If You Use Tonex You Need To Watch This!! The Ongoing Saga Of INPUT LEVELS!
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- Опубліковано 5 кві 2023
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There has been a lot of discussion about input levels on Tonex Pedal and software. Unfortunately many people are still confused with what is actually going in. I have been called out by a lot of people and need to point out something very important within Tonex that everyone needs to understand. I truly hope this video will help to set the record straight on this topic. Thanks so much and I hope you enjoy the video and the presets!
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Global Input Trim Video: • HELP! My TONEX PEDAL D...
Input Level Video: • Do You Want Better Mod...
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I own both stomp and tonex as hobbyists home player I have learn a lot from you….You are a treasure for both of those communities… great playing btw .. coolest Canadian ever …..
Having used Tonex and Amplitude, I have to say the concept of treating my interface input like the input of my real amp in regards to gain was the game changer for me. So once I adjusted the input trim on my Tonex, and the input of my interface, I am getting consistent results that would be typical of any particular amp/guitar combination. I think this is why I was late to the party with virtual amps for recording was I didn't understand the gain process and never liked the results. Jason, for me that was the most helpful concept and so grateful for that explanation. Thank you! Get better soon!
Great Video Jason. Ignore the noise, your videos have been a great help for me and countless others
Perfect timing. I was just noticing last night that the input meter in the Tonex software was incredibly misleading and nothing sounded good when I tried to make it "look" right. I can understand why people short-sightedly think you are wrong, since the software doesn't seem to follow conventions us musicians are used to, but they really should verify things for themselves before throwing insults. It makes them look really foolish. Anyway, I'm glad this video has validated exactly what I experienced for myself because I was questioning myself and my recording setup.
I do find it interesting that there's a lack of understanding when it comes to input levels. To me, it's a habit to look directly at the daw first. But I learned that through trial and error over the last 15 years. Now there's people like you to help educate the world over social media. It's pretty cool actually. I've learned a lot from you. Thank you for everything you do!
Honestly, if people are complaining about certain things you talk about in your videos, I just see it as an opportunity to educate and reach out to more people, just like you're already doing. And that's bad ass!
Jason, more awesome content. Not that you need my advice, but please don’t take any of those comments personally. Those who know, (and that’s many, many) know better. You have taught me many great things. Thank you sir…
Hey man, I hope you feel better soon!!! Regarding the levels, the one glaring thing missing from TONEX (and other modeling plugins) is a way to calibrate input levels so that all profiles behave realistically relative to a given pickup's output. Of course, this would be trickier than most people can handle, especially if they have no idea how gain staging and input levels work. This is one of the big advantages to hardware like Helix and Axe FX, because their input levels are pre-calibrated to their models. Everyone else using ASIO interfaces with adjustable input levels are just guessing, and it seems like most don't even realize that a calibrated input level should make a single coil pickup respond much differently than a humbucker, for example. Anyway, good on you for continuing to stick up for yourself. I don't think I've ever seen you be off base on anything, but the guitar community is filled with a lot of a know-it-alls whose attitudes are stronger than their intellect ;)
Thanks, Jason, for all the efforts put into your videos! Get well soon!🙏
Excelent video! hope you feel better soon.
My Tonex input meter is almost Identical to yours Jason…you have to keep in mind most guitarists don’t know much about recording or setting input levels in the digital domain.
Yup that is very true they don't. The problem is when they call out people who actually know and try to influence others to follow their ignorant path, that is the true problem and an unfortunate situation because it doesn't help folks get the most from their gear. But you are totally correct :-)
i will pray for you IN JESUS NAME for healing. I have said it before you have been the premier person for the use of this Product, and what it needs to work properly. IK cannot compensate you enough as far as I am concerned. Hope you are back soon and healthy.
I can’t say I’ve quite reached the point where this makes total sense to me but I can see that you’re teaching us the right way to use the software. Many thanks!
Basically, it boils down to: If your recording clips in your DAW, your recorded track is useless and can't be processed post-production into a song. No sound engineer can fix a clipping DI & if it's too low, well then musical information is lost. In short: Only your DAW's input level meter matters, because that's what ends-up being recorded.
