Thank you for addressing this issue. I am heading out now to replant a new hybrid tea rose I planted earlier this spring in the same hole that three previous roses had died (each after one year). I live in northeast Ohio, have clay soil and need to address that every time I plant, so it was certainly easier to plant a new rose in the same place. I just figured it didn't survive cold winter even though I take precautions for that as well. Besides, directly adjacent to it, I have a very healthy six year old rose called All My Lovin which I planted as a memory rose for my son. I did not remove all the old soil each time but consulted with the nursery and removed some of the dirt and aded new potting mixture with added sweet peat and so far it's healthy. I want to point out, I discovered a small type ant hill adjacent to it, so it's highly likely the ants are under the plant and in and around the roots. That's the second reason I'm going to move it. So its hot summer but it'll be in a semi shady spot with a lot of babying. I hope it works. Thanks, Gaby in Ohio
I had a rose border for years that was in excellent health. 2 years ago I planted a row of alternating cherry, pear, apple and plum trees 2 metres from this border (they were small and not shading or in competition for water - I checked the extent of the root systems the other day) and since then splits have occurred in my trees branches and lumpiness under the bark with some kind of canker on the branches and trunks, which seems to be repeated on the roses too now as of this year. some of the roses are losing entire branches and just have 1 left which is evidently withering away. They are mostly David Austin roses so I am gutted - but since some are within the 5 year guarantee period I shall seek a replacement for those. Glad to hear This presenter is also sceptical ;)
Thank you for sharing this info on a very under researched problem area, for people who don't have the luxury of plenty of space in their garden this is important to be aware of
A friend recently moved a rose and wanted to put another in the same spot. We planted it down in a cardboard box in new soil as advised on Peter Beales website, so far so good.
Jason i’d like to share good news with you.. my rose that got sprouts chewed up by maybe passing dog .. is sprouting again.. i can’t contain my joy, because when you go garden centres looking for one like that, you find every other rose but that particular one.. thanks for listening Jason.. happy flowering
The rose sickness problem is the same on all Rosaceae, including apples and pears. I have always understood that this is caused by the increased presence of nematodes that live around the roots of Rosaceae plants, and are parasitic. I know of a Ph.D. project at the university where I worked from a student who attempted to solve this problem by covering the ground with plastic and forcing the ground to become anaerobic, which will kill the nematodes. Unfortunately, the anaerobic bacteria are also undesirable, and for some species are worse than the nematodes. I deal with this problem by pulling up old roses and planting something completely different.
Most interesting as I have always been rather sceptical of it being termed a 'disease' which would imply pathogens of some description. I am aware that roses are hungry feeders and can have an exhausting effect on the soil. I am also aware through research that many plants are able to exude inhibitors in the rhizospehere to prevent competition and there maybe a chance that what we are talking here is a residual effect, in addition you would think that the disease would have affected the older plant and some degeneration noted in it's performance. Perhaps that was why it was being replaced. On that front I have personally never had too much of an issue with regenerating really tired old roses through comprehensive care/feeding etc. As a precaution I have in the past removed the old soil at the planting hole, put in a stout cardboard box and refilled this as the planting hole with the new rose and fresh soil. I have not noted any under-performance in the newer roses although as I only look after a few hundred compared to you I may not notice. I think your approach was right and thank you for sharing this. It's an area that needs some definitive answers.
Hi Fraser Valley Rose Farm. I'm I forgot your name. I'm enjoying videos. I'm watching Rose Sickness. I'll tell you we got hit hard with black spot this year. It's definitely my fault..I was unable to get to the rose bushes this spring to clean them up because we had a nesting pair of cardinals in them. I can tell how helpful this video is, because I worked on my white tea rose bush today for 4 hours. It was a mess. It's 24 years old and so was the fertilizer I found on the base of the plant. I'm going to do my best to save all of my bushes now that I have the right information. Thanks again. Have a great evening.
Great example of a strong sceptical inquiry into accepted knowledge. Thank you Jason. My respect for your mind and approach have deepened. Yours with warm regards Jennie
I did take out a rose that died in my garden. I dug out a 3 foot square and 2 foot deep area. Put in new soil, compost and manure. Planted a new rose. So far it is still growing well. The old soil went in the garbage.
Found this video and your video on pruning an over grown rose complimenting each other nicely. It has me scratching my head over whether to continue to try to improve an elderly rugosa or hack it out and start over. It certainly is true the suckers 3 or 4 ft. away are much more vigorous but that’s true of lilac and a lot of other shrubs. Love your videos and just looking at your misty mountains.
Once again a scientifically based answer to an age old problem. Councils here in Scotland would probably clear all of the soil out of the bed and plant roses in this fresh soil. It wasn't a problem for us as a bare root rose nursery as we rotated our crop with an intermediate planting of a green crop such as mustard which we would plough in at the end of summer. Our ground was fairly heavy clay so as you said "rose sickness" seems to be more prevalent on lighter soils. It must be over 40 years since we last grew roses on the site and despite the time period we have a bit more info on the problem but it is still a little vague. Great video once again Jason.
Thanks for sharing your experience on this. When asked about this in person, I try to give a balanced reaction: it's not exactly a myth, but don't overreact! For an individual gardener, it's not quite so dire as for commercial growers.
Very interesting, and I learned something today about nematodes! I thought that they were just specific to Florida, because I grow roses in Florida, and all I know is that by-and-large, if they are not grafted onto Fortuniana root stock, they simply do not do well in Florida soils. Again, very interesting info! :)
Made that mistake. Waited two years after climbing new dawn gave up. Planted eden in same soil with compost. On north side of garage. First year like suspended animation. Second year lost strongest Cain. Third year she’s blooming at six feet tall. Spring plant tone with planters two. Rose tone after bloom and let her go
Hi Jason. It has been a couple of years since you made this video. I wonder if you have tried some of the remedies that you discussed here, and if you have any further words of wisdom for us?
