Remote Work LOST Here Is The Numbers
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- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
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By: Jennifer Collins
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I drive an 1hr 1/2 to work to sit in an office by myself. I'm basically a remote commuter.
Lol
@@FordHenley86 lol, I’ve been in that situation 😂
Had a small team of 5 members, but 2 of them worked remote, 1 was recovering from a crash and the other left for another company.
There I was, not having a remote contract, going to the office to sit there to work with other people who were working remote.
🤦
Here's what's ridiculous, you drive all that to just sit in a chair on their place just so they can watch you, its not required for the job. And the most ironic thing is, if they really knew how to measure performance they wouldn't need to watch you physically, it wouldn't matter. I bet the day companies realize the middle-manager isn't required for anything is going to be funny, they can probably be easily replaced with normal ERP software (doesn't even need to be AI)
same, except i can carpool somedays and its 3 people, but realistically i either dont talk to them anyway or just continue hybrid where 2 days a week of actually meeting in person really is all we need. now everyone has there own threshhold but giving the housing market, it makes it hard to force people to live close together or drive 1hr plus and not expect lost productivity...
"Remote work failed" says Prime, working from home.
The hardest unemployed worker?
he's actually working from office
Well, he didn't quit Netflix because he wanted to work from home. I imagine they would've given him the option to work remotely had he wanted it.
Prime was always for mixed remote work, about 50:50
@@komerczkaprime is a low talent programmer who's big thing now is networking with people with actual skills and becoming a social media influencer so of course in person helps it in that
My biggest problem with an office workplace is the commute. That’s 2 to 3 hours where you can’t do anything. You’re stressed, have bad emotions about a traffic jam, and you don’t get paid for your commute or get to count it as work time. It’s lost lifetime, and you don’t get anything back for it. Sure, you can listen to music, a podcast, or an audiobook, but the way home can ruin your day more than anything else.
The commute can easily make it a non-starter for me yeah. I can buy the idea of having to go to the office at some regular interval, but if the commute is more than an hour long it just doesn't make sense daily to me.
That's a wild commute tbf. I'd make the conjecture most people's is 30min or less
@@DylanMatthewTurner You'd make the wrong conjecture.
@@UneededStudiosnah he's not wrong. However it's highly dependent on where. If you work in LA it's going to be a lot worse than cedar rapids Iowa.
also prep time. You don't get paid for the time it takes you to get your ass up and into the car or the hour it takes some ladies just to put their face on for the day.
Return to office would be a deal breaker for me, no lie
I heard that people do multiple remote work contracts at the same time, as in the modern world getting things done isn't really the point anymore in modern bullshit jobs.
People get jobs and visa on fake credentials. Which is worse?
@@williamkennedy8133i lost my high paying job because no one wanted to come into work. People don't realize work from home isn't a lockdown people realizing their worth/value. It also takes/took other peoples job. You have cleaners, security, contractors, and possibly future promotion all gone because the "corporate lifestyle " doesn't suit them anymore
This wasn't done by the working people. This was from the top down actions. 😢
@@krux02if my job found out I worked multiple jobs I would be fired on the spot. They’ve fired 3-5 engineers for this already. 😢
@@tsijr915 so no more boardroom for you huh? 😂good.
I think Prime is missing the fact that some people never leave High School and bring those tendencies to the workplace. I've been at a workplace where clique formation and even outright bullying was a real problem, in which case someone who wasn't in the "in-group" probably would feel more "included" if they were allowed to be remote and weren't experiencing those constant non-verbal rejections we all expected to leave behind in our teens.
Not to mention if your team is already composed of people working in other global locations, your day is already 100% video meetings. That must feel like its own layer of hell, having to commute 90 minutes into a noisy open-plan office just to have zoom meetings with people in other cities.
Pretty much lol.
My main job rn is remote save for 1 meeting in person monthly. On that day, the people who are in another state / country are joining the meeting remotely still, and they end up only semi present because the conference room microphone cannot actually pick up on everything everyone who is on site is saying.
Your second point is spot on. A guy I work with commutes 1.5 hours each way just to zoom with me all day. I'm consulting. He's full time. His company treats me like an adult and him like someone who has to be seen to be trusted. It's insane.
its even more ridiculous when you have to have meetings where 1/2 the team are in the office but on teams, and the other 1/2 are remote in another country. The meeting rooms are all fully booked too, so everyone is doing a virtual meeting, on their own machines exactly as they would at home... but in the office.
A lot of teams all already international. We still have to do daily meetings or work via calls and teams. Heck, sometimes you still do that in the same building.
You have a point, but it cuts both ways. Not every employee stayed in high school mode and some people don't like the social isolation of being by yourself for at least 8 hours a day.
As with any article, it fails to get into enough nuance. Everyone is different. I'd rather go back into the office because I'm a workaholic and WFH means I can start my day at 6 am and work until 6 pm (yes, I have no clue what is wrong with me either.) I prefer the separation between work and personal life. I enjoy the walk from the office to my house to clear my head. Ironically, they closed our location permanently so even if there was a mandate for people to go back to HQ I'd be granted an exemption.
So yeah, maybe if we live close to each other I'll go sit in your seat for you. lol
Most office environments are productivity killers, too much noise and too many interruptions, not to mention temperature issues resulting in some people sweating and some freezing.
not only that. i saw offices there are better storerooms than places where you want to work.
For a lot of his takes, I feel like he's simply missing the experience working in all sorts of companies. Developing or debugging anything remotely complex is absolute hell when you're being disturbed every 15 minutes. Not to mention offices cheapening out with uncomfortable, squeaky chairs, monitors that effectively function as a mirror, no air conditioning, etc.
Obviously, some of this would be different if your employer cared as much about your work environment as you (hopefully) do, but many simply don't.
@@pmHidden I've two small monitors in my office, they're VGA 😭😭😭😭
The temperature issue is a big one for me. It's either too hot or too cold and I hate it.
Feel like this is jr take. No way does your home have less distractions than office. Noise is also very easy to fix with headphones, the interruptions are what makes office work good. Either one of your team mates needs something from you or you just over hear something that either needs your input or is beneficial to you. My team has noticed a drastic lowering of knowledge and/or skill in our sister teams over WFH period and most of those things would come up in day to day work if we were at the office. There is just so much "hidden" information that is lost when you try to bring people up with only online meetings and always out of date documentations.
