Dugtrio is broken because whatever a dugtrio weak Pokémon checks can run wild without the anything stopping them its sweep (like calm mind clefable). This isn’t present in gen 3 and little cup because letting charizard and moltres run wild is far less dangerous than letting sun volcorano run wild.
@@devinnall2284 I wonder, how much does the Defeatist clause impact Arena Trap and Shadow Tag? ``` Arena Trap Traps Pokémon that can Levitate or Flying-types while it has 50% or more HP. Shadow Tag Traps Pokémon except Ghost-types while it has 50% or more HP.```
That's purposely omitting it cuz this video is blatant propaganda. Goldengo and other ghost types so prominent this gen but Smogon just went and auto banned it at the start of gen 9 acting like there is no counter play at all to shadow tag or arena trap. Smogon wants a specific stall and sweeper and sweeper meta. They still have swagger banned too. How dumb is that? They banned houndstone instead of last respects as well. If block and and mean look were used more often, they would try to ban those too. Buncha cowards banning flutter mane when shadow sneak and sucker punch exist. A 55 HP and 55 DEF ghost type against that is DONE FOR easy counters everywhere you freaking look. Flutter Mane can't even learn will o wisp or reflect to deter physical attackers away...
@@blazechaos212 that would honestly fix the problem with trapping abilities it'll force trappers to run heavy duty boots over Sash or some shit cus you can render their ability useless just with hazards which will always be around unless smogon decides to ban hazards too 💀
Depends on how highly it's valued in the draft. I did a draft once with Arena Trap allowed and the team that had Dugtrio did well but your opponent always knows that it's doing which limits it.
Arena Trap and Shadow Tag shouldn't be allowed in Draft, it's similar restrictive as it is in regular Smogon metagames. Yes, you can slap on a Shed Shell, but Knock Off does exist and you don't want to be put into a situation, where you have to put multiple Shed Shells on Pokémon. Too restrictive and unhealthy.
@@Bene I couldn't agree more. People are like 'just slot Shed Shell', which... makes it boring, as well as unreliable. You can get Koff'd, and Megas ain't safe at all lol.
There's a reason most competent draft leagues allow trapping. It's not that big of an issue, especially when trapping mons are usually valued at higher point values. Running Shed Shell is a perfectly viable counterplay, but even then, Shed Shell isn't usually required. The opponent can simply outprep or outplay the trapper since they know it can likely come. It also helps that the trappers aren't that good themselves, with Dugtrio being incredibly frail and Gothitelle being vunerable to Taunt and lacking reliable recovery. Having the foresight that a trapper may come is something that the player can prep for and reasonably counter. It's much less restrictive on the builder than certain matchup fish mons like Spectrier and Dracovish, both of which are allowed in standard draft leagues (barring Tera Spectrier).
@@dededeisdosh4450 When AT/ST were allowed in singles formats, and especially when dug was around in newer gen OUs, they were quite literally almost on every team on ladder. You knew you were almost certainly going to run into a Dugtrio, but it was still so overpowering for the metagame. In singles you aren't just limited to the random draft mons you can afford to pick, you have so many more pokemon available to you and it was *still* far too restrictive on team building. Forcing Shed Shells on pokemon is a huge deal, there's a reason why knock off is inarguably a top 2 move oat, and dugtrio forces the removal of good items in favour of shed shells by sheer virtue of existing because thats the only way you, as the opponent, can do anything to stop it. It's easy to say "just predict every double", but if you think you can so reliably win those 50/50s that it negates what AT/ST do, then either you're lying to yourself or you need to start playing in tournaments so we cam see you above ABR on the HoF. How are you going to stop Dug from coming in when things like slow U-Turns and Volt Switches exist, or teleport in gen8? It's just not reasonable to expect the opponent to be able to perfectly play around the things trapping abilities do, they're far too restrictive.
Dugtrio also doesn’t really trap very much in gen 3 given that half the metagame is ground immune to deal with spikes and eq being the strongest physical move that isn’t focus punch or mega horn. It’s limited to trapping metagross ttar special walls and the two OU fighting types, and usually can’t KO these from full anyways. This makes it good pretty much only on special offenses or teams that really want weather gone
There's also the fact that even when you have Dugtrio trap and kill something, you do so knowing you're giving up a tempo for something dangerous like Salamence or Aerodactyl to come in that can take advantage of the choice band locked move, or get countertrapped by an opposing Dugtrio if you used a move other than EQ. It's difficult to judge when the "right" time is to bring out Dugtrio without team preview, which allows you to easily pick out potential targets from the outset and plan a strategy. Your Dugtrio could potentially be dead weight because you're facing some Superman team, and you wouldn't know it till you're already well into the battle.
dug is 'fine' in adv (it certainly shapes the tier and makes it what it is) but saying its only on special off or weather reset is just wrong. dugtrio spikes is the best archetype in the tier for pete's sake
Some Phrasing of yours reminded me of BKC especially the "Oops,.." and "What were you supposed to do? Not doing this and that?" and other stuff I cant think of rn but remember hearing them. Then looking at the description and seeing that Kevin helped you made me so proud to recognize such a thing
The Japanese name for the move, つばめがえし (Swallow Return), is based on the sword technique Turning Swallow Cut, which is named that way because the sword's movement during the technique resembles those of a swallow's tail in flight; so it's just the bird inspiration and the speed of the technique that gives it the Flying type, not the pokémon actually taking off to hit the opponent.
Dugtrio is also naturally fast with a 120 base speed, so there are very few Pokemon that can, not only out speed, but hit Dugtrio (preferably with multi hitting moves) for the ohko before it switches out.
Nah Dugtrio is real squishy. The way around that squishiness was to have a Mon weak to Ground or Electric use Trick to give a Choice item to the enemy's Mon on the turn they OHKO the Choiced Mon with said Ground or Electric move, locking them into it. Then toss out an Air Balloon Dugtrio, which would be immune to said Electric / Ground move the opponent is locked into, and then proceed to set up a Sub and Hone Claws to +6. That was the tech.
Yes, Dugtrio is squishy and will be usually ohko by almost any attack that connects. If it were this simple, Dugtrio (Arena Trap) wouldn't be banned. Plus, any Dugtrio player wouldn't just let the opposing side get a free attack on Dugtrio, they would most likely just switch out.