Jason excellent information thank you, when I plant my roses I have been mixing in a small amount of Bone Meal in the bottom of the hole, I have been told that if I use a product called ( Root Grow )it would help the roots develop quicker I was wondering what you do when you are planting your Roses , Best wishes from England .
Now I know why when I planted a new fresh healthy rose in the same place where a previous rose had died the following rose also died. What do I do now? Dig up heaps of the soil that is there and dispose of it and get several bags of soil from the local garden supplies? Keep the plant that I bought this morning that I had intentions of planting there in the container that it is and in the near future just transplant it into a bigger container? Any suggestions will be appreciated thanks.
A couple of things I do as a precaution: I grow the new rose on in a pot for a while to get it larger. In the meanwhile, if you can plant some annuals (like marigolds) in the area of the old rose, it helps to rebalance the soil life between roses. You can also use mycorrhizal inoculants to help bring the soil life back into balance.
If you're not going the soil replacement route, but rather just planted some alternate crops in the space (the research recommended marigolds to discourage nematodes) even a year or two would make a big difference.
Many plants perform 'root exudation' where the roots leak out substances on purpose. For some it encourages fungi to become symbiotic with them as it provides them with nutrients they need, but for other plants it is to inhibit other plants growing too close to them and being in competition. I wonder whether they have researched whether it is an inhibitory chemical rather than an organism causing the problem, since the chemical structure of the inhibitory factor could be altered and rendered harmless by the heating process. they could try gamma irradiation instead to find out, as this would kill the microbes but not affect the chemical. I wonder also if people have experienced problems replacing the SAME type of rose or if it is just a problem when they replace the rose with a different sort, which would be inhibited by the different type.
Thanks - and that's exactly what they did in the research: irradiated the soil. The irradiated soil no longer inhibited rose growth, so they concluded the source to be biotic. In my e-mail exchange with the researcher, she let me know that the problem was most severe at commercial growers, where they would repeatedly use the same fields for successive years of rose production. Kinda makes sense, though - an intensive monoculture with no other plantings could build up soil organisms (she mentioned nematodes specifically as one of the culprits). It makes me wonder how much we have to worry about it in the average garden though.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm Fascinating - apologies, I didn't know until I just watched you clay soil video that you studied soil at Uni, I pictured you as a typical plant shop guy. I totally underestimated your academic background so apologies again. I learn more as I work my way through your videos (I'm fairly new to your channel) It cheered me up that my musings on experimental design turned out to be realistic though. Woah - even more importantly - this means I can Irradiate my soil to prevent the disease. Good to know.
Seems to be a faulty assumption, that "irradiation" would only demise soil organisms. "Irradiation" or heat treatment, if they are the same thing here, could also affect inhibitory compounds.
I lost 2 roses when I replanted them to a new spot, I never had roses there, possibly the previous owner did have roses in those spots, I wouldn't know. Within a week the leaves had gone gnarly and changed color. I had to dig them up and burn them.
I really like your videos and appreciate your help, this year it's look like I had armillaria root rot in my perennial flower bed I found some mushrooms and white ash like stuff near the roots and roots were so crunchy. I rotated the soil and plants and put 2 bags of new soil sprinkle cinnamon and neem powder and give less water what should I do to get rid of this problem from the soil?
Sounds like you're doing a lot of the right things. You could try a mycorrhizal inoculant (like under the brand name Myke) to establish beneficial fungi in your soil.
My personal crazy theory. Every plant root system extends with invisible fungus chains forming "the brain" of the plant. With the age this brain can grow a lot for some plants. Especially for the ones able to live longer and those that are well adapted to survive external factors. Rose is one of those long living plants having a good protection against animals and other plants. When you artificially remove the rose from the soil including the root system you disconnect the fungus from the plant but you do not kill the fungus. The brain is independent living organisms that feeds from the energy produced by the plants but providing them with a network for communication and helping to support the plants with nutrients and intelligence. Once you remove the rose the fungus will connect with other species for only one reason to survive. And the fungus will be remembering that the rose is a weak provider and will not support it soon again. If the future plants growing on the same spot prove as weaker with the time - a rose will grow again there. The best way to control the health of a plant is to control the needs of the fungus chain that connects with the plants. You can find the same relation in the animals and humans. Just the fungus network is part of the body. The above is not linked with science resources but my personal observations about life. I may be wrong
I knew you would have something on this subject Jason ! Thank you so much. I'm searching for info because I was wondering if I have this issue myself. I planted three Iceberg climbers early this year, all bare root. One of them hasn't flowered at all and looks much weaker & quite spindly compared to the other two that have thrown up many canes look strong and flowering really well. I planted the sickly looking one approx. 18" - 2ft away from Arthur Bell which I inherited, a rose that must have been here for many years & I've been thinking it must be something like this replant disease, the other two icebergs are not planted near any roses I actually dug new planting holes for those two. I can't see what else it could be? Perhaps it's just too close to the existing rose in that bed ? I did dig lots of compost and well rotted manure into the planting holes and I do sprinkle Empathy's mycorrhizal fungi directly onto the roots and into the hole whenever I plant any roses or shrubs so they all had the same treatment.
It might be a little early to call the game: some roses take a while to establish roots. And of course, there could be some kind of illness or injury (including replant disease) that impacted one but not the others. I don't love the idea of digging in lots of compost and manure to the planting hole - it can encourage a bloom of microbial life that can make it difficult for the rose roots to establish. What's done is done though, so I'd probably leave it be and see if the rose finds its legs in the coming year.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm Thanks for the reply Jason I'll see how it does next year but it doesn't look happy. I've always used that soil prep method for planting. I think it's just what I saw my Mum always do and what I've seen Monty Don (gardeners world) etc do and I think it's what David Austin's suggest & Britishroses site etc. so just gone with it without really questioning it to be honest.
