I'm sure even the bosses know what thermal throttling is. They just know the average idiot will see bigger number next to the CPU and think it's better
@@horntx However it's gonna be heads of IT departments requisitioning these things and most sysad nerds ain't gonna touch these with a 10 meter pole as equipped.
@@adafrost6276 No, no. Those sysadmins definitely will when *their* incompetent, tech-illiterate bosses demand they buy them and won't be convinced otherwise because they saw these were "the best" and HP is bigger brand than the alternatives, and also they have corporate friends at HP.
Patrick from STH - which was in one of the LTT episode - have this kind of series ;) TinyMiniMacro to be more precise and they check hardware from HP, Dell, Lenovo and so on. Optimum Tech - like someone else pointed out - also have SFF videos but it's more DIY SFF nor buy and work kind of SFF PC.
I'm not in anyway surprised... When mini-notebooks had just become a thing like a decade ago, I tested a engineering model from HP. It was great. The school I worked for bought 60 of them based on how the sample worked for me. While waiting for them to arrive, HP only then told me the shipping model would be 70% as capable as the model I tested. At that point we couldn't pull out, but the model we bought 60 of was... 'Meh' to say the least. Performance was about half what the engineering sample was, battery life wasn't better, and everything else was identical. It seems they just wanted to make more money per unit and so lower the specs across the board... After selling them based on the original samples.
FINALLY, someone addresses this problem with HP, they "tune" the components on different settings than the factory ones. But they screw up so bad that the PC becomes a massive pile of garbage ( it could be fixed with a better fan curve or letting the PC components behave as intended by the manufacturers ). But HP locks you out of those settings. For whoever is experiencing problems give up on changing the fan curve, and focus on resetting your PC out of HP's "tuning". You can do that by activating VBS, ( I would like to precise that uninstalling HP's software is useless ).
fan curves didnt matter in this one, at all. at full throttle 100%, it still choked. the max cooling of that stack was marked at 125W. the 12900K regularly hits 250W without overclocks. only a complete moron (looks sqarely at HP) would think that is a good combo.
@@KangoV My pc even with the fan set to 100% used to throttle. Then I tried the afford mentioned method and it stopped. idk what HP is doing but on my machine it was like that.
@@ghomerhust I'm not saying that that was the right amount of cooling for that processor. I'm saying that on my machine it was a problem with HP settings. And I'm saying to everyone that is having problems before surrendering to the idea that their PC, isn't capable to try that method. Cause it worked for me
Hp is really trash in cooling, in laptops it disables tuning up or down the cooler so anytime i try to play a cpu intencive game the cpu will reach 95degree than the fan will actually start to spin at 100% and after 2 mins the laptop will turn off hope they solve this issue
HP has great engineers coming up with good ideas, but they have the shadow engineers. Even SMARTER engineers thinking up bad ideas to counter the good ones.
I'm pretty sure the hp engineers made this setup for the 12400, which could make total sense (if the price was right). Then Marketing guys forced them to put 12900k to clear stocks, which is bs
As electronics engineer, HP test equipments (keysight/agilent) are highly respected and sophisticated. I don't know why their computer department suck so hard.
@@DenDodde how can you say? AFAIK Keysight is still at the top of test equipment brands. Their equipments are reliable, accurate, one of the most advanced and expensive stuff..
If they'd just made it a similar form factor to the Mac they could have fitted a full-height GPU in it and basically tripled the CPU cooler. There's two of the three biggest issues taken care of right there. This was definitely marketing getting in the way of design and engineering.
The thing is, even if they made it twice as tall or thick, it would still be very compact AND able to fit a decent cooler in there. Yes, we all want a smaller formfactor but no one buys a WORKSTATION wants to sacrifice lots of performance for a slimmer body.
I think that it's also important to understand how space on a desk is more important than volume. A flat piece of paper takes up much more space than a cup, but the cup has much more volume. So, even 2x the height won't make it take up more space in 99% of situations
"How not to make a PC" and "HP" in the same sentence? After watching a ton of GamersNexus' videos, I know that this will definitely be a good episode! 😁
was about to say the same thing! Even as someone from physics, I know that most people get manipulated by such stuff and I appreciate it immensely that they've clarified it!
@@jammiewins What irritates me in particular are the colours and choice of symbols. Why the fuck should you use 3 colours for 2 groups of graphs? 1 I understand. 2 I understand. It was also done for the symbols. But why in one case 2 times red and then in the other blue and yellow? Like wtf.
@@jammiewins harder to read? maybe. BUT this makes you more likely to stop and examine it better. a simple graph with shifted axes is much more likely to be skimmed over and misinterpreted. (at this point I recommend "How to spot a misleading graph - Lea Gaslowitz"; small video on yt)
Yeah LMG has always been good about this I think. There was a video in the past (can't remember now) where Linus went out of his way to point out one of the axes was logarithmic which I really appreciated.
Verry possible that there are not many engineers left in HP but just mainly marketing and lawyers. Frankly, this thing looks like just randomly gathered parts in a prefab case (no custom solutions). And those Engineers who are still left there are working their asses off to release as many products as possible in a short period of time, while this thing needs months and months of preparation. They won't bear Apple, because apple is releasing few products per year and are putting adequate time into each of them.
They don't care about beating Apple because the businesses they are selling to run on Windows and the parts and support agreement is more important than the hardware working right. And if you want to prove that it would save money in the long term to switch, good luck.
@@adamgreenhill110 yeah, that's another thing though - Apple made the most out of what little space they had in the chassis to more than adequately cool the components, while HP seemingly just used some cooler they already had that wasn't designed for these kinds of loads.
6:18 onwards, the titles should have been HP Z2 12900K vs Bench 12900K. It was a bit confusing to see the Z2 being put on bench and off bench with hugely different results.
As I understand it, they took the actual CPU out of the Z2 and put it on a bench, not just another 12900K they had lying around, as binning could skew the results that way, and _that_ wouldn't come across with that phrasing. No win situation given the brevity needed for graph legends.
As a Z workstation owner, it's honestly a bit sad to see HP doing so poorly and just shoving a laptop board into a little rectangle. The design of their large workstations is quite well thought out, and very well built so it's a little disappointing to see them make a very hot mini PC claiming to be a workstation... Heck, my custom z620 workstation from 2012 beats this in specs/performance at 1/5 the price, although it's a solid 60 lbs.
@@instantmediainternational Nice! Are you using dual socket? I'm running dual Xeon E5-2690 V1, and a GTX 980 I bought secondhand a few years ago (decent enough for CAD and video rendering)
@@DavisMakesGames I logged-in so I could reply to your first message (I'm writing it this way so I don't have-to-type the-whole-entire-thing: ): I found a refurbished HP-Z440 that is coming with a 700W power-supply and a EVGA "nVidia GeForce GTX 970". As well as a Intel "Xeon E5-1630 V3" processor (3.7GHz, 4 cores, 8 threads), and 16GB of DDR4 RAM. Is it worth getting? Also: I'm trying to find-out what's the ATI (now owned by AMD) equivalent of a "nVidia GeForce GTX 970". (Because I'm going to install Linux on it; specifically, EndeavourOS)*. Do you (and/or anyone reading this comment/post) have any idea (what the AMD/ATI equivalent of that nVidia graphics-card is) ? * (to be more specific: The refurbisher is, (the price I'm mentioning is for a limited time only), offering to upgrade the 256GB SSD for a 512GB SSD for $30, or upgrade the 256GB SSD to a 1TB SSD for $50. What I'm going to do is ask to change the 256GB SSD for the 1TB SSD, partition the 1TB SSD into two (2) separate segments, then install EndeavourOS into the second segment. (The reason why I'm keeping a partition with Windows installed on it is in-case I run into any programs I need that are compatible with Windows and not Linux) (Example: at least for-me thus-far, it's easier to create a LiveUSB of Ventoy on Windows than it is on Linux). (There are other software I use on Windows that don't have a Linux-"equivalent/counterpart" yet, or a Linux-version--of-that-software yet).
I too had a z620 with 64gb of RAM, 2x 2680v2s, 2 Asus GTX 1070 Turbos, and 4 512gb ssds with W7. It was the most stable PC i have ever owned and I only sold it last November to help fund a Ryzen 5950x/RTX 3090 workstation. I miss it dearly but I hope it is providing a top tier experience for the current owner.
I have a client that loves these Z2 minis (they've been getting them since G1) but in diagnosing performance problems I ran into the same problem as you guys with the heat and lack of fan control. These are older G4s with i7s in them and I believe it was P1000s or maybe even T2000s, but still the fans just don't spin up early enough (HWinfo doesn't even show fan speeds for me). I've managed to convince one of their teams to go for the Z2 towers which perform much nicer and has access to much better graphics cards.
I just bought this z mini new for 2000€ in Europe from an official reseller, the mac studio costs above 4000€…I make live visuals performances (live rendering) therefore it is a good compromise between a laptop and a desktop workstation in terms of space and price. The last ten years I used a HP envy with i7 and it still does the job greatly, had to upgrade because it could handle just a double full HD output, which is not enough anymore…now, with all those outputs I won’t need external devices like matrox, anymore. It’s about your personal pros and your personal cons. To me, for example, is extremely important that I can access and upgrade the HW by myself, I have a couple of iPads and though they work great, it makes me mad I cannot access anything in this sealed system. I don’t think this ws is trash as mentioned in the review, for the price we have in Europe it is a good deal.
That was the only way I kept my XBOX 360 from melting itself down to the infamous red ring of death also with tweaked fans and better thermal paste, my believe is that the engineers where aware of the thermal issues of this new workstation but their bosses didn't hear them because they have their heads too deep in their asses just like Microsoft's administration back then.
Feels like the same issue with the i7-12700H and i9-12900H. Apparently the i9-12900H gets throttled so much in most laptops that it has about 2% more power in best results... to about 200 euros/dollars more cost.
On anything small or in a laptop you it's not the best idea to really pass 60 watts unless you're ok with a loud fan and hot PC, which is why IMO since forever an i5 has always performed on par with i7's. Unless of course you can manage over 100 watts of heat well 😅
Only makes the video that Anthony made about the future of PCs more relevant. Clearly, there is a need for a powerful workstation PC in a small form factor, that does not get hot, nor consumes much power. Apple has engineered custom silicon to fulfill that need. HP is relying on Intel and Nvidia, neither of whose components can adequately address high performance in a small form factor.
@@alexatkin Uh, doubtful. Apple's chips are 5nm so they physically emit less heat. They're also an SoC so the heat is coming from one spot. Easier to manage one cooling solution than two (CPU and GPU)
@@t1merickson I don't think it's only becouse 5nm and SoC. The M1 ultra is 60W TDP! the i9 is about 250-280W. Apple ARM and OS optimization is much more efficient than x86. I don't think a new 5nm x86 with integrated graphics will be 4 time more efficient than the current ones.