@@Shin_FTW I wonder, how much does the Defeatist clause impact Arena Trap and Shadow Tag? ``` Arena Trap Traps Pokémon that can Levitate or Flying-types while it has 50% or more HP. Shadow Tag Traps Pokémon except Ghost-types while it has 50% or more HP.```
My only PVP Pokémon experience comes from VGC, and I always love learning about the differences between singles and VGC. It always follows a similar train of "Why the hell would that be banned?" to "I guess that makes sense" to "Oh yeah, this would be broken if it wasn't banned, sorry for being an idiot". Thanks for another great video enlightening my ignorance.
Dugtrio essentially enables offensive mons to tear through balanced or bulky teams. For instance, you could have a balanced team with toxapex that checks charizard Y. Without toxapex your team can't handle charizard Y but you have toxapex there as a counter. If dugtrio removes that counter, charizard Y has a very easy time nuking your team and even if it's KOed, another offensive threat can come in and clean up. After all why are Pokémon such as chi yu banned? Well chi yu has essentially no counters. It has spamable stab fire and dark type attacks with high base power coming off of an amazing spA and if given a scarf it can outspeed most offensive counters hence it was deemed ban worthy as it was over centralising. Mons such as charizard Y are amazing in ou for the same reasons as chi yu. It has an amazing speed stat and high base power stab moves boosted by sun but it isn't banned and why is that? Well charizard Y has more counters and can't just come in and 2HKO the entire tier. But with dugtrio it can be broken as dugtrio traps and KOs/weakens charizard Ys counters. So while offensive threats might not be broken and have counters, if these counters are taken out of the equation thanks to dugtrio, the tier becomes over centralised and it's very hard to team build. After all you can test teams, change mons once you discover a certain weakness, IV train a Pokémon to deal with your teams weakness but what's the point of doing that if a Mon can trap, kill it and then your team can't handle the offensive threat? Sure you might say well you can just KO the check without dugtrio, but a good player won't let their counter to your offensive threat be taken out and they will preserve it knowing that your offensive threat needs to be countered. Dugtrio makes trapping and killing counters too easy.
In gen 6-7 it got banned because arena trap was abused on stall, think on balance where usually there are only one of two wall breakers? if you get to kill one of them early thanks to being trapped then it is over since your team can't break one mon or one core in particular so stall wins by default
@Jack Walker one turn is all dugtrio needs as to take out steel types it will OHKO them a lot of the time with a banded set, dugtrio will be KO'ed by a light breeze so even arena trapping lasting a single turn won't change anything is my guess.
I absolutely love the Dugtrio mega cheese strat that is: Step 1: Wait for your opponent to send out an electric type that is faster than one of your Pokemon that will know trick with a choice item, preferably one that is bulky so it can live a hit to use trick but will hopefully bait the opponent into using an electric move. Step 2: Swap into Dugtrio. Step 3: Profit.
Actually, this was the tech. Half of a team I used. Metagross - Clear Body Adamant @ Choice Scarf EVS: 252 Atk / 4 SpAtk / 252 Spe IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpDef -Meteor Mash -Zen Headbutt -Earthquake -Trick Starmie - Natural Cure Timid @ Choice Specs EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe IVS: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpDef -Surf -Ice Beam -Psyshock -Trick Dugtrio - Arena Trap Jolly @ Air Balloon 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe -Substitute -Hone Claws -Stone Edge -Earthquake The Starmie and Metagross were fast special and physical sweepers respectively, designed to outspeed most things. But they were also made to be frail. They'd hit Mons hard normally, but were also designed outspeed an Electric or Ground type (or if I predicted an Electric / Ground move) and Trick the Specs/Scarf onto the enemy on the turn they OHKO'd my Mon with their Electric / Ground attack, so I could just immediately send in Dugtrio without giving the opponent the option to switch on the turn I'd swap in Dugtrio. It worked pretty well in practice before I got them trained up to 100 lol - ua-cam.com/video/kIWuf6OGLLM/v-deo.html
Arena trap would suck except for maybe trapping clodsire. The ghost type one would be interesting given the current meta, but it would have to be on the right mon. Gothitelle would never be able to check the important ghost type mon in OU Atleast, it would just die
IIRC ghost types can't be trapped so shadow tag would be useless, and there's plenty of ground types that can take a hit and OHKO Dug in return in the higher tiers anyway
I gotta say I loveeee these types of videos and I’m really excited you’ve been making more of them. I have been watching you since you were doing Let’s Go wifi battles and have been trying to get into smogon since, but I find myself having a hard time understanding the theory and the deeper strategy of the game. These videos that dive into general concepts or mechanics and arent generationally specific really helps me understand the game as a whole a lot more. It’s also just super interesting in general! Thanks for this content!!
Really wish there was a platform like showdown that operated on a point buy system for team building instead of the tier system. Different total points in your team determine tier it's useable in. Operating on the same foundation as showdown that players will play to win, the mons that get used the most would get the most points. If you run a really strong pokemon like Dracovish, you could still use it in OU if the rest of your team was RU / UU mons. Likewise you might have a fairly staple team but maybe you swap out Garchomp for Druddigon as your defensive hazard setting dragon type to drop your teams rating a bit. Point cost being based on the individual pokemon could even go further and factor specific combinations, so for instance running gholdengo and great tusk on the same team would increase the rating on your team since so many players do the same. Would create a system that overall is less divisive between casual and high level play and encourages experimenting with team building.
