Carpool Lanes: Commuting Miracle or Enormous Waste of Space?
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- Опубліковано 14 лют 2023
- Today we're looking at high occupancy vehicle (HOV) lanes -- all the permutations (occupancy restrictions, time of day restrictions, lanes vs. facilities, and HOT lanes, which allow single-occupant vehicles to buy their way into a less congested facility).
We'll go on some tangents, as usual, like how different metropolitan regions view HOV lanes differently, and how these kinds of facilities represent the dynamics of Anthony Downs' concept of "triple convergence."
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Previous CityNerd Videos Referenced:
- Heinous Land Uses Episode 1: Power Centers • What Makes POWER CENTE...
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Resources:
- ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freewaymgmt/...
- www.fhwa.dot.gov/bipartisan-i...
- www.c-tran.com/routes/105-i-5...
- www.opb.org/article/2022/05/0...
- www.oregonlive.com/portland/2...
- www.bayareafastrak.org/en/tol...
- sfcasualcarpool.com/
- wsdot.wa.gov/travel/roads-bri...
- scag.ca.gov/
- www.psrc.org/
- www.nymtc.org/en-us/
- www.oregonmetro.gov/
- mtc.ca.gov/
- www.dvrpc.org/
- www.ctps.org/
- www.h-gac.com/Home
- www.oki.org/
- www.cmap.illinois.gov/mobilit...
- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermo...
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Images
- Shoreline HOV By SounderBruce - Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
- Staten Island HOV By Tdorante10 - Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
- QEW/403 HOV By Haljackey at English Wikipedia, CC BY-SA 3.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
- LA 405 HOV By Coolcaesar - Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
- Carpool stock photo www.valleymetro.org/commute-s...
- Carpool photos by Flickr user WSDOT www.flickr.com/photos/wsdot/5...
www.flickr.com/photos/wsdot/5...
ttps://www.flickr.com/photos/wsdot/5601019537
www.flickr.com/photos/wsdot/5...
www.flickr.com/photos/wsdot/5...
www.flickr.com/photos/wsdot/5...
creativecommons.org/licenses/...
- HOT Lane, Escondido CA By Chevy111 - Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
- Highway 401 congetion, Toronto By Robert Jack 啸风 Will - www.flickr.com/photos/bob406/..., CC BY-SA 2.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
- I-95 Miami By B137 - Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
- Warringah Freeway, Sydney By Shultz6 at the English-language Wikipedia, CC BY-SA 3.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
- I-280 Sand Hill Rod exit By Coolcaesar - Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
- Caltrans HOV sifgn By Coolcaesar - Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
- Prospect Park West PBL By Jim.henderson - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
- PDX Max Station By Michael Barera, CC BY-SA 4.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
- Moody Ave PBL by Flickr user Dylan Passmore www.flickr.com/photos/dylanpa...
creativecommons.org/licenses/...
- SoWa bike infra by Flickr user Dylan Passmore
www.flickr.com/photos/dylanpa...
creativecommons.org/licenses/...
- Tilikum Crossing By Steve Morgan, CC BY-SA 4.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
- Casual Carpool by Flickr user Sharon Hahn Darlin www.flickr.com/photos/sharonh...
creativecommons.org/licenses/...
- BART By Utilizer - Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
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As Mexican, I loved that you reattribute the correct term of HOV to what they should have been all along: Bus lanes!
That's what we call them in Sweden, but they are only for busses (in service) and sometimes for taxis, not vehicles with lots of passengers in general, sadly.
Sir, you live in a civilized country in regards to infrastructure. USA is the land of the free, where we all have the privilege to take a car!
@@AssBlasster more like a requirement 🙄
That Insurgentes line is the busiest single traffic lane (non-rail) I've witnessed in person. Just so impressive. I think some in Bogota, Guangzhou, probably some other cities are busier, but I haven't been to those places (yet)!
Maybe the Lincoln Tunnel/XBL, haha
My ex used to drive to a park and ride and then stand in a line to ride with total strangers so they could use the HOV lane to their jobs in downtown Houston. It was called the slug line. The thing that always pisses me off about the Katy Freeway is that there was a rail line that ran parallel to it all the way into the inner city. But instead of converting it to a commuter rail line all the way to downtown, the line was torn out in favor of widening the freeway to the ridiculous dimensions we have today. We could’ve had the best of both worlds, but leave it to TXDoT to screw it up. So frustrating.
That rail line is not a public street to "convert" to anything. It is owned by the freight company.
@@xandercruz900 the rail line was completely removed which meant that the line was purchased from the rail company by TXDoT. Unless there was some other agreement that I don’t know about.
@@xandercruz900 yeah, before it was owned by txdot so it could be destroyed
@@jrivademarjr build a metro line in the median
Your main problem is that car industry sold you the Ponzi scheme called suburbia and labeled car dependence as "freedom". Imagine living a 10-15minute bicycle ride away from work. That's what it takes me to get to work in one of the European capitals.
The other weird thing about HOV lanes is that you realistically need to be doing 10mph+ over the speed limit to avoid irritating everyone behind you. I wish we could just have better transit instead.
Single lanes I personally try to maintain a "live and let live" attitude. If you're going 60 in a minivan, I get it. It's a carpool lane. Still going to get irritated if you're going 5-under in the left of two though. ;)
Hot 🔥 take: Irritating the driver behind you is the driver behind you 's problem. Don't be bullied into unsafe driving.
@@keithmcmanus2406 Yeah but don't sit in the left lane on a two lane freeway ever.
If you're going at the speed of traffic, why do you need to be in the HOV lane to begin with? The whole point is to provide HOV traffic a passing lane when congestion reduces traffic speeds as a way to incentivize carpooling. If you aren't passing, there is no reason to be in the HOV lane.
@@keithmcmanus2406 What a novel concept.
As someone living in Northern Virginia - I'm kind of sad you didn't talk about us. 395 had the first real carpool lane in the country (which actually was built as a busway) and the region has a strong culture of "slugging". We've now built HOT lanes across the region which help fund transit projects - which is awesome. I think you're right that enforcement is a huge question. Virginia has a special EZPass that you can set to carpool or non-carpool modes and takes your picture if you're in carpool mode. It's probably not perfect, but it seems to work well. Ideally, we'd replace "free" expressway lanes with HOT lanes, encouraging people to carpool or use buses, and get the people who want to/can pay to fund everyone else's infrastructure.
