The only thing I'd add is that because of the power and licencing when using APRS on amateur bands your communications need to be unencrypted and open. Whereas Meshtastic on the licence free frequencies can be encrypted. Also, you can open up Meshtastic to be used with more power with an amateur licence. They are all great in their own ways. Great video, thanks!
Excellent video! I am a licensed amateur radio operator in the US, and I have been using APRS since 2014. It's a very good network and highly reliable. I am also interested in LoRa Meshtastic to use with my unlicensed friends and family. Thank you very much for this informative video.
I think the example of using Meshtastic while camping with unlicensed friends and family is the strongest use case. Everything else is kind of disappointing especially compared to APRS which is awesome. I recently saw Motorola offers FRS radios with messaging and position sharing. Talkabout T800. Another option, but potentially more expensive than Meshtastic.
I love APRS. It's a lot of fun to play with and I love that it can assist if cell phones go down. Sending messages, texts and emails over radio is really cool, especially when camping. One big difference between Meshtastic and APRS though is Meshtastic allows you to limit who is a part of your mesh where APRS has to be public.
And many implementations of APRS uses GPS making you easily trackable. Great for search and rescue, not so great when you want secure comms. But it is a great system. Many areas have hobbled the APRS networks taking towers down in the US. Secure, license-free communications is likely to be important for everyone (unfortunately) no matter where you live and APRS is not secure.
@@adamjones8218 Who is going to track you? You can turn the location off on APRS just as you can with Meshtastic. If you really want to hide then Meshtastic isnt the way. Better to be one of billions (cell phone) that transmit on a different frequency and be one of maybe dozens in the area.
I have been researching Meshtastic for about six months via YT videos and web pages. I am NOT a radio/tech guy, but want options for communicating. This is absolutely the BEST and most layman-friendly explanation of Meshtastic I have been able to find. THANK YOU! (new subscriber).
I've been a longtime computer enthusiast and I work in the ICT field, but I've always been more into software than hardware. In recent years, I've developed a passion for electronics and DIY. Thanks also to your videos, at the youthful age of forty, I've decided to get my amateur radio license. Thanks for the great work you do! P.S. One day you should make a video talking about your radio equipment!
Interestingly enough, Meshtastic is preferred for ad hoc communication among hams in many scenarios. For example, at Dayton Hamfest this weekend, even with all the licensed hams, Meshtastic traffic among them is greatly exceeding APRS traffic. One factor is that most devices doing APRS are far more cumbersome for messaging whereas Meshtastic and phone provide an easy and familiar interface.
You can get battery powered bluetooth TNC modems that can be fitted to a cheap radio and then use apps like APRSDroid on the phone as well. Meshtastic is the popular new thing though.
@@sn0ren Lora radios are better because of the modem. use a 500khz channel and spreading spectrum level of 7 and you get decent bandwidth. the modules i'm using for my Lora based (DMR?) HT is capable of switching into FSK mode and i can bump the data rate up to 300,000 baud, where as APRS is 1200 baud. I'm giving a presentation at the end of october to a group of investors in Asia about the product i'm developing. Hopefully it will be able to replace meshtastic as a better mesh network.
You make an excellent case for getting an amateur radio licence as I get more interested in this stuff. Currently I'm learning radio techniques with Meshtastic and have a high up location to put my node. Recently did a two day test running on a USB battery and could see a few other nodes. I'll need to get a solar setup for a more permanent install though. I'm also hoping Meshtastic software can keep developing to handle congestion and routing in larger networks.
Meshtastic is great for getting your feet wet in radio experiments. The software will no doubt improve over time. No system is perfect, each has their own strength and weaknesses which is part of the fun to explore and learn about.
As always, very well made video. The subject of Meshtastic has had me intrigued for some time, and I wasn't even aware of the alternative that you showcased briefly. Godt gået, SnØren ❤
Interesting discussion about Meshtastic and comparison with APRS. The big selling point of Meshtastic for me is that you can choose to use AES256 encryption and private groups. And also that the price for the equipment to set up a few nodes is much lower than for regular Ham radio and APRS. Also as far as I know encryption and private groups on HAM Radio and APRS are as far as I know still impermissible for regular radio-amateurs; except for Law enforcement and with some expensive business licences who are legally allowed to use encryption. That means in reality that you can not expect any privacy using Ham radio and APRS. If my information is correct this means that anyone with the right equipment can listen to every voice communication or read all your text messages.
I don't think the price of an APRS-K cable and a Quansheng radio is much higher than the price of a heltec v3. As for encryption then yes, that is correct, if you need privacy in your messages you will have to use something like Meshtastic. However to me (and a lot of others) the interesting part of these systems are to play around with radio, testing antennas and trying to connect to others, not actually to use them for any real private communication. There are much better alternatives for that. Amateur radio is like hobby fishing. It's fun to try out new lures and techniques but the point isn't to actually be depending on it as your primary food source. However the skills learned will give you insights that could be useful in an emergency situation.
Signal, telegram, etc. If you want to go off grid use something like kouchat and just set up a wifi router. No need to bring unnecessarily complicated RF into the mix and you can do more than just text messages, but also file transfers, etc. Long distance WiFi is fairly trivial to set up, very secure, has much higher bandwidth and is much harder to jam than Meshtastic. Put a "internet in a box" server on the network, with a local copy of wikipedia and other useful knowledge for SHTF scenarios.
@@sn0ren it's a lot harder to set up long distance WiFi in a relatively populated area and get everyone on an encrypted platform easily. On the other hand, if you buy a handful of meshtastic devices (both base stations and standalones with keyboards), some long poles, and a few solar panels, you're up and running in a few minutes. If you get them spaced around well enough, you can really be prepared for a SHTF scenario instead of trying to transfer apps to people after the fact, especially people with iPhones.
Thank you for this well made and informative video. I am deep down the rabbit hole of Meshtastic and you reminded me to take a look at APRS which I had been ignoring !
Great video on Meshtastic. A few of my Amateur Radio club friends and I have been fooling around with Meshtastic but because of terrain we're limited. I'm hoping we can grow the network.
It's worth noting that by default, meshtastic nodes are in CLIENT mode, which doesn't necessarily repeat all packets it hears. It's not well-document, so I'm going off rumors, but the main difference between CLIENT and ROUTER is that CLIENT makes educated guesses about which packets need repeating, while ROUTER repeats everything it hears.