I don't like Apple, but the truth is that Apple's processors are just way more efficient, and pull way more performance from same power input. That's when a RISC ISA(like ARM) meets alien-level engineers. In particular, I've heard about M1's "Wide instruction decoder", which I believe it means that it can decode a lot of instructions at once(don't know how many though). And I can see why it was easy to expand the decoder: All ARM's instructions fit in single 32-bit word(not sure if aarch64 uses 64-bit instructions), where x86 instructions have different sizes for each instruction. Having identically sized instruction means it is very simple to predict where the next instruction would be at. Also, RISC architectures like ARM have way fewer instructions and simpler instruction format. It's really easy to focus on actual performance of each instruction, compared to x86. It's just sad that RISC never truly replaced x86 PCs.
While it’s easy to take the p*ss out of Apple’s launch events, they do clearly have a focussed management team and goals that it appears HP does not have
Seems to me HP has been pretty successful at copying Apple here. The only problem being that they copied the thinking behind the i9 MacBook Pro instead of the Mac Studio
HP: We know how to make the best mini workstation and can rival apple also HP: We can do the 2 things apple did well the worst. Power efficiency and device cooling. Why did they even release this product, same for all windows based computers. Don't try to specifically rival apple until you can get at least one of those 2 figured out.
I doubt most corporate orders they get will even care about the thermal performance issues. As long as they can work on it, they don't care since the specs are all current gen. HP knows this and they will even profit from it.
@@TwoHands12 that's what I was thinking. but still do people that are professionally looking for a work station care that much about small form factors?
i mean, the product itself seems fine. Linus even said so about less powerful configs. and I don't think many businesses will be ordering the 12900k SKU. the only shame is HP offering configs with CPU's that the system in incapable of cooling, the product itself isn't "bad" they just fucked up by allowing you to put the engine of lamborghini into a clown car.
Here is a smart idea HP, in a small chassis why opt for the Intel CPU when an AMD one would have been significantly better, under full load the 5950x consumes much less power than the 12900k, you it would have performed so much better...
Whilst that is true as soon as you don't have a permanent 100% CPU load the 12900(all versions except for the KS) becomes far more efficient than the 5950x. And as far as I can tell most software benefits the Intel processor. That being said: the 5950x is the superior rendering/cinebench CPU. Igor's lab did a great test with Alder Lake.
@@Ocastia just comparing the two at idle... AMD pulls way a head in efficiency that only magnifies on load. Sorry Team blue but you need to step up your game.
And then You get Elitebook G8 with Ryzen 7 5800U ... witch goes 100C every time you hit 30% CPU... no way to adjust the fan... well it goes 100% any way and temp is held at 100C ... so You have fan running at 100% (noise), a steaming hot CPU and You actually doing nothing...
@@jackuzy it can be a sign of good cooling if it hits 100C but doesn't throttle its the same for my 5800X its just that 5nm is rlly high in energie density so it's hitting high temps even though your cooler is cold af if it hits 100C and doesn't throttle its just a good fan ramp or would you pref it to ramp up to 5000rpm every time you open a folder
I feel like they should have doubled the thickness and using the rest of that GIRTH just for cooling. It would still be about the same size as the Mac Mini Ultra AND would have actually come close to those performance specs. It wouldn't have even cost them that much extra, but would have been a huge performance improvement. You could even have two models based on Girth depending on the hardware inside. You want better specs? buy the girthier one and know you're getting value for your money.
I find it interesting how HP remains in business - their machines have been renown for overheating and throttling issues as far back as over 20 years at this point - and it seems nothing has changed... How on earth are they still getting sales on the consumer market considering their decades long reputation?
@@vadnegru I haven't worked with a company that didn't issue ThinkPads for their employees. I genuinely haven't seen a HP machine outside of consumer market in my entire professional life.
The problem is that T chips aren't sold anymore and have to be scavenged from other OEM system. It's no problem for LTT, but I doubt anyone will just do it. Just a basic non K chip should be already a massive upgrade, since it has PL1 set at 65 watts.
12900K, 12900, 12900T, 12700K, 12700, 12700T, 12600K tested with normal config AND best case (100% fan, added shroud) let's see how badly hp messed this up.
@@SweBeach2023 If an i7 outperforms the i9 because it’s not throttled in the same way, an i9-12900T might deliver even better performance as its power limits are within what the board can handle, the temperature output should be lower, and it retains the higher thread/core count.
@@MJ-uk6lu When did LTT ever care about the audience copying the nonsense they do? Whole room water cooling, no internet scrapyard wars, the ultimate Hack Pro, all the servers, I think it’s more about entertainment value than making informed buying choices, I go to Tech Jesus for that 😂
I guess this is a testament to how far ahead Apple is when it comes to their silicon. Hopefully ARM catches up for everyone else in the near future, as there’s some real potential in that space.
@@theunreal_TOEBEANS You don’t need to tie yourself into a pretzel to avoid admitting a company you disagree with has made a objectively better product that its competitors.
There's a lot of reason why Apple wins, most of them tie down to their loyal customer base and their vertical integration which has a snowball effect, but also to their product design philosophy in general
@@DistrosProjects The sad thing is that Microsoft really bungled it up. They had Win 10 run on ARM in late 2016, yet they never bothered to build a proper developer PC, and they never bothered to make the windows license platform-agnostic, as they should have. Microsoft had 3.5 years advantage, and they lost it all.
When I got my Mac Studio (base ultra, 48-core GPU but extra storage) I tried Tomb Raider on it and played for awhile then I had to leave and do other things. I forgot about it and came back hours later and realised I'd left it on. It was still silent and airflow at the back was cool. It's really quite strange.
I'm reminded of several years back when Apple's top-end laptop throttled so much that it was actually slower than a lesser model. I'm not saying that to make it PC or HP vs. Apple. It was a crap design when Apple did it, and it's a crap design on HP's part. What an epic failure. Unacceptable.
@@ghostraider4312 For individuals yes, but half the reasons why enterprise workstations are there is so that the company have some support in case of problems with the hardware (hence why business class computers can cost more then a normal pc). BUT there are clearly better options out there compared to HP's...solution in this video.
@@Shadowninja1200 If they only care about specs I actually think they should switch to Mac Studio assuming macOS can run their software. So far on the PC side of things not much is being done to compete with Apple silicon.
I don't get it, why compromise performance to make it small form factor? It's marketed to professionals. Professionals use the best equipment no matter how much power and space it uses. You don't see professional photographers and videographers swap out their full frame DSLRs or cinema cameras for tiny point and shoot cameras because they have better battery life and take up less space.
@@rubiconnn How is performance being compromised by the form factor? The Ultra configuration is their most powerful offering and it runs quite well as is. I'm a professional that bought one for work and it absolutely crushes anything we throw at it.
@@jtl909 Compare the CPU to all other CPUs and you'll see that the M1 gets stomped by professional grade CPUs. The M1 is a low power chip meant for portability and low power usage. While it has great ratio of performance per watt it's pretty low on the overall performance rating.
@@TheEddie581 Because phones are limited by the batteries. You can only squeeze out a few watts of power from a phone battery. A wall outlet can put out 1500+ watts of power for an unlimited amount of time.
Finally a good tech outlet that point to HP errors. I had so much problems with there prebuilds exactly the same issues as shown here. And HP ignoring all and give 0 support\feedback.
I’m one of the rare watchers who has close to zero interest in games so find videos like this very helpful. Like some other commenters mention, I would also be keen to see some more workstation builds here, especially developer oriented ones.
Yep. My PC hobbies are all creative workstation applications. FPS and RGB means nothing to me, but I'd love to hear more from audio production and the 3D modelling perpective.
Apple: We have the best mini work station! Hp: Yeah right we have the way better wor- (Thermals being way higher and apple still beating them in shadow the tomb raider) Hp: Yeah you have the best work station
If they weren't chasing making it fit in an unnecessarily small case, a larger cooling stack with more fans front and back coupled with a default under-volt on the CPU could potentially make it work. That would require them to focus on engineering a new cooling solution specifically to address the issue and isn't something HP is likely to do. They seem to want to operate like Dell when it comes to designing workstations.
@@graealex That comes around to more of the Dell style of operating I mentioned. They're using things they already have on hand instead of going full boutique in the fight. They could have engineered a custom cooler and PSU to fit inside a larger case and got the job done, but they used off the shelf parts that should have never been approved in the first place. If they were serious about trying to compete with Apple, they should have made a custom case to come in at the same footprint as the Mac Studio. They instead used what was likely an already existing frame from one of their other minis and just put a newer shroud around it.
@@zwenkwiel816 It's likely corporate oversight putting restrictions on them. Larger corporations always have the issue of too many cooks with their finger in the pot.
I don't personally use Apple products at all I'm my daily life, however I had to say they're the one group of people that can market. Like small Mac for studio type work, 'mac studio' windows intergrater gets hold of the product category and calls it the Megatron mega Gluck V5, absolutely ridiculous
The A2000 (192-bit memory, 26 SMs) is closer to a lower-clocked 3060 (192-bit memory, 28 SMs) than a 3050 (128-bit memory, 20 SMs) but probably closer to the latter in gaming due to the lower clocks
HP? HP's higher tier Z workstations (I used a Z620 for years) were my example for well-built workstations, especially when it comes to getting air away from components instead just blowing it around aimlessly. That the Z2 now can be improved with a cardboard shroud....embarrasing.
Working in R&D myself (chemical rather PC), I imagine some big wig with no idea of engineering told the R&D people they want the best parts in a 3.5L case no matter what and that's the best they could do considering they cannot change the physics behind heat transfer (that being said they fucked up by locking stuff like fan controls)
As someone who repair computers for a living, this doesn't surprise me in the slightest. I don't think I've ever seen a single HP computer come into my work that I didn't have some complaint about. Whenever people ask me which HP to buy, I try as hard as I can to point them to other brands instead.
I think it was pointed out in another video on how apple's arm solution was a key factor in how they were able to have such a small form factor and incredible performance. It made it extremely power efficient. Expecting a powerful x86 processor to keep up in this small form factor is foolhardy with their TDP. It's annoying being lied to and a cheaper better product could have been made with less expensive parts that performed just as well in the same form factor.
what makes the macs powerful is the seemless software and hardware integration....if microsoft had their own x86 SoC custom created to work with a custom version of windows, I bet they could perform just as well....
@@post-leftluddite I don't think right now that's apple's strong point as their arm chips are still pretty much in transition and there's a ton of software which runs through Rosetta, so I'll agree with the first dude here.