I know many plants have similar issues in continuous cropping. The only way to prevent this issue is to disinfect the soil with chemical or heat or change the crop you plant. Can planting a grafted rose help mitigate this issue if these two method is not practical in home condition?
Thanks Garven. I haven't seen anything to say whether one root stock or another would be more tolerant of soil sickness, but I'd suppose that the larger & more vigorous the root system at the time of planting may make a difference.
So do roses effectively create their own sickness in the soil they occupy or is it that damaging organisms are attracted to rose plants? What causes black spot in roses? Why are roses so prone to disease? My roses have some black spot but not enough to seriously damage the plants. They still look good apart from a few old leaves as they age. These are easily removed. We do have heavy soil, acid soil, above clay.
Two questions come to mind. First question: If this is a disease in the soil why does it only affect new roses? Shouldn't it harm the rose currently growing in that spot? I don't see how a disease could know the difference. Second question: If this was true then why, or how, are commercial growers able to keep using the same areas for production? It would seem that eventually they would run out of productive areas that are safe from any such disease.
Hi Clay. A fellow skeptic! Nice. The way I think of it, it's like a whole "ecosystem" of soil life specializes and builds up around the roots of a new rose as it establishes in a fresh bed. By the time harmful populations have built up in the soil, the mature rose has built an extensive root system, and has had time to "compensate" for the increased presence of the nematodes etc. A younger rose going into the same spot doesn't have the same advantage, because the ecosystem "got a head start" advancing to a mature population on the older rose. As for your second question, the answer is pretty plain: replant disease was brought to the attention of researchers specifically because commercial growers began having productivity problems. Most of the research was done based on the higher economic value of orchard crops, which had the same problem. In the research I reviewed for this video, it was clear that rose growers were raising the same concerns. One takeaway could be to reduce the "monoculture" effect by interplanting you roses with a diversity of other annuals and perennials, so that the soil life doesn't become quite so specialized to make their living from the roots of roses. A second measure might be to grow your young rose for a year or two in a pot, to give it a large, more resilient root system before planting into the same spot where you previously had roses. And the researcher did also say that mycorrhiza-type products could be useful in protecting the young roots.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm I can go along with both of those ideas. It seems to indicate how nature hates the idea of specialization, in regards to monoculture, and favors diversity. The old practice of crop rotation also comes to mind by not allowing any one disease or problem to gain a foothold. Thanks for the info and keep up the good work!
I have 17 rose bushes. Some I planted several years ago and some are new. Why are the the new buds looking rotten on top before opening then when they do open they hay have brown lines on the outer edges of the petals?
That wouldn't have a lot to do with soil sickness. Sometimes rotting buds will have to do with moisture (and rot organisms taking advantage of the conditions). Another common reason for roses failing to open or turning brown is thrips, but they're usually more an issue later in the summer.
We lost a few old standard roses to the drought this past summer and I haven’t heard of this before. So would removing and replacing the old soil prior to replanting make it safer to replant new roses in the same location?
Hi Trina. I'm on the fence about how much work I want to put into avoiding soil sickness. I guess the safest thing it to replace soil, but I'm going to see if I can get away with just planting marigolds before my next rose in the spot, and then using a mycorrhizal product in the planting hole.
Fraser Valley Rose Farm thank you very much for your reply, I will do more research before I replant. I appreciate you posting about this topic as I had never heard of this. All the best!
I thought you were implying at people cos i’ve got rose sickness.. if i have all colours of roses i start getting 2-4 of the same.. i see mini roses i get them .. i have all colours of David Austin .. then i want all colours of hybrid teas..& i’ve got it..i’d given away £18.000 to my son ..i took it back because i used to ask him to buy them for me & he said no.. but these days i’m buying food with that money .. i hope i don’t change & buy roses with it all again… helpppp
I never heard of this but I'm new to the rose world. I have 3 1/2 acres so if I have to plant in the same spot. I would dig out the hole and dig a hole some where else then swap the soil from each hole. That would be like planting the rose in another spot.
Thanks Dennis. I haven't seen anything in my own garden that would lead to concerns about rose replant disease. I'm usually a little slow to replace a rose after removal - and the spot may go for for a season or two filled with just annuals or perennials. Yes, soil replacement is one reasonable option if you don't mind the work.
I dont agree. If I plant a new rose next to a growing rose, no problem. If I remove a rose and replant another in its place, problem. So I think damaged or dead roots give off aleopathic chemicals as a growth inhibiter. Does the problem only occur if you switch cultivars vs the same cultivar to the one previously in that spot? What you can dois plant your rose in fresh soil in a cardboard box abd then plant the boxinthe hole. By the time the box breajs down the problem would have been resolved.
Hi Ian. I haven't had too many problems myself, but I try to take common sense precautions based on the science. Growing the plant to a larger size before planting seems a good idea when putting in the same spot as a rose once was. I've taken up adding a mycorrhizal inoculant also. I don't suppose cultivar would make much difference, except if maybe the new rose is quite vigorous or is grafted on a vigorous rootstock.
Could you use liquid proteases to break down any inhibitory proteins? Or are the inhibitors organic molecules? Seems like heat treating would denature proteins and kill the bacteria, whereas heat wouldn't be as effective against organic molecules unless the bacteria manufacturing them are dead. Has this experiment been done?
Hi Brennan. The only experiments I know about were related to heat-treatment - which seemed to eliminate the rose sickness. The conclusion was that the inhibitors were a combination of organisms in the soil (including nematodes).