Temperature is also easy fix, just go colder. Whoever is "freezing" just has to put on a hoodie and your company can even provide those. I hear much more complaints about heat waves from people working remote since they dont have A/C at their home. I myself have woollen fingerless "coding gloves" that I can use at the office if the A/C is on the lower side.
Also people complaining about lack of equipment at the office, bring it up to your manager. If they can't get your office up to date equipment the problem isn't the office it is the company you work for at which point we are not even arguing about the same thing. It is like someone saying they love working outside when their job is to be a forest ranger and someone saying all outside work is for losers when their work is shovelling shit.
I will never return to full time WFO. It's too distracting, it's a waste of time commuting, hot desks suck and lack my preffered periphals and comforts, meetings run longer in person and have greater spinup/spindown time, lunches ABSOLUTELY run longer when you're with colleagues, there's catchups and social stuff and pingpong and guest speakers and on and on and on....
Fuck all that noise. I'm a better worker with less distractions working from my home. If you want social connections get it down at the pub with your mates after work, I'm not here to hang out and contribute to some ephemeral concept like "WORK CULTURE".
Your first statement seems a bit contradicting to the rest of the comment.
@@davidmcclellan4621 It's not.
Depends on the office honestly. There are some that i miss but they were in fact very close to home and i was mgmt so we all had everything we needed or wanted, including a very flexible WFH-whenever policy
I prefer working remote, period. Luckily im from a third world country, so everyone is pushing remote.
@@davidmcclellan4621 It depends on the country. Or even just the particular workplace.
Where I live work can be pretty distracting because of the lax work culture here, since bosses and coworkers will come over to gossip or invite you for a bite to eat etc. At home I can sit down for a 4 or so hours (with breaks to stretch) and work pretty much uninterrupted. Plus, I can multitask on work while attending a meeting that could have just been an email.
Corporate propaganda, period. Developer surveys left and right always indicate the vast majority of developers prefer to work remotely.
not even corporate more like landlord propaganda
@kuakilyissombroguwi yeah I lost a lot of respect for him this video. Almost seems like someone knows he has a large following of software engineers and is using him to push their return to office propaganda.
Realistically that's probably not true, but feels that way
@@MrJessig120 Maybe he is the manager now. His perspective and opinion makes sense that way.
@@MrJessig120no there are just normal non basement dwellers who also work development jobs
@@MrJessig120 I agree, it does feel that way, but also, at the same time, it does feel like there is a hidden agenda somewhere you know
I'll compromise. If a boss demands I come into my office, then the work day begins when I leave my house and I'll use Google Maps to be home 8 hours later.
That's cheating : D
I like it.
If that's was the case my actual work day would be 5 hours. Fine with me :)
This is only fair. I am giving you time that I would have spent on myself or my family. Those hours ain't free.
But you don't provide value to your job during the commute. It's an odd no-man's land and you have to be able to see that from both sides.
If employers payed for commute time, that would be abused out the wazoo. It's just not feasible when you look beyond your own "main character syndrom" self
@@Jabberwockybird cool story bro. I got paid to drive to client locations.
Prime can't accept that his 'collaboration' argument is entirely an extrovert take. Having people interrupt my flow with their 'advice' is a NEGATIVE.
WFH is great because merit takes center stage over politics and schmoozing.
correct.
I'm a hard introvert and benefit greatly from having more experienced people around.
I think any perceived limitations on collaboration can be overcome easily by just having communication primarily focus on remote first vs in office. Like yeah, if I'm going to wait until I see someone face to face in a meeting to say something important than the only time important things get said are face to face in a meeting...
100% I have to work in office, and while I like my coworkers, being there is very draining, a major distraction, and a total productivity killer. I can't think straight with other people around
Prime yaps too much to understand it :P
There have been several studies over the years specifically A/B testing companies for remote work. Most studies find that remote work is more productive for experienced workers, but more challenging for junior employees.
Common findings also show that collaboration in office generates more ideas, but less actionable/good ones, where as remote work generates less ideas, but usually results in a more actionable / realistic path forward.
This makes sense. The in office ideas are in the moment, and haven't been thought through yet. So they're not worth much.
Before proposing an idea remotely, people tend to think it through a bit first. Even just having to write it down gives you a moment to reconsider an idea.
Never going to work at an office again, I do more work at home
Yeah, taking out all that social anxiety, the distractions, the commutes, the chatting, the coffee breaks, the rituals, the reverence to all the colleagues.
So much more time put into actually working.
On the other hand, there is the risk of one turning into a sociopath.
The "feel more included in remote" is easy to explain. It's when you are EXCLUDED in office. By others or self-excluded. Remote is less taxing on the "fits in"/"doesn't fit in" part of things.
Anyway, hybrid is the most likely long term. But there's LOTS of "if's". I can go hybrid no sweat, it's a 30m subway trip. But i have colleagues that are 3h away. I'm single. But many have kids. Etc etc etc... Too many variables to have a "one size fits all" approach to it.
You would be surprised, that usually people with kids tend to choose to work from the office (less distractions).
Still working full time from home
What field you work in please?
same and with possibility to go to the office when i want, the flexibility is whats motivates me honestly
@@misters6749 software engineer in Volkswagen projects
Same. My team is spread out all over the world too, so I don't see that changing.
(I'm in Toronto. I have team members in Seattle, North Carolina, Scotland, Sweden, etc)
Stay strong, fellow remote worker!
The worse part of RTO is the commute. Waste of time, I arrive aggravated, and it takes chunk of time at start and end of the day to either get over the commute or preparing for the commute. Not to mention the added cost of commuting is an instant pay-cut.
It cost me more to commute to work than what I'm paying in private school fees for my daughter.
@@JP-hr3xqjust dropping in to say that you're an amazing father just for the fact you don't subject your child to the worthless torment that is public schooling
@@rusi6219 thanks bro. That actually means a lot.
I love how Prime looks at data showing something that he doesn't ideologically align with and just says "yeah no shot on that".
i suspect if it wasn't for yt or twitch or whatever the f platform he rambles on, he'd be at work rambling. He's that guy in the office who just won't shut t f up.