Yup, clients wait based on how strong the signal received was. Strong signal = long wait, weak signal = short wait. That way the weakest recipient rebroadcasts first and the stronger ones see that and know they don't need to repeat and clutter up the air. It's pretty clever!
This is an amazingly informative and well explained video on the meshtastic subject and radio overall. I will be sharing this with friends and family. Thank you!
Good video on the positives and negatives on LoRa. You mentioned APRS being around since the 80s , but the protocol has not evolved much in terms of privacy and encryption. LoRa has been around for few years and its improving rapidly. The power and range of LoRa is correlated with the frequency of choice . If LoRa was setup on the lower frequency you can get more range but you cant have a long antenna on a handheld device Also with LoRa you get on the network in minutes. APRS is way more complex and you need to study to get licensed for weeks sometimes months. Im a licensed Radio operator and I think LoRa fills a gap that that Ham radio does not have and will probably get more people to enrol into Ham radio too and maybe one day we will have a more powerful LoRa that will increase the range and bandwidth of the network.
Great video! Been doing cellular for over 2 decades, LoRa for sensors for the last 7 yrs and agree 100% SMS is not the best use of it, but must confess being a HAM lic'd had no clue or interest in APRS until now - thank you! 🔴
How simple the test for the amateur radio license is seems to vary highly between countries. Here in Germany the amount of things to learn is pretty crazy and it sadly made the hobby much less interesting for me and a couple of friends.
Without knowledge of physics and electronics, it's not straightforward. But here in Italy, if you have a relevant STEM degree (e.g., in computer science or engineering) or equivalent pre-university diplomas, you can be exempted and only take the regulatory exam. I will take it with exemption in June, and studying for an hour or half an hour a day should be feasible. You should check the government's website or the local branches of amateur radio associations, which in Germany should be the DARC, for more information. Have a great day! Tchuss!
In Denmark we have 3 levels of license. The easiest one gives you access to VHF/UHF and is really easy, you just need to know a bit about frequency allocations and the phonetic alphabet. If you want access to HF as well it takes a bit of studying, but the tests are multiple choice and you can go through the old tests and try and remember the answers, as lots of them are reused. The local ham clubs usually hold free courses too.
@@sn0renThat's almost identical to how it works here in the US with three levels. In addition to VHF/UHF/microwave, the entry level license (Technician) also gives minor privilege on a small portion of HF for CW also. Very few Technicians use this privilege.
If you *don't* have a relevant degree, what is the process? Here in the US you still just have to take an exam, degree or not, it's like 35 questions for the tech license I think. I'm assuming it's much harder wherever you are. Are there hour requirements? @@guidovicino
Some of our points about Meshtastic are valid, but I think your missing the point of It. Its really designed for small groups as the max nodes supported is pretty small. Think emergency communications. Sure, you could do this with APRS, but that requires a license, has no encryption, requires more power, more batteries and a much larger footprint if your trying to stay low-profile. I agree that Meshtastic is more of a local area mesh network, and APRS is at its best in larger metro areas where the added xmit power (5W and up) can really reach out. Then add mobile APRS to this and its pretty powerful. But again, no encryption. Every message is available for anyone to read. This is not an option for a lot of use cases.
I think for emergency communications encryption isnt the #1 priority. If something happens and you need help, wouldn't you rather everybody who can hear you know you need help or just one two friends who might be napping at that time?
Some of us in the area dug out our 1980's Kantronics KPC-3 packet modems and put them back on the air again. They still work great and have built in node and mailbox as well as can be used for live 1200 baud keyboard to keyboard. On 2 meters it is easy to go 100 miles or more with just a node or two in between. But yes I remember way back when packet was popular that if the band got too active and there were " hidden transmitters" stations that couldn't hear each other , the stronger stations took over and lots of packet don't get through. The positive is it is 100% error free but the negative is that a station will keep trying and trying to repeat packets cluttering up the radio spectrum. But if there was a backbone link on different frequency that helped. Aprs was amazing to me when I first tried it and worked very good. But then some people had to get their 7 hops in or send a packet ever minute and that congested up the network too. Anyway now with our old fashioned regular packet network up , there is hardly anyone using it so never any problem getting through to your ham radio friends ! I just got my Lora boards the other day and am learning how to use it - but might be a bit of letdown in this rural area where no one else uses it .
The downside to APRS is the HAM license requirement. As where LoRa can be experimented with by us unlicensed plebs, lol. Now that being said, APRS, by virtue of its design, is FAR more capable. And.. I think i'm going to have to end up getting a HAM license at some point. My mother got hers back in.. 1990 I think? So I've been in and around the space for at least part of my early life.
That hairy dude in the field in the opening kind of looked like a -sasquatch- Sasquach. I wonder if he can talk? I guess so, if he's repeating messages. 😆 As mentioned, I think there's a place for both Meshtastic and APRS. I really like the idea of having a private and encrypted communications channel for just my area with Meshtastic, and the advantages of APRS should be obvious. Regardless, the way this crazy world is going I believe that backup forms of communication are almost a necessity, just like having some extra food and emergency equipment and supplies on-hand. I'm sure some people probably believe that's being paranoid, however. People really should get their Ham license, if they haven't. When I got mine over 35 years ago you still had to know Morse Code. It was only 5 words-per-minute for a Novice Class License, but it was still enough to turn most people off from getting a license. It's now so easy most people could probably do it in a few days, max. Actually, learning Morse Code is probably much easier than most people would probably believe. From knowing no code, I was ready to take my Novice test in probably about a week. Although it was like (2) weeks before I could test with a local Amateur Radio club. Also, if you're in the US, the FCC publishes all of the test(s) questions and answers, so if you just want to get a copy/book, just read through and remember the right answers, you wouldn't be the first. Although, it's much more rewarding (and beneficial) to actually learn the material. If you choose the former option, some people recommend getting a book, highlighting the correct answers, and then repeatedly read through the questions and *ONLY* the correct answers. A great Meshtastic (and APRS) video. Thank you.
I would love to see an amateur version of a spread spectrum burst radio transmission protocol like the bearcom are using. Given the current problems in the world it would be great to have something that is difficult to pinpoint in an adversarial situation...
FT8 is currently the most popular digital mode in the ham radio world and it’s extremely efficient at transferring tiny amounts of data around the globe. It can detect signals way below the noise floor.