You Sir, are a perfect gentleman! P.S., like your videos too. Thanks!
Very helpful video. Thank you! I just got my Tonex and the metering in conjunction with a lack of technical documentation has had me confused on what I should expect to see and how to set the various levels.
Good clarification.
Well explained JS - take care of that back!
Hi Jason,
I've been watching your videos for a while now. These are great. Thank you for this quality content. That's how I came across this video. I myself have a Kemper Stage and an HX Stomp.
When I play and record through these devices, it sounds really good. I also have all the amp simulations. Helix Native, BIAS FX2, Amplitube, Neural DSP, ToneX etc.
I always wondered why these amp simulations didn't sound good. I also always wondered why people on UA-cam produced videos with these plugins and they sounded really good.
I tried various interfaces (but not the HX Stomp as an interface) such as M-Audio, Focusrite etc. The amp simulations always sounded equally bad. No matter which audio interface I used.
Until a few days ago I was still wondering what I was doing wrong. Then I saw your videos about it and I thought about it. It is now completely clear to me that increasing the input gain of the interface (Hi Z input) is roughly the same as increasing the output volume of a guitar pickup.
Because of your videos, I googled a lot and for a long time on this topic. I have read many different forum posts. Some people argue about the fact that if you don't increase the input of the Hi Z input of the interface and then increase the gain in the DAW, you will probably bring in the noise. One person says "That's nonsense", the other says "But technically it has to be that way".
After reading what felt like a thousand pages about whether the whole thing was nonsense or not, I just gave it a try.
I tested it with an M-Audio Air 192|14 interface.
I turned the input gain knob of the Hi Z input to the lowest level possible. From certain forum posts from people who have tried this and measured and compared different levels, I knew that about -15dBFS in the input channel in the DAW should be good. To achieve around -15dBFS, I increased the input gain in the DAW by around 3.4 dB. I then tested all my amplifier simulations.
All of them, really all of them, now sound really fantastic.
The noise that many people fear, which is probably strongly emphasized by this, had no relevance for me. There was no hiss.
I can only recommend that all people who felt the same way as I did to test this method. The problem is that every manual for an audio interface or amp sim software, for example, says it wrong.
All manufacturers actually write that you should use the Input Gain knob of the audio interface. There is also various additional information here. One manufacturer writes that you should turn up the input knob until you are close to the clipping limit. And there seem to be many other recommendations.
But all recommendations, regardless of the manufacturer, do not seem to be correct.
Jason, thank you very much. That kind of opened my eyes.
Here's a little addendum if you want to reamp guitar DI tracks with amp simulations:
I have also tested this. If you want to reamp guitar DI tracks that have e.g. -10dbFS or -12dbFS or -8dbFS volume, then you can simply make these tracks quieter, e.g. via clip gain.
This works at least with DI tracks that were not recorded too hot or that do not clip.
If you have DI tracks that are much too quiet, you can also use clip gain to make them louder. In my test, I reduced DI tracks that were too loud to around -15dBFS and increased the volume of DI tracks that were too quiet to around -15dBFS. Both worked.
Thanks for that explanation/demo. I had wondered what the heck the input meter was doing. Now I know I just won't know. Also, hope your back is on the heal - a wonky back is très miserable ☹.
My guitar, upon hit a 1st pos.E chord, is -7dbfs. I will check all captures on this which SHOULD be “0” on pedal input trim. Problem is 3rd party capture makers have NO standard while some have little to no concept of gain staging at all. IK have also not considered all practical aspects either; CLEARLY. This “wild west” mess is beneath any reputable company in 2024.
Hi there. Can you show con to control tonex pedal with desastre area dpc 5 gen 3, please!!!
I noticed this same thing when playing around with Tonex for the first time. I was making the mistake of listening to the audio output of my tonex pedal through my RME, but the Tonex software was set to the USB of my Tonex. Once I bypassed the Tonex Pedal, and set the input of the Tonex software to my RME's instrument input, the level looked better. But yes, no metering is not great.
