Actual worst part of GW products; "Hey you know the rules right? I didn't have time to read them again... I'm confused by all this stuff... Is this the right codex?" "Wanna play something else? I found this really great system that's way less-" "No. 40k only. 😐"
Some pretty valid points from both of you, it would be very nice to have an easily accessible version of the rules that gets updated with the latest faq and errata changes. However, I think the take on GW and the communities protectiveness towards their IP is a bad, though increasingly prevalent, one. Many fans interact with Warhammer primarily through the lore, you can see this in the UA-cam metrics for lore channels compared to the gaming channels. And I don’t think it’s wrong of those fans to take issue with others coming in and pushing things that don’t fit within the established lore. Of course the lore is made up, but now that it does exist it isn’t wrong for fans who love the world that has been created to try and protect it from changes that undermine the setting. Of course there are those who go way too far in both directions with this. And anyone who tells you that you can’t paint your Ultramarines any way that you like is clearly taking it too far. Likewise, insisting on your awesome home brew being accepted as equal to the lore by the fans breaks tramples on what they love about the hobby. I love listening to this podcast and it’s the best part of my Monday shifts at work. But the recent trend of gaming and painting channels treating the people who care about the setting as being less important than the creatives and gamers has caused several close friends and multiple members of my gaming community to feel they aren’t included in the hobby and that this space isn’t for them.
100% this. Realistically there are two small groups of entitled, elitist snobs that are having a screaming match over the internet while simultaneously turning the hobby into a novelty. As a "Historical Henry," I can sympathize with those who want to be the stewards of the lore and setting, and not have superficial changes for the sake of said change. However, that leads to their own purity spirals, which they accuse the other side of. Speaking of the other side, they're coming in and tone-policing people who could be enjoying a hobby for years, and if the hobby does change to cater to that tone-police. The people supported for years ask what happened to their hobby the tone-police say it was never for them. The truth is what grows and sustains the industry is the "Casual Carl." Who only wants to buy cool models and have fun. They don't really have time for either side and the petty politicking when getting deep into a hobby is a long-term investment with no guaranteed return on said investment outside of personal enjoyment. It's not just wargaming, it's just about every hobby that exists and they're all suffering for it.
Lack of sculptor credit is one of the worst aspects of their modern strategy, especially as a sculptor who idolizes some of the early Workshop sculpting folks. They're the people who made everything possible, and treating sculpting/creative talent as something incidental to a product and its attachment to brand is super-frustrating. It's an art form that got started within living memory, and that is seen as more and more disposable by folks now that there's so much low-effort 3d sculpts being churned out without consideration of what kind of design makes a good miniature.
@@christopherheintz2634 Nothing. Every sculptor has at least some weird sculpts out there because the only way to get skilled is by practice and repetition, and you take what work you can get in specialized fields like this. Internet would have made hay out of it for a while as is their wont, and then they'd move on. In addition - and kind of important to the topic at hand - the GW sculpting ecosystem is mostly separated from the wider independent sculpting world, where if you are taken on for a sculptor position, you are trained in their style and managed, especially if working in plastics because that's a huge up-front expense for tooling and design.
@ellearmstrong-cochrane4049 this is a naive take. They would get harassed for months. Things from death threats to doxing. This community is so full of some of the most immature people that they would feel personally slighted by one mediocre sculpt and would make it their mission to be annoying and disrespectful. Just look at the reactions to the new BA sculpts.
@@chancey3190 Outside the GW ecosystem, sculptors credits are the norm, and up through the late 90s, they credited their sculptors at workshop. "The community is uniquely terrible!" is an awful justification for removing artistic credit, especially because the lack of credit makes it harder to get other work outside of GW. Artists deserve credit even in a work-for-hire ecosystem, and claiming that it's to 'protect the sculptors' is both insulting to the artists and treats that kind of issue like something unavoidable rather than a larger problem that can be proactively fought against.
learned in school that word spelling dictates possession and relation between words. so corvus ending in “us” means its the subject. and belli is the possessive form for war which is bellum (so that changed the “um” to “i”. that means it’s roughly “crow of war”. which could mean warcrow given how english naming work. thought its kinda cool to think of it as “crow of war” tho.
I think you hit the nail on the head when you said (and I'm paraphrasing) that the problem is GW's business practices focusing on extracting money from players (like FOMO boxes, mandatory book purchases, etc.), instead of focusing on creating products and experiences that people want to pay for. Those strategies work to generate shorter term profits - especially when you have an effective monopoly on wargaming in a lot of places - but the strategy is going to catch up with them eventually. Maybe when their quarterly profits start dropping - and hopefully, when other companies start catching up - investors will bail and they will shift their behavior. And the games can still be good despite the anti-consumer business practices. But more and more I feel like a sucker when I buy something from Games Workshop, and I get the sense that more and more people at my gaming store feel the same.
Those „short term strategies“ have kept GW going for the last 30+ years (ever since they went public). They don‘t need to retain customers. They stated in one of their annual reports that the average customer spends 80% of their lifetime hobby spend in the first 3 years. There will always be the next generation with money to spend.
In just Tokyo we have about 5 stores and the cafe and there opening up new stores all over Japan. FLGS are not as common here, and most places cost $10~$20 to rent tables for a day, while the tables at official warhammer stores are free with reservation and terrain to use. We'll definitely have stores here for awhile
What I think is even worse about GW not crediting artists, is that they used to do that way more. I've been in the hobby a little longer and you always knew who sculpted the minis.
Good day! Spaniard patreon and fan here! I've been playing Infinity for 12 o so years and i couldn't encourage you more to play. It's a complex and fun game with an epic and interesting lore. I love the game! As an informative note: Corvus Belli is from the north west of spain and Galicians are known for their unique, and lovely, accent both in spanish and english, this could, maybe, lead to misplace the company. Always loving your podcast! If you come to Madrid or to Galicia, anytime, feel free to get in touch. Kindly regards. P.D.:Sorry for any mistake, english is, obviously, not my first lenguage.
Love the podcast, great points and entertaining as always, needs to be pointed out that Warcry moved away from “only Chaos” at the start of second edition. There are multiple warbands for order and death, and I believe destruction has at least one.
Man, I don't know. I got out of all GW games in 2014 because back then I thought they'd gone too far with their price raises and treatment of retailers and customers. Now I play games from other companies. Most recently I've become obsessed with a game from a little known Spanish (or maybe Italian?) studio, Corvus Belli. Since Feb 2023 I've played more games of Infinity (nearly weekly) than all other non-video games combined? I love CB's free rules and customer friendly attitude. Did you know that they announced a new miniature like this: "Now coming for this faction, a miniature for their subfaction" but because so many people bought the miniature not realizing it was only available for the subfaction they changed their minds and made it available for the main faction too. This isn't the only example: They came out with Reinforcements, a special game mode and released minis for it. People didn't like the game mode so they moved the minis into the main game so people who had bought them could use them. Plus open proxying as long as it's a CB miniature. If you buy a faction and think: "Dang, their robot dudes look terrible, I wish they looked like this other faction's" you can just use that other faction's robot dudes. Some new profile gets released for your army you really want to try? Just grab a mini you weren't using and use it. At their highest official tournaments. Anyway, maybe one day you'll stumble across Infinity and learn how good it is. I hear they're even working on a fantasy game.
GW is a model and paint company. The game just allows them to sell more. Hence why the game changes so often. Why the same model goes from super overpowered to the weakest and vice versa. Also is why they stopped making mordheim and such. They learned you can sell a good game and good minis once. Or you can sell a mediocre game(bad imo) and good minis 100 times. I don't buy anything GW outside of like $40 to $50 a year for minis I'll use in a non GW game or are just really nice models. Play indie games, save money, save your friends money, learn new tactics and strategies, etc etc.
GW is a Intellectual Property company, take it from someone that was in distribution for them. They don't make nearly as much from models and paint as they do from the sales or digital implementation of their IP's. Mini's represent less than a third of revenue.
See, one of my gripes is how they release stuff. Spearhead for AOS as an example is their smaller, introductory game. People have been raving about it online, but as of this post (8-7) the only way to get the rule book is by buying the Skaventide box for nearly 300 dollars. If it is supposed to be the introductory game in AOS as a whole, why isnt it available separate from a big box set for players that dont want Skaven or Stormcast. I know it will be available separately in like a month or two, but its in the Skaventide box, so not like the rules arent done and the books arent printed. Thanks for coming to my TedTalk.