Ya, you really can't talk about carpooling in the US without talking about NOVA.
ah yeah my uncle lives there and he was telling me about how he signed up for a carpooling group that he uses for his everyday commute. thought it was cool but didn't realize it was a specifically popular in that area.
When I drive north on I-95, I see the electronic signs for the HOT lane congestion pricing to get from Potomac Mills to Dulles airport and just laugh. The HOT lanes are for people who are either rich or desperately late.
As a DC-city resident, who sometimes drives out to the 'burbs to partake in their ample, if poorly-used, space, I'm honestly shocked NOVA - and its highway monstrosities - didn't come up! Great fodder for the HOT lane though, so it'll be a perfect place to come back to.
Yup. And frankly, it's kind of a shame that the 395 transitway got turned into express lanes for cars so soon after it opened. If there's any two corridors in NOVA that most need high-capacity transit and deliberate policy to discourage driving, it's 395 and Columbia Pike parallel to it, specifically within the beltway.
The "casual carpool" system you mention in Oakland is even more prevalent in the DC-Maryland-Virginia region where is called "slugging". It's almost a kind of informal transit system based around park-and-ride lots.
This sounds a lot like the ad-hoc and often quite informal (as well as unregulated) transit solutions you might find in a rapidly urbanizing city in one of the emerging economies of Africa.
But they usually wise up and start getting at least functional bus networks up in a decade or so.
What I'm trying to say is that this is not an approach to transit worthy of a rich "first-world" country.
I’m not sure I feel comfortable riding in a car with strangers unless at least they were my coworkers. How do people make this casual carpool it safe.
I do feel comfortable riding in a bus or train with strangers though?
@@bjornnilsson1827 actually, the DMV has a great transit system mostly. The Metro is great. Slugging is basically free though, because DC has HOT lanes, so it's faster and cheaper to hitch a ride. The driver gets to save money because with passengers the toll lanes are free, and the sluggers don't have to pay bus fare and get where they want faster.
so basically with these systems, you go to a hub...lets call it a carpool-station and enter a passenger carriage to then be moved across a dedicated priority lane to the next carpool station where you then disembark
that sounds familiar to anyone?
@@bjornnilsson1827 the amount of car infrastructure the US has is something no first world country worth its salt should have, but here we are. Thankfully a lot of cities are working hard to improve that. And unfortunately, others are trying to make things worse. And on the other hand, third world countries probably shouldn't have this kind of infrastructure either, seeing as it's the more expensive option.
You should make a video about the "Park once" planning philosophy (as I've heard it called). Basically, admitting that for America's current climate, a lot of downtowns serve suburban, car-driving populations. While I'd obviously prefer cities where you don't need a car at all, I love places like Alexandria, VA, where you can park in a subtle, off-street garage, then spend the entire day walking, biking, using busses, to go between cafes, parks, offices, bars, etc.
I think they are a very cool, practical setup to have in modern America.
That’s probably a more realistic way to rebuild a city. I’d support that if transit is improved in parallel with the idea that eventually the parking could be removed.
That's what people do where I live if they live outside reasonable public transit access, or possibly if they have small kids, or if they have more stuff to transport than they can comfortably carry.
The problem is with cities like Boston, there is no space to build more parking, in miles and miles outside the city in every direction. Theres a reason Gillette Stadium is closer to Providence than Boston, there just simply isn't enough available space. The commuter rail is a great way to get people into the city without bringing cars, but it is underfunded and underutilizec
@user-vo9wd6tx6c
The front of the garages should be small shops and cafes instead of blank concrete walls.
The ideal would be that no one knows that there's a garage there until they look for it.
@@averyshaw2142 As a Boston area resident who had watched large swaths of the metro redeveloped in various ways over the years, there absolutely is the space, room, real estate, etc. Like everywhere else, it's a question of public support, political will, and resources.
At first when you said that the 401 was the world’s busiest freeway, I thought “What about the NJ Turnpike?” But then I realized that you said “free” way. Still the first time I drove on the 401, for a moment I thought I had been teleported to Houston.
Highway 401 is the world's busiest controlled-access highway in terms of volume - regardless if you count toll roads or not.
@@nli569 I once saw a meme, and it's totally true, regarding how much a guy loves a girl: "Baby, I would drive across Toronto on the 401 at 5pm on a Friday afternoon for you."
That's a hellride, trust me.
I definitely think HOV lanes have their merits if they are used for multiple purposes. Living in the Puget Sound, you see a lot of interesting things happen around the HOV network. They are used fairly heavily by the bus network as a pseudo bus lane, which make the Express busses surprisingly reliable. WSDOT sometimes converts them into temporary general purpose lanes to offset closures on the actual general purpose lanes. WSP loves monitoring the HOV lane because single occupancy drivers end up trapping themselves in it if they're trying to bypass traffic.
It's a good example of infrastructure encroachment running in the direction of transit uses instead of personal autos/parking. Perhaps the thing to do with roads that are being squabbled over for every last inch of car is to ask for HOV instead of bus, then run more bus on it. There's an implication of surveillance and enforcement to both HOV and bus lanes, with the main downside being that it's not as high a level of service for the bus. I imagine this would work in Houston.
I was thinking about this! I have been in busses in HOV lanes and definitely going faster than the flow of traffic
@Nick Gerz HOV lanes _do_ allow buses and motorcycles (including single rider), as far as I'm aware. The occupancy requirement applies only to normal cars.
The dream was when the buses that used the express lanes connected right into the downtown transit tunnel. Such an incredibly fast trip. (Not that I'm in favor of returning buses to the tunnel haha)
@@CityNerd Wait... the southbound express lane exit to the convention center has a closed-off spur ramp... is THAT where that ramp led to??? I've always wondered about that! ...And yeah, no buses in that tunnel now please, y'all gonna crash into the trams.
All the time I lived in Seattle it never sat well with me to see people make weekend trips to Oregon in order to go on luxury shopping sprees. I worked in the tech industry, and this was pretty common among my coworkers.
