This is as close as it comes to a perfect tutorial, given by a very articulate man who absolutely knows what he's talking about. This video has taught me so much about the railway watch in less than 20 minutes not a single second wasted. (excuse the pun on minutes and seconds.)
THANK YOU so much. My grandfather was a machinist for the Rock Island line for about 30 years and I recently acquired many of the family passes which allowed for free or greatly reduced family travel, so I’ve become interested in many things related to the old railway system.
I picked a good time to fall down the pocket watch rabbit hole. This video needs to blow up, but then again, maybe I want this part of the watch hobby to remain affordable.
Thank you for your kind words! Watches are really fun, and unlike clocks, a bit easier to store and transport. :) I love that watches were treasured by their owners, and the large financial investment required to acquire one meant that they were repaired and used for decades. I wrote an article on my website showing my great grandfather's railroad watch (he wasn't a railroader but appreciated a fine timepiece). It has a lot of wear, but that shows how important it was to him. Best of luck as you build your collection. minnesotawatches.com/emotional-attachment-a-personal-story/
This was absolutely fascinating and I thank-you for sharing your in-depth knowledge. I just started collecting pocket watches and this has further peaked my interest. I hope you continue to make these videos perhaps in other genres of the pocket watch world.
Thank you so much for this Sir! As an Aussie with a lifelong love of American railroads, I've finally got my first Hamilton 992! I also have a Ball 135 anniversary Trainmaster , and trying to find out info on Ball leads you down a path of some confusion! You have cleared this up and I now understand why Ball and Hamilton watches are so similar. My next purchase will be a Ball labeled Hamilton....if I can find one in good condition. Cheers Gregg.
I was really worried as to why my recently purchased elgin watch didn't have a crown capable of adjusting the hands. It took your thorough explanation for me to realize it uses a lever. Honestly that's a lot cooler, and thanks for this load of info
Well done! Normally I get my horological jollies on marine chronometers, but this has truly opened my eyes! Railroad is my next watch purchase, no doubt!
Good info for those curious and wanting to learn. Don’t think you mentioned that a “true Montgomery Dial” must have the numeral 6 at the 6 o’clock position on the dial. There are similar looking “numerical index style dials”, but those do not include the numeral “6”.
There's a 50/50 chance I may be wrong on this but I believe those were Canadian RR Grade watches with a different Montgomery dial with the '6' at the 6 o'clock. Now I gotta go page thru my books....
In conductor training for the CSX in 1998, I recall they had no criteria for a "railroad watch." They told us there was standard RR time, and it was the train crew's responsibility to adhere to it. I believe you could check the time via radio. I was in freight service, so time was only critical if you had a track warrant valid between certain times. When you accessed the company computer, for example to clock in and out, the computer put the time in for us.
Very interesting and instructive video. That's an incredible watch collection you have in that box. 30 seconds per week is amazing accuracy. That's better than most mechanical watches today.
This was great! I have a Waltham 23 jewel RR watch with a small dial that tells how wound the watch is. I thought you had to move the hands manually to set it. Knowing that it is lever set, which mine has, was a real shock!
I also have a Waltham 23 jewel RR watch I can not find anything about it. I was my grandfather’s I want to know it’s history. Could you shed some light on this watch?
I went to watch repair school from 1997 to 1999 5 days a week Where I learned how to service Pocket watches and wrist watches ! I later used my skills doing a volunteer gig at the Henry Ford museum in Dearborn Michigan identifying his "Actual Watch Collection. for transfer to a computer Database! AmericanPocket watches are so beautifull!😊
Really Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I just picked up a waltham 1903 at a junk store for $20 and I also have my great grandfather's Hampden key wind watch from 1873.
My gosh the amount of information in this video saved me hours of research. Thank you so much sir. I never knew Webb Ball profited himself using his position like that, thats very very controversial.
This is a fascinating and informative video, many thanks. I have "discovered" American RR grade watches recently and have acquired a few, and this video revealed much new information to me. I envy your lovely collection. I will now subscribe and look at some of your other videos.
Great video!! Beautiful collection too by the way. Your Veritas is pristine. Loved the 1892, 23j, Vanguard. Looked like it had diamond end stones. One related topic you might consider covering are the "Railroad Approved" watches. Those, in my opinion and based on their selling prices, are the "top tier" watches. Not necessarily because they are better made than "railroad grade" watches but because only the ones specified, such as the B.W. Raymond, or the 992/6's, etc., are the only ones that can correctly be called "Railroad Approved" and therefore more desirable. As I'm sure you're aware that the list also specifies the "B.W. Raymond" wrist watch, Ball "Trainmaster", as well as the Bulova Accutron "railroad approved" wrist watches as "railroad approved" . I've owned and serviced literally hundreds of pocket watches over the last 20 years. Always amazed at the level of finishing on the movements. The decorations rival the high-end Swiss wrist watch makers. Such a shame that only watchmakers are lucky enough to be able to enjoy them.
Thanks for the kind words and the suggestion. Yes - a number of wrist watches were officially approved later on as well, and I agree - American watchmaking from about 1880-1960 was the best in the world. I don't think you need to be a watchmaker to enjoy a fine movement though - with care in a clean room watches can be opened for occasional viewing, but even closed up, watches can still be enjoyed knowing you have a great piece of mechanical art and craftsmanship.
Really great video, I have a small collection of railway watches, and Elgin military ones from the Second World War, including a 24 hour dial, navigators watch unusually by Elgin, not Hamilton, learn more from you than a number of books I have read, well done!
Thank you - that's very kind. I have found that sometimes watch and clock books overshoot with their knowledge - presenting really obscure details is interesting, but sometimes the big picture isn't communicated at all or very well.
Thanks for all the info and time control as the first way to tell where a train on schedule would be. I still think there is a place for pocket watches. The simple open face appeals to me. I am buying one just to velcro to my car for accurate time. it will be s quartz watch for more accuracy in all situations.
Very nice video. You should do more pocket watch videos. I would be interested in how you clean your cases. I found your explanation very informative, I usually just look at pocketwatchdatabase for information, I think I will take the age into consideration in future. My Hamilton 978 looks better after this video.
