Tear mirror was the wildest experience in MD. Especially after they reduced the timer. It was so insane to be on Turn 0 (your opp went first) and your timer is warning you that it's under 30 seconds left because you've both been throwing around mega chain link after mega chain link
@@stretchxg Both subjective opinions. Personally I think Tear, though it was tier 0, was the best a tier 0 format could be. The mirror was fun and interactive. It didnt just depend on who won the die roll or who drew more handtraps, like SE. Son not awful imo. Not amazing, but not bad.
I loved playing Tear mirrors. It didn't matter who went first or second, and playing in the opponent's turn felt very interactive. Tear was just way ahead of it's time, If yugioh has a future, Tearlaments is the template Konami should follow.
Tier 1 is when a strategy is the 'best' thing you could be doing in a given format. Tier 0 is when a strategy is the 'only' thing worth doing in a given format. These are not the same.
This was very similar to when Chimera released and people thought it was such a good deck when it was merely popular for 1 month. Then Unchained was popular and the results shifted in it's favor until R-Ace was seen as the best deck and then Unchained fell off. All those decks were viable in a low power format and none were remotely dominant based on power level, it was just the players massively over representing the perceived strongest deck in the moment.
11:22 „Ok guys, but with all due respect, how are you not prepared for Kashtira at this point? It's a little ridiculous to not have a well thought out plan when entering a tournament.“
Best indicator of Tier 0 format is a "best deck" that also forces Josh to play it in big tournaments, even if it's not his favorite or he doesn't like playing it. Basically, a deck that's so overwhelmingly strong that Josh couldn't find any other options but to play it himself The last deck that fit this criteria was Tear, obviously. But since then, we never see Josh play "best decks" like Kashtira or Snake-Eyes in any big event like YCS or Euros, so none of those were ever T0
Tier 0 = 65% = 2/3 of the pie chart. Its that simple. It has to be a super majority. Why are people calling tier 0 when its around 40%? That's just stupid.
@@LazurBeemz Because 65% is your bare minimum since there are tier zero formats where it even far surpasses that, Spyral format had over 90% reps and Zoo format had where the entire top 32 plays Zoo engine, 65% is really being generous.
I won’t lie it bugs me when a 35-40% breakdown is tier zero. It’s not. Tier 0 means 65% or more. Take like spyral and tear. The only deck I legit think deserved to be called tier 0 when it wasn’t was unchained. The deck had the ability to be completely unbeatable but is so complex we only ever made tier 1.
honestly for me T0 means if you dont bring that deck than dont bother to go anyway so t0 in my eyes should be atleast 90% not 65% aslong as other decks also win that means allready there is other playable decks. :D
Tear zero format also implies oppression over a decent amount of time. A deck getting a super high percentage for like two tournaments does not mean a tear 0 "format"
I think this is just a case of Sunny doubling down on his initial opinion, sure Reziel isn't as bad as other tier 1-0 decks, but it's still the most represented by a wide margin and it's way more telling this type of data in the ocg since the price entry is waaaay lower, unlike the tcg which is a wallet vs wallet format all the time.
The eastern Yugioh scene is so different they have so much less room to complain. Rescue ace pre snake eyes was a near tier 0 deck for them, while we were zone locking with kash and ftking. We spend 6 months to a year and a half suffering the same decks while they spend barely 4-6 months. Not to to mention the rarity spread being a barrier to entry in literal casuals.
@@abdurachmanromzy4778I disagree looking at their banlist they hit way more than fenrir. Tcg hit the right card in ariseheart seeing as they have way less hits to the deck.
@@cuttlefish6839 while its true that not only fenrir that getting hit (unicorn also limited as well) at least it prove that ariseheart wasnt actual problem card from beginning (in kashtira case) as its never seen again anywhere since that banlist
@@cuttlefish6839 I won't call it right when people figured out that Kash cards are way stronger in strong decks than in pure Kash, pre fiendsmith Kash Snake Eyes got significant amount of tops in TCG, OCG Konami just sense it way earlier
@@cuttlefish6839 Fenrir is a VERY problematic card even BEFORE Ariseheart. Since he was EVERYWHERE and that meant a target was place on him ever since DABL Format. Fenrir was the most logical hit for them at that moment, and then eventually after Ariseheart release Fenrir got the ban hammer since, 1. Fenrir was already on the Konami hit list. 2. Ariseheart was JUST release. So hitting Fenrir, the one that made getting to Ariseheart easier has to go. (And also Unicorn too.)
As literacy declines, people latch on to phrases that best describe what they feel, rather than what’s accurate… and ygo players never read to begin with
Personally I think if a deck has over 50% representation and is winning almost every major event consistently (for example snake eye variants and tear winning every YCS they entered until their major banlist) is tier 0. This is because if it’s over 50% it means that 1 deck has more representation than every other deck in top cut combined, and if it’s winning the event it shows it isn’t just numbers but that it is in fact the only deck winning. It’s important that I think both should be true not just 1 or the other.
