@@vilespecter plenty of people use these characters, look at peanut or SkyJay. Even some top players have used unpopular or "bad" characters like Dabuz or Wadi, you may not think about it because they have been so successful but people don't think that highly of those characters (Rosa and Mewtwo) and they are certainly not bracket staples.
No one in America "just picks up top tiers" I'm sure every single top player has tried a bunch of characters and whatever character they land on happens to be the most enjoyable and effective for them
Part of it is since there's no prize money, there's less of a stake in whether you win or lose. You can use whatever character you like and you won't be missing out on any money if you fail.
I don't quite get why players prefer Toon Link over Young Link. The latter has a better F-Smash and D-Air, and better projectiles in general. Is it a matter of raw damage?
Japan has always been the Toon Link region. They have most likely the best 3 Toon Links in the world, being Sigma, Lv.1 and Manzoku. They have another one which I can't remember but recently got 5th at a fairly large tournament.
@@csolisr Actually Toon has less Raw damage than Young Link. But Toon Link is more mobile though with his insane air drift. Also, Toon Link’s bomb into fair kill confirm is pretty much the simplest kill confirm to learn between all the Links, at least to me. I know Young Link has that too, but due to his mobility, it’s much easier to land with Toon Link. Also also, I’ve mained Toon Link since Brawl. So familiarity is a factor.
This tournament was crazy with upsets. Cosmos lost his first round and was out at 33rd place. Out of the Top 8 seeds, only HIKARU was not eliminated before Top 8, with Atelier at 65th, takera and Eim at 33rd, Shuton at 25th, KEN at 17th, and Umeki at 9th. The Grand Finals was between 15th and 24th seed.
Japan usually rates characters by how well players perform in torunaments. Guilty Gear has a similar "problem" where the Japan tierlists vastly differ from ones from the West and you see it's because their best players win tournies with x or y characters, not because of matchup flowcharts and etc
This is cap. Tournament results 100% factor into tier lists in the US. Ask anyone about Melee Falcon and they'll tell you since Falcon's don't win majors, he doesn't belong in the discussion of top three. Then also go check how Yoshi is now considered high tier solely because of aMSa when before he was considered mid for most of Melee's life span and even bottom tier at one point. The real reason you see discrepancies between regions is because of play style. Japan plays different from the US so both regions will consider certain characters good depending on if high skilled players are using them. It's the same for different countries in Europe. Even in the US itself playstyles can wildly vary based on region. We get plenty of data for the game early on and barring patches, the data doesn't really change yet tier lists do. The people and the experience from playing the game is what makes that change.
@@mcnichoj18 Melee falcon actually doesn't belong in top 3 is because he has matchup problems with fox, falco, and shiek. All of which are considered at the very least a 55-45 losing matchup for falcon. He has a 50-50 or slightly winning with marth and has a winning matchup against all characters below him. This is probably why mostly he places around 6,7 for tirerlists. Shiek has only won like 2-3 Supermajors in the last 10 years and she's still top 4 in melee.
Tournament results SHOULD influence how good a character is. If someone does well with a character, it shows that it's possible to do well with that character. And if a character is winning a lot at tourneys, that means that the character is good.
I never understood the lack of toon link love, he seems so obviously good. Good airiels with disjoints, good overall frame data, strong boxing and zoning, even a kill throw
I think his biggest issue is his reward on hit is kinda meh. Pretty much every high and top tier character in the game just makes you explode if you get touched, and if they don't then they can just keep you in disadvantage forever. Toon link just doesn't quite have the raw numbers to keep up. Not to mention that zoners in ult are typically mid tiers, with the few standouts (mainly Steve and Samus) having absolutely devastating damage and ledge trapping.
His lack of kill moves. Using TL as a Link main, feels like the usual kill moves that Link has (DAir, DSmash, FSmash, Fair, FTilt) had their kill power redistributed through all of TLs move set. Resulting in an averaging out of kill power. Not as bad as Mario and Pit, but not as great as Link and Young Link. But still one of my goto chars.
As much as people complain about projectile characters in this community, they always get surprised when one of those characters actually do good in tournament. I never understood that.
Damn that toon link tho. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT SENTENCE IN MY ENTIRE LIFE. That's insane for him to go up against a sonic and fight through the match-up. Big respect to that player.
So I can guess multiple reasons why we don't do Sudden Death, but what's the *actual* official reason TO's and pros have for not playing it out and just giving the game to the lower percent?
