Exhaust testing - Gold 4age - Dyno tested
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- Опубліковано 30 січ 2021
- Throwing random shapes and mufflers in the exhaust of my 4age test engine.
with 193b cams, mild port work, long runner ITB's, headers
Help me make more vids, grab some merch: teespring.com/stores/garage4age
Insta : @garage4age
@Garage 4age - Авто та транспорт
Love that there's still some love for the 4ag. Nearly 20yrs ago my first car I used on track days (back in Aus) was an AE92 hatch that was originally a base model (no ac, no power steering, solid front discs and drum rears!) that the previous owner had swapped in a silver top 20v. I absolutely loved thrashing that car and taking it for later night mountain runs in the middle of the week when there's no other cars around. Especially on the very cold nights when I swear I could hear a difference in the way it ran/sounded. All sorts of budget mods and upgrades were done and tried on that car, nothing that unlocked magical amounts of power but all great fun! Later I helped a friend build a lotus 7 replica (think Caterham) completely from scratch and we used a silver top for that. With the aim of later modifications (and awesome looks) I designed a custom set of headers with equal length 2"primaries, everyone laughed and thought that with the std engine/ECU (needed for initially getting road registration) it would either run like a pig or have worse low down torque etc etc. When finished and run on the Dyno it actually made 2kw more than my AE92 despite having more drivetrain loss. I was very proud (and a little surprised, everyone has me convinced it was going to be terrible). Sounded awesome and looked amazing.... Very formula Atlantic :) anyway..... Great content and love your experiments!
4:49 lmao i thought this pull was an actual dyno run i was like "is it making like 500hp now wtf" 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I made long tube headers that go the full length of my car. Would love to see you do it and see the massive horsepower loss or increase they made
Probably not enough to offset the weight but I'm curious, as well.
if properly made with tune, 10-20% power gain
The sound a 4 banger on straight pipe roaring on the track is orgasm
Awesome video 👍
Just found your channel. As an engine builder/tuner the way your doing your work here is absolute gold. Back to back testing, like for like testing, everything, all and any changes make a difference. Keep it up bud, I'm glued from now on.
Simple and impressive work.
Best video yet! I think you're on to something mate
Based on 3"muff into 60mm vs open header, the pipe clearly isn't a restriction, its all about resonance and reversion.
On my moto, I made a custom header that everyone said would be too big, but it worked amazingly well for increasing midrange power.
Stock was 38mm and I went up to 44mm but I also added a chamber off the side of also 44mm pipe, at 140mm long, closed at the end, but it had a 6mm hole drilled into the pipe
From what I understand, the diameter of the access hole determines the amount of boost the chamber gives, and the size of the chamber determines the frequency(rpm) that it boosts at.
Im thinking that as has been mentioned, try a few different short lengths off the header like 12" seems common for v8 dyno runs, pick the length at which that peak is either enlarged or at least not dropping, and then perhaps put that resonator chamber at that point. I think they call them J pipes usually used for cutting out drone at the rear end, but curious if it would help power if used at the header end.
Interesting. Yeah will be trying some more stuff between header and first reso.
This is getting absurd. I love it. Keep up the dumb work!
interesting. Try open headers with various lengths of collector extensions.
Good idea and megaphone power chamber can be added to collector also.
Thats the plan at this point. going to attempt building a megaphone as well
@@Garage4age is it the glass packing in the 3” muffs knocking down the pressure waves? Is that thought?
This is exciting
@@overr8ted2 Yeah that seems to be whats happening, getting everything correct before it will be key.