I think the argument of people using the word tier zero at lot you made is this video is very cherry picky because the deck people have been complaining about and calling tier zero (which while incorrect is kinda valid?) is a deck that’s also been consistently the best deck in the format for almost more than a year now
And what makes a deck the best? Is there a certain amount of ycs that it has to win or regionals? People don't know what to call it. Now that I think about it, I wonder where the 65 percent representation definition came from.
Tier 0 is when every single other deck needs to be strictly built to beat it, concedes every other match up (for the most part), and still doesn’t beat the tier 0 deck most the time. There’s been tier 0 formats where people just refused to play the deck. It was still tier 0 even if data didn’t represent it.
On the topic of if defining tier 0 by numbers is right or not I would say one of the biggest issues is that realistically we just don't get enough of the right numbers to do so. Just taking overall entrance numbers and how they compare to top cut is likely to result in popularity being more important to how we rate power than it should be. Ideally we would have full breakdowns not just for the win percentage of each deck but also how that compares going first or second and then having that information comparing each combination of decks against each other. As far as im aware we don't really have that level of detail available resulting in trying to form options based on a very narrow section of the full data set...
That is so specific it won't even get to that half the time, unlike kash where the floodgates are built into the archetype and can go to them almost consistently.
What it should define a Tier 0 Deck is not just the representation but also adding to it the win rate, which I think is most important to determine a T0 Deck, so maybe Win Rate, Top representation and Matchup Chart should be the main things you should have to look for when you're saying a deck is T0
I disagree, is not about the data, is about correctly using the data. We don't always have the correct data, as what we need to be looking at is conversion rates rather than popularity, best decks usually gather both, but is not always the case. Everyone loves to think that frog was this undiscovered deck in TSHD format, but we actually had a few regional tops and some one at dgz actually brought in the discussion of best deck and was laughed at. Regardless, overrepresentation is indeed a problem regardless of power level alone. Ryzeal is now at 45% of top cuts as the sole tier 1 deck. Playing half of your games vs the same strategy tends to burn out casual players quickly; also, it could have been avoided. Ocg has this weird tendency of overhitting 6 month old stuff: yubel was a tier 3 deck before the last list and was destroyed, fiendsmith hits were overkill when just banning lacrima fusion was enough, etc.
About the point of the 8 decks that suck to play against: there are also the 8 decks that summon halq into linkross, or phoenix into mermaid, where there are "a lot of decks" but they all end on the same board except for one point of interaction.
I think board breaker formats tend to be the healthiest because cards like Dark Ruler and Evenly Matched don't instantly win you the game and while they do allow you to setup game winning boards they don't stop the opponent from taking back their winning position. Maybe with the release of the Mulcharmies it would be smart to finally ban Effect Veiler and Impermanence because it would weaken the pure hand trap builds to a acceptable degree by getting rid of the ones that don't suck if you draw 2 or 3 of them. I think this would be a acceptable change for the better because this makes going first significantly weaker and going 2nd significantly stronger but going first would still be better regardless of such potential changes. I believe that we are in a golden age of Yu-Gi-Oh where board breakers are probably the best because going first almost any deck with a high enough ground can win and going 2nd you have board breakers plus Mulcharmies to help you get into them. Decisions such as playing Fenrir may come up more often for decks that have a lot of room for non-engine because of all of the extra room you get from maining or sideing a board breaker approach. Whether Fuwalos is here to stay or not just having Perulea and Nyalus alone would be enough in combination with side deck staples like Droll and Nibiru. The caveat to making board breakers good by giving people the chance to have multiples of ones they can use more than once in their hand is that this makes mixing 3 or 4 small and explosive engines like Azamina and Fiendsmith easier to do meaning it'll be healthy in some ways and terrible in others. We have seen how board breaker formats can be bad for the game in formats where decks like Branded exist. Engines like Azamina and Fiendsmith would just make every deck that has the room for non-engine play through things just as powerful if not more powerfully than a Branded player that doesn't need the Nightmare lock because the player using Branded has a near perfect understanding of how to play Branded. On the surface Branded looks simple but because of the wide range of cards it can use that come from in and outside the its lore and the fact that you will have to play around board breakers, hand traps, and format repent outs such as D. Barrier it isn't as simple as it seems.