@@post-leftluddite you can't have "custom" x86 CPU architecture. They must all run on the same underlying principles. There are slight variations between AMD and Intel but the code for that is mostly up to the company in charge. Windows has to account for the differences in both architectures and still run well no matter the system. Its generalised software for generalised hardware. The moment you go custom is the moment it's no longer x86. There was a small arm windows stint but it didn't work very well or last very long either. Lack of interest, time and resources. Even then, it's as you said, apple has seamless integration of hardware and software because ALL of the hardware is the same or pretty damn close. The PC market isn't like that and it's pretty much an every colour of the rainbow scenario because PC builders want to make their own PC's and have it RGB or whatever. You have to make sure all the hardware combinations work and they may not even work well. I may not like apple and their scummy ways but when the engineers do something right, they do it really well.
i mean, at the end of the video he roughly says that the system is fine in a less powerful config. If someone is smart enough to know they need a 12900k worth of CPU power, they know that buying one in such a small AIO chassis probably won't work very well. The video felt a bit "baity" in that sense, yes HP offers the config, but they also offer many other configs that would work just fine. The product is fine, it seems HP just needs to remove the option for a 12900k.
@@modestmouse6 the thing is. Its not just the processor, its the motherboard HP made themselves made the power throttle when they put on i7 in it . Which means HP just fuck the customer even if you made a good decision.
@@Ahfeku trruuuue I forgot that and oversaw it when writing my comment. It kind of makes sense from an enterprise perspective, you don't really want people without experience tinkering with things they perhaps shouldn't (raising power limits could push thermals beyond what anything can handle, or pop the PSU) but I suppose that's also why most companies have a well equipped IT department these days.
wow a newbie petrol-head making yet another meritless analogy besides Buick their line up doesn't suck and even those drony things are bought by idiots
At least GM usually built correctly running car, HP seems to only pump out Multiplas and Azteks or building a Vette, which overheats and can't even use half of its engine due to that. HP is a lot worse than GM.
At this point you can't convince me that OEMs aren't deliberately engineering their computers to overheat. They can spend less on the cooling, and it makes them fail faster so you have to replace them sooner. I had a Pentium 4 back in the 2000s that would ramp up the fans at the first sign of temps beginning to rise, and now basically every computer on the market now doesn't do that until temps get dangerously high.
Oh dear! It sounds like a conspiracy, but that _is_ planned obsolescence for you.... 😔 At least it's good to have this information and realize this as consumers!
Shows you why Apple Silicon and performance efficiency is far more relevant than "absolute" performance that some of the PC crowd seems to champion. PCs can keep up with (and exceed) the new Mac chips with unlimited power and space budgets - but in these kinds of smaller form factors (or laptops) you see the huge advantage of power efficiency.
You can have your power efficiency, when my motherboard died last week I was able to replace it for less than $200, fix it myself, and am back up and running as if nothing had changed. I didn't have to consult with anyone or be bullied into buying a new machine. I'm willing to pay a few extra $ per month on electricity for that convenience.
Anyone else not surprised by these results? The hp laptop from my work functions decently, better than the stupid 2in1 I had from them before, but they never learn as my last personal hp laptop had horrible thermals and settings. Also never call their tech support if you have any tech knowledge, you’ll know more than the first few people you talk to.
You will never catch me buying any "Horse Poo" branded computer ever again. After the issues I had with my HP Elite Slice when I got it brand new, support vanished basically a year after I got it, despite having 3yr onsite warranty, the helpdesk was next to useless, they could never work out why the device often failed to power on during winter time here in Western Australia. Had so many issues with their laptops too.
I guess they are in between a laptop and a desk tower. Personally I've used laptops a lot for music shows or recording sessions. I just bought a mac studio and it fits in a small bag, so it's almost as portable as a laptop, but with better specs and a lower price, and most studios have monitors and mouse/keyboard. And also, most of the time I use my laptop as a desk tower when I'm at home. So I guess it really depends on what you do with your PC.
Marketing sees small form factors are popular they then want to cram as much horsepower in the box as they can even when engineering is pleading how bad of an idea it is. The truly sad thing it will probably sell like hot cakes because clueless managers buy them up against recommendations of it and engineering departments
HP's poor build quality really is one of their signatures. I was shopping for a used 2-in-1 laptop recently and I've seen so many HP laptops with hinge issues and it seems like every HP laptop I looked at had rubber feet that were at least starting to fall off if not completely gone. Ended up getting a ThinkPad instead (mostly because it was a good deal admittedley but the build quality was an important factor.) Also the X1 Yoga Gen 3 has the "wave keyboard" where it goes inside in tablet mode, and it was just too cool to pass up on. HP basically never do cool stuff like that! (although Lenovo got rid of it too in the gen 4 which sucks because it's cool!!!!)
Want to know something funny? You literally described 2 out of the 3 main problems I have with my Envy 13. Hinge is damaged on one side, rubber on the bottom is peeling off and the speakers make a crackling noice on one of the sides. Will never buy a normal HP product again. Their Victus line of laptops is actually quite decent on the other hand though.
ThinkPad owner here. Got multiple used from a school that used them with children and needed to upgrade to Chromebooks. ThinkPad e550s from about 2014, and they run amazing. They don't have the fastest hardware, but they've survived this long and are going to keep on chugging. ThinkPads are my favorite laptop lineup.
I work in corporate IT where we buy a bunch of these kinds of things, and greater than 1Gbps Ethernet is a waste. We have 10Gbps fiber runs between data centers in our facility, but we’re in manufacturing so there are plenty of devices on our network that can’t go above 100Mbps, and some are even half duplex. So, those serial connectors would actually be much more useful, because we could use them to replace older embedded PCs that control expensive gauges, which need serial connections to the PLCs inside the gauge, Honestly, I’d like to see them toss a serial port on their Z-Books so our engineers don’t need to use as many dongles. If it can run CAD software, this thing is fine, and if it draws less power and takes up less space then it’s even better.
From the get Im reminded of compulabs’ airtop3. It’s pretty old now and ships with three year old specs, but if HP had released something like then, they’d be absolutely trounced.
I have a HP Z2 Mini G3 and it’s been solid and pretty quick for a 6700K. Was weighing up a G9 but having seen this I’m now glad I decided to go for a custom full ATX workstation. It’s a shame the 12th Gen Intel stuff is so power hungry and hot.
its time for intel to release SoC with at most using 3nm architecture for ATX build and laptops. rn apple is 2 years ahead with the release of M2. just wait for apple to fully support gaming and intel is doomed.
Something you should do with labs is value for performance metrics so people can see if upgrading to the i9 version of a laptop from the i7 is worth the thermal throttle or if its worse in a cost to performance scenario
I9 is always worse in a cost to performance scenario to any other cpu. The highest cost to performance you get at an i3 from there on it gets lower, nothing wrong with that though !
Working for HP as a system engineer must be hard, you got your qualifications, years of experience and all the ambition. Your task: Going through all the stress-induced headaches to achieve the impossible performance specs your dipshit boss invents, pulling as much as you can to make the miracle happen, then still gets roasted by the community in the end.
Honestly I still don't know why apple isn't getting into gaming business I mean I'm not a fan of Apple but seeing how efficient and powerful their silicon is and it's only being limited by the software and support, It just screams to me that if they try they will be a serious competition to Nvidia and AMD (and possibly Intel)
And it's not like Macs have never been used for gaming. Bungie, of Halo and Destiny fame, made their first games for the Mac. Lots of edutainment games were made for the Mac. I have fond memories of Mac gaming in my youth.
Because it’s not profitable enough to be worth the additional effort. Over 50% of gaming revenue comes from smartphone and tablet games. Look how they’re raking it in with app store fees. Basically they’re like Valve’s situation with Steam.
@@scienceguy8 Did you know that Halo was actually first demoed at an Apple keynote? Did you know that at the same keynote they also demoed a literal PlayStation emulator on stage?
Obviously an i5 would perform amazingly better given the same cooling constraints. The throttling effect is very costly on cpu cycles. The i5 might still throttle given the constraints, but it will likely throttle less often, especially the lower power variants.
I love these mini cases. I buy them for 60 bucks on AliExpress and mount AMD APUs inside. They make wonderful workstations (you don't need a dedicated GPU for workstations unless they are for video editing). Fast, small, just wonderful.
They are different products, this one is targeting high end content production and it's positioned against the Mac Studio Ultra but is a total failure. What you buy are highly optimized boxes for office tasks
@@gabrielesartori3308 If by content you mean video, yes. I'm actually a professional 2d artist and a ryzen 5700g is way above my needs. I do have 64gb RAM and high end nvme disks, tho, because those things really make a difference. The gpu doesn't.
Apple showed from 2016 to 2020 in their MacBook pros that having far to power hungry chips inside tiny chassis is a very bad idea and cause thermal throttle. People might think other manufacturers understood the backlash Apple received for years and how it almost destroyed their position in the laptop market. If not for M1, Apple would have slowly become a phone manufacturers and that’s it. Why then so we see things like this HP workstation being at least 3 times to small to fit its components and sufficient thermal dissipation stuff as well.
10 years ago HP outsourced their engineering to China. It explains everything about HP since then. They bought and took out Compaq to gain market share because they were so horrible years before that.
I did small business sales for a local IT company for a few years. I pushed lenovo thinkcetres but right before I took over dozens of Intel NUCs had been sold and deployed to a lot of clients. Over the next 3 years I saw most of those devices fail, not just some, pretty much all of them. I really wish it was more well known how much intel screwed people with those devices.
I have about 20 NUC's deployed behind conference room displays at my job, and we haven't had any real hardware failures. They are mostly 6th-8th gen processors, and have been running fine... so that is a decent amount of years given the cramped space we have them in, running 24/7/365. I am not saying you are wrong, since all companies are screwing their customers in some way... but we definitely have a difference in perspective on the hardware.
I love Lenovo's products and what they do as a company. They're probably the only company I would recommend for the enterprise sector and dell only because Dell has good warranty and customer service because they're so huge, but Lenovos products feel superior.
@@Sakosaga I'm with you, especially in a mission critical situation or less than optimal environment like a shop. I have had lenovo Thinkstations running laser cutters as well as long term dirty agricultural applications and never had one fail. I'm in the AV and high end residential world now but i really respect the lenovo Think series products
HP actually made a very impressive mobile workstation. The HP Elite Desk 805G6 Mini had a Ryzen 7 4750GE, and a GTX 1660TI(mobile) and it was something like $1100 with that plus 512GB SSD and 16GB of RAM(not ECC though the CPU supports it, i've tested in my 4750GE)
@@alexamderhamiltom5238 Cool story bro, tell me more, let me tell you something about the HP, It was launched more than a year before RTX 30 series launch, also, this thing is the size of a Mac Mini, i'd love to get an RTX 3060 in a Mac Mini sized machine, especially if it has Ryzen 5000/6000H, or i7-1260P
@@mixedup5858 bold of you to assume i'm using the battery. i bought the laptop when VGA cards were so damn expensive i was thinking about buying new pc.
