A Discussion Of The Thousandfold Thought By R. Scott Bakker - Prince Of Nothing
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- Опубліковано 19 вер 2024
- A spoiler-filled discussion of the third volume in R. Scott Bakker's Prince Of Nothing trilogy with @Johanna_reads @PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy and @thefantasynuttwork
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Thanks for hosting, Raf! It was a huge pleasure to chat with you, Jimmy, and Johanna about this thought-provoking trilogy!
Thanks for having me on for the discussion Raf!
Moenghus's goal was not to save mankind. His goal was that of a Dunyain - to master circumstance. This sets him against the Consult, because they want him / everyone dead.
He needed Kellhus because of his mistake allowing himself to be blinded to explore the Psuke, not realising that it would be beyond him. He completely hobbled himself and could not hope to succeed on his own.
Kellhus points out that Moenghus would eventually join the Consult, once he became aware of the No-God. If the Outside is real, then so is damnation, and so Moenghus is dammed. He would not allow this to happen, so eventually he would betray the Thousandfold Thought and allow mankind to be killed, so that the Outside can be shut.
This is why Kellhus kills him.
Exactly, Bakker lays it out at the end of TTT
Sometimes I feel Raf is way determined to prove a point that the picture painted is very different from the actual one.
He presents a very one sided view in the sexual domination and amusement in the series, while actually I cannot think of any other fantasy series that men are so often abused or used. Not even close.
Xerius, Conphas, Cnaiur, Achamian are all used or raped and there are more coming in the Aspect Emperor. I remember Raf wondering on the first discussion if men are going to be raped too. Well the answer was yes after all.
By the way I do think Cnaiur was bisexual from the beginning. The text does not imply that he was raped by Moenghus but he was fascinated by his magnetism and exotic worldviews compared to his Scylvendi ones. He showed him greater ways to enhance his upbringing and philosophy. The Tractless steppe. Cnaiur "loved" and admired him. His bitterness came from the fact that Moenghus abandoned him and he had to face the Scylvendi gossip and accusations. He betrayed his trust.
And how are you that sure that Cnaiur had conventional sex with Skin Spy Serwe. I always thought he experimented a lot with her/that 😁.
On other notes. Kellhus does not start that powerful. He lost from the Nonman in the prologue. He changes. Did you notice that he almost has no pov in this book. This is deliberate.
I also think that Bakker is slow on unveiling what really happens behind the scenes deliberately. Prince of Nothing is about the superficial facets. Aspect Emperor dives deeper into what follows. Metaphysics, lore, aliens etc. I think he masterfully builds the world, premise and tension. He is just not for readers who want an easy reading.
A last small detail I want to share because you mentioned the scene that Proyas wonders alone amidst the siege. I loved how he felt dizziness when he entered that house with the girl and her mother. The feeling that you trespass and get disoriented. I have felt that so many times when I trespassed. It was such a real moment. Bakker has an incredible skill in distilling the feeling of such abstract feelings. Great stuff.
So, once again thank you for another interesting discussion you people. I hope you ll go on with the Aspect Emperor too.
P.S. personally I found the Steel Remains really bland, especially in the characterization, compared to Prince of Nothing and Cnaiur much more nuanced than Karsa.
Raf we may not agree much in these books but I checked your label and you have a great taste. Epic/Doom/Power metal. Triptych of bliss
I just assumed all skin spies and Consults were male since there is no mention of females. Which raises the issue with procreation.
@@EricMcLuen If I remember well they are all Tekne products. I do not think that Skin Spies or Inchoroi procreate.
Srancs on the other side I think they do. There are female Sranc
Alan Moore started accumulating a reputation as a "rapey" author because many of his works included brutal rapes, including the comics (see Watchmen and League of Extraordinary Gentlemen). Even Steven Erikson has been criticized for overreliance on rape as means to make a character tragic. (see Beak's story or Rant's).
What does it mean when an author relies so much on this specific kind of violence?
Not sure, but citing male rape to counterbalance rape of women is not the counterpoint you think it is. It actually strengthens the charge of overreliance on this hoary trope.
@@Red21Viper Regarding Cnaiur, if not explicit I believe at least implied that Moenghus abused him as a child as opposed to some yound adult fascination.
@@marsrock316 my point was not to counterbalance the raping of women but to Raf saying that no men are abused in these books.
Thanks Raf! These discussions always take my appreciation to a new level. Sorry this book didn’t work for you, and I hope you enjoy all your future reads this year!
Great discussion! You did a wonderful job facilitating this discussion Raf. Everyone contributed thoughtful and provocative insights with the the trilogy. This is what I like from booktube discussions; discourse that gives me food for thought. Thank you all for taking your time time to share your thoughts.