I was just talking about this among friends recently, but I honestly would have preferred to see it tested in Gen9. So many things have changed, new mons have been added that outright outspeed and or take any hit from Dugtrio, as well as tera working in the benefit of everything around it (changing to flying or ghost type now has an added benefit). I also tried using it in ubers to catch Miraidons, but any non-choice Miraidon (which apparently is ~70%) just outspeeds and knocks it out. Nearly everything in OU also doesn't care about it unless it's severely weakened outside of probably Clodsire. I'm not saying it would end up being balanced, but I think it deserves a retest (especially given that Genesect was re added multiple times for who knows why) Shadowtag can remain in hell though unless there are nerfs to what it traps
@@ArecnaD2 that matters because, if a mon as bad as diggllet or trapinch can be op with arena trap, dugtrio wouldnt be balanced in ou even with the recent power creep because the power gap between dugtrio and the pokemon nowadays is way tinier that the one that existed between digglet and the gen 8 mons
I wonder, how much does the Defeatist clause impact Arena Trap and Shadow Tag? ``` Arena Trap Traps Pokémon that can Levitate or Flying-types while it has 50% or more HP. Shadow Tag Traps Pokémon except Ghost-types while it has 50% or more HP.```
@@sla7889 You can theorymon as much as I can; my opinion stands that it's worth a retest in a generation where you can quite literally become any type to beat your counters
Switching is the main mechanic in single battles. It takes away 5 options from your opponent. That's more than half... Games with less options become boring and predictable. Just the presence forces the opponent to NOT switch in their EQ weak mons in case of a uturn or a double. No thanks keep it banned
I would love to see a Battle Revolution type game the can only connect to Pokemon Home. That way, it won't be too restrictive on a single game or generation
The funny thing is, it’s been allowed in LC for quite a while. The Pokémon with the abilities were banned, but not the ability. Diglett has been stellar every generation as a result. If you want to know more about why, here’s a video on it ua-cam.com/video/b32Be5Rj4bs/v-deo.html
arena trap isn't broken, there are things that enable it that are game breaking like focus sash/pivot moves. it was rich get richer situation. it didnt strain the team builder in gen 3 - it only did so once it got absurd tools to help it. those things fundamentally changed mons to a different path of balance, thus why I much prefer generation 3, as gen 4 was where these extreme game warping items/moves were added. (focus sash, choice scarf, stealth rocks)
I dont know man, by that logic nothing is broken. As you can always pair something incredibly good with something else equally bad. Wonder Guard on a Pokemon with 1 hp for example. Traping is so strong that even pre-evos who get it can put it to good use. If that isnt broken, idk what is.
@@walaceandrade4046 i think people overreact to having their mons trapped and dont like playing around it. getting diglet in on anything requires a free turn.
@@DkKobaADV the whole concept behind using traping is that once their wall is gone, their team crumbles thus forcing their wall to show its face and do their job. A single pivot move into the trap target switching in and its gg. And if they dont bring up their wall and you let off a powerfull hit they are now down a mon. Its heavely favored for the traping team.
@@DkKobaADV That's what makes it centralizing. Unless you plan on only running teams with several walls, it gets traps the necessary check and wins. Even then, it can trap multiple times since walls aren't exactly offensive threats. It'll just trap and kill one wall and then trap and weaken another one.
I wonder if trapping abilities would be reasonably balanced if they made it so all switches on the field happened at the end of the turn? dugtrio would be able to do its thing once, but its ability would make it easy pickings for a revenge kill itself. You could maybe play some mind games with substitute protect to get switch, but otherwise dugtrio would mostly be a trade or a late game asset. If the same arena trap immunities applied though, air balloon dugtrio would be interesting in the hands of a good player.
This is a very interesting video, and I really like the animation style. It’s been so cool to see your content grow over the past decade I’ve been subbed :]
35 HP 55 DEF 70 SPDEF "Detrimental" to gen 9's health when entry hazards are EVERYWHERE and so focus sash means nothing, and YOU DIDN'T mention all the powerful and plentiful ghost types this gen completely ignoring abilties arena trap..
I personally feel dugtrio was good for the gen 5 metagame. it was one of the few things that could threated tar and toed and made sun, and stall viable. Basically, does the same thing it did in gen 3
Isn't the real problem choice items limiting item diversity? Like there is shed skin available and other items that allow better counter play, but are not playable because they are weaker than choice items.
Are you a part of the FSG channel? I only ask because you mentioned BKC was ur homie and this videos script would of fit perfectly on a vid over there lol
Couldn't arena trap be fixed by putting in a 1 turn delay? You can still trap, but then you'd have to sucessfully predict when your opponent switches and switch at the same time to actually get the ability off. Instead of a reactionary quite riskless countermeasure.
This video perfectly encapsulates why I don't play competitive pokemon you'll ban everything that's good. Dominating an opponent in a pokemon battle is actually really satisfying. But when you ban good pokemon or good abilities or items it just takes away the fun. That means you can only use the same c***** few pokemon A team
Its just 1 pokemon basically tho and with proper knowledge and skill you could double switch a trace porygon2 and wreck it even set up on it with evolite recover calm mind
Thing is, it isn't just 1 Pokémon though. As the video said people were using diglett to do exactly what duggy did. Also saying porygon 2 makes arena trap balanced isn't a good reason because not every team should be forced to run porygon 2 to avoid having dug trap their other mons
nowdays with paradox mons that are so fucking fast Dugtrio would just be amazing in OU or even pretty good in Ubers, why does he have to stay in the garbage?
Frail and Grass types from Gen 8 and 9 are really buffed so it's very easily countered to say the least, and half of the meta are flying, others are levitating, others use Air Baloon and others can use Magnet Rise so it can't Trapquake opponents easily. Unless it gets a signature move like Wugtrio but at some point mechanics at Ground typing should change, EQ shouldn't hit flying targets but moves like Mud Shot which is spitting Mud to your opponent should hit. So it shouldn't be banned at all. Gothitelle is far better at trapping pokemon and way bulkier and with very extended moveset. And yeah with Dugtrio it's play also is very restrictive, Choice Band, or maybe gimmicky Focus Sash with Reversal, Swords Dance, Sucker Punch etc but still it's not that easy to put Dugtrio into play cause of it's frailty to get hit by a move.
I think dugtrio is a good mole Pokémon I like his red noses, he should be the mascot for comic relief. As for arena trap I love the feeling of stopping my opponent from switching, to have that power over them feels exhilarating. However when it happens to me, I want to go to my car, open the bonnet, stick my head in, and smash it repeatedly until I lose the brain function required to comprehend what had happened to me in pokemon.
arena trap offers the possibility to simply take out a thread unless it has momentum, doesn't touch the ground or is a ghost type. So it's not completely busted Currently, Tera is also allowed in the meta, which can achieve the exact same thing, even easier you have to bait your opponent but it often works well. That's why I don't understand why arena trap has such a problem, but it doesn't bother some that the opponent can change into an unpredictable type?