I have an idea for a treatment, but no way to test it. Maybe you or someone else can make use of it. I think that if you were to use a heavy dose of wood ash, you could temporarily change the soil ph to make the ground inhospitable to whatever's causing the problem. Then after a bit of time the ground could be flooded to wash out the alkalinity, and I think it would have a similar effect to heat sterilization.
Interesting. Another form of sterilization but chemical rather than heat. I know I've heard of using fumigants as another approach. Nothing I've tried, and I'm generally pretty conservative about trying to modify the soil - it would take some follow-up soil testing to see what it's done to the pH and nutrient levels.
Is this something ever present? Do the roses I just planted in pots have it? What do you do with the old soil? (So rotation and nemamix companion planting. Never heard of this. But am new to roses as I always was discouraged by black spot. Compost and rebuilding soil wouldn't slow or balance it in roses favor? There must be something it doesn't like.)🤔
Hi Susan. I think you're on the right track when you say "balance" - the soil in the studies I mentioned came from monoculture situations (orchard, rose production nurseries). The researcher also confirmed that there were positive results related to rotation with other crops. It's an unbalanced buildup of rose-associated soil organisms, so it stands to reason that good soil and planting management would help: interplanting with other species, rotation, compost, mulching, mycorrhizal inoculant, etc.
Makes sense to me. Also, if the disease is more severe on small, stressed or poorly established roses, then it seems logical that a larger, more established rose from a container would cope better once in the ground.
I have terrible soil, so what I do is I amend it with a kind of haphazard terra preta-like approach -which might actually help with something like this. I dig a big hole where I'm going to plant something then I throw in thick wood, leaves and leftovers from my fridge and then burn the crap out of it. Then I dump in chicken poop, urine, some sand and topsoil and mix it all together. It works pretty good, I've not tried it with roses though. Was thinking the burning of stuff in the planting hole might kill any bad things in the soil 🤷
Hi Tony - basing this on nothing scientific at all, I'd go with 3ft or so, just to give the newly establishing rose some time to build its own roots without being effected by the replant disease
My roses are going into the third season. Do you know if it matters how long a rose has been there or once planted the disease is there not to long after?
I think the longer the rose is in the ground, the more likely any smaller new rose will struggle. I think the worst symptoms were found in places where roses were planted successively for years (commercial growers)
I JUST moved a rose to plant a new climber (this morning!). 😩. Does this apply to 100% of the time…meaning every single rose replanted will have this problem?
Hi Roseann. Different climates have different foliar diseases, but the three most common on roses are blackspot, powdery mildew and *rust*. I'd Google pics of the diseases to see if they match what's in your garden. Basic sanitation can be helpful if the problem is not too severe: removal of dropped leaves and infected foliage and stems. A sulfur or baking soda spray can also work to keep the infections from becoming too severe.
How about putting the soil into a kiddie pool where it can be spread out, putting boiling water in it and letting it dry out in the hot tropical sun. Then stirring up under the sun for several days. Then adding fresh compost to it
Heat sterilization is definitely one way that growers get a handle on problems like this, but I haven't done it myself so I can't really offer much guidance.
it was the problem come from that I planted the rosiers too close ( distance 50 cm ) . the disease was really from humidity .how to do ? all my rosiers affecte this disease ,please help me ?
@@meilynntan Improve air circulation by thinning stems, transplant the roses with better spacing. Are they in full sun outdoors? The new flowers should open okay once you improve the growing conditions.
Wonder if this also affects.roses that are too.close...i had one die that hubby planted really.close to.another hoping to.twine them together...climbers...the other looks sick too..yickes...30 years??? Oh no... And im.aroae.rustler.from.way way back..I have not gotten one to take since i moved south and its seems all the roses have black leaf spot really really bad doe. Doen here even ones i know are not suppose to be really susceptible to it...
this must be a way to protect themselves; imagine you say, i am a rose, i am growing big this is my territory, then a new rose seed pops up at your feet and says i am a rose, i own this area; time to eliminate the baby; we can only have so many babies per foot; just like a cow in a stall then we try to put three more; they will go buck wild and in the end there will be one cow; nice; it all points to God's design; if you love nature you must have realized by now there is a creator that designed it all; what you thought roses could be so amazing and just poofed into existence; love your channel whether you are atheist or a believer; but all roses point to the creator!
To tell the truth, me too! I'm still a little torn about how seriously to take the risk. I know that most of the research has been done based on commercial monoculture crops (orchards, production nurseries) - and I wonder that maybe with mixed garden plantings we mitigate some of the risks by having more diverse soil life.
An habitually questioning skeptical mind is even better than a sharpened tool.
Thanks Jason!!!
Thank you for addressing this issue. I am heading out now to replant a new hybrid tea rose I planted earlier this spring in the same hole that three previous roses had died (each after one year). I live in northeast Ohio, have clay soil and need to address that every time I plant, so it was certainly easier to plant a new rose in the same place. I just figured it didn't survive cold winter even though I take precautions for that as well. Besides, directly adjacent to it, I have a very healthy six year old rose called All My Lovin which I planted as a memory rose for my son. I did not remove all the old soil each time but consulted with the nursery and removed some of the dirt and aded new potting mixture with added sweet peat and so far it's healthy. I want to point out, I discovered a small type ant hill adjacent to it, so it's highly likely the ants are under the plant and in and around the roots. That's the second reason I'm going to move it. So its hot summer but it'll be in a semi shady spot with a lot of babying. I hope it works. Thanks, Gaby in Ohio
I had a rose border for years that was in excellent health. 2 years ago I planted a row of alternating cherry, pear, apple and plum trees 2 metres from this border (they were small and not shading or in competition for water - I checked the extent of the root systems the other day) and since then splits have occurred in my trees branches and lumpiness under the bark with some kind of canker on the branches and trunks, which seems to be repeated on the roses too now as of this year. some of the roses are losing entire branches and just have 1 left which is evidently withering away. They are mostly David Austin roses so I am gutted - but since some are within the 5 year guarantee period I shall seek a replacement for those. Glad to hear This presenter is also sceptical ;)
I love the way you question and research, "Is it the real deal ? ".
