David Bentley Hart in conversation with Tony Golsby-Smith - Part 3, Why did the wrong guy win?
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- Опубліковано 29 чер 2024
- Why did the wrong guy win? The Disastrous results of the rivalry between two visions of God
www.gospelconversations.com welcomes you to the third talk on Gregory of Nyssa between Tony Golsby-Smith and David Bentley Hart. The towering genius of Augustine casts a long and too often dark shadow over western Christianity. What would Christianity have looked like if the equal genius of Gregory had achieved such dominance? Why did the wrong guy win? Tony and David rove over these questions in a riveting conversation.
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This is a long and densely argued discussion so we have divided it into ‘chapters’ to help you navigate the talk.
Chapters
00:00:00 Tony’s introduction; the dark side of the mind
00:06:07 Augustine’s towering genius & personality
00:08:22 The Confessions: Augustine’s troubled soul
00:16:20 The late Augustine’s terrible vision
00:28:50 How Augustine founded the theory of ‘holy violence’
00:32:00 Tracing the history of Augustine’s ‘total’ influence on Western Christianity
00:49:11 How Augustine’s view of ‘divine sovereignty’ corrupted our modern vision of freedom
00:59:00 The two great rival visions of God - good news or bad news
01:07:00 What would Christianity have looked like if Gregory’s vision had won the day?
01:17:00 How western Christianity created the modern world - and its own destruction
History will prove DBH to be one of the greatest thinkers this world has ever produced. We really are lucky to have him in age which provides us access to his thought in person like this, in addition to his written word. This man made me rethink my faith in God. A faith I lost due to the Western fundamentalism/evangelicalism based on some warped ideas of Augustine, Aquinas and Calvin, which, with the zeal of a new convert, I lapped up early on then came to be repulsed by as time passed by. Thanks Dr Hart, and thank Mr Golsby-Smith for hosting and posting these talks.
He's pretentious jargon generator.
@@newlin83 now look, the whole history of Earth and beginning and diversity of life present and future of mankind compiled in a book (don't know how many pages the Bible) it's woefully reflected , his creation is defective.. Malfunctions, detect narcissism, vain_glory caprices whims self_absortions. Your God is not a major God.
@@newlin83 l vowed myself never embroil in a polemic with the zealot, well I'm welcome now your ex tensional views, necessary and contingent being(s) just prior to that weigh in reciprocal interactions between him and his subordinates, stakes are incaluably great and poignant, if you're in his shoes will you satisfy yourself putting all your eggs in. A one basket, or rest upon your last laurels, I'd expect steady state is more credible theory than big-bang all because big-bang sound a thought process, your God amids the mist if time????! Cannot utter to himself'let there be light, space, galaxies planets earths and humans,... Its a progressive increments Do not augur with his character since his immutable if he's exist his parts not made of esoteric material. .
@Prottasha Pijush if you may highlight your standing point then l might answer you, if your God ordains dictates what to wear how to wear, what to eat, when and how to pray then l call him invasive tyrant and minor God :prove me wrong!!!!!
Is there a great book of his to start with if I am in a similar place as you were?
DBH gives me hope.
I appreciate David Bentley Hart because of what he says about God's goodness. It is partially because of him I have remained a Christian. I always say to my conservative Evangelical friends here in America that if God is all powerful but not good (I don't believe that) i am not worshipping him. I would be an antitheist.
If not all powerful then can it be said that there is none more powerful ? Please
This was a good talk, but it was also sad and stark, the Western image of God that came from late Augustine almost requires atheism as a moral response.
Damn! 😳. No pun intended. That’s a powerful statement you made.
It just doesn’t get any better than David Bentley Hart! Thanks for the great series of discussions. Hope there will be more.
David’s book, That All Shall Be Saved, is much needed balm for the soul. I’m not a theologian, but it made perfect sense to me. Probably his critics have not understood his argument because they simply don’t want to.
Roland In Moonlight, is also an absolute delight, and features the best, scathing description of Trump I have yet come across. David really is a living treasure. Can’t wait to get my hands on his next book.
@Tony Golsby-Smith
That’s good news! Thanks for letting me know. I am already tuning in to listen to other presentations. By the way, I am always one L short of normal.
That All Shall Be Saved changed my life. And saved it in many ways. A must read.
His unreasoning criticism of Trump which sent him into the arms of the secular progressives who booed and jeered the mention of God at their political convention, is a black mark on David Bentley Hart and unfortunately taints his record of clear thought. The Democrats are openly hostile to Christianity and there is no excuse for any Christian to ever endorse a Democrat.
