Sauron focused his spiritual power to control the minds of beings with free will, and thus forged the One Ring. Saruman applied Sauron's teachings when he made his own ring. Teaching: Strengthening spiritual power by focusing it on a specific ability. Saruman also focused his spiritual power into his own ring, probably to increase the power of his voice.
I wonder if Sauron’s voice was a power he gained through Ring lore. His power through his voice to dominate minds is similar to Sauron’s Ring with that similar effect. Like it’s a power that is gained as part of the journey towards crafting a Ring. Or perhaps it’s a power he already had, one Sauron had a similar one to, but just transferring that power into the One Ring. Maybe it’s a similar power because of the affect it has on Gimli. Dwarves wouldn’t succumb to the Rings of Power as it’s part of their over individual nature. Rather they enhanced their greed. So it could be similar with Saruman’s voice. Dwarves won’t succumb to such domination. I do wonder what would happen if Saruman tried to use his voice on Gimli but in a manner of appealing to a Dwarves greed.
It seems like Manwe sent a wind to blow Saruman's spirit away after he was killed. The Eagles were presumably also sent by Manwe to help at the Battle of the Morannon / to rescue Frodo and Sam. So it seems the Valar are keeping an eye on things.
I know that this isn't really a fair criticism, but I still think it is weird that Sauron could flex more influence over Saruman; an enmantled celestial, with an incredibly powerful mind, who was literally tasked by God to oppose him, than he could against Denethor, who, while he may have had some of the blood of Numenor, was still more "just a Man", when both used the Palantiri. I often liked to hope that it was, at least in part, a negative side effect of his wearing his pseudo-Ring of Power, which, if made via techniques of Sauron, like the Elven Rings, would make him more vulnerable to Sauron's manipulation, but it always seems weird that, whole he also suffered for it, the Steward of Gondor was more resilient to Sauron than the White Wizard was.
@@venkelos6996 I don't think Sauron wanted to manipulate Denethor's mind or tried to control him. Instead, Sauron merely wanted to manipulate what the palantir showed Denethor, to discourage him -- but subtly so Denethor didn't catch on.
I think Sauron merely manipulated Saruman, but Saruman was already turning to evil. Therefore, Sauron was pushing a boulder downhill. He just encouraged Saruman's dark path, he didn't set him on it. That would be my explanation as to why Sauron had more success with Saruman versus Denethor via the palantiri.
I think Saruman was more easily bent to Saurons will because Saruman already had his own ambitions that kind of fell in line with the Dark Lord at least up until the point Saruman could snag the one ring and then all bets are off. Saruman already wanted the power as well. With Denethor I think he was probably just looking for hope but Sauron made sure all he would see is ruination and despair. To be honest I do not think Denethor was any less manipulated than Saruman because he let Gondor sink into a state of not being able to hold back the tide of evil because his visions from the palantir showed him there was no point in trying even though there was. They both fell exactly into what Sauron wanted them to do.
Not to be rude, but this line of reasoning is a flawed understanding of the difference in power levels between "just men" and "gods". Under specific circumstances even mortals could be superior to these beings. The entire story of the 2nd Age and the dealings of the Numenoreans vs Sauron are an example of this. Denethor was superior in strength of will due to other circumstances as well. He had an inherited right to use a Palantir that neither Sauron nor Saruman had, and those things matter in Tolkien's universe. He explicitly states so in the Palantiri chapter of Unfinished Tales. That is why Aragorn did even better and could wrestle with Sauron's will and even come out on top in a sense. This modern view of the Lore that Maiar are superior of power everywhere and anywhere and by themselves, is a concept that Tolkien never intended. Gil-Galad and Elendil with their armies defeated Sauron's armies and they went on to defeat him in personal combat as well. It is quite a central element of the story. Sauron had his One Ring at that point, while they had no ring of power (Gil-Galad obviously didn't use his at the time). And the film version of that battle is wrong. The two of them actually "killed" Sauron, and Isildur merely cut the Ring from his hand. This argument should be sufficient to prove my point.
In Theory: The Voice of Saruman is Philosophy and it's grasp on Eurasia. Hermeticism as started by Hermes Trismegistus, Hermes incarnate (Sarumes). Philosophy is Wisdom (Wise-Dom-ination) the same way that Sauron's Religion is Wisdom. It was Gandalf's Knowledge of Myth(randir) and O(lore)in, whether it be for good or for evil, that defeated Philosophy and Religion.
One of my favorite quotes in the movie is when Gandalf says to him... "When did Saruman the WISE abandon reason for MADNESS?!" We who know the truth can say " A long damn time ago!"
Sauron focused his spiritual power to control the minds of beings with free will, and thus forged the One Ring. Saruman applied Sauron's teachings when he made his own ring. Teaching: Strengthening spiritual power by focusing it on a specific ability. Saruman also focused his spiritual power into his own ring, probably to increase the power of his voice.