Very informative video . I used it to purchase my illinois 1918 meets all requirements. I'LL have to check the 30' per week though. I'm curious why so many watches say railroad grade that don't meet these requirements. Even on Data base it may say RR grade.
Hi James - thanks for your comment and the kind words. The 30 seconds per week requirement requires regular maintenance to achieve. Your railroad-grade watch would have left the factory exceeding that level of performance, but if your watch has not been maintained, being out of spec is not a surprise. The most important - and first - regulation of what defines a watch suitable for use on a railroad is that it gets regular maintenance, otherwise it won’t keep time. This could be as simple as the watch needing to be demagnetized, regulated, and/or (and very likely unless this has been done in your time as owner of a watch) fully disassembled, cleaned, and serviced. At this point in history, most of us declare a watch that was originally railroad-grade to still be a railroad-grade watch, no matter its current running condition.
I love buying these watches - they are amazing given the timeframe in which they were created and manufactured. Just think - quality-wise - they are as good as high end chronometers of today (in my opinion) for a small fraction of the price....I've always thought they were undervalued...
Hey friend how are you doing, I always wanted to buy a sterling silver pocket watch but saving for retirement always gotten away, but today I picked up a 1942 Hamilton 917 in 14 karat gold fill. It is in excellent condition I mean for 80 years old it doesn’t look more than a year old. It tells perfect time, I picked it up for a little on the $200 on the street thinking I really scored because I seen the railroad watch in 14 karat gold filled went for well over $1000 in some cases just to find out that my watch maxes out at $400. It came with the original chain to so I don’t mean to sound like a spoiled child but I didn’t score of the way I think I did but I still didn’t lose it’s such a beautiful Little watch anyway I thought I’d share
Hey, if the watch is worth $400 and you got it for $200 then it's a good deal. I sell watches and I always tell friends "what you don't sell isn't an investment". If you don't plan to get rid of a watch then just get what you like and can afford in the future. Just in case you aren't aware sliver does tarnish and pit fairly easily. Watch out for that when you do find the watch you like.
@@pianofry1138 The watch is smooth, and runs so beautiful I’m going to definitely keep it. I understand from your point of you it would be an investment.
Inherited a 1913 Hamilton 940 grade railroad watch and a 1908 model Waltham 10k gold filled railroad watch from my grandfather who passed three years ago. Just found out yesterday how valuable and sought after they are.
Fascinating Video and nicely presented. I want to start acquiring these vintage pieces. Which brands would you say to look at and how should I start? Thanks
Greetings from Dakota Co. MN! Well done, my friend. Easy to follow along. Ball was brilliant in that he was a shrewd business man and salesman and knew he had a hit with his requirements that made him super rich and put his name in the horology history books. Fine collection btw and where did you get that case? I need one!
Thanks Machinist Mike! You should join us in the Minnesota chapter of the NAWCC and/or the Minnesota Horological Society. You can find information about local groups on my website minnesotawatches.com. The watch case is a handmade special. The foam is archival grade that doesn't corrode the watches and doesn't deteriorate to dust. The box is a woodworking project. I don't know that too many people would be willing to pay what they cost to make, but I occasionally cut the foam for people to refurbish existing cases. If I can find a reasonably priced mass-produced box to put the custom foam in, I may offer some for sale someday.
@@MinnesotaClocksandWatches I've been meaning to join up and and on the nat'l level too just haven't gotten around to it yet. Sent a few emails back and forth. So many projects...
Accurate time meant life or death. There were heavy fines for letting your watch run down causing it to have to be reset. Conductors were not allowed to set their watches on their own.
Can you tell us more about the first watch, the Elgin with the locomotive engraving/stamping, also shown at 13:30? Where did you find that, and what is the story behind it?
This is an Elgin 336, a bit of an odd watch as it dates to about 1920 - long after 16-size watches were available, and is pendant set. This would probably not have been accepted for railroad use other than on maybe a very small railroad. I suspect it was probably purchased by someone who liked traditional-sized watches but wanted the convenience of not having to disassemble the watch to set the time. It is a 17-jewel watch, so was a reasonably nice piece. I don't have a personal history on this of any consequence - it came from Central Minnesota, picked up on my travels once upon a time.
@@MinnesotaClocksandWatchesBeauty! I have the same watch. I thought the stamping was just really worn out, but I guess that is how they look. Mine still holds time, and is in pretty good shape. It was handed down through my family but I don't remember the story behind it. The thing weighs a ton, for a watch.
Yup leave it to the French to make a better watch . The Vanguard by Waltham great watch I am about finished with a custom Vanguard I made . So did I get it right anything before 1896 was a railway watch ? I think Appleton and Tracy started putting one together way back in the Nashau room . I found a very old watch with 15 jewels in it made before 1870 .
Probably a better way to think about it is that prior to 1887, nothing was a 'railroad watch'; everything was just a watch. There were very nice timepieces made going back a long way; my argument in this video is what makes a railroad watch is less about particular watch technology, but rather a program of scheduled maintenance combined with having a watch on the leading edge of technology of the era. The requirements of a railroad watch were ultimately determined by the executive management of each railroad. I tell the story of one of the most important and influential railway time inspectors; I have no doubt there were other railroads that had less-rigorous standards, and possibly a few that were even more selective.
Yes - you are correct. I don't have a specific date when that was mandated, but I believe it was pretty early on. I did call out the Montgomery dial which was a common requirement near the end of the pocket watch era and took the quantity of Arabic numbers on the dial to another level with every minute written out.
of the hamilton or any brand, is there any certain year range where they were making their best watches? Are there pocket watches made in our time that are better than the old railroad watches?
Uhhh so I got a railroad watch from my grandpa I have no idea how to open it so I could possibly fix it cuz it just NOTHING WORKS I TRIED EVERYTHING MAN
If you are interested in getting started repairing watches, I suggest you invest some time understanding what's involved. There are a number of good watch repair UA-cam channels that will give you a good idea what you're up against. I would not recommend using an heirloom as your first attempt at repair - find something of low monetary and sentimental value to start with.