There is also 802.11ah wifi, the teledatics TD-XPAH board seems like the most interesting option, but it isn't allowed in most of europe because of the ISM band it uses. They seem to be gearing up to make one with LoRa and HaLow swappable modules soon too.
Hey ! Loved the video ! Really good for explaining the basics, would have added a part around security, have you done a video about it already ? Like pros and cons, best encryptions, etc.. Thanks !
Just discovered your channel. This video is excellent! Well produced and informative. As an amateur radio operator, I was an avid user of APRS - both mobile and portable (when hiking) up until about 15 years ago. I’ve been thinking about getting into Meshtastic recently, but your video really drove home the fact that we amateur radio operators already have APRS! Do you think the recent interest in Meshtastic could resurrect interest in APRS in the amateur community? Here in Central Ontario Canada, it seems the APRS network is nowhere near as robust as it was 10 to 15 years ago (e.g.: fewer digipeaters).
The APRS network is quite robust where I live - but yes I think generally the interest in stuff like Fipper Zero, HackRF and Meshtastic could bring a new generation to amateur radio, including APRS. Amateur radios biggest problem is that people don't know about it and don't know what they are missing out on. I've talked to people at maker spaces that clearly would find amateur radio interesting, but also clearly would have found the knowledge really useful for their projects when working with wireless communication. For most people wireless technology is just a black box of magic, which is weird when they know plenty about all the other parts of a robot build, for instance.
@@sn0renI would say the real issue to the requirement of having to get a license, what needs to happen is that instead of having to get a licence you would just have to fill in a simple form as a lot of the test seems unnecessary
So, does APRS on a Quansheng TX more distance than or have benefits over using the messenger function of the Kamilsss FW for direct person to person comms, not using a digipeater, etc? Thanks!
How can I communicate with my other people during hikes, when the radio signals get blocked by trees, hills and mountains? Do I have to inflate a baloon to make this work? 😀
Can I program the Quansheng UV-K5 to keep within the legal limits? There are a few stories, it may not be within EU standards. Is this also your experience that it can't be used with -60dB, only stronger? Very interesting video! Thanks!
APRS is cool and I used it before but the license requirement is a big damper if I want to communicate with my family. Also Meshtastic/LoRa allows for encryption which APRS does not.
I’m currently playing with Meshtastic while studying for my HAM, the big draw to me for Meshtastic is the ability to legally encrypt messages. If I could use APRS with encryption I would likely do that.
I installed the new gui few days ago and can't go back anymore. Looks so nice! Here's the link for development build tutorial if someone wants to try it out: ua-cam.com/video/I2g5vr_GtbA/v-deo.html Have you guys tried the T-Deck Plus? Is it good? Looks like it has internal antenna?
My main issue with Meshtastic (and LoRaWAN) is the complexity of the code base as they try to cover every possible use case, leading to a massive amount of code which is harder to use and raises the bar on hardware requirements. For my FreedomText project I ended up making my own protocol which is as simple as can be for its specific use case. APRS seems like a good alternative, but the licensing requirements for transmitting would be problematic for general use with friend and kids during outdoors activities.
Having purchased one and had it switched on continuously for some time, I can’t see that the whole idea definitely depends on lots of other users and nodes. My mesh map is completely empty, even when going up hills I still see no sign of activity on the mesh map. So therefore I’d say it’s area dependent. Some areas Meshtastic will be great, and others nothing. Unless things change in time and more nodes exist, the idea of off grid comms with this system is a joke as the range of these things is tiny due to the frequency being line of sight and bigger antennas don’t necessarily improve reception as much as many will believe. I feel as if I have a cell phone before the infrastructure it requires exists yet.
As someone in an area with very little activity, sometimes you have to take the initiative to set up a prominent repeater node or two. It's possible other people have tried in your area but also didn't see anything, therefore giving up entirely. I set up one on top of a hill and after a while, I noticed a few other nodes popping up, and often get random nodes of people traveling through the area.
@@ruprecht9997 I was referring to the map in the meshtastic website. If that is true, then maybe there are nodes near me. I guess the only way to truly know is to run my own node and see if there's anyone out there 😂
The maps for Meshtastic dont seem to be the most accurate, even Liam Cottles. And you also have nodes out their that people want to keep hidden for whatever reason. Luckily the devices are cheap enough were you can purchase one and see if its for you without breaking the bank.
Yes there are LoRa modules that run at 433 MHz, which is also an ISM band in europe, however the power output limits are lower. 433 MHz is also a amateur radio band, and you can run Meshtastic in amateur radio mode at 433 MHz and get full power output and no duty cycle limitations. But at that point you might as well run APRS - which you can also do cross band with the LoRa modules.
. Cant complained about the range, from.my balkony in second floor i get at least 10km of range directly, sometimes up to 50km if conditions are perfect. I can sometimes reach my second meshtastic device directly, that is about 20km away and has a few trees and a Hill in between. I tried using it on a nerby mountain, one device on the mountain, one at home in the balkony and one at my parents house, 20km are no problem then. A friend has one mounted on a mountain with a 50w solar panel (because of winter he needs a lot more solar power ), He reach es nodes 100km away with just a simple yagi antenna
LoRa is using the P sub band of ISM in Europe which is 869.4 MHz - 869.65 MHz with a legal max power output of 500 mW and a 10% duty cycle from type approved, narrow band devices. If you want to transmit fm voice you can use the PMR frequencies with type approved radios with a fixed antenna, that band is also 500 mW max output.
excellent video. but you missed a critical feature of meshtastic vs APRS. Meshtastic (ISM) allows encryption. Anything on Ham radio MUST be unencrypted. not an issue for most people tbh. but it is important to know that anything you send on APRS is readable by anyone. if you send your GPS, anyone who can receive the signal will be able to see it. if any of your digipeters connect to the Internet, then anyone with internet can see your messages and GPS that you provide.
"Anything on Ham radio MUST be unencrypted." There's some notable exceptions around remote control, which could reasonably be stretched to include remote admin of data-collection IOT devices.
The range is line of sight. The longest range record for Meshtastic is 254 km. But that requires both parties to be very high up and have good antennas. If you are down by the ground and surrounded by large buildings, the range can be as low as 100 meters or less. Height is might.
I think the T deck typing issue is hardware related and cant be mitigated or resolved by the Meshtastic devs. Something about the microcontroller being single threaded I believe.