Thank you for sharing this info on a very under researched problem area, for people who don't have the luxury of plenty of space in their garden this is important to be aware of
A friend recently moved a rose and wanted to put another in the same spot. We planted it down in a cardboard box in new soil as advised on Peter Beales website, so far so good.
Jason i’d like to share good news with you.. my rose that got sprouts chewed up by maybe passing dog .. is sprouting again.. i can’t contain my joy, because when you go garden centres looking for one like that, you find every other rose but that particular one.. thanks for listening Jason.. happy flowering
The rose sickness problem is the same on all Rosaceae, including apples and pears. I have always understood that this is caused by the increased presence of nematodes that live around the roots of Rosaceae plants, and are parasitic. I know of a Ph.D. project at the university where I worked from a student who attempted to solve this problem by covering the ground with plastic and forcing the ground to become anaerobic, which will kill the nematodes. Unfortunately, the anaerobic bacteria are also undesirable, and for some species are worse than the nematodes. I deal with this problem by pulling up old roses and planting something completely different.
thank you for your advice.I think what I will do is to replace the soil on my rose beds, quicker than waiting for 30 years.
Most interesting as I have always been rather sceptical of it being termed a 'disease' which would imply pathogens of some description. I am aware that roses are hungry feeders and can have an exhausting effect on the soil. I am also aware through research that many plants are able to exude inhibitors in the rhizospehere to prevent competition and there maybe a chance that what we are talking here is a residual effect, in addition you would think that the disease would have affected the older plant and some degeneration noted in it's performance. Perhaps that was why it was being replaced. On that front I have personally never had too much of an issue with regenerating really tired old roses through comprehensive care/feeding etc. As a precaution I have in the past removed the old soil at the planting hole, put in a stout cardboard box and refilled this as the planting hole with the new rose and fresh soil. I have not noted any under-performance in the newer roses although as I only look after a few hundred compared to you I may not notice. I think your approach was right and thank you for sharing this. It's an area that needs some definitive answers.
Hello Shuttlefield - How large was the box you used to plant the new rose with the fresh soil? Thanks!
Hi Fraser Valley Rose Farm. I'm I forgot your name. I'm enjoying videos. I'm watching Rose Sickness. I'll tell you we got hit hard with black spot this year. It's definitely my fault..I was unable to get to the rose bushes this spring to clean them up because we had a nesting pair of cardinals in them. I can tell how helpful this video is, because I worked on my white tea rose bush today for 4 hours. It was a mess. It's 24 years old and so was the fertilizer I found on the base of the plant. I'm going to do my best to save all of my bushes now that I have the right information. Thanks again. Have a great evening.
Thanks Kerry.
Great example of a strong sceptical inquiry into accepted knowledge.
Thank you Jason. My respect for your mind and approach have deepened.
Yours with warm regards
Jennie
❤️ Hello Jason !
Thank You So Very Much For Sharing Video !
I did take out a rose that died in my garden. I dug out a 3 foot square and 2 foot deep area. Put in new soil, compost and manure. Planted a new rose. So far it is still growing well. The old soil went in the garbage.
Thank you again i will take your advise
I’ll have to try that, thank you
Very useful thanks Jason. I shall replan the area now given my light soil and rose sickness now well established. Cheers from Oz
Found this video and your video on pruning an over grown rose complimenting each other nicely. It has me scratching my head over whether to continue to try to improve an elderly rugosa or hack it out and start over. It certainly is true the suckers 3 or 4 ft. away are much more vigorous but that’s true of lilac and a lot of other shrubs. Love your videos and just looking at your misty mountains.
Once again a scientifically based answer to an age old problem. Councils here in Scotland would probably clear all of the soil out of the bed and plant roses in this fresh soil. It wasn't a problem for us as a bare root rose nursery as we rotated our crop with an intermediate planting of a green crop such as mustard which we would plough in at the end of summer. Our ground was fairly heavy clay so as you said "rose sickness" seems to be more prevalent on lighter soils. It must be over 40 years since we last grew roses on the site and despite the time period we have a bit more info on the problem but it is still a little vague. Great video once again Jason.
Thanks for sharing your experience on this. When asked about this in person, I try to give a balanced reaction: it's not exactly a myth, but don't overreact! For an individual gardener, it's not quite so dire as for commercial growers.
Hi Jason Thank you for prompt reply looks like I have a big task ahead of me .as I am not always careful on dropped debris.
Thanks for the research and clear explanation. It is hard to track down this information with reliable sources.
Wow. Never even heard of this before. Thanks!
Very interesting, and I learned something today about nematodes! I thought that they were just specific to Florida, because I grow roses in Florida, and all I know is that by-and-large, if they are not grafted onto Fortuniana root stock, they simply do not do well in Florida soils. Again, very interesting info! :)
Nice explanation. I am very thankful to get informed. Thank you. 11.7.24
thank you, im aware of that disease, since childhood, , keep up the good work
You bet Joe, thanks!
thanks again
Made that mistake. Waited two years after climbing new dawn gave up. Planted eden in same soil with compost. On north side of garage. First year like suspended animation. Second year lost strongest Cain. Third year she’s blooming at six feet tall. Spring plant tone with planters two. Rose tone after bloom and let her go
Thanks Mark
Hi Jason. It has been a couple of years since you made this video. I wonder if you have tried some of the remedies that you discussed here, and if you have any further words of wisdom for us?
Jason excellent information thank you, when I plant my roses I have been mixing in a small amount of Bone Meal in the bottom of the hole, I have been told that if I use a product called ( Root Grow )it would help the roots develop quicker I was wondering what you do when you are planting your Roses , Best wishes from England .