It definitely benefits those that are closer to the WA-OR border way more. I also live in the Seattle area, but would never go to Portland for shopping because the travel cost would eat into any savings you would have gotten from the absence of a sales tax.
It benefits people who make ludicrous amounts of money more, too. If your shopping spree is say, 20,000 dollars, avoiding the 6.5 percent sales tax represents a 1,300 dollar savings which is almost definitely worth the travel cost. I legitimately saw people do this scale of spending on Oregon trips when I worked in tech in Seattle.
Was just reminded that Seattle and King county both have additional sales tax which brings it to 10.25 percent in Seattle proper, making the savings on 20,000 dollars of spending potentially 2,100 dollars.
I don't understand people not supporting their own cities.
@@matthays9497 "Haves" will do anything to keep their fortunes out of the hands of "have-nots".
There have been several cases here in Toronto of drivers being busted for having mannequin "passengers" while driving in an HOV lane. Looking forward to your 401 video!
It happens here as well. There's also the issue about whether or not pregnant women count as 2 people for the purposes of the lane. Motorcycles are automatically eligible for use of the HOV lanes regardless of how many people are on it. That's mainly a safety thing as it means that the motorcyclist just has to pay attention to 3 sides rather than 4 and is less likely to be in a crash.
In Texas, I mainly would see entitled single-passenger cars & trucks barreling down the HOV. They don’t even try to trick with dummies. Never once saw law enforcement do anything. Ought to be mass transit lanes.
A 'hot lanes' video would be super useful. In DFW area we had the TEXPress toll road lanes that would change rate based on use like you're describing. These were completely separate highways in the median of a freeway. At some times the rates would be stupid high, like $20 for a ~5 mile stretch. From my experience, 'company cars' and their drivers would exclusively use these roads when possible as their employee's hourly rate was way higher than whatever the toll rate was. It's just a really crazy way to even further divide the 90%+ car usage into private transit and super-private transit. All of these roadways still get dunked on by the mediocre Dallas light rail (where available)
I was really hoping he’d talk about TEXpress or something similar. +1 for a HOT lanes video!
Last time I drove from NY to FL I noticed they have something similar near DC. The traffic was terrible on the regular lanes, but there was barely any traffic on the toll part. I thought it was ridiculous.
I think it would be interesting to do a top 10 video for linear parks/multi-use paths created from disused or buried car/rail corridors. I've lived in Atlanta for the past ten years, and have witnessed first hand the amount of development that the Beltline trail has spurred around the city. Beltline proximity has become a huge factor in housing demand/prices. It's not perfect by any means, but the trail has undoubtedly provided certain neighborhoods with connectivity that they didn't have before, and more importantly it's increased the demand for dense, walkable development. It's easy for critics to dismiss such projects as just an "overpriced sidewalk", but of course there's much more to it than that. It would be interesting to see where these kinds of projects have been successful, where they've failed, and what factors might have contributed to either outcome.
I would enjoy this too, and a conversation around if ripping up tracks is a net benefit
Well right now it’s an overpriced sidewalk but they’re planning to add streetcars along the entire thing
@@neolithictransitrevolution427 ^this!
Detroit has something under construction called the Joe Louis Greenway, many times I've seen the Atlanta Beltline referenced as something Detroit has looked to as a case study. A part of the greenway that already exists is called the Dequindre Cut.
The greenway created from the big dig is a great example of this
Hi Ray. On the topic of freeways, I've been thinking lately about how much space each car takes up at speed. I calculated that with a 3-second following distance at 70mph, a 15-ft car takes up 1/45th of a mile, meaning a 30-mile stretch of 4-lane freeway essentially maxes out at 5400 cars served at any moment (in ideal conditions, not considering idiots and higher traffic segments) before compounding build-up. And if a car is passing through the whole 30-mile stretch, they're there for a minimum of 26 minutes. It's all about scalability, a huge deal in tech, which people in the 50s didn't consider when they were trying to design "car utopia."
And relating to scalability of freeways, I've seen how adding lanes forces more merges through lanes of long-haul trucks in the slow lanes, trucks which require greater following distances, are physically longer, and feel more imposing (vehicle arms race). Many of these trucks are only on the freeway because of a combination of fully subsidized roads, subsidized gas, and the, uh, situation with the Class I railroads of this country. I say all freeways should have tolls according to distance traveled and vehicle weight, and certain railroads must be nationalized.
Anyway, thanks for my weekly fix of harrowing infrastructure content; change cannot come until we are bothered enough to demand it.
SF: Casual carpooling
DC area: "Slugging"
Same thing, different name, at least pre-pandemic.
A lot of our HOV infrastructure in Northern Virginia is being converted to HOT (Express) lanes, where the two in Suburban Maryland (I-270 and US-50) are free HOV but with active police enforcement. (Very active.)
And it's hideous: Virginia just widened I-66 for express lanes and it really did a number on the visual landscape with lots and lots and LOTS of flyovers. And only on VA-267 is there active bus transit on HOV (and the free/restricted Airport Access Highway).
I'm not from anywhere even near Toronto and I still shudder at the thought of the traffic on the 401 at rush hour. It took me 3 hours to pass through from Oshawa to Mississauga in rush hour traffic, and that was 15 years ago. Bumper to bumper the whole way. And really, the traffic didn't ease up until we were nearly to Kitchener.
Can you do a video on what it would take to convert rail lines to commuter rail lines in a large metro area and (if there are any) include examples of where this was done? I recently came across an article that discusses the ATL Trains concept and think it deserves the CityNerd treatment
Seconded! That article is an interesting read
I had never heard of that. Looks so interesting. Wonder if there would be an option for more rail expansion due north of the city, as areas like Alpharetta and Johns Creek are rapidly growing. Of course those areas are generally opposed to transit expansion
What's the difference between rail lines and commuter rail lines?
@@brokkrep commuter rail only runs at peak hours in peak directions, serving commuters from the suburbs. it’s better than nothing, but is way worse than building an actual regional rail line that runs all day in both directions. And with WFH taking over, it looks like it will become an outdated format.
The best case study is probably the Overground network in London. RMTransit has done some videos on it.
I drive from LA to Irvine using carpool lanes on a weekly basis, and while they do help bypass some traffic, I’d much rather have a robust public transport system that would negate their existence.