Powers: many
Abilities: colors
I wonder if Sauron’s voice was a power he gained through Ring lore. His power through his voice to dominate minds is similar to Sauron’s Ring with that similar effect. Like it’s a power that is gained as part of the journey towards crafting a Ring. Or perhaps it’s a power he already had, one Sauron had a similar one to, but just transferring that power into the One Ring. Maybe it’s a similar power because of the affect it has on Gimli. Dwarves wouldn’t succumb to the Rings of Power as it’s part of their over individual nature. Rather they enhanced their greed. So it could be similar with Saruman’s voice. Dwarves won’t succumb to such domination. I do wonder what would happen if Saruman tried to use his voice on Gimli but in a manner of appealing to a Dwarves greed.
Did the Valar know about the fate of their Istari servants or were they merely informed by Olórin when he returned to Aman?
It seems like Manwe sent a wind to blow Saruman's spirit away after he was killed. The Eagles were presumably also sent by Manwe to help at the Battle of the Morannon / to rescue Frodo and Sam. So it seems the Valar are keeping an eye on things.
I wonder how Isengard would look like if the Nazgûl took over
I know that this isn't really a fair criticism, but I still think it is weird that Sauron could flex more influence over Saruman; an enmantled celestial, with an incredibly powerful mind, who was literally tasked by God to oppose him, than he could against Denethor, who, while he may have had some of the blood of Numenor, was still more "just a Man", when both used the Palantiri. I often liked to hope that it was, at least in part, a negative side effect of his wearing his pseudo-Ring of Power, which, if made via techniques of Sauron, like the Elven Rings, would make him more vulnerable to Sauron's manipulation, but it always seems weird that, whole he also suffered for it, the Steward of Gondor was more resilient to Sauron than the White Wizard was.
@@venkelos6996 I don't think Sauron wanted to manipulate Denethor's mind or tried to control him. Instead, Sauron merely wanted to manipulate what the palantir showed Denethor, to discourage him -- but subtly so Denethor didn't catch on.
I think Sauron merely manipulated Saruman, but Saruman was already turning to evil. Therefore, Sauron was pushing a boulder downhill. He just encouraged Saruman's dark path, he didn't set him on it. That would be my explanation as to why Sauron had more success with Saruman versus Denethor via the palantiri.
Saruman thought he was using Sauron to further his own quest for power. He was a willing participant.
I think Saruman was more easily bent to Saurons will because Saruman already had his own ambitions that kind of fell in line with the Dark Lord at least up until the point Saruman could snag the one ring and then all bets are off. Saruman already wanted the power as well. With Denethor I think he was probably just looking for hope but Sauron made sure all he would see is ruination and despair. To be honest I do not think Denethor was any less manipulated than Saruman because he let Gondor sink into a state of not being able to hold back the tide of evil because his visions from the palantir showed him there was no point in trying even though there was. They both fell exactly into what Sauron wanted them to do.
Not to be rude, but this line of reasoning is a flawed understanding of the difference in power levels between "just men" and "gods". Under specific circumstances even mortals could be superior to these beings. The entire story of the 2nd Age and the dealings of the Numenoreans vs Sauron are an example of this.
Denethor was superior in strength of will due to other circumstances as well. He had an inherited right to use a Palantir that neither Sauron nor Saruman had, and those things matter in Tolkien's universe. He explicitly states so in the Palantiri chapter of Unfinished Tales. That is why Aragorn did even better and could wrestle with Sauron's will and even come out on top in a sense.
This modern view of the Lore that Maiar are superior of power everywhere and anywhere and by themselves, is a concept that Tolkien never intended. Gil-Galad and Elendil with their armies defeated Sauron's armies and they went on to defeat him in personal combat as well. It is quite a central element of the story. Sauron had his One Ring at that point, while they had no ring of power (Gil-Galad obviously didn't use his at the time). And the film version of that battle is wrong. The two of them actually "killed" Sauron, and Isildur merely cut the Ring from his hand. This argument should be sufficient to prove my point.
Amazing
In Theory: The Voice of Saruman is Philosophy and it's grasp on Eurasia. Hermeticism as started by Hermes Trismegistus, Hermes incarnate (Sarumes). Philosophy is Wisdom (Wise-Dom-ination) the same way that Sauron's Religion is Wisdom. It was Gandalf's Knowledge of Myth(randir) and O(lore)in, whether it be for good or for evil, that defeated Philosophy and Religion.
Interesting take… perhaps myth and lore inspires whereas religion and philosophy seek to contain understand and control?
I wouldn’t attribute wisdom to Saruman. Power and knowledge? Yes.
One of my favorite quotes in the movie is when Gandalf says to him... "When did Saruman the WISE abandon reason for MADNESS?!" We who know the truth can say " A long damn time ago!"
Not convinced he was either more knowledgeable or wiser than Gandalf. More skilled as a craftsman for sure.
I wonder if the Bene Gesserit Voice and Jedi mind tricks were inspired by Saruman. 🤔
Did any of Aule’s students turn out okay?
BIRTH YEARS, AND SIGNS: NOW!
1981 - 17 December. Sagittarius.
‘64. Virgo
@@Rob-gy1dd Thank you, for your reply. In: Old; Enter.
{3, Eve will speak : 2, Y'HW'H spoke well.}
The guard the guard the guard. Wonder how that's doing.
Video 339