Reflecting on British Islam and the Ummah's Future - Br.
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- Опубліковано 17 лют 2024
- In this episode of the Real Talk Podcast with Terron and Roxanna, we sit down with Umar Lee to discuss his recent trips to England, Turkey, and Bosnia. The conversation begins with Lee reflecting on his time in London and sharing his perspective on its Muslim community. Other topics include, but are not limited to, Mohammad bin Salman (MBS) and the significant changes he is initiating in Saudi Arabia, where Lee responds to whether these initiatives could be a shock to Saudi society and lead to negative consequences. During the podcast, we also delve into two books recommended by Lee for the relevance of their content pertaining to the phenomenon of online conversions to Islam and the over-romanticizing of Islamic history by Muslims.
Be sure to like, share, subscribe, and comment below if you have anything constructive to add to the conversation. You can find more of Br. Umar Lee by clicking the links below. ✌️🔗😊
/ @umarleee
umarlee.substack.com/
/ umar-lee - Розваги
Just found this channel Terron. Look forward to watching this video and others as well. Very interesting topic.
To bring up a very controversial subject . . . why doesn't the UK target good talented liberal muslims (Indian, Iranian, Indonesian muslims). Muslims that have liberal open-minded plural values and would have a much higher NPV income than UK citizens as a whole? And muslims who would make Britain great again? Why is it so hard to discuss the many different groups of muslims and how some are great?
Also another point. I found Lee's mention of King Charles interesting. I always considered myself a republican (i.e. abolish the monarchy) but since the passing of the Queen, reading ibn Khaldun's idea of asabiyyah (group sentiment), thinking about the relationship between law/politics/tradition/morality, and comparing the UK/US/continental Europe, I've since become a lot more agnostic about monarchy. There is a certain asabiyyah that comes with monarchy that it is totally irrational, but there is a very functional/realist insight that comes from understanding that this irrationality is inescapable, all we can do is try and engage with it harmoniously. Having a monarch sublimates a lot of the emotional/irrational feelings of/towards the state onto a separate body, that can be constitutionally separated from/put in tension with political will, or which otherwise gets transferred onto the president/juristocracy/race/celebrity/law for the sake of law (like in the in the US).
My mum for instance (a pak immigrant), hardly follows any UK media or culture, but keeps up with the realityshow-esque drama of the royal family, which creates a reciprocal asabiyyah between her and native britons despite all their differences. When Charles III advocated for being seen as a 'defender of faith' (instead of *the* faith, to also include islam) and made a speech about his appreciation of islam which did the rounds on whatsapp, british-muslims are/felt brought into the deep communal history/tradition/patronage/legitimacy which can also bring along some of the more conservative native brits, and has a social force/adds something that even the most well crafted equality/religious discrimination legislation could not. Brits have very little that define them as a citizen/community/group, except for being on the same island and a 'subject of the crown', but that irrationality can encompass a lot and (hopefully) be duly controlled/sequestered (leaving a lot of degrees of freedom elsewhere) rather than relying on ideas of citizenship (unwittingly) based on romantic ideas of the German People, ethnicity (like a lot of Europe), or on a 'rational' ideal liberalism (French) which can easily metastasize.
Great work. Good video
Why are London muslims more islamist sunni than muslims in muslim majority countries?
Didn't Khomeini and Khamenei fail? Iran was on the verge of becoming a superpower and top 5 economy and major technological leader in the 1970s. Iran's share of global income and wealth have collapsed. Iran's global influence has collapsed. And Shia around the world have turned against Khamenei, including Indian Shia. India has more shia than any other country other than Iran. And economically Indian Shia are rising very rapidly; and this greatly weakens Khamenei's global influence.
Within Iran; Khamenei has become deeply unpopular, illegitimate. Khamenei is older than Biden and has deteriorating physical health and cognitive ability--similar to Biden and Abu Mazen. Many Iranians think Khamenei will fall soon. The competition for the post Khemenei Iran is underway.
In what way is Khamenei's revolutionary government seen as a success? Even if someone thought highly of Khomenei in the 1970s, in 2024 Khamenei's regime is widely seen as a failing regime.