8:10 It's partially Masa cooking well and partially Yamanaction having no idea what he's doing half the time. As a Steve enjoyer, it's honestly kinda embarrassing seeing those training mode combos and randomly thrown out moves do well Those Roy games were pretty sick though ngl
@@xaviersavard6343 it's his midrange and very very far range that's his weakness, especially if you have long disjoints to harass him from that distance
@@xaviersavard6343 if you zone steve he will just camp behind a wall of blocks and mine. Rushing down with a fast character and long disjointed hitboxes like cloud or sephiroth is the best way to oppress him. I cannot think of one single zoner that has a winning match up against Steve
Blaster stops mining. And if falco gets in the combos are easy. Plus falco has a reflector, so its in his favor id say. But Steve can just not care if being played well enough.
Btw the toon link players name is pronounced mawn-zohkoo and is the Japanese word for satisfaction, which is pretty fitting for the characters performance honestly
One thing I respect the hell out of Japanese players for is they tend to actually edge guard and go off-stage to try and prevent the opponent from coming back, instead of just spamming a safe aerial at the ledge like a bitch.
Steve not banned and still a diverse top 16 just as always?? It’s almost like he’s not completely killing the meta as much as the 0-2ers would lead you to believe 💀💀💀💀
I'm telling you, Japan has an absolutely different meta aside from the USA. But USA wants to know how be like Japan's Meta so peace and harmony can be restored. I mean top players from Japan traveled to America to win tournaments, why can't they just tell america the comparison between their meta VS USA's meta, afterwards nobody in the smash community will never be toxic again. The End
Because the American meta is American-centric. All other non-American metas have to acknowledge the legitimacy of the American meta. You are not a great note worthy player until you win or beat American top players. This might not be as heavily pronounced in SSBU, but I remember how hardcore it was during the SSBM days.
fox back air is compleate garabage villager was on the edge of the stage jump straight up andf ot hit by a back air at 105 and villager is light and he still didnt die and he was at 122 percent after the hit that move is horendous!
Yo! You just gave me the sickest advice for my career low key 😂 I have my masters in arts marketing and run a social media marketing business - just looked into prompt engineering and I’m getting certified in it so I can add it to my business’ skill set - probs just bought me another 5+ years staying relevant and bringing in the dough 🙏
& whether it's Smash or Traditional Fighting games this is why I will always have more respect for Them than north America smashers. The Gannondorf army is the acception. Those dude gets my ultimate respect.
??? He was literally already top 100 with Luigi and arguably the best Luigi without Elegant? Don't talk randomly like you know something when you defo aren't
Feels like Japanese players just use whoever they like, aside the ones who are aspiring to be the absolute best so they pick up top tiers.
Everyone’s a top tier in Japan wym
I wish more of the US had this mentality, it would be alot more fun
@@vilespecter plenty of people use these characters, look at peanut or SkyJay. Even some top players have used unpopular or "bad" characters like Dabuz or Wadi, you may not think about it because they have been so successful but people don't think that highly of those characters (Rosa and Mewtwo) and they are certainly not bracket staples.
No one in America "just picks up top tiers" I'm sure every single top player has tried a bunch of characters and whatever character they land on happens to be the most enjoyable and effective for them
Part of it is since there's no prize money, there's less of a stake in whether you win or lose. You can use whatever character you like and you won't be missing out on any money if you fail.
As a Toon Link main, seeing top Toon Links in Japan makes me smile big.
I don't quite get why players prefer Toon Link over Young Link. The latter has a better F-Smash and D-Air, and better projectiles in general. Is it a matter of raw damage?
Ditto
Japan has always been the Toon Link region. They have most likely the best 3 Toon Links in the world, being Sigma, Lv.1 and Manzoku. They have another one which I can't remember but recently got 5th at a fairly large tournament.
@@csolisr Actually Toon has less Raw damage than Young Link. But Toon Link is more mobile though with his insane air drift. Also, Toon Link’s bomb into fair kill confirm is pretty much the simplest kill confirm to learn between all the Links, at least to me. I know Young Link has that too, but due to his mobility, it’s much easier to land with Toon Link. Also also, I’ve mained Toon Link since Brawl. So familiarity is a factor.
Toon link is smash most hype character!