I've had many different computers over the years. Some I loved, some I didn't... but the worst machine I've ever owned, bar none, was an HP Pavilion laptop. The screen was the only redeeming thing about it - it was a very nice, bright, reasonably color-accurate XGA screen. The Z2 is like seeing someone in a pickup truck with a 4" lift, off-road tires and a winch, and knowing it will never see a lick of mud.
Macs had the same thermal issues when they were on x86. Sticking old school tech in modern enclosures may give the illusion of progress but it harms performance.
It's so bizarre to me- it really feels like these companies want you to have a slow computer. And not in a "We sell you poison, then sell you the antidote" kinda way because they're not even selling better computers.
I know this is very basic but I wonder Linus tried Active cooling policy in Windows Power Options. hp advises to make their workstations quieter by changing from Active to Passive. which means starts slowing down rather than kicking the fan.
My Mac Studio Base model is amazingly fast for everything I do, I have a gaming PC for games so not missing out on anything. It also draws almost no power!
Yeah I absolutely love my M1 Max Mac Studio. I got the higher spec 32 core GPU variant, but otherwise it’s the base model and hooo boy does it fly. I actually game on it too when a game runs on Mac or it’s a retro windows title I can run through Rosetta. I have an RTX 3060/Ryzen 9 5900HS laptop that I boot up for games that aren’t on Mac. But, the games that are and run through the Metal API absolutely demolish my laptop in performance, especially if their ARM native, which makes me want even more games for Mac. Using the Apple Silicon-native/ Vulkan to Metal version of vkQuake (modern source port of the Quake engine), my M1 Max Mac Studio gets more than twice the frame rate of my RTX gaming laptop, which might sound useless for a retro game, but when you’re running these games on a 240Hz monitor while running modern mods and DLC, my gaming laptop will often dip below 120 FPS while playing Quake while the Mac Studio is usually sitting above 500 and getting all the way up to 2,000 FPS. And playing a modern game like Metro Exodus or Warhammer III doesn’t even make the fans spin up on the machine. When a game is written for Apple Silicon, I totally understand why Apple has abandoned Intel. Aside from gaming, it feels like it’s ever “processing” anything. The first time I exported a 1080p clip in iMovie I was like, “Okay where’s the loading bar so I can see how long this is going to take?” Little did I know the whole project exported in a few seconds while I glanced at my phone.
Apple does seem to be bringing the gaming to Mac on their proprietary chipsets. It will take allot of configuration to port AAA games to work on M1. (more likely their future chips.) but apple does want to kill the no gaming on mac stereotype, and are trying to get more developer to support M1 macs.(and beyond)
@@vatu After just spending a year using MacOS in addition to Linux and Windows, I'd have to say MacOS is the shittiest OS out of all three. It shouldn't be, but their UI is stupidly restricted and un-intuitive to use, with lots of really stupid niggling issues.
A few years ago I would never have believed that an Apple computer would be the fastest you can buy, let alone the most power-efficient, coolest, quietest and, most critically, not be insanely overpriced. I even bought my first iPhone this year. Apple have responded to former haters with genuine innovation, kudos to them. It will take years for Intel & AMD to catch up
I guess to me the obvious question is, would they have been better off (or at least less bad off) going with AMD processors rather than Intel in this product? If you have it stuck in your mind that you want to deliver a product in a tiny case that can't handle delivering more than 125 watts and can't cool more than 125 watts it just seems... crazy to decide to build your high end model off a part that doesn't really shine unless it's sucking down far more than that. Yeah a 12900k will beat anything from Zen 3 (in any professional workload) in unlimited power scenarios but a SFF brick-like PC isn't an unlimited power scenario. I guess I would guess that someone along the line, probably a product manager, figured that being able to say 12900k on the box mattered more than actually delivering a product that maximized the strengths of the 12900k rather than highlighting its weaknesses?
Almost certainly, 5950X performs very well in productivity with far less power, but I don't think any HP desktops have AMD processors. Probably have a deal with Intel or something
You know I have a feeling hp intentionally lets their devices thermal throttle so they don't last and you have to go buy a new one. The longer you keep that poor cpu at temps like that, the more likely you are to have something basically melt off.
For a proper mini workstation "pc" someone shpuld use a 12900hk (laptop) and 3080ti mobile and ample of cooling in a mac studio sized chasis. The mobile parts would be easier to cool and use less power.
Considering our poor climate outlook, it's surprising PC manufacturers aren't trying to outdo each other with efficiency rather than just trying to out-market each other. Businesses can be tempted by green ratings and power savings over time especially with dozens of machines in an office. Yet here we are with 240W space heaters on desks that run like crap because they use garbage designs.
3:39 Calling it a 3060 with all those things would have been more accurate considering it has the same amount of cores and the same memory setup as the 3060, performance wise it performs identically to a 3050 though because of it's lower clocks, but you make it sound as if it's a lower clocked 3050, which it is not.
Once again, HP shows that they can really bring the heat! That is enough heat to completely wreck the performance of what should have been an epic machine. *sigh*
probably not, the chip would still not be able to run at it's full potential regardless of the hardware inside. HP just sucks making computers in general, theres always some issue(s) with all their machines.
The problem with all those other workstation “benefits” is if they’re already lying about it being the fastest small form factor workstation, who’s to say they didn’t lie about the reliability tests? or the other certifications?
pretty sure most engineer at HP are like : Thanks Linus for saying out loud what we are trying to tell our bosses for months!
Truth
I'm sure even the bosses know what thermal throttling is. They just know the average idiot will see bigger number next to the CPU and think it's better
@@horntx However it's gonna be heads of IT departments requisitioning these things and most sysad nerds ain't gonna touch these with a 10 meter pole as equipped.
*decades
@@adafrost6276 No, no. Those sysadmins definitely will when *their* incompetent, tech-illiterate bosses demand they buy them and won't be convinced otherwise because they saw these were "the best" and HP is bigger brand than the alternatives, and also they have corporate friends at HP.
With all the PC builds LTT are making, it could be fun to see them make their own take on a good "Small" workstation.
It's extremely difficult without ARM and there just isn't good ARM for the high end outside of Apple
Check out Optimum Tech, he does a lot of small form factor builds. ua-cam.com/users/OptimumTech
Reviewers that have great takes almost never manage to do good on the other end.
Patrick from STH - which was in one of the LTT episode - have this kind of series ;) TinyMiniMacro to be more precise and they check hardware from HP, Dell, Lenovo and so on. Optimum Tech - like someone else pointed out - also have SFF videos but it's more DIY SFF nor buy and work kind of SFF PC.
Dave2D made a very good small pc but these kind of mini PCs should be smaller because of the advantages of being able to include custom components
I'm not in anyway surprised... When mini-notebooks had just become a thing like a decade ago, I tested a engineering model from HP. It was great. The school I worked for bought 60 of them based on how the sample worked for me. While waiting for them to arrive, HP only then told me the shipping model would be 70% as capable as the model I tested. At that point we couldn't pull out, but the model we bought 60 of was... 'Meh' to say the least. Performance was about half what the engineering sample was, battery life wasn't better, and everything else was identical. It seems they just wanted to make more money per unit and so lower the specs across the board... After selling them based on the original samples.
That's illegal in many countries. Did the school get their money back?
Commenting to follow this thread, that's totally disingenuous of them :
classic HP
tell the school to sue them
Sounds like a load of false advertising. Trying to sell you on a sample that isn't representative of the final product.
FINALLY, someone addresses this problem with HP, they "tune" the components on different settings than the factory ones.
But they screw up so bad that the PC becomes a massive pile of garbage
( it could be fixed with a better fan curve or letting the PC components behave as intended by the manufacturers ). But HP locks you out of those settings.
For whoever is experiencing problems give up on changing the fan curve, and focus on resetting your PC out of HP's "tuning".
You can do that by activating VBS, ( I would like to precise that uninstalling HP's software is useless ).
But even with the fans at 100% (7,000 rpm), the system still throttled :(
fan curves didnt matter in this one, at all. at full throttle 100%, it still choked. the max cooling of that stack was marked at 125W. the 12900K regularly hits 250W without overclocks. only a complete moron (looks sqarely at HP) would think that is a good combo.
@@KangoV My pc even with the fan set to 100% used to throttle. Then I tried the afford mentioned method and it stopped. idk what HP is doing but on my machine it was like that.
@@ghomerhust I'm not saying that that was the right amount of cooling for that processor. I'm saying that on my machine it was a problem with HP settings. And I'm saying to everyone that is having problems before surrendering to the idea that their PC, isn't capable to try that method. Cause it worked for me
Hp is really trash in cooling, in laptops it disables tuning up or down the cooler so anytime i try to play a cpu intencive game the cpu will reach 95degree than the fan will actually start to spin at 100% and after 2 mins the laptop will turn off hope they solve this issue
9:48 "hard for me to imagine what goes on behind the scenes"
HP engineers:
HP management: "Put an i9 in it. 😏"
HP engineers: "🤨 But sir/ma'am, that wouldn't-
HP management: *"Put an i9 in it.* 🔫👿"
[some hours before engineering meeting]
HP marketing: "Idiots will buy it just because 9 is bigger than 7 😏"
HP management: 🤑
HP configured this to fail. You're paying for components you'll never be able to use because of the inadequate cooling.
Apple did this with their i9 laptops once.
@@wayland7150 Apple does this with most of their products. It's basically their business model.
@@Evilfaic and yet apple is outperforming the competition on both phone performance and mac performance..hmm
@@Evilfaic Bloody good job they're using ARM now, can't screw up cooling that.
@@wayland7150 Yet M2 reaches above 100 degrees in the 13" macbook pro.
HP has great engineers coming up with good ideas, but they have the shadow engineers. Even SMARTER engineers thinking up bad ideas to counter the good ones.
I'm pretty sure the hp engineers made this setup for the 12400, which could make total sense (if the price was right). Then Marketing guys forced them to put 12900k to clear stocks, which is bs
As electronics engineer, HP test equipments (keysight/agilent) are highly respected and sophisticated. I don't know why their computer department suck so hard.
@@omniyambot9876 Even the test equipment is far from what it used to be back in the day.
HP Laptop Engineer: 🧪🔬🤔🤔🤔
HP Desktop Engineer: 🔨😰🥵🥴
@@DenDodde how can you say? AFAIK Keysight is still at the top of test equipment brands. Their equipments are reliable, accurate, one of the most advanced and expensive stuff..
If they'd just made it a similar form factor to the Mac they could have fitted a full-height GPU in it and basically tripled the CPU cooler. There's two of the three biggest issues taken care of right there. This was definitely marketing getting in the way of design and engineering.
The thing is, even if they made it twice as tall or thick, it would still be very compact AND able to fit a decent cooler in there. Yes, we all want a smaller formfactor but no one buys a WORKSTATION wants to sacrifice lots of performance for a slimmer body.
