@@ThinkingandTinkering I was surprised by the first tests too, also the outer fins effectively give that turbine a larger cross section so I'm not convinced that it's a totally fair comparison, I would expect it to give slightly higher output than the internal equivalents. However, what I think might be going on, with the airflow is, the aerofoil shape increases the speed of the airflow across that surface, so effectively it should be hitting the "blades" faster. with outer fins that might be producing more edge turbulence, with the inner fins that is pretty much contained, so possibly the inner aerofoil design is allowing the fins/blades to make extract more energy from that increased speed.
Thinking further, if those thoughts are correct then it'd be interesting to do a hybrid version, the internal aerofoil for the air entrance, fins/blades halfway along, then an external aerofoil for the air exit. My thinking there being the second aerofoil would create a lower pressure, than would otherwise be, to help "suck" the internal air back out. My thinking/modelling thoughts are largely due to me looking at the circular Flying Gyroscope design as a ( moving) closed loop aeromine. As such that would suggest it won't scale up linearly, there'd be a optimal diameter of the circle. However I think it could then be scaled up by using concentric aerofoil circles.
Fins on the outside creates more torque … what if you put the magnets on the inside then the coil right next to that? Or possibly embedded the magnets into the “bubble” for the lift on the leading edge so they became part of the air foil, then get the coil as close the air foil as you can. I find your iterative concepts and process fascinating. Well done.
I think the problem there means the coil then, effectively, becomes part of the aerofoil system, disrupting it's flow and function. I'm thinking of ways to do something that would minimise that type of disruption and maybe even add a little "parasitic" torque/functionality. One idea might be to have an inner, spinning, axal, that extends back to an axial flow generator it's leading face being a conical shaped turbine Which is more to minimise the losses than anything else as it obviously wouldn't function as well there, in it's own right, as it would with nothing in front of it, but my idea there is to minimise any interference through the front turbine and to add some torque where it inevitably does do so, hopefully as much as it takes away by interfering with it ;-) It'd also give a new element to, further, possibilities If you get the proportions correct, there'd be a point, partway along the axal, beyond which a pivot point could be chosen that would mean it then also acted as a tail fin and pointed the whole device into the wind.
I believe the main difference you saw between the two fin types comes down to the difference in swept area as well as the outside fins having a longer lever arm to interact with. It is entirely possible that the internal one is just as efficient.
@chris993361 I considered this too, for the same height fin, internally you get less area, the answer would be to increase the internal fin height so the areas match
I'm curious... How does one get torque from air flowing through a cylinder, with or without a 'wing' section? (add angled fins and you have a prop, so fair enough)
@ThinkingandTinkering I think the difference here is in the direction of air flow relative to the cylinder. On a Flettner rotor the air flow is perpendicular to the cylinder axis where here it is parallel with the axis. With that in mind, I also can't see how any foce is generated with a cylinder. Love this sort of though.
Thanks for the replies... so it remains a mystery to me. I presume there is more to this than air flowing through a cylinder, it's just not obvious to me from the video. Maybe the previous video will reveal something. Half a mo'.
I learned about the "flying gyroscope" in 1981 in junior high school......from an *astronaut* from NASA. I was lucky enough to get picked to help with their presentation and they asked me to tell, not show, them how to fold a paper airplane and my first instruction was "fold it lengthwise" to which they said, well the longest length is diagonal and they folded it diagonally and then proceeded to show how to fold it into said "gyroscope" though this version is weighted on one side so it could fly stable. I've never forgotten that experience.
The back of cylinder the prongs with the bearings in the middle could the prongs be propeller blades, or would the turbulences make them surplus to requirements
We made those flyers out of paper back in the late 70s when I was a kid. We called them "ghost cups", and they could be seen everywhere in all sizes and colors. For quite a while, they were *THE* paper airplane.
With the 'fins on the outside' variant, perhaps more efficiency could be had by placing it inside a cylinder, so that the airflow over the external fins can be fully utilised. The cylinder could then be used to mount the coil etc.
