You're Included - The Trinity and Evangelism
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- Опубліковано 14 сер 2014
- For Interview Transcripts, Study Guides, and Discussion Topics: www.gci.org/YI124
C. Baxter Kruger and Paul Young discuss the impact of the Trinity on evangelism, and our participation in the message of Jesus.
William Paul Young is the author of the best-selling novel "The Shack" and "Cross Roads." Dr. C. Baxter Kruger is the founder and the president of Perichoresis, Inc. and of Mediator Lures. He obtained his doctorate working with James Torrance in Aberdeen, Scotland. He is also the author of "The Shack Revisited."
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I come from a traditional strong evangelical church background , we had tent meetings on a regular basis with the big names coming into town. We all had to be involved indoor knocking etc. for me it was a total cringe factor. I grew up thinking I was a wimp, guilty because all I wanted to do was run and hide. I couldn't tell people they were going to hell if they didn't receive Jesus. Into their lives. My heart soared as I listened to this msg. This is love , this is grace , this comes naturally for lovers who want to release the truth. Religion makes it easy to believe the old method because it controls, it uses guilt and fear. Thank you guys love this.
Your not alone. I grew up in the same way of thinking.
The way I know this is real, is how it takes the effort of me and puts it on God. I just get to participate.
I too have guilt, because I’ve never brought anyone to faith. This frees me up to love others with no agenda or fear.
Baxter is right about the harms caused when he shared the story about people evangelizing at their family friends funeral service.tragically i did the same thing at my engagement party decades ago in my self righteus fundamental days thank you Michael, William and Baxter for sharing your hope and lives
I mean William's story about the evangelizing at his family friends funeral
As i listen to this i reflect on the time i spent in evangelism work, where people thought i had some gifting, but there were no numbers of responders... . It occured to me that the only person i actually know became a christian was i guy i shared some living space with. I never remember laying out the four spiritual laws or any method. I just spent some time talking to him about his hobby...photography. A few months later he wrote telling me that it was my witness in the way i lived that had spoken to him. As i listened to the discussion he came back to mind. As far as i know hes the only one... but there could be many others. What i have decided from here is to show genuine interest and love for people without being afraid to let God into the space however he wants is going to be the way to go. Part of me longs to know how my faith and love for Jesus has influenced others, however i’m beginning to realise i just want them to know Him as I do.
Kruger is bang-on. The Trinity is a very difficult concept to wrap one's head around; however, you can see the importance of it, as you begin to comprehend it (to the degree we come to see it) ! The important thing is, that you are saved by grace through faith ... not of our own doing ... only, by Christ's "doing" ! God takes on full responsibility for His creation and has not, hung out to dry ! Ultimately, to accept that choice, the onus is upon us all ... each in his or her own time, as one becomes convicted of that fact. It is a process, nurtured along the way by our Savior !
So appreciate this conversation and pioneers redigging the well of Truth.
Excellent message of inclusion AND also, fear lives in the nervous system. We must share spiritual disciplines which move us up the ladder from survival to the safe and secure regulation. where we heal from our childhood traumas that every human has endured regardless of how wonderful your caregivers were. Mental health and unwellnss is at an all time high. People need peace + resilience tools
Been a Christian for 25 years. Always was under guilt and anxiety because I thought I was responsible for not being the best "used car salesman," and it does turn your relationships into a transaction, it feels. What a relief to hear stuff like this and hear the biblical support.
The ‘Gospel’ has been misrepresented especially in western evangelicalism. This has led many back into a ‘works based’ religion causing confusion & exhaustion. The Mirror Bible by Francois DuToit is excellent at tearing down that religious narrative & bringing relationship back front & center.
love this!!
Beautiful 💞
Thanks so much. This has answered so many questions I have had
Some people call that a "treasure hunt".
Love this conversation! I've shared this so many times on facebook ;-). Just so you are aware, the link above does not work currently
Thanks for sharing!! Thank you for letting us know. The link is now fixed. :)
Christ the Son and Word is obviously a part of everyone's lives where they know him or not...
The point is, and the good news of the gospel itself (which is Himself) is that we may now be relationally reconciled to Him - In Him - and through Him.
Regeneration and the transference from one Kingdom into another is not merely a matter of 'perceiving' what has already taken place for us personally... For we were really (individually) actually abiding in one kingdom, and then are actually transferred - at the point of conversion - into the other.
Yes Christ The Creator and Redeemer has already redeemed and recreated everyone... But this remains pure Potential until we receive Him. (if not, notice the danger of falling into the notion of self realisation / enlightenment similar to that of Advaitan and much New Age thought at this point)
"If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ - he does not belong to Christ"
- St Paul
"En Christos" or out of Christ is not a construct of the proud elitist mind of man, but a revelation from God about the nature of reality from His perspective.
Itching ears folks... Do not be deceived. Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, and, to some degree, Catholic and Protestant thought, already holds the balance and the beauty of all of this without having to resort to novel teaching or God having to be seen to sovereignly "determine" in a western Augustinian / Calvinistic or (ironically) Universalist sense.