Yes, thank you.This is probably one of the best takes he's ever had. People often mistake most representation to t. Ier 0, and it's just not the same, they conflate them all the time, there's a lot of conflation that goes into you. But honestly, we have no 12 blame, but yourself, brother, you and all these other youtubers are the ones so quick to just say tier 0, and then these dummies follow you
I don't think that you can actually blame Josh. I could be wrong, but i do not think that he has ever called a deck tier 0 that did not have the representation to warrant it at a ycs or major event. He cannot control what other popular youtubers do. He is one of many. Sam has tier 0 in the title for any deck for clickbait. Mkohl40 keeps pushing that ryzeal is tier 0, galzo has at least once. Then there are people who think a deck that is the top deck in both formats must be tier 0 in both or just associate tier 0 with the most played deck in the format.
play rates realy mean nothing. what means something of value is conversion rate. if there is a format where people play 50 different decks equally but in top cut only 1 comes through despite not being represented insanely shows that there is something different with that deck but then also if almost all play 1 deck and every deck that isn't that deck gets to top cut that would give us some strong argument to how good that deck actually is
I think the thing is that Tier 0 decks usually feel overwhelmingly oppressive and inevitable. It feels like no matter how well you play your own deck it wont matter because the moment you give a Tier 0 deck one finger it will take your entire arm. Since PHNI released every Tier 1 deck has felt like that.
I think the most important difference between tier 0 decks is whether the deck is a combo or a control deck. Tear was good as both had an interesting grindgame, snake-eye was bad because the dice roll often decided the win. Still, i am very convinced that the very best format since i started playing competitively was after the ariseheart ban. You had a wide range of strong decks, most of them being interactive, therefor skillfull, and you could do alot in deckbuilding. Thank goodness, i dont have to care too much about that topic because i mostly play at locals and unless i win round 1 and 2, im kinda unlikely to meet the very top decks. And somehow i perform better against a mid yubelsmith player than against a great PK player
This is what I've been saying. Ryzeal could take up 80% of the pie chart but if you take time to read the cards, figure out the counters, and really make a fair judgement on whether its tier 0 or not you'll realize just how healthy a deck is. When a deck as healthy as Ryzeal is the best deck the only thing most people care about is representation and don't look at how many actually go to the top 8 from tournament to tournament. If Snake--Eyes was locked into link 3 and lower link monsters they might have had a strong floor and follow up but it would have kept it from using Apollousa and the Fiendsmith fusions and the Azamina engine. This would have made it a deck that might've needed to rely on engines such as the Adventure engine to negate cards like Nibiru but it would have kept it from combining it with engines that allow it to not lose against a lot of the cards Ryzeal is cooked by. I can't agree that decks that can make boards as strong as Snake-Eyes(without engines) can should just instantly die to cards like Nibiru but I feel that being outed by cards like Evenly Matched and Dark Ruler that require you to give up your ability to deal battle damage to out a board is acceptable because Dark Ruler though it does take away interaction from the opponent to some degree and it can put you in a winning position it and Evenly doesn't stop the opponent from taking the winning position again.
everyone is always complayning about the current format, mostly people who heared that from some clickbait youtube video, but if you think back there was way worse (firewall era, shockmaster era, ruler format, 2020, zoodiac format, tele dad, chaos... )
Do other card games have this issue though? Where a deck is represented consistently over 40%? And you can say that one deck is always the best deck? Not really a healthy way to go about formats tbh.
It's just the fact that it's almost always known by Konami which one will be the best deck. Why do you think the best deck and cards always have higher rarities?
Union Arena had an issue of JJK Sukuna being represented at EVERY TOURNAMENT after their first wave of support. So yes, other card games do have this problem.
The Kashtira meta was quite something-everyone enjoyed Shifter and his counterpart, Arise-Heart, along with the thrill of locking zones. We all had a great time! Total cope.
It was funny watching people in your chat call Ryzeal a "helmet deck" which to *me* is not at all what Ryzeal is. Like, Ryzeal is reminding me of Mathmech and maybe a bit of Zoodiac. Are those decks easy to play? Maybe, I would say probably. Are they "helmet decks"? No, a "helmet deck" to me is something like old-school Qliphort, or Inspect Boarder Stun, where you don't really have a "combo" at all, you just kinda summon a guy, flip over a trap that also is annoying for your opponent to deal with, and watch them squirm. Is Mathmech a deck like that? Well, maybe a little, but you can be interrupted during the combo, and even if you get your board setup you don't have a stunning effect unless you went ham and you're playing into other combos. Zoo *can* play a stun game, but most of the time when I saw it they were playing a control style game, or they were used to add value to other beast-warrior decks (example: Tri-brigade)
It's nice that Ryzeal doesn't do anything toxic (for the most part). They are just very consistent and very versatile. Kind of like sprights without toad.
Blows my mind readin ppl on his twitch chat saying "Snake-Eyes wasnt Tier 0". Probably this shit got wrote by some of its' player 100%. The only person who is dumb enough to defend Snake-Eyes has to be one of the one who plays with the deck.