I think that it's also important to understand how space on a desk is more important than volume. A flat piece of paper takes up much more space than a cup, but the cup has much more volume. So, even 2x the height won't make it take up more space in 99% of situations
I'm starting to think HP actually stands for Hard Pass
Based
so based omg
HP: Horrible Product
I've had nothing but aggravation with the printer I've got. You'd think something this expensive would be a bit different.
@@aarrondias9950 HP: Horse Poo
"How not to make a PC" and "HP" in the same sentence? After watching a ton of GamersNexus' videos, I know that this will definitely be a good episode! 😁
Was he was ever on the WAN show?
i bet 😂😂
@@RealJoseph123 idk about the wan show but he definitely was in some videos on ltt
The H in HP stands for Heat
thats more like dell and their alienware desktops
I *really* appreciate the "scale adjusted for clarity" note on the graphics. Great job keeping charts informative and truthful!
was about to say the same thing!
Even as someone from physics, I know that most people get manipulated by such stuff and I appreciate it immensely that they've clarified it!
I found it made it harder to read the graph because there was a bunch of text on it.
@@jammiewins What irritates me in particular are the colours and choice of symbols. Why the fuck should you use 3 colours for 2 groups of graphs? 1 I understand. 2 I understand. It was also done for the symbols. But why in one case 2 times red and then in the other blue and yellow? Like wtf.
@@jammiewins harder to read? maybe. BUT this makes you more likely to stop and examine it better. a simple graph with shifted axes is much more likely to be skimmed over and misinterpreted.
(at this point I recommend "How to spot a misleading graph - Lea Gaslowitz"; small video on yt)
Yeah LMG has always been good about this I think. There was a video in the past (can't remember now) where Linus went out of his way to point out one of the axes was logarithmic which I really appreciated.
Verry possible that there are not many engineers left in HP but just mainly marketing and lawyers. Frankly, this thing looks like just randomly gathered parts in a prefab case (no custom solutions). And those Engineers who are still left there are working their asses off to release as many products as possible in a short period of time, while this thing needs months and months of preparation. They won't bear Apple, because apple is releasing few products per year and are putting adequate time into each of them.
They don't care about beating Apple because the businesses they are selling to run on Windows and the parts and support agreement is more important than the hardware working right. And if you want to prove that it would save money in the long term to switch, good luck.
@@DannoHung And as result, these devices will flop. Sadly you are right...
Not all but most of the HP desktops are designed either in Taiwan or China by their ODMs
yes they put adequate time into each product, but sadly apple's software lacks some (ios, macos, safari..) real qa-testing.
This is a prime example of what happens when a computer company is run and managed by bean counters that don't know anything about computers.
The whole point of Apple's small Mac, is it doesn't NEED a huge cooler to run. But the HP does. They can't just shove an i9 into an M1 Mac size...
Doesn't stop them shoving i9's into laptops for similar results, Come on Intel, time to get serious with cutting power usage.
did you see the cooler inside the Mac Studio? Its huuuuuge.
@@AngryApple Ikr, the whole thing is basically heatsink. I guess I meant the chassis size overall not the cooler
true
@@adamgreenhill110 yeah, that's another thing though - Apple made the most out of what little space they had in the chassis to more than adequately cool the components, while HP seemingly just used some cooler they already had that wasn't designed for these kinds of loads.
6:18 onwards, the titles should have been HP Z2 12900K vs Bench 12900K. It was a bit confusing to see the Z2 being put on bench and off bench with hugely different results.
Yeah it confused me as well for a bit
As I understand it, they took the actual CPU out of the Z2 and put it on a bench, not just another 12900K they had lying around, as binning could skew the results that way, and _that_ wouldn't come across with that phrasing. No win situation given the brevity needed for graph legends.
I might be a little smooth brained but I always find their graphs very confusing lol
@@jpshawcross bad news. You are, in fact, a little smooth brained.
As a Z workstation owner, it's honestly a bit sad to see HP doing so poorly and just shoving a laptop board into a little rectangle. The design of their large workstations is quite well thought out, and very well built so it's a little disappointing to see them make a very hot mini PC claiming to be a workstation... Heck, my custom z620 workstation from 2012 beats this in specs/performance at 1/5 the price, although it's a solid 60 lbs.
Yes. Can confirm. I own a Z820 with upgraded CPU and Graphics.
@@instantmediainternational Nice! Are you using dual socket? I'm running dual Xeon E5-2690 V1, and a GTX 980 I bought secondhand a few years ago (decent enough for CAD and video rendering)
@@DavisMakesGames I logged-in so I could reply to your first message (I'm writing it this way so I don't have-to-type the-whole-entire-thing: ):
I found a refurbished HP-Z440 that is coming with a 700W power-supply and a EVGA "nVidia GeForce GTX 970". As well as a Intel "Xeon E5-1630 V3" processor (3.7GHz, 4 cores, 8 threads), and 16GB of DDR4 RAM.
Is it worth getting?
Also: I'm trying to find-out what's the ATI (now owned by AMD) equivalent of a "nVidia GeForce GTX 970". (Because I'm going to install Linux on it; specifically, EndeavourOS)*.
Do you (and/or anyone reading this comment/post) have any idea (what the AMD/ATI equivalent of that nVidia graphics-card is) ?
* (to be more specific:
The refurbisher is, (the price I'm mentioning is for a limited time only), offering to upgrade the 256GB SSD for a 512GB SSD for $30, or upgrade the 256GB SSD to a 1TB SSD for $50.
What I'm going to do is ask to change the 256GB SSD for the 1TB SSD, partition the 1TB SSD into two (2) separate segments, then install EndeavourOS into the second segment.
(The reason why I'm keeping a partition with Windows installed on it is in-case I run into any programs I need that are compatible with Windows and not Linux)
(Example: at least for-me thus-far, it's easier to create a LiveUSB of Ventoy on Windows than it is on Linux).
(There are other software I use on Windows that don't have a Linux-"equivalent/counterpart" yet, or a Linux-version--of-that-software yet).
I too had a z620 with 64gb of RAM, 2x 2680v2s, 2 Asus GTX 1070 Turbos, and 4 512gb ssds with W7. It was the most stable PC i have ever owned and I only sold it last November to help fund a Ryzen 5950x/RTX 3090 workstation. I miss it dearly but I hope it is providing a top tier experience for the current owner.
@@reoencarcelado5904 Seems worth getting. The AMD equivalent would be an RX 570 or 580. Try and get a blower card if you can.
I have a client that loves these Z2 minis (they've been getting them since G1) but in diagnosing performance problems I ran into the same problem as you guys with the heat and lack of fan control. These are older G4s with i7s in them and I believe it was P1000s or maybe even T2000s, but still the fans just don't spin up early enough (HWinfo doesn't even show fan speeds for me). I've managed to convince one of their teams to go for the Z2 towers which perform much nicer and has access to much better graphics cards.
I just bought this z mini new for 2000€ in Europe from an official reseller, the mac studio costs above 4000€…I make live visuals performances (live rendering) therefore it is a good compromise between a laptop and a desktop workstation in terms of space and price. The last ten years I used a HP envy with i7 and it still does the job greatly, had to upgrade because it could handle just a double full HD output, which is not enough anymore…now, with all those outputs I won’t need external devices like matrox, anymore. It’s about your personal pros and your personal cons. To me, for example, is extremely important that I can access and upgrade the HW by myself, I have a couple of iPads and though they work great, it makes me mad I cannot access anything in this sealed system.
I don’t think this ws is trash as mentioned in the review, for the price we have in Europe it is a good deal.
Cardboard significantly improving the performance of a pc designed and built by professionals is hilarious
Some bean counter said no to $0.04 of plastic probably.
That was the only way I kept my XBOX 360 from melting itself down to the infamous red ring of death also with tweaked fans and better thermal paste, my believe is that the engineers where aware of the thermal issues of this new workstation but their bosses didn't hear them because they have their heads too deep in their asses just like Microsoft's administration back then.
Feels like the same issue with the i7-12700H and i9-12900H. Apparently the i9-12900H gets throttled so much in most laptops that it has about 2% more power in best results... to about 200 euros/dollars more cost.
welcome to the world of diminishing returns, engineers trying their hardest to meet the unrealistic expectations of the marketing department
They will gladly sell a bad product to the customer who thinks bigger number is better
Yeah. i9 mobile cpu always bad value unless it's in a super thick laptop that costs like $3000 minimum. same w/ the mobile 3080 ti. always bad value
@@SimonBauer7 It wouldn't have been stupid if it could deliver...
On anything small or in a laptop you it's not the best idea to really pass 60 watts unless you're ok with a loud fan and hot PC, which is why IMO since forever an i5 has always performed on par with i7's. Unless of course you can manage over 100 watts of heat well 😅
HP never learns. They saw the Mac and said “we can make something the same size for the same price”
If they had made it as tall as the Ultra they might at least have had a chance of cooling that CPU and airflow for the GPU.
Only makes the video that Anthony made about the future of PCs more relevant. Clearly, there is a need for a powerful workstation PC in a small form factor, that does not get hot, nor consumes much power. Apple has engineered custom silicon to fulfill that need. HP is relying on Intel and Nvidia, neither of whose components can adequately address high performance in a small form factor.
More like marketing yelling at the engineers to do so.
@@alexatkin Uh, doubtful. Apple's chips are 5nm so they physically emit less heat. They're also an SoC so the heat is coming from one spot. Easier to manage one cooling solution than two (CPU and GPU)
@@t1merickson I don't think it's only becouse 5nm and SoC. The M1 ultra is 60W TDP! the i9 is about 250-280W. Apple ARM and OS optimization is much more efficient than x86. I don't think a new 5nm x86 with integrated graphics will be 4 time more efficient than the current ones.
I don't like Apple, but the truth is that Apple's processors are just way more efficient, and pull way more performance from same power input. That's when a RISC ISA(like ARM) meets alien-level engineers.
In particular, I've heard about M1's "Wide instruction decoder", which I believe it means that it can decode a lot of instructions at once(don't know how many though). And I can see why it was easy to expand the decoder: All ARM's instructions fit in single 32-bit word(not sure if aarch64 uses 64-bit instructions), where x86 instructions have different sizes for each instruction. Having identically sized instruction means it is very simple to predict where the next instruction would be at. Also, RISC architectures like ARM have way fewer instructions and simpler instruction format. It's really easy to focus on actual performance of each instruction, compared to x86.
It's just sad that RISC never truly replaced x86 PCs.
so why don't you like apple again? Also yea, I think Linus talked about this in a video, very cool stuff
what poblem apple?