This conversation had almost everything I love about booktube and why I keep coming back for more. I subscribe to all four of your channels and while all four of your taste are as different to mine as you are to each other, I really appreciate your intelligent takes and perspectives on books I both have read and those I have not. I have to admit booktube has really aided and enriched my reading experience, if only that I read more. And today you are discussing my favorite series! When I started poking around booktube a couple years ago my first search was for R. Scott Bakker and The Second Apocalypse and I came up almost empty and I scoffed at the entire enterprise as some kind of YA marketing ploy. But in the last two years the conversation I longed to hear has sprung up and I believe Bakkers' work will find its own natural level. Thank you all for being a part of that and renewing my faith in humankind.
That might be one of the first times the words "Bakker" and "renewing my faith in humankind" were uttered in the same sentence. Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed the discussion and found new booktubers. I hope we all provide further interesting content to you!
Thanks for the discussion everyone! I love these talks.
This whole series had some of the most disturbing scenes ive ever read in a fantasy book/s. After years i still think of them and shudder
1:39:10 this is a great point Raf!! I am so glad you caught that.
Every skinspy has a cock.
Thanks for this discussion and the others the four of you have had. I think this trilogy is amazing so my opinion of it is certainly less critical of it than yours Raf, but I found your criticisms interesting and enjoyed all four perspectives . I'm now 1/3 into Aspect Emperors book 1 and it's amazing, easily my favorite and a significacnt improvement on PoN so far. A change of tone while totally maintaining continuity. Now if only I could get all my local micro-breweries to bottle their west-coast IPAs in those cool Euro pop bottles, Cheers.
I enjoyed your discussions of this unusual trilogy very much. But I'm sorry to say that overall it was a bit too much about discussing Raf's justifications for simply not liking the books. In my opinion, you shouldn't judge a fantasy novel by the extent to which the world building fits your worldview, and that's the case with most of his criticisms. This is a bit of a pity, because after everything Raf implies about free will or determinism, I probably agree with him on many points as far as reality is concerned. But I don't think it's legitimate to make one's own beliefs the standard for judging a novel. Apart from that, however, it was a very enlightening discussion for which I would like to thank all participants. 👍
Thought exercise: what if the themes of these novels are a conveyance to push the author's real worldview on his readers?
If that's the case (and I think it is, not just a philosophic exploration), then any reviewer/reader, including Raf, has a responsibility to push back.
Counterexample: the major themes of the Malazan series are compassion and empathy for others, especially if they are apparent enemies/antagonists. Have you heard or seen any pushback on that approach? Not likely. Why? Because that is positive worldview, in and out of fiction.
Bakker and his intellectual mentors on the other hand... seem stuck in an Intro to Philosophy class, Nihilism 101. Prince of Nothing, indeed.
@@marsrock316 A better example would be Golden Compass which I found a major detraction from the series. But atheism is a popular belief so his storytelling faults are forgiven.
I would also disagree on the nihilism. Rather, he toys a lot with the idea of morality without consequence. Akka seems to care about morality but is damned regardless. Many feel they are saved therefore everything they do is moral and forgiven.
@@EricMcLuen Pullman is an interesting case. I'm not convinced his real world atheism informs his text at all.
He seems to think it does, many readers also believe the same.
But creating a world with souls, angels, supernatural elements is not a rational one.
Saying God died and was replaced still contains the idea of a supreme deity.
I'm not sure Pullam understands the fundamental flaws in his text and worldbuilding. He rejects the religious idea of sin, but in no way cancels any outside power having influence on human lives. A person of faith would not be overly troubled by Pullman's appropriation of biblical myths and legends, may even be inspired.
@@marsrock316 I agree with you, up to a point. Yes, Bakker can reflect on his own worldview here, and readers can reflect on how well they think it fits with reality. But Bakker is not portraying reality, but an invented world that follows the rules he dictates. You and I as well as Raf are aware of that. So for whom do you see a risk? I tend to agree with @Eric McLuan that Philip Pullman's books, which seem to be aimed at young readers with a missionary intent, are much more concerning. I myself am neither an atheist nor a nihilist, but find it very healthy as an adult to confront the very ugly sides of our species from time to time.
@@mirkoeinhorn09 I suppose any readers who end up seeing themselves as Bakker acolytes or disciples. They're out there and tend to lean toward a certain ideology.
This discussion here is very restrained and civilized by comparison to fannish adulation elsewhere.
For example, Jimmy seems thoughtful and a nice person, but I think he shows signs of conversion (and is evangelizing others). The passion and resistance to Raf's comments is evident.