I have read where temperature compensated RR timepieces used an escapement spring of special alloy that would regulate the escapement ( amplitude ? ) to zero out time errors so can anyone comment on this ?
Hamilton was a pioneer in many things horological; a significant example being their development of the elinvar alloy used in mainsprings. I don't recall off the top of my head the year that was introduced, but I believe it was in the 1920's or very early 1930's (e.g. the Hamilton 992E). This, in combination with the split balance wheel were important parts of a watch's ability to keep time in varying environments. Generally speaking, railroad watches used the latest in watchmaking technology; as time went on, those improvements trickled down to lesser timepieces. Today, an Asian-made mechanical watch movement that you can purchase for $25 has all the latest watch tech that 100 years ago would have cost the equivalent of a couple thousand dollars.
The Biggest problem that I've found with collecting pocket watches is some Fool has messed with the balance wheel. Once this has been done to a watch it is impossible for the watch to keep time even if it is a railroad watch. It is expencive to rebalance the balance wheel.
What is a "Railroad" watch? 1) An Accurate mechanical pocket watch that when properly maintained/serviced and regulated, puts the most accurate mechanical watch (and some digital's) made today to shame (using organic lubes; modern synthetic lubes were yet to be invented) ... in 5 or 6 positions - not just one. Later Railroad watches (post 1899) were also required to be temperature compensated. 2) Rugged, even without "shock proof" chrystals. 3) Expensive when new. Moreso today, 100 plus years later. 4) Has a special dial. (Arabic numerals in Black. Post 1895 all 60 of the minute markings had to be numbered, in black, with the 5 minute intervals in Red.) 5) The time is NOT set by lifting the crown. (Making accidental time changes impossible.) 6) Depending on when made, could be key wind and set, or stem wind. 7) Depending on when made, 15; 17; or 21 jewel movement. (regardless of when made, and minimum number of jewels the regulations required, high accuracy was required. 8) Depending on when made, a size 18S or 16S. Basically a "Railroad" watch was and is a engineering (and construction) marvel. 😁👍 Wish I could get my 1885 Elgin H.H Taylor (an 15j "Railroad Grade" (it met the requirements of several railroads (but not all) until c.1889, when the Feds made time keeping regulations all the railroads had to follow, by adopting the Ball rules.) size 18S key wind/set watch) serviced and properly regulated in all of the original 3 positions. 🤨 I'd carry it all the time ... retire my Casio wrist watches ... 😇👍
Nice video but i think you might have got a thing wrong. wasn't the waltham 845 and Hamilton 940 21 jewel motor barrel marked adjusted to 5 positions" a railroad even though they were full plate 18s movements non lepine.
I have discussed this in other comments - the list of acceptable watches varied with the railroad in question. Full-plate watches were accepted in some cases into the 1900's, but they were outgoing technology and not acceptable for the most progressive railroads, and definitely not acceptable for railroads supervised by Ball.
I am not aware of any Westclox watches that would meet the requirements for actual railroad use; I believe they used the term “railroad” for marketing purposes. Westclox did make a very large number of watches from the 1940’s on to at least the 1980’s, and maybe still do. These are low-cost watches with more in common to “dollar” watches of the era than railroad watches, and the price difference between these and railroad watches was 20X or more - “dollar” watches were just that - a watch for a few dollars, or at one point in time, a single dollar. At the same time, true high-grade railroad watches were $75+ - the equivalent of a couple thousand dollars in today’s money.
"Adjusted" means a manual process was performed on the watch to balance its rate over temperature and two or more physical positions. I don't know off the top of my head how many adjustments were in the 940, but usually temperature and at least a couple positions including dial up and crown up.
@@MinnesotaClocksandWatches Later on they were stamped 5 Adjustments because that was the standard of a Ball watch. R.D. Montgomery carried that forward. So we really don’t know how many positions these earlier watches were stamped “Adjusted”?
Got a question: the Hamilton 940 and Waltham 1892 are two railroad watches that were approved, but these two are 18s, full plate and feature the "Jones Sword" adjustment, how should we define them?
I mentioned this in the video - what constituted a railroad watch depended on WHEN you are referring; and these standards were not universally applied, as each railroad could make their own rules. When made, a Hamilton 940, an 18-size Illinois Bunn Special, Waltham 1892, etc., likely would have been accepted for many railroads. If you were trying to get a job in 1925 with any of these watches, even though they are still first-class timepieces, your watch would not be accepted. This video tells the story of Webb C Ball's work and will be most relevant for railroads that applied his standards. His standards are the most recognized, but other railroads - especially regional ones, may have allowed a number of watches that Ball would not have accepted, in some cases for many years after Ball's rules were published. From a collector standpoint, I believe the most reasonable perspective is to consider a watch to be railroad-grade if it would have been accepted at the time of its manufacture. There is gray area here, and some features would be more likely to disqualify a watch as being railroad-grade (pendant set/roman numerals), and some features that may be more likely to be overlooked (non-Lepine).
Hey how are your friend, today I picked up a 1942 Hamilton 917 not knowing anything about it because it was absolutely beautiful it looked like it was a year old. It’s been running for a few hours and it’s not even a second off so it’s pretty good so far, I seen that the railroad Hamilton gold fill was going for over $1000 so I really thought I scored just to find out my watch is only worth $400 with the chain and that’s max , Anyway I shouldn’t be too greedy or disappointed because I paid $200 for it and being that I know nothing about the watch I took a gamble and it could’ve been much worse I could’ve lost. The gold has no where marks on it a matter of fact I did take a video of it and put it on my channel. Anyway I just thought I’d share have a great day brother . I know the date of the watch because it has initials in it and then it says September 1942 I mean what a dead giveaway huh
Thank you for sharing your story. If your watch is solid gold, that is truly a great deal. Many watches are "gold filled" meaning there is a layer of 14K gold wrapped around a steel inner layer. If you see hallmarks like [14K] that indicates it's probably solid gold. If it says something like 14KGF or has words like 20 year or 25 year guarantee, this indicates the watch is not solid gold, but rather gold filled. It's a wonderful piece either way though.