Seen people act like snake eyes isnt tier 0 because they argue that snake eyes and snake eyes fire king are two different decks. They are literally the same deck but with minor differences on how the end board interact with you on your turn.
another reason raw numbers dont work to tell if something is tier zero as in, the only deck in the format you should be playing at a serious competitive level, is that formats usually dont get solved AND the process of solving them will almost always change what's considered playable once a lot of the decks that cant compete with the best deck(s) fall to the wayside. the way people play a game and meta evolves over time, just look at smash, DK is playable now lmao
Everyone wants to be in the in crowd. Tier 0 is Tear, full power zoo, spyral, snake eye as an engine, it's like 65%+. There are tier 1 decks that are very good! But just going "this tier 1 deck is better than your momma's tier 1 deck and that makes it tier 0" like no. Kashtira was insanely powerful and consistent but not tier 0. It was a tier 1 deck that just made other equally good decks harder to play into it if you weren't prepared.
Any deck that reaches T0 needs banning, 0 in this game meaning turn 0, if I lose by the time I draw a card or my entire board is locked there is no longer a playable game
Tier zero. When one deck or strategy is severely stronger than anything else. A common definition is 65%+ representation at the top of a tournament. This of course leaves out Dragon rulers, which released the same time as another tier zero deck.
Tcg players aren't miserable tho outside of trash ass casuals who thinks playing anything but blue eyes makes you "a meta sheep" YCS Niagara had a record attendance for Canadian YCS' not even 2 weeks ago
@@MajinVegito100 I actually like a lot of the points in the video Josh is reacting to. I watched it a couple days ago. But I have a BIG gripe with Yu-Gi-Oh players in general, we have a MAJOR problem with mob mentality. A lot of us take an opinion or frustration we hold, take 1 or 2 data points that support our opinion, while simultaneously ignoring any context surrounding those data points, and regurgitate them without thinking. Today it might be "meta bad" tomorrow it might be "TCG players miserable", but we do this shit all the time and it makes it feel like I can't talk to people who play the same game as I do as if they're reasonable humans a lot of the time and that's sad.
There is no number that makes something tier 0, but any deck that's under 50% topcut representation is absolutely not tier 0. The last tier 0 was tearlaments
YGO players vs. definition of tier 0 is always funny. I wonder if other card games have this problem where people often disagree on what makes a format in a state of tier 0 influence
Tier 0 is dogshit when the top deck is so powerful it pretty much always wins when it plays against its competitors. Like Tearlament format, even dedicated counters couldn't compete with it (Kashtira/Floo/Exosister). If a deck is like 40% of topcut, but is fun to play against, possible to counterpick, then that is perfectly fine. See Kashtira/Unchained format.
Getting angry on behalf of the OCG is very cringe, but I think it's a result of the way Konami manages these different formats. When someone complains about something in the OCG, they don't really care about the OCG; they're thinking about the future of the TCG since almost every time something happens in the OCG, it eventually happens for us
People in my opinion are right to complain about the manage of the thing, not hitting ryzel but hitting the entire meta around is a very strange way to low the power level only because you need to sell the new cards.
The banlist was implemented like 2 or so weeks after the release of ryzeal It would be unfair to hit a deck that new, atleast give it some time in the sunlight before hitting it
Ive played against ryzeal on a simulator and its actually a very cool deck with good interay. You would rather play into the ryzeal board instead of yubel fiendsmith
base on the definition of t0 this is not even t0. 65% is t0 40% is t1 and to be fair i quite enjoy fight again these 2 deck at the top(not really i don't like my shit got banish I just have to suck it up). in this day and age i like to have an interaction war against my opponent that did not involve omni-negate.
Some idiots are still calling raizol tier 0 like don’t even try to compare that shit to decks like tear , zoodiac, d link , spyrals it’s not even close 😭
You have literally changed my life. This past year has not been well for me. I lost my job, my wife, even my dearest hobby in the form of ygo, all because of diabellestar. But reading your inspiring words fills me with determination. It has light a spark in me. Life is never truly over unless you let it be over. There is a gigachad resting deep within all of us. He is simply waiting for us to awaken him. I will rise again. Obliterate anything everything that's not my friend. Nothing can stop me now. No ghost to bring me down. There's nothing left to lose. I win. I will become the littlest pogchamp the world has ever witnessed. My pp will be bigger than a very big pp. I will get better at finding comparisons. My favorite season is winter because I have already won. Thank you kind stranger.
Yugioh players are some of the biggest whinners. Not that there aren't any valid complaints but most of the community likes to just lash out at practically every update the game has.
@@slayerrazaro8174because it's a failure of balancing if there is objectively better decks at that level. the game is already incredibly derivative and basic compared to every esport. Dota 2 which is miles more complex and harder to play than yugioh (this is facts. happy to debate. you will lose) still has more heroes drafted every TI at around 90% compared to Yugioh where the are only 3-4 decks in the top being played which is a failure of the system.