Yes Lord, help me in my unbelief
Humility is the greatest thing... for the "us and them" mentality is often negative and destructive and fails to see the image of God in all. Truly all goodness, beauty, wisdom and light - wherever it is found - comes from Him Who "lightens every man coming into the world", but He is the fullfilment of all religion and pure philosophy and we need to be born again of His Spirit - without which / Whom we cannot "discern spiritual things". For the man without the Spirit of God does not understand the things that come from the Spirit of God.
Abiding in the finished work is not burdensome... It is true rest... but we must continue to choose life and light, for none are eternally "secure" until they are securely in eternity...
But His mercy undures forever !
Xx
The question for Baxter is: what do you tell someone to get save ?
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What do think Kruger and Paul Young about Hell?
How do you interpret John 3:36??, which means that he will not see life and that the wrath of God remains in the one who does not obey the Son??.
According to 1 Peter 4:17, what happens to those who do not obey the Gospel?
And what about John 3:18? What does it mean to be condemned? And how does this relate to having been included?
The Christian Church, Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox...is irreconcilably locked into the notion of a punishing Hell. And if Hell is a reality, there can be no "free gift of salvation." Protestant theology does every acrobatic turn to attempt to reconcile a loving God and a punishing (or redeeming) hell, especially in light of such NT statements "Jesus accomplished it all"..."He died for you," and in the next breath proclaim the horrifying consequence of sin...i.e., Hell. Although William Paul Young and Dr. Kruger come as close as you can get to presenting a depiction of a kind, loving, welcoming God...in the end the entire Church still faces the inherent conflict of a blissful eternity with God (heaven) vs. a horrifying alternative away from God for all eternity. Ephesians 2:8 cannot mean what Protestant theology thinks it means, because the theologians don't know what it means. Forget the Catholics, commit one sin before your next confession and you're screwed anyway. God in His Incarnation has chosen to reveal His nature...but it is a chaotic mess of ideas.
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What do think Kruger and Paul Young about Hell?
How do you interpret John 3:36??, which means that he will not see life and that the wrath of God remains in the one who does not obey the Son??.
According to 1 Peter 4:17, what happens to those who do not obey the Gospel?
And what about John 3:18? What does it mean to be condemned? And how does this relate to having been included?
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Did Jesus build relationship with his disciples just for relationship sake, or did he connect with them because he had clear purposes and outcomes in mind for their lives? He didn’t pursue them merely for relationship, did he?
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Yes! Evangelism was always horrid to me because you were taught to see unbelievers as “projects” and never based in relationship.
Absolutely! Evangelism should have never been taught as a separate thing from us but rather to just BE genuine and loving people.
There is a distinction between the ontological and the existential... All humanity was included (ontologically) via the incarnation... when God became man... our response in faith to that truth does not make it a reality... it acknowledges that reality... that is the existential aspect... how about lets not pit two truths against one another... blessings
What do think Kruger and Paul Young about Hell?
How do you interpret John 3:36??, which means that he will not see life and that the wrath of God remains in the one who does not obey the Son??.
According to 1 Peter 4:17, what happens to those who do not obey the Gospel?
And what about John 3:18? What does it mean to be condemned? And how does this relate to having been included?
Well I understand what they mean but Baxter and Paul were saved with the traditional message of salvation, second D L Moody , Spurgeon and Billy Graham were preaching the wrong message.
For me either one is fine whoever the contact with the person is imperative some one (christian) has to tell the person "they are include" or they need to knoe Christ.
While it is true that salvation of humanity is objectively accomplished in the human beng / Godman Jesus Christ and it is also true that he has bound himself to humanity and vice versa in an indivisible once and for all union and that election is christologically conditioned it is also true that one must subjectively appropriate this. So it is also true that all humanity rejects this objective work. This is a surd but it a living reality for all human beings. That Christ died for the whole world is clear. That all are included in this is also true. What one must know however is the appropriation of truth. Its not automatic. I don't hear this corollary to the first truth in this teaching which is troubling. The gospel is you are loved by God in Christ but also that your rejection of this love has dehumanising and eternal consequences. Sin is real and the new birth is necessary to receive the forgiveness that was given in Christ, the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
Baxter says the gospel isn't telling people to receive Jesus but that Jesus has received them. Unfortunately for Baxter all through the apostles writings and the book of Acts, we see over and over again passages that talk about people "receiving" the Lord, His spirit etc. Pretty hard to ignore Paul asking the Galatians, how did you receive the spirit of God? Or when Paul speaks about himself receiving Jesus or in the book of Acts where the Samaritans received "the word". I could show literally dozens of examples in the NT where salvation is connected to receiving.
My suggestion before anyone buys into Triniterian Theology, is go read the 19 sermons in the book of Acts and see how Peter, Paul and Phillip presented the gospel. Their approach is vastly different to Kruger and Young's.