Nice idea. Liked those when I was a kid. Rather than placing magnets on the rotor(?), maybe place a reluctor ring on the rim with stationary magnets and coils around the edge, and some kind of perimeter bearing support. The lighter rotor would be easier to spin. Wondering if you tried fins on both the inner and outer survaces, or on the leading edge? Traveling again, hence late comments. Enjoyed the video, as always.
Could you try using a high valued "fuzzy skin" in your slicer or add a golf ball like surface to the side where you want low pressure (I believe). From my memory the surface creates air ripples so that the pressure is greatly reduced so many times more efficient from that surface.
Great idea. if the 'wings" were only a mm tall, and went from top to bottom at an angle and more of them, I think the airflow over that surface would cause spin and less drag, and could be added to the internal design. anyways, jjst thinking out loud.
It looks like the outside fins have a larger surface area than the inside fins. If so, that could account for the difference in static torque. I wonder which design would produce the greater static torque with fins of equal surface area?
Thanks for the encouraging comment! Content creators like yourself are very rare on UA-cam! I post thousands of comments on a wide variety of topics and channels and I get zero replies! You are always there on a dime to giving positive feedback and I love that about you! I am so glad you are back up and at'em! God bless you Rob!
What happens if you use the wing profile on the directional fins inside the final design you had in this video? Will having a lifting surface improve the efficiency enough to overcome the deficiency over external fins?
The wind wall is a great idea, or maybe the ridge line... Or perhaps the funnel type you were prototyping. Eitherway this has promise! I wonder if you could spare an afternoon to go over some ideas for my power needs on a 1 acre site in the fens. Obviously I'd trade my time helping you first of course.
I think you should ask KrisHarbourNaturalBuilding about helping you with that. He knows a lot about solar-, wind- and microhydro-power, batterypacks, chargecontrollers, inverters, etc... And he's starting a business in helping people go off-grid. He can build the whole system for you or just advise you on how to build it yourself. Or if you built something that doesn't work properly, he'll figure it out.
Yes I think they do show promise. I get asked a lot to help mate - I get about 4-500 emails posts and comments every day and there will be 20-30 requests just like yours - and that's every day. It's just not possible for me to say yes - I am most sorry but If I did say yes my entire life would be given over to that.
@@ThinkingandTinkering that's understandable, and maybe with your answer being out there other people will see that it's just not possible to open those floodgates. Keep tinkering my friend and I look forward to seeing how you test this idea in a scaled up manner.
@@ThinkingandTinkeringRobert, we have both had a tough year, both suffered loss. Mine was compounded by getting my property back (via the courts) and having to deal with tens of thousands of pounds of damages. But now I have a clean slate with it and I'm looking forward to getting some innovative power generation and storage solutions in place to make the most of the freebies that nature give us. I hope I speak for most of us when I say this Robert, "you are a real gem, and we're lucky to have you tinkering and showing us that you can do whatever you put your mind to". Perhaps you need some sort of email screener to help with your "admin" load so you have more time to get on with what you do best mate.
I thought you would make use of the lift from these. I'm thinking 3 arms almost looking like a regular turbine, but at the end of each arm you put your "tube" facing the wind but with an adjustable angle. If you adjust them sideways, your arms may start to rotate.
Either design could benefit from a cone. Have a cone on the inside fin design (wider side toward the fins) to increase pressure and rotational power. The external fin design could have a a cone funneling air to the outside fins for the same thing. Either design could use the same generator magnets and coils on a shaft and have them spinning as one piece.
Robert, I like the direction this is taking, but I wonder; (1) How to maintain a constant distance between magnets and coils at the perimeter of the cylinder when the wind generates lift and (2) How to effectively align the whole assembly (cylinder, plus perimeter coil housing) into the wind?
@@ThinkingandTinkering Perhaps, if you build two concentric rings, one to carry the magnets and one to carry the coils, both having an aerofoil lead profile. If both rings have similar lift, the distance between magnets and coils will be maintained. Also it may be possible to exploit the pressure differential that will occur between the two aerofoil rings, similar to the principle exploited by Aeromine.
If the 2 concentric rings were configured to rotate in opposite directions, the speed of magnets passing over coils would be much greater. If the inner ring has spiral flutes on the inner surface and the outer ring has flutes on the outer surface it should be possible to rotate them in opposite directions.