@@sn0ren Well that firmware may not have as much to do on the UI loop. I am pretty sure the dev's said there was not much they could do in this case, due to single threading.
No competition. Each serves a different purpose. I have done APRS around a thousand miles miles with an attic antenna on 30m. HF APRS doesnt need the same infrastructure in place for long ranges.
This is only about the 4t time i even heard the name of this gadget. So if a few ppl was camping or working in the desert or Forrest. Each group in theory could use a helium balloon to lift a node to about 50 75 meters possibly teathered by a kite string with a possibility 30 gauge enameled copper wire for grunding and possibly mounting te antenna to. Maybe use hydrogen in the balloon, produced from water and a solar panel. With say 5+ groups of 2-4+ ppl. Say 2-5 miles apart. This could allow basic communication between them each group having a node close by (roughly 150' high) possibly a central node in a Forrest location with tall trees. They should have good comms . Especially in a desert location as long as the nodes can see each other, and the people on the ground can see a node. I can see this being awsome with some improvements relax regulations slightly, with a 8-10 watt Maximum (and 2watt buffer) an a slight change to transmission protocol. Have a short term memory to store messages if they can't be instantly transitted. Have the messages lined up like the start of a race , one goes, a few seconds later the next, then a few seconds then another, possibly receive messages before transmitting the next. Maybe a received confirmation signal. Then the next transmission to prevent lost messages and congestion. Maybe divide into channels by the frequency of the message how fast the message itself is sent. Like talking faster and slower. Wth the same volume. Say the two channels. One is one word/sec. Two is 2 word's/sec. Actually much faster with not such large difference in rate, but the system programed to seperatethe two. And what abut transmission over CB radio frequency?? Sorry to ramble, havea awesome day!
The fact that there are problems with meshtastic are highly understated here even though this is one of the rare videos that does indicate that there are problems. It is nothing more than a development toy that should not be used for anything other than that. It is unstable, unreliable, not robust, and should never be deployed in any kind of natural/man-made disaster, SHTF scenario, or used in any mission critical role - despite what the proponents of meshtastic or prepper fantasists will tell you.
One APRS issue to mention however, no encryption or even anonymity is allowed, as with any amateur radio tech. Meshtastic in contrast can be anonymous and/or encrypted, so much better suited for privacy and personal communication!
as a nerd I think this is very fun. as a user of electronics during emergencies this Meshsastic thing is very useless. This isn't off-grid, is just a decentralized private grid.
Doesn't a license free 2 watt radio can communicate further than this device? Although it would be nice if all my neighbors would spontaneously decide to get this device and get a mesh going around my area :)
Finished it. Skipped the setup but there’s had some legit points about functionality post set up. Especially with the Lilygo T-Deck. But that’s a dev board in its infancy. That said, you COMPLETELY failed to mention encryption and the lack there of within APRS and HAM 📻 in general. The main feature of Meshtastic off grid low powered long range encrypted comms. Failing to mention this point in contrast to APRS is completely disingenuous.
The video was getting a bit long so I had to skip some parts, so I chose to skip the part that interests me the least. I'm not interested in encrypted communication, there are plenty better ways of doing that without having to resort to RF. My interest is in experimenting with RF, antennas and modulations and I think that's also the case for a lot of people that are getting started with Meshtastic. And for them I think amateur radio can offer even more similar fun things to play with.
The only thing I'd add is that because of the power and licencing when using APRS on amateur bands your communications need to be unencrypted and open. Whereas Meshtastic on the licence free frequencies can be encrypted. Also, you can open up Meshtastic to be used with more power with an amateur licence. They are all great in their own ways. Great video, thanks!
Once you add your Amateur Callsign to Meshtastic for more power, you lose the ability to encrypt it
Good comment full of sense
True !
@@HamRadio2
@@HamRadio2 well can't you still do plain ol PGP encryption on the text? That way the text itself is unencrypted. Isn't that the point of PGP kinda?
@@vladprykhodko5016 It is illegal to encrypt the message by any means if you are transmitting with a license
This is one of the best videos I’ve seen on LoRa and Meshtastic. And you threw in APRS to boot! Excellent job sir. KE8VIY.
This says it all. Great video. Demonstrates the Meshtastic gateway drug to amateur radio and helps grow the hobby without being overwhelming.
Great video. The realities of Meshtastic was part of the reason I studied and got my amateur license. APRS is fantastic and it’s everywhere.
Excellent video! I am a licensed amateur radio operator in the US, and I have been using APRS since 2014. It's a very good network and highly reliable. I am also interested in LoRa Meshtastic to use with my unlicensed friends and family. Thank you very much for this informative video.
I think the example of using Meshtastic while camping with unlicensed friends and family is the strongest use case. Everything else is kind of disappointing especially compared to APRS which is awesome. I recently saw Motorola offers FRS radios with messaging and position sharing. Talkabout T800. Another option, but potentially more expensive than Meshtastic.
I love APRS. It's a lot of fun to play with and I love that it can assist if cell phones go down. Sending messages, texts and emails over radio is really cool, especially when camping. One big difference between Meshtastic and APRS though is Meshtastic allows you to limit who is a part of your mesh where APRS has to be public.
And many implementations of APRS uses GPS making you easily trackable. Great for search and rescue, not so great when you want secure comms. But it is a great system. Many areas have hobbled the APRS networks taking towers down in the US. Secure, license-free communications is likely to be important for everyone (unfortunately) no matter where you live and APRS is not secure.
@@adamjones8218 Who is going to track you? You can turn the location off on APRS just as you can with Meshtastic.
If you really want to hide then Meshtastic isnt the way. Better to be one of billions (cell phone) that transmit on a different frequency and be one of maybe dozens in the area.
I have been researching Meshtastic for about six months via YT videos and web pages. I am NOT a radio/tech guy, but want options for communicating. This is absolutely the BEST and most layman-friendly explanation of Meshtastic I have been able to find. THANK YOU! (new subscriber).
Thanks 🤘
I've been a longtime computer enthusiast and I work in the ICT field, but I've always been more into software than hardware. In recent years, I've developed a passion for electronics and DIY. Thanks also to your videos, at the youthful age of forty, I've decided to get my amateur radio license. Thanks for the great work you do!
P.S. One day you should make a video talking about your radio equipment!
This is the best overview of Meshtastic I have seen. Thanks very much.