@@MinnesotaClocksandWatches No I opened it up it said 14 karat gold filled but it’s OK it looks like it was made yesterday I feel blessed to have it and I will hand it down to my son, thanks for responding
Railroad watches tended to be high-grade expensive movements in gold-filled or even base metal cases - they put the money where it mattered. Conversely, many watches with solid gold cases had cheap movements, as they were bought for bling. I don't know if there is a simple answer to your question, but returning to something I covered in the video, the process of "adjusting" a watch was very labor-intensive. An "adjusted" movement could cost significantly more than the mechanically identical "unadjusted" version of a watch movement.
Great video! Question: in general terms, how does one reduce a major difference in positional variances between positions? I balked having my Hamilton 950B simply regulated (told does not need a service). Because it is +24 resting dial up, and averaging -7 vertical crown up (resting static day after day). The error is about 1.6. Is it an adjustment of the collet, or is there a part worn out?
Positional differences in watch timekeeping are related to how gravity pulls on the movement. The parts of a watch with the greatest impact on timekeeping are the balance wheel and hairspring. In a dial up or dial down position, the balance wheel is resting on the cap jewel, which usually has a smaller contact area than if a watch is in some kind of vertical position where the balance wheel is resting on the sides of the pivots. If you have a cracked jewel or a slightly bent pivot, that could be part of the problem. The other area that may need attention is your balance wheel may be out of poise. If the watch is in some vertical position, a poising error may mean the balance has to overcome a heavy spot that is less of an issue than if the watch is dial up. This may be less of a problem on your 950b which has an anti-magnetic hairspring, but it is possible that a moderately magnetized mainspring might not be bad enough to have coils stick to each other in a horizontal position, but with a little sag caused by gravity, could become an issue. As I mentioned in the video, the difference between "Adjusted" and not adjusted was less about the watch materials, but about the labor involved in setting up the watch correctly. In the 75 or so years since your 950B was made, it's possible that some watchmaker that has worked on your watch has unadjusted it.
Tourbillons are mechanically impressive, but they are very difficult to build, which would greatly increase the cost of an already expensive timepiece. I also wonder if there are ruggedness concerns - it doesn't matter how perfectly the watch keeps time if it stops with a small shock. I mentioned this in the video, but arguably the most effective requirement of the whole evolution of the railroad watch is the inspection program which ensured watches were maintained. The 30 seconds/week spec is not hard to achieve with a well-made and maintained watch. Conversely, the finest timepiece on the planet can still fail if it is poorly maintained.
Did accurate time matter in preventing accidents as trains may be moving in head on ways but one would switch before collision and you had to not be ahead of schedule?
There were scheduled trains and non-scheduled trains (known as extra trains). Scheduled trains could run as much as 12 hours late, but never early. Train schedules were published in the Employee Timetable for each Station, including passing sidings. Extra trains, not having a schedule, were dispatched by train order, by the Train Dispatcher. Extra trains were required to clear the main track at least 5 minutes ahead of any scheduled train at any Station. All trains, Scheduled or Extra, were required to enter sidings at the first switch unless specifically authorized by trainorder from the Train Dispatcher.
I've addressed this and similar comments previously. What "railroad-grade" meant depends on the time period in question and the rules of the particular railroad in question. In the 1890's when the 940 and similar came out, it was suitable for railroad service; but as technology advanced, so did the requirements. The 940 would probably not have been accepted at major railroads at the end of its production in the late 1920's as there were better choices. By the end of production of the 940, the 992 series was already a 20-year old design which did meet all of the new requirements. What collectors today consider "railroad watches" typically encompass all time periods at once, and by that definition the 940 is considered a railroad watch by many or even most collectors. My intent was to trace the evolution both of watch technology and regulations, and in the opinion of Mr. Ball - the most influential voice in this world, the 940 doesn't cut it.
Should be shown to the owners of the TV hock shops so when a dolt comes in with any silly pocket watch and states, "My grandfather worked for the railroad," they would know the statement was cahcah.
This is as close as it comes to a perfect tutorial, given by a very articulate man who absolutely knows what he's talking about. This video has taught me so much about the railway watch in less than 20 minutes not a single second wasted. (excuse the pun on minutes and seconds.)
THANK YOU so much. My grandfather was a machinist for the Rock Island line for about 30 years and I recently acquired many of the family passes which allowed for free or greatly reduced family travel, so I’ve become interested in many things related to the old railway system.
(June 2023) - What an incredible and easy to understand video! You are a natural instructor with great examples to show. I learned a lot. Many thanks!
Thoroughly informative and well done . This type of video is why I don’t pay for cable tv. Awesome video
I picked a good time to fall down the pocket watch rabbit hole. This video needs to blow up, but then again, maybe I want this part of the watch hobby to remain affordable.
Thank you for your kind words! Watches are really fun, and unlike clocks, a bit easier to store and transport. :) I love that watches were treasured by their owners, and the large financial investment required to acquire one meant that they were repaired and used for decades. I wrote an article on my website showing my great grandfather's railroad watch (he wasn't a railroader but appreciated a fine timepiece). It has a lot of wear, but that shows how important it was to him.
Best of luck as you build your collection.
minnesotawatches.com/emotional-attachment-a-personal-story/
@@MinnesotaClocksandWatches Where can i purchase a railroad pocket watch thats
authentic?
This was absolutely fascinating and I thank-you for sharing your in-depth knowledge. I just started collecting pocket watches and this has further peaked my interest. I hope you continue to make these videos perhaps in other genres of the pocket watch world.
Thank you so much for this Sir! As an Aussie with a lifelong love of American railroads, I've finally got my first Hamilton 992! I also have a Ball 135 anniversary Trainmaster , and trying to find out info on Ball leads you down a path of some confusion! You have cleared this up and I now understand why Ball and Hamilton watches are so similar.
My next purchase will be a Ball labeled Hamilton....if I can find one in good condition.
Cheers Gregg.
I was really worried as to why my recently purchased elgin watch didn't have a crown capable of adjusting the hands. It took your thorough explanation for me to realize it uses a lever. Honestly that's a lot cooler, and thanks for this load of info
This is a fascinating explanation of what qualities a pocket watch to be a railroad watch. Thank you for your explanation of watches.