I would be curious to know if 3, 3 bladed propellers on one shaft, with each one offset a bit (Balanced of course) would be a better turbine than just one prop?
carl the blind man. i like the idea. made a fling saucer in the 70s using balsa and doped paper 18in diameter. worked after a fashion? take a look at the "Plasma Channel" latest..
Have you looked at the earth inductor compass, the UA-cam account tsbrownie posted it. It's how planes used to find magnetic north as they traveled closer to the north pole When it's aligned with true north it's electric output is increased several times. Can this be utilized in your creations?
Hey Robert... Wondering if you've encountered the silicon ceramic battery yet? Sometimes called silicon anode battery {I know silly name} Wondering if you might teach us to make them?
Hi Robert, a quick question if you don't mind. They are now using heavy flywheel technology to fill in the gap between wind/solar generation and I was just thinking why aren't they also using pendulums as a generator backup or steady pulse input to the grid. Is there a reason you can think of appart from the obvious £cost. Thankyou in advance 👍 😊
Thankyou Robert, I have been studying a small pendulum for quite some time and I am amazed at how little energy it uses considering the amount of movement gained. I have been running it on a solar charged battery and I am sure if combined with wind it could be a useful addition to home self generating system. Maybe it might be something you consider doing at some point. I am half way through building what I am calling a large pendulum as a novel lamp basically a bit of fun but I am sure it could be put to a more useful use. Thanks again.
I was actually surprised that you achieved any rotational bias in the first tests at all. Then I thought about the spinning air from the blower.
yeah - maybe
@@ThinkingandTinkering I was surprised by the first tests too, also the outer fins effectively give that turbine a larger cross section so I'm not convinced that it's a totally fair comparison, I would expect it to give slightly higher output than the internal equivalents.
However, what I think might be going on, with the airflow is, the aerofoil shape increases the speed of the airflow across that surface, so effectively it should be hitting the "blades" faster. with outer fins that might be producing more edge turbulence, with the inner fins that is pretty much contained, so possibly the inner aerofoil design is allowing the fins/blades to make extract more energy from that increased speed.
Thinking further, if those thoughts are correct then it'd be interesting to do a hybrid version, the internal aerofoil for the air entrance, fins/blades halfway along, then an external aerofoil for the air exit. My thinking there being the second aerofoil would create a lower pressure, than would otherwise be, to help "suck" the internal air back out.
My thinking/modelling thoughts are largely due to me looking at the circular Flying Gyroscope design as a ( moving) closed loop aeromine.
As such that would suggest it won't scale up linearly, there'd be a optimal diameter of the circle. However I think it could then be scaled up by using concentric aerofoil circles.
Excellent video mate. Love waking up to a new video from you. RIP Patti
Thank you kindly and especially for your condolences
Fins on the outside creates more torque … what if you put the magnets on the inside then the coil right next to that? Or possibly embedded the magnets into the “bubble” for the lift on the leading edge so they became part of the air foil, then get the coil as close the air foil as you can. I find your iterative concepts and process fascinating. Well done.
like it mate cheers
I think the problem there means the coil then, effectively, becomes part of the aerofoil system, disrupting it's flow and function.
I'm thinking of ways to do something that would minimise that type of disruption and maybe even add a little "parasitic" torque/functionality. One idea might be to have an inner, spinning, axal, that extends back to an axial flow generator it's leading face being a conical shaped turbine Which is more to minimise the losses than anything else as it obviously wouldn't function as well there, in it's own right, as it would with nothing in front of it, but my idea there is to minimise any interference through the front turbine and to add some torque where it inevitably does do so, hopefully as much as it takes away by interfering with it ;-)
It'd also give a new element to, further, possibilities If you get the proportions correct, there'd be a point, partway along the axal, beyond which a pivot point could be chosen that would mean it then also acted as a tail fin and pointed the whole device into the wind.
Would have liked to have seen a small stream of smoke to see the turbulence effect. Thank you as always for teaching us something new!
cheers mate
You could print boxes with a funnel shape coming IN to the holes for a larger wind harvest area instead of cutting holes in a board.
absoluely
Awesome video I have a sister named Patty and she was born in 1959 God bless your Patti..🙏
oh wow - what a coincidence! God bless you too
Bump on the outside, fins on the inside? Fascinating. I love how your mind works! 👏 👍
Thank you! Cheers!