Charles, what is wrong with presenting the gospel as the apostles and Phillip did in the book of Acts? We have 19 sermons there for us to study. In fact look how Paul reminds the Galatians how they "received" the Spirit of God by faith.
Why is presenting the gospel today any different than how they presented it back in the times of the apostles? Our methods may change and times have but the message has never changed.
I am unable to find any of the apostles present the gospel in the way Baxter teaches.
In Acts 14, read the first few verses and it pretty clear that Paul taught a message that required faith. Believing equals receiving and as we keep reading we can clearly see that not everyone choose to believe.
In Acts 17, we see people "receive" the word aka Jesus.
When Paul gets to Athens he quotes two famous poets one believed in Greek mythology and the other didn't but Paul uses their sayings to open a door that he can use to bring the gospel in through. We are all Gods creation or birthed by God but Paul wasn't insinuating all humanity was born again. Notice Paul explains that in Gods plan, He set it up for people to seek Him and that He was not far off. Paul explains to them that "WE" are in Him and "WE" have our being in HIM. We does not refer to everyone but Paul and those believers who traveled with him. God isn't far off or unreachable to the unbeliever who He has reconciled Himself with but for the believer, they are "IN Christ" and Christ is in them.
Paul understood what it means to be "In Christ", it meant that a person believed the gospel. Mr Krugar seems to think "everyone is in Christ but read Rom 16:7 and Paul teaches that he was not in Christ until he believed.
Ed the Travler ... did not Christ say on the cross, "it is finished" ? Jesus in doing so on the cross, has already received us ALL ! Obviously, we make the final choice to grasp the opportunity, upon personal conviction ! It is not us by THAT choice to accept the invitation, which "saves us" but by CHRIST'S sacrifice ! This is the work of Christ (and not of our selves) that has extended to the world, "grace through faith" ... "and NOT of ourselves" ! All we do is accept it, upon conviction ! If it were not for the process of conversion and salvation being firstly, implemented by God the Father, Jesus Christ enabled to us , via the Holy Spirit ... there would be ZERO salvation even, should we decided to accept something, which does not already exist ! (The process has to be initiated before we can accept it ).
I believe Jesus was speaking about the end of the old covenant when He said , "It is finished". The new covenant did not start until the resurrection.
If "all" are in Christ as you say, than the apostle Paul was rather confused. In Rom 16, he says he was not in Christ until he believed. He points out that others were in Christ b/4 him. Plus Paul teaches that when a person believes they are baptized "into" Christ. Why would the Holy Spirit baptize people into Christ if they are already there? Paul also speaks about God judging those who are outside of Christ. Again if all are
in Christ" as you say, then who is God judging on the outside of Christ.
take a look at the old covenant type and shadows about what it means to be in Christ. Noah's ark, a type of Christ only believers were inside. The brass serpent a type of Christ, onlt those who looked and believed were saved and the Promise land a type of Christ, only believers entered into it and the unbelievers died in the wilderness. If Inclusion was the gospel, all humanity would been in the Ark, all those bit by vipers would have been healed wither they looked and believed or not and finally all of Israel regardless of their unbelief or not would have made it into the promise land. The problem with the doctrine of Inclusion is it isn't seen as a type and shadow of Christ. We know Paul preached the gospel from the old testament and Jesus foretold of Himself and His work from the OT as well.
Ed the Travler I agree Ed. The temple itself was another "type" of how God interacted with man. Sin was a problem that had to be dealt with. Blood was a requirement. The holy place, and the holy of holies had strict rules of engagement with the thick veil co-ordining it "off limits." The Law was introduced in this system by God Himself to show His people and the rest of humanity that there is a problem, and the problem is us. Now in Christ we have access to the Father and can "present ourselves in Christ as those alive from the dead" the veil was torn in two! John 1:9-13 (see esp. 12) says it nicely:
@1The one who is the true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.
@1He came into the very world he created, but the world didn’t recognize him.
@1He came to his own people, and even they REJECTED him.
@1But to all who BELIEVED him and ACCEPTED him, he gave the right to become children of God.
@1They are reborn-not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God.
You can clearly see the requirement of our will to receive Gods gift.
I agree with the general message, but not the tone of it. The judgmental attitude towards those who share the gospel in various settings makes me angry, because I know many personally, including my husband. They care deeply for the people they share the gospel with and that is the reason they do it in the first place - not some commercial interest or whatever other motives you impune on fellow brothers and sisters.
Just rest in christ, you don't have to get offended by these brothers doing the best they know how to preach to others about the goodness of our great God ❤😅😊❤
My husband & I were in this movement for 6 years! Praise The Lord that we saw the damage & the wrong teaching & got out!It is insidious teaching! Completely wrong in the inclusion!Jesus died for the whole Human Race - But we have to choose to be in Christ !!! Ephesians 2 : 1-10
Then you believe that ultimately salvation is up to us?
@@Thomasrice07 God is LOVE and therefore, LOVE does, give us a choice.
No they do not share the Gospel. The Gospel is to repent. And after repenting, believe that Jesus Christ died for you. Live in Christ.