I feel are arena trap shouldn’t be banned. Maybe it’s me wanting chaos or abilities to be used to make Pokémon good as a whole bit dugtrio though is frail though I feel that is overlooked at least to me
I hate team preview personally. I don't want to know what my opponent is running. It takes away the surprise factor. Also, arena trap shouldn't be banned.
Even then being forced to use your Tera is a good way to make progress as now your opponent still has theirs that they can use anytime during the match. Also it has the benefit of making certain mons weaker to things it would normally check. Say you Tera flying your clodsire to not get killed. Well now your clodsire can’t wall things like iron valiant as easily since it lost its fairy resist
great video jolten is similar jolten can revenge kill anything but always uses substitute and then decides if it wants to secure the kill or can baton pass the sub if the opponent decides to preserve weekend Pokemon with a switch. and then the best part is a strong thunderbolt is hardly resisted and is immuned by ground so they almost always switch in a ground and EQ. meaning if you sub+baton to a Gyarados you get a free win.
Jolteon is in no way similar to Dugtrio lol. Dugtrio literally traps the pokemon and murders it with x2 or x4 EQ. Jolteon in comparison does nothing close to forcing that much progress consistently.
dugtrio has only sand veil and arena trap io gen 4, not sure if evasion abilities are banned in gen 4 but if they are then it would be fully banned there.
Man kinda disappointed people hate this so much its literally hurting Dugtrio so badly. Like its just trash like why ban its SIGNATURE ability that defines it to the max as if you are using it in ou without it in the first place. Alolan dugtrio is better in lower tiers for crying out fucking loud
I think these videos would be better if you used key words to remind you of the topic and spoke about it naturally. that way it doenst sound like youre reading off a script
Why would they? While the games have always allowed for player versus player battles the games are clearly built around a single player campaign. As such competitive was always an after thought. And that's assuming it was thought about at all.
This is why I keep saying they need to allow Run Away to let the pokemon always switch out regardless of abilities like Arena Trap and Shadow Tag or moves like Wrap and Fire Spin.
I wonder, how much does the Defeatist clause impact Arena Trap and Shadow Tag? ``` Arena Trap Traps Pokémon that can Levitate or Flying-types while it has 50% or more HP. Shadow Tag Traps Pokémon except Ghost-types while it has 50% or more HP.```
Would be an interesting video to explain why it's not banned in little cup in any generation
sounds like a fun topic. i know a few players that actually want diglett banned as well...but also mienfoo haha
Trapinch IS banned in gen 7, but diglit isn't which I think is interesting. Edit: yes I know Trapinch has base 100 attack, I was just replying to OP
@@camsons Trapinch has the same base attack (100) as it's double evo, flygon
@@camsons trapinch has base 100 atk.
Dugtrio is broken because whatever a dugtrio weak Pokémon checks can run wild without the anything stopping them its sweep (like calm mind clefable). This isn’t present in gen 3 and little cup because letting charizard and moltres run wild is far less dangerous than letting sun volcorano run wild.
You forgot to mention that in Gen 6 and onwards Ghost types are immune to all trapping abilities, including Arena Trap.
I wish I knew that before I tried using Tera Fire Magnazone to trap Gholdengo I thought I was so clever
@@devinnall2284 I wonder, how much does the Defeatist clause impact Arena Trap and Shadow Tag?
```
Arena Trap
Traps Pokémon that can Levitate or Flying-types while it has 50% or more HP.
Shadow Tag
Traps Pokémon except Ghost-types while it has 50% or more HP.```
That's purposely omitting it cuz this video is blatant propaganda. Goldengo and other ghost types so prominent this gen but Smogon just went and auto banned it at the start of gen 9 acting like there is no counter play at all to shadow tag or arena trap.
Smogon wants a specific stall and sweeper and sweeper meta. They still have swagger banned too. How dumb is that? They banned houndstone instead of last respects as well.
If block and and mean look were used more often, they would try to ban those too.
Buncha cowards banning flutter mane when shadow sneak and sucker punch exist. A 55 HP and 55 DEF ghost type against that is DONE FOR easy counters everywhere you freaking look. Flutter Mane can't even learn will o wisp or reflect to deter physical attackers away...
@@bigtoblerone8446 wait swagger is banned?! Who tf even uses that 😭
@@blazechaos212 that would honestly fix the problem with trapping abilities it'll force trappers to run heavy duty boots over Sash or some shit cus you can render their ability useless just with hazards which will always be around unless smogon decides to ban hazards too 💀
It’s way too restrictive. Still against it being allowed in Draft, ‘cause it makes the building boring, but that’s another debate.
Depends on how highly it's valued in the draft. I did a draft once with Arena Trap allowed and the team that had Dugtrio did well but your opponent always knows that it's doing which limits it.
Arena Trap and Shadow Tag shouldn't be allowed in Draft, it's similar restrictive as it is in regular Smogon metagames. Yes, you can slap on a Shed Shell, but Knock Off does exist and you don't want to be put into a situation, where you have to put multiple Shed Shells on Pokémon. Too restrictive and unhealthy.
@@Bene I couldn't agree more. People are like 'just slot Shed Shell', which... makes it boring, as well as unreliable. You can get Koff'd, and Megas ain't safe at all lol.
There's a reason most competent draft leagues allow trapping. It's not that big of an issue, especially when trapping mons are usually valued at higher point values. Running Shed Shell is a perfectly viable counterplay, but even then, Shed Shell isn't usually required. The opponent can simply outprep or outplay the trapper since they know it can likely come. It also helps that the trappers aren't that good themselves, with Dugtrio being incredibly frail and Gothitelle being vunerable to Taunt and lacking reliable recovery. Having the foresight that a trapper may come is something that the player can prep for and reasonably counter. It's much less restrictive on the builder than certain matchup fish mons like Spectrier and Dracovish, both of which are allowed in standard draft leagues (barring Tera Spectrier).
@@dededeisdosh4450 When AT/ST were allowed in singles formats, and especially when dug was around in newer gen OUs, they were quite literally almost on every team on ladder. You knew you were almost certainly going to run into a Dugtrio, but it was still so overpowering for the metagame. In singles you aren't just limited to the random draft mons you can afford to pick, you have so many more pokemon available to you and it was *still* far too restrictive on team building. Forcing Shed Shells on pokemon is a huge deal, there's a reason why knock off is inarguably a top 2 move oat, and dugtrio forces the removal of good items in favour of shed shells by sheer virtue of existing because thats the only way you, as the opponent, can do anything to stop it. It's easy to say "just predict every double", but if you think you can so reliably win those 50/50s that it negates what AT/ST do, then either you're lying to yourself or you need to start playing in tournaments so we cam see you above ABR on the HoF. How are you going to stop Dug from coming in when things like slow U-Turns and Volt Switches exist, or teleport in gen8? It's just not reasonable to expect the opponent to be able to perfectly play around the things trapping abilities do, they're far too restrictive.