To be fair you've gotta admit that it was a god-awful dataset they were showing XD
@@shablam0yeah still a better data set than his feelings lol
@@shablam0 yeah, cannot agree more, the data was weird
@@noahdwhitneynot really if you're actually trying to extend the results to an entire population. But I guess we'll just go with your feelings instead 🤪
You can totally recreate spontaneous meetings remotely, just videcall a colleague with no specific topic to be covered, open a beer, and freaking talk.
There’s nothing magic about the watercooler, people are just afraid to have to tell their managers they’re having a friendly conversation over a call.
The magic of the watercooler is that people can just start talking to you, and you can't say no without appearing rude. Availability whether you like it or not is the point. It's not a good point, but there it is.
@@Mystic998 I have no intention to recreate the bad parts about the watercooler, just the good ones.
@@theondono unless you're actively asking if they want to talk beforehand, social pressure will do that for you
You must be one of those acoustic people because there absolutely is a difference between a video call and a live talk.
@@Nors2Ka I’m not saying there’s no difference, I’m saying there’s nothing magical about it. The problem isn’t in the tools, but in how people use them.
I have never had a cube mate. I had people nearby that would YELL on their phones, an older lady that would talk about her cats literally all day, and a dude that would watch helicopter videos with heavy metal BGM on youtube on 100% volume starting at 7:50 am... the manager had a morning meeting every morning that lasted until 11am and no work could start until the meeting was over. Also, one dude would fart and clear out the entire office (often)... everyone would have to leave the room because it was so noxious. This is in-office work.
> a dude that would watch helicopter videos with heavy metal BGM on youtube on 100% volume
Bro, I'm sorry, but I had to laugh.
@@3_smh_3 Made me think about those Kermit Omegle videos "Helicopter Helicopter AHAAHHHAHHHHAHHHHH"
I love prime saying remote work is not as good as in office when he worked remote for years
So what? He had his priorities.
He also worked on Netflix and seems they had a good culture, not all companies are Netflix or Google.
He doesnt say its not good, he says communication is easier in person. I am sure his work-life balance and overall quality of life improvements outweigh the communication issues that arise from time to time. Two things can be true at the same time
Do as I say, not as I do.
Of course he had his priorities. Just don't make a video with a bullshit title that wants to clearly get a reaction from people. Prime always complains that people jump to conclusions but makes videos like this
"In person is better, it just is, I can't quantify it but I'm confident in it" - Prime
Sounds like the same logic that executive leadership uses to justify RTO as well....
It's because he can't really quantify it. Because he has an outgoing, generally positive, and sociable personality. He's never felt isolated in an office because he probably attracts a lot of attention no matter what he does, and enjoys said attention. And in a room of 20 people looking for a promotion, only one actually gets it and the other 19 of them will feel some level of resentment, disappointment, and inadequacy because they didn't butter up the boss good enough.
@@Tawleynyep. there’s a reason he uploads himself talking on youtube for the world to see. and he talks and talks and talks and talks.
@@britneyfreek i hope you like his yapping lest this is the wrong neighborhood you are in
@@XDarkGreyX That's just the thing, people are here watching his content but nobody is being forced. I can appreciate the merits of socialization and something like hybrid office work, but extroverts are always the people that don't realize everyone else needs a break from them. Yeah it was nice chatting, but sometimes you need to STFU.
Amazon's representative (I forgot his rank): "It's just better. I don't have the data to back it up, but I know it's better."
L take.
Everything you are mentioning as positives are things that only an extroverted people-person looks forward to. I have social anxiety, and interacting with people is incredibly draining.
The cube mate frustration example you gave was my living hell. The guy sitting in my area used to just huff and puff and cuss at his screen and angry type and it'd just make me feel anxious and aggressive. And of course, I'd feel obligated to ask him "what's wrong" to get him to be in any state other than the one he was in. And of course, he'd just gripe for 30 min about something that he disliked, and wouldn't be receptive to any advice or help.
Also, I'm not sitting in Austin traffic for 2 hours each day to drive 6 miles to an office where we just zoom meetings. That's unnecessary pollution for the drive, unnecessary addition to traffic, unnecessary strain on public services (I saw a wreck literally every day), unnecessary cost for the business for the office space that constantly uses energy, and whatever charm this town used to have has been pushed out by more office buildings that aren't needed.
I don't need more collaboration. I need to be able to work without being interrupted, and no context shifting.
Luv u still.
Senior SRE been doin the thang since 2013.
Arch user BTW
Sounds like your social anxiety is something you should work on.
@@TheCactuar124 I've been going to therapy every Thursday since late 2018. The world has done me no favors in making me less anxious about society since then.
I have no social anxiety, everything you listed still applies. Working in the office just sucks.
The social enxiety it's a problem that you have. If you're doing therapy for that since 2018, you might need to change your therapist. Also if it's only related to work, your work environment is shitty.
I hear you, man. I don't have a social anxiety, but I'm fairly introverted and my need for human interaction is lower than humans have.
I don't need random people passing by, I don't need to hear other people having a phone call with their kids.
As far as communication goes, my policy is: If we don't reach a conclusion in 2 emails, we will have 15-30 minutes call to solve the problem. Works like a charm since 2020.
"bad manager" and "work life balance" is a meaningless comparison. It's a matter of degree.
exactly.
and also: that's why manager attrition is higher... a lot of "managers" in Gartner docs are actually engineers...
Hated that comparison cause once I just asked a manager of my manager to assign me to someone else. Took me half an hour to explain and I was no longer affected by manager driven attrition. Way easier to handle than RTO eating up 3-4h of your day.
A bad manager ruins work, a bad work/life balance ruins life.
I hate that this conversation perpetually revolves around considering all people to be a monolith. Long before Covid I remember a freakanomics podcast over remote work that has some researchers on who found that extroverts perform better in office and extroverts perform better remotely. A company tested several policies. All in the office was the worst performing. All at home was better, but a self self managed approach, allowing extroverts to go in the office as much as they want and introverts to work remote as much as they want provided the highest influence on performance and subjective happiness from the employees... it's a win win if you stop treating employees as children who don't know what's best for themselves.
>despite WFH increasing performance and costing less, it gives the managers anxiety
So that's why they want to get rid of it
*it makes the narcissistic control freaks melt down
@@rusi6219 not necessarily narcissistic, most are just incompetent to understand nature of their job and clinging to 'easy to see' elements of it. Also career success of most managers is independent on their management skills, so there no much reason to actually acquire competence.