Interestingly enough, Meshtastic is preferred for ad hoc communication among hams in many scenarios. For example, at Dayton Hamfest this weekend, even with all the licensed hams, Meshtastic traffic among them is greatly exceeding APRS traffic. One factor is that most devices doing APRS are far more cumbersome for messaging whereas Meshtastic and phone provide an easy and familiar interface.
You can get battery powered bluetooth TNC modems that can be fitted to a cheap radio and then use apps like APRSDroid on the phone as well. Meshtastic is the popular new thing though.
@@sn0ren Lora radios are better because of the modem. use a 500khz channel and spreading spectrum level of 7 and you get decent bandwidth. the modules i'm using for my Lora based (DMR?) HT is capable of switching into FSK mode and i can bump the data rate up to 300,000 baud, where as APRS is 1200 baud. I'm giving a presentation at the end of october to a group of investors in Asia about the product i'm developing. Hopefully it will be able to replace meshtastic as a better mesh network.
You make an excellent case for getting an amateur radio licence as I get more interested in this stuff.
Currently I'm learning radio techniques with Meshtastic and have a high up location to put my node. Recently did a two day test running on a USB battery and could see a few other nodes. I'll need to get a solar setup for a more permanent install though.
I'm also hoping Meshtastic software can keep developing to handle congestion and routing in larger networks.
Meshtastic is great for getting your feet wet in radio experiments. The software will no doubt improve over time. No system is perfect, each has their own strength and weaknesses which is part of the fun to explore and learn about.
Wow. THIS one, I needed 1Y ago. Every mesht channel need this kind of video. well Exactly this video. perfect!
Another great video. Another comment just to promote your hard work within UA-cam algorithms. Love it, keep this going!
Nice video 😁 theres now LoRa APRS too!
Thanks 🙏 we are blessed with lots of fun things to play with 😀
As always, very well made video.
The subject of Meshtastic has had me intrigued for some time, and I wasn't even aware of the alternative that you showcased briefly.
Godt gået, SnØren ❤
oh wow. this one turned out to be a very great video about finding motivation to get a ham radio licence!! Well done!
Interesting discussion about Meshtastic and comparison with APRS. The big selling point of Meshtastic for me is that you can choose to use AES256 encryption and private groups.
And also that the price for the equipment to set up a few nodes is much lower than for regular Ham radio and APRS. Also as far as I know encryption and private groups on HAM Radio and APRS are as far as I know still impermissible for regular radio-amateurs; except for Law enforcement and with some expensive business licences who are legally allowed to use encryption.
That means in reality that you can not expect any privacy using Ham radio and APRS. If my information is correct this means that anyone with the right equipment can listen to every voice communication or read all your text messages.
I don't think the price of an APRS-K cable and a Quansheng radio is much higher than the price of a heltec v3. As for encryption then yes, that is correct, if you need privacy in your messages you will have to use something like Meshtastic. However to me (and a lot of others) the interesting part of these systems are to play around with radio, testing antennas and trying to connect to others, not actually to use them for any real private communication. There are much better alternatives for that. Amateur radio is like hobby fishing. It's fun to try out new lures and techniques but the point isn't to actually be depending on it as your primary food source. However the skills learned will give you insights that could be useful in an emergency situation.
@@sn0ren What alternatives are there for cheap, easy, encrypted communication that do not require a license?
Signal, telegram, etc. If you want to go off grid use something like kouchat and just set up a wifi router. No need to bring unnecessarily complicated RF into the mix and you can do more than just text messages, but also file transfers, etc. Long distance WiFi is fairly trivial to set up, very secure, has much higher bandwidth and is much harder to jam than Meshtastic. Put a "internet in a box" server on the network, with a local copy of wikipedia and other useful knowledge for SHTF scenarios.
@@sn0ren it's a lot harder to set up long distance WiFi in a relatively populated area and get everyone on an encrypted platform easily.
On the other hand, if you buy a handful of meshtastic devices (both base stations and standalones with keyboards), some long poles, and a few solar panels, you're up and running in a few minutes. If you get them spaced around well enough, you can really be prepared for a SHTF scenario instead of trying to transfer apps to people after the fact, especially people with iPhones.
@@a11aaa11a You still need apps on the phones - the meshtastic app.
Thank you for this educational and straightforward overview. I appreciate the time you’ve invested in helping make me smarter & more aware.
Thank you for this well made and informative video. I am deep down the rabbit hole of Meshtastic and you reminded me to take a look at APRS which I had been ignoring !
Great video on Meshtastic. A few of my Amateur Radio club friends and I have been fooling around with Meshtastic but because of terrain we're limited. I'm hoping we can grow the network.
It's worth noting that by default, meshtastic nodes are in CLIENT mode, which doesn't necessarily repeat all packets it hears. It's not well-document, so I'm going off rumors, but the main difference between CLIENT and ROUTER is that CLIENT makes educated guesses about which packets need repeating, while ROUTER repeats everything it hears.
Yup, clients wait based on how strong the signal received was. Strong signal = long wait, weak signal = short wait. That way the weakest recipient rebroadcasts first and the stronger ones see that and know they don't need to repeat and clutter up the air. It's pretty clever!
Outstanding video, and a great explanation of the pros, cons, and amateur radio options! KC7ZDM here in the USA!
This is an amazingly informative and well explained video on the meshtastic subject and radio overall.
I will be sharing this with friends and family. Thank you!
Det er fantastisk du har tid til at udforske og fremlægge alle de radio projekter jeg er interesseret i, men ikke selv har tiden til at undersøge :D
Good video on the positives and negatives on LoRa. You mentioned APRS being around since the 80s , but the protocol has not evolved much in terms of privacy and encryption. LoRa has been around for few years and its improving rapidly. The power and range of LoRa is correlated with the frequency of choice . If LoRa was setup on the lower frequency you can get more range but you cant have a long antenna on a handheld device Also with LoRa you get on the network in minutes. APRS is way more complex and you need to study to get licensed for weeks sometimes months. Im a licensed Radio operator and I think LoRa fills a gap that that Ham radio does not have and will probably get more people to enrol into Ham radio too and maybe one day we will have a more powerful LoRa that will increase the range and bandwidth of the network.
wow, more stuff I did not know. I see another rabbit hole I will be going down soon
Great video! Been doing cellular for over 2 decades, LoRa for sensors for the last 7 yrs and agree 100% SMS is not the best use of it, but must confess being a HAM lic'd had no clue or interest in APRS until now - thank you! 🔴
How simple the test for the amateur radio license is seems to vary highly between countries. Here in Germany the amount of things to learn is pretty crazy and it sadly made the hobby much less interesting for me and a couple of friends.