Hey, neat to hear you reference Scythe: The Rise of Fenris (even indirectly)! I co-designed that with Jamey! I'm a big fan of both of your channels and and have been for years. I have become a fan of this podcast recently too, so that was really fun for me. 😄
oh thats amazing! My siblings and I played through the Rise of Fenris campaign many years ago and it’s one of my best gaming memories. One sibling was dominating early on and through a desperate play later in the campaign I uncovered the secret *redacted* and managed to win the campaign!
@@greyepoxy that's great! So glad to hear that. We really wanted the chance for those kind of come-from-behind victories, so I'm always happy to hear when that worked out So I'm always happy to hear when that worked out 😄 A couple of people have reported that they only won a single game in the entire campaign... But it was the last game, which won them the campaign! I thought that was fun.
SCOTT - Do NOT eat those small red berries in your yard. If they look like the Christmas decorations you see hanging from a leaf, they are no bueno my man.
Opening: Welcome to Trapped Under Plastic, we're your hosts, Kenny Blankenship and Vic Romano! Vic: Today we're painting Captain Babaganouch in his finest regalia! Kenny: Man, he really has a deathgrip on his Chainsword! Vic: Right you are Ken.
Note: You never have to finish a game you're not enjoying. Take your destiny into your own hands and quit the game. You time is worth more than suffering through a game.
Enjoyed listening to you both. I moved towards OPR purely for the time investment for games. Couldn't agree with the idea that you know you've lost, but you gotta sit there another 3 hours until the game is over.
I gotta say, Scott is singlehandedly the reason I got into A Song of Ice and Fire and am now leading the charge in growing the game's community in my area. Thanks man!
MOOOOOM GET THE CAMERA! I'M ON TV!🤣 It would be amazing to get the whole crew together and all that is done ist people roast Vince and Jon while the episode is all about Vince and Jon roasting each other🤣
Brothers, we are not here for painting advice, thats why we have your main channels. We come here for the ramble. To feel connected. To get to know you. Loved that horror game anecdote, lmao. I am the same.
GW 100% is pedatory to retailers they sell to, they are very practiced at FOMO, trying to convince you to order way more than you should. My shop i work at works with gw, i am constantly telling our rep no, for how much stuff they push on us, no i dont want imperialis because it doesn't sell, old world doesn't sell, the reason their annual report is so fantastic is they drop a ton of stuff on retailers, they could care less what happens after they charge you. Skaventide was pushed so hard, our rep tried to convince us to order 4 times the amount we could sell, my weekly call the rep talked to me for 1/2 an hour of constant grilling about why i should order so much. Good thing i'm not an idiot.
I consider 40k fucking unplayable unless you and your opponent just pick a source of information and decide that's how everything works. Like for example if you actually buy a codex like an absolute sucker, just agree that whatever is written down on both of your codices is just what the rules are. Just ignore the erratas and FAQs, they wrote the fucking book, so you use the rules in the damn book that you paid 50 dollars for that was invalidated before it was even shipped to you. The way me and my mates play is that if it's written on wahapedia, that's just how it works because fucking none of us actually wants to read FAQs or buy an overpriced paperweight known as a 40k codex.
The Codex should be a physical copy you buy for the purty pictures and fluff filler content. It should automatically include a digital version in the price and that digital version should be updated automatically with FAQs, erratas etc. If you didn't want the purty picture book you should get the basic digital Codex at a reasonable price with the same updates included in the price. But...GW so never going to happen. As usual the community has already produced better than they can manage.
A lot of good anti-GW points there Jon! And there is a lot of corporate-drone people out there who modelled their whole identity around not even Warhammer but GW as a whole. Pretty scary to see that. I collect Warhammer for 20 years now but it doesn't prohibit me from seeing all the shit they're doing. Game is too long and not competitive at all. I g0/You go system is a relict of old. If my opponent starts first and has a good round of shooting, I'm basically starting the game with quarter (or more!) or my army already gone. So it's not a 2k vs 2k game. It's very often a 2k vs 1,5k massacre.
@@tinyfishhobby3138you're totally right but that doesn't make it good game design. Hiding all your units behind coward rock during deployment often is a feels bad
@@Dannyboiii000 It’s not “hiding behind a coward rock” if your table is set up so that the terrain doesn’t afford huge open lines of sight from one deployment zone to the other. I’m not saying that all your terrain needs to be in or at your deployment line so that your units can hide behind it.
I strongly agree with everything you guys said about the act of playing the game. Even amongst friends nowadays it feels like 50% of the time we sit down to play Warhammer, somebody has a bad time. I feel like you were a bit uncharitable towards people who enjoy or cherish the lore, though. All of the lore is made up, sure, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have internal logic. If I spent hours reading about Inquisitor Eisenhorn, I am likely invested in him as a character. His story, his personality, his capabilities. If someone shows up to a game with a ratling riding a unicorn and says "That's Inquisitor Eisenhorn", I wouldn't enjoy it. No matter how creative or cool the conversion is. Same reason I wouldn't enjoy playing against pink Ultramarines. It ceases to be Warhammer and it becomes a pastiche of different ideas that resemble Warhammer. If you show up with a pink chapter of Space Marines with a name and heraldry and history, though, then that's rad. The point is, there's no right or wrong. People aren't wrong for not caring about the lore, and making up whatever new stuff they want. People also aren't wrong for enjoying the lore for what it is, though, and wanting to try and game or hobby within that sandbox. I play a lot of historical games, and I have no interest in playing blue on blue type games. I care more about trying to model and learn about the history of WW2, for example, than I care about playing Bolt Action. So I'd rather play something other than Bolt Action than play Americans VS British, if that makes sense? I imagine Scott wouldn't want me showing up to his Star Wars RPG playing Deadpool, either. Saying, "It's all made up! Disney COULD put Deadpool in Star Wars tomorrow! That's no reason not to allow it!", isn't really a good excuse. I suppose the issue comes when one side or the other presents their personal vibe as the 'correct' one. You're not wrong for wanting female Space Marines, and you're not wrong for not wanting them. You're not wrong for not wanting to engage in the hobby with someone who has a different opinion than you. You're wrong for trying to bully someone into not enjoying the parts of the game they want to enjoy, however, because it doesn't align with your own desires.
Really enjoying listening to the podcast while I am working and I have been going through the back catalogue for a week or so. The amount of times I think I am listening to one speak and its actually the other makes me laugh. Looking up and thinking 'Oh it was John saying that' seems to happen to me constantly great show though
As someone who really enjoys the game, currently my least favorite part of warhammer 40k is the constant threat of units you've spent hundreds of hours building and painting being removed and discontinued in order to make room for new shit. My brother plays Sisters, and now he has a bunch of deathcult assassins and crusaders that are nothing more than shelf decoration because GW decided those units don't exist anymore. Overall it makes it feel like gambling picking up a box of models that haven't released in the last couple years.
A great discussion. It really irks me how much of the discourse around warhammer is all knee jerk "its trash" "pass" on rules. I think we all do oursleves a hobby disservice on this "race to the competitive bottom". Is ok (actually good) to be mediocre at hobbies!
I'm still in a dream, mini painter.Painter. But yeah, I strongly prefer physical books too, but in GWs case the physical books are worthless. I bought the 9th edition Tau codex and never even played a game with it. I only have the 10th edition one now because it came with the hunting pack, and there isn't much point in using it because I have to reference an online document anyway for all my points costs, and to check and see what rules they changed from the ones printed in the book. You can't really use the books as they're printed and that's usually before the book even physically comes out, or it changes on day one. And even if you actively play the game, the book only has a shelf life of 3 years, before it's invalidated by the next edition, and that's assuming you got yours in the beginning anyway and not at the end, like Guard and WE did in 9th. GW calls itself a model company, they sell toy soldiers, but you'd think they make all their money selling books the way their business actually works.
For the resin printers there are silicon dog bowl mats that work perfectly to catch resin easy to wipe off or you can just use a UV lamp to cure the resin and peel it off.