@@verycalmgamer4090 but having 3 to 4 decks being at the top is actually healthy for a game meta is a constant no matter what game your playing can't stop it, there's no point in trying to stop it
Heavy disagree tearlaments was the worst format comapred to even snake eyes. The only interesting match was the mirror which was also just annoying needing to keep track of everything would rather deal with snake eyes full power the rest of yugiohs life than ever play that again.
Kashtira is one of the healthier decks we've had in years. Outside of the zone locking stuff, the deck wasn't that bad. If you're only argument for a deck being unhealthy is "iT pLaYs D sHiFtEr AnD tHeIr BoSs MoNsTeR bAnIsHeS tHe Gy" then that's not a good enough excuse.
If the deck has a high popularity and not that powerful and lose to some meta calls or decks then why these decks don't have the high popularity of those decks? P.S: Tear format was torture and there is no subjectivity in this matter.
Because passionate and competitive players almost always switch to the newest deck. Imagine this, a new deck was released and this deck has the same overall power level and ceiling with the previous meta but due to the itch to play new cards, the top players are almost always guaranteed to jump on the new deck. Due to the majority of top players playing this new deck, it then shoots up in the tierlist making an overrepresentation in the top cuts when in fact previous metas are still competitive enough to be played it's just that the actual top and skilled players are no longer playing them hence reducing it's representation.
@@Mark-tt8oo Another thing to note is that ryzeal can play through multiple handtraps AND is very user-friendly. That alone makes it more popular. Furthermore, it can play under fuworass easily. It is a good meta call
There are a ton of factors. other than what the other comments already said, another reason presented in the video is simply price and accessibility. If the decks that have good matchups against the most popular one are too expensive, it's simply smarter to just play the cheaper one, hence the high play rate. Also, sometimes, skill level. If the best deck is hard to play (like unchained), it won't become T0 even if it's stronger than everything else just because many people might not take the time to pick it up
Ryzeal has been only 2 months on OCG and asians are already crying, they look like TCG babies. TCG players saying Tier 0 since Snake Eyes, be ready to hear stupid people with Tier 53 decks complaining about this "tier 0" from day 1 and about the again "price of the meta decks"
@@VodinhVlogz am not talking about the video. I’ve seen many OCG players complaining about Ryzeal on social media, they say the deck is too strong even with indirect hits like bonfire to 1 and there was no way to hit them preemptively since most of the deck is staples. Others complain because Ryzeal and Maliss are the dominant decks without receive direct support.
Full uncut Reaction is up on this Channel
The most recent VOD (playing Ranked until Master 1), to be specific.
I wanna cut your reaction lol 😂 my fave yugituber
Tear mirror was the wildest experience in MD. Especially after they reduced the timer. It was so insane to be on Turn 0 (your opp went first) and your timer is warning you that it's under 30 seconds left because you've both been throwing around mega chain link after mega chain link
Tear format in md was awful
@@stretchxg Both subjective opinions. Personally I think Tear, though it was tier 0, was the best a tier 0 format could be. The mirror was fun and interactive. It didnt just depend on who won the die roll or who drew more handtraps, like SE. Son not awful imo. Not amazing, but not bad.
I loved playing Tear mirrors. It didn't matter who went first or second, and playing in the opponent's turn felt very interactive. Tear was just way ahead of it's time, If yugioh has a future, Tearlaments is the template Konami should follow.
@@jarom1144 i think md specifically made it worse, because of the timer
@@jarom1144 for md it sucked. especially at higher levels they do not give you enough time to think through things. nothing like db at all
Tier 1 is when a strategy is the 'best' thing you could be doing in a given format.
Tier 0 is when a strategy is the 'only' thing worth doing in a given format.
These are not the same.
This was very similar to when Chimera released and people thought it was such a good deck when it was merely popular for 1 month. Then Unchained was popular and the results shifted in it's favor until R-Ace was seen as the best deck and then Unchained fell off. All those decks were viable in a low power format and none were remotely dominant based on power level, it was just the players massively over representing the perceived strongest deck in the moment.
Reminder that orcust bad like 45% representation too, and I don't think anyone considers TOSS a tier 0 format
There is a reason why we refer to it as TOSS after all.
11:22 „Ok guys, but with all due respect, how are you not prepared for Kashtira at this point? It's a little ridiculous to not have a well thought out plan when entering a tournament.“
Best indicator of Tier 0 format is a "best deck" that also forces Josh to play it in big tournaments, even if it's not his favorite or he doesn't like playing it. Basically, a deck that's so overwhelmingly strong that Josh couldn't find any other options but to play it himself
The last deck that fit this criteria was Tear, obviously. But since then, we never see Josh play "best decks" like Kashtira or Snake-Eyes in any big event like YCS or Euros, so none of those were ever T0
Tier 0 = 65% = 2/3 of the pie chart. Its that simple. It has to be a super majority. Why are people calling tier 0 when its around 40%? That's just stupid.