man you are a legend
Just throwing some random junk in the exhaust, to see what happens. Nothing too scientific going on here. But found something that maybe worth chasing along the way.. Got some ideas to try? throw them down below, megaphones, peach cans...? Bean cans are more suitable for exhaust side I'm thinking
My 80s DR200 header pipe has a vestigial 2nd pipe coming off it. A 2nd header pipe that starts as close to the real one as possible and extends about 3/4 of the pipe. its the same diameter and capped off at the end. Apparently tricks the reversion into thinking the pipe is twice as big or something as well as make the exhaust quieter. only used for a couple years so probably definitely worth doing
Such a small horsepower motor it will not affect much ...spay it with nos already
@@tortron Until they realized the xr200 with blown out muffler was getting all the sales, with its wrath of noise and such power. could be interesting to try. was going to attempt to do similar thing on hilux to try kill the exhaust drone
What if you try using test pipes right after collector, before normal exhaust system. Lets say 63mm, 60mm, 55mm and 50mm, and all in lenghts of 75cm to 50cm to 25cm
@@evankehagias Too easy. It all scales up, multiply the gains by 4 or something, if want to know what the gains would be on a ls or something
Awesome as usual bro, your shirt should arrived soon, thanks
I made a 4-1 header to 3" and 2,5 after the high flow cat. i have not dyno tested yet but feels like it's not too bad after seeing this. 1.8 20v carbed vw
Great video as always. I would be very interested in seeing if an anti reversion system on the exhaust would help!
I'd like to see the effect of different diameter exhaust systems. Like: 1.5 inch, 2 inch and 4 inch.
Chair mechanics: "N/A ENGINES NEED BACKPRESSURE!"
Open headers: "hold my 3" exhaust"
Really like this channel. And I dont even have a 4age hahahaha ✌
Same here
Thanks, I try not to make the vids too 4age specific. I'm just a weirdo with a collection of them 😂
@@Garage4age keep em coming😎👍
Lo mejor en la red con la verdad demostrada en de dinamómetro acaba con los mitos
Great content as always! Please keep it coming 👌🏻
Straight through 3" pipe with big mid muffler/resonator... (Cone entry and cone exit style of muffler)
Awesome test! Keep going! And greetings from Ukraine! ;)
Nice ²!
Try different anti reversion chambers? Usually right at the end of the collector
the pulses from the intermittent expels of exhaust gases cause pockets of vacuums every time the valves shut, this vacuum travels down your manifold and mixes with every cylinder. the vacuum from one header helps to pull the gas from the next but its all about timing. 2 strokes are a great example of high reving tiny exhausts. and this vacuum effect is the reason they have funny looking "expansion tanks". there's more too it but if you try brining one cone larger and then one smaller again that could be interesting. or play with your manifold length too. thats fairly interesting to watch though. id love to see how back pressure could affect its mid range
fire extinguisher is lit
as said try collector extensions to open headers then when optimal length is found add a pressure wave termination box (big volume like large fire extinquisher) on the end of extensions
Okay now my 2.0l needs that 3" system i was planing!
Show 👍
HI Love ur video,anychance you can try to put a old turbo on the exhaust,like exhaust in exhaust turbine then feeding compressor OR other way around ,im curious to see if it creat a scavaging effect or choke down engine lol i feel like you the right guy to ask
These straight-thtu mufflers give the best sound, but here in canada you get a ticket for that. Cherry bomb glass packed muffler are best sounding.
Each time an exhaust has a change in diameter it will send a negative pressure wave back to the exhaust valve, if the pressure wave is timed correctly you will have an exhaust scavenging affect that will evacuate the remaining gasses more completely, if it times with intake/exhaust valve overlap you can even pull some fresh air into the cylinder. It's possible to increase the volumetric efficiency with the right exhaust length. The exit of the exhaust is the biggest diameter change so you get the largest net increase with a tuned exhaust length.
Best way to test this would be modeling the exhaust velocity in a program but you could trial and error it with and equal length 4 to 1 header into a pipe with another pipe slipped over that one that you can just slide to adjust.
Gonna need a video on that hammer welding technique at 6:00
The stillson/pipe wrench is key to the technique. i cant let out too many more secrets
@@Garage4age Master has to have some secrets ;)
if you work with cone , put it on the end(opened cone) but do not make too steep and too big cone because exhaust gasses are under pressure but not on too big pressure and therefore it could go with supersonic speed but only if nozzle is right shaped
So, if header gets a chance to get into big muffler after merge, and later into the small exhaust it still flow decent enough? Or muffler were at the back?
Man I love this channel. No bulls#@t, just testing and results.
Would consider ending one of the biggest debates over the years? Split dump vs bellmouth vs bellmouth with devider?
The split has some key points like velocity stacks though. Like, the pipes should expand to full exhaust diameter gradually (low angle long cone) and the separated gases shouldn't rejoin until approx. 18inches. From reading a WRC tech article.