I like how competitive analysis channels are expanding to different topics, this expands the love of competitive pokemon among the people.
Dugtrio also doesn’t really trap very much in gen 3 given that half the metagame is ground immune to deal with spikes and eq being the strongest physical move that isn’t focus punch or mega horn. It’s limited to trapping metagross ttar special walls and the two OU fighting types, and usually can’t KO these from full anyways. This makes it good pretty much only on special offenses or teams that really want weather gone
There's also the fact that even when you have Dugtrio trap and kill something, you do so knowing you're giving up a tempo for something dangerous like Salamence or Aerodactyl to come in that can take advantage of the choice band locked move, or get countertrapped by an opposing Dugtrio if you used a move other than EQ. It's difficult to judge when the "right" time is to bring out Dugtrio without team preview, which allows you to easily pick out potential targets from the outset and plan a strategy. Your Dugtrio could potentially be dead weight because you're facing some Superman team, and you wouldn't know it till you're already well into the battle.
I like to liken it to gen 4 magnezone personally in gen 3.
@@GIR177 yeah this too nothing like having Zapdos pass a sub for free or dd mence / tar ripping thru ur team cause of the free turn
dug is 'fine' in adv (it certainly shapes the tier and makes it what it is) but saying its only on special off or weather reset is just wrong. dugtrio spikes is the best archetype in the tier for pete's sake
@@ryankeathley995 that’s special offense
I love how people say smogon loves stall when stall's best friend will forever be behind bars lol.
Love these discussion type videos Joey, like Wolfey’s videos but more geared towards singles. Hope to see more soon!
I'd honestly enjoy seeing videos like these for doubles from Joey too
@@zerothefox9027 eh. He just doesn't have enough knowledge. At least not enough to be as thorough as in a video about singles
@@lucabertani225 That and we need more singles representation anyway. Doubles shouldn't be the primary as much as it is.
@@infamousinferno2506 nah what
@@lucabertani225 that doesn't stop him from learning
Some Phrasing of yours reminded me of BKC especially the "Oops,.." and "What were you supposed to do? Not doing this and that?" and other stuff I cant think of rn but remember hearing them. Then looking at the description and seeing that Kevin helped you made me so proud to recognize such a thing
I think the important question about Dugtrio is that how in the world does a mole stuck in the ground can use a flying type move like Aerial Ace.
The Japanese name for the move, つばめがえし (Swallow Return), is based on the sword technique Turning Swallow Cut, which is named that way because the sword's movement during the technique resembles those of a swallow's tail in flight; so it's just the bird inspiration and the speed of the technique that gives it the Flying type, not the pokémon actually taking off to hit the opponent.
@@darkfiredragon3410yeah aerial ace is boosted by new Sharpness ability now and now dugtrio CANT learn aerial ace in gen 9...
Dugtrio is also naturally fast with a 120 base speed, so there are very few Pokemon that can, not only out speed, but hit Dugtrio (preferably with multi hitting moves) for the ohko before it switches out.
but its so squishy and stealh rock and a strong prioty can kill kill it
Nah Dugtrio is real squishy. The way around that squishiness was to have a Mon weak to Ground or Electric use Trick to give a Choice item to the enemy's Mon on the turn they OHKO the Choiced Mon with said Ground or Electric move, locking them into it.
Then toss out an Air Balloon Dugtrio, which would be immune to said Electric / Ground move the opponent is locked into, and then proceed to set up a Sub and Hone Claws to +6.
That was the tech.
Tons of Mons can OHKO Dugtrio with a neutral hit.
Yes, Dugtrio is squishy and will be usually ohko by almost any attack that connects. If it were this simple, Dugtrio (Arena Trap) wouldn't be banned. Plus, any Dugtrio player wouldn't just let the opposing side get a free attack on Dugtrio, they would most likely just switch out.
@@Shin_FTW I wonder, how much does the Defeatist clause impact Arena Trap and Shadow Tag?
```
Arena Trap
Traps Pokémon that can Levitate or Flying-types while it has 50% or more HP.
Shadow Tag
Traps Pokémon except Ghost-types while it has 50% or more HP.```
The fact that dugtrio has a banned ability even though its made of paper shows how powerful the ability is
My only PVP Pokémon experience comes from VGC, and I always love learning about the differences between singles and VGC. It always follows a similar train of "Why the hell would that be banned?" to "I guess that makes sense" to "Oh yeah, this would be broken if it wasn't banned, sorry for being an idiot". Thanks for another great video enlightening my ignorance.
That is amazing that diglet was viable for a brief time
Dugtrio essentially enables offensive mons to tear through balanced or bulky teams. For instance, you could have a balanced team with toxapex that checks charizard Y. Without toxapex your team can't handle charizard Y but you have toxapex there as a counter. If dugtrio removes that counter, charizard Y has a very easy time nuking your team and even if it's KOed, another offensive threat can come in and clean up.
After all why are Pokémon such as chi yu banned? Well chi yu has essentially no counters. It has spamable stab fire and dark type attacks with high base power coming off of an amazing spA and if given a scarf it can outspeed most offensive counters hence it was deemed ban worthy as it was over centralising. Mons such as charizard Y are amazing in ou for the same reasons as chi yu. It has an amazing speed stat and high base power stab moves boosted by sun but it isn't banned and why is that? Well charizard Y has more counters and can't just come in and 2HKO the entire tier. But with dugtrio it can be broken as dugtrio traps and KOs/weakens charizard Ys counters. So while offensive threats might not be broken and have counters, if these counters are taken out of the equation thanks to dugtrio, the tier becomes over centralised and it's very hard to team build.