I feel for you! Last year, on a business trip, I needed to go from Irvine to Malibu during the morning commute. Took me well over two hours. Though I grew up in the LA area, it’s still befuddling that there isn’t a good rail network. Good to see some new lines and stations going in though.
@Worst Case Scenario - I was in San Francisco recently. I rode BART into the city, walked to my meetings/meals/hotel for a few days, and took BART back to the airport. Lots of unhoused people there too. Mental health issues as well. I wasn’t harassed and I was never stuck in traffic or looking for parking.
We need rail so people will have options. And if more people can take rail, those freeways won’t be as congested.
Don’t plan for today. Plan for 20+ years in the future. You can’t build enough lanes for 20+ years of growth.
That’s exactly what I said
"casual carpooling" is called "slugging" in the Washington DC area and it's very common there.
Spot on! This coming from a recovering (that is, newly retired) American professional transportation planner. I was sooo frustrated with my Urban Planning grad school professors in the mid-'90s who were completely enamored of HOT lanes and refused to get the points you make here.
You have my sympathies…
As a Portlander, it feels great to have our city show up in so many of these city planning and infrastructure videos! I moved to Phoenix for work, and was surprised to see the crazy usage of HOV, while also very subpar public transit
Love the time lapse analysis of congestion
As a Torontonian, I always love some external 401 slander. While MTO now seems to want to roll out more HOV lanes across Ontario, (they just added new ones on the expanded express lanes on the 401 in Mississauga...) it irritates me they refuse to convert any existing lanes to HOVs. If you do a bigger video dedicated to 401, I would definitely encourage adding in some research/analysis of its relation with the 407 ETR, and that as a policy failure of its tolls pricing its potential users out the market
We really need bus-only lanes on the 401
Maybe if the Conservative government didn't sell it off, the tolls would be lower.
It's only slander if it's false...
I'm in Montreal and also don't like the 401. My parents lived in Chicago for years and I used to drive it in a day... the 401 could turn it into a two day trip if I wasn't both lucky and careful.
I visited Humber College in Toronto for a multi-day conference. I was looking forward to the trip (in January!), until I realized that it wasn’t near downtown and there was no rail to get there. So, instead of staying downtown, I rented a car for driving solo, stayed in a hotel in a parking lake on a stroad, and got to be a contributor to the commuting clog. 20 years earlier, I had stayed downtown for a couple of weeks, and it was a nice place to be. Visiting Humber was like living in auto hell, just colder.
The goal of then Premier Mike Harris was to cut Ontario taxes by 30%....part of his "Common Sense Revolution". No matter that any toll on the 407 would discourage its use in favour of Hwy 401. For Mike Harris, the 407 ETR was a "policy success" because its privatization allowed him to not only recover the cost of building the highway but also to sell the revenue stream from making it an electronic toll highway and thus record a positive entry on the books.
Really love those kind of more analytical and very specific videos you do (the one about strip was a good one too)! Top tens are nice but eventually, the same cities come back again and again.
Keep up the good work!
Nah I have to rig the criteria to make sure NY isn't #1 every time
You definitely should do another video on “ HOT Lanes/ Express Lanes“.. I’m in the DFW area and during rush hour those bad boys are regularly $10+ for like 3 mile segments
TEXpress lanes are an extortion scheme in broad daylight. 183 corridor from 360 west to 35W in Fort Worth was regularly 20 bucks, even when the toll roads were just as congested as the freeway...
I've seen 20 bucks in bay area. I think it's fine though if that is the market price needed to maintain the ideal throughput
With HOT lanes is there an opportunity to turn them into effective bus lanes by dynamically setting the right occupancy number and price? Maybe you don't need only busses in a bus lane, just not enough cars to slow down the busses
@@matthewshultz8762 It has to be extortion, else everyone would pay for it, eh?
@@punishedkid I've definitely used it before, to me a $5 fee to save 15 minutes is worth my time with my income. To others, it may or may not be. I'd certainly be taking that road every time if my company told me they'll always pay for it. I'd rather that money be used to pay for a different private option, like more light rail. The company that owns and operates Texpress makes an absurd amount of money, even with how expensive it is to build and maintain the highways.
Toronto has a bunch of different flavours of HOV lanes on city streets, from the Bus, Taxi, and bike-only Eglinton when it’s not a hole in the ground during core rush (7-9, 4-6), to HOV 3+ on many suburban stroads during extended rush (6:30-9:30, 3:30-6:30), to the former and current glorified all-time BRT lanes that let bikes in too. Then there’s the 403.
+1 for a video on the insanity of the 401 (and the Toronto “beltway”) btw.
And the underutilized 407!
The first time I drove through Houston, I swear I got anxiety just seeing so many lanes. And the fact that houstanians drive at 20 mph over the speed limit, I got scared to just switch lanes. I do hope they make that bullet train from DFW to Houston
Texas really need to improve on there public transportation.
I hope so too but definitely not holding my breath. But you’d think they coulda found a terminal in downtown Houston vs than the one planned.
@@JTGKirby There's really no space in Downtown Houston but the suburbs have loads of unused and underutilized developments. I really doubt Houston will ever make a good improvement to its infrastructure though.
Through bonds, grants, and private funds Houston has firm plans for metro rail & bus expansion. Don’t be such a downer pal.
One of the problems with HOV lanes is when the number of people required per vehicle, such as in Los Angeles, where state representatives forced them to go from 3 to 2 passengers. On Interstate 10 from downtown LA to El Monte to have the famous El Monte busway, then they made it buses and 3+ HOV, then the state got involved, and it went down to 2+. The last time I drove it a few years ago, during a busy period, the busway/HOV lanes were going slower than the regular traffic lanes.
The question I always asked do the HOV lanes do any good if there is absolutely no enforcement of the lanes? I remember when I was living in Salt Lake City, and I could not believe the number of times I would see people driving around in cars that had the passenger seat made up to look like they had passengers with them. In another case, when attending Railvolution in November (where they announced they were no longer Railvolution), I took a Flix bus from Fort Lauderdale Airport to Miami, and I noticed that there were dozens of signs announcing that if you get caught in the HOT lanes, it will be a $25!!! dollar fine plus the toll fee. Talk about an incentive to cheat, the chance of getting caught is very low, so why not?