Are you talking intake bellmouth? Got a link?
No, post turbo exhaust@@jamesford3549 .
Just search, "split dump, bellmouth dump and bell mouth dump with divider".
@@jamesford3549 I only mentioned intake trumpets as a reference because there is a science and performance difference to the length and profile. As applies when making a split dump that re-enters further down the exhaust. About 18inches from some rally research paper I read.
Thanks, what website, loads of forum results for that
Is this an attempt at the "pressure wave termination box" concept?
I briefly ran a full exhaust with nothing but pipe all the way to a stock muffler at the back and at a certain RPM the reverberation was so bad that I could feel the buzzing through the accelerator pedal. Then I gutted an old resonator and put it in under the passenger footwell and it smoothed the whole engine out quite nicely.
Would be interesting to see if/how much power it loses running a cat
Keep up the interesting work!
Off topic but what about alternator loss, battery charge, if it's full or down?
Bud not much is going to matter after the first abrupt opening.
Any changes are going to occur in the resonance based on the location of that abrupt opening.
So for instance, where you had your open headers, if you put your expansion or chamber there and then run whatever exhaust that flows well enough after that point it should look similar to your open headers. Maybe give that a try since the open headers seem to do the best.
All you really need to do is stall the exhaust wavefront by having it expand and open up, so the exhaust between the ports and that expansion have somewhere to reflect off of.
Next step would be to try a slider.
Engine: =====[|||||||]============={atmos}
Engine: ====={atmosphere}
Those should look similar in pulse tuning.
Now get pipes that slide in each other and find out which spots that expansion. Needs to be in, and slide it as you dyno see if you can make a variable exhaust "collector" :D
Yep, work in progress
Try to test fuel temperature effect on power, cooler fuel cools the charge of air as its mixed in the way to the cylinders and should make more power, there are very few tests about this.
This may be one reason E85 makes more power even in not knock limited engine naturally aspirated engine.
Test full exhaust 3.5" and 1000cc injektions and turbo
try header exit dia -> +5mm -> +5mm toyota does this on some of its NA "performance" cars
since you like dyno a lot, you should try to fabricate or buy hondas cone exhaust manifold used in dragrace. it looks a bit like 2stroke exhaust. static pressure / vacuum test looked promising
Im about to build a megaphone out of fire extinguishers. will see how that goes, before resorting to honda parts 😂
Where in NZ are you based? Would love to catch up at some stage and see what you're doing.
Awesome videos. Try oval pipe after header is suppose to convert to laminar flow gases that exit easier
my normal exhaust is actually oval to first muffler
@@Garage4age... Other setup... Put the cone next to header merge 4 to 1 in order to gain scavenge with exhaust pulses
im building a megaphone setup to try atm,
Collector extensions on open headers make a big difference to low speed power, I'd try varying lengths around 1m and see if it can fill in that void that the open headers had at around 2-3.5k rpm.
I wonder if moving any resonators/ expansion chambers to the end of the system would help, if the exhaust gas has less energy back there it wouldn't create such a big reverse pressure wave.
What does the normal 3" system look like? Does it have anything in it that would cause the power dip at 4-5k due to reversion?
Tbh i would take that hit in the 2-3.5k area, that the open headers have, for the gains after it. as never use wot down it those revs anyway. the muffler/reso (not the open chambers) seems to be key to kill the waves, so yes placement of the first reso and the pipe before it seem to be the area to work on. the whole setup already works a lot better than pretty much every cam'd 4age ive seen, so im really chasing the little bits. The muffler looks to be killing all the good waves along with bad. probably why the open headers win between 4-5000. the normal 3" is kinda similar to the last pipe i tested in this vid, but the distance between headers and first muffler is longer. and of course carries on 3" rest of way.
Have you ever experimented with anti reversion cones on the intake and or exhaust? I have found some torque on the bottom using them on some setups. Don't size them to restrict anything.
If you watch this vid it shows the adapter i use from my headers to 3" system. It kinda works like one. the 2.5" collector sticks through the 3" section. ua-cam.com/video/UAyP7YJQ8Kg/v-deo.html it shows what it does with the open header. i haven't tried anything per runner.
