Brushing inside necks when reloading and testing with AMP Press and target
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
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You peaked my interest. I would be interested in seeing a before and after picture of the inside of the neck. I plan to test your idea as well. 👍🏻
I brush the necks with a bronze brush on a drill just before seating the bullet. for me it's better than any kind of lubrication (graphite, moly) because lubricants dont remove scratches..Each time you shoot or run an expander it leaves vertical scratches. Running the bronze brush on a drill polishes the necks in a perpendicular way. Look with a magnifier to compare and you'll understand.why it's smoother.
Try to unseat those. They will be fused.
I brush all my brass. Bronze brush in drill press. Move brass up and down a few times with drill running. Easy seating and great groups for me.
I brush this inside of the necks with a bronze brush on a battery drill and then before I put the powder in I use a cotton bud to wipe graphite around the inside then do powder then seat the pills and have noticed a dramatic difference in seating pressure kind you I only use a standard KM Arbor press big can definitely feel the difference, looking forward to your findings during a match 🤙🏻
An interesting alternative exists here if you are shooting 6 mm. Mcmaster-Carr has small cylinder hones in various grits. Their .250" hone (4424A502 for 350 grit) fits nicely in a 6mm cartridge neck.
I'd like to show a test of Un-seating the bullets. I brushed one using a copper brush and I thought I was going to break my press trying to remove the bullet. It went in easy but not out. Nylon vs Copper vs just a mandrel would be interesting to me.
I’ve been doing this for a couple loadings, seems to be helping with seating force. Although I don’t have an amp, I’ve been just going off of hand feel. I also use neo lube as well.
Gerry Tierney did a lot of testing in Sacramento with Palma guns. I remember a post he made on Accurate Shooter that showed that brushing necks made a difference in the loads he tested.
I’ve been thinking about doing this for awhile. I look forward to seeing the results of your next match!
Variant of this idea I would like to see AMP data for: try adding a small pinch of 0000 steel wool to the nylon brush. (Tip recommended to me per personal communication with top bullet manufacturer) just touch it to spinning brush… it will wind in nicely. It seems to really help…
Can't argue with those results, even though it's only 10. Looks promising. Thanks for sharing!
Wheeler talked about brushing with nylon a while back on a forum. Made a difference.
Thank you for trying this and publishing your results. I'll need to try brushing necks for my short range benchrest game.
Very interesting results! I look forward to seeing how this works out for you
I'd be curious to see data on a 3rd method....brushed and then lubed (either necks or bullet bases). My theory is removing the carbon increased friction. I wet tumble because I use a collet neck die and don't want to run dirty necks over it, (and it cleans pockets well) so I've been dipping the bullet bases in Redding dry neck lube before seating because my ammo sometimes sets for weeks before shooting. Have not yet tried the neo lube or whatever it is that Keith uses and I don't have the amp press to confirm anything. I can feel a difference though, ESPECIALLY when pulling bullets weeks later. Much less force required so....has to be something to it imho. Just a casual shooter btw. Only compete with myself. Ha ha. I learn a lot from you and a few others though. Thank you for sharing your time and experience John.
I'm sure it could work but I don't and won't lube my bullets. Just not my thing anymore.
I’ve been doing the same thing before seating, coating the necks with Redding dry neck lube. I haven’t came to a conclusion on the findings yet but it definitely helps create a smooth seat and cuts total runout down significantly.
Very interesting 🤔.
Interesting.
I am really looking forward to future testing/verification.
Me too!
The copper brush gets more carbon off then the plastic . i think for more consistency.
Please post a follow up video as you gather a larger sample size.
now that shows some promise, keep us posted
Will do...
I like it.
I’d like more videos on this. Pretty interesting. Thanks
How much brushing actually occured? Or, how much crud did you remove! Did you see brass? Here is a thought....by brushing, you removed material after you sized, so there maybe less overall compression on the bullet???? Can you measure the difference?
Very interesting F-Class John . I wonder if Eric Cortina brushes his case necks? I’m hoping you can ask other F-Class shooters if they brush the inside of their case necks or use fine steel wool or some other process.