There is also the whole story of the proposed Interstate Bridge but that could really be going down a rabbit hole!
The 2+ experiment on the El Monte bus lanes only lasted from January 1 2000 to June 30 2000 because it was a total disaster, with the lanes being slower than the regular ones. They went back to 3+ on July 1 2000. They are now open to single and two passenger vehicles via FasTrak tolls.
@@Geotpf Thanks, I had no idea it went back up to 3, and yes, it was a total disaster (and also had no idea it was that long ago but then again when I visit LA I rarely head down that freeway.
I grew up in North Portland, literally half a block from I-5. Nice to have someone online appropriately call the situation "appalling." It was thirty years ago and still is today. It's so frustrating WA always successfully blocks all initiatives that go through on the OR side for a light rail across the Columbia. Also, as someone who also lived in Hood River as an adult, it's ridiculous how the metro area keeps blocking putting a toll on the bridge. Tolls do not slow down traffic significantly on all the other older Columbia river crossings, you get used to them, if you use the bridge daily you have a pass, AND it pays for the upkeep of the bridge. It's an old bridge that is expensive to keep in running shape since it has to be opened and closed regularly to keep the mechanism working. Also, there are way too many highways merging with I-5 between North Portland and Janzen Beach (that last exit before the bridge) that have been grandfathered in and would not be allowed so many in such a short space anywhere built today. That final exit, Janzen Beach itself, pretty much only exists as a place for WA residents to go shopping in OR and the people on the island who aren't associated with the shopping malls have tried multiple times to get it removed to reduce traffic on the island but of course that never passes. In short, the whole thing is a huge mess that no one can seem to pass anything to improve. So frustrating.
There are quite a few C Tran buses that go between Portland and Vancouver, but most are commuter buses. The C Tran 4 bus is probably the main non-commuter bus between the two cities. It runs between Delta Park and the VNC Mall.
Yeah not to mention the #60 that runs from downtown Vancouver to the north end of the MAX yellow line, and runs every 15 mins nearly all day. The 105 route he mentioned in the vid is way better most of the time though - back when I commuted to Portland and back I only used the 60 late in the evening when the express busses had stopped for the night.
WAKE UP BABE NEW CITYNERD VIDEO JUST DROPPED
They had the carpooling-with-complete-strangers thing on the NJ side of the George Washington Bridge too, but that was just because of reduced tolls rather than an HOV lane (and then they cancelled the reduced tolls). I never understood why people didn't just take the 186 bus.
So we can save like $2 hahahaah. It was a symbiotic relationship
Because "Then people will think im poor".
There's a series all about the 401 and the tow truck companies that operate there. Awesome show and a scary road at times.
Freeways should be optimized for express buses and for goods movement.
Really, what should happen in the ideal situation, would be a flyover lane to get cars onto and off of the carpool lane. Then only buses, cars with 2+ riders and motorcycles would be allowed in. The issue I have with the HOV lanes more than anything else is that they're basically useless during the time when they're the biggest incentive to reduce cars on the roads as you have to merge 2,3 and sometimes 4 lanes to get into the HOV lane. You then have to do the same the otherway when you do get to your exit. Meanwhile the traffic in those lanes is likely completely stopped. You have the same basic issue if the HOV lane is the first lane, except now it's clogged up with traffic that's trying to get out of the HOV lane.
I suppose, you could make the HOV lane the first lane, and then have the incoming traffic do so from below, with the HOV lane going around it, but that also has many problems.
It was tried in NJ over 20 years ago and it failed MISERABLY. The DOT would up taking down all the signs and markings. Can you do a piece on why it failed? NJ was one of the first states to remove HOV lanes only8 after using it for a brief time,
Because it was implemented in the worst possible (aka cheapest) way.
1. Take a regular interstate highway. Make no improvements or expansion to the infrastructure.
2. Designate the left lane as the HOV lane. Paint diamonds, add signage. Do nothing else.
So if you had 4 lanes in each direction before, now you effectively have 3 lanes for most cars. If you had 3, now you have 2.
If you were carpooling, you had to use the same on-ramp as everyone else, then fight to get over to the left lane through bumper-to-bumper traffic, then speed past everyone, then fight to merge back into the bumper-to-bumper traffic so you can get back to the right lane before your exit.
If look at I-90 on the Chicago loop, there are no carpool lanes. On ramps are in the middle and off ramps on the edge.
Traffic is distributed better. You can reversible express lanes in the center to minimize gridlock.
Awesome Video and amazing to see my hometown HOV lane featured...Richfield, MN.
Speaking of interesting bits of car-centric infrastructure, I’d be really interested to see a video on jug handles. Those things where instead of making a left turn from a lane in the actual road, you go off to the right on a little half-loop that turns you around to get pointing in the direction you’re going, and you go straight through the intersection 90 degrees from where you were going before.
Its safer than turning left normally. Less conflict points
@@TheSkyGuy77 Added to that, it counts as traffic calming, because you have to seriously slow down, making it even safer.
A HOT lane video would be really interesting.. perhaps a look at dynamic pricing in general? There's been some murmers in Seattle about dynamic pricing a la Real London, and it might be an idea that more people take a look at, and had really interesting, real world implications (like regressive pricing, how it impacts transit usage, etc)
I think he already did a video on tolled/hov/no-thru-traffic streetgrids, or I may be confusing with another channel
Your content is always a great and concise bang for my time spent in your channel. Three in a row is the perfect amount of thought provoking inspiration. Thanks. Keep ‘em coming. I also rewatch and learn a dense topic over time without investing in longer videos. So well put together.
From the perspective of someone who actually likes cities. Love it
Seems like HOV lanes offer just enough room for a two-way electrified commuter rail right of way. Just throwing that out there, as these HOV lanes are usually found in the stretches of freeway that cut through high density areas such as the downtowns of cities. At the very least, make it into a bus lane for a decent regional bus network.
Around here they built the freeways with an excessively wide median between the two. The idea was to run trains down the middle. By the time they got around to building light rail along the corridor nearly 50 years later, they couldn't use that center area for reasons I can't remember. But, with the separation, it does at least make it a lot harder for a car to go from one side to the other and hit the cars there as the grass area tends to slow the car way down in the meantime.