After all you can test teams, change mons once you discover a certain weakness, IV train a Pokémon to deal with your teams weakness but what's the point of doing that if a Mon can trap, kill it and then your team can't handle the offensive threat? Sure you might say well you can just KO the check without dugtrio, but a good player won't let their counter to your offensive threat be taken out and they will preserve it knowing that your offensive threat needs to be countered. Dugtrio makes trapping and killing counters too easy.
Let's not forget that it makes volt switch/u turn even more deadly.
In gen 6-7 it got banned because arena trap was abused on stall, think on balance where usually there are only one of two wall breakers? if you get to kill one of them early thanks to being trapped then it is over since your team can't break one mon or one core in particular so stall wins by default
@Jack Walker one turn is all dugtrio needs as to take out steel types it will OHKO them a lot of the time with a banded set, dugtrio will be KO'ed by a light breeze so even arena trapping lasting a single turn won't change anything is my guess.
I absolutely love the Dugtrio mega cheese strat that is: Step 1: Wait for your opponent to send out an electric type that is faster than one of your Pokemon that will know trick with a choice item, preferably one that is bulky so it can live a hit to use trick but will hopefully bait the opponent into using an electric move. Step 2: Swap into Dugtrio. Step 3: Profit.
Actually, this was the tech. Half of a team I used.
Metagross - Clear Body
Adamant
@ Choice Scarf
EVS: 252 Atk / 4 SpAtk / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpDef
-Meteor Mash
-Zen Headbutt
-Earthquake
-Trick
Starmie - Natural Cure
Timid
@ Choice Specs
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe
IVS: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpDef
-Surf
-Ice Beam
-Psyshock
-Trick
Dugtrio - Arena Trap
Jolly
@ Air Balloon
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
-Substitute
-Hone Claws
-Stone Edge
-Earthquake
The Starmie and Metagross were fast special and physical sweepers respectively, designed to outspeed most things. But they were also made to be frail. They'd hit Mons hard normally, but were also designed outspeed an Electric or Ground type (or if I predicted an Electric / Ground move) and Trick the Specs/Scarf onto the enemy on the turn they OHKO'd my Mon with their Electric / Ground attack, so I could just immediately send in Dugtrio without giving the opponent the option to switch on the turn I'd swap in Dugtrio.
It worked pretty well in practice before I got them trained up to 100 lol - ua-cam.com/video/kIWuf6OGLLM/v-deo.html
6:28 Yo this is a scary new Kyreum-Tyranitar form, fren
what if Arena Trap and Shadow Tag were exactly like Magnet Pull? the first one works only on ground type pokemon while the latter on ghost pokemon?
Arena trap would suck except for maybe trapping clodsire. The ghost type one would be interesting given the current meta, but it would have to be on the right mon. Gothitelle would never be able to check the important ghost type mon in OU Atleast, it would just die
@@robbierotten2024 Dark dual type goth now looking more interesting
IIRC ghost types can't be trapped so shadow tag would be useless, and there's plenty of ground types that can take a hit and OHKO Dug in return in the higher tiers anyway
@@TheMightyWobb it being the only way to trap ghost-types could be an idea
Ghost Types don't get trapped either, by either ability.
I gotta say I loveeee these types of videos and I’m really excited you’ve been making more of them. I have been watching you since you were doing Let’s Go wifi battles and have been trying to get into smogon since, but I find myself having a hard time understanding the theory and the deeper strategy of the game. These videos that dive into general concepts or mechanics and arent generationally specific really helps me understand the game as a whole a lot more. It’s also just super interesting in general! Thanks for this content!!
Dugtrio is super fun, with or without AT. Sand Force is very impressive.
Definitely one of my favourite mons to use, even if its not that great
Really wish there was a platform like showdown that operated on a point buy system for team building instead of the tier system. Different total points in your team determine tier it's useable in. Operating on the same foundation as showdown that players will play to win, the mons that get used the most would get the most points.
If you run a really strong pokemon like Dracovish, you could still use it in OU if the rest of your team was RU / UU mons.
Likewise you might have a fairly staple team but maybe you swap out Garchomp for Druddigon as your defensive hazard setting dragon type to drop your teams rating a bit.
Point cost being based on the individual pokemon could even go further and factor specific combinations, so for instance running gholdengo and great tusk on the same team would increase the rating on your team since so many players do the same.
Would create a system that overall is less divisive between casual and high level play and encourages experimenting with team building.
> mons that get used the modt would get the most points
so a usage based tiering system?
I was just talking about this among friends recently, but I honestly would have preferred to see it tested in Gen9.
So many things have changed, new mons have been added that outright outspeed and or take any hit from Dugtrio, as well as tera working in the benefit of everything around it (changing to flying or ghost type now has an added benefit). I also tried using it in ubers to catch Miraidons, but any non-choice Miraidon (which apparently is ~70%) just outspeeds and knocks it out. Nearly everything in OU also doesn't care about it unless it's severely weakened outside of probably Clodsire.
I'm not saying it would end up being balanced, but I think it deserves a retest (especially given that Genesect was re added multiple times for who knows why)
Shadowtag can remain in hell though unless there are nerfs to what it traps
Thing is, when dugtrio got banned, people still used digglet and even trapinch
@@sla7889 I don't know how that matters when those were in previous metagames without tera or the newer mons/abilities.
@@ArecnaD2 that matters because, if a mon as bad as diggllet or trapinch can be op with arena trap, dugtrio wouldnt be balanced in ou even with the recent power creep because the power gap between dugtrio and the pokemon nowadays is way tinier that the one that existed between digglet and the gen 8 mons
I wonder, how much does the Defeatist clause impact Arena Trap and Shadow Tag?
```
Arena Trap
Traps Pokémon that can Levitate or Flying-types while it has 50% or more HP.
Shadow Tag
Traps Pokémon except Ghost-types while it has 50% or more HP.```
@@sla7889 You can theorymon as much as I can; my opinion stands that it's worth a retest in a generation where you can quite literally become any type to beat your counters
My brain grows more wrinkles every time you post one of these Joey. Good stuff.
Dugtrio carried me through my first few playthroughs of FireRed, for sure one of my favorite pokémon.
Switching is the main mechanic in single battles. It takes away 5 options from your opponent. That's more than half...
Games with less options become boring and predictable. Just the presence forces the opponent to NOT switch in their EQ weak mons in case of a uturn or a double.
No thanks keep it banned
My favorite gimmick strat was Entrainment Truant Durant and Arena Trap Dugtrio that had Hone Claws, Protect, Earthquake, and Stone Edge.