I agree with Jon's point that Warhammer lore doesn't make much sense. Nonetheless to just say that any change in lore is ok just because it is all imaginary anyways is in my view too simplistic. Many people like the escapist aspect of fantasy and that becomes difficult if you get the impression that some people want to inject current day political or social discussions into a fantasy brand. Hence people talking about female space marines oder custodes where this might be the case. If in a new Lord of the Rings story the people from Gondor talked about their own colonial past, as they colonized Middle Earth, many people would be upset. And maybe rightly so. On the other hand it is probably quite easy to prove social and/or political influence on fantasy genres in many points. Maybe it is the motivation behind the influence. For my part, I don't like people trying to jam their ideas down my throat while claiming that I am just imagining things.
In the subject of MagicCarpFly, his issue with the rules change and trying to keep up was because him and a couple of guys in his team had to paint everything for the channel so the more things changed, the more he had to do. Most of his channel wasn't targeted to painters. but to gamers, and more to 40K competitive side. Also, only the chaos warbands with exception of Legionnaires and Darkoarth went away. Stormcast can still use the Questors warband. The only things that were completely removed were the Underworlds warbands because the rumor is that that game is going to be sunset. Warcry warbands for all other armies are still valid, and the Questors in particular are actually a very good unit for Stormcast. Cities still have their Wildercorp Hunters with their doggos.
All these complaints really boil down to issues with treating your product as a luxury because it's more profitable. Luxury prices don't have to be adjusted or go on sale. In fact, you need to buy them now because the cost of acquiring them in the future will only increase mostly due to rarity. Add a mechanical benefit or tactical advantage and you're basically doing a pay to win "micro"-transactions with luxury items strategy. Any product that gains enough of a consumer base that they'll buy consistently regardless of the price will rapidly convert into a luxury. This is why video games farm the whales and why Games Workshop follows the same pattern and the business side of the company very much knows this and how to abuse it. Same with WotC with D&D or Activision with CoD or really any mobile game. Hell, we even treat housing like this. With the degradation of access to free spaces, entertainment and fun and relaxation have become a luxury that corps can abuse to maximize profits over quality or access. Y'all are stuck as part of the cycle by design. Warhammer gets more views due to a consistent player base so you do Warhammer videos. People feel like Warhammer is *the* game to play due to all the content so that's their entry for tabletop wargaming. It's not like it's y'all's fault, just an unfortunate reality of our societal pressures and economic system.
Re Warhammer store closures - independent game stores are rare because the national market in the UK is small and the biggest player takes all the air in the room so sadly we are stuck with them for the long haul sadly.
my friend and i have finally gotten to edition exhaustion. Now we look at what prior edition do we know best/ had most fun with vs the new shiny. Miniature overload is also a thing
I think one of the comments about the rules from your Escalation Campaign wrap-up video was -- "At some point, it becomes Calvinball".. I think we are definitely there....
While you guys are correct about learning the game and the rules being a pain in the ass, most players who stay involved with the competitive scene talk frequently and argue/discuss rules constantly. Local TOs have different rulings on different rules, so playing with something "bent" the "wrong" way is just something we get used to. The game is about having fun for most of us. As well when something does get bent or broken in a rules update, you learn all about it at your next event. Can't imagine the pain it would be for casual players tho.
Do other painting competitions have more transparency? Your point towards creativity does work against them having a target of what they are looking for. I agree there should be no disqualifications to encourage creativity. But that same creativity encouragement should also mean there's no definable target of what they are looking for. The judges should just be respected enough that we trust they are capable of evaluating two pieces that could be so distinct.
GW 100 percent advertise the game as competitive as they produce competitive rules and normal rules for the game themselves. The fans make it even more competitive and then tournaments make their own rule sets for events but GW fully push the competitive nature of the game
I don't think GD "IP stranglehold" is the entire reason for the lore nitpicking. A lot of it is due to how the competition is structured - its a winner take all scheme (unlike most other painting competitions) where only three entries can place. In that environment, with hundreds of models to judge, you will take absolutely any reason to cut that number of entries down. In a typical creative competition, multiple golds, silvers and bronzes are awarded within any single category, to anyone the judges feel met the standard for whichever medal. Now like everything GW, thats how it was done early on, so now it will never change, but for me that is the primary reason GD sucks. And I mean to take nothing away from those that compete in it - this is simply a critique of GW.
Totally agree about the time lengths- I can’t justify spending literally 5+ hours for what may be a very unsatisfying/sluggish experience for either party. I will say I don’t agree about about the devaluing of the lore- it’s important to maintain consistency for it to have any value. Make new things and if they suck they suck, don’t try to bastardize what is precious to the people who’ve invested in and become attached to. It’s how we got things like starwars to just be this incoherent mess. If you don’t care about the lore and just like it cause “shiny models” you can do your own thing, but don’t insist the company tear down or gut and twist established pieces.
A big part of these wargames is just that in the local areas there isn't enough or any players who have or are willing to invest in other wargames. In my area it's 85% 40k, 10% AOS, and 5% other games. Even if I wanted to get into other games then I would either have to convince others to try it out, or front the cost for enough models for 2 people to play and that's not easy to do.
I really enjoyed 40k 8th edition, it brough me back to the game. I barely touched 9th, and by 10th I was thinking "Well, GW is doing it again..." so I only was paying atention to the minis. Recently, and thanks to One Page Rules, I´m playing again. I really hope that GW will do things in a different way at some point...
29:30 Fortnight is fun, as an old-school FPS player, until you get good enough to get matched with the 12 year olds who know how to build. Unless they changed it, past a certain level being able to build while fighting becomes a major skill that I was uninterested in developing.
I returned to the hobby around 5 years ago, partially influenced by both of you guys. When I was in high school I wanted to play WFB and it was bad experience. The game was long, complicated, not that good and super expensive so I abandoned it. Right now I focus on painting, converting minis and telling my own little stories. The difference is hard to describe. Let's just say it feels good and I am far away for balance updates and all the dramas, painting what I like and how I want.
There is a lot of misinformation (or just inaccuracy, because the hosts are human) about some of the things GW has done or still does (such as them "kiboshing" BattleScribe, PDFs being available for download with the link in the book, etc) but that just illustrates how obtuse and unintuitive GW's handling of their rules and IP are. Hard to blame these guys for getting the details wrong when the owning company intentionally makes their rules difficult to acquire without paying out the nose.
Love the cast. "Competative" 40k is mental. Arguable the most stunning models in the world yet people play on garbage tier tables. Usually a mat with big red cirles on and cardboard buildings.
Interesting episode, fellas. I agree with some of your points about GW's rules - especially in regards to finding every rule buried across multiple publications. The comment about the competitive scene being a reason why folks get concerned about which models they buy - yes, the cost (at least in my local community) is the main and honestly kind of the only reason. I think everything you added after that point, while interesting, sort of lost the plot. The only caveat to that is if you just buy models to paint for fun, then it doesn't matter. However, if you even remotely think you may want to play in any kind of a tournament, then it makes sense to have to seriously research and consider every model you are going to buy for your army as the cost adds up fast, obviously. All other conversation about the game is competitive or is inherently competitive, but for reasons it's not that great of a competitive game - OK, sure - but is any wargame really all that competitive. It feels like a lot of personal bias is guiding your feelings on this as it's clear (Jon, maybe more so than Scott) is a competitive person in nature and the comparison to Magic, which is way more geared towards to competitive players and the rewards he associates with competitive games, reinforces his bias. Nothing wrong with having a bias. Just can't expect GW to ever make Warhammer a balanced and competitive experience as you want it to be, and that's OK. Ironically, it's not for everyone even if they say it's for everyone. In regards to your lore criticism and it being toxic, that is kind of a funny one. It's admittedly an awkward conversation as of late, but definitely funny when your own example about there is no "Library of Congress" contradicts your whole rant , because - yes, there is literally a library - it's called the Black Library. It has outlined for years everything you claim is not there. Just sayin' lol. That's the heart of this whole "toxicity" issue, imho. Sure, GW can do whatever they want to do and change whatever they want to change. However, when they re-write the history or laws (as you called it) of the game that has been established for 10, 20, or 30 years - and the group that doesn't care calls the crowd that does care toxic, or a this, or a that - it doesn't really create any goodwill in the community and feels even less inclusive now than it used to be because of this mindset. Ironically, I think it's guys like Asmongold that kind of correctly identified this characteristic most attributed to Millennials, where they can come into a space, be indifferent to an established thing (whatever it is), but feel strongly about changing it to something they want changed, and then if they can make that change happen, call the OG fans toxic. It happened in video games, comics, and movies and from a financial and community fan-base, it hasn't done those markets much good in recent years. It's a bummer to see it happen in Warhammer now, but it is what it is. A similar thing seems to be happening on your take with the Golden Demon competition. Are the competition rules great? F*ck no. There is definitely some things that could be refined. But, the kind of thing it seems you guys are wanting to see changed, basically sounds like you should just consider a different competition that supports that type of creativity. It's like going to a Chinese restaurant and demanding they make you a burger or tendies. Sure, they could do it, but why force that? Go to a Five Guys or Raising Canes instead. Hopefully, that all made sense. You did ask for comments from the community lol. Keep up the good work and engaging content. Cheers!