Science
It would be good to see if extractors built 4 into 2 into 1would do to your power curve.
It's funny that all the different dyno runs in this video didn't make big drops in the top end compared with some of the drops in the mid range or bottom.
Will probably do some stuff on extractors further down the track. I've got a few ideas i want to try
You could show the effets of température of air intake 😊
This one was fun to watch lol. I like watching you fabricate stuff. Maybe next time try a slow increase or decrease in diameter from beginning to end of the exhaust piping? Slowly increasing diameter from one end to the other may help with scavenging, decreasing may help with maintaining exhaust gas velocity..? I remember installing an Apex'i exhaust on a turbo eclipse that slowly stepped up from around 2-1/4" at the flange to 3" at the muffler. They claimed it helped, but it may have just saved them money over full 3" piping, who knows. Also, if you contact some exhaust manufacturers in your country, they may send you some new parts to help, like tubing or mufflers. Not sure if you could convince someone to ship free stuff overseas, though.
I'm curious...did you like the sound of any of these configurations over the others?
The bit where i hit stuff with pipe wrench? 😂 yeh will be trying more stuff. the double straight through's actually sounded decent, still bit loud though, id rather just the intake noise
@@Garage4age Not what I meant when I said it, but the part where you whacked a bunch of metal and came out with a perfectly welded cone cracked me up lol
Maybe goof off and see if an extremely long straight resonator/muffler reduces horsepower and measure dB at the exhaust exit?
I built unequal headers for my car. I feel like I lost a good amount of horsepower. Long tubes rock tho!
-Crossplane Saturn SL2
The ultimate exhaust build... so you don’t have too
try a "racing" head.with carburators
next record from the exhaust
my curiosity, do you have test, stock engine power, then add better exhaust manifold, then ITB´s, then some cams..I mean would be worth??
I was search if you had some dyno testing from then to see result??
Not 100% stock. but this engine started off with stock cams and intake a few vids back. i didn't have any stock parts for the exhaust side, and head has some port work. playlist here starting from when i built it: ua-cam.com/play/PLCZDwNynUKJMA2D7m1pP9BjKKQ9sNqRVp.html
What provokes the biggest power losses
Catalytic converter or muffler? I'm talking about an 20 y/o Citroën Saxo. Would be nice to test that out ✌️
cat. converter
Was it you in the Orange Starlet at 4's and Rotary over last weekend? I wanted to say hi but don't want to be awkward lol
Good call, it probably would have been awkward. because wasn't me haha
Yes, it was really bhwuuaaaaaa, BHWUAAAAA :-) I would like to make a symbolic paypal donation, your videos are like a mix of documentary, cinema and museum, so I would like to pay a ticket.
Haha thanks. Maybe grab a few stickers or something, if would like to help me make more vids. If you dont like them you can always find some honda's to stick them on
I've always wonered what a two stroke resonator would do to a four stroke, not sure a 4 pot would be the easiest engine to test it on though
nothing because 2s res. works to rebound ex gas from cylindre and makes more compression and work only on one rpm, nothing before or after
Have u ever compared 2.5" vs 3" for exhaust? Always hear 2.5 being better for NA 4 cylinders but I'm curious since you're running 3"
If you watch this video and the the one previous to it i run a 60mm exhaust vs the 3" what ive found is the first part of the exhaust is critical. after first muffler not so much. going big all the way after collector is the easy way to make things work. only drawback is the weight
What does the baseline 3" system consist of just a pipe and muffler?
The baseline is the 60mm. The normal 3" i compare it to at the end of vid, is 3inch all the way, has 2 straight through reso/glass packs and a more traditional style muffler at the rear that has internal diameters of at least 3"
Patiently waiting delivery of my stickers...
can you explain what are the differences coming from? are they just because you are restricting flow or does resonance play a big part in the changes?