I love this kind of videos. Please keep 'em up!
i believe that there’s enough counterplay to arena trap in ubers, and potentially ou in the current gen.
It’s hilarious how Arena Trap can be considered a useless ability in single player content considering NPCs don’t or rarely switch Pokémon at all
God damn I miss battles on battle revolution:/
I would love to see a Battle Revolution type game the can only connect to Pokemon Home. That way, it won't be too restrictive on a single game or generation
@@Videoandme1 we think alike. A battle revolution remastered and let that be it. The ultimate sim
The funny thing is, it’s been allowed in LC for quite a while.
The Pokémon with the abilities were banned, but not the ability.
Diglett has been stellar every generation as a result.
If you want to know more about why, here’s a video on it
ua-cam.com/video/b32Be5Rj4bs/v-deo.html
Dug TRIO!
I wish Wug had Water Magnet Pull...
Water vortex, i think it is a cool name for a "water arena trap"
@@CesarMT1661 NICE!
Goated name.
Sadly It couldn’t use that cuz it can’t really hit most waters like at all
@@linkloyan4624 I mean tbf it would definitely make it better than it is when its best ability is gooey lmao
@@ZelZ-.-z thanks:)
arena trap isn't broken, there are things that enable it that are game breaking like focus sash/pivot moves. it was rich get richer situation. it didnt strain the team builder in gen 3 - it only did so once it got absurd tools to help it.
those things fundamentally changed mons to a different path of balance, thus why I much prefer generation 3, as gen 4 was where these extreme game warping items/moves were added. (focus sash, choice scarf, stealth rocks)
I dont know man, by that logic nothing is broken. As you can always pair something incredibly good with something else equally bad. Wonder Guard on a Pokemon with 1 hp for example.
Traping is so strong that even pre-evos who get it can put it to good use. If that isnt broken, idk what is.
@@walaceandrade4046 i think people overreact to having their mons trapped and dont like playing around it. getting diglet in on anything requires a free turn.
@@DkKobaADV the whole concept behind using traping is that once their wall is gone, their team crumbles thus forcing their wall to show its face and do their job. A single pivot move into the trap target switching in and its gg. And if they dont bring up their wall and you let off a powerfull hit they are now down a mon.
Its heavely favored for the traping team.
@@walaceandrade4046 I"m more concerned then that losing a wall = a loss then, sounds like a bad team
@@DkKobaADV That's what makes it centralizing. Unless you plan on only running teams with several walls, it gets traps the necessary check and wins. Even then, it can trap multiple times since walls aren't exactly offensive threats. It'll just trap and kill one wall and then trap and weaken another one.
7:38 Who out here using non contrary serp? I wanna shake their hand
I wonder if trapping abilities would be reasonably balanced if they made it so all switches on the field happened at the end of the turn? dugtrio would be able to do its thing once, but its ability would make it easy pickings for a revenge kill itself. You could maybe play some mind games with substitute protect to get switch, but otherwise dugtrio would mostly be a trade or a late game asset.
If the same arena trap immunities applied though, air balloon dugtrio would be interesting in the hands of a good player.
Back before it was banned in gen 5, I had a rain team with perish song celebi that u-turned into a protect + sash dugtrio. It earned many ragequits.
The best way to summarize this vod is "woops, dugtrio range"
I'm still curious to know if or more so how busted Raichu would be if it could hold light ball
This is a very interesting video, and I really like the animation style. It’s been so cool to see your content grow over the past decade I’ve been subbed :]
I wonder how good Alolan Dugtrio would be if it got at least magnet pull?
35 HP
55 DEF
70 SPDEF
"Detrimental" to gen 9's health when entry hazards are EVERYWHERE and so focus sash means nothing, and YOU DIDN'T mention all the powerful and plentiful ghost types this gen completely ignoring abilties arena trap..
I just stated why it was quickbanned not my personal opinion on it or how it would be this gen. Tons of good ghosts ye
I personally feel dugtrio was good for the gen 5 metagame. it was one of the few things that could threated tar and toed and made sun, and stall viable. Basically, does the same thing it did in gen 3
the reason why ttar is good in gen5 is bcz it prevents teams from falling apart against the psychics tho
i think u could talk about how weather boosting speed affected the metagame on ou at the point of bein banned
3:55 incredibly Kecleon name
Arena trap being on an absolute speed demon of a Pokémon made it that much more overwhelming imo
Nice video!
Wait so what does singles ladder play look like? Does Dugtrio actually run ish
It's amazing how overpowered floor shit really is.
Isn't the real problem choice items limiting item diversity? Like there is shed skin available and other items that allow better counter play, but are not playable because they are weaker than choice items.
Dugtrio is just what are we sacrificing to handle it during team building
So whats under dugtrio
I truly miss the gen 6 Dugtrio + M Sabley tho ...
The best revenge killer ability
How restrictive was diglett actually?
Truant Durant + dugtrio barrier hone claws with arena trap was pretty disgusting I use that on my friends to have a good laugh.
Are you a part of the FSG channel? I only ask because you mentioned BKC was ur homie and this videos script would of fit perfectly on a vid over there lol
Nah, kellen and bkc are my friends tho
i miss dugtrio on stall
Dugtrio? You mean the Pokémon if you hit it with water gun it dies?
You wouldn't be switching Dugtrio on an attack that's what U turn is for
So does deoxys speed,lol
Couldn't arena trap be fixed by putting in a 1 turn delay?
You can still trap, but then you'd have to sucessfully predict when your opponent switches and switch at the same time to actually get the ability off. Instead of a reactionary quite riskless countermeasure.
This video perfectly encapsulates why I don't play competitive pokemon you'll ban everything that's good. Dominating an opponent in a pokemon battle is actually really satisfying. But when you ban good pokemon or good abilities or items it just takes away the fun. That means you can only use the same c***** few pokemon A team
Its just 1 pokemon basically tho and with proper knowledge and skill you could double switch a trace porygon2 and wreck it even set up on it with evolite recover calm mind
Thing is, it isn't just 1 Pokémon though. As the video said people were using diglett to do exactly what duggy did. Also saying porygon 2 makes arena trap balanced isn't a good reason because not every team should be forced to run porygon 2 to avoid having dug trap their other mons
"If you hard read the opponent with a specific Pokemon, then it isn't that good."