I’m glad I listened to your video before I just jumped to making a comment. Corvus Belli is *the best fucking company ever, and Infinity fucking rocks!*
GW has the community and even 'broadcasting' available to have a competitive environment that would make LoL cry if they only supported it. If GW put cash prizes to a schedule of tournaments on each continent with famous GW sculptures and painters at each event, a) there's no way they wouldn't have enough ad revenue at the outset to put the whole thing on, and 2) it would drive more sales and get more people into the hobby than every brick and mortar GW store together
I truly think it's a problem with the genre of game (not just warhammer). If you compare esports and sports in general to Wargaming, there's just so much more down time in war gaming. Also, there are no huge, interesting moments. The extent of a big moment in wargaming is rolling something statistically unlikely, which isn't interesting after a while (to me). Wargaming is a slow burn where a large strategy comes together over the course of a game which is cool in hindsight, but is fundamentally missing something for an enjoyable live sport to spectate. This is a super fun conversation that I've thought a bit about and I'd love to be wrong, however, so feel free to share additional thoughts!
The takeaway here is: GW is not a (war)gaming-company, it is a model company (period). Their rules for 35 years haven't been the main goal, models are. Scott call the rules 'mediocre' that is generous imho. But again, great, great modelmakers (most of them at least).
I think Jon is on to something with Warhammer stores going, my local Warhammer store is no longer a proper hobby and gaming hub. It's just a store, they used to things more regularly and have a weekly calendar of events that helped get people into it and I just dont see that anymore.
I’m a mind of two camps, be creative sure but I also like a sense of realism (yes it’s a fake world and fake setting, but is grounded in rules). There WAS very established lore, which governed a lot of story play. Now they just spit on the OG players by rewriting the rules and lore of the setting. That’s why I went to Horus heresy way back in the day. I’m played like a historical game, where it was about the story and a good time, not the pay to play and get the best model. Even dnd has some world set rules, so you can’t just go all nuts all the time. Unless that’s the game you play. So play with pink marines but don’t call them tau.
Things I h@t3 about GW: A) prices and current business model B) Over detailed models cut down into a million pieces that makes assembly and painting a nightmare (less is more) C) scale D) Game systems except MESB E) constant faq FAQ erratas that make those bad game systems absolute as soon as a book is released. What I love about GW: A) made me look at other publishers and miniature manufacturers 😂
Jon Ninas, in his quest to defeat Vince Venturella one rat ogre at a time, alongside Scott Walter! Scott has delved some office space, there are almost no supplies left, but with stout labor comes sustenance! Enough time to delve secure lodgings, ere the dingoes get hungry!
My son also subjects me to many horror games...try Phasmophobia! That'll give you nightmares. Also, what audio platforms do you usually release these on?
Brick and mortar stores build new hobbies and introduce it to them well. If you don't know how to hobby or the game, they are a great starting point. A lot of FLGS sadly don't end up too helpful in showing you how to hobby.
A note of warning: Scott’s cheque from ‘Lucasfilm Studios’ is likely to bounce unless it has been countersigned by the finance officer of Walt Disney Studios, of which Lucas has been a subsidiary since 2012. This would be a tragedy, as was said acquisition.
I'm just a painter now, the game (40k) is so so convoluted screw buying all the new rules every year is an awful feeling. Thankfully I have a grey back log to paint until retirement . It's a bitter experience I have been in the hobby for 30 years. Even the lore doesn't excite me like it used to and it's not just on me. It all feels diluted. Our pod are just mtg players now. I used to have an almost patriotic following of it all but here in the UK it's only competitive players left in my eyes.
Opr does a great kill team game but the main won't isn't good . Its worse than 40k which it's self isn't a great game . Opr just seems to be championed by the anti gw crowd , there's much better games out there then both opr or 40k
I think every painter, from the newest noob, to the greatest pro, should all get together for the next golden demon, and enter something that *has* to be disqualified. Force them to award someone regardless.
You know who else also has concise rules - OPR. I will keep championing them, because they've been doing this well for a long time. Free rules (full rulebooks are ~£5) - rules are in one document, in one place to download. Brower/app Army builder, with rules validation. All rules on the lists popup upon tap. Rules don't drastically change all the time. (Usually ) small incremental changes. Model agnostic, but with own brand models if you want. All models are 40k compatible, so just play in the 40k universe but with their rules. If you add the advanced rules, it's not that much less depth than 40k. FAR fewer rules, in simpler language, that are more streamlined.
Your understanding of GW’s pricing controls is missing the race to the bottom that would be online retailers. If drop shippers could sell $1 over cost they would and every hobby shop that needs to make a little margin to survive would struggle. Yes, there are some negatives for shops, but it’s also a prevention against them making short-sighted decisions.
Sweet baby Jesus! We went from “Games outside the GW ecosphere” just a few months ago to “We effin’ hate Warhammer!!!” What did I do to you guys?!?! 😂 😂😂
I made a post on Reddit the other day that took off, with my comparison of 40k and AOS and why I think AOS is more "fun" I feel like this is totally on the same energy Edit dude wth did you guys read it or something, had a picture of what looked like a goblin casting a meteor shower
Actual worst part of GW products; "Hey you know the rules right? I didn't have time to read them again... I'm confused by all this stuff... Is this the right codex?"
"Wanna play something else? I found this really great system that's way less-"
"No. 40k only. 😐"
Some pretty valid points from both of you, it would be very nice to have an easily accessible version of the rules that gets updated with the latest faq and errata changes.
However, I think the take on GW and the communities protectiveness towards their IP is a bad, though increasingly prevalent, one.
Many fans interact with Warhammer primarily through the lore, you can see this in the UA-cam metrics for lore channels compared to the gaming channels. And I don’t think it’s wrong of those fans to take issue with others coming in and pushing things that don’t fit within the established lore. Of course the lore is made up, but now that it does exist it isn’t wrong for fans who love the world that has been created to try and protect it from changes that undermine the setting.
Of course there are those who go way too far in both directions with this. And anyone who tells you that you can’t paint your Ultramarines any way that you like is clearly taking it too far. Likewise, insisting on your awesome home brew being accepted as equal to the lore by the fans breaks tramples on what they love about the hobby.
I love listening to this podcast and it’s the best part of my Monday shifts at work. But the recent trend of gaming and painting channels treating the people who care about the setting as being less important than the creatives and gamers has caused several close friends and multiple members of my gaming community to feel they aren’t included in the hobby and that this space isn’t for them.
100% this. Realistically there are two small groups of entitled, elitist snobs that are having a screaming match over the internet while simultaneously turning the hobby into a novelty. As a "Historical Henry," I can sympathize with those who want to be the stewards of the lore and setting, and not have superficial changes for the sake of said change. However, that leads to their own purity spirals, which they accuse the other side of. Speaking of the other side, they're coming in and tone-policing people who could be enjoying a hobby for years, and if the hobby does change to cater to that tone-police. The people supported for years ask what happened to their hobby the tone-police say it was never for them. The truth is what grows and sustains the industry is the "Casual Carl." Who only wants to buy cool models and have fun. They don't really have time for either side and the petty politicking when getting deep into a hobby is a long-term investment with no guaranteed return on said investment outside of personal enjoyment. It's not just wargaming, it's just about every hobby that exists and they're all suffering for it.
Lack of sculptor credit is one of the worst aspects of their modern strategy, especially as a sculptor who idolizes some of the early Workshop sculpting folks. They're the people who made everything possible, and treating sculpting/creative talent as something incidental to a product and its attachment to brand is super-frustrating. It's an art form that got started within living memory, and that is seen as more and more disposable by folks now that there's so much low-effort 3d sculpts being churned out without consideration of what kind of design makes a good miniature.