its to to with the pressure waves. as you can see in the vid, the muffler kills the peaks and dips. the open chambers don't
@@Garage4age cool. I work with 2strokes which make most of their power from the exhaust pressure waves. Cool to see that it affects 4strokes as well
Drill a small before the back box weld or braz a small metal or copper pipe from it to a clear plastic pipe in a u shape add water to the u of the pipe for ever horse power you need 2.2 cm per bhp so a 130 bhp engine should have 286 cm of water push up the clear pipe find a back box the gives you 286 cm back pressure that's how to tune a exhaust
Have you got a link that shows this? Sounds interesting
@@jamesford3549 you'll get it in a book by David vazard mini
Gotta try oil and fluids to get more drag HP - Bizzy said he has gotten 15 hp from fluids - would love to see someone dumb enough to try it! (And - no fab work! Wahoo!)
drain them all out ? 😂 definitely something in oil viscosity, as power changes with temp / oil thinning out. I have a vid on that if you haven't seen it already
@@Garage4age I agree on oil, what about diff fluid and trans fluid? Is there something there that can help HP (thick fluid costs energy to spin especially at high RPM) - just ideas I guess
Put the box Or muffler in the same place as the open header exit....
You may have already answered this, I tried looking down in comments but couldn't see. What's with the dips in torque and power lower in rev range?
pressure waves. you can see when i add the straight through mufflers it kills them. its much more pronounced on an engine with decent amount of cam overlap. In an ideal world would grab all the peaks an none of the dips. this vid i was just throwing random stuff at it to see what it would do. will be working towards trying to grab some of that bottom end the open headers gained.
@@Garage4age ha thought it might be so... My undergrad dissertation was the design of a race car's intake and exhaust, tuning the runner length to time pressure waves for peak power. We did it all in Lotus Engine Sim and on an engine dyno.... Prefer your more hands on approach! Keep up the good work!
@@findlay234 Nice. Yeah sucker for punishment doing it the hard way.
Do open headders, but take a chunk of parafin, sex wax o what ever, rubb them on the straight pipe, from the headder to tail, run on dyno 2 times, look where the parafin melt, and cut the rest, this make a straight pipe exact, for engine needs, and dyno again
Sorry mi inglish
Catalytic Converter vs Non-Cat ?
and race-cat
Why is that even a suggestion?
Invert the cone position and test
Angle too steep. Have another under construction to go the other way. may use that cone as reverse cone.
What do you think about prediction software for exhaust length and diameters?
TBH I haven't used them, other than a few basic calculators found around the net. I'm sure some will get pretty close. but testing on engine is going to be needed as well, since so many variables
@@Garage4age I think the way is to perform a lot of predictions and then to real world testing the predictions. A lot of stuff to insert in this software... shall I contact you somehow and show you something?
@@TurboAcki Yeah agree, pretty much what i was trying to say. garage4age@gmail.com if you want to email me
i wonder if we could put a vvt-i pulley on intake cam.....
That may or may not be the reason why i built this junk engine..
@@Garage4age I wish I was a welder like you.
Put helmholtz, exhaust
what ecu are you using?
link g4
Turn your cone thing around
In the video after this
Did dingo supply the goods?
classic dingo retrieving the wrong tools for the job
Have you ever done tests with a relieved flywheel?
what do you mean buy relieved? This engine has the toda 3.7kg flywheel off my good engine on it. haven't tested against stock on dyno. but it makes a big difference on the road/track
@@Garage4age here in Brazil we say "relieved" when we put a lighter flywheel.
i have an opel c20xe engine and it comes original with 9.2kg and went down to 7kg, as i took the gear to fix the gear hitches, i'm going to take and take more weight, but i was in doubt how much to take. I can get material out of it on the lathe
I thought that's what you may have meant. I like how they drive with a light flywheel, even my 4wd has a light flywheel in it, rev out much faster. be careful not to weaken it if a cast item
@@Garage4age thanks for answering! about weakening it I can get it out of a place that has plenty of material! continue with your videos I'm watching here from Brazil ..
Valve overlap more or less :D
How about an anti-reversion chamber at the end of the header? hosting.photobucket.com/albums/tt279/swatson454/Anti_ReversionChamber_zpsec9abb53.jpg
supposedly it gives you free horsepower, i'd like to see a before and after dyno test of this
If they were farther from the header they'd probably be even more effective
Hey bro, is that a civic radiator?
sure is
Cool! 🍻I love your channel.
To everybody watching this channel...
You are my kind of people!
Есть кто из наших?)
+
Есть!
Hate intro
Yeah no need to have a cry about it on all my videos