This tournament was crazy with upsets. Cosmos lost his first round and was out at 33rd place. Out of the Top 8 seeds, only HIKARU was not eliminated before Top 8, with Atelier at 65th, takera and Eim at 33rd, Shuton at 25th, KEN at 17th, and Umeki at 9th. The Grand Finals was between 15th and 24th seed.
HBox I really enjoyed this simple editing style. It's so refreshing to not heard a sound effect or sudden transition every 3 seconds
Japan usually rates characters by how well players perform in torunaments. Guilty Gear has a similar "problem" where the Japan tierlists vastly differ from ones from the West and you see it's because their best players win tournies with x or y characters, not because of matchup flowcharts and etc
This is cap. Tournament results 100% factor into tier lists in the US. Ask anyone about Melee Falcon and they'll tell you since Falcon's don't win majors, he doesn't belong in the discussion of top three. Then also go check how Yoshi is now considered high tier solely because of aMSa when before he was considered mid for most of Melee's life span and even bottom tier at one point.
The real reason you see discrepancies between regions is because of play style. Japan plays different from the US so both regions will consider certain characters good depending on if high skilled players are using them. It's the same for different countries in Europe. Even in the US itself playstyles can wildly vary based on region.
We get plenty of data for the game early on and barring patches, the data doesn't really change yet tier lists do. The people and the experience from playing the game is what makes that change.
@@mcnichoj18 Melee falcon actually doesn't belong in top 3 is because he has matchup problems with fox, falco, and shiek. All of which are considered at the very least a 55-45 losing matchup for falcon. He has a 50-50 or slightly winning with marth and has a winning matchup against all characters below him. This is probably why mostly he places around 6,7 for tirerlists. Shiek has only won like 2-3 Supermajors in the last 10 years and she's still top 4 in melee.
@@mcnichoj18 yoshi
Tournament results SHOULD influence how good a character is. If someone does well with a character, it shows that it's possible to do well with that character. And if a character is winning a lot at tourneys, that means that the character is good.
@@justinkim3760 shiek is not top 4
I noticed that japan hasn't said much about Steve even though Acola is #1. Similar to Mkleo, I think maybe they want to beat everyone at their best.
Because Americans are used to whining ab everything
@@ntwrk56 when you remember Steve has a game breaking tech that no other character has
@10kdog5 When you remember it's easy to spot, therefore easy to ban, and almost impossible to do accidently
@@jaydenhohman2590 it's not easy to spot, especially at high percents
@@Xabieru ah yes not easy to spot someone tech the air
3:24
[Image of Minecraft Steve]
GOD WILL ALWAYS HAVE THE FINAL SAY.
Japan is like, Kirby is top tier
Obviously not top tier. But I feel like he's highly underrated. He just does terrible against swordies. That's it.
@@colinhoeg4728 And Samus
@@cheezypikle Not really... I'd actually say it's GAW
@@QueenofAgnus Kirby definitely loses to Samus
@@cheezypikle debatable. I feel like they go even if the Kirby knows how to move around the projectiles.
I keep forgetting HBox is actually an Engineer. The most random things keep reminding me.
I never understood the lack of toon link love, he seems so obviously good. Good airiels with disjoints, good overall frame data, strong boxing and zoning, even a kill throw
He's also floaty and doesn't have a very interesting gameplan with a linear recovery
I think his biggest issue is his reward on hit is kinda meh. Pretty much every high and top tier character in the game just makes you explode if you get touched, and if they don't then they can just keep you in disadvantage forever. Toon link just doesn't quite have the raw numbers to keep up. Not to mention that zoners in ult are typically mid tiers, with the few standouts (mainly Steve and Samus) having absolutely devastating damage and ledge trapping.
His lack of kill moves. Using TL as a Link main, feels like the usual kill moves that Link has (DAir, DSmash, FSmash, Fair, FTilt) had their kill power redistributed through all of TLs move set. Resulting in an averaging out of kill power. Not as bad as Mario and Pit, but not as great as Link and Young Link. But still one of my goto chars.
As much as people complain about projectile characters in this community, they always get surprised when one of those characters actually do good in tournament. I never understood that.
@bert damn brub you went for the throat
10:39 is the sickest kill splash screen ive ever seen
Damn that toon link tho. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT SENTENCE IN MY ENTIRE LIFE. That's insane for him to go up against a sonic and fight through the match-up. Big respect to that player.
Japan has its own meta.
Toon Link is really fun to use. I've been getting some crazy results with him lately.