And what do you think would've happened with the dude who made the primaris, the nerd gun dude, or the admech stilts guy?
@@christopherheintz2634 Nothing. Every sculptor has at least some weird sculpts out there because the only way to get skilled is by practice and repetition, and you take what work you can get in specialized fields like this. Internet would have made hay out of it for a while as is their wont, and then they'd move on. In addition - and kind of important to the topic at hand - the GW sculpting ecosystem is mostly separated from the wider independent sculpting world, where if you are taken on for a sculptor position, you are trained in their style and managed, especially if working in plastics because that's a huge up-front expense for tooling and design.
Let's face it: contemporary GAMES WORKSHOP (i.e. New Guard vs. Old Guard) .......... *_SUCKS._*
@ellearmstrong-cochrane4049 this is a naive take. They would get harassed for months. Things from death threats to doxing. This community is so full of some of the most immature people that they would feel personally slighted by one mediocre sculpt and would make it their mission to be annoying and disrespectful. Just look at the reactions to the new BA sculpts.
@@chancey3190 Outside the GW ecosystem, sculptors credits are the norm, and up through the late 90s, they credited their sculptors at workshop. "The community is uniquely terrible!" is an awful justification for removing artistic credit, especially because the lack of credit makes it harder to get other work outside of GW. Artists deserve credit even in a work-for-hire ecosystem, and claiming that it's to 'protect the sculptors' is both insulting to the artists and treats that kind of issue like something unavoidable rather than a larger problem that can be proactively fought against.
when scott yelled "they broke your fucking model" that came from his soul
Corvus Beli is latin; corvus is crow, beli is war. Warcrow.
there's also a small game called Warcrow in Poland.
Minor correction: bellum is war, belli is the genitive, "of war".
@@Skiriwowiye probably right, I'm not great at Latin...can barely cope with English
learned in school that word spelling dictates possession and relation between words. so corvus ending in “us” means its the subject. and belli is the possessive form for war which is bellum (so that changed the “um” to “i”. that means it’s roughly “crow of war”. which could mean warcrow given how english naming work. thought its kinda cool to think of it as “crow of war” tho.
Neeeerds 😅
I think you hit the nail on the head when you said (and I'm paraphrasing) that the problem is GW's business practices focusing on extracting money from players (like FOMO boxes, mandatory book purchases, etc.), instead of focusing on creating products and experiences that people want to pay for. Those strategies work to generate shorter term profits - especially when you have an effective monopoly on wargaming in a lot of places - but the strategy is going to catch up with them eventually. Maybe when their quarterly profits start dropping - and hopefully, when other companies start catching up - investors will bail and they will shift their behavior.
And the games can still be good despite the anti-consumer business practices. But more and more I feel like a sucker when I buy something from Games Workshop, and I get the sense that more and more people at my gaming store feel the same.
Those „short term strategies“ have kept GW going for the last 30+ years (ever since they went public). They don‘t need to retain customers. They stated in one of their annual reports that the average customer spends 80% of their lifetime hobby spend in the first 3 years. There will always be the next generation with money to spend.
@@pforson fair enough. Maybe I'm just hitting my 3-year limit on GW 🙂
In just Tokyo we have about 5 stores and the cafe and there opening up new stores all over Japan. FLGS are not as common here, and most places cost $10~$20 to rent tables for a day, while the tables at official warhammer stores are free with reservation and terrain to use. We'll definitely have stores here for awhile
Yes, but there is so little space at the WH stores it is hard to even reserve, and they are closed almost half the week usually!
What I think is even worse about GW not crediting artists, is that they used to do that way more. I've been in the hobby a little longer and you always knew who sculpted the minis.
Hopefully with them crediting sculptors in WD 502 for skaventide were seeing a changing of the guard a bit.
Good day! Spaniard patreon and fan here!
I've been playing Infinity for 12 o so years and i couldn't encourage you more to play. It's a complex and fun game with an epic and interesting lore. I love the game!
As an informative note: Corvus Belli is from the north west of spain and Galicians are known for their unique, and lovely, accent both in spanish and english, this could, maybe, lead to misplace the company.
Always loving your podcast!
If you come to Madrid or to Galicia, anytime, feel free to get in touch.
Kindly regards.
P.D.:Sorry for any mistake, english is, obviously, not my first lenguage.
Love the podcast, great points and entertaining as always, needs to be pointed out that Warcry moved away from “only Chaos” at the start of second edition. There are multiple warbands for order and death, and I believe destruction has at least one.
That commentary about swass and stank from randos hit me hard. I still have PTSD from Adepticon. Papa nurgle would be pleased.
Man, I don't know. I got out of all GW games in 2014 because back then I thought they'd gone too far with their price raises and treatment of retailers and customers. Now I play games from other companies. Most recently I've become obsessed with a game from a little known Spanish (or maybe Italian?) studio, Corvus Belli. Since Feb 2023 I've played more games of Infinity (nearly weekly) than all other non-video games combined?
I love CB's free rules and customer friendly attitude. Did you know that they announced a new miniature like this: "Now coming for this faction, a miniature for their subfaction" but because so many people bought the miniature not realizing it was only available for the subfaction they changed their minds and made it available for the main faction too. This isn't the only example: They came out with Reinforcements, a special game mode and released minis for it. People didn't like the game mode so they moved the minis into the main game so people who had bought them could use them.
Plus open proxying as long as it's a CB miniature. If you buy a faction and think: "Dang, their robot dudes look terrible, I wish they looked like this other faction's" you can just use that other faction's robot dudes. Some new profile gets released for your army you really want to try? Just grab a mini you weren't using and use it. At their highest official tournaments.
Anyway, maybe one day you'll stumble across Infinity and learn how good it is. I hear they're even working on a fantasy game.
Spanish company, great models and positive culture, hope it grows more world wide.
GW updates the game to sell more, not to improve the game.
Yep. 40k launch years are always their best years financially.
I can just imagine Vince chugging on a vape smouldering every time Jon taunts him 😂
GW is a model and paint company. The game just allows them to sell more. Hence why the game changes so often. Why the same model goes from super overpowered to the weakest and vice versa.
Also is why they stopped making mordheim and such. They learned you can sell a good game and good minis once. Or you can sell a mediocre game(bad imo) and good minis 100 times. I don't buy anything GW outside of like $40 to $50 a year for minis I'll use in a non GW game or are just really nice models.
Play indie games, save money, save your friends money, learn new tactics and strategies, etc etc.
GW is a Intellectual Property company, take it from someone that was in distribution for them. They don't make nearly as much from models and paint as they do from the sales or digital implementation of their IP's. Mini's represent less than a third of revenue.
Good to see Infinity get some love.
See, one of my gripes is how they release stuff. Spearhead for AOS as an example is their smaller, introductory game. People have been raving about it online, but as of this post (8-7) the only way to get the rule book is by buying the Skaventide box for nearly 300 dollars. If it is supposed to be the introductory game in AOS as a whole, why isnt it available separate from a big box set for players that dont want Skaven or Stormcast. I know it will be available separately in like a month or two, but its in the Skaventide box, so not like the rules arent done and the books arent printed. Thanks for coming to my TedTalk.
New to you guys and have been binge watching like crazy.
Awesome content attitude and atmosphere
Hey, neat to hear you reference Scythe: The Rise of Fenris (even indirectly)! I co-designed that with Jamey! I'm a big fan of both of your channels and and have been for years. I have become a fan of this podcast recently too, so that was really fun for me. 😄
oh thats amazing! My siblings and I played through the Rise of Fenris campaign many years ago and it’s one of my best gaming memories. One sibling was dominating early on and through a desperate play later in the campaign I uncovered the secret *redacted* and managed to win the campaign!
@@greyepoxy that's great! So glad to hear that. We really wanted the chance for those kind of come-from-behind victories, so I'm always happy to hear when that worked out So I'm always happy to hear when that worked out 😄
A couple of people have reported that they only won a single game in the entire campaign... But it was the last game, which won them the campaign! I thought that was fun.
I love how relaxed and comfortable the preamble was. 😂 so far so good tho, thanks again fellas.
Trapped under Plastic - the podcast where painting minis is secondary to crushing your 12 year old opponents
SCOTT - Do NOT eat those small red berries in your yard. If they look like the Christmas decorations you see hanging from a leaf, they are no bueno my man.