I wonder how crematorium rose gardens get on when a rose dies and it needs replacing.
Now I know why when I planted a new fresh healthy rose in the same place where a previous rose had died the following rose also died. What do I do now? Dig up heaps of the soil that is there and dispose of it and get several bags of soil from the local garden supplies? Keep the plant that I bought this morning that I had intentions of planting there in the container that it is and in the near future just transplant it into a bigger container? Any suggestions will be appreciated thanks.
A couple of things I do as a precaution: I grow the new rose on in a pot for a while to get it larger. In the meanwhile, if you can plant some annuals (like marigolds) in the area of the old rose, it helps to rebalance the soil life between roses. You can also use mycorrhizal inoculants to help bring the soil life back into balance.
I guess I would then wonder how long before the old soil would be "like new".
If you're not going the soil replacement route, but rather just planted some alternate crops in the space (the research recommended marigolds to discourage nematodes) even a year or two would make a big difference.
I've got rose sickness cause I keep buying and planting too many roses.
Thank you for sharing this information.
My pleasure Amanda.
Many plants perform 'root exudation' where the roots leak out substances on purpose. For some it encourages fungi to become symbiotic with them as it provides them with nutrients they need, but for other plants it is to inhibit other plants growing too close to them and being in competition. I wonder whether they have researched whether it is an inhibitory chemical rather than an organism causing the problem, since the chemical structure of the inhibitory factor could be altered and rendered harmless by the heating process. they could try gamma irradiation instead to find out, as this would kill the microbes but not affect the chemical. I wonder also if people have experienced problems replacing the SAME type of rose or if it is just a problem when they replace the rose with a different sort, which would be inhibited by the different type.
Thanks - and that's exactly what they did in the research: irradiated the soil. The irradiated soil no longer inhibited rose growth, so they concluded the source to be biotic. In my e-mail exchange with the researcher, she let me know that the problem was most severe at commercial growers, where they would repeatedly use the same fields for successive years of rose production. Kinda makes sense, though - an intensive monoculture with no other plantings could build up soil organisms (she mentioned nematodes specifically as one of the culprits). It makes me wonder how much we have to worry about it in the average garden though.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm Fascinating - apologies, I didn't know until I just watched you clay soil video that you studied soil at Uni, I pictured you as a typical plant shop guy. I totally underestimated your academic background so apologies again. I learn more as I work my way through your videos (I'm fairly new to your channel) It cheered me up that my musings on experimental design turned out to be realistic though. Woah - even more importantly - this means I can Irradiate my soil to prevent the disease. Good to know.
Seems to be a faulty assumption, that "irradiation" would only demise soil organisms. "Irradiation" or heat treatment, if they are the same thing here, could also affect inhibitory compounds.
Terrific explanation thank you
I lost 2 roses when I replanted them to a new spot, I never had roses there, possibly the previous owner did have roses in those spots, I wouldn't know. Within a week the leaves had gone gnarly and changed color. I had to dig them up and burn them.
I really like your videos and appreciate your help, this year it's look like I had armillaria root rot in my perennial flower bed I found some mushrooms and white ash like stuff near the roots and roots were so crunchy. I rotated the soil and plants and put 2 bags of new soil sprinkle cinnamon and neem powder and give less water what should I do to get rid of this problem from the soil?
Sounds like you're doing a lot of the right things. You could try a mycorrhizal inoculant (like under the brand name Myke) to establish beneficial fungi in your soil.
Thanks so much for your help
My personal crazy theory. Every plant root system extends with invisible fungus chains forming "the brain" of the plant. With the age this brain can grow a lot for some plants. Especially for the ones able to live longer and those that are well adapted to survive external factors. Rose is one of those long living plants having a good protection against animals and other plants. When you artificially remove the rose from the soil including the root system you disconnect the fungus from the plant but you do not kill the fungus. The brain is independent living organisms that feeds from the energy produced by the plants but providing them with a network for communication and helping to support the plants with nutrients and intelligence. Once you remove the rose the fungus will connect with other species for only one reason to survive. And the fungus will be remembering that the rose is a weak provider and will not support it soon again. If the future plants growing on the same spot prove as weaker with the time - a rose will grow again there. The best way to control the health of a plant is to control the needs of the fungus chain that connects with the plants. You can find the same relation in the animals and humans. Just the fungus network is part of the body. The above is not linked with science resources but my personal observations about life. I may be wrong
I knew you would have something on this subject Jason ! Thank you so much. I'm searching for info because I was wondering if I have this issue myself. I planted three Iceberg climbers early this year, all bare root. One of them hasn't flowered at all and looks much weaker & quite spindly compared to the other two that have thrown up many canes look strong and flowering really well. I planted the sickly looking one approx. 18" - 2ft away from Arthur Bell which I inherited, a rose that must have been here for many years & I've been thinking it must be something like this replant disease, the other two icebergs are not planted near any roses I actually dug new planting holes for those two. I can't see what else it could be? Perhaps it's just too close to the existing rose in that bed ? I did dig lots of compost and well rotted manure into the planting holes and I do sprinkle Empathy's mycorrhizal fungi directly onto the roots and into the hole whenever I plant any roses or shrubs so they all had the same treatment.
It might be a little early to call the game: some roses take a while to establish roots. And of course, there could be some kind of illness or injury (including replant disease) that impacted one but not the others. I don't love the idea of digging in lots of compost and manure to the planting hole - it can encourage a bloom of microbial life that can make it difficult for the rose roots to establish. What's done is done though, so I'd probably leave it be and see if the rose finds its legs in the coming year.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm Thanks for the reply Jason I'll see how it does next year but it doesn't look happy. I've always used that soil prep method for planting. I think it's just what I saw my Mum always do and what I've seen Monty Don (gardeners world) etc do and I think it's what David Austin's suggest & Britishroses site etc. so just gone with it without really questioning it to be honest.