Without knowledge of physics and electronics, it's not straightforward. But here in Italy, if you have a relevant STEM degree (e.g., in computer science or engineering) or equivalent pre-university diplomas, you can be exempted and only take the regulatory exam. I will take it with exemption in June, and studying for an hour or half an hour a day should be feasible. You should check the government's website or the local branches of amateur radio associations, which in Germany should be the DARC, for more information. Have a great day! Tchuss!
In Denmark we have 3 levels of license. The easiest one gives you access to VHF/UHF and is really easy, you just need to know a bit about frequency allocations and the phonetic alphabet. If you want access to HF as well it takes a bit of studying, but the tests are multiple choice and you can go through the old tests and try and remember the answers, as lots of them are reused. The local ham clubs usually hold free courses too.
@@sn0renThat's almost identical to how it works here in the US with three levels.
In addition to VHF/UHF/microwave, the entry level license (Technician) also gives minor privilege on a small portion of HF for CW also. Very few Technicians use this privilege.
@@bowlsallbroken you can use ssb voice in a small portion of 10 meters also
If you *don't* have a relevant degree, what is the process? Here in the US you still just have to take an exam, degree or not, it's like 35 questions for the tech license I think. I'm assuming it's much harder wherever you are. Are there hour requirements? @@guidovicino
Very interesting...would you consider making a tutorial of APRS set up on the Quangsheng radio?
Yes i waiting for Aprs too
Some of our points about Meshtastic are valid, but I think your missing the point of It. Its really designed for small groups as the max nodes supported is pretty small. Think emergency communications. Sure, you could do this with APRS, but that requires a license, has no encryption, requires more power, more batteries and a much larger footprint if your trying to stay low-profile.
I agree that Meshtastic is more of a local area mesh network, and APRS is at its best in larger metro areas where the added xmit power (5W and up) can really reach out. Then add mobile APRS to this and its pretty powerful. But again, no encryption. Every message is available for anyone to read. This is not an option for a lot of use cases.
I think for emergency communications encryption isnt the #1 priority. If something happens and you need help, wouldn't you rather everybody who can hear you know you need help or just one two friends who might be napping at that time?
Don’t forget about a moon bounce. Probably my favorite thing to demonstrate.
Some of us in the area dug out our 1980's Kantronics KPC-3 packet modems and put them back on the air again. They still work great and have built in node and mailbox as well as can be used for live 1200 baud keyboard to keyboard. On 2 meters it is easy to go 100 miles or more with just a node or two in between. But yes I remember way back when packet was popular that if the band got too active and there were " hidden transmitters" stations that couldn't hear each other , the stronger stations took over and lots of packet don't get through. The positive is it is 100% error free but the negative is that a station will keep trying and trying to repeat packets cluttering up the radio spectrum. But if there was a backbone link on different frequency that helped. Aprs was amazing to me when I first tried it and worked very good. But then some people had to get their 7 hops in or send a packet ever minute and that congested up the network too. Anyway now with our old fashioned regular packet network up , there is hardly anyone using it so never any problem getting through to your ham radio friends ! I just got my Lora boards the other day and am learning how to use it - but might be a bit of letdown in this rural area where no one else uses it .
Snoren is a great creator I enjoy your content keep it up
A compelling argument in favour of APRS. I really would like to get an AIOC cable here in Aus.
The downside to APRS is the HAM license requirement. As where LoRa can be experimented with by us unlicensed plebs, lol. Now that being said, APRS, by virtue of its design, is FAR more capable. And.. I think i'm going to have to end up getting a HAM license at some point. My mother got hers back in.. 1990 I think? So I've been in and around the space for at least part of my early life.
Excellent video! Thank you for creating and sharing! ❤
So why not both? APRS over LoRa also gains popularity!
That hairy dude in the field in the opening kind of looked like a -sasquatch- Sasquach. I wonder if he can talk? I guess so, if he's repeating messages. 😆
As mentioned, I think there's a place for both Meshtastic and APRS. I really like the idea of having a private and encrypted communications channel for just my area with Meshtastic, and the advantages of APRS should be obvious. Regardless, the way this crazy world is going I believe that backup forms of communication are almost a necessity, just like having some extra food and emergency equipment and supplies on-hand. I'm sure some people probably believe that's being paranoid, however.
People really should get their Ham license, if they haven't. When I got mine over 35 years ago you still had to know Morse Code. It was only 5 words-per-minute for a Novice Class License, but it was still enough to turn most people off from getting a license. It's now so easy most people could probably do it in a few days, max. Actually, learning Morse Code is probably much easier than most people would probably believe. From knowing no code, I was ready to take my Novice test in probably about a week. Although it was like (2) weeks before I could test with a local Amateur Radio club.
Also, if you're in the US, the FCC publishes all of the test(s) questions and answers, so if you just want to get a copy/book, just read through and remember the right answers, you wouldn't be the first. Although, it's much more rewarding (and beneficial) to actually learn the material. If you choose the former option, some people recommend getting a book, highlighting the correct answers, and then repeatedly read through the questions and *ONLY* the correct answers.
A great Meshtastic (and APRS) video. Thank you.
I would love to see an amateur version of a spread spectrum burst radio transmission protocol like the bearcom are using. Given the current problems in the world it would be great to have something that is difficult to pinpoint in an adversarial situation...
FT8 is currently the most popular digital mode in the ham radio world and it’s extremely efficient at transferring tiny amounts of data around the globe. It can detect signals way below the noise floor.
There is also 802.11ah wifi, the teledatics TD-XPAH board seems like the most interesting option, but it isn't allowed in most of europe because of the ISM band it uses. They seem to be gearing up to make one with LoRa and HaLow swappable modules soon too.
T-Deck has an ongoing development branch working on T-deck specifically. I am following it with a lot of interest
This was… friggin excellent!
Thank you!!!
Hey ! Loved the video ! Really good for explaining the basics, would have added a part around security, have you done a video about it already ? Like pros and cons, best encryptions, etc.. Thanks !
Great video! Thank you for this fine effort!
2 minutes in and you're still going over what meshtastic is. I know what it is, that's why I clicked on the video!