I think he’s talking about small wild strawberries, I have them. Super sweet
🤔... we need to test them, they might be psychoactive. Smurf Berries.
I think they're just wild strawberries! My brother-in-law ate some a while ago and reported they tasted a little sour. Otherwise, he's still good!
Should you run across the berries op on this comment was talking about I say try them and report back.😄@@Miniac
They taste like burning.
- Scott
Opening:
Welcome to Trapped Under Plastic, we're your hosts, Kenny Blankenship and Vic Romano!
Vic: Today we're painting Captain Babaganouch in his finest regalia!
Kenny: Man, he really has a deathgrip on his Chainsword!
Vic: Right you are Ken.
Great reference to Most Extreme Elimination Challenge! Loved that show.
Note: You never have to finish a game you're not enjoying. Take your destiny into your own hands and quit the game. You time is worth more than suffering through a game.
Lol at smoked. Nurgle Greenery All Up In Our Scenery! Best wishes, Team
Glad you are enjoying Infinity, I have quit GW because of the quarterly price hike and moved to Infinity and other indie games.
Enjoyed listening to you both. I moved towards OPR purely for the time investment for games. Couldn't agree with the idea that you know you've lost, but you gotta sit there another 3 hours until the game is over.
I gotta say, Scott is singlehandedly the reason I got into A Song of Ice and Fire and am now leading the charge in growing the game's community in my area. Thanks man!
Wahapedia - that’s Russian site, that you mention. Great guy
I just print profiles from that site. Not sure I'll ever buy a battletome again...
MOOOOOM GET THE CAMERA! I'M ON TV!🤣
It would be amazing to get the whole crew together and all that is done ist people roast Vince and Jon while the episode is all about Vince and Jon roasting each other🤣
Brothers, we are not here for painting advice, thats why we have your main channels. We come here for the ramble. To feel connected. To get to know you. Loved that horror game anecdote, lmao. I am the same.
GW 100% is pedatory to retailers they sell to, they are very practiced at FOMO, trying to convince you to order way more than you should. My shop i work at works with gw, i am constantly telling our rep no, for how much stuff they push on us, no i dont want imperialis because it doesn't sell, old world doesn't sell, the reason their annual report is so fantastic is they drop a ton of stuff on retailers, they could care less what happens after they charge you. Skaventide was pushed so hard, our rep tried to convince us to order 4 times the amount we could sell, my weekly call the rep talked to me for 1/2 an hour of constant grilling about why i should order so much. Good thing i'm not an idiot.
I consider 40k fucking unplayable unless you and your opponent just pick a source of information and decide that's how everything works. Like for example if you actually buy a codex like an absolute sucker, just agree that whatever is written down on both of your codices is just what the rules are. Just ignore the erratas and FAQs, they wrote the fucking book, so you use the rules in the damn book that you paid 50 dollars for that was invalidated before it was even shipped to you.
The way me and my mates play is that if it's written on wahapedia, that's just how it works because fucking none of us actually wants to read FAQs or buy an overpriced paperweight known as a 40k codex.
Ive been doing that with Marvel Crisis Protocol. So many card changes and updates its just easier to play it out of the box.
The Codex should be a physical copy you buy for the purty pictures and fluff filler content. It should automatically include a digital version in the price and that digital version should be updated automatically with FAQs, erratas etc. If you didn't want the purty picture book you should get the basic digital Codex at a reasonable price with the same updates included in the price. But...GW so never going to happen. As usual the community has already produced better than they can manage.
A lot of good anti-GW points there Jon! And there is a lot of corporate-drone people out there who modelled their whole identity around not even Warhammer but GW as a whole. Pretty scary to see that. I collect Warhammer for 20 years now but it doesn't prohibit me from seeing all the shit they're doing.
Game is too long and not competitive at all. I g0/You go system is a relict of old. If my opponent starts first and has a good round of shooting, I'm basically starting the game with quarter (or more!) or my army already gone. So it's not a 2k vs 2k game. It's very often a 2k vs 1,5k massacre.
If that much of your army is getting shot off the table on turn 1, put more terrain on the table. It’s that simple.
@@tinyfishhobby3138tbh that being a crucial condition for the game to have a hint of balance kinda speaks to the brittle core design of the game.
@@tinyfishhobby3138you're totally right but that doesn't make it good game design. Hiding all your units behind coward rock during deployment often is a feels bad
@@Dannyboiii000 It’s not “hiding behind a coward rock” if your table is set up so that the terrain doesn’t afford huge open lines of sight from one deployment zone to the other. I’m not saying that all your terrain needs to be in or at your deployment line so that your units can hide behind it.
I strongly agree with everything you guys said about the act of playing the game. Even amongst friends nowadays it feels like 50% of the time we sit down to play Warhammer, somebody has a bad time.
I feel like you were a bit uncharitable towards people who enjoy or cherish the lore, though. All of the lore is made up, sure, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have internal logic. If I spent hours reading about Inquisitor Eisenhorn, I am likely invested in him as a character. His story, his personality, his capabilities. If someone shows up to a game with a ratling riding a unicorn and says "That's Inquisitor Eisenhorn", I wouldn't enjoy it. No matter how creative or cool the conversion is.
Same reason I wouldn't enjoy playing against pink Ultramarines. It ceases to be Warhammer and it becomes a pastiche of different ideas that resemble Warhammer. If you show up with a pink chapter of Space Marines with a name and heraldry and history, though, then that's rad. The point is, there's no right or wrong. People aren't wrong for not caring about the lore, and making up whatever new stuff they want. People also aren't wrong for enjoying the lore for what it is, though, and wanting to try and game or hobby within that sandbox.
I play a lot of historical games, and I have no interest in playing blue on blue type games. I care more about trying to model and learn about the history of WW2, for example, than I care about playing Bolt Action. So I'd rather play something other than Bolt Action than play Americans VS British, if that makes sense? I imagine Scott wouldn't want me showing up to his Star Wars RPG playing Deadpool, either. Saying, "It's all made up! Disney COULD put Deadpool in Star Wars tomorrow! That's no reason not to allow it!", isn't really a good excuse.
I suppose the issue comes when one side or the other presents their personal vibe as the 'correct' one. You're not wrong for wanting female Space Marines, and you're not wrong for not wanting them. You're not wrong for not wanting to engage in the hobby with someone who has a different opinion than you. You're wrong for trying to bully someone into not enjoying the parts of the game they want to enjoy, however, because it doesn't align with your own desires.
Really enjoying listening to the podcast while I am working and I have been going through the back catalogue for a week or so. The amount of times I think I am listening to one speak and its actually the other makes me laugh. Looking up and thinking 'Oh it was John saying that' seems to happen to me constantly
great show though
As someone who really enjoys the game, currently my least favorite part of warhammer 40k is the constant threat of units you've spent hundreds of hours building and painting being removed and discontinued in order to make room for new shit. My brother plays Sisters, and now he has a bunch of deathcult assassins and crusaders that are nothing more than shelf decoration because GW decided those units don't exist anymore. Overall it makes it feel like gambling picking up a box of models that haven't released in the last couple years.
A great discussion. It really irks me how much of the discourse around warhammer is all knee jerk "its trash" "pass" on rules. I think we all do oursleves a hobby disservice on this "race to the competitive bottom".
Is ok (actually good) to be mediocre at hobbies!
The ratling tank was disqualified? I don't remember that happening is there any info out there?
At one point their White Dwarf was pretty much just an advertisement catalogue for their minis, very happy they rolled that back.
I'm still in a dream, mini painter.Painter.
But yeah, I strongly prefer physical books too, but in GWs case the physical books are worthless. I bought the 9th edition Tau codex and never even played a game with it. I only have the 10th edition one now because it came with the hunting pack, and there isn't much point in using it because I have to reference an online document anyway for all my points costs, and to check and see what rules they changed from the ones printed in the book. You can't really use the books as they're printed and that's usually before the book even physically comes out, or it changes on day one. And even if you actively play the game, the book only has a shelf life of 3 years, before it's invalidated by the next edition, and that's assuming you got yours in the beginning anyway and not at the end, like Guard and WE did in 9th.
GW calls itself a model company, they sell toy soldiers, but you'd think they make all their money selling books the way their business actually works.
That *particular* dream means: Eat less cheese before bed.