Because 40 is the new 50, and 50 is close to 60, so might as well round it to 65.
I'd argue it needs to be 65% at multiple events around the same time
@@mattgibson9337I'd argue a consistent 65% or above representation over a period of at least a month
Why 65%? Why not simply 50%? Why not 66%, if you want to be 2/3? Why stop there, instead of requiring 75%?
@@LazurBeemz Because 65% is your bare minimum since there are tier zero formats where it even far surpasses that, Spyral format had over 90% reps and Zoo format had where the entire top 32 plays Zoo engine, 65% is really being generous.
Josh's editor had the ultimate chance to splice that clip of Josh messing up the Tenpai combo from his last vid at 10:28 in this one.
Tear, pepe,dragon rulers, teledad,dark synchro those were tier 0 with 70-85% representation
I don't know too much about past formats but wasn't spyral or zoodiac somewhere close to that at some point?
@eonflutehza131 Yup. Zoodiac even had 100% top 32 representation at a tournament once
I won’t lie it bugs me when a 35-40% breakdown is tier zero. It’s not. Tier 0 means 65% or more. Take like spyral and tear. The only deck I legit think deserved to be called tier 0 when it wasn’t was unchained. The deck had the ability to be completely unbeatable but is so complex we only ever made tier 1.
honestly for me T0 means if you dont bring that deck than dont bother to go anyway so t0 in my eyes should be atleast 90% not 65% aslong as other decks also win that means allready there is other playable decks. :D
Tear zero format also implies oppression over a decent amount of time. A deck getting a super high percentage for like two tournaments does not mean a tear 0 "format"
Tearlaments format was so impactful that it changed how people spell tier!
@@ScootaGray not necessarily. What if the deck was oppressive for 2 tournaments until a better deck was printed?
It was still tier 0
@@kelatoz2347I’d argue that’s just an under explored format
@@kelatoz2347 such a specific situation that hasn't happened to try and be argumentative. Weird comment tbh
Tearlaments was so strong people forgot how to spell "Tier"
Sam: damn they caught me
I think this is just a case of Sunny doubling down on his initial opinion, sure Reziel isn't as bad as other tier 1-0 decks, but it's still the most represented by a wide margin and it's way more telling this type of data in the ocg since the price entry is waaaay lower, unlike the tcg which is a wallet vs wallet format all the time.
The funny part is that OCG Maliss price is way higher then Ryzeal because both competency and artwork.
@@karozoronah146
Waifu tax is real
@karozoronah146 I'm so happy most yugioh retro cards aren't waifus, that makes them collecting them less painful.
@@Exiled28 It's pretty funny that there are zero TCG exclusive waifu decks, which is pretty telling where the demand comes from
Kash format was so easy to play. Blinding second with talents, thrust, kurikara.. free games
The eastern Yugioh scene is so different they have so much less room to complain. Rescue ace pre snake eyes was a near tier 0 deck for them, while we were zone locking with kash and ftking. We spend 6 months to a year and a half suffering the same decks while they spend barely 4-6 months. Not to to mention the rarity spread being a barrier to entry in literal casuals.
As much as tcg ppl constantly joking about ocg banlist,sometime they really hit the right card
Like hitting fenrir instead of arise heart
@@abdurachmanromzy4778I disagree looking at their banlist they hit way more than fenrir. Tcg hit the right card in ariseheart seeing as they have way less hits to the deck.
@@cuttlefish6839 while its true that not only fenrir that getting hit (unicorn also limited as well) at least it prove that ariseheart wasnt actual problem card from beginning (in kashtira case) as its never seen again anywhere since that banlist
@@cuttlefish6839 I won't call it right when people figured out that Kash cards are way stronger in strong decks than in pure Kash, pre fiendsmith Kash Snake Eyes got significant amount of tops in TCG, OCG Konami just sense it way earlier
@@cuttlefish6839 Fenrir is a VERY problematic card even BEFORE Ariseheart. Since he was EVERYWHERE and that meant a target was place on him ever since DABL Format.
Fenrir was the most logical hit for them at that moment, and then eventually after Ariseheart release Fenrir got the ban hammer since,
1. Fenrir was already on the Konami hit list.
2. Ariseheart was JUST release.
So hitting Fenrir, the one that made getting to Ariseheart easier has to go. (And also Unicorn too.)
As literacy declines, people latch on to phrases that best describe what they feel, rather than what’s accurate… and ygo players never read to begin with
Numbers mean nothing in a vacuum. All data needs to be read/understood by looking at the context its taken from.