Not to readers who can't comprehend nuance: I did not say Trump was good nor did I say Republicans are good. I said Democrats are antiethical to Christian faith. It's bizarre how some people in modern times are completely incapable of seeing anything in terms other than 100% black or 100% white. I can complain about Democrats without supporting Republicans.
@@patrickbarnes9874
Actually, David Bentley Hart has not endorsed the Democrats and has stated quite clearly that he is loathe to cast a vote for either party. In fact, he is quite scathing in his criticism of the Democrats as well, so DBH has not earned himself a black mark.
@@normaodenthal8009 I can respect that DBH does not endorse Democrats. As a Democrat myself I respect his critiques of the Democratic Party.
I think his scathing criticism of Trump and the Democrats is an indication of his genuine and real and spirit lead approach to being Christian. He does not cave in to the deeply anti Christian values of so-called conservative or right wing so-called Christianity.
What a thoroughly fascinating and uplifting conversation!Thank you so much,gentlemen!
Many thanks for this genuinely evangelical conversation. From the historical panorama to peering into the hearts and logic of Christianity’s tectonic figures, all done in the calm excitement of exposure to God’s limitless love -truly, Good news.
@Tony Golsby-Smith I second that.
Thank you. My first time listening to an actual theological scholar. Lots of food for thought.✝️
Thank you so much!! Big DBH fan here, but it's often hard to corral his pedantic brilliance. You gently provided him with perfect guard trails.
Far and away this is the best conversation of the 3 but all were great. Really enjoyed this. Thank you:)
@Tony Golsby-Smith Yes, much agreed, Tony! There is still so much I'm learning but have been sturdy in my belief of all being reconciled back to God probably since I was a teenager but definitely my eyes opened much more in the mid 2000's. I've been binge reading universal salvation (I've become a pretty giant nerd about it!) and I've been hooked for some time! Best to you and thanks for replying back to me!:)
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A wonderfully coherent and entertaining conversation in 3 parts. Even if you are not as educated in early patristics (like me) there is much to glean from this.
Thanks for the ride!
1:00:17 "If that's the gospel, may Christianity die": totally agree
Brilliant
Thank you, David!
Would it be fun or difficult to have a friend as brilliant as DBH, I love the guy but it has to be difficult to have a friend of his ilk, truly brilliant and he challenges you to be smart too, as to the brilliance of Augustine, and his writings, all one can say is wow !!!! Augustine and his work on the Trinity is simply amazing, a far as I am concerned, no one comes close to laying out that doctrine as thoroughly and compellingly as he does in his On The Trinity, translations are very important and you have to get a great version. City of God was just too difficult to grasp for me, however do yourself a favor and get his On the Trinity, Also Hart, and his earlier work Beauty Of The Infinite, is another book that is a must read, it is a difficult read, but you have to give it a look see, great book.
Why did the wrong guy win? Isn't that the nature of life here on earth, where the wrong guy almost always wins?
Heading: "Why did the wrong guy win?".
Question: "Why such a wrong headed heading?"
I would argue that in mainstream Sunni Islam God is also seen primarily in terms of power. Sherman Jackson says that the _grundnorm_ of Ash'ari theology is God's omnipotence. Al Ghazali, who was a proponent of Ash'ari thought, said that God could, if he wanted, send all the righteous people to Hell forever and all the sinners to paradise forever- and that there would be no injustice in this! It seems to me that if your picture of God is based on the primacy of God's power then its inevitable that it will be a perverse picture.
There is certianly a strong dose of voluntarism in Ash'ari theology. But Ash'arism was not nearly as influential in Islam as Augustine's theology was in Christianity. The Sufi turuq were arguably far more important in shaping the tenor of men and women's understanding of and relationship with the Divine than any of the schools of kalam.
@@vampireducks1622 Ash'arism wasn't as influential in shaping Sunni Islam as Augustine was in shaping western Christianity; that's true. Nonetheless, Ash'arism is the principal school of Sunni Islam, with Muturidism not far behind, so I would say that it did have a significant impact on shaping Sunnism. With regards to Islam: I think you are right that Sufism did have more of an influence on Muslims than any school of Kalam; nonetheless, sufism was itself very much influenced by Ash'arism. Ibn Arabi, for instance, was a kind of voluntarist and occasionalist, as was Rumi (if one reads the Mathawi carefully). Its a complex picture.
St Augustine was one of the great and beautiful spirits of all time ...
Yes he was. He was also wrong about some key things. Still awesome though.
Beautiful spirit asking the emperor to slaughter his adversaries..Ok.
@@verdi2310 Nobody's perfect.
What is the difference between Augustine and Gregory? Augustine: Jesus saves us from God's wrath. Gregory: Jesus saves us from the death caused by Adam and Eve. It seems to amount to the same thing. After all, who is in charge? But, perhaps Hart is talking about a difference in emphasis.