Atlanta has really bought into the hot lanes. They've built them on 75 north and south of the city. They are on 85 (but not separated...just another lane). They are planning to put them on 285 which will be a continuing construction nightmare, and on GA 400. I think I used the 75N hot lane once and it saved me a whole lot of time, but they are generally never going in the same direction I am going.
As always, your videos are so interesting and I learn so much from them. Unrelated to HOV but could be an interesting thing to discuss in a future video: I’ve seen a few people online state that “walkable” cities are inherently ableist for a myriad of reasons from some people need personal vehicles to get around because they can’t walk far or have sensitivities aggravated when being on public transit therefore cars and parking are needed everywhere, to design features of so-called “walkable” cities leaving out accessible design such as ramps, tactile and audio cues for blind pedestrians, etc. While I personally don’t think the concept of walkable cities is inherently ableist, and in fact would help a lot of disabled people (plus I get the feeling that some of the people who state this are trolls or just want to maintain the status quo), I also don’t want to brush off the valid concerns of accessibility. I have the memory of a goldfish, so have you done a video on this topic before? If not, would you be willing to talk about this in the future?
That's a pretty weird take once you know that ~60% of disabled people can't even drive.
I call BS. I am sure blind people would rather walk around a no car space than a car ridden one.
Watch the Not Just Bikes video called "The art of autoluw". 😏
Oh, I am very excited about this topic. In Germany I never saw these and I was always curious about them.
The only thing I could add is that some city's in Germany used to have a rule that Electric vehicles where allowed on bus lanes (Taxis too) to encourage electric vehicles. Which was always funny to me. On the other side, it nether really was an issue as they stop it the second electric vehicles where somehow popular and it was never really used.
These exist in Germany, not only in bus lanes. I know there are some in Düsseldorf and Dortmund
We have Green HOV lanes in Ontario (Toronto) where you can carpool or have an EV.
@@neolithictransitrevolution427 the ev qualifier better not stay for too long
@@hobog You actually need to get a "Green" license plate, not just have an EV. Right now it's very easy to get one if you have an EV, but I imagine they will start restricting it to new purchases or something in the future.
I think mexico has the best understanding of HOV lanes. Buses only. No EV exemption, no 2+ occupied car exemption. No pay extra to drive exemption.
In Arizona, they have an interesting twist on the HOV concept. Alternate-fuel vehicles (including EVs and, for a while, hybrid and CNG vehicles) get what I like to call the "Blue Plate Special". That is, we'd get a special license plate with a sky-blue background that grants unlimited driver-only access to the HOV lanes. It was pretty handy when I was there.
I grew up in WA and it took me way too long to learn that in OR there is only one HOV lane in the whole state on that brief stretch of I-5, and I remember learning that CA has 24h HOV lanes which was surprising in its own right 😂 (I only just started the video haha)
As a European, I can't add anything to HOV-lanes, since they don't exist here. At least I've never heard of any in Germany, Austria, Switzerland or France.
Only 24 in California? Must be more than that in metro LA alone. (OR does CA mean Canada?)
@@stevengordon3271 Techie means there are parts of California (esp. around Los Angeles) where HOV lanes are enforced all day, every day.
@@EdgarEsc1972 Thanks, I missed the h. The terminology I am used to is "24/7".
They only have 24h HOV lanes in LA as far as I know. Idk about SD and I've definitely never seen 24h HOV lanes anywhere in NorCal, whether that be SF, Sac, SJ, Oakland, etc. I was hella confused when I first moved to LA and saw that I couldn't go in the carpool lane at 10pm 😂😂
Great video! I learned things.
And as someone who lived in Clark County, WA for 21 years (never commuting, but sometimes visiting and shopping in OR), it was nice to see the old stomping grounds. We avoided peak travel times as much as possible, but even with the family in the car we avoided the HOV lane. It feels like a place where you can get in but never leave.
Of course, the real fun is when there’s a bridge lift you didn’t plan for. Whee!
I really appreciated this topic since I live right next to 167 south of Seattle where they just finished extending the HOT lane northbound between Sumner and Auburn. I would definitely like to see another video about how these work and your answers to the questions they raise.
Only HOV lane I’ve used is the one on 84 going west into Hartford CT. I’ve always thought they’re kind of silly since we have a real HOV lane - our bus rapid transit lanes for Fastrak - going into Hartford from the other direction.
HOV lanes are great for 400+ CC motorcycles, but single-lane versions make it actually slower than just cutting through traffic. HOVs are significantly more safe than the freeway for bikes though.
Unless you're on the WA 405 HOT during peak hours in the right lane, that is. ;)
Half the time now days I just camp on the left (trying to go a reasonable speed) to avoid someone that was at a complete stop merging feet in front of me.
Appreciate the focus on some of the crazy stuff WSDOT does to try and address our insane traffic.
Seeing as I drive into Boston on i-93 pretty much every morning. I've come to the conclusion that I think the HOV lane (at least this one in particular, not sure about others) creates MORE traffic in the morning in the way it's designed. The HOV is the furthest left lane, separated from the rest of the highway by a moveable cement barricade that alternates placement in the morning vs the afternoon. So the people driving on the HOV have to merge back in with the regular traffic, which leads to the regular traffic slowing down in order to let them in and creating more bottleneck that stretches over the majority of that stretch of highway at peak rush hour.
And it's even worse in the afternoon rush hour because the placement of the HOV's exit meets up with a near immediate highway split. Meaning that to continue on i-93 after the HOV, all HOV travellers have to not only merge into the traffic from the left lane but also only have about 1/2mile to get over 3 lanes to continue on the highway, which slows down the entire highway for miles and makes the commute home even slower for the majority of commuters. I think it's got to be up there for worst designed highways in the country
The hov lanes in our city is too narrow and short since Boston is a compact major city.
As someone who's lived in Missouri my entire life, HOV lanes sound like such a foreign concept. Albeit, I think the Missouri city driving experience is a bit different from some of the places listed in this video considering the high highway miles/capita of the two major cities combined with the fact toll roads are illegal.
hov lanes are discount bus lanes
I regularly use the HOV or HOT lanes here in Dallas when I need to go further away from home into more congested areas or if I'm time bound in some way. The best HOV/T lanes are built with transit in mind, which the Dallas region hasn't done a great job of. In Atlanta, there are several dedicated HOV entrances that we ideal for buses to use which help increase transit reliability. The Washington, DC area has also done a good job of integrating entrances to park and ride stations into its HOV/T system.