@@L1vv4n true
By the way, the inclusion thing is easy to understand, a lot of companies are ridden with office politics, remote workers are spared from the day to day of these politics.
For example, I can see someone picking up certain people from my team for a meeting if I’m in the office, but if I am remote, I’m unlikely to know about it.
This kind of stuff quickly creates jealousy and other crap.
Exactly, it's even worse if you see somebody slacking off (like playing games or just drinking his 5th coffee with the hot HR lady), while you have 10 stories with your name in Jira. You would be more likely to say "fuck it" rather than get through those. While if those things remain hidden, you would feel anxious all day until you've done your work and can relax yourself.
This video is one of those rare moments where I can see that Prime just hates people working differently than he does.
For me, it's okay if you prefer in-office. I think there's space for both. But it's Prime's chauvinistic "only my take is the right take" view toward this topic that's really grating. He just cannot accept that there's a contingent of people who make a success of remote work, and that there's space in the working world for that. In-office and remote don't have to be mutually exclusive.
I think the issue is that people prefer in-office work can't have their way when other people want to stay remote...because then there's no one in-office lol
@@user-br6ve4lz6n Then leave the job and find one with full in office, or adapt. They're not entitled to having everything their own way.
He always did.
Same about when topic of luck is mentioned.
Maybe finish the video before commenting...
I love how biased Prime is on this topic, even when all of the odds and data are against his position. Keep up the good work man
He's always biased towards the way he's used to. Thought that was clear lol
And btw, his attitude is dangerous as he has a wide reach.
@@lppeddLately I've been deviating from his content because of this. Bro is a manager's propaganda parrot at this point. I used to watch his 1 hour videos until the end. Now I barely watch him and it does not seem like it's gonna get better.
@@brawlgammer4424 you will learn when you grow up.
@@lppedd He has a wide reach but it's not like people can't make up their own minds about things. Judging from the comments on his videos, most of his viewership is happy to just disagree with him about WFH rather than mindlessly assuming he is right.
Dude says you will be passed for promotions when you work from home because you’re not there in person to suck up to management as if that wasn’t terrible practice.
we should normalise working remotely to eradicate promotions via nepotism. Otherwise that’s how you get incompetent windbags as managers
That's also just not necessarily true. At my company there is no noticeable correlation at all between promotions and working from the office.
I've been working remotely for over 4 years, in a position that requires high degree of collaboration. Remote work has allowed me to fully focus on the collaborative part, and cut away the annoying distractions of an office. "Wanna go to lunch" - no, you idiot, I am working and I prefer to go to lunch in my own schedule and not lose focus. Also, saving 20€ on some hyper-salty restaurant made food. Commuting sucks, offices suck, gossip sucks, takeout sucks. Remote all the way.
""Wanna go to lunch" - no, you idiot, I am working and I prefer to go to lunch in my own schedule and not lose focus." - Would you ascribe this to being introverted?
For a variety of roles.. this is exactly why remote is so much better. I argue that you can find better talent world wide (or within a few time zones), and you can get more done because far few interruptions (typically) due to not being able to just snag someone or walk in to cube/office. The flip side is that sometimes people miss out on a short impromptu meeting that they could add value to but working remote wont even know its going on. I'd also say that it is perfectly OK to request one or two days a month where people meet in office.. but lets make sure its productive. Lets set up meetings to do white board, design, review, etc. Let's not just ass in a seat and maybe you join some meeting or what not but otherwise doing the same work you could at home.
@@b3owu1f I actually never seen this "impromptu short meetings" happening in real live in ~15 years of work. I think I actually seen something like this happen couple of times in team chats, including positions where I have to go to office.
Also I kind of hate white-boarding meeting, online and offline, because many people have extremely poor argument memory unless it is in writing and everyone forgets what was agreed on the second meeting ends.
But but but who will hear my loud keyboard now :((
@@dave4148 you keyboard isnt' loud enought, if your mic can't pick it up ;)
9:00 I am autistic, and remote work saved my career precisely because a lot of communication happens without being spoken. Remote work necessitates communication via Slack, Discord, etc., where people need to write everything down. In calls, the possibility of non-verbal communication is absent. This makes it easier for me to understand people because they have to say everything explicitly. Previously, it was very challenging to keep trying to interpret random noises and body language. That being said, remote work is not just beneficial for me; it is essential for me to thrive in a work environment
We had decades of experience with "in office" work.
Most companies gone from none to a couple years experience with "work from home", in the middle of covid, lockdowns, people getting sick, depressed, dying...
and yet... even with all of that they were fine, people were doing as much as before, and even then managers and CEOs are like: I'm not gonna measure and gonna ignore results and metrics and say that I WANT to see people at the office because... i want to?
How much general global happiness are we willing to sacrifice on the altar of efficiency though? How much productive time is lost to those 2-4 hour daily net commutes? We could go back to the days of assembly line work with 12 hour shifts, no breaks, terrible conditions if happiness wasn't a factor. But its a major factor, its why most of us got into this line of work in the first place. I know for me personally, I work from 5am to 1am when things get real. You don't get to do that in an office, they'll kick you out to avoid overtime pay.
You missed the entire point from Prime if you think efficiency had anything to do with it and if anything you have proven the point in this comment.
"2-4hr commute" is bias garbage. People live everywhere from 5mins to 16 hours away from their workplace.
"I work from 5am to 1am when things get real. You don't get to do that in an office, they'll kick you out to avoid overtime pay."
First up that sentence makes no sense, again proving Primes point entirely. That aside; Exploitation is not the discussion here, and if anything, you've justified a WFH policy will result in exploitation..
@@71Jay17He didn't miss the point. Prime was talking about better collaboration in office
@@BigCarso proving the point that humans suck at communicating with the written language. I recommend reading entirety of comments before responding, the same goes for the video. Try again.
It's amazed me for years how society allows a single party in an employment arrangement to unilaterally change the job description and expect the counter-party to simply accept the change without triggering a renegotiation. If you change the job description I'm working under, and I'm not willing to make the change, how is that NOT a layoff? If you have remote jobs, eliminate those remote jobs to create in-person position... you've eliminated those remote jobs. They're layoffs.