One thing I noticed when just now trying to use it as the interface in my DAW, in dual mode, my DI signal is really healthy, but the actual effected signal from input 1 of the tonex is SO QUIET. If I turn the right volume knob all the way up, it gets a *little* better, but not much. Any idea how to better set the level out of input 1 of the tonex in dual mode?
Really appreciate the follow-up video, Jason! I'm still super baffled in the UA Apollo world though... If you follow their documentation, they advise setting input gain trim to just below clipping. Maybe they forgot guidance for Hi-Z? I've also been reading from folks to turn the gain as low as possible on the Apollo Hi-Z input trim. With my loudest guitar, it still clips though.
As you have well pointed out, it seems like if you set the gain at just below clipping for every guitar, you would lose the unique character of different guitars. One thing I've been considering as some sort of way to do something along the lines of what you suggested, would be to take my loudest guitar, set it so the peak is around -10, then just not change the input gain, regardless of guitar. That seems like it would create some point of relative, non-clipping reference for ToneX to process.
Also worth saying -- I always appreciated that STL Tonehub has an input level listener that sets the input trim appropriately for you based on pickup type and some sample playing.
You will not lose any character, which is EQ. What you'd do is just set input level to be the same for all your guitars, like all pickups have the same "hotness". You can treat it as a clean boost pedal between your guitar and an audio interface.
@@TheFeatalion appreciate the reply! That's exactly where I was coming from with my conceptualized solution. Any specific thoughts on the Hi-Z clipping?
Amazing to me how different the software is to the pedal. Maybe it's just me. One thing for sure, whether it's in my line6 or the ToneX, your teaching is the best! Remember haters are going to hate. I just bought your Dr Z for the Tonex Looking forward to testing it out. Thanks Big J for all the great content!🤘
Thank you so much and really glad you enjoy what I do. Also, thanks so kindly for grabbing the tone models, I LOVE that Wrecked Z! About the difference between software and pedal, just turn your Global Input Trim down to around -10 or -11 where it should be and all will be good 😁 Ther is more clarification on that matter coming soon!
@@JasonSadites Sounds better for sure. Thank you.
@@joewrightmusic790 my pleasure!
Anyone thought of using an EBow or similar sustainer to calibrate your Inputs? Maybe build a small construction to hold it in the same place on your guitar...
I personally love the Flat Earth Theory, I also love the Ellipsoidal Earth Theory. 😀
Has anyone pointed out that IK sent out a video that was just links to Jason’s Tonex videos…including the Trim Input video?
Thanks for point this "Ik Multimedia" problem...Can you share your exact Input Trim Recommendations levels based on both a typical passive humbucker and a typical single coils guitar pickups?
On Tonex Pedal I have my Input Trim set to -3 dB for all guitars. I never touch it after it is set. Hope that helps :-)
@@JasonSadites Thank you...does Input Trim is for the Pedal Live Mode or also for the TONEX MAX software? what about Input Trim with 3rd party amp sims?
I cannot make my Input Trim set to -3 dB because my guitar humbucker pickups aren't that hot to TONEX Pedal (wonder why?)...i leave it to 0 dB or sometimes +3 dB
I have tested this on my MacBook with 2 external interfaces (instrument inputs) vs the ToneX device. I used the ToneX software, not the plugin. What I found is that I have difference of about 1db. Models sound almost identical without input level tweaking in my case. I haven't try it in a DAW or on Windows, unfortunately, so I cannot approve or disprove your findings with my setup. So, I just keep everything on default, this works for me just fine. What I have found out during the test is that if I set my ToneX pedal to function as an interface and send both DI and processed signal, then I get the DI signal like I plug my guitar into a line level input. I've sent that info to IK Multimedia. I just wonder, maybe it is the behaviour of the plugin, or plugin on Windows, or, maybe, it is related to a version of ToneX firmware (I use latest to the date of test v.1.0.4), or only related for some, not all, devices. Actually, your finding (~13db) is very close to the difference between the instrument level (+4db) and the line level (-10db). That might be the key to find out where the problem is.
I don't have any problem. Everything works fine for me. The problem comes with others THINKING my input gain is too low. It is not. There will be more info about the topic coming in the near future that I am not at liberty to discuss at the moment.