Love the episode! Have so much fun in Spain.
The RTC express buses in Las Vegas stopped using the carpool lane recently. They probably stopped because car drivers complained they could no longer use it as a 80mph private lane.
Wow, look how young professional and fun those carpoolers are. That must be how all car based commuting works
In Atlanta, we have "hot lanes" outside the perimeter which become regular HOV inside the perimeter.
This was very enlightening and a great explanation!
Re: "casual carpooling". As @marcusaurelius113 also mentioned, i95N from Virginia toward the pentagon also has a similar practice of slugging that's grown out of the HOV lanes there. NoVA also has i66 inside the beltway that's all HOV (during commute hours). You'd think that'd all be a clue for better metro coverage from/to those areas, but what do I know.
We need to be converting more mixed-flow general-purpose lanes to H.O.V., and we need to be utilizing these lanes with more freeway-running express buses that can transport people frequently and reliably among walkable mixed-use districts and multimodal terminals.
Suggestion for a series of videos... comparing a particular North American city to a European one. Like say, Toronto and Madrid, Philadelphia and Munich, San Diego and Vienna, Minneapolis and Brussels or Dallas and Hamburg. Was trying to leave NY, LA, London and Paris out of it, they already get enough press. But perhaps look at transportation to football/baseball stadiums, to airports, urban fabric, compare shopping or theater districts, bike-ability, density of grocery stores in the urban core, parks and nature, kilometers and location of highways, maybe even compare a nearby suburban town.
Long time Casual Carpooler; I mostly agree with your comment about “policy failure”. I think there’s more to it than merely bart avoidance.
HOV/HOT lanes are an amazing tool - for politicians to use to pretend that they're "fixing" a problem instead of making things worse.
As a Chicagoan, carpool lanes are an extremely weird idea
From your twitter post I was really expecting a mention on Transmilenio, but thanks again for using the Hamburgo Linea 1 Mexico City metrobus take. I even posted an answer related to that other posted image.
Charlotte NC has dynamic tolled lanes that a private company funded and will get paid back over 50 years. Does lock in that no expansion of lanes or side running roads is allowed for those 50 years. If tolling doesn’t cover the financing the state picks up the difference. Selling point is a reliable time to get to where you are going as they have to ensure the speed doesn’t drop below 45 mph. The cost is based on where you get on and off of the lanes. Buses can use them for free so helpful on serving express route to northern towns.
Anger was that it didn’t expand the current free lanes of the highway which are only currently 2 lanes. A simple solution would have been to have the on ramps to become lanes for the next off ramp until you got to the bridge over the lake but when you pricing is based off congestion you don’t want to make it better.
We are also seeing similar types of lanes added to the outer loop but are funded by the state so another question would be state vs private funded toll roads.
California's allowance of fuel efficient cars to get HOV-exempt stickers has always seemed like a loophole for the wealthy that can afford to buy the newest cars to get a fast pass. Nowadays there are so many hybrids and EVs on the road that the HOV is basically just another lane, though it is still the best spot for motorcycles to be as there are reduced opportunities to [legally] merge in and out of them.
As far as I know, those are limited to the first X vehicles sold, and expire after Y years. It was intended as an early incentive to bootstrap demand for electric vehicles. And it does help on the air quality goal (somewhat, depending on the charging source).
But even so, you're absolutely right about the class issues.
I work at a Costco north of Seattle and I was talking with a manager about other warehouses in the PNW. I was wondering why the warehouse north of Portland absolutely killed us in sales every day. The manager told me “there are no sales taxes in Portland, so it attracts all the suburbanites in southern Washington, it’s great for the consumer, and the Oregon economy!” Great that the consumer’s best option to save money is to drive on freeway mainlines at peak hours?? Great for the economy even though they don’t collect any taxes?? People at work think I’m crazy when I ask questions like that though.
This entire video just blew my mind. Is the US really a developed country if there are people who are losing both time and money due to this insane nexus of car dependency and taxation policies?
@@ChasmChaos its 50 developed countries competing with each other in a trench coat
I used to shop at the Costco growing up it's not near the bridge in the video. It's off I-205 near the airport.
Fun thing about the I5 rush hour lanes, they're closed during the night but it's easy to get on them by foot or on bicycles.
Agreed with the other comments - surprised there was no mention at all of Northern Virginia highways. You could do an entire video on the DC region and the slug culture, HOV lanes, and HOT lanes...
Do HOV lanes ever get converted into bus ways? Seems like that would be pretty low cost in many cases, and could really increase bus travel times. I'm curious what the challenges are for that kind of project because I don't really know. There is the obvious people can't stand losing car travel lanes, but I feel like it's an easier sell to convert an HOV lane into a HerOV lane. Dunno
That requires bus network to change accordingly. Too often in the USA, freeway bus service involves huge park-n-ride deserts, and infrequent peak-only bus times
I like this idea for intercity bus travel, like between Portland, Seattle, Vancouver BC
The HOV lanes in the Seattle area currently get used pretty heavily as psuedo-bus lanes, but I think this works for us because the HOV lanes are regularly enforced. Because of this, our Express/highway buses are already pretty reliable and stick closely to their timetables.
Lately it's the other way around. The busways on I-10 (east of downtown Los Angeles) and I-110 (south of downtown L.A.) were converted to HOT "express lanes".
Going into the video, I think Bus lanes are great. Let's see if my thoughts change on the matter. Edit: Realized bus lanes are not the same as HOV lanes. Glad we agreed at the end.
Ha, was just thinking about the HOV lanes in Pittsburgh when I saw the title. In the 90s an employee was lazy and messed up the switchover which caused a fatal head-on colision.
City nerd! I always had an idea for a following distance enforcement scheme! Paint a section of highway blue or a different colour, if you are traveling at say over 60mph and you are caught on camera in that painted section with the car in front of you, you can be fined.
Transit is horrible at SF but you have to compare it to the inconvenience of your car being broken into.
Last time I was on Bart some got shot in the same cabin as me. Not uncommon either.