I really dislike that prime puts such a big focus on work efficiency in detriment of worker fulfillment. We as workers really must not care about work beyond the bare minimum that keeps us employed, and office work should be THE EXCEPTION for when there is more intense demand and a need for more dynamic group interactions
Welcome to the human condition. Like all relationships, work relationships require communication. We evolved and developed our communication in person, it was not behind a mic or webcam, email or instant messaging. Introverted or not, a lot of emotional intelligence is lost in video conferences more so in email and IM. Taking this away removes the emotional intelligence from every conversation to the detriment of all parties. Understanding people becomes fundamentally harder and the work place becomes more hostile. Take it or leave it, its a fact of the human condition. People will struggle more to understand you and will often dismiss you easier the more barriers you put up in your communication like this conversation.
@@71Jay17 I agree! And if you chose a job that requires you to put in that in-person work, that's a valid choice. What I mean is I think most people will end up realizing that the greater amount of time spent around friends and family at home is worth more than a higher paying position; sometimes it's not even just preference but, indeed, a need to spend those hours that would go to commuting doing daily household and family care work instead.
@@matheuslobo4555 the commute is a huge impact for sure. However again, its subjective, plenty of employees work a few minutes away to the extreme of being on the other side of the world. It just is not as black and white as this discussion is believed to be. It is entirely subjective just don't expect remote work to be cost free. Its more than the expensive commute, as this too can be good for some as well. For example: some people have no time for themselves and find it relaxing, except when forced to on the commute. When home, they are single parents or just have a lot of responsibilities when home. For 15-30-1hr they have that time to themselves to listen to music, ect.
Remote is different. Prime is right that there are advantages to in person communication, but he misses that there are advantages to written communication. First, it's just async, and people can respond at convenience, where in person is blocking. Moreover, I can read a message multiple times, and keep perfect record of what is said. Things aren't forgotten, and people are accountable to what they say. I can think through my entire response before sending it. I can edit my response if I need to before sending it. I can communicate code far more easily. Certainly you can have written conversations working in office, but I think there's a tendency to have in person communication when written might be better.
Yeah, I think this is the main thing Prime is glossing over. I think the benefits of remote-first communication standards actually outweigh the benefits of in-person communication. I think remote-first companies are just better at communicating.
This is not the first nor the second time you have not fully supported remote work for enterprise employees, which is weird taking into account you have been remote for years, and now permanently, being a content creator full time, just because "when you are talking to somebody in person things happen that are different"... no man, work will always be accomplish regardless, always, always, always... if work is not completed, that has nothing to do with being remote or not.
Sad, you were of my heroes.
Yeah it’s because he wants his situation to be better than everyone else. He’s a narcissist.
Commuting sucks and Office activities like team building activities, like macaroni pictures, suck. I don't want to stay longer as I get paid for. I don't want to waste my time in traffic, that I don't get paid for. Time is most precious thing that you cant get back. You can get only inflating money for your time, but you can't get your time back for money.
True commuting is annoying, but I get to read the news on the subway so it's not that bad. Though that hour is annoying to lose. However it's time for me to think and relax. Though it looks like you drive to work, which is tough lol
@@TechJolt3d Not just traffic Traffic jam
@@TheBadFred Rip
Meanwhile the NYC Subway runs more trains during rush hour so you can get home faster
though its not like we are impervious to delays
The cope is so high in this video. Prime just absolutely steaming that some people don't like working the way he does.
I know plenty of managers and engineers on both sides.
He's like a child that had the best toy and now doesn't want anyone else to have it.
@@Milk-rn5uqit's still wild to me that software kids have the balls to call themselves engineers 😂
@sathalel4084 what
@@sathalel4084 ok
In the long run remote work will win, is just more economical for all the parts involved in the job contract and that is how capitalisms works. Managers should stop "crying" and start updating it's practices to be effective without depending on body language and cohercion by in situ observation.
Managers aren't really crying. The issue is employees are crying and whining when asked to actually show up for work.
@@GrahamFoxDelta Let's say I'm an IT business owner (with not enough real state investment to this decision to have other effects). With the cost of having an office in a Big City + paying these workers enough to pay rent in that city I will probably have to duplicate my labor costs.
- If a manager tells me that communication is worse than in person or whatever reason, I will think it is their fault, because the job of a manager is communication, and a lot of companies have shown that it can be done without the office efficiently.
- If she tells me that he can make sure that people are working... Again it is the manager's fault because the job of the manager includes creating objective measurable targets. Other managers in other companies are doing it.
So again I think It's just a temporary thing. If you cannot manage your business efficiently online and it can be done online It will be just outcompeted in the long run.
Employees are not crying, they are just acting as rational economics actors. Companies with RTO mandates are not and sooner or later will perish.
@@GrahamFoxDelta "asked"
@@GrahamFoxDelta "show up for work"
Tell me you don't program without telling me you don't program
@@dlanbatal I do but okay go off bud 👍
I go to work to work. If i want to go to lunch ill go to lunch. I don't want to go to work to go to lunch.
Commute 2 hours * 5 days
Lunch 1 hour * 5 days
Interruptions at least 1 hour * 5 days
Meetings 30 minutes * 5 days
22.5 hours a week spent on in office work not working, plus about 60 bucks a week in fuel. Plus however much lunches cost (i dont eat lunch)
Thats insane! Id rather spend the time with my wife and kids, work on my own software projects, get out in nature... 22.5 hours a week worth of these? Yes please.
Plus i could take my wife out to a nice dinner a couple times a month for the cost of car gas commuting
I have autism. I manage it well most of the time. But the office is a huge productivity killer for me. Especially an open plan office with no assigned seating. And a culture of, "Hey just come up and talk to me whenever you feel like it even if I am trying to concentrate on something." It was less of an issue in my previous job when I had my own office and I got to sit at the same desk everyday, but apparently employers don't like that either because it makes some numbers look better on paper. Thing is, even handicapped by a relative inability to concentrate, I am usually a better engineer than many people around me. This leads managers to believe that it works fine. But it leaves me constantly frustrated that I am not getting as much done as I know I could, and stressed trying to manage distractions and spending most of my cognitive load on social interaction instead of my job.