While it’s easy to take the p*ss out of Apple’s launch events, they do clearly have a focussed management team and goals that it appears HP does not have
Seems to me HP has been pretty successful at copying Apple here. The only problem being that they copied the thinking behind the i9 MacBook Pro instead of the Mac Studio
That was Intels bad information not Apple's, it was a big reason Apple decided to make their own chips instead of relying on outside companies
HP: We know how to make the best mini workstation and can rival apple
also HP: We can do the 2 things apple did well the worst. Power efficiency and device cooling.
Why did they even release this product, same for all windows based computers. Don't try to specifically rival apple until you can get at least one of those 2 figured out.
for that E-waste bin, just like dell. if gamer nexus is right...
I doubt most corporate orders they get will even care about the thermal performance issues. As long as they can work on it, they don't care since the specs are all current gen. HP knows this and they will even profit from it.
@@TwoHands12 that's what I was thinking. but still do people that are professionally looking for a work station care that much about small form factors?
i mean, the product itself seems fine. Linus even said so about less powerful configs. and I don't think many businesses will be ordering the 12900k SKU. the only shame is HP offering configs with CPU's that the system in incapable of cooling, the product itself isn't "bad" they just fucked up by allowing you to put the engine of lamborghini into a clown car.
Here is a smart idea HP, in a small chassis why opt for the Intel CPU when an AMD one would have been significantly better, under full load the 5950x consumes much less power than the 12900k, you it would have performed so much better...
Whilst that is true as soon as you don't have a permanent 100% CPU load the 12900(all versions except for the KS) becomes far more efficient than the 5950x.
And as far as I can tell most software benefits the Intel processor.
That being said: the 5950x is the superior rendering/cinebench CPU.
Igor's lab did a great test with Alder Lake.
@@Ocastia just comparing the two at idle... AMD pulls way a head in efficiency that only magnifies on load. Sorry Team blue but you need to step up your game.
And then You get Elitebook G8 with Ryzen 7 5800U ... witch goes 100C every time you hit 30% CPU... no way to adjust the fan... well it goes 100% any way and temp is held at 100C ... so You have fan running at 100% (noise), a steaming hot CPU and You actually doing nothing...
@@jackuzy It suggest a broken heatpipe. I have a 5700u in a Acer aspire 7 and in all core load it never runs hotter then 80C on 4.0 ghz all core.
@@jackuzy it can be a sign of good cooling if it hits 100C but doesn't throttle its the same for my 5800X its just that 5nm is rlly high in energie density so it's hitting high temps even though your cooler is cold af if it hits 100C and doesn't throttle its just a good fan ramp or would you pref it to ramp up to 5000rpm every time you open a folder
I feel like they should have doubled the thickness and using the rest of that GIRTH just for cooling. It would still be about the same size as the Mac Mini Ultra AND would have actually come close to those performance specs. It wouldn't have even cost them that much extra, but would have been a huge performance improvement. You could even have two models based on Girth depending on the hardware inside. You want better specs? buy the girthier one and know you're getting value for your money.
I find it interesting how HP remains in business - their machines have been renown for overheating and throttling issues as far back as over 20 years at this point - and it seems nothing has changed... How on earth are they still getting sales on the consumer market considering their decades long reputation?
It's not a consumer market, it's more of a business. Also they make good servers and workstation (big ones)
@@vadnegru I haven't worked with a company that didn't issue ThinkPads for their employees. I genuinely haven't seen a HP machine outside of consumer market in my entire professional life.
@@Micromation some schools and hospitals do.
TRUE
@@vadnegru same never saw a business using it , everyone uses dell or thinkpad.
HP is an expert at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
😂
I’d love to see the Z2 tested with a ‘T’ class chip to see if the performance is improved over the K counterpart.
The problem is that T chips aren't sold anymore and have to be scavenged from other OEM system. It's no problem for LTT, but I doubt anyone will just do it. Just a basic non K chip should be already a massive upgrade, since it has PL1 set at 65 watts.
No way, the T chips are clocked far too low for that to happen.
12900K, 12900, 12900T, 12700K, 12700, 12700T, 12600K
tested with normal config AND best case (100% fan, added shroud)
let's see how badly hp messed this up.
@@SweBeach2023 If an i7 outperforms the i9 because it’s not throttled in the same way, an i9-12900T might deliver even better performance as its power limits are within what the board can handle, the temperature output should be lower, and it retains the higher thread/core count.
@@MJ-uk6lu When did LTT ever care about the audience copying the nonsense they do? Whole room water cooling, no internet scrapyard wars, the ultimate Hack Pro, all the servers, I think it’s more about entertainment value than making informed buying choices, I go to Tech Jesus for that 😂
I guess this is a testament to how far ahead Apple is when it comes to their silicon. Hopefully ARM catches up for everyone else in the near future, as there’s some real potential in that space.
If ARM can catch up, I hope they can be better! I kinda don't wanna see Apple win...
Hope so too. I hope that Microsoft can make good Windows on Arm, but they’re really behind there.
@@theunreal_TOEBEANS You don’t need to tie yourself into a pretzel to avoid admitting a company you disagree with has made a objectively better product that its competitors.
There's a lot of reason why Apple wins, most of them tie down to their loyal customer base and their vertical integration which has a snowball effect, but also to their product design philosophy in general
@@DistrosProjects The sad thing is that Microsoft really bungled it up. They had Win 10 run on ARM in late 2016, yet they never bothered to build a proper developer PC, and they never bothered to make the windows license platform-agnostic, as they should have. Microsoft had 3.5 years advantage, and they lost it all.
When I got my Mac Studio (base ultra, 48-core GPU but extra storage) I tried Tomb Raider on it and played for awhile then I had to leave and do other things. I forgot about it and came back hours later and realised I'd left it on. It was still silent and airflow at the back was cool. It's really quite strange.
I'm reminded of several years back when Apple's top-end laptop throttled so much that it was actually slower than a lesser model. I'm not saying that to make it PC or HP vs. Apple. It was a crap design when Apple did it, and it's a crap design on HP's part. What an epic failure. Unacceptable.
The “I’ll do it again” goofy killed me
I darted straight to the comment section to find this haha.
Honestly at this point its just funny how few even remotely good high spec pre builts there are.
Always go with a custom PC. Prebuilts are a ripoff.
@@ghostraider4312 most of them but definitley not all
@@ghostraider4312 For individuals yes, but half the reasons why enterprise workstations are there is so that the company have some support in case of problems with the hardware (hence why business class computers can cost more then a normal pc).
BUT there are clearly better options out there compared to HP's...solution in this video.
@@Shadowninja1200 If they only care about specs I actually think they should switch to Mac Studio assuming macOS can run their software. So far on the PC side of things not much is being done to compete with Apple silicon.
I absolutely love how the chapters in the description just give up and call all the problems "HP things" near the end LMAO.
Lol I just noticed that
People really under appreciate the Mac Studio. Reliable, cool and gets the job done every time.
I don't get it, why compromise performance to make it small form factor? It's marketed to professionals. Professionals use the best equipment no matter how much power and space it uses. You don't see professional photographers and videographers swap out their full frame DSLRs or cinema cameras for tiny point and shoot cameras because they have better battery life and take up less space.
@@rubiconnn How is performance being compromised by the form factor? The Ultra configuration is their most powerful offering and it runs quite well as is. I'm a professional that bought one for work and it absolutely crushes anything we throw at it.
@@jtl909 Compare the CPU to all other CPUs and you'll see that the M1 gets stomped by professional grade CPUs. The M1 is a low power chip meant for portability and low power usage. While it has great ratio of performance per watt it's pretty low on the overall performance rating.
@@rubiconnn You talk nonsense. Why is the entire mobile phone industry using ARM cores (Cortex-A) then? Explain your claim.
@@TheEddie581 Because phones are limited by the batteries. You can only squeeze out a few watts of power from a phone battery. A wall outlet can put out 1500+ watts of power for an unlimited amount of time.
Finally a good tech outlet that point to HP errors. I had so much problems with there prebuilds exactly the same issues as shown here. And HP ignoring all and give 0 support\feedback.
I’m one of the rare watchers who has close to zero interest in games so find videos like this very helpful. Like some other commenters mention, I would also be keen to see some more workstation builds here, especially developer oriented ones.
Same here. Would love more workstation/HEDT content.
Same here on lack of interest in games, However games do make good stress testers for PC's
Yep. My PC hobbies are all creative workstation applications. FPS and RGB means nothing to me, but I'd love to hear more from audio production and the 3D modelling perpective.
Apple: We have the best mini work station!
Hp: Yeah right we have the way better wor-
(Thermals being way higher and apple still beating them in shadow the tomb raider)
Hp: Yeah you have the best work station
You know something is wrong when Apple is winning in the gaming department…
Shadow of tomb raider. A years old title. Wanna see how cyberpunk run
If they weren't chasing making it fit in an unnecessarily small case, a larger cooling stack with more fans front and back coupled with a default under-volt on the CPU could potentially make it work. That would require them to focus on engineering a new cooling solution specifically to address the issue and isn't something HP is likely to do. They seem to want to operate like Dell when it comes to designing workstations.
I'd call the case fraudulent anyway, as they externalized the PSU. So half of the PC isn't even inside the PC.
Hell the Mac Pro is bigger than the HP
@@graealex That comes around to more of the Dell style of operating I mentioned. They're using things they already have on hand instead of going full boutique in the fight.
They could have engineered a custom cooler and PSU to fit inside a larger case and got the job done, but they used off the shelf parts that should have never been approved in the first place.
If they were serious about trying to compete with Apple, they should have made a custom case to come in at the same footprint as the Mac Studio. They instead used what was likely an already existing frame from one of their other minis and just put a newer shroud around it.
I wonder why though. like the engineers can't be this stupid right? so there must be a demand for these silly things or something.
@@zwenkwiel816 It's likely corporate oversight putting restrictions on them. Larger corporations always have the issue of too many cooks with their finger in the pot.
I don't personally use Apple products at all I'm my daily life, however I had to say they're the one group of people that can market. Like small Mac for studio type work, 'mac studio' windows intergrater gets hold of the product category and calls it the Megatron mega Gluck V5, absolutely ridiculous
nah
and proceed to design their product like they are designing spaceship or jet fighter or sum lol
The A2000 (192-bit memory, 26 SMs) is closer to a lower-clocked 3060 (192-bit memory, 28 SMs) than a 3050 (128-bit memory, 20 SMs) but probably closer to the latter in gaming due to the lower clocks
In Slovakia HP jokingly stands for "Hádam pôjde" which means "Guess it'll work"
HP?
HP's higher tier Z workstations (I used a Z620 for years) were my example for well-built workstations, especially when it comes to getting air away from components instead just blowing it around aimlessly.
That the Z2 now can be improved with a cardboard shroud....embarrasing.