Interesting, I have always brushed with a nylon brush using my RCBS Case Prep after debur and champering. I would like to see if you get similar results between the Henderson and hand brushing. Thanks very much John. Very interesting.
I've tested hand brushing with all kinds of brushes in the past and never saw much improvement or at least enough to make it worth the time.
@@FClassJohn Well got me thinking now, will have to run some of my own tests to see what I am really getting. Been pretty happy with my results on the range, but always room for improvement.
I'm curious, did you shoot all brushed first or did you round-robin it? i.e. 4 shots brushed, 4 shots un-brushed.
Also, some of the top benchrest shooters wrap 0000 steel wool around their brush.
Interestin and look forward to seeing how things work out.
Slightly off subject, have you tried or considered double annealing? After watching AMP video from 2 weeks ago on "Will annealing twice damage brass?" it seems based on his testing to be an important step towards consistency. annealing before brass prep and again after makes sense, or maybe not?
I haven't seen the referenced video, however, AMP did a video and study explaining how the end Vicker's hardness level of the brass is directly proportional to the temp/time relationship applied, which the amp is designed to apply consistently. In other words, the end hardness level should not change whether your cycling once or ten times with the amp. (Energy in = Energy Out situation). I'm not saying there would always be a 0% change each cycle, only that the results should be "in the noise" of the AMP's sensor accuracy.
Never mind my nerding out on this but can't sleep and this has been on my mind. TLDR at bottom of this youtube comment turned essay.
To keep this high-level, we can ignore crystaline structure and molecule growth, The brass only cares about the total energy transferred (via inductive heating). In an ideal scenario, this energy would not change after each annealing cycle - this means no change to the brass properties.
A watered down analogy would be dropping a basketball from 10ft and measuring the resulting bounce height, (let's say 5ft). In an ideal world, the resulting bounce height wouldn't deviate from 5ft because the same amount of potential energy is being converted into kenetic energy.
The brass will behave similarly in that the output (hardness) will not change unless the amount of energy (heat/time) is changed.
AMP might be using something fancy to track temperature, though, the easiest way would be using thermocouples, which are cheap, fast enough to track the heat change, and can get you within a +/- a few degrees C. There's likely enough inherent error to expect minor variations with each cycle. Yet, Applied Balistics' study on annealing efficacy is pretty eye opening and shows a lower correlation to shots-on-target consistency than one might expect with how often annealing comes up in reloading.(Source: Applied Balistics, Modern Advancements in Reloading Vol II).
The TLDR to all this being: 1) Annealing is a forgiving process with good or turned brass, 2) You cannot further anneal brass unless you increase the amount of energy imparted to the brass from the initial cycle (remember, no phase change for annealing), 3) AMP's annealer will have some level of variation between cycles, 4) Unless you're Jack Neary, no chance this variation is statistically significant to shots-on-target...variables such as neck uniformity, seating depth, etc, etc, will mask any results multiple annealing cycles could positively, or I'd argue equally as likely, negatively, influence your reload consistency.
If there's someone shooting better groups with 2 or 3 anneal cycles, this is more likely a symptom of another problem within their process, and I'd be cautious about following suit until the numbers support. ....Anyway, let's try that sleep thing again.
Use an Iosso blue brush, Done.
I quit brushing years ago.
It's been a couple years now, and I wanted to check back in with you to see if you're still doing this with the nylon brush installed? It would be awesome if Henderson could develop a brush insert that acts as a pilot to have the best of both worlds. Maybe drill and tap the center of the pilot to hold the brush and then you have both. Has it helped with consistently?
Yeah it's actually something I still do and I'm still doing it the same way. A friend did make me a tapped pilot and it works but I don't use it because the brushes I'm currently using aren't threaded but I'll probably with over to IOSSO brushes and start using it.
@@FClassJohn Now that tapped pilot sounds promising. It's one more operation that can be added to the Henderson trimmer. Maybe your friend could do a bunch of them and sell them as a modification to the Henderson trimmer.
Sorry I’m a very novice reloader but, what do you mean when you say brushed? Is this something I should be doing if I’m not?
Brushing the inside of the case necks to remove the build up of carbon .
Have you ever thought about nickel plating the necks? You would have to do it after every firing but it would make the friction more consistent.