I can 100% guarantee I am 2-3 times more valuable to the company if I work from home. If that isn't true for everybody it is literally not my problem. Period. It is also not my problem if making me sit in the office makes you as a manager feel better about my productivity. I am paid to work effectively, not to make you feel good.
primeagen examples about in office are funny. In reality it's more like muting and unmuting a call, because there is too much noise
What a terrible take. Yeah id love to sit in traffic for 2 hours a day to sit in office so i can go to lunch with people. Dont forget the unnecessary meetings to fill up an 8 hour day so we complain about how we have no time to get actual work done.
I’m never going back. In office, my desk was between the women’s bathroom and the elevator, next to all the Marketing people who chat loudly on the phone all day. I tried to get this changed for years, as I f*cking THINK for a living. I was told that our department was on an obsolete seating chart config, and that if they moved my desk, per policy, a different manager would lose her office. Yes really. And that is just one of 100 BS issues I had to deal with. Don’t get me started on the 6 hour meetings that had no participation by or impact on me, etc. Remote work cut out all that crap so I could actually work.
If I needed a reminder that Prime is a manager, it'd be this.
The company I currently work for makes everyone come into the office twice a week, with exception of me and another co-worker, since we both started working there relatively recently. We have to be there 4-5 times a week. I wouldn't mind coming to the office more often, if there were more people there. Most of the time there would be no reason to come into the office, since asking me what I'm currently working on, could be done via a Teams call or some quick E-Mail exchange.
It's just not worth it, driving 30 minutes, park my car in some random parking lot, walk to the office for 10 minutes, just to be there (almost) alone. The amount of time it takes out of my day to get there and going back home is a huge pain point and it makes me seriously reconsider staying there.
I have worked remote for over a decade. As long as someone is hiring remote I am working for them. You might get me in a office for a few weeks if I am desperate but I probably will not be around for more than a month or two while looking for a remote position.
I will RTO if an employer gives me an actual reason other than “culture” or “collaboration” because we all know they mean “productivity monitoring”
the actual reason is the executives told their board of directors they need X amount of office space, and now they arent utilizing it. That will get them fired.
@@pluto8404 bingo!!!
I think remote work levels the playing field. Before the rise of remote work, people who were more comfortable in social settings had the advantage. Now, with remote work being a greater part of everyone's lives, those people who relied on their social networking skills to get ahead have fewer chances to work that skill. While less social, but maybe more productive people, have a chance to get noticed through their work output. All this while their overall satisfaction goes up.
I have a hybrid work schedule (1 or 2 days in the office) and honestly, I cringe any time I have to interact with people at the office. Don't get me wrong, they're wonderful people, and they're always looking to spend time with me, but it's all so draining for me. I'm the type to get lunch early and eat it hiding out, so that I avoid people walking by trying to get me to go to lunch with them.
I think the struggle we're seeing in many industries is the shaking off of people who can't adapt to a less 'in person' setting at work. I have friends outside of work, I want my limited social energy to go towards them.
Idm talking to co-workers but I love being able to dodge the cringey mandatory fun meetings.
Having friends outside of work is such a huge benefit of remote work that noone talks about.
People aren't arguing with you that there's something different about being in person than being remote. In person. Remote. Many differences.
It's that we don't value those things. When weighing the pros and cons, I'd gladly work remotely. I don't value the pros the same as you, and the cons are so terrible I'm willing to lose everything to get the hell way from it.
I dont have a cube mate. Its old men talking about their garden. No joke theres a guy named herb and he comes over by me and its called the herb garden because he wont shut up.
Edit: nah small talk by me is toxic. Straight up politics and talking down on younger engineers. Even when they aren't actually working.
"I like working in the office, therefore RTO is good and should be forced on everyone!" (paraphrased)
incredible stuff.
No thought spared that some people want to work in the office, while others want to work from home.
If I'm a top talent, there's nothing you could do to make me work from the office. There's not enough top talent to go around, and if remote is what would help my company get said talent, you can bet your sweet behind I'll offer that and then some to get it.
Also, I do not understand what Prime is pretending not to understand. He says, "being in person is always going to have better collaboration results". I do not think anyone has ever disputed that. What people say is that if you force an RTO mandate, then your top talent will just leave for someone who will let them be remote.
So, the question is, "Is top talent and a significantly larger talent pool worth the compromise of slightly less optimized collaboration?".
No, I don't want to go to lunch. I want to work.
If you want to bring our jerky to a whiteboard and hash out why our pagination is broken we can do that though.
1. You ABSOLUTELY can measure productivity difference between and in office environment and out of office environment, especially in call center type jobs.
2. Enshitifcation, You're mislabeling easily identifying the low and high performing employees - Remotely, it is completely identifiable, easily.
I got hired during covid in a place that's 1.5 hours away. They told me at hire that they had no plans to change remote work. 2 years later, I'm back in the office 5 days a week. No help financially, no exceptions, no negotiations. My immediate shift in mentality is to grind stories and gain a ton of experience that i can carry to a new job.
Prime is just extremely naive about how unpleasent your average office job is. I don't think he has ever worked the kind of office job 95% of people experience.
It's a very simple solution. Force employers to pay transit times as work hours. That seconds employers will demand remote work to avoid paying you to sit through traffic jam.
That still happens since the long traffic jams already affect your decision making when picking where to live. It's just now going ti be visible on an accounting spreadsheet.
The collaboration argument is just BS.
WFH you can send a message to the right channel, and everyone who is interested or has time will respond. You know, async communication.
How does in office help this at all?
Turning around and distracting the person next to me is a far worse solution to my problem or question.
Random chance chats at the coffee machine are nice, but that probably happens once a week at most.
And it doesn't make up for the constant distractions. Getting tapped on the shoulder constantly whether you have time or not, whether you have an answer or not is a massive drain on productivity.
"higher feelings of inclusion in a remote environment vs on-site" I agree. no bs. I get included in things more often in remote than on-site. I get that its hard to understand. In office, no one asks me to go to lunch, no one visits me at my desk. I don't sit at the "cool kids" table. in office, If someone ever needed something, they slack me, even if they sit next to me. stand ups and other meetings? on slack, despite that everyone that are in these meetings are in the same room. But in remote, we have random chats in slack for gifs and memes and other bs, coffee chats, play games online together, trivia, ice breakers, company retreats, etc.
RTH - Return To Hell...