Nice work. Thank you very much.
cheers mate
how much of the torque is being added by the fins alone, you need one without the aerfoil to test just the fins.
go for it mate - i know you have the equipment to test it
Thanks Robert, this is really interesting.
👍💪✌
cheers mate
Any value in adding tubercles to the vane or airfoil in this case? Does the cylinder need to be whole? Looking forward to seeing more. Thank you!
I was thinking that too
Tubercles are a very good idea
Brilliant as always
cheers mate
I believe the main difference you saw between the two fin types comes down to the difference in swept area as well as the outside fins having a longer lever arm to interact with. It is entirely possible that the internal one is just as efficient.
@chris993361 I considered this too, for the same height fin, internally you get less area, the answer would be to increase the internal fin height so the areas match
@grendel1960a sounds like it would do the trick to me.
could well be - i like the internal fins anyway so that is what I am going with
Hi just proves, the obvious & easiest route may not always be the best way to go, all the best. 👍🐝😎
Very true!
great video Robert, I just wonder what will happen if fins are inside and outside at the same time
give it a go and see mate
2:20 that air-foil design is basically a Dyson "blade less" fan, at least part of it anyway.
Yep
I think it came along before Dyson - it's not my idea mate - I am just playing with a previous design
Great stuff keep em comin' mate. cheers
cheers mate
I'm curious... How does one get torque from air flowing through a cylinder, with or without a 'wing' section?
(add angled fins and you have a prop, so fair enough)
Flettner rotor - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flettner_rotor
@ThinkingandTinkering I think the difference here is in the direction of air flow relative to the cylinder. On a Flettner rotor the air flow is perpendicular to the cylinder axis where here it is parallel with the axis. With that in mind, I also can't see how any foce is generated with a cylinder. Love this sort of though.
Thanks for the replies... so it remains a mystery to me. I presume there is more to this than air flowing through a cylinder, it's just not obvious to me from the video.
Maybe the previous video will reveal something. Half a mo'.
I learned about the "flying gyroscope" in 1981 in junior high school......from an *astronaut* from NASA. I was lucky enough to get picked to help with their presentation and they asked me to tell, not show, them how to fold a paper airplane and my first instruction was "fold it lengthwise" to which they said, well the longest length is diagonal and they folded it diagonally and then proceeded to show how to fold it into said "gyroscope" though this version is weighted on one side so it could fly stable. I've never forgotten that experience.
That was an extremely cool experience mate - thanks for sharing
Thank you Sir Robert!
cheers mate
The back of cylinder the prongs with the bearings in the middle could the prongs be propeller blades, or would the turbulences make them surplus to requirements
i don't know mate but interesting idea
Brilliant 😊
cheers mate
I agree it would be very interesting to see a windwall of the inside finned one
on it mate
We made those flyers out of paper back in the late 70s when I was a kid. We called them "ghost cups", and they could be seen everywhere in all sizes and colors. For quite a while, they were *THE* paper airplane.
cheers mate
Next iteration is the optimal shape ring with tubricals on the lead & / or trailing edges. Reduce that drag even more?
If you mean Tubercles, great idea.
great idea mate cheers
With the 'fins on the outside' variant, perhaps more efficiency could be had by placing it inside a cylinder, so that the airflow over the external fins can be fully utilised. The cylinder could then be used to mount the coil etc.
cheers mate
I had one when I was much younger. Really fun toy. Its airfoil shape was to the inside.
I have seen both mate
Nice idea. Liked those when I was a kid. Rather than placing magnets on the rotor(?), maybe place a reluctor ring on the rim with stationary magnets and coils around the edge, and some kind of perimeter bearing support. The lighter rotor would be easier to spin. Wondering if you tried fins on both the inner and outer survaces, or on the leading edge? Traveling again, hence late comments. Enjoyed the video, as always.
i didn't try it - want to give it a go?