Most people are not as clever as you 😉
Just discovered your channel. This video is excellent! Well produced and informative. As an amateur radio operator, I was an avid user of APRS - both mobile and portable (when hiking) up until about 15 years ago. I’ve been thinking about getting into Meshtastic recently, but your video really drove home the fact that we amateur radio operators already have APRS! Do you think the recent interest in Meshtastic could resurrect interest in APRS in the amateur community? Here in Central Ontario Canada, it seems the APRS network is nowhere near as robust as it was 10 to 15 years ago (e.g.: fewer digipeaters).
The APRS network is quite robust where I live - but yes I think generally the interest in stuff like Fipper Zero, HackRF and Meshtastic could bring a new generation to amateur radio, including APRS. Amateur radios biggest problem is that people don't know about it and don't know what they are missing out on. I've talked to people at maker spaces that clearly would find amateur radio interesting, but also clearly would have found the knowledge really useful for their projects when working with wireless communication. For most people wireless technology is just a black box of magic, which is weird when they know plenty about all the other parts of a robot build, for instance.
@@sn0renI would say the real issue to the requirement of having to get a license, what needs to happen is that instead of having to get a licence you would just have to fill in a simple form as a lot of the test seems unnecessary
In the US, the frequency is 915mhz, with no duty cycle limits. The max power here is also 1W without a license.
So, does APRS on a Quansheng TX more distance than or have benefits over using the messenger function of the Kamilsss FW for direct person to person comms, not using a digipeater, etc? Thanks!
Great video, thank you !
another great video thank you!
Would it be beneficial for APRS to adopt a modern chirp modulation? This would improve range and reduce required power.
thx, great video! tip: lower the volume of the background music when you reading the script
Thank you very much.
How can I communicate with my other people during hikes, when the radio signals get blocked by trees, hills and mountains? Do I have to inflate a baloon to make this work? 😀
Placing a node high up that everyone has line of sight with would solve it, yes.
Some people have used drones as a temporary measure to get a node up high.
Can I program the Quansheng UV-K5 to keep within the legal limits? There are a few stories, it may not be within EU standards. Is this also your experience that it can't be used with -60dB, only stronger? Very interesting video! Thanks!
Excellent, thank you.
Meshtastic can be encrypted. Thats half the reason I like it.
My PC isnt able to recognise the device on the Com Ports. Any idea why?
What happens to a message received on your node if you don't have the app open at the time?
It’s save on the node and your app is updated once you connect again.
@@sn0ren Thats good to know! I'm guessing there are only so many messages a node can store and that depends on the type of node
Yes i think it stores 30 messages
@@sn0ren Thank you so much for taking the time to reply! I appreciate it. Good luck with the channel!
Does APRS secure with encryption like Meshtastic?
No. Cannot be encrypted by regulation.
one big problem: can i send encrypted information over aprs?
No encryption allowed on HAM communication
The thing is, APRS is good but it’s simply not as convenient as meshtastic.
APRS is cool and I used it before but the license requirement is a big damper if I want to communicate with my family. Also Meshtastic/LoRa allows for encryption which APRS does not.
Very informative, thank you
I’m currently playing with Meshtastic while studying for my HAM, the big draw to me for Meshtastic is the ability to legally encrypt messages. If I could use APRS with encryption I would likely do that.
with the release of the T-Deck Plus and the new software are you more bullish on Meshtastic now?
I installed the new gui few days ago and can't go back anymore. Looks so nice! Here's the link for development build tutorial if someone wants to try it out: ua-cam.com/video/I2g5vr_GtbA/v-deo.html Have you guys tried the T-Deck Plus? Is it good? Looks like it has internal antenna?
My main issue with Meshtastic (and LoRaWAN) is the complexity of the code base as they try to cover every possible use case, leading to a massive amount of code which is harder to use and raises the bar on hardware requirements. For my FreedomText project I ended up making my own protocol which is as simple as can be for its specific use case. APRS seems like a good alternative, but the licensing requirements for transmitting would be problematic for general use with friend and kids during outdoors activities.
Hey sn0ren , could u share where I could get your splash wallpaper .bmp file because I’m in love with it and I wanna add it to my hackrf
It’s on the mayhem discord 🤘
Having purchased one and had it switched on continuously for some time, I can’t see that the whole idea definitely depends on lots of other users and nodes. My mesh map is completely empty, even when going up hills I still see no sign of activity on the mesh map.
So therefore I’d say it’s area dependent. Some areas Meshtastic will be great, and others nothing.
Unless things change in time and more nodes exist, the idea of off grid comms with this system is a joke as the range of these things is tiny due to the frequency being line of sight and bigger antennas don’t necessarily improve reception as much as many will believe.
I feel as if I have a cell phone before the infrastructure it requires exists yet.
As someone in an area with very little activity, sometimes you have to take the initiative to set up a prominent repeater node or two. It's possible other people have tried in your area but also didn't see anything, therefore giving up entirely. I set up one on top of a hill and after a while, I noticed a few other nodes popping up, and often get random nodes of people traveling through the area.
Oh man ☹️ I checked both the meshtastic and aprs maps in my area and there are no nodes at all in my whole country 😭😭😭
You can be the first to get it started 🙏
Meshtastic doesn't by default interact with the internet, so there is no automatic way of creating such maps.
@@ruprecht9997 I was referring to the map in the meshtastic website. If that is true, then maybe there are nodes near me.
I guess the only way to truly know is to run my own node and see if there's anyone out there 😂
Usually those maps either rely on a node that is connected through MQTT or sometimes self reported nodes
The maps for Meshtastic dont seem to be the most accurate, even Liam Cottles. And you also have nodes out their that people want to keep hidden for whatever reason. Luckily the devices are cheap enough were you can purchase one and see if its for you without breaking the bank.
Can you run meshtastic on 433Mhz or another band lower than 868Mhz to get longer range?
Yes there are LoRa modules that run at 433 MHz, which is also an ISM band in europe, however the power output limits are lower. 433 MHz is also a amateur radio band, and you can run Meshtastic in amateur radio mode at 433 MHz and get full power output and no duty cycle limitations. But at that point you might as well run APRS - which you can also do cross band with the LoRa modules.
APRS use on HT's is not ideal due to the limited keyspace on the radio's face. A smartphone is highly recommended.
. Cant complained about the range, from.my balkony in second floor i get at least 10km of range directly, sometimes up to 50km if conditions are perfect.