I know many plants have similar issues in continuous cropping. The only way to prevent this issue is to disinfect the soil with chemical or heat or change the crop you plant. Can planting a grafted rose help mitigate this issue if these two method is not practical in home condition?
Thanks Garven. I haven't seen anything to say whether one root stock or another would be more tolerant of soil sickness, but I'd suppose that the larger & more vigorous the root system at the time of planting may make a difference.
Mychorrhizal fungi is what they add to the roots when planting roses in soil.
So do roses effectively create their own sickness in the soil they occupy or is it that damaging organisms are attracted to rose plants? What causes black spot in roses? Why are roses so prone to disease? My roses have some black spot but not enough to seriously damage the plants. They still look good apart from a few old leaves as they age. These are easily removed. We do have heavy soil, acid soil, above clay.
Roses have their particular diseases - but then so do most plants. Think of all the things that can go wrong with tomatoes...
Two questions come to mind. First question: If this is a disease in the soil why does it only affect new roses? Shouldn't it harm the rose currently growing in that spot? I don't see how a disease could know the difference. Second question: If this was true then why, or how, are commercial growers able to keep using the same areas for production? It would seem that eventually they would run out of productive areas that are safe from any such disease.
Hi Clay. A fellow skeptic! Nice. The way I think of it, it's like a whole "ecosystem" of soil life specializes and builds up around the roots of a new rose as it establishes in a fresh bed. By the time harmful populations have built up in the soil, the mature rose has built an extensive root system, and has had time to "compensate" for the increased presence of the nematodes etc. A younger rose going into the same spot doesn't have the same advantage, because the ecosystem "got a head start" advancing to a mature population on the older rose. As for your second question, the answer is pretty plain: replant disease was brought to the attention of researchers specifically because commercial growers began having productivity problems. Most of the research was done based on the higher economic value of orchard crops, which had the same problem. In the research I reviewed for this video, it was clear that rose growers were raising the same concerns. One takeaway could be to reduce the "monoculture" effect by interplanting you roses with a diversity of other annuals and perennials, so that the soil life doesn't become quite so specialized to make their living from the roots of roses. A second measure might be to grow your young rose for a year or two in a pot, to give it a large, more resilient root system before planting into the same spot where you previously had roses. And the researcher did also say that mycorrhiza-type products could be useful in protecting the young roots.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm I can go along with both of those ideas. It seems to indicate how nature hates the idea of specialization, in regards to monoculture, and favors diversity. The old practice of crop rotation also comes to mind by not allowing any one disease or problem to gain a foothold. Thanks for the info and keep up the good work!
I have 17 rose bushes. Some I planted several years ago and some are new. Why are the the new buds looking rotten on top before opening then when they do open they hay have brown lines on the outer edges of the petals?
That wouldn't have a lot to do with soil sickness. Sometimes rotting buds will have to do with moisture (and rot organisms taking advantage of the conditions). Another common reason for roses failing to open or turning brown is thrips, but they're usually more an issue later in the summer.
We lost a few old standard roses to the drought this past summer and I haven’t heard of this before. So would removing and replacing the old soil prior to replanting make it safer to replant new roses in the same location?
Hi Trina. I'm on the fence about how much work I want to put into avoiding soil sickness. I guess the safest thing it to replace soil, but I'm going to see if I can get away with just planting marigolds before my next rose in the spot, and then using a mycorrhizal product in the planting hole.
Fraser Valley Rose Farm thank you very much for your reply, I will do more research before I replant. I appreciate you posting about this topic as I had never heard of this. All the best!
I thought you were implying at people cos i’ve got rose sickness.. if i have all colours of roses i start getting 2-4 of the same.. i see mini roses i get them .. i have all colours of David Austin .. then i want all colours of hybrid teas..& i’ve got it..i’d given away £18.000 to my son ..i took it back because i used to ask him to buy them for me & he said no.. but these days i’m buying food with that money .. i hope i don’t change & buy roses with it all again… helpppp
I never heard of this but I'm new to the rose world. I have 3 1/2 acres so if I have to plant in the same spot. I would dig out the hole and dig a hole some where else then swap the soil from each hole. That would be like planting the rose in another spot.
Thanks Dennis. I haven't seen anything in my own garden that would lead to concerns about rose replant disease. I'm usually a little slow to replace a rose after removal - and the spot may go for for a season or two filled with just annuals or perennials. Yes, soil replacement is one reasonable option if you don't mind the work.
I dont agree. If I plant a new rose next to a growing rose, no problem.
If I remove a rose and replant another in its place, problem.
So I think damaged or dead roots give off aleopathic chemicals as a growth inhibiter.
Does the problem only occur if you switch cultivars vs the same cultivar to the one previously in that spot?
What you can dois plant your rose in fresh soil in a cardboard box abd then plant the boxinthe hole.
By the time the box breajs down the problem would have been resolved.
Hi Ian. I haven't had too many problems myself, but I try to take common sense precautions based on the science. Growing the plant to a larger size before planting seems a good idea when putting in the same spot as a rose once was. I've taken up adding a mycorrhizal inoculant also. I don't suppose cultivar would make much difference, except if maybe the new rose is quite vigorous or is grafted on a vigorous rootstock.
Could you use liquid proteases to break down any inhibitory proteins? Or are the inhibitors organic molecules? Seems like heat treating would denature proteins and kill the bacteria, whereas heat wouldn't be as effective against organic molecules unless the bacteria manufacturing them are dead. Has this experiment been done?
Hi Brennan. The only experiments I know about were related to heat-treatment - which seemed to eliminate the rose sickness. The conclusion was that the inhibitors were a combination of organisms in the soil (including nematodes).