Personally I think if a deck has over 50% representation and is winning almost every major event consistently (for example snake eye variants and tear winning every YCS they entered until their major banlist) is tier 0. This is because if it’s over 50% it means that 1 deck has more representation than every other deck in top cut combined, and if it’s winning the event it shows it isn’t just numbers but that it is in fact the only deck winning. It’s important that I think both should be true not just 1 or the other.
I think the argument of people using the word tier zero at lot you made is this video is very cherry picky because the deck people have been complaining about and calling tier zero (which while incorrect is kinda valid?) is a deck that’s also been consistently the best deck in the format for almost more than a year now
And what makes a deck the best? Is there a certain amount of ycs that it has to win or regionals? People don't know what to call it. Now that I think about it, I wonder where the 65 percent representation definition came from.
Tier 0 is when every single other deck needs to be strictly built to beat it, concedes every other match up (for the most part), and still doesn’t beat the tier 0 deck most the time. There’s been tier 0 formats where people just refused to play the deck. It was still tier 0 even if data didn’t represent it.
Example case for the latter, Spright POTE format in the OCG since looking back, Tearlaments is actually as strong in that format
On the topic of if defining tier 0 by numbers is right or not I would say one of the biggest issues is that realistically we just don't get enough of the right numbers to do so. Just taking overall entrance numbers and how they compare to top cut is likely to result in popularity being more important to how we rate power than it should be.
Ideally we would have full breakdowns not just for the win percentage of each deck but also how that compares going first or second and then having that information comparing each combination of decks against each other. As far as im aware we don't really have that level of detail available resulting in trying to form options based on a very narrow section of the full data set...
Everyone is gonna be all "yay Ryzeal" until they make Castel and thrust for Harpie's Feather Storm
That is so specific it won't even get to that half the time, unlike kash where the floodgates are built into the archetype and can go to them almost consistently.
What it should define a Tier 0 Deck is not just the representation but also adding to it the win rate, which I think is most important to determine a T0 Deck, so maybe Win Rate, Top representation and Matchup Chart should be the main things you should have to look for when you're saying a deck is T0
I disagree, is not about the data, is about correctly using the data. We don't always have the correct data, as what we need to be looking at is conversion rates rather than popularity, best decks usually gather both, but is not always the case.
Everyone loves to think that frog was this undiscovered deck in TSHD format, but we actually had a few regional tops and some one at dgz actually brought in the discussion of best deck and was laughed at.
Regardless, overrepresentation is indeed a problem regardless of power level alone. Ryzeal is now at 45% of top cuts as the sole tier 1 deck. Playing half of your games vs the same strategy tends to burn out casual players quickly; also, it could have been avoided. Ocg has this weird tendency of overhitting 6 month old stuff: yubel was a tier 3 deck before the last list and was destroyed, fiendsmith hits were overkill when just banning lacrima fusion was enough, etc.
Yacine seething from watching this video
About the point of the 8 decks that suck to play against: there are also the 8 decks that summon halq into linkross, or phoenix into mermaid, where there are "a lot of decks" but they all end on the same board except for one point of interaction.
The fact people still call these decks tier 0 really goes to show just how frustrated people are with the current meta.
the same 3 people enter events with plants
and the same 3 people convert to top cut
plants is tier 0 for 3 years now
I think board breaker formats tend to be the healthiest because cards like Dark Ruler and Evenly Matched don't instantly win you the game and while they do allow you to setup game winning boards they don't stop the opponent from taking back their winning position. Maybe with the release of the Mulcharmies it would be smart to finally ban Effect Veiler and Impermanence because it would weaken the pure hand trap builds to a acceptable degree by getting rid of the ones that don't suck if you draw 2 or 3 of them. I think this would be a acceptable change for the better because this makes going first significantly weaker and going 2nd significantly stronger but going first would still be better regardless of such potential changes.
I believe that we are in a golden age of Yu-Gi-Oh where board breakers are probably the best because going first almost any deck with a high enough ground can win and going 2nd you have board breakers plus Mulcharmies to help you get into them. Decisions such as playing Fenrir may come up more often for decks that have a lot of room for non-engine because of all of the extra room you get from maining or sideing a board breaker approach. Whether Fuwalos is here to stay or not just having Perulea and Nyalus alone would be enough in combination with side deck staples like Droll and Nibiru.
The caveat to making board breakers good by giving people the chance to have multiples of ones they can use more than once in their hand is that this makes mixing 3 or 4 small and explosive engines like Azamina and Fiendsmith easier to do meaning it'll be healthy in some ways and terrible in others. We have seen how board breaker formats can be bad for the game in formats where decks like Branded exist. Engines like Azamina and Fiendsmith would just make every deck that has the room for non-engine play through things just as powerful if not more powerfully than a Branded player that doesn't need the Nightmare lock because the player using Branded has a near perfect understanding of how to play Branded. On the surface Branded looks simple but because of the wide range of cards it can use that come from in and outside the its lore and the fact that you will have to play around board breakers, hand traps, and format repent outs such as D. Barrier it isn't as simple as it seems.