I would love to see MASA and Motsunabe outside Japan. I would consider them on the same level as Tilde especially MASA
Acola doesn't just have Steve in his corner, but God, himself. :D
So I can guess multiple reasons why we don't do Sudden Death, but what's the *actual* official reason TO's and pros have for not playing it out and just giving the game to the lower percent?
That ending was so fucking tense, need more of that neck in neck smash
at 5:04 when box said 144 hikaru immediately went to 143 percent
Kept is so raw man, he just gets better character'd
If I collected all the dragon balls I would wish for villager to be a good character
@@strongbadman2 same
My ringtone is Ordinary Days by Klaus Veen because of Hbox and when it played in the video I checked my phone
Yes
8:10 It's partially Masa cooking well and partially Yamanaction having no idea what he's doing half the time. As a Steve enjoyer, it's honestly kinda embarrassing seeing those training mode combos and randomly thrown out moves do well
Those Roy games were pretty sick though ngl
The Falco game went so damn hard. I was popping off at all moments holy shit.
It's so nice to see this content outside of all the Nintendo drama on all fronts of UA-cam.
That bomb down throw into fair was SICK
Japan is the guy who closes its eyes and spins the globe to see where he is going in vacation, instead of a country, they choose a smash character.
If Steve wasn't banned, the meta would just have to change around his oppressive tools right? That means people can't keep relying on rushdowns.
Rushdowns are what counters steve
Thought it was zoning
@@Marco-er4ql yeah like Fox right?? 😂
@@xaviersavard6343 it's his midrange and very very far range that's his weakness, especially if you have long disjoints to harass him from that distance
@@xaviersavard6343 if you zone steve he will just camp behind a wall of blocks and mine. Rushing down with a fast character and long disjointed hitboxes like cloud or sephiroth is the best way to oppress him. I cannot think of one single zoner that has a winning match up against Steve
Hbox delivering solid insights into the Chem industry
Anybody know what the song at 2:20 is? I was tryna add it to my playlist 😅
Masa went nuts in this tourney, good tourney watch stream man
That ending really was sick as fuck
Does Falco do good against Steve?
I could be wrong but my guess it no. I feel like with Steve you have to outpace his busted frame data. Falco excels when he's in your face.
Falco is really good if he lands a hit and can get close. Steve is really good at not getting hit and shutting off Falcos gameplan.
I don't think so. Yamana just got outplayed.
Blaster stops mining. And if falco gets in the combos are easy. Plus falco has a reflector, so its in his favor id say. But Steve can just not care if being played well enough.
ua-cam.com/video/tijKmdMrM50/v-deo.html
could someone please share the link for the video he is watching?
Btw the toon link players name is pronounced mawn-zohkoo and is the Japanese word for satisfaction, which is pretty fitting for the characters performance honestly
Lmaoooo that was me asking about the calc two homework 😭😅
how'd u do
Acola has the power of god and anime on his side.
One thing I respect the hell out of Japanese players for is they tend to actually edge guard and go off-stage to try and prevent the opponent from coming back, instead of just spamming a safe aerial at the ledge like a bitch.
Steve not banned and still a diverse top 16 just as always?? It’s almost like he’s not completely killing the meta as much as the 0-2ers would lead you to believe 💀💀💀💀
Americans are entitled crybabies clearly
hbox just dropping casual STEM career advice on stream
god is good, god is great; god banned steve for us.
What a match between Toon Link and Sonic. O=
I'm telling you, Japan has an absolutely different meta aside from the USA. But USA wants to know how be like Japan's Meta so peace and harmony can be restored. I mean top players from Japan traveled to America to win tournaments, why can't they just tell america the comparison between their meta VS USA's meta, afterwards nobody in the smash community will never be toxic again. The End
"afterwards nobody in the smash community will never be toxic again" you wish it would be that easy
Take away the money. Cash prize tournaments are legally considered gambling in Japan and thus can't be present with anybody under 18.
Because the American meta is American-centric. All other non-American metas have to acknowledge the legitimacy of the American meta. You are not a great note worthy player until you win or beat American top players. This might not be as heavily pronounced in SSBU, but I remember how hardcore it was during the SSBM days.
lmaooo "depends on if its derivatives or integrals"
Is sonic banned next?
And then young link?
And then Kirby?
what tournament is this
Oh I didn't even know Hikaru played in tournaments. I've seen him in elite a lot.