I have an idea for a treatment, but no way to test it. Maybe you or someone else can make use of it. I think that if you were to use a heavy dose of wood ash, you could temporarily change the soil ph to make the ground inhospitable to whatever's causing the problem. Then after a bit of time the ground could be flooded to wash out the alkalinity, and I think it would have a similar effect to heat sterilization.
Interesting. Another form of sterilization but chemical rather than heat. I know I've heard of using fumigants as another approach. Nothing I've tried, and I'm generally pretty conservative about trying to modify the soil - it would take some follow-up soil testing to see what it's done to the pH and nutrient levels.
Is this something ever present? Do the roses I just planted in pots have it? What do you do with the old soil? (So rotation and nemamix companion planting. Never heard of this. But am new to roses as I always was discouraged by black spot. Compost and rebuilding soil wouldn't slow or balance it in roses favor? There must be something it doesn't like.)🤔
Hi Susan. I think you're on the right track when you say "balance" - the soil in the studies I mentioned came from monoculture situations (orchard, rose production nurseries). The researcher also confirmed that there were positive results related to rotation with other crops. It's an unbalanced buildup of rose-associated soil organisms, so it stands to reason that good soil and planting management would help: interplanting with other species, rotation, compost, mulching, mycorrhizal inoculant, etc.
Fraser Valley Rose Farm Thanks. One more thing if I may. Do you know a source for that special magnolia?🙂
Thank you.
Does this suggest it is best to grow roses in tubs and container's
Then when changing new roses change to new soil same time
SMILES
Makes sense to me. Also, if the disease is more severe on small, stressed or poorly established roses, then it seems logical that a larger, more established rose from a container would cope better once in the ground.
I have terrible soil, so what I do is I amend it with a kind of haphazard terra preta-like approach -which might actually help with something like this. I dig a big hole where I'm going to plant something then I throw in thick wood, leaves and leftovers from my fridge and then burn the crap out of it. Then I dump in chicken poop, urine, some sand and topsoil and mix it all together. It works pretty good, I've not tried it with roses though. Was thinking the burning of stuff in the planting hole might kill any bad things in the soil 🤷
Interesting - thanks!
In view of rose sick,, what distance must be observed between rose plants especially a new rise and an established one???
Hi Tony - basing this on nothing scientific at all, I'd go with 3ft or so, just to give the newly establishing rose some time to build its own roots without being effected by the replant disease
My roses are going into the third season. Do you know if it matters how long a rose has been there or once planted the disease is there not to long after?
I think the longer the rose is in the ground, the more likely any smaller new rose will struggle. I think the worst symptoms were found in places where roses were planted successively for years (commercial growers)
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm Thank you you for responding.
Does this also apply for roses in pots?
Yes, but less an issue because it's fairly easy to replace the potting soil (compared to garden soil)
I JUST moved a rose to plant a new climber (this morning!). 😩. Does this apply to 100% of the time…meaning every single rose replanted will have this problem?
No. Many gardeners replant roses and experience no significant problem.
If you just planted the rose, is it worth it to uproot it and add the “mike” to the roots and replant?
HI Jason Why are the leaves all rustyon my tall rose tree.
Hi Roseann. Different climates have different foliar diseases, but the three most common on roses are blackspot, powdery mildew and *rust*. I'd Google pics of the diseases to see if they match what's in your garden. Basic sanitation can be helpful if the problem is not too severe: removal of dropped leaves and infected foliage and stems. A sulfur or baking soda spray can also work to keep the infections from becoming too severe.
Thank you 👌
How about putting the soil into a kiddie pool where it can be spread out, putting boiling water in it and letting it dry out in the hot tropical sun. Then stirring up under the sun for several days. Then adding fresh compost to it
Heat sterilization is definitely one way that growers get a handle on problems like this, but I haven't done it myself so I can't really offer much guidance.
What about the rose farms that grow their roses on fields for years !
Yes, that's where the studies collected their initial data. It's less an issue for the home grower than it is for commercial operations.
dear ! my roses have problems with buds are always dry and stiff , its affected fungus I don't know how to do
Is the weather wet? Any signs or thrips?
it was the problem come from that I planted the rosiers too close ( distance 50 cm ) . the disease was really from humidity .how to do ? all my rosiers affecte this disease ,please help me ?
@@meilynntan Improve air circulation by thinning stems, transplant the roses with better spacing. Are they in full sun outdoors? The new flowers should open okay once you improve the growing conditions.
What is a lite soil.
You answered my question.
Wonder if this also affects.roses that are too.close...i had one die that hubby planted really.close to.another hoping to.twine them together...climbers...the other looks sick too..yickes...30 years??? Oh no...
And im.aroae.rustler.from.way way back..I have not gotten one to take since i moved south and its seems all the roses have black leaf spot really really bad doe. Doen here even ones i know are not suppose to be really susceptible to it...
Good point Agusta Sister. If the roses are sharing their root zone soil, I'm sure the newer planted of the two would face these same risks.
👍
this must be a way to protect themselves; imagine you say, i am a rose, i am growing big this is my territory, then a new rose seed pops up at your feet and says i am a rose, i own this area; time to eliminate the baby; we can only have so many babies per foot; just like a cow in a stall then we try to put three more; they will go buck wild and in the end there will be one cow; nice; it all points to God's design; if you love nature you must have realized by now there is a creator that designed it all; what you thought roses could be so amazing and just poofed into existence; love your channel whether you are atheist or a believer; but all roses point to the creator!
I thought sure this was a myth..lol
To tell the truth, me too! I'm still a little torn about how seriously to take the risk. I know that most of the research has been done based on commercial monoculture crops (orchards, production nurseries) - and I wonder that maybe with mixed garden plantings we mitigate some of the risks by having more diverse soil life.