholarship which later was transferred to Italy, France and England to fuel renaissance. If 800 Muslim scholarship didn't exist, Renaissance as we know it wouldn't have happened.
How Islamic Medieval Knowledge and scholarship shaped Modern Science 👇👇
ua-cam.com/video/stJOl0PYHUE/v-deo.html
Texts often translated by Nestorian Christians under the Muslims btw
Without Byzantium, the Arabs wouldn't have gotten much knowledge. Much of it was preserved more by the former.
"Towards the end of the Byzantine empire Constantinople was preoccupied with Orthodox spirituality, saw refinement in that spirituality, had more monks than soldiers and more nuns than marrying women to produce children and that's why the empire fell. "
Reminds me of quote from Lord of the Rings:
"Death was ever present, because the Númenoreans still, as they had in their old kingdom, and so lost it, hungered after endless life unchanging. Kings made tombs more splendid than houses of the living and counted old names in the rolls of their descent dearer than the names of sons. Childless lords sat in aged halls musing on heraldry; in secret chambers withered men compounded strong elixirs, or in high cold towers asked questions of the stars. And the last king of the line of Anárion had no heir."
Interesting
12:39