Think about how piston rings work in an engine and the cylinder wall. An engine builder would never use chrome rings in a chrome cylinder. One or the other must be more permeable than the other on a microscopic level. The reason is, one side or the other needs to hold lubrication. In a cast iron cylinder, chrome moly rings are used because the cast in the cylinder is microscopically more porous allowing it to hold lubrication. So, the chrome moly rings actually slide up and down on the lubrication, not the cylinder wall. And in a nikasil cylinder, iron rings are used because they are more porous and hold lubrication. They also slide up and down on the lubrication, not the cylinder wall. The same applies to bullet seating to some extent. Because the bullets are basically polished, they do not hold lubrication well. The brass is not polished, so it would hold lubrication well. Never would two highly polished surfaces, that would not hold lubrication be a good idea in the mechanical world where pressure is applied against two opposing surfaces that are designed to move. A bullet riding against a consistant lubricated surface would give the most consistant results and the least resistance to movement. Finding that perfect lube is one of the places that AMP Press would shine.
😂
Good lord
Brushing seems to partially remove the combustion products from the neck. What about wet cleaning your brass. This removes all of the residue. Seems like this would improve neck tension and seating pressures by making the actual brass dimensions more consistent (remove the variable thickness of the residue in the neck from the sizing process).
Oddly enough well that is all true I’m going back to not brushing because after more testing which I will show in another video I was getting worse result again. Historically every time I test this my non-brushing shoots better at Long range than doing the neck brushing. Everybody’s results will vary of course but for me personally that’s what seems to happen.
just watching this on brushing and on the graphs from amp press. curious about the graph. looking at it, the lower half (looks like an m) isn't that the complete loading of the bullet? after the m, the ramp in the graph is the amp press at the wall building up to it's shutoff? thinking about hand using my arbor press, once the bullet is seated the handle just stops...but the graphs show a slow ramp...not a dead stop. i also bet the motor that drives the amp press is on a variable drive...if it is, the slow ramp is exactly what it would show driving into a wall...brushing shoots better because it cleans the neck smooth on copper fouling. the graph looks worse because cleaning with a brush is going to be different, case to case, therefore the carbon fowling (which acts like lubrication) is also now different. just spit balling here, what do you think?
Great video! Thank you! Which radar are you using?
I'm beta testing a new one out of the Czech Republic. It's called the AndiScan2.0
@@FClassJohn can’t wait for the commercial version. Please keep us updated
Say u accidentally get 2 cases mixed up and they are one firing off .. say one is 2x fired and another is 3x fired .. (annealing everytime). Will thier b that much difference n down range performance?
Honestly probably not.
Hey do you wet tumble after brushing? I did with ss media and got some great 5 shot groups in 6.5 cm...0.18 inch at 100 using bipod and rear bag and non Henderson station brush but a hornady station brush
I dry tumble. The brushing in the video was literally the last thing I did before loading.
Wet tumbling AFTER brushing would not only be a bad idea but would make your neck consistency us less unless you are going to run them back through an expander mandrel. Wet tumbling with stainless steel media peens the case mouths and will kae for some rough seating if that is your last step. Wet tumbling if you choose to do that should be fist step right after popping primers
@@jameskozlowski5496 I totally agree with you.
Rattlesnake is in my backyard do you live around here?
I wonder if the faster rpm's resulted in a more uniform "brushing" than the hand drill and other power sources????
Maybe. I had sworn off any kind of brushing because I never really saw a difference but this has me reconsidering it.
When exactly in your loading process are you brushing
I'm doing it at the very end. Trimming/Chamfer/Brushing is last step before I start loading.
Was brushing done before or after the expander mandrel?
After
@@FClassJohn is it possible the brushing changed the neck tension ever so slightly? You set neck tension with a dirty neck, then clean the dirt and carbon out, that leads me to think neck tension would be a little more loose. You could test by running running a .0005 larger expander in the non brushed brass and uses current bushing for brass that will be brushed and see if the groups confirm.
Did you shoot them in a round robin fashion or all 10 for each at one time?
I honestly don't remember but I rarely shoot round robin so I probably didn't do it that way.