Working in R&D myself (chemical rather PC), I imagine some big wig with no idea of engineering told the R&D people they want the best parts in a 3.5L case no matter what and that's the best they could do considering they cannot change the physics behind heat transfer (that being said they fucked up by locking stuff like fan controls)
The Mac Studio w/ M1 Ultra and maxed out SSD & Ram is nearly $1,300 cheaper than a maxed out HP Z2 Mini G9. Wow.
As someone who repair computers for a living, this doesn't surprise me in the slightest. I don't think I've ever seen a single HP computer come into my work that I didn't have some complaint about. Whenever people ask me which HP to buy, I try as hard as I can to point them to other brands instead.
I think it was pointed out in another video on how apple's arm solution was a key factor in how they were able to have such a small form factor and incredible performance. It made it extremely power efficient. Expecting a powerful x86 processor to keep up in this small form factor is foolhardy with their TDP.
It's annoying being lied to and a cheaper better product could have been made with less expensive parts that performed just as well in the same form factor.
what makes the macs powerful is the seemless software and hardware integration....if microsoft had their own x86 SoC custom created to work with a custom version of windows, I bet they could perform just as well....
@@post-leftluddite I don't think right now that's apple's strong point as their arm chips are still pretty much in transition and there's a ton of software which runs through Rosetta, so I'll agree with the first dude here.
@@post-leftluddite you can't have "custom" x86 CPU architecture. They must all run on the same underlying principles. There are slight variations between AMD and Intel but the code for that is mostly up to the company in charge. Windows has to account for the differences in both architectures and still run well no matter the system. Its generalised software for generalised hardware. The moment you go custom is the moment it's no longer x86. There was a small arm windows stint but it didn't work very well or last very long either. Lack of interest, time and resources.
Even then, it's as you said, apple has seamless integration of hardware and software because ALL of the hardware is the same or pretty damn close. The PC market isn't like that and it's pretty much an every colour of the rainbow scenario because PC builders want to make their own PC's and have it RGB or whatever. You have to make sure all the hardware combinations work and they may not even work well.
I may not like apple and their scummy ways but when the engineers do something right, they do it really well.
I would have bought one of these had I not watched this video. Thanks for the great unbiased work.
i mean, at the end of the video he roughly says that the system is fine in a less powerful config. If someone is smart enough to know they need a 12900k worth of CPU power, they know that buying one in such a small AIO chassis probably won't work very well. The video felt a bit "baity" in that sense, yes HP offers the config, but they also offer many other configs that would work just fine. The product is fine, it seems HP just needs to remove the option for a 12900k.
@@modestmouse6 the thing is. Its not just the processor, its the motherboard HP made themselves made the power throttle when they put on i7 in it . Which means HP just fuck the customer even if you made a good decision.
@@Ahfeku trruuuue I forgot that and oversaw it when writing my comment. It kind of makes sense from an enterprise perspective, you don't really want people without experience tinkering with things they perhaps shouldn't (raising power limits could push thermals beyond what anything can handle, or pop the PSU) but I suppose that's also why most companies have a well equipped IT department these days.
You would've dumped $5K into something so weak? Ridiculous.
Check out the Velkase Velka 3, LTT did a video on it a couple of years ago
Is HP the GM of the computer world? Capable of amazing innovation but simultaneously can’t get out of their own way to achieve true greatness?
HP/E is the recipient of Silicon Graphics and Cray Research and they don't do anything with those patents
swap it with Chrysler and it still stands.
wow a newbie petrol-head making yet another meritless analogy
besides Buick their line up doesn't suck and even those drony things are bought by idiots
@@bradhaines3142 The Corvette is beautiful yet flawed.
At least GM usually built correctly running car, HP seems to only pump out Multiplas and Azteks or building a Vette, which overheats and can't even use half of its engine due to that. HP is a lot worse than GM.
Yeah when I learned about the specs of this mini-PC I know that enclosure is going to melt.
Good job HP! You created a toaster
haahahahah, screw it hp
At this point you can't convince me that OEMs aren't deliberately engineering their computers to overheat. They can spend less on the cooling, and it makes them fail faster so you have to replace them sooner. I had a Pentium 4 back in the 2000s that would ramp up the fans at the first sign of temps beginning to rise, and now basically every computer on the market now doesn't do that until temps get dangerously high.
Oh dear! It sounds like a conspiracy, but that _is_ planned obsolescence for you.... 😔 At least it's good to have this information and realize this as consumers!
Shows you why Apple Silicon and performance efficiency is far more relevant than "absolute" performance that some of the PC crowd seems to champion. PCs can keep up with (and exceed) the new Mac chips with unlimited power and space budgets - but in these kinds of smaller form factors (or laptops) you see the huge advantage of power efficiency.
You can have your power efficiency, when my motherboard died last week I was able to replace it for less than $200, fix it myself, and am back up and running as if nothing had changed. I didn't have to consult with anyone or be bullied into buying a new machine. I'm willing to pay a few extra $ per month on electricity for that convenience.
Anyone else not surprised by these results? The hp laptop from my work functions decently, better than the stupid 2in1 I had from them before, but they never learn as my last personal hp laptop had horrible thermals and settings. Also never call their tech support if you have any tech knowledge, you’ll know more than the first few people you talk to.
"Well, the processor's base power is 125W so, we'll just place a 125W cooler in it and it's fine!"
Did HP forget how processors work?
They didn't forget, they never knew.
its not about how well it works, its about how much money it makes them
+HP put 65W cooler on i7-8700
You will never catch me buying any "Horse Poo" branded computer ever again. After the issues I had with my HP Elite Slice when I got it brand new, support vanished basically a year after I got it, despite having 3yr onsite warranty, the helpdesk was next to useless, they could never work out why the device often failed to power on during winter time here in Western Australia.
Had so many issues with their laptops too.
I don't think people who are doing workstation level work would want convenience of a smaller form factor over computational power.
Really ? You seen how many Macs they sell ?
I guess they are in between a laptop and a desk tower. Personally I've used laptops a lot for music shows or recording sessions. I just bought a mac studio and it fits in a small bag, so it's almost as portable as a laptop, but with better specs and a lower price, and most studios have monitors and mouse/keyboard. And also, most of the time I use my laptop as a desk tower when I'm at home. So I guess it really depends on what you do with your PC.
Engineers didn't make the design specifications for this machine, some businessmen with no technical knowledge did.
Marketing sees small form factors are popular they then want to cram as much horsepower in the box as they can even when engineering is pleading how bad of an idea it is.
The truly sad thing it will probably sell like hot cakes because clueless managers buy them up against recommendations of it and engineering departments
HP's poor build quality really is one of their signatures. I was shopping for a used 2-in-1 laptop recently and I've seen so many HP laptops with hinge issues and it seems like every HP laptop I looked at had rubber feet that were at least starting to fall off if not completely gone. Ended up getting a ThinkPad instead (mostly because it was a good deal admittedley but the build quality was an important factor.)
Also the X1 Yoga Gen 3 has the "wave keyboard" where it goes inside in tablet mode, and it was just too cool to pass up on. HP basically never do cool stuff like that! (although Lenovo got rid of it too in the gen 4 which sucks because it's cool!!!!)
Want to know something funny? You literally described 2 out of the 3 main problems I have with my Envy 13. Hinge is damaged on one side, rubber on the bottom is peeling off and the speakers make a crackling noice on one of the sides. Will never buy a normal HP product again. Their Victus line of laptops is actually quite decent on the other hand though.
Its either hinge issues or where the hinge attaches to on the display on HP's. 3/4 of the HP laptops ive seen have this issue
ThinkPad owner here. Got multiple used from a school that used them with children and needed to upgrade to Chromebooks. ThinkPad e550s from about 2014, and they run amazing. They don't have the fastest hardware, but they've survived this long and are going to keep on chugging. ThinkPads are my favorite laptop lineup.
Hinge issues are just common across the board on Windows laptops, I've seen them on Dell, HP and even Lenovo. That just sucks.
@@abhimaanmayadam5713 Always has been.
I'll just say this, depending on current price for this HP, they'll have to know I'm only willing to pay 25$ for it considering it's benchmarks.
I work in corporate IT where we buy a bunch of these kinds of things, and greater than 1Gbps Ethernet is a waste. We have 10Gbps fiber runs between data centers in our facility, but we’re in manufacturing so there are plenty of devices on our network that can’t go above 100Mbps, and some are even half duplex. So, those serial connectors would actually be much more useful, because we could use them to replace older embedded PCs that control expensive gauges, which need serial connections to the PLCs inside the gauge,
Honestly, I’d like to see them toss a serial port on their Z-Books so our engineers don’t need to use as many dongles. If it can run CAD software, this thing is fine, and if it draws less power and takes up less space then it’s even better.
From the get Im reminded of compulabs’ airtop3. It’s pretty old now and ships with three year old specs, but if HP had released something like then, they’d be absolutely trounced.
I have a HP Z2 Mini G3 and it’s been solid and pretty quick for a 6700K. Was weighing up a G9 but having seen this I’m now glad I decided to go for a custom full ATX workstation. It’s a shame the 12th Gen Intel stuff is so power hungry and hot.
its time for intel to release SoC with at most using 3nm architecture for ATX build and laptops. rn apple is 2 years ahead with the release of M2. just wait for apple to fully support gaming and intel is doomed.
Something you should do with labs is value for performance metrics so people can see if upgrading to the i9 version of a laptop from the i7 is worth the thermal throttle or if its worse in a cost to performance scenario
I9 is always worse in a cost to performance scenario to any other cpu. The highest cost to performance you get at an i3 from there on it gets lower, nothing wrong with that though !
@@bradhaines3142 well I just know these past few generations i3 was very good.. no idea about before that
Working for HP as a system engineer must be hard, you got your qualifications, years of experience and all the ambition.
Your task: Going through all the stress-induced headaches to achieve the impossible performance specs your dipshit boss invents, pulling as much as you can to make the miracle happen, then still gets roasted by the community in the end.
Gotta love the volumes in metric with lengths in imperial in the same frame
Forgive me if I've missed something, but how did either of the Mac units run anything CUDA at 4:53?
Honestly I still don't know why apple isn't getting into gaming business I mean I'm not a fan of Apple but seeing how efficient and powerful their silicon is and it's only being limited by the software and support, It just screams to me that if they try they will be a serious competition to Nvidia and AMD (and possibly Intel)
And it's not like Macs have never been used for gaming. Bungie, of Halo and Destiny fame, made their first games for the Mac. Lots of edutainment games were made for the Mac. I have fond memories of Mac gaming in my youth.
Because it’s not profitable enough to be worth the additional effort. Over 50% of gaming revenue comes from smartphone and tablet games. Look how they’re raking it in with app store fees. Basically they’re like Valve’s situation with Steam.
Apple is already into gaming. Apple Arcade exists for that reason. The games library is getting bigger and better just like when Steam was started.