Whoever said Toon Link was one of the best characters in the game was probably a Wind Waker fanboy
LETS GO 8 YEAR OLD ME WE KNEW TOON LINK WAS TOP 🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣
fox back air is compleate garabage villager was on the edge of the stage jump straight up andf ot hit by a back air at 105 and villager is light and he still didnt die and he was at 122 percent after the hit that move is horendous!
Meanwhile Falco bair hitting people in front of him from mid stage and killing 😅
God made hungry box
Dudes name is "Juan" and ya'll dont make jokes like "help me Obi Juan Konobi, you are my only help"
Uh oh, my lil bro ain't gon let me live this one down.
Culture wise too, notice how they’re all well dressed and look like they actually take care of themselves.
falco has always been s teir leffen was always right
Don’t go into prompting it’s already saturated
Everyone is Top tier in Japan
We NEED A Light vs Masa grand finals
I feel like there are two tier lists, Western and Japan.
In Japan, these people are cooking something filthy, something foul… something derogatory… 😂
Personally, I think we should’ve used the custom balance -3 on Steve and Kazuya, and run with that for a few months before trying to ban them
Honestly I didn’t know that was a feature for like 4 years
@@Jackscase Exactly why no one thought of this beside one UA-camr I think
This is interesting, but custom balance won’t stop PMLG from happening and PMLG is fundamentally broken.
@@lucastadesse2186 Easy solution for that, you can easily tell when someone uses it. So, just put out a rule saying you’re not allowed to use it.
@@lucastadesse2186 PMLG on a nerfed steve is even less of a problem than it already is.
Hikaru making ultimate DK look closer to PM DK
Y'ALL BEEN SLEEPING ON TINK I BEEN SAYING IT SINCE DAY 1
Made me laugh… cuz didn’t leffen have falco at S tier at launch XD hahaha
that comment he read about to be a copypasta
ive gotten everyone to ask for help with homework now
bruh box roasting the ChemEs
This is probably the only top tier villager player 3:06
im so happy Japan didn't follow that insanely dumb steve hate
I’ve been saying, Toon Link is top 3 just yall fuckin wait
Yeah. Japan knows what fundamentals are.
Fear the bird
Yo! You just gave me the sickest advice for my career low key 😂 I have my masters in arts marketing and run a social media marketing business - just looked into prompt engineering and I’m getting certified in it so I can add it to my business’ skill set - probs just bought me another 5+ years staying relevant and bringing in the dough 🙏
10:16 hbox casually teaching about prompting AIs... sadly the value of prompting will be extremely low... learn to code instead.
You should react to the Top 10 ClutchBox Moments video by GRsmash
3:35 I will say it does seem like a trend for smash players in their 20s to play with 7 year old boys. Buncha weirdos
Falco is definitely slept on. He beats a lot of the top tiers. (He just loses to low tiers)
Yeah he got that diddy syndrome 😂
& whether it's Smash or Traditional Fighting games this is why I will always have more respect for Them than north America smashers. The Gannondorf army is the acception. Those dude gets my ultimate respect.
I hate that time-outs are a viable way to win in this game. If your main way to win a fighting game is to NOT FIGHT, just play a different game.
DON'T PUT THEM ONTO FALCO HES GOATED
3:05 let me say congrats to a carried steve main Who was shit and now with steve wins everything HECK NO
He was top 3 in online playing luigi dude
also, he is a teenager, like, he never played Sm4sh
??? He was literally already top 100 with Luigi and arguably the best Luigi without Elegant? Don't talk randomly like you know something when you defo aren't
Combolic pog
Way to downplay Acola's achievement by claiming god made him win out of spite. XD
What a dumb message.
God vs every 9 year old. Who would win?
U go kept!
all steve players can do is mash or camp. if you're mad this idiotic character got banned i will be HAPPY to point and laugh while you seethe and mald
kinda messed up that ultimate is so degenerate that toon link is hype
look at the lil boomerang man go haha
Toon mains RISE UP
Fatbox ain't even watching 😂
LETS GO TOON LINK
We love tink
Steve is god's greatest creation AMEN
nice
They think Toon is best link, they cray cray
Early gang!
First person on an Hbox vid
NO MATTER WHERE YOU ARE there are always sonic players Who Just care to win with a baby b*tch char
No shot wanting to win at a tournament? Who could have seen it coming!