Well done! Normally I get my horological jollies on marine chronometers, but this has truly opened my eyes! Railroad is my next watch purchase, no doubt!
This is so interesting and informative. You are a great instructor, thank you, Sir.
Thank you - glad you enjoyed it.
Good info for those curious and wanting to learn. Don’t think you mentioned that a “true Montgomery Dial” must have the numeral 6 at the 6 o’clock position on the dial. There are similar looking “numerical index style dials”, but those do not include the numeral “6”.
There's a 50/50 chance I may be wrong on this but I believe those were Canadian RR Grade watches with a different Montgomery dial with the '6' at the 6 o'clock. Now I gotta go page thru my books....
Thank you for this video. I learned some new details about railroad watches from your video.
Those are stunning movements. Great video!
As someone who is just getting into watches and clocks- this was very helpful! Very nice class on railroad watches:)
Thanks for this. It was not only very Interesting but it also taught me a great deal.
I'm very glad you enjoyed it and found it informative.
This is a very well done presentation, very clear and informative! Thank you!
In conductor training for the CSX in 1998, I recall they had no criteria for a "railroad watch." They told us there was standard RR time, and it was the train crew's responsibility to adhere to it. I believe you could check the time via radio. I was in freight service, so time was only critical if you had a track warrant valid between certain times. When you accessed the company computer, for example to clock in and out, the computer put the time in for us.
Very informative, easy to understand and nicely presented! Thank you.
Very interesting and instructive video. That's an incredible watch collection you have in that box. 30 seconds per week is amazing accuracy. That's better than most mechanical watches today.
30 sec/per week meets modern chronometer standards.
15 seconds a day is the average chronometer standard
This was great! I have a Waltham 23 jewel RR watch with a small dial that tells how wound the watch is. I thought you had to move the hands manually to set it. Knowing that it is lever set, which mine has, was a real shock!
That is a very nice and very valuable watch. Glad the video was helpful to you.
I also have a Waltham 23 jewel RR watch I can not find anything about it. I was my grandfather’s I want to know it’s history. Could you shed some light on this watch?
I went to watch repair school from 1997 to 1999 5 days a week Where I learned how to service Pocket watches and wrist watches ! I later used my skills doing a volunteer gig at the Henry Ford museum in Dearborn Michigan identifying his "Actual Watch Collection. for transfer to a computer Database! AmericanPocket watches are so beautifull!😊
This was very interesting and enjoyable, thanks...
Really Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I just picked up a waltham 1903 at a junk store for $20 and I also have my great grandfather's Hampden key wind watch from 1873.
My gosh the amount of information in this video saved me hours of research. Thank you so much sir.
I never knew Webb Ball profited himself using his position like that, thats very very controversial.
This is a fascinating and informative video, many thanks. I have "discovered" American RR grade watches recently and have acquired a few, and this video revealed much new information to me. I envy your lovely collection. I will now subscribe and look at some of your other videos.
Thank you!
Good to hear the voice of my friend.
Thanks for watching...funny guy.
thanks for sharing.
This was amazing! Thank you!
Great video!! Beautiful collection too by the way. Your Veritas is pristine. Loved the 1892, 23j, Vanguard. Looked like it had diamond end stones. One related topic you might consider covering are the "Railroad Approved" watches. Those, in my opinion and based on their selling prices, are the "top tier" watches. Not necessarily because they are better made than "railroad grade" watches but because only the ones specified, such as the B.W. Raymond, or the 992/6's, etc., are the only ones that can correctly be called "Railroad Approved" and therefore more desirable. As I'm sure you're aware that the list also specifies the "B.W. Raymond" wrist watch, Ball "Trainmaster", as well as the Bulova Accutron "railroad approved" wrist watches as "railroad approved" . I've owned and serviced literally hundreds of pocket watches over the last 20 years. Always amazed at the level of finishing on the movements. The decorations rival the high-end Swiss wrist watch makers. Such a shame that only watchmakers are lucky enough to be able to enjoy them.
Thanks for the kind words and the suggestion. Yes - a number of wrist watches were officially approved later on as well, and I agree - American watchmaking from about 1880-1960 was the best in the world.
I don't think you need to be a watchmaker to enjoy a fine movement though - with care in a clean room watches can be opened for occasional viewing, but even closed up, watches can still be enjoyed knowing you have a great piece of mechanical art and craftsmanship.
Thank you for your in-depth American history Railroad pocket watch. I was researching abd wanted to get a Swiss made movement pocket watch.
Really great video, I have a small collection of railway watches, and Elgin military ones from the Second World War, including a 24 hour dial, navigators watch unusually by Elgin, not Hamilton, learn more from you than a number of books I have read, well done!
Thank you - that's very kind. I have found that sometimes watch and clock books overshoot with their knowledge - presenting really obscure details is interesting, but sometimes the big picture isn't communicated at all or very well.
Outstanding teaching and video work. Thank you.
Really well explained- with great examples- SUB'd!
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it.
Thank you Sir !! I learned a lot!!
Very informative video thanks learned a lot
Thanks for all the info and time control as the first way to tell where a train on schedule would be. I still think there is a place for pocket watches. The simple open face appeals to me. I am buying one just to velcro to my car for accurate time. it will be s quartz watch for more accuracy in all situations.
Awesome Thankyou I learned ay lot My next watch is going to be ay pocket watch but in my country nz thy don’t come available all tht much
Very nice video. You should do more pocket watch videos. I would be interested in how you clean your cases.
I found your explanation very informative, I usually just look at pocketwatchdatabase for information, I think I will take the age into consideration in future.
My Hamilton 978 looks better after this video.
Thank you for the idea - I appreciate it!
Very informative video . I used it to purchase my illinois 1918 meets all requirements. I'LL have to check the 30' per week though. I'm curious why so many watches say railroad grade that don't meet these requirements. Even on Data base it may say RR grade.
Hi James - thanks for your comment and the kind words. The 30 seconds per week requirement requires regular maintenance to achieve. Your railroad-grade watch would have left the factory exceeding that level of performance, but if your watch has not been maintained, being out of spec is not a surprise.