I am with David B Hart in relation to his notion of universal salvation but I cannot help wondering why providence permitted "the wrong guy to win" and therefore for millions of Christians to be profoundly misguided?
I think the Eastern notion of Karma can explain it quite well. Essentially, it won because people wanted it to. It held a greater, more compelling attraction to them. The way Karma figures into this is that it contains the notion of a universal law by which spiritual beings, like humanity, must act out, exhaust, and overcome their negative Karma (their evil or disordered attachments), and that God or a Higher Power may assist in this process, but can't merely annul it by a divine decree. This was not merely a doctrine than out-reasoned another doctrine in the theological schools and pulpits; it was a manifestation of a great number of people's collective spiritual delusions, of their Karmic bondages. We might ask for example why Wahabbism takes only the most degenerate forms of Islam and makes a creed out of that: it's because that's what many souls want, they simply like that kind of ruthless patriarchalism and self-righteous warmongering. Similarly, a great portion of Christianity has gone in for infernalism and fundamentalism because it feels good to hold that kind of threatening power and exalted sense of over-bearing righteousness over others. This is not just a matter of God "permitting" people to be misguided or hold bad notions; it's that God must, in a way, tolerate people's errors so that they can overcome them and grow up in a spiritually organic way. Admittedly, it's easier to see the logic in all this if you believe in reincarnation, and see souls as coming back here again and again until their Karma has been fully played out.
I'm any case, we can see in the history of Christian mystics and spiritual writers that many souls were never truly caught up and bound in this bad "Karmic" manifestation of infernalism. They lived around it but it never really entered inside them, at least not in a practical or spiritually damaging way.
My guess? to value and appreciate the truth, alongside knowing the true consequences of lies perpetuated by dogmas and political powers that make no sense but we force ourselves to belive. In other words: so that those who truly seek God and still have morals to find it and value it.
How can we truly understand how bad things can get if we have no example?
If "the right guy" won the debate, I still believe Christianity today would be just as messy and would be teaching and believing a myriad of things that just aren't true about God.
Or put another way, there's really only one thing that is wrong with us. And it's the first thing that was ever wrong with us. It's that we believe(d) something that wasn't true about The Truth, Him.
That's not all on Augustine. I'm Adam too. Lol
The Good news, No, the BEST news EVER is that He knows that about us and will reveal The Truth and with our own free will, we will no longer believe anything that's not true, about Him.
The wrong guy didn't win, becasue the game is not over. We are still in the dark ages. Jesus wins in the end!
I mean when you think about it, this isn’t a new problem. Think of all the cavemen, Muslims, pagans, people raised in cults etc. who have been left in the dark. Who are taught to believe in an idol. This is a part of providence that we are enslaved while in this world and the Truth WILL set us free.
I think I understand their arguments but what books explain this better from a Scriptural basis. Do any of Hart’s book help Protestants rethink this biblically?
Maybe "The Inescapable Love of God" by Thomas Talbott who is a protestant? Though DHB's own book, "That All Shall Be Saved" does a pretty good job in my uninformed opinion.
Hart’s book is thoroughly Scriptural.
He's a bright enough man for sure. I'd like to hear his rationale for the compulsory veneration of icons. Anyone got a reference or even a link?
In this particular video the subject is the nazist ideology known as calvinism.
@@verdi2310 Yeah, I gathered, but even so I'd like to hear him try and justify it
Does anyone know of an Christian Oneness Universalist theologian in the internet who does Not believe in the Trinity can you leave me a note ?
When listening to this you are caught in a thick tension between presentation difficulties and your own personal desire for enlightment. The sound is bad. Hart mumbles and rephrases. Tony can't seem to streamline his comments. I turned on captioning and that makes some parts clearer but over all added a droll dimension to the video. DBH says "eternal loss" and the caption had "eternal laws." I thought for a moment Hart had gone antinomian. I have yet to watch a video with DBH sitting at home where the sound was clear.
Let’s send him a quality microphone
@@jaslanr please!
Aquinas rivals Augustine right?
Did I catch that wrong, or did DBH say that every other theologian the west after St Augustine was a "footnote"? St Anselm? St Thomas Aquinas? Blessed Duns Scotus? to name a few...
He presumably means on the subject in question insofar as they followed Augustine's opinion.
Interesting that David finds full on double predestinarianism in Augustine. I'm not disputing him at all, but I had understood that Gottschalk was the first Western theologian to affirm the idea explicitly.