I'm curious about brushing the necks. What exactly is the brush doing to the necks? Spreading lube? Smoothing the inside of the neck?
I've tried brushing and saw no discernible differences. That is probably because I don't have a custom rifle.
Brushing the inside of the case necks to remove the build up of carbon.
@@conservativesniperhunter7439 thanks for the reply. Since I wet tumble, there isn't any carbon left to remove.
I have tried lubing with graphite. Bullet insertion pressure is reduced a bit, but results on target shows no difference. YM MV.
@@dmalcolm24 if wet tumbling removes all carbon build up in the case necks you’re laughing. I have a Hornady Sonic cleaner that removes most of the carbon but not all of it . I think I’ll try brushing the necks before tossing the cases in the Sonic cleaner in the hope that this might get all of the carbon out . Cheers 🍻
@@conservativesniperhunter7439 I'm probably excessive in my brass cleaning. I wet tumble with steel pins and Brass Juice. After rinsing and dry and annealing, I lube and size and then dry tumble to remove the case lube. Probably the case lube is not completely removed but I'm relatively happy with seating pressures.
I tried an RCBS sonic cleaner and was not happy with it. A friend had the Hornady Sonic cleaner and it did a fairly good job, but not as good as wet tumbling.
I have enough brass to sustain me for most of a year, so when it's time I get it all done. It's a PITA and not the part of reloading I like. When I'm finished, I have several months worth of brass primed and ready to load.
Be safe and have fun.
I’m sure it’s in a video of yours somewhere so I apologize for asking, but do you use corn/walnut media to clean cases? Or do you wet tumble or use an ultrasonic cleaner?
Dry tumble , that’s what I have seen in his videos
Have you tried this test with pwdr graphite or Neolube2?
I have't used a neck lube for probably 7 years now.
Did it occur to anyone that top line of groups were simply a result of better recoil management and technique? Were all groups shot without breaking the position?
He did mention a small sample test group. This is important. The ag of 100 + rounds would be more definitive!
What type of brush would you recommend: brass, copper, nylon, etc?
I've tried brass and nylon and they both seem to do a good job and pretty close to each other. Best thing is to test them and see what gets your load the best results.
Did you do any more testing with this? Are you still doing it this way or did the results not stand the test of time?
Yeah, I’ve done more testing since and I’ve been brushing inside my necks since this video and still continue to. I do think no matter how you do it there is value in brushing inside the necks.
john, are you still doing this? i was very tempted to do the same thing with my henderson v3 but my pilot has saved me a few times when a piece was inserted slightly off kilter. what brushes are you using? what all did you actually do to make it work?
Honestly, I’m still going back-and-forth on this process trying to narrow down whether it’s worth the effort or not. I currently am using the pilot but do switch back for different testing with the brush. The pilot definitely makes things easier and probably a little more consistent compared to the brush so I wouldn’t really recommend the brush unless you’re in the mood to do some testing.
@@FClassJohn I’m all about making brass prep as simple as possible. Maybe with a short bristled brush it would have more rigidity and act closer to a mandrel but I’m not sure would clean the neck as consistently due to lower brush count. Hmmmm. The target looks great but the amp press data is concerning. Makes me wonder if it would have different results with different brand brushes.
@@TrevorCazes Yeah I totally agree and that's why I'm still on the fence. For most of the year I honestly don't do anything inside the necks (and I dry tumble so the carbon is mostly in there). There's an endless set of paths we can go down with reloading and I'm always testing with the goal of reducing or eliminating as many steps as possible to simplify things without loss of quality.
@@FClassJohn couldn’t have said it better myself. I completely agree
Hello, It's been 10 months now. Are you still doing this to your brass or have you moved on to something else now?
Yep I'm still doing this every time. It seems to work well and I have no complaints.
@@FClassJohn Really? That sounds promising. I know you said you've tried this sort of thing in the past, however I'm super curious as to WHY it seems to work well now, but it didn't in the past when you tried other similar methods. I wonder if the tightness of the brush has an effect, or the speed of the spinning brush. I know the Henderson has a higher RPM than most cordless drills. Did you add a polishing compound to the brush or something?