Excellent.
cheers mate
would either slip into a darwin as I still think they could be the new chimney
good point mate - cheers
Could you try using a high valued "fuzzy skin" in your slicer or add a golf ball like surface to the side where you want low pressure (I believe). From my memory the surface creates air ripples so that the pressure is greatly reduced so many times more efficient from that surface.
good idea - cheers mate
Could you use elongated low profile magnets ~as~ the fins on the outside by angling them ?
Yeah I suppose you could
Great peoject! 👏
cheers mate
Brings to mind the 'ring-airfoil grenade' being developed in the 1960's.
i didn't even know there was such a thing - thank you mate
Great idea. if the 'wings" were only a mm tall, and went from top to bottom at an angle and more of them, I think the airflow over that surface would cause spin and less drag, and could be added to the internal design. anyways, jjst thinking out loud.
I like the thought - thanks for sharing mate
The flaps always help! Like a yf-23 jet fighter.
cheers mate
how much does the height of the cylinder affect efficiency
also try with fins on both outside AND inside
no idea - but you could try
It looks like the outside fins have a larger surface area than the inside fins. If so, that could account for the difference in static torque. I wonder which design would produce the greater static torque with fins of equal surface area?
personally I would think not as the size difference isn't isn't that great - but maybe
You could put fins in and out and place your magnets on the outside between your fins!
cool idea
Thanks for the encouraging comment! Content creators like yourself are very rare on UA-cam! I post thousands of comments on a wide variety of topics and channels and I get zero replies! You are always there on a dime to giving positive feedback and I love that about you! I am so glad you are back up and at'em! God bless you Rob!
@@themeek351 i try mate - i do get more comments than i can realistically answer but i always try and respond on new videos
What happens if you use the wing profile on the directional fins inside the final design you had in this video? Will having a lifting surface improve the efficiency enough to overcome the deficiency over external fins?
you can certainly try it mate
The wind wall is a great idea, or maybe the ridge line... Or perhaps the funnel type you were prototyping.
Eitherway this has promise!
I wonder if you could spare an afternoon to go over some ideas for my power needs on a 1 acre site in the fens.
Obviously I'd trade my time helping you first of course.
I think you should ask KrisHarbourNaturalBuilding about helping you with that.
He knows a lot about solar-, wind- and microhydro-power, batterypacks, chargecontrollers, inverters, etc...
And he's starting a business in helping people go off-grid. He can build the whole system for you or just advise you on how to build it yourself. Or if you built something that doesn't work properly, he'll figure it out.
Yes I think they do show promise. I get asked a lot to help mate - I get about 4-500 emails posts and comments every day and there will be 20-30 requests just like yours - and that's every day. It's just not possible for me to say yes - I am most sorry but If I did say yes my entire life would be given over to that.
@@ThinkingandTinkering that's understandable, and maybe with your answer being out there other people will see that it's just not possible to open those floodgates.
Keep tinkering my friend and I look forward to seeing how you test this idea in a scaled up manner.
@@Absfor30 Thank you for understanding mate - it may surprise you but it means a lot to me that you do
@@ThinkingandTinkeringRobert, we have both had a tough year, both suffered loss. Mine was compounded by getting my property back (via the courts) and having to deal with tens of thousands of pounds of damages. But now I have a clean slate with it and I'm looking forward to getting some innovative power generation and storage solutions in place to make the most of the freebies that nature give us.
I hope I speak for most of us when I say this Robert, "you are a real gem, and we're lucky to have you tinkering and showing us that you can do whatever you put your mind to".
Perhaps you need some sort of email screener to help with your "admin" load so you have more time to get on with what you do best mate.
Would another set of fins in the middle or back of the tube help increase torque or speed?
to be honest mate - i don't know - fancy giving it a go?
@ThinkingandTinkering I'm sorry I can't help. I'm still technically without my own home.
I thought you would make use of the lift from these.
I'm thinking 3 arms almost looking like a regular turbine, but at the end of each arm you put your "tube" facing the wind but with an adjustable angle.
If you adjust them sideways, your arms may start to rotate.
it should indeed mate
Either design could benefit from a cone. Have a cone on the inside fin design (wider side toward the fins) to increase pressure and rotational power. The external fin design could have a a cone funneling air to the outside fins for the same thing. Either design could use the same generator magnets and coils on a shaft and have them spinning as one piece.