The most important - and first - regulation of what defines a watch suitable for use on a railroad is that it gets regular maintenance, otherwise it won’t keep time. This could be as simple as the watch needing to be demagnetized, regulated, and/or (and very likely unless this has been done in your time as owner of a watch) fully disassembled, cleaned, and serviced.
At this point in history, most of us declare a watch that was originally railroad-grade to still be a railroad-grade watch, no matter its current running condition.
I love buying these watches - they are amazing given the timeframe in which they were created and manufactured.
Just think - quality-wise - they are as good as high end chronometers of today (in my opinion) for a small fraction of the price....I've always thought they were undervalued...
Awesome to know this. Thanks for the video.
Can you imagine every conductor having watches perfectly in time?
Very good!
Very good video.
thank you for the detailed explanations!
Very interesting. Great video.
Thanks.
Wonderful job. Thank you.
Hey friend how are you doing, I always wanted to buy a sterling silver pocket watch but saving for retirement always gotten away, but today I picked up a 1942 Hamilton 917 in 14 karat gold fill. It is in excellent condition I mean for 80 years old it doesn’t look more than a year old. It tells perfect time, I picked it up for a little on the $200 on the street thinking I really scored because I seen the railroad watch in 14 karat gold filled went for well over $1000 in some cases just to find out that my watch maxes out at $400. It came with the original chain to so I don’t mean to sound like a spoiled child but I didn’t score of the way I think I did but I still didn’t lose it’s such a beautiful Little watch anyway I thought I’d share
Hey, if the watch is worth $400 and you got it for $200 then it's a good deal. I sell watches and I always tell friends "what you don't sell isn't an investment". If you don't plan to get rid of a watch then just get what you like and can afford in the future. Just in case you aren't aware sliver does tarnish and pit fairly easily. Watch out for that when you do find the watch you like.
@@pianofry1138
The watch is smooth, and runs so beautiful I’m going to definitely keep it. I understand from your point of you it would be an investment.
Fantastic video. Where did you get your pocket watch storage case from?
Thanks man. Very fascinating.
Fascinating video.
Nice video
Inherited a 1913 Hamilton 940 grade railroad watch and a 1908 model Waltham 10k gold filled railroad watch from my grandfather who passed three years ago. Just found out yesterday how valuable and sought after they are.
Very interesting content. Thank you for sharing. I have a couple of Walthams that need some work done. Can you recommend a repair shop?
Fascinating Video and nicely presented. I want to start acquiring these vintage pieces. Which brands would you say to look at and how should I start? Thanks
I'm about to release a video on beginning to collect watches. Stand by! Hope to have it uploaded in the next few days.
Pocket watches are beautiful inside and out.
Greetings from Dakota Co. MN!
Well done, my friend. Easy to follow along. Ball was brilliant in that he was a shrewd business man and salesman and knew he had a hit with his requirements that made him super rich and put his name in the horology history books.
Fine collection btw and where did you get that case? I need one!
Thanks Machinist Mike! You should join us in the Minnesota chapter of the NAWCC and/or the Minnesota Horological Society. You can find information about local groups on my website minnesotawatches.com.
The watch case is a handmade special. The foam is archival grade that doesn't corrode the watches and doesn't deteriorate to dust. The box is a woodworking project. I don't know that too many people would be willing to pay what they cost to make, but I occasionally cut the foam for people to refurbish existing cases. If I can find a reasonably priced mass-produced box to put the custom foam in, I may offer some for sale someday.
@@MinnesotaClocksandWatches I've been meaning to join up and and on the nat'l level too just haven't gotten around to it yet. Sent a few emails back and forth. So many projects...
Where to repair my pocket watch?
I believe I have an example of one of the watches in your collection. Bottom right in the case. Elgin 166?
Accurate time meant life or death. There were heavy fines for letting your watch run down causing it to have to be reset. Conductors were not allowed to set their watches on their own.
I had friend who worked for the railroad.
Can you tell us more about the first watch, the Elgin with the locomotive engraving/stamping, also shown at 13:30? Where did you find that, and what is the story behind it?
This is an Elgin 336, a bit of an odd watch as it dates to about 1920 - long after 16-size watches were available, and is pendant set. This would probably not have been accepted for railroad use other than on maybe a very small railroad. I suspect it was probably purchased by someone who liked traditional-sized watches but wanted the convenience of not having to disassemble the watch to set the time. It is a 17-jewel watch, so was a reasonably nice piece.
I don't have a personal history on this of any consequence - it came from Central Minnesota, picked up on my travels once upon a time.
@@MinnesotaClocksandWatchesBeauty! I have the same watch. I thought the stamping was just really worn out, but I guess that is how they look. Mine still holds time, and is in pretty good shape. It was handed down through my family but I don't remember the story behind it. The thing weighs a ton, for a watch.
Yup leave it to the French to make a better watch . The Vanguard by Waltham great watch I am about finished with a custom Vanguard I made . So did I get it right anything before 1896 was a railway watch ? I think Appleton and Tracy started putting one together way back in the Nashau room . I found a very old watch with 15 jewels in it made before 1870 .
Probably a better way to think about it is that prior to 1887, nothing was a 'railroad watch'; everything was just a watch.
There were very nice timepieces made going back a long way; my argument in this video is what makes a railroad watch is less about particular watch technology, but rather a program of scheduled maintenance combined with having a watch on the leading edge of technology of the era.
The requirements of a railroad watch were ultimately determined by the executive management of each railroad. I tell the story of one of the most important and influential railway time inspectors; I have no doubt there were other railroads that had less-rigorous standards, and possibly a few that were even more selective.
I have an old Regina pocket watch, it’s over 100 years old but I don’t know much else
Hey I also think we’re in the same trade I see the paint on your index finger
The best movie ❤
I thought there was also something about requiring the dial to be marked with Arabic numerals?
Yes - you are correct. I don't have a specific date when that was mandated, but I believe it was pretty early on. I did call out the Montgomery dial which was a common requirement near the end of the pocket watch era and took the quantity of Arabic numbers on the dial to another level with every minute written out.
Many thank for your useful information, ihave one old pocket watch. Could you please help me to find out oldness and value of that?