Perhaps because he considers that it follows naturally from what Augustine says, even though he doesn't outright affirms it. At least I see it that way from what I've read from Augustine and I've always found this rather telling in him. The fact that he wouldn't admit this actually suggests that he understood, deep down, that it was something atrocious, though he couldn't find the strength to back away from it after all the back and forth with Pelagius.
Augustine's Gallo-Roman critics thought he proclaimed a type of double predestination. That Augustine's insistence that God was not the cause of the damned's damnation for the damned were damned on account of their sins according to Aug. If you look at Prosper's quotations of predestination's critics - the Gallic and Vincentinian objections - they say explicitly the system makes God responsible for sin. Cassian makes a similar case in Conlatio 13.7 though without the humor of the Vincentinian critics and with a slightly different object. Most people who read Prosper's answers to those quotations I find to be confused about the actual objections that Prosper is answering. What Prosper is doing in those texts is quoting opponents and then through of sleight of hand setting up strawmen (id est anti-predestinarians see merits as seperate from grace) to argue against. That's my two cents at least.
Audio is lousy. What a waste
The Bible seems to teach the annihilation of the wicked that continue to stubbornly reject the light afforded to them.
Kudos to DBH for alluding to annihilationism in 1:11:55
Nothing will be lost
@@jaslanr Or perhaps nothing good will be lost and love with triumph in the end.
25 thinking about hell
There is no fundamental distinction between calvinism and nazism.a
I think Hart underestimates how much Cyril of Alexandria taught much of what's wrong with Augustine.
The "gangster bishop of Alexandria," as Fr Thomas Hopko described him.
@@alem8100 Such as he clearly was an infernalist. In fact he felt Augustine was too gentle in arguing for a Purgatory like state some sinners will be purged, however when Augustine explained to him that was only possible for the Baptized he calmed down a bit.
Augustine also influenced Cyril. One of the ways Cyril enlisted Rome's support is by coloring the Nestorian controversy as an extension of the Pelagian controversy. He knew what most interested the Latins at the beginning of the 5th c.
I wonder how much it can be traced back to St. Cyprian of Carthage. He wrote the book on exclusivism.
Truth be told and what was revealed to the prophets of old and what the book is declaring is NOT about The Father aka God who has an eternal demigod Son, and or who created a second person in the beginning in Heaven that was someone other than himself with a different will and mind that than created everything seen and unseen, but then sin entered into the world so the 1st, and or 2, and or, 3 person (which is still being debated if it is a person and if it be male or a female among some of the communities of the many professing bitheists, tritheists and limitarians) came up with a salvation plan where the second person was sent by the Big L LORD to come down from Heaven and manifest into the world in flesh to die for the sin of the world in order to offer salvation only to those who get to hear and believe the right facts about the nature of God, and or hear and believe his salvation plan in order to then receive the Spirit and Life and Love of God if they believe correctly to the end by trying to save themselves by using the knowledge of good and evil as they see it by proving they are worthy of being saved from being eternally consciously tormented by 1 of the 2 and or all 3 Lords, unlike the rest of the sinners that Jesus came into the world to save so they thank God that they are not unjust like the other sinners which Jesus saves to save, heal, and love because they were wiser which is BS since God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation and Jesus Christ has come in the flesh!
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1 Timothy 3:16) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: (Colossians 2:8-10) For it pleased the Father that in him(self) should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. (Colossians 1:19-20) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. (John 2:19) Jesus - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me...Jesus claimed that he draw all to himself when he was lifted up, but it should be noted that Jesus was not claiming that he would draw all with his physical hands that he made us a new man with and in, but rather Jesus was declared himself to be GOD. (John 12:32) In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: (Colossians 1:22) His Sight = JESUS.
Jesus is the 1 and only Lord God Almighty, he is the 1 Lord of glory and of hosts and the 1 Creator of ALL things seen and unseen, Jesus is the Father of Lights, and of spirits, and the giver of good and perfect gifts that are without repentance. Jesus is the 1 God (Holy Father) of gods, the 1 Lord of lords (The 1 LORD of ALL), and the 1 King of kings. Jesus is the 1 and only I AM that I AM, to be testified in due time, when all knees are bowed down to Jesus and every tongue is professing Jesus is LORD, there will be no more doubts on that day who the Father is, no one in their right minds will be asking Jesus when they see him on that day to show them the Father. For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. (Romans 11:36) Him = Jesus. The 1 Lord of reality and it shall come to pass that all shall declare unto him alone in truth and spirit "My Lord and My God are 1:)" and not just lord, lord, look at me, I believed and declared that you are 1/3 God and then changed my mind and decided you are only a demigod instead, and proclaimed that you are only save about 1/3 of the world and or those who were good like me.🤗
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