Since we were forced to RTO for 3 days a week sick days have skyrocketed. I'd love to see a chart of that for the wider population. All people in my workplace need to do is say they have the sniffles and the manager tells them to stay home, but they all have Covid Derangement Syndrome with all the boosters.
Not being able to work remotely is the reason I am now doing my own thing. Luckily I have a tremendous amount of skill, so I have a realistic chance to succeed. Time is the biggest concern though.
I talk to more people at work, working from home, then I ever did when I worked in an office.
Same
Says dude who screams to a camera for a living
If you want me to stay at the office, I want a 90s room, not that stupid open plan floor, and no cubicles either, give me a real room.
RTO will be such a productivity killer for my three side hustles.
Last time I went to the office no one was even there from my team. Everyone is in totally different locations so you just end up going into an office to just sit on chat or video conference anyway.
I'd only work from the office if I was working on something absolutely amazing that was changing the world. Otherwise I'm fine just doing it from home.
Another reason is if somehow I ended up in the c-suite and made enough to buy a home in a big city, then I'd do it.
L take Prime. Sure there are some downsides to remote. But you can't generalize that.
Professional communication has different context and meaning than personal communication. The growing number of jobs that can be automated only solidifies this belief.
I think the inclusion argument kind of makes sense. You can't feel left out if there is nothing to leave you out of. In my experience there is always a lot of office drama and gossip going on when people work in person that just doesn't exist on remote.
No one is sleep with each other, no one is not being asked for lunch or after office drinks, etc. The feeling of being left comes from being aware that something is going on while not being a part of it. When all your interactions are work related you just aren't aware of anything going on, hence no feeling of being left out.
the dumbest case of companies is the one actually letting you be remote but not officially on contract. I know one, so you tell me I get to stay in the shitty expensive flat in the city to work all day, because the HR and top management are too dumb to make it official? so I'm not comfortable moving out and benefiting fully from a remote job? while the company is organizing itself around remote work anyway ? You end up hating it even more
while doing code review with a developer in my team i noticed he wrote a component that his team leader wrote, and asked him why he didn't use his team leader's component, he said it wasn't right for him , but he never told that to his team leader, those 2 literally(!) sit next to each other while i was reviewing it remotely , and had to bring both to talk about it, so there's you're "in person" communication for ya...
7:20 being in person does not give better collaboration results, and thinking collaboration is some high and mighty good thing is where most your logic is flawed to begin with... Saying that you can't detect emotions or read the room so to say remotely versus in person is asinine. I seen corporate managers that are pissed beyond belief but keep a nice smiling face during an in person meeting.
This is a bias he'll always have and there's nothing to change him.
Sharing your experience definitely helps. I'm not surprised that a non-significant amount of people had better "engagement" but a significant bump up in intent to leave according to 4:30.
Simply put, he's a reactionary who doesn't recognize his own biases until the data supports his views just like the most popular of TechTubers such as Theo and Code Aesthetics.
Meeting in person can be more effective, but only because the people involved are more comfortable doing it that way. It's dependent on who's involved.
I'm very grateful that the company I work for still believes Work From Home benefits outweigh Return To Office.
Who cares if remote work is better for productivity or not? The weekend is pretty poor for productivity, 8hr days are pretty poor for productivity, maternity leave is pretty poor for productivity. That's an insane take.
Also I feel like a lot of Prime's commentary on remote work boils down to: "if you have a great workplace, where helping your team mates is recognised and rewarded, and people are willing to drop what they work on to help you, in office work is useful for that one time when you're stuck on this one particular issue that this one particular guy next to you knows exactly how to fix"
I take it Prime likes to commute 3h, get stuck in traffic in the middle of summer, clock in and work till break just to eat sandwitches he hardly had time to prepare.
All of that only to have a chat with Devin. 😂
Those all sound like your skill issues.
@@GrahamFoxDelta Nope, just a shitty existence. If you can even call it that.
My job is hybrid. Mostly remote, occasional days or meetings in person. In person days are easily my least productive and most awkward. And it has nothing to do with commuting, because I actually like driving and being alone in my car listening to music is kind of my happy place. I just can't work when everyone is talking, when I can't take breaks in my beanbag chair, when I can't verbally stim to myself, when I can't pet my cat... there's just so many things at home that are built around helping me specifically work. An office is never going to be built around me to the degree that my home is. It will always be a worse place to work. Even though I am the person that decorates and customize my cube more than anyone else in the office, it is still not the same as my home. Sure, collaboration is great, but collaboration is like 20% of the job. And also, in person communication is harder because you have to be careful about your body language and not just your voice, making it more overwhelming. Talking about what needs to be done only goes so far. The more important part is actually fucking doing it, and that's much harder to do in person. Also, I can't be as productive in general in the office, because I always have to look like I am working. Yet, at home, I can get up from my desk whenever I want. Build or pull taking a long time? Let me get some food. Waiting on a reply? Let's pick up some trash. Need to meet with my boss about what to do next? I'll go scrub something before the meeting. You can't do any of those types of tasks while you wait in the office... you have no choice but to sit around and waste time. It is way less productive than working from home, because you can't do anything except your job. Unless you want to chit chat with everyone, which again, is wasted time. And you mention going out to get lunch... who wants to do that every day? I don't want to waste a single dollar or second of my workday that I don't have to. I'm going to eat some chips at my desk while I work and call that lunch so I don't have to spend as much time away from my home. I'm not getting to the office early or staying late just so that I can spend more money going out to eat in a restaurant that is even noisier than the office. And that's still not as bad as when your cube mate brings something stinky and you are forced to smell that at your desk. At home, the only food smells are the ones I want, and that's very nice. The funniest part of all of this? I'm an extrovert. I love working from home because it gives me more free time to go volunteer and help people. If there's no meetings, I will volunteer frankly most of the work day and just do my work at home when I get back. Can't do that in the office. Perhaps if I had a job that was talking all day, the way volunteering is, it would be different. But when my work requires me to concentrate and focus on things that don't involve anyone else, I don't want to deal with anyone else lol. I'll save my socialization for where it counts, where it matters, and where it helps people. Volunteering is energizing but socialization in the office is draining
Guys, it's not about what's better, office or remote.
The real problem is about the freedom to choose one. And with mandatory RTO you do not have that choice, plain and simple.
you do, quit and go elsewhere. You're not enslaved.