No.
yeah and should we allow spectrier in ou because a focus sash dragapult can come in and kill it with sucker punch
Ay shouts out to Thugtrio, much love to you and Haydunn
Why is area trap banned but not shadow tag chandelure, gothatelle or mega gengar?
where are they unbanned?
They're banned from OU too lol
No is speed dugtrio no swyper why
Funny enough though due to tiers being locked. dugtrio wirh arena trap is still allowed in gen 4 UU
Ghost types are also inmmune to traping but eh it slide becose honestly generic traping abilities are stupid
Why is arena trap allowed in LC?
nowdays with paradox mons that are so fucking fast Dugtrio would just be amazing in OU or even pretty good in Ubers, why does he have to stay in the garbage?
Frail and Grass types from Gen 8 and 9 are really buffed so it's very easily countered to say the least, and half of the meta are flying, others are levitating, others use Air Baloon and others can use Magnet Rise so it can't Trapquake opponents easily. Unless it gets a signature move like Wugtrio but at some point mechanics at Ground typing should change, EQ shouldn't hit flying targets but moves like Mud Shot which is spitting Mud to your opponent should hit. So it shouldn't be banned at all. Gothitelle is far better at trapping pokemon and way bulkier and with very extended moveset. And yeah with Dugtrio it's play also is very restrictive, Choice Band, or maybe gimmicky Focus Sash with Reversal, Swords Dance, Sucker Punch etc but still it's not that easy to put Dugtrio into play cause of it's frailty to get hit by a move.
How GREAT was Arena Trap ACTUALLY?
me day one of gen 10: dugrio-trapinch-digglet core until it gets banned
I think dugtrio is a good mole Pokémon I like his red noses, he should be the mascot for comic relief. As for arena trap I love the feeling of stopping my opponent from switching, to have that power over them feels exhilarating. However when it happens to me, I want to go to my car, open the bonnet, stick my head in, and smash it repeatedly until I lose the brain function required to comprehend what had happened to me in pokemon.
arena trap offers the possibility to simply take out a thread unless it has momentum, doesn't touch the ground or is a ghost type. So it's not completely busted
Currently, Tera is also allowed in the meta, which can achieve the exact same thing, even easier
you have to bait your opponent but it often works well. That's why I don't understand why arena trap has such a problem, but it doesn't bother some that the opponent can change into an unpredictable type?
If only wugtrio has some special trapping ability
Arena trap is in UU Gen 4 tho?
Ye some ou and uus have dif rules. But it us illegal in gen 4 OU
Banning arena trap and not stealth rock costs any respect I might give for arguments about what's impactful to meta.
I feel are arena trap shouldn’t be banned. Maybe it’s me wanting chaos or abilities to be used to make Pokémon good as a whole bit dugtrio though is frail though I feel that is overlooked at least to me
Imagine if Dugtrio got Parting Shot!
Bro I literally searched for this earlier today
There's ways to play around it, but it still needs a minor nerf imo
Its wild watching this knowing how bad Dugtrio is in VGC
I hate team preview personally. I don't want to know what my opponent is running. It takes away the surprise factor. Also, arena trap shouldn't be banned.
I think it’s worse in gen 9 because Tera flying
Even then being forced to use your Tera is a good way to make progress as now your opponent still has theirs that they can use anytime during the match. Also it has the benefit of making certain mons weaker to things it would normally check. Say you Tera flying your clodsire to not get killed. Well now your clodsire can’t wall things like iron valiant as easily since it lost its fairy resist
Nah it's better. Duggy can use Tera to trap whatever it wants, just check gen9 lc
And a lot of good ghost, they dont give a shiet about trapping, heck, insted just tera ghost and switch
Still super funny to me that a Pokémon that looks like that can do what it does.
Arena trap should 100% stay banned
great video jolten is similar jolten can revenge kill anything but always uses substitute and then decides if it wants to secure the kill or can baton pass the sub if the opponent decides to preserve weekend Pokemon with a switch. and then the best part is a strong thunderbolt is hardly resisted and is immuned by ground so they almost always switch in a ground and EQ. meaning if you sub+baton to a Gyarados you get a free win.
Jolteon is in no way similar to Dugtrio lol. Dugtrio literally traps the pokemon and murders it with x2 or x4 EQ. Jolteon in comparison does nothing close to forcing that much progress consistently.
jolteon isnt nearly as forcing as arena trap huh
Ghost type supremacy
Who would win?
A monster worshipped in legends as one of the fundamental forces of nature?
Or three smol mole bois
Funny to see trapping is strong in smogon singles but pretty weak in draft.
arena trap always gets one of my mons ded in fire red nuzlocke digletts cave...
Diglet the goat
Still waiting for a Pokemon that has Arena Trap as its ONLY Ability. Effectively banning the Pokemon as a whole.
dugtrio has only sand veil and arena trap io gen 4, not sure if evasion abilities are banned in gen 4 but if they are then it would be fully banned there.
In gen 3 that happend with cacturne and sandlash
Man kinda disappointed people hate this so much its literally hurting Dugtrio so badly. Like its just trash like why ban its SIGNATURE ability that defines it to the max as if you are using it in ou without it in the first place. Alolan dugtrio is better in lower tiers for crying out fucking loud
I think these videos would be better if you used key words to remind you of the topic and spoke about it naturally. that way it doenst sound like youre reading off a script
Could simply be limited to one trap ko per battle (I'm talking about the ability's code itself). But gamefreak is too pathetic to make balanced stuff.
Why would they? While the games have always allowed for player versus player battles the games are clearly built around a single player campaign. As such competitive was always an after thought. And that's assuming it was thought about at all.
Day 2 of asking aim to use the pig in PU
Trio Trio Trio!
This is why I keep saying they need to allow Run Away to let the pokemon always switch out regardless of abilities like Arena Trap and Shadow Tag or moves like Wrap and Fire Spin.
I'd just ban all Legendary Pokemon (All of them)
I wonder, how much does the Defeatist clause impact Arena Trap and Shadow Tag?
```
Arena Trap
Traps Pokémon that can Levitate or Flying-types while it has 50% or more HP.
Shadow Tag
Traps Pokémon except Ghost-types while it has 50% or more HP.```