😂
For the resin printers there are silicon dog bowl mats that work perfectly to catch resin easy to wipe off or you can just use a UV lamp to cure the resin and peel it off.
I agree with Jon's point that Warhammer lore doesn't make much sense. Nonetheless to just say that any change in lore is ok just because it is all imaginary anyways is in my view too simplistic. Many people like the escapist aspect of fantasy and that becomes difficult if you get the impression that some people want to inject current day political or social discussions into a fantasy brand. Hence people talking about female space marines oder custodes where this might be the case. If in a new Lord of the Rings story the people from Gondor talked about their own colonial past, as they colonized Middle Earth, many people would be upset. And maybe rightly so. On the other hand it is probably quite easy to prove social and/or political influence on fantasy genres in many points. Maybe it is the motivation behind the influence. For my part, I don't like people trying to jam their ideas down my throat while claiming that I am just imagining things.
GW is attacking FLGS on purpose, they want all sales to have to go through GW only.
Comics tried it as well.
It does not work.
In the subject of MagicCarpFly, his issue with the rules change and trying to keep up was because him and a couple of guys in his team had to paint everything for the channel so the more things changed, the more he had to do. Most of his channel wasn't targeted to painters. but to gamers, and more to 40K competitive side. Also, only the chaos warbands with exception of Legionnaires and Darkoarth went away. Stormcast can still use the Questors warband. The only things that were completely removed were the Underworlds warbands because the rumor is that that game is going to be sunset. Warcry warbands for all other armies are still valid, and the Questors in particular are actually a very good unit for Stormcast. Cities still have their Wildercorp Hunters with their doggos.
All these complaints really boil down to issues with treating your product as a luxury because it's more profitable. Luxury prices don't have to be adjusted or go on sale. In fact, you need to buy them now because the cost of acquiring them in the future will only increase mostly due to rarity. Add a mechanical benefit or tactical advantage and you're basically doing a pay to win "micro"-transactions with luxury items strategy. Any product that gains enough of a consumer base that they'll buy consistently regardless of the price will rapidly convert into a luxury. This is why video games farm the whales and why Games Workshop follows the same pattern and the business side of the company very much knows this and how to abuse it. Same with WotC with D&D or Activision with CoD or really any mobile game. Hell, we even treat housing like this. With the degradation of access to free spaces, entertainment and fun and relaxation have become a luxury that corps can abuse to maximize profits over quality or access.
Y'all are stuck as part of the cycle by design. Warhammer gets more views due to a consistent player base so you do Warhammer videos. People feel like Warhammer is *the* game to play due to all the content so that's their entry for tabletop wargaming. It's not like it's y'all's fault, just an unfortunate reality of our societal pressures and economic system.
Great discussion, Jon absolutely nailed it right at the end about discussing about whether models are worth putting in an army cause the rules suck.🎯
Thanks for the new episode. It really makes boring work tasks easier
Dam the youtube algorithm, been watching these guys content for months and only now do I get a recommendation in my feed that a podcast exists!!
Re Warhammer store closures - independent game stores are rare because the national market in the UK is small and the biggest player takes all the air in the room so sadly we are stuck with them for the long haul sadly.
my friend and i have finally gotten to edition exhaustion. Now we look at what prior edition do we know best/ had most fun with vs the new shiny. Miniature overload is also a thing
It's refreshing to heat about a lot of interesting points that are not usually talk about
I think one of the comments about the rules from your Escalation Campaign wrap-up video was -- "At some point, it becomes Calvinball".. I think we are definitely there....
While you guys are correct about learning the game and the rules being a pain in the ass, most players who stay involved with the competitive scene talk frequently and argue/discuss rules constantly. Local TOs have different rulings on different rules, so playing with something "bent" the "wrong" way is just something we get used to. The game is about having fun for most of us. As well when something does get bent or broken in a rules update, you learn all about it at your next event. Can't imagine the pain it would be for casual players tho.
“Gotcha” mentality is why Warhammer blows goats.
Great podcast as usual guys hi from the UK
My one stop podcast that has parenting advice, and light sabers coming out of and into an ass discussions.
Do other painting competitions have more transparency? Your point towards creativity does work against them having a target of what they are looking for. I agree there should be no disqualifications to encourage creativity. But that same creativity encouragement should also mean there's no definable target of what they are looking for. The judges should just be respected enough that we trust they are capable of evaluating two pieces that could be so distinct.
GW 100 percent advertise the game as competitive as they produce competitive rules and normal rules for the game themselves. The fans make it even more competitive and then tournaments make their own rule sets for events but GW fully push the competitive nature of the game
They produce rules for competition but they do not write competitive rules.
The GW discussion was so accurate and cathartic haha Thanks for sharing!
I don't think GD "IP stranglehold" is the entire reason for the lore nitpicking. A lot of it is due to how the competition is structured - its a winner take all scheme (unlike most other painting competitions) where only three entries can place. In that environment, with hundreds of models to judge, you will take absolutely any reason to cut that number of entries down. In a typical creative competition, multiple golds, silvers and bronzes are awarded within any single category, to anyone the judges feel met the standard for whichever medal. Now like everything GW, thats how it was done early on, so now it will never change, but for me that is the primary reason GD sucks. And I mean to take nothing away from those that compete in it - this is simply a critique of GW.
Totally agree about the time lengths- I can’t justify spending literally 5+ hours for what may be a very unsatisfying/sluggish experience for either party.
I will say I don’t agree about about the devaluing of the lore- it’s important to maintain consistency for it to have any value. Make new things and if they suck they suck, don’t try to bastardize what is precious to the people who’ve invested in and become attached to.
It’s how we got things like starwars to just be this incoherent mess. If you don’t care about the lore and just like it cause “shiny models” you can do your own thing, but don’t insist the company tear down or gut and twist established pieces.
A big part of these wargames is just that in the local areas there isn't enough or any players who have or are willing to invest in other wargames. In my area it's 85% 40k, 10% AOS, and 5% other games. Even if I wanted to get into other games then I would either have to convince others to try it out, or front the cost for enough models for 2 people to play and that's not easy to do.
Commenting to show love, keep up the good work bois!
I really enjoyed 40k 8th edition, it brough me back to the game. I barely touched 9th, and by 10th I was thinking "Well, GW is doing it again..." so I only was paying atention to the minis. Recently, and thanks to One Page Rules, I´m playing again. I really hope that GW will do things in a different way at some point...
Is Scott gonna upload those starwars rpg sessions? Also you guys ever gonna try painting any wild west exodus or shadows of brimstone minis?
29:30 Fortnight is fun, as an old-school FPS player, until you get good enough to get matched with the 12 year olds who know how to build. Unless they changed it, past a certain level being able to build while fighting becomes a major skill that I was uninterested in developing.
I returned to the hobby around 5 years ago, partially influenced by both of you guys. When I was in high school I wanted to play WFB and it was bad experience. The game was long, complicated, not that good and super expensive so I abandoned it. Right now I focus on painting, converting minis and telling my own little stories. The difference is hard to describe. Let's just say it feels good and I am far away for balance updates and all the dramas, painting what I like and how I want.
There is a lot of misinformation (or just inaccuracy, because the hosts are human) about some of the things GW has done or still does (such as them "kiboshing" BattleScribe, PDFs being available for download with the link in the book, etc) but that just illustrates how obtuse and unintuitive GW's handling of their rules and IP are. Hard to blame these guys for getting the details wrong when the owning company intentionally makes their rules difficult to acquire without paying out the nose.
I watch a lot of lore vids. never touched paint to plastic yet. Collected a shit-ton of stls though. Need to watch some more Ninjon videos.
Love the cast.
"Competative" 40k is mental. Arguable the most stunning models in the world yet people play on garbage tier tables. Usually a mat with big red cirles on and cardboard buildings.