You are talking about the Venturi effect I believe
good idea mate - cheers
Robert, I like the direction this is taking, but I wonder; (1) How to maintain a constant distance between magnets and coils at the perimeter of the cylinder when the wind generates lift and (2) How to effectively align the whole assembly (cylinder, plus perimeter coil housing) into the wind?
use guide rollers or just a very big bearing and maybe stick it in a Darwin structure
@@ThinkingandTinkering Perhaps, if you build two concentric rings, one to carry the magnets and one to carry the coils, both having an aerofoil lead profile. If both rings have similar lift, the distance between magnets and coils will be maintained. Also it may be possible to exploit the pressure differential that will occur between the two aerofoil rings, similar to the principle exploited by Aeromine.
If the 2 concentric rings were configured to rotate in opposite directions, the speed of magnets passing over coils would be much greater. If the inner ring has spiral flutes on the inner surface and the outer ring has flutes on the outer surface it should be possible to rotate them in opposite directions.
@@stevemcdowell8829 all very true mate - but I get a sense you might be over complicating here
I would be curious to know if 3, 3 bladed propellers on one shaft, with each one offset a bit (Balanced of course) would be a better turbine than just one prop?
not really
Could you not have a cylindrical one within in & so on to say four.
yes
carl the blind man.
i like the idea.
made a fling saucer in the 70s using balsa and doped paper 18in diameter. worked after a fashion?
take a look at the "Plasma Channel" latest..
the one where he makes an electret?
I look forward to seeing the next step.
cheers mate
energy in pull than push. placing fan in front pulls sucks air flow into fins spin instead of push blowing into rotor.
that doesn't sound right mate
I remember making these as paper airplanes when I was a kid.
awesome
Have you looked at the earth inductor compass, the UA-cam account tsbrownie posted it. It's how planes used to find magnetic north as they traveled closer to the north pole
When it's aligned with true north it's electric output is increased several times. Can this be utilized in your creations?
i can certainly have a look at it mate - cheers
Hey Robert...
Wondering if you've encountered the silicon ceramic battery yet? Sometimes called silicon anode battery {I know silly name}
Wondering if you might teach us to make them?
I can certainly have a look mate
Always interesting 👍
cheers mate
Hi Robert, a quick question if you don't mind. They are now using heavy flywheel technology to fill in the gap between wind/solar generation and I was just thinking why aren't they also using pendulums as a generator backup or steady pulse input to the grid. Is there a reason you can think of appart from the obvious £cost. Thankyou in advance 👍 😊
@@johnwynne-qx6br I would imagine that is the answer mate
Thankyou Robert, I have been studying a small pendulum for quite some time and I am amazed at how little energy it uses considering the amount of movement gained. I have been running it on a solar charged battery and I am sure if combined with wind it could be a useful addition to home self generating system. Maybe it might be something you consider doing at some point. I am half way through building what I am calling a large pendulum as a novel lamp basically a bit of fun but I am sure it could be put to a more useful use. Thanks again.
I was thinking spinning air cylinders on drones instead of propellers makes them a tiny bit safer if one hits you
that's a cool idea
I wonder how it would perform as a propeller for a boat
interesting question
Nice intro!
I'm glad you like it
toroidal or mobius like seems pretty cool things to try
go for it mate
❤
cheers mate
we used to make them from soda cans
nice
Why not use both? Put the inner air foils in the outer version
yep - go for it mate
So , as I see it, your getting lift on the top ( not useful), the bottom (not useful) left and right sides ( maybe useful). I don't get it
this is taken from something that actually flies and has been used in airplanes so lift must be greater than drag - also remember fletner rotors mate
👍
👍
@esra_erimez 👍
cheers mate
@ThinkingandTinkering 👍
the next question is if you throw them, how far do they fly?
oh mate - i said in the video
@ThinkingandTinkering lol, you said something like 600 feet, but I was wondering if you had tested your 3d prints
Actually I was really just joshing
Interesting!
cheers mate
not sure how that could generate any torque and all you're seeing is different amounts of lift.
You already know it spins - it is famous for it - ergo it generates torque - the question is how much torque
4th
awesome lol
Third
cool lol
yo first
awesome