@@scienceguy8 Did you know that Halo was actually first demoed at an Apple keynote? Did you know that at the same keynote they also demoed a literal PlayStation emulator on stage?
There's always the Apple Pippen.
Obviously an i5 would perform amazingly better given the same cooling constraints. The throttling effect is very costly on cpu cycles. The i5 might still throttle given the constraints, but it will likely throttle less often, especially the lower power variants.
I love these mini cases. I buy them for 60 bucks on AliExpress and mount AMD APUs inside. They make wonderful workstations (you don't need a dedicated GPU for workstations unless they are for video editing). Fast, small, just wonderful.
Yep and AMD apu’s are generally quicker then intel’s and the onboard graphics are way better for AMD then intel
They are different products, this one is targeting high end content production and it's positioned against the Mac Studio Ultra but is a total failure. What you buy are highly optimized boxes for office tasks
@@gabrielesartori3308 If by content you mean video, yes. I'm actually a professional 2d artist and a ryzen 5700g is way above my needs. I do have 64gb RAM and high end nvme disks, tho, because those things really make a difference. The gpu doesn't.
@@jal051 And photography, and 3d modelling... GPUs not just for video.
@@utopian666 Not photography. That's 2d too.
Apple showed from 2016 to 2020 in their MacBook pros that having far to power hungry chips inside tiny chassis is a very bad idea and cause thermal throttle. People might think other manufacturers understood the backlash Apple received for years and how it almost destroyed their position in the laptop market. If not for M1, Apple would have slowly become a phone manufacturers and that’s it.
Why then so we see things like this HP workstation being at least 3 times to small to fit its components and sufficient thermal dissipation stuff as well.
10 years ago HP outsourced their engineering to China. It explains everything about HP since then. They bought and took out Compaq to gain market share because they were so horrible years before that.
I did small business sales for a local IT company for a few years. I pushed lenovo thinkcetres but right before I took over dozens of Intel NUCs had been sold and deployed to a lot of clients. Over the next 3 years I saw most of those devices fail, not just some, pretty much all of them. I really wish it was more well known how much intel screwed people with those devices.
I have about 20 NUC's deployed behind conference room displays at my job, and we haven't had any real hardware failures. They are mostly 6th-8th gen processors, and have been running fine... so that is a decent amount of years given the cramped space we have them in, running 24/7/365. I am not saying you are wrong, since all companies are screwing their customers in some way... but we definitely have a difference in perspective on the hardware.
I love Lenovo's products and what they do as a company. They're probably the only company I would recommend for the enterprise sector and dell only because Dell has good warranty and customer service because they're so huge, but Lenovos products feel superior.
@@jong2359 are those the Skull Canyon nucs or the cheaper ones you could buy barebones?
@@Sakosaga I'm with you, especially in a mission critical situation or less than optimal environment like a shop. I have had lenovo Thinkstations running laser cutters as well as long term dirty agricultural applications and never had one fail. I'm in the AV and high end residential world now but i really respect the lenovo Think series products
@@catalyst429 I mean - they are cheaper now... but we payed $500-600 for them. They are all from the Swift Canyon and Bean Canyon series.
HP actually made a very impressive mobile workstation.
The HP Elite Desk 805G6 Mini had a Ryzen 7 4750GE, and a GTX 1660TI(mobile) and it was something like $1100 with that plus 512GB SSD and 16GB of RAM(not ECC though the CPU supports it, i've tested in my 4750GE)
i bought it 10500H with 3060 in a laptop package for $1100.
1660Ti mobile is a joke mate.
@@alexamderhamiltom5238 but eventually battery will wear out
@@alexamderhamiltom5238 Cool story bro, tell me more, let me tell you something about the HP, It was launched more than a year before RTX 30 series launch, also, this thing is the size of a Mac Mini, i'd love to get an RTX 3060 in a Mac Mini sized machine, especially if it has Ryzen 5000/6000H, or i7-1260P
@@mixedup5858 bold of you to assume i'm using the battery.
i bought the laptop when VGA cards were so damn expensive i was thinking about buying new pc.
I've had many different computers over the years. Some I loved, some I didn't... but the worst machine I've ever owned, bar none, was an HP Pavilion laptop. The screen was the only redeeming thing about it - it was a very nice, bright, reasonably color-accurate XGA screen.
The Z2 is like seeing someone in a pickup truck with a 4" lift, off-road tires and a winch, and knowing it will never see a lick of mud.
0:10 They knew it was being sent over to Linus so they added drop protection to the box in that fashion.
Macs had the same thermal issues when they were on x86. Sticking old school tech in modern enclosures may give the illusion of progress but it harms performance.
It's so bizarre to me- it really feels like these companies want you to have a slow computer. And not in a "We sell you poison, then sell you the antidote" kinda way because they're not even selling better computers.
I was looking at these new HP's and decided against them last week, you just solidified my decision.
wow this is a great review and HP needs to literally review this frame by frame
It’s like they didn’t even test it, let alone benchmark it.
I know this is very basic but I wonder Linus tried Active cooling policy in Windows Power Options. hp advises to make their workstations quieter by changing from Active to Passive. which means starts slowing down rather than kicking the fan.
My Mac Studio Base model is amazingly fast for everything I do, I have a gaming PC for games so not missing out on anything. It also draws almost no power!
Way to go, now Intel, listen to the last bit, 'draws almost no power'
Yeah I absolutely love my M1 Max Mac Studio. I got the higher spec 32 core GPU variant, but otherwise it’s the base model and hooo boy does it fly.
I actually game on it too when a game runs on Mac or it’s a retro windows title I can run through Rosetta. I have an RTX 3060/Ryzen 9 5900HS laptop that I boot up for games that aren’t on Mac. But, the games that are and run through the Metal API absolutely demolish my laptop in performance, especially if their ARM native, which makes me want even more games for Mac.
Using the Apple Silicon-native/ Vulkan to Metal version of vkQuake (modern source port of the Quake engine), my M1 Max Mac Studio gets more than twice the frame rate of my RTX gaming laptop, which might sound useless for a retro game, but when you’re running these games on a 240Hz monitor while running modern mods and DLC, my gaming laptop will often dip below 120 FPS while playing Quake while the Mac Studio is usually sitting above 500 and getting all the way up to 2,000 FPS. And playing a modern game like Metro Exodus or Warhammer III doesn’t even make the fans spin up on the machine. When a game is written for Apple Silicon, I totally understand why Apple has abandoned Intel.
Aside from gaming, it feels like it’s ever “processing” anything. The first time I exported a 1080p clip in iMovie I was like, “Okay where’s the loading bar so I can see how long this is going to take?” Little did I know the whole project exported in a few seconds while I glanced at my phone.
Apple does seem to be bringing the gaming to Mac on their proprietary chipsets. It will take allot of configuration to port AAA games to work on M1. (more likely their future chips.) but apple does want to kill the no gaming on mac stereotype, and are trying to get more developer to support M1 macs.(and beyond)
That would be so cool, gaming is literally the only reason I use shitty windows
@@vatu After just spending a year using MacOS in addition to Linux and Windows, I'd have to say MacOS is the shittiest OS out of all three. It shouldn't be, but their UI is stupidly restricted and un-intuitive to use, with lots of really stupid niggling issues.
@@alexatkin the UI is a matter of opinion, but in game the OS UI is a non factor.
@@alexatkin Restricted you say, but user control over the system is still much higher on macOS than Windows.
You can't beat BSD based.
Well it is interesting to see nothing has changed with HP. Still building them their same old HP ways.
A few years ago I would never have believed that an Apple computer would be the fastest you can buy, let alone the most power-efficient, coolest, quietest and, most critically, not be insanely overpriced. I even bought my first iPhone this year. Apple have responded to former haters with genuine innovation, kudos to them. It will take years for Intel & AMD to catch up
7:20 "Scale adjusted for clarity" - very much appreciated LTT!
I guess to me the obvious question is, would they have been better off (or at least less bad off) going with AMD processors rather than Intel in this product? If you have it stuck in your mind that you want to deliver a product in a tiny case that can't handle delivering more than 125 watts and can't cool more than 125 watts it just seems... crazy to decide to build your high end model off a part that doesn't really shine unless it's sucking down far more than that. Yeah a 12900k will beat anything from Zen 3 (in any professional workload) in unlimited power scenarios but a SFF brick-like PC isn't an unlimited power scenario.
I guess I would guess that someone along the line, probably a product manager, figured that being able to say 12900k on the box mattered more than actually delivering a product that maximized the strengths of the 12900k rather than highlighting its weaknesses?
It'd probably suck less and take a longer time to throttle, but it's still gonna suck.
Almost certainly, 5950X performs very well in productivity with far less power, but I don't think any HP desktops have AMD processors. Probably have a deal with Intel or something
@@MrDangerousshark Too many ignorant executives that fall for Intel's marketing.
You know I have a feeling hp intentionally lets their devices thermal throttle so they don't last and you have to go buy a new one. The longer you keep that poor cpu at temps like that, the more likely you are to have something basically melt off.
Thermal throttling is better than staying at 100°
Well, it would be worse for the lifespan if it didn't throttle.
@Michael Rostom what kind of normie buys a workstation lmao
@@rajat1960 you would be suprised by the amount of people that, do because expensive pc = better pc, right?
Your plugging and Sponsors Transitions are always sooooooo smooth and unexpected. Keep it Up!
For a proper mini workstation "pc" someone shpuld use a 12900hk (laptop) and 3080ti mobile and ample of cooling in a mac studio sized chasis. The mobile parts would be easier to cool and use less power.
Considering our poor climate outlook, it's surprising PC manufacturers aren't trying to outdo each other with efficiency rather than just trying to out-market each other. Businesses can be tempted by green ratings and power savings over time especially with dozens of machines in an office.
Yet here we are with 240W space heaters on desks that run like crap because they use garbage designs.
3:39 Calling it a 3060 with all those things would have been more accurate considering it has the same amount of cores and the same memory setup as the 3060, performance wise it performs identically to a 3050 though because of it's lower clocks, but you make it sound as if it's a lower clocked 3050, which it is not.
Once again, HP shows that they can really bring the heat!
That is enough heat to completely wreck the performance of what should have been an epic machine. *sigh*
It's something they have been doing for liek decade at this point.
What if HP had gone with an AMD processor? Would the heat situation have been better?
probably not, the chip would still not be able to run at it's full potential regardless of the hardware inside. HP just sucks making computers in general, theres always some issue(s) with all their machines.
it would have been a bank robbery...
the hardware itself is bad including the mobo what can the cpu swap would do
The problem with all those other workstation “benefits” is if they’re already lying about it being the fastest small form factor workstation, who’s to say they didn’t lie about the reliability tests? or the other certifications?
“I’ll do it again” goofy was a great touch in editing