Interesting episode, fellas. I agree with some of your points about GW's rules - especially in regards to finding every rule buried across multiple publications. The comment about the competitive scene being a reason why folks get concerned about which models they buy - yes, the cost (at least in my local community) is the main and honestly kind of the only reason. I think everything you added after that point, while interesting, sort of lost the plot. The only caveat to that is if you just buy models to paint for fun, then it doesn't matter. However, if you even remotely think you may want to play in any kind of a tournament, then it makes sense to have to seriously research and consider every model you are going to buy for your army as the cost adds up fast, obviously. All other conversation about the game is competitive or is inherently competitive, but for reasons it's not that great of a competitive game - OK, sure - but is any wargame really all that competitive. It feels like a lot of personal bias is guiding your feelings on this as it's clear (Jon, maybe more so than Scott) is a competitive person in nature and the comparison to Magic, which is way more geared towards to competitive players and the rewards he associates with competitive games, reinforces his bias. Nothing wrong with having a bias. Just can't expect GW to ever make Warhammer a balanced and competitive experience as you want it to be, and that's OK. Ironically, it's not for everyone even if they say it's for everyone.
In regards to your lore criticism and it being toxic, that is kind of a funny one. It's admittedly an awkward conversation as of late, but definitely funny when your own example about there is no "Library of Congress" contradicts your whole rant , because - yes, there is literally a library - it's called the Black Library. It has outlined for years everything you claim is not there. Just sayin' lol. That's the heart of this whole "toxicity" issue, imho. Sure, GW can do whatever they want to do and change whatever they want to change. However, when they re-write the history or laws (as you called it) of the game that has been established for 10, 20, or 30 years - and the group that doesn't care calls the crowd that does care toxic, or a this, or a that - it doesn't really create any goodwill in the community and feels even less inclusive now than it used to be because of this mindset. Ironically, I think it's guys like Asmongold that kind of correctly identified this characteristic most attributed to Millennials, where they can come into a space, be indifferent to an established thing (whatever it is), but feel strongly about changing it to something they want changed, and then if they can make that change happen, call the OG fans toxic. It happened in video games, comics, and movies and from a financial and community fan-base, it hasn't done those markets much good in recent years. It's a bummer to see it happen in Warhammer now, but it is what it is.
A similar thing seems to be happening on your take with the Golden Demon competition. Are the competition rules great? F*ck no. There is definitely some things that could be refined. But, the kind of thing it seems you guys are wanting to see changed, basically sounds like you should just consider a different competition that supports that type of creativity. It's like going to a Chinese restaurant and demanding they make you a burger or tendies. Sure, they could do it, but why force that? Go to a Five Guys or Raising Canes instead.
Hopefully, that all made sense. You did ask for comments from the community lol. Keep up the good work and engaging content. Cheers!
I’m glad I listened to your video before I just jumped to making a comment. Corvus Belli is *the best fucking company ever, and Infinity fucking rocks!*
GW has the community and even 'broadcasting' available to have a competitive environment that would make LoL cry if they only supported it. If GW put cash prizes to a schedule of tournaments on each continent with famous GW sculptures and painters at each event, a) there's no way they wouldn't have enough ad revenue at the outset to put the whole thing on, and 2) it would drive more sales and get more people into the hobby than every brick and mortar GW store together
I truly think it's a problem with the genre of game (not just warhammer). If you compare esports and sports in general to Wargaming, there's just so much more down time in war gaming. Also, there are no huge, interesting moments. The extent of a big moment in wargaming is rolling something statistically unlikely, which isn't interesting after a while (to me). Wargaming is a slow burn where a large strategy comes together over the course of a game which is cool in hindsight, but is fundamentally missing something for an enjoyable live sport to spectate.
This is a super fun conversation that I've thought a bit about and I'd love to be wrong, however, so feel free to share additional thoughts!
Yh Japan is a place I'd love to go ,I'm a gundam builder they have competition for custom building painting a bit like golden demon
Good discussion. 100% agree about how the company gives no credit to its players and painters. GW just uses it’s consumers to push more product.
The takeaway here is: GW is not a (war)gaming-company, it is a model company (period). Their rules for 35 years haven't been the main goal, models are. Scott call the rules 'mediocre' that is generous imho.
But again, great, great modelmakers (most of them at least).
I think Jon is on to something with Warhammer stores going, my local Warhammer store is no longer a proper hobby and gaming hub. It's just a store, they used to things more regularly and have a weekly calendar of events that helped get people into it and I just dont see that anymore.
Jon's dream was so creepy but also really cool. Don't Hug Me I'm Scared vibes.
Good take lads
I’m a mind of two camps, be creative sure but I also like a sense of realism (yes it’s a fake world and fake setting, but is grounded in rules). There WAS very established lore, which governed a lot of story play. Now they just spit on the OG players by rewriting the rules and lore of the setting. That’s why I went to Horus heresy way back in the day. I’m played like a historical game, where it was about the story and a good time, not the pay to play and get the best model. Even dnd has some world set rules, so you can’t just go all nuts all the time. Unless that’s the game you play. So play with pink marines but don’t call them tau.
it really bugs me that every 3d printed "crate" is just a Weighted Companion Cube.
Things I h@t3 about GW:
A) prices and current business model
B) Over detailed models cut down into a million pieces that makes assembly and painting a nightmare (less is more)
C) scale
D) Game systems except MESB
E) constant faq FAQ erratas that make those bad game systems absolute as soon as a book is released.
What I love about GW:
A) made me look at other publishers and miniature manufacturers 😂
Jon Ninas, in his quest to defeat Vince Venturella one rat ogre at a time, alongside Scott Walter! Scott has delved some office space, there are almost no supplies left, but with stout labor comes sustenance! Enough time to delve secure lodgings, ere the dingoes get hungry!
My son also subjects me to many horror games...try Phasmophobia! That'll give you nightmares. Also, what audio platforms do you usually release these on?
Brick and mortar stores build new hobbies and introduce it to them well. If you don't know how to hobby or the game, they are a great starting point. A lot of FLGS sadly don't end up too helpful in showing you how to hobby.
A note of warning: Scott’s cheque from ‘Lucasfilm Studios’ is likely to bounce unless it has been countersigned by the finance officer of Walt Disney Studios, of which Lucas has been a subsidiary since 2012. This would be a tragedy, as was said acquisition.
Keep up the great content gentlemen!
I'm just a painter now, the game (40k) is so so convoluted screw buying all the new rules every year is an awful feeling. Thankfully I have a grey back log to paint until retirement . It's a bitter experience I have been in the hobby for 30 years. Even the lore doesn't excite me like it used to and it's not just on me. It all feels diluted. Our pod are just mtg players now. I used to have an almost patriotic following of it all but here in the UK it's only competitive players left in my eyes.
You know what game system has none of these issues? OPR. They don't even need to advertise, they just make a better game.
You are right about the game but.... Not advertise? There is/was a TON of opr ads and sponsorships
Opr does a great kill team game but the main won't isn't good .
Its worse than 40k which it's self isn't a great game .
Opr just seems to be championed by the anti gw crowd , there's much better games out there then both opr or 40k
Word.
I've heard before that in the UK that Warhammer stores aren't for us. They're for Mums and kids. They have a role for GW but its audience dependent.
I think every painter, from the newest noob, to the greatest pro, should all get together for the next golden demon, and enter something that *has* to be disqualified. Force them to award someone regardless.
You know who else also has concise rules - OPR. I will keep championing them, because they've been doing this well for a long time.
Free rules (full rulebooks are ~£5) - rules are in one document, in one place to download.
Brower/app Army builder, with rules validation. All rules on the lists popup upon tap.
Rules don't drastically change all the time. (Usually ) small incremental changes.
Model agnostic, but with own brand models if you want. All models are 40k compatible, so just play in the 40k universe but with their rules.
If you add the advanced rules, it's not that much less depth than 40k.
FAR fewer rules, in simpler language, that are more streamlined.
Your understanding of GW’s pricing controls is missing the race to the bottom that would be online retailers. If drop shippers could sell $1 over cost they would and every hobby shop that needs to make a little margin to survive would struggle.
Yes, there are some negatives for shops, but it’s also a prevention against them making short-sighted decisions.
@1:37:00 as I'm painting pink space marines lol!
I go to my local Warhammer store once a month for the free mini. For everything else, I go to a couple FLGSs run by friends.
Sweet baby Jesus! We went from “Games outside the GW ecosphere” just a few months ago to “We effin’ hate Warhammer!!!” What did I do to you guys?!?! 😂 😂😂
When it comes to magic, isn't pre-release just a release?
I made a post on Reddit the other day that took off, with my comparison of 40k and AOS and why I think AOS is more "fun" I feel like this is totally on the same energy
Edit dude wth did you guys read it or something, had a picture of what looked like a goblin casting a meteor shower