@@JasonSadites I don't say that you have a problem. If you have to lower the input level on your pedal to get the same results as when you use software (plugin) and I should keep defaults for the same results this is definitely IK's problem.
Yes that is correct. As I said more to come :-)
@@JasonSadites I have been stalking UA-cam since you made that “more to come soon” statement lol. Hope you’re feeling better
You should just ignore the trolls. Shunt them to ground like you would a dirty power signal.
I was at a friend's house today and he loaded up your Chieftan in the Tone X plugin. It was so great. Nice work there. I have a Chieftan and that model is really, really good. Anyway I go home and of course it doesn't sound as good because my sh)t ain't workin' right. It hasn't worked right since I started on the odyssey to move away from amplifiers, but I think I finally know what may be wrong and I just have to figure out how I want to fix it. I believe I'm my USB cable run is too long. About 25 feet. I put the computer into another room so I could get rid of the fan noise, plus I'm a smoker and I don't want my computer breathing in that stuff and getting all sticky and gross. The interface is plugged into a powered USB hub on my desk, and that is plugged into the computer. I've been told this is not ideal. Anyway, when I load up ToneX and bring up your clean chieftain model, I have to crank the input knob all the way to get it sounding decent. I crank it in the plugin and still have to increase my input gain on my interface a little. Things get weird if I go too far with that. In Native I can leave the interface gain at zero but again I have to crank the input gain on the plugin to get it to peak somewhere between -18 and -24. I'll be glad to get all this stuff straightened out.
Glad you enjoyed the Chieftain tone models. Can I ask which audio interface you are using?
@@JasonSadites Hi. It's a Solid State Logic SSL2.
Can I ask if you have the Hi-Z button engaged on the channel that you are plugging your guitar into? That interface has 15db of headroom so you should be able to just add a small amount of gain to the Instrument input and all should be good.
@@JasonSadites It's definitely pressed in. I need to had a whole lot of gain either on the interface itself or in the plugin. Like 15 db.
If it's not the USB cable, maybe the interface is messed up. I actually bought a new one last night. It'll be here in a few days and if it doesn't work better, I'm going to rearrange all my stuff so I have a shorter USB cable run. And if that doesn't work, I have no idea.
@@JasonSadites Well there's nothing wrong with the interface and the shorter cable run didn't help, either.
So, if you know you have your levels optimized in your daw and audio interface, can you just ignore the meter in ToneX software? Or is it causing issues in the gain stage when capturing amps?
Hey Jeff, it hasn't caused me any issues whatsoever. The meter in Tonex plugin is pretty much useless and give no pertinent information unfortunately.
@@JasonSadites thank you so much, for what you do for the guitar community!
My pleasure Jeff! Really glad you enjoy :-)
I'd love to set my gain properly, but on the instrument input of M-Track 2X2M I have the gain all the way down and on a good chug I still peak on the interface. So until I replace that I'm gonna be stuck.
That's a bad interface you have. Buy something better.
@@milankotevski1663 oh yeah sick I'll just materialize some dollars. Really it's not bad, especially for the price and Podcastage went through it in pretty good detail, and other reviewers, to where I felt it was fine. Turns out instrument in can't handle hotter pickups, that's all.
I think the biggest problem is that IK failed to offer a basis on which all the models sound how they are intended to.
Sometimes you come across ones capture with much gain… sometimes with less. And since the Demo tracks in the software itself are very high output DI signals I kind of assume IK screwed all of their own models up according to Jason‘s logic.
Don't have a tonex but any information is good information. Hope your back is getting better man. I have buggered knees and have days when I can barely walk - living with pain isn't cool.
So you're hitting amps etc. at -10,5 dB maximum. That's interesting. I usually go in hotter. I do understand that people thought the level wasn't high enough due to the meter showing very little - however that's more of an IKM issue, than a you issue and calling people names is rarely the right way.
Any pro recording engineer would say your meter ballistics are correct for the input level.
These people are just losers. All you’re trying to do is help people, so carry on regardless 👍
Well then this begs the question, why would IK Multimedia implement input and output gain meters which are essentislly useless? It's nothing more than a gimmick.
People are just rude. Being annon here allows them to be asses. Don't take any of it personally.