I'm a fan of Dr. Chase as well, but he's been doing a lot of qualifying to justify his enjoyment of this series.
I wonder what readers in love with Bakker's fantasy say or would say if they read his more contemporary novels. It may not be his intended audience, but he's been adopted by the same demographic that Jordan Peterson claims to serve.
In other words, Bakker is more problematic than it comes across in these discussions.
@Jimmy Nutts I'm glad to hear that Blood Meridian is a favorite of yours, as the second trilogy has a noticeable influence from it, as well an homage to it throughout
First and third book were fantastic! Second one was also great!
I can’t wait to reread these books. But on to The Unholy Consult first. And probably a few other books first, haha.
Moenghus doesn’t rape Cnaiur as a child, he seduces him as a teen 1:25:40 - it’s very much about the society Cnaiur is in
Great discussion! I haven't read Aspect Emperor yet, but please don't spoil it, but I have a feeling that Kellhus, somehow, will manifest as the No God. Its just a hunch. But, the last cursed dreams we see from Achamian portray the No God as a cataclysmic tornado, a force of nature. I'm not sure if that's actually how the No God appeared or if maybe that was the image wrought onto the memory.
A few times throughout the trilogy the voice of, what I assume to be, the No God appears in the minds of several characters, always asking some derivative of the question Who Am I. Perhaps this was the otherworldly elemental force of the No God seeking out its manifestation in this age?
Bakkerverse - suggests that both the believer and the atheist are deluding themselves by buying into two competing memetic contagions. IE the memetic contagion that is Kelhus resolves in the scapegoating of Proyas
Love it.
I don't think it can be stated enough, but the fact is Khellus, or at least the Dunyain, aren't really humans any more. They have been bred, in isolation, for what, 10,000 years, to produce individuals with the natural traits the Dunyain order was looking for in their own: intellect and reflex.
The Dunyain training then gives them the tools that allows them to do what they do when interacting with non-dunyain, and the whole reason these abilities were developed in the first place were so they could see amongst themselves who was approaching the logos the closest. This renders most attempts to analyze them from a human perspective as if they were human, even vestigial human, moot.
The Dunyain are attempting to produce a self moving soul, an individual who DOES come before. But in that is a tacit acknowledgement that at this point, none of the Dunyain are self moving souls, meaning that, while they definitely come before all world bred creatures, they are still subject to circumstance.
It's even said a few times, Khellus turns EVERY interaction to his advantage. I think you all got caught up in the idea that Khellus is constantly manipulating, and he is, but he isn't necessarily "scheming with evil intent". He is INSTINCTIVELY navigating his world to produce the best outcome for whatever his goal, in the moment or long term, is. Like Khellus even says, the path he's walked has been prepared, and it was, by his father.
All this suggests Khellus is ultimately just as beholden to circumstance as everyone else, at least, until he becomes "more".
Remember the real reason Khellus kills his father. If left to continue pondering, any Dunyain would eventually come to the conclusion of their own inevitable damnation and become the most powerful generals in the army of the consult in order to avoid it. Why isn't Khellus subject to these same concerns? He isn't Dunyain any more.
He is something else.
Cnaiür is more than his abuse. And he's far deeper than Karsa....
His homosexuality doesn't stem from his abuse. Ironically, his heterosexuality is probably a manifestation of his abuse from his culture, and masculine expectations.
Cnaiür doesn't kill Moengus out of vengeance for any abuse, he kills Moengus because he made him love, and broke his heart. He knows Dûnyain cannot love. He was deceived into loving Moengus. So it's vengeance for deceit, not for any physical abuse.
About "is a certain character mad?" we have the answer in the "what has come before" of the first book of the second trilogy. It sums up the first trilogy in a shorter way than the previous "what has come before."
Raf has never been more insufferable. I hoped he may have been a better host than he was a guest. What’s more shocking is how easily one can dominate the conversation of three booktuber’s across six hours.
So do you all plan to continue these discussions into Aspect Emperor or is this the end of the read along?
I think we're all determined to continue reading but probably after a little break.
@@RafBlutaxt I was curious where it was going so I jumped immediately into the Judging Eye. Yet after a couple chapters I was hoping we'd have a little break. I like what I've read so far, but there's other stuff I want to read. And after reading a good chunk of The Dawn of Everything, I want to read some other academic stuff.
I when I finished the Thousandfold Thought I realised I didn't really know what the Thousandfold Thought actually is beyond possibly being some kind of optimal flow state superpower that allows the wielder to always find the shortest path (maybe?). What did I miss?
I hate this. The whole trying to share intellectual digestion of what is... is mutual masturbation...but at arm's length. It's cringe but at the same time....