What is your suggestion for my 1st pocket watch
of the hamilton or any brand, is there any certain year range where they were making their best watches? Are there pocket watches made in our time that are better than the old railroad watches?
Uhhh so I got a railroad watch from my grandpa I have no idea how to open it so I could possibly fix it cuz it just NOTHING WORKS I TRIED EVERYTHING MAN
If you are interested in getting started repairing watches, I suggest you invest some time understanding what's involved. There are a number of good watch repair UA-cam channels that will give you a good idea what you're up against. I would not recommend using an heirloom as your first attempt at repair - find something of low monetary and sentimental value to start with.
Are watches still used today as a backup ? Computers could possibly fail.
Thanks
Thank you , this helps! Do you work on these or have referals?
what is the brand and specs of the watch in your hand at 1200? And what would one cost? thanks
Great!……now I want one…….LOL
I have read where temperature compensated RR timepieces used an escapement spring of special alloy that would regulate the escapement ( amplitude ? ) to zero out time errors so can anyone comment on this ?
Hamilton was a pioneer in many things horological; a significant example being their development of the elinvar alloy used in mainsprings. I don't recall off the top of my head the year that was introduced, but I believe it was in the 1920's or very early 1930's (e.g. the Hamilton 992E). This, in combination with the split balance wheel were important parts of a watch's ability to keep time in varying environments.
Generally speaking, railroad watches used the latest in watchmaking technology; as time went on, those improvements trickled down to lesser timepieces. Today, an Asian-made mechanical watch movement that you can purchase for $25 has all the latest watch tech that 100 years ago would have cost the equivalent of a couple thousand dollars.
I have a pocket watch with Ancre de Precision insignia. Is this considered as railroad watch?
how often do you have to wind the hamilton
The Biggest problem that I've found with collecting pocket watches is some Fool has messed with the balance wheel. Once this has been done to a watch it is impossible for the watch to keep time even if it is a railroad watch. It is expencive to rebalance the balance wheel.
Hay but do you know how to get my rip Curl watch case off on the back so I can change the battery please.
What is a "Railroad" watch?
1) An Accurate mechanical pocket watch that when properly maintained/serviced and regulated, puts the most accurate mechanical watch (and some digital's) made today to shame (using organic lubes; modern synthetic lubes were yet to be invented) ... in 5 or 6 positions - not just one.
Later Railroad watches (post 1899) were also required to be temperature compensated.
2) Rugged, even without "shock proof" chrystals.
3) Expensive when new. Moreso today, 100 plus years later.
4) Has a special dial. (Arabic numerals in Black. Post 1895 all 60 of the minute markings had to be numbered, in black, with the 5 minute intervals in Red.)
5) The time is NOT set by lifting the crown. (Making accidental time changes impossible.)
6) Depending on when made, could be key wind and set, or stem wind.
7) Depending on when made, 15; 17; or 21 jewel movement. (regardless of when made, and minimum number of jewels the regulations required, high accuracy was required.
8) Depending on when made, a size 18S or 16S.
Basically a "Railroad" watch was and is a engineering (and construction) marvel. 😁👍
Wish I could get my 1885 Elgin H.H Taylor (an 15j "Railroad Grade" (it met the requirements of several railroads (but not all) until c.1889, when the Feds made time keeping regulations all the railroads had to follow, by adopting the Ball rules.) size 18S key wind/set watch) serviced and properly regulated in all of the original 3 positions. 🤨
I'd carry it all the time ... retire my Casio wrist watches ... 😇👍
Nice video but i think you might have got a thing wrong. wasn't the waltham 845 and Hamilton 940 21 jewel motor barrel marked adjusted to 5 positions" a railroad even though they were full plate 18s movements non lepine.
I have discussed this in other comments - the list of acceptable watches varied with the railroad in question. Full-plate watches were accepted in some cases into the 1900's, but they were outgoing technology and not acceptable for the most progressive railroads, and definitely not acceptable for railroads supervised by Ball.
In what year was the Westclox railroad pocket watches made?
I am not aware of any Westclox watches that would meet the requirements for actual railroad use; I believe they used the term “railroad” for marketing purposes. Westclox did make a very large number of watches from the 1940’s on to at least the 1980’s, and maybe still do. These are low-cost watches with more in common to “dollar” watches of the era than railroad watches, and the price difference between these and railroad watches was 20X or more - “dollar” watches were just that - a watch for a few dollars, or at one point in time, a single dollar. At the same time, true high-grade railroad watches were $75+ - the equivalent of a couple thousand dollars in today’s money.
@@MinnesotaClocksandWatches Thank you very much!
Before 1930 how many adjustments were in the Hamilton 940 17 jewels? What does it mean when it says “Adjusted” on the inside?
"Adjusted" means a manual process was performed on the watch to balance its rate over temperature and two or more physical positions. I don't know off the top of my head how many adjustments were in the 940, but usually temperature and at least a couple positions including dial up and crown up.
@@MinnesotaClocksandWatches Later on they were stamped 5 Adjustments because that was the standard of a Ball watch. R.D. Montgomery carried that forward.
So we really don’t know how many positions these earlier watches were stamped “Adjusted”?
Got a question: the Hamilton 940 and Waltham 1892 are two railroad watches that were approved, but these two are 18s, full plate and feature the "Jones Sword" adjustment, how should we define them?
I mentioned this in the video - what constituted a railroad watch depended on WHEN you are referring; and these standards were not universally applied, as each railroad could make their own rules.
When made, a Hamilton 940, an 18-size Illinois Bunn Special, Waltham 1892, etc., likely would have been accepted for many railroads. If you were trying to get a job in 1925 with any of these watches, even though they are still first-class timepieces, your watch would not be accepted.
This video tells the story of Webb C Ball's work and will be most relevant for railroads that applied his standards. His standards are the most recognized, but other railroads - especially regional ones, may have allowed a number of watches that Ball would not have accepted, in some cases for many years after Ball's rules were published.
From a collector standpoint, I believe the most reasonable perspective is to consider a watch to be railroad-grade if it would have been accepted at the time of its manufacture. There is gray area here, and some features would be more likely to disqualify a watch as being railroad-grade (pendant set/roman numerals), and some features that may be more likely to be overlooked (non-Lepine).