Turkey is a vastly more successful state than Iran in 2024. Malaysia, Indonesia and Bangladesh are more successful states than Turkey right now.
Aren't Indonesia, Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Egypt the natural leaders of the muslim world right now?
Great video, I’m a Brit-Pak, now living in the US, and one thing that definitely surprised me was the larger French influence here in academic/cultural/legal thinking, and the different perception of South Asians.
I wanted to flesh out a bit more of why I think UK Pakistanis in particular can be more salafi/duped by ahistorical nostalgia, related to the lack of historical knowledge + virtual/celebrity da'wahfication + identity crisis. Pakistan is a country founded on identity crises (and lacks a coherent identity more so than any other south Asian nation), it rejects any ‘Indic’ origin in understanding themselves as a people/history/culture (not to mention all the differing ethnicities within), and to this day hasn't come to terms with how Islam works in society, and how it relates to their own culture (to the point where the youth want to 'arabize' themselves), and with an inferiority complex towards arabs/persians/turks/the west. This identity crisis was multiplied in diaspora by 2nd gen British-Pakistanis, where there is nothing to look-back to/root you unlike being Indian/indonesian/balkan/arab Muslim in the same way, making it easy for political/historical salafism to fill that void, and especially in Britain/europe (unlike the US) where deep historical cultural tradition is so important.
The outsized racism/classism that affected the first-generation of immigrants also bred hypersensitivity and resentment, which I know has led a lot of Pakistanis of my generation being taught that they shouldn’t engage with culture/bid'ah, nor too much with the wider British (sinful) society (even though the culture war 'woke' hyperleft in the US is nowhere near as strong in the UK), along with a disillusionment/conspiracy mindset that’s moreso a hangover from Pakistan (and the closer connection). It is an interesting dilemma given my study and experience, as I genuinely believe the UK (for all its faults) has been the least islamophobic compared to other Western European nations and legal religious liberty (it is not as aggressively secular as france for instance). For more cultural aspects of integration I'd recommend a documentary by Mehreen Baig called "Lost Boys: What's Going Wrong For Asian [Pakistani] Men?" (there are some valid criticisms of this documentary but I think it's an interesting perspective that shouldn't be shrugged off so lightly).
Overall I feel these identity crisis factors have made it so the receiving and veneration of salafi funding/thinking (in some mosques, which otherwise had imams that spoke Urdu, and then lacked legitimacy/relevancy with newer gens pushing them online), gave Pakistani men/boys some identity to latch on to and made them much more susceptible to fantasies of a historical/identity/past that makes up a lot of salafi thinking, and which has recently sadly been metastasizing online with a childish rejection of participating in the world constructively and forms of ‘debate’/reasoning that has been merging with a lot of ‘red-pill’ thinking. I actually knew dawah-man from back in the day, he was the 'imam' for a friend's wedding, and I can't believe people take his religious authority/arab-bro/roadman cosplaying seriously. Regarding speaker's corner it's such a shame what's happened, it used to be a such an interesting genuine/place of discussion, but the live-stream/UA-cam/celebriti-fication of da'wah preachers and 'virtualisation' of speaker's corner has made it so the audience isn't the person you're speaking to, but making a youtube compilation/tiktoks.
If it wasn’t Great Britain 🇬🇧 there would be no “Pakistan.”
People from the Indian subcontinent are extremely influential among the UK elites, upper middle class and rich. And punch way over their weight (including a large number of Deshi British billionaires and senior executives) despite low performing conservative sunni Punjabi Pakistanis. Do you think this drives a lot of British and English animosity towards Deshis in the UK.
Where does the anti Deshi sentiment come from in the UK? Why is it so much worse than in the USA. Why do Deshi billionaires, hundred millionaires, 10 millionaires, millionaires and elites in the UK get so much negative pushback, blowback, resentment?
Until 1919 and 1947, Pakistani muslims were among the most liberal and mystical muslims in the world--very similar to other Indian muslims. What went wrong in Pakistan and among Pakistani Britons?
@@AnAn___ The successful people you are referring to are Indians 🇮🇳 and not really the other people (certainly not Bangladeshis).
@@AnAn___ Get your facts straight, there were NO “Pakistanis” back then.