I can sometimes reach my second meshtastic device directly, that is about 20km away and has a few trees and a Hill in between.
I tried using it on a nerby mountain, one device on the mountain, one at home in the balkony and one at my parents house, 20km are no problem then.
A friend has one mounted on a mountain with a 50w solar panel (because of winter he needs a lot more solar power ), He reach es nodes 100km away with just a simple yagi antenna
So it's APRS for messaging?
The T-Deck has potential. I hope they make it better. Keyboard leaves a lot to be desired.
is it legal to send 0,5 watt in Denmark and ond wich bands.
LoRa is using the P sub band of ISM in Europe which is 869.4 MHz - 869.65 MHz with a legal max power output of 500 mW and a 10% duty cycle from type approved, narrow band devices. If you want to transmit fm voice you can use the PMR frequencies with type approved radios with a fixed antenna, that band is also 500 mW max output.
What is the best aprs firmware for the quansheng radio?
Search for KD8CEC
excellent video. but you missed a critical feature of meshtastic vs APRS. Meshtastic (ISM) allows encryption. Anything on Ham radio MUST be unencrypted. not an issue for most people tbh. but it is important to know that anything you send on APRS is readable by anyone. if you send your GPS, anyone who can receive the signal will be able to see it. if any of your digipeters connect to the Internet, then anyone with internet can see your messages and GPS that you provide.
"Anything on Ham radio MUST be unencrypted." There's some notable exceptions around remote control, which could reasonably be stretched to include remote admin of data-collection IOT devices.
What is the max range
The range is line of sight. The longest range record for Meshtastic is 254 km. But that requires both parties to be very high up and have good antennas. If you are down by the ground and surrounded by large buildings, the range can be as low as 100 meters or less. Height is might.
Does APRS have encryption and if it does, how good?
No.
This possible with a flipper?
No. Not yet at least. Maybe someone will make a LoRa module for flipper.
Are you going to Bornhack?
Maybe
You are confusing the hop limit with the message retransmit number. They are not the same thing.
on my beam supreme i got no stats so i trow it away
I think the T deck typing issue is hardware related and cant be mitigated or resolved by the Meshtastic devs. Something about the microcontroller being single threaded I believe.
The keyboard works much better in Ripple, an alternative firmware for t-deck.
@@sn0ren Well that firmware may not have as much to do on the UI loop. I am pretty sure the dev's said there was not much they could do in this case, due to single threading.
if APRS would be available by buying a small $50 device that can be connected by Bluetooth and has a nice app, I would be using this and get a license
RIP APRS :), Meshstatic is killing it.
No competition. Each serves a different purpose. I have done APRS around a thousand miles miles with an attic antenna on 30m. HF APRS doesnt need the same infrastructure in place for long ranges.
This is only about the 4t time i even heard the name of this gadget. So if a few ppl was camping or working in the desert or Forrest. Each group in theory could use a helium balloon to lift a node to about 50 75 meters possibly teathered by a kite string with a possibility 30 gauge enameled copper wire for grunding and possibly mounting te antenna to. Maybe use hydrogen in the balloon, produced from water and a solar panel. With say 5+ groups of 2-4+ ppl. Say 2-5 miles apart. This could allow basic communication between them each group having a node close by (roughly 150' high) possibly a central node in a Forrest location with tall trees. They should have good comms . Especially in a desert location as long as the nodes can see each other, and the people on the ground can see a node. I can see this being awsome with some improvements relax regulations slightly, with a 8-10 watt Maximum (and 2watt buffer) an a slight change to transmission protocol. Have a short term memory to store messages if they can't be instantly transitted. Have the messages lined up like the start of a race , one goes, a few seconds later the next, then a few seconds then another, possibly receive messages before transmitting the next. Maybe a received confirmation signal. Then the next transmission to prevent lost messages and congestion. Maybe divide into channels by the frequency of the message how fast the message itself is sent. Like talking faster and slower. Wth the same volume. Say the two channels. One is one word/sec. Two is 2 word's/sec. Actually much faster with not such large difference in rate, but the system programed to seperatethe two. And what abut transmission over CB radio frequency?? Sorry to ramble, havea awesome day!
Inspired
The fact that there are problems with meshtastic are highly understated here even though this is one of the rare videos that does indicate that there are problems. It is nothing more than a development toy that should not be used for anything other than that. It is unstable, unreliable, not robust, and should never be deployed in any kind of natural/man-made disaster, SHTF scenario, or used in any mission critical role - despite what the proponents of meshtastic or prepper fantasists will tell you.
why the background music???
b-roll music? its not bad in this case
@@JeePeeEs if one likes eleveder music????
Isn't this just another type of grid, it's not really offgrid, yet kinda interesting
One APRS issue to mention however, no encryption or even anonymity is allowed, as with any amateur radio tech. Meshtastic in contrast can be anonymous and/or encrypted, so much better suited for privacy and personal communication!
Texting with APRS using tadio buttons sux.
Malheureusement l'aprs n'a pas de protocole sécurisé AES, je pense qu'effectivement aprs et meshtastic sont complémentaire.
73' F4JPC ;)
as a nerd I think this is very fun. as a user of electronics during emergencies this Meshsastic thing is very useless. This isn't off-grid, is just a decentralized private grid.
Sorry but proclaiming tha getting your HAM radio licens is just a formality and an easy simple exam comleetly rueen my trustworthiness in your video
👍
Doesn't a license free 2 watt radio can communicate further than this device?
Although it would be nice if all my neighbors would spontaneously decide to get this device and get a mesh going around my area :)
Meshtastic and APRS are like CB and Ham Radio.
Finished it. Skipped the setup but there’s had some legit points about functionality post set up. Especially with the Lilygo T-Deck. But that’s a dev board in its infancy. That said, you COMPLETELY failed to mention encryption and the lack there of within APRS and HAM 📻 in general. The main feature of Meshtastic off grid low powered long range encrypted comms. Failing to mention this point in contrast to APRS is completely disingenuous.
The video was getting a bit long so I had to skip some parts, so I chose to skip the part that interests me the least. I'm not interested in encrypted communication, there are plenty better ways of doing that without having to resort to RF. My interest is in experimenting with RF, antennas and modulations and I think that's also the case for a lot of people that are getting started with Meshtastic. And for them I think amateur radio can offer even more similar fun things to play with.