Hey how are your friend, today I picked up a 1942 Hamilton 917 not knowing anything about it because it was absolutely beautiful it looked like it was a year old. It’s been running for a few hours and it’s not even a second off so it’s pretty good so far, I seen that the railroad Hamilton gold fill was going for over $1000 so I really thought I scored just to find out my watch is only worth $400 with the chain and that’s max , Anyway I shouldn’t be too greedy or disappointed because I paid $200 for it and being that I know nothing about the watch I took a gamble and it could’ve been much worse I could’ve lost. The gold has no where marks on it a matter of fact I did take a video of it and put it on my channel. Anyway I just thought I’d share have a great day brother . I know the date of the watch because it has initials in it and then it says September 1942 I mean what a dead giveaway huh
Thank you for sharing your story. If your watch is solid gold, that is truly a great deal. Many watches are "gold filled" meaning there is a layer of 14K gold wrapped around a steel inner layer. If you see hallmarks like [14K] that indicates it's probably solid gold. If it says something like 14KGF or has words like 20 year or 25 year guarantee, this indicates the watch is not solid gold, but rather gold filled. It's a wonderful piece either way though.
@@MinnesotaClocksandWatches No I opened it up it said 14 karat gold filled but it’s OK it looks like it was made yesterday I feel blessed to have it and I will hand it down to my son, thanks for responding
how much were railroad pocket watches compared to non-railroad pocketwatches?
Railroad watches tended to be high-grade expensive movements in gold-filled or even base metal cases - they put the money where it mattered. Conversely, many watches with solid gold cases had cheap movements, as they were bought for bling. I don't know if there is a simple answer to your question, but returning to something I covered in the video, the process of "adjusting" a watch was very labor-intensive. An "adjusted" movement could cost significantly more than the mechanically identical "unadjusted" version of a watch movement.
How much price
Great video! Question: in general terms, how does one reduce a major difference in positional variances between positions? I balked having my Hamilton 950B simply regulated (told does not need a service). Because it is +24 resting dial up, and averaging -7 vertical crown up (resting static day after day). The error is about 1.6. Is it an adjustment of the collet, or is there a part worn out?
Positional differences in watch timekeeping are related to how gravity pulls on the movement. The parts of a watch with the greatest impact on timekeeping are the balance wheel and hairspring.
In a dial up or dial down position, the balance wheel is resting on the cap jewel, which usually has a smaller contact area than if a watch is in some kind of vertical position where the balance wheel is resting on the sides of the pivots. If you have a cracked jewel or a slightly bent pivot, that could be part of the problem.
The other area that may need attention is your balance wheel may be out of poise. If the watch is in some vertical position, a poising error may mean the balance has to overcome a heavy spot that is less of an issue than if the watch is dial up.
This may be less of a problem on your 950b which has an anti-magnetic hairspring, but it is possible that a moderately magnetized mainspring might not be bad enough to have coils stick to each other in a horizontal position, but with a little sag caused by gravity, could become an issue.
As I mentioned in the video, the difference between "Adjusted" and not adjusted was less about the watch materials, but about the labor involved in setting up the watch correctly. In the 75 or so years since your 950B was made, it's possible that some watchmaker that has worked on your watch has unadjusted it.
@@MinnesotaClocksandWatches Thank you for your response. Now I know what I am after!
@@MinnesotaClocksandWatches I'm surprised that railroad grade watches didn't feature a tourbillon which I thought would help with the gravity problem.
Tourbillons are mechanically impressive, but they are very difficult to build, which would greatly increase the cost of an already expensive timepiece. I also wonder if there are ruggedness concerns - it doesn't matter how perfectly the watch keeps time if it stops with a small shock.
I mentioned this in the video, but arguably the most effective requirement of the whole evolution of the railroad watch is the inspection program which ensured watches were maintained. The 30 seconds/week spec is not hard to achieve with a well-made and maintained watch. Conversely, the finest timepiece on the planet can still fail if it is poorly maintained.
Did accurate time matter in preventing accidents as trains may be moving in head on ways but one would switch before collision and you had to not be ahead of schedule?
Exactly.
There were scheduled trains and non-scheduled trains (known as extra trains). Scheduled trains could run as much as 12 hours late, but never early. Train schedules were published in the Employee Timetable for each Station, including passing sidings. Extra trains, not having a schedule, were dispatched by train order, by the Train Dispatcher. Extra trains were required to clear the main track at least 5 minutes ahead of any scheduled train at any Station. All trains, Scheduled or Extra, were required to enter sidings at the first switch unless specifically authorized by trainorder from the Train Dispatcher.
👌👌👌
THE HAMILTON 940 ..942 WERE RAILROAD WATCHES THAT WERE NOT LEPINE CALIBER .
I've addressed this and similar comments previously. What "railroad-grade" meant depends on the time period in question and the rules of the particular railroad in question. In the 1890's when the 940 and similar came out, it was suitable for railroad service; but as technology advanced, so did the requirements. The 940 would probably not have been accepted at major railroads at the end of its production in the late 1920's as there were better choices. By the end of production of the 940, the 992 series was already a 20-year old design which did meet all of the new requirements.
What collectors today consider "railroad watches" typically encompass all time periods at once, and by that definition the 940 is considered a railroad watch by many or even most collectors. My intent was to trace the evolution both of watch technology and regulations, and in the opinion of Mr. Ball - the most influential voice in this world, the 940 doesn't cut it.
When did they stop making lever set watches?
Lever-set pocket watches were made at least into the 1950's.
@@MinnesotaClocksandWatches After posting this I saw one online dated 1959.
Thanks 🙏🏼
Can I buy one from anywhere?
Should be shown to the owners of the TV hock shops so when a dolt comes in with any silly pocket watch and states, "My grandfather worked for the railroad," they would know the statement was cahcah.
Mine is wound up but not working😢 what can i do or who can i call
Call a jeweler. If they can't help, they can refer you to someone who can.
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I wonder how many in the States knows railways started in England.
Any student of railroad history in the U.S. is aware of their origins in Jolly old England.