@@NullParadigmbold of you to assume you're not a slave
@@rusi6219 Oh we all are to our governments but people tend to like the government enslaving us.
@@rusi6219 Oh we all are to our respective governments, but people tend to make exceptions for the state enslaving us.
My position is purely remote. It took me about a month to get used to working at home. I am happier that I don't have a commute and far happier that I can space out my workday when I need to. My friends who were given a RTO mandate, some of them thrived being back in the office but some thrived when they were remote. I don't understand why those who thrived remotely are being forced to be less productive by going back to the office.
Devs/Chat need to understand the nuances of an issue.
Facts, being in the office is better for culture and communication for certain issues.
That being said, RTO is bad and WFH is a good work life balance and isn't worth sacrificing for most people.
It isn't bad to acknowledge some pros over the other side.
I like being in the office and talking with colleagues. However, I sure as hell am not going back to daily office work.
"there's a whole lot of stuff that doesn't happen when you work remote" ... yep all the things that stop work from getting done
Remote i find asking questions can be a 15mins round trip for each message. Drags a 2min conversation into almost an hour if it's not urgent.
That's why you call when you need synchronous communication.
Adam Dymitruk says his company pays by the event model slice implemented. If you can run your company like that, then remote is great. Everyone makes as much money as they want and work whenever they want.
Bots coming out strong in this comment section
Gosh, this one was a loaded vid!
I absolutely agree that part of the metrics skewing is because of the availability of online work. I don't think it's a bad thing either; companies can poach top-talent just because their control freak employees wont let them have their life.
I think the paradigm shift that happened during the pandemic isn't something that can be undone. There will ALWAYS be a vocal group of people seeking it, now.
As far as VR and eyesight: VR is MUCH better for your eyes than a screen BECAUSE your eyes are focused out further. The lenses in these headsets allow your eyes to relax and defocus, which doesn't happen with a typical screen.
Yes, VR is bad for your eyes, but it's less bad for your eyes than using a traditional screen.
Return To Office is only a thing where pandemic forced what they thought was temporary change.
For the rest of us, it’s BAU.
😅 as a person with social anxiety, working in an open office is a constant source of stress for me (I have to take long breaks to prevent panic attacks, the stress makes my inmune system weaker and I get sick all the time, the noise and chatter makes it SO difficult for me to focus on anything... etc), my job absolutely does not require me to be at the office. Some people do work better in an office, for some people is incredibly detrimental.
At one place were I used to work the managers would snort coke, employees rolled joints in the restrooms and the ladies weren't shy to talk about their sex lives. When they told people to back to the office I quit.
I was a team leader for an IT support group in a big company when COVID struck. Remote Work was initiated. I directly started to see coworkers getting in more disputes because of chat/text dialog. I had to intervene and suggest them to make a call with webcam to talk about their differences. This approach significantly reduced the number of conflicts.
My company consolidated 2 tech buildings into 1 and gave the other building to a non-tech division that needed the space. Only folks whose jobs can't be performed remotely are in the remaining tech building, along with a handful who desired to continue to work on-site at least a few days a week. Everyone else is happily remote. We saved commuting time and costs, many of us now don't have to pay city taxes, and have a much easier time balancing family stuff like sick kids, medical visits, plumbers or other home stuff, and we're not all sitting in traffic for a big chunk of our day contributing to global warming.
I love working hybrid, I spend my day in the office when I need to solve problems, that mostly are caused by communication problems
Yes, in person and remote is different but you don't lose out on remote and thinking that you do is insane. If anything by being remote you can look at things a little bit more flat and logical rather than emotional. Cuz now you're just typing back and forth or talking or whatever you're not seeing each other react negatively. That has had a huge positive outcome in our company and has resulted in less bike shedding with devs just arguing over the best method and instead we're just fucking implementing.
I will NEVER work in office again after 13 years of in-office work, the last 6 years have been remote (started before COVID). An RTO mandate = instant resignation. I basically missed my first two children's younger years, I at least get to share the important moments with my third. This alone makes it not worth it, unless something disastrous happens and I get desperate.
3 hours of commute (in total) each day (suburbs to city office), chronic stress from traffic, car problems and the death of money associated with that. A ruined car from racking up all those miles and hours in traffic. Working well beyond 9 hours to complete what couldn't be done during the normal work hours because of the chronic distractions. My work day was like 13-15 hours with commute and getting things over the line, longer if there were major production issues.
I've been around the block, so I can and have worked with and around bad managers a few times, not scared to call them out on their BS and go over their head if necessary, many of them will get better over time with guidance. So yes, I will take a bad manager over RTO and wasting the rest of my life.
My experience:
working at AWS, which had a bad location, bad offices, no food or canteen, commuting was the worst thing, I just wanted to work from home as much as I could post-covid.
In 2022 I moved to Microsoft, amazing office, free car parking, 30 minutes commute, great canteen, gym,... basically I commuted to office every day just because it makes much more convenient to be in office.
What I see left out of these conversations is making connections. No matter what anyone says, those who work from home are at a disadvantage (particularly those who have ALWAYS WFH) when it comes to one day needing to rely on someone. You are never going to make the same connections over video as you would in person. To the other person, you are just a face on a screen, an expendable, you will never fully understand what the other person is going through outside of a call (video or otherwise) at a particular moment outside that call as opposed to you being there.
If you think corporations just view as an expendable now, when you work from home, you are FAR more expendable. Not just because you are just a face on the screen, but now competition is through the roof, particularly in programming.
You do feel more included in remote if you're an ethnic minority, short, disabled, or anything else that counts against you in person in the (white) boys club. There's a reason why senior management is often taller, white and more male, those biases are dampened in remote especially if you don't have an accent
In person has benefits and disadvantages. Being in the office doesn't necessarily mean "in person" - hot desking means people in the same team in the same office may still not be together.
During lockdowns, we made sure we had non-work online meetings scheduled. I've been amazed at how truly awful commuting is - I hate it and the company doesn't get 2-3 hours of extra benefit. At home I can work until dinner is ready - I'm not looking to catch a particular train home or fight traffic. I'm also not someone who's social life revolves around the office - it never has. I'm not coming to Friday night drinks whether I'm in the office or not.
My biggest problem with online meetings is how easy it is to tune it out and go back to work.
Sounds like a SKILL ISSUE from management side to unable to adapt to WFH