We have plenty of HOV lanes here in Europe, we call them bus lanes and thanks to them many people prefer public transportation with 10minute intervals in bus lanes to their own cars. Also I fail to understand how two people (husband and wife?) in a car is carpooling but one person (their single unmarried neighbor) has to suffer in traffic jams.
@@worstcasescenario3689 The theory is that the government wants more future taxpayers and so subsidizes married folk to encourage population growth
You mentioned BART’s inefficiency as a side comment, but I think it’s worth noting that you could literally draw a curved line through SF and it would represent where BART goes. It’s very obvious what paradigm built that rail system: the suburbanite wealthy class commuting into the business district of the city. It’s also worth mentioning how the business district isn’t zoned very much for mixed use, so now that many companies are exiting the high rises of SF, that area, where BART exclusively services, will be a ghost town.
I feel like you left out that a lot of users of HOV/toll lanes are also transit users, as they often double as BRT lines, at least here in Southern California. The El Monte Busway along the 10 in LA county and 235 Rapid along the 15 in San Diego come to mind.
I always wondered what hov meant. When I was a kid i used to think it meant hover cars 😂
10/10 for redefining what "High Occupancy Vehicle Lane" means at the end
As a Dutch person, my city built HOV lanes... which has an entire different meaning here. Instead of "High Occupancy Vehicles" it stands for "High-Quality Public Transport" (Hoogwaardig Openbaar Vervoer).
Sounds like a Bus lane for people that don't have a busses
We'll have our first HOV-Lane sometime next year in my country (Lux). Not a big fan personally but managing travel across borders in Europe is somewhat more of a challenge than managing it across state-borders in the US I imagine?
Anyway, now that you are in Europe, do you have any plans on traveling across the continent for more videos? I would love your insight on our free public transit.
To Houston's credit, the HOV/HOT lanes are open to buses to allow buses taking freeways to bypass traffic congestion on the main lanes. And Houston METRO's long-term plans include converting all the HOV lanes into separate, protected lanes for each direction to allow bi-directional bus service all day.
Excellent video.
Those "HOT" (right?) lanes where you pay to be faster sound an awful lot like "pay to win" or "rich have it better", or for that matter "fuck the worker!" for the little Marx in me.
Years ago, the 404 southbound approaching the 401 had an HOV lane added. The HOV lane ended and merged with the rest of traffic as it approached the 401. So anyone using the HOV, mostly cars with one occupant, could pass all the regular traffic and then “butt in” in front of it. Which when there was congestion meant that the HOV lane was the only lane really moving. One day when I had to drive from Markham to Downtown TO, approaching the 401 to get on the Don Valley South, which ought to be a few minutes drive, took something like 45 minutes (or more, I have kinda blotted the nightmare out), BECAUSE of the HOV lane.
That's one thing that really bugs me too, the HOV I used would frequently spit you out into the fast lane on the freeway with NO merge lane, plus the exits from HOV onto freeway were so few that to get off on the right exit, it often meant jumping 4 lanes in a 1.5 mile stretch of freeway, or exiting the HOV one exit or 5 miles prior, totally negating the HOV usefulness
@@matthewshultz8762 As they have appeared here in Ontario, and because you can buy a pass to use them with one occupant, they have become a pay-to-play, “screw you,” to drivers who can’t afford a pass. There is no excuse for them. All that investment should be going to public transit.
@@dahemac Agreed. There's nothing High-Occupancy about the TEXPress lanes in DFW. Most of the time it's single-driver cars with their company paying for it, financially it actually makes sense for the company...
You should honestly do a video about the I5 bridge replacement boondoggle if you haven't already. There's a lot of bad, with the massive bridge and freeway expansion, but also a lot of good, like extending light rail into Vancouver. It's a weird situation.
I remembered I was able to take CTran to the Portland side at delta van port without issues.
Just a note real quick: The HOV lanes here in the Phoenix metro area are often moving SLOWER than the regular travel lanes during any given rush hour (which lasts from about dawn 'til dusk). Cheers!
take a look at the Dallas/Ft Worth system. Expensive Texpress Lanes. And the only HOV I've ever seen where a huge machine moves blocks twice a day to change lanes in and out of town, I30 East
I learned a few things. As always, thank you.
When I was in DC I used to park in a lot and jump into cars with commuters.
They would roll up and say their destination and we would hop in for a completely silent and free ride.
Thanks for sharing 👍
This video is curing me of any desire to live on the west coast
The hot lanes in California are a (pause for dramatic effect) disaster. Generally the only barrier to entry are lines of paint so anytime I drive at peak time and the hot lane is active I see people dodging in and out to avoid the toll gates. The worst I have seen is someone clipping another cars bumper just to avoid paying the toll of a few dollars.
Unique to North America thanks to urban sprawl. If we changed our focus away from cars and considered other forms of transportation around the city as foot or bike, then we would have everything more closely located around our domicile and reduce the need to use the car. But because the city planners base their designs around the cars, we continue to push out from the urban areas out to the suburban areas, and all the needs are conglomerated around the 4-way intersections with gas stations, convenience stores, and strip malls. So everyone has to pile in their cars to get anything done, creating congestion on all the streets. So they then increase the number of lanes, which only temporarily help with congestion until others realize it’s now wider and faster, thus creating more congestion as before. It’s a never-ending loop. And the HOV lane is to discourage vehicles with low occupancy yet they keep asking everyone to use a car to go anywhere. And increasing the load in the car doesn’t necessarily help with emissions since now it takes more energy to move more bodies in the car the same distance, which is creating more load on the engine due to the amount of load applied by all the passengers. Light rail is an option, but it’s generally only used as a commuter option to take you from the outskirts of the furthest suburbs into the downtown areas, and not around your neighborhood. So you have to then get in a car, drive to a train station, and then take the train to the final destination, and repeat to get back home. And when you head home, you then have to get stuck in the same traffic. More cities are sprouting up toll roads because we all hate the traffic. But they keep selling these automobiles, and keep designing the cities this way. When will the madness stop!?
Hi, actual portlander here and long time (former) Seattle are resident.
The Portland HOV is now the same speed as GP most of rush hour. The fastest lane is always the right most lane. The way you describe the dynamics of that HOV are something from 5 years ago.