Yes, thank you.This is probably one of the best takes he's ever had. People often mistake most representation to t. Ier 0, and it's just not the same, they conflate them all the time, there's a lot of conflation that goes into you. But honestly, we have no 12 blame, but yourself, brother, you and all these other youtubers are the ones so quick to just say tier 0, and then these dummies follow you
I don't think that you can actually blame Josh. I could be wrong, but i do not think that he has ever called a deck tier 0 that did not have the representation to warrant it at a ycs or major event.
He cannot control what other popular youtubers do. He is one of many. Sam has tier 0 in the title for any deck for clickbait. Mkohl40 keeps pushing that ryzeal is tier 0, galzo has at least once.
Then there are people who think a deck that is the top deck in both formats must be tier 0 in both or just associate tier 0 with the most played deck in the format.
play rates realy mean nothing. what means something of value is conversion rate. if there is a format where people play 50 different decks equally but in top cut only 1 comes through despite not being represented insanely shows that there is something different with that deck but then also if almost all play 1 deck and every deck that isn't that deck gets to top cut that would give us some strong argument to how good that deck actually is
I think the thing is that Tier 0 decks usually feel overwhelmingly oppressive and inevitable. It feels like no matter how well you play your own deck it wont matter because the moment you give a Tier 0 deck one finger it will take your entire arm. Since PHNI released every Tier 1 deck has felt like that.
I think the most important difference between tier 0 decks is whether the deck is a combo or a control deck. Tear was good as both had an interesting grindgame, snake-eye was bad because the dice roll often decided the win.
Still, i am very convinced that the very best format since i started playing competitively was after the ariseheart ban. You had a wide range of strong decks, most of them being interactive, therefor skillfull, and you could do alot in deckbuilding.
Thank goodness, i dont have to care too much about that topic because i mostly play at locals and unless i win round 1 and 2, im kinda unlikely to meet the very top decks.
And somehow i perform better against a mid yubelsmith player than against a great PK player
This is what I've been saying. Ryzeal could take up 80% of the pie chart but if you take time to read the cards, figure out the counters, and really make a fair judgement on whether its tier 0 or not you'll realize just how healthy a deck is. When a deck as healthy as Ryzeal is the best deck the only thing most people care about is representation and don't look at how many actually go to the top 8 from tournament to tournament.
If Snake--Eyes was locked into link 3 and lower link monsters they might have had a strong floor and follow up but it would have kept it from using Apollousa and the Fiendsmith fusions and the Azamina engine. This would have made it a deck that might've needed to rely on engines such as the Adventure engine to negate cards like Nibiru but it would have kept it from combining it with engines that allow it to not lose against a lot of the cards Ryzeal is cooked by. I can't agree that decks that can make boards as strong as Snake-Eyes(without engines) can should just instantly die to cards like Nibiru but I feel that being outed by cards like Evenly Matched and Dark Ruler that require you to give up your ability to deal battle damage to out a board is acceptable because Dark Ruler though it does take away interaction from the opponent to some degree and it can put you in a winning position it and Evenly doesn't stop the opponent from taking the winning position again.
To add to your point.
Playing a deck like HERO felt very fun in kash format because you just had to draw a book or imperm, and you played 9
I think Sunny summarized discussion points well.
everyone is always complayning about the current format, mostly people who heared that from some clickbait youtube video, but if you think back there was way worse (firewall era, shockmaster era, ruler format, 2020, zoodiac format, tele dad, chaos... )
Bring back shock-master, yata-lock, hand control, and gem-knight ftk for exactly half of a format. They will learn
Maybe true king of all calamities as well
Do other card games have this issue though? Where a deck is represented consistently over 40%? And you can say that one deck is always the best deck? Not really a healthy way to go about formats tbh.
One piece at the time Law RP didn't have an errata, OP2 when Whitebeard was released, there are other examples in Digimon too
It's very common yeah.
It's just the fact that it's almost always known by Konami which one will be the best deck. Why do you think the best deck and cards always have higher rarities?
Union Arena had an issue of JJK Sukuna being represented at EVERY TOURNAMENT after their first wave of support.
So yes, other card games do have this problem.
The Kashtira meta was quite something-everyone enjoyed Shifter and his counterpart, Arise-Heart, along with the thrill of locking zones. We all had a great time! Total cope.
It was funny watching people in your chat call Ryzeal a "helmet deck" which to *me* is not at all what Ryzeal is. Like, Ryzeal is reminding me of Mathmech and maybe a bit of Zoodiac. Are those decks easy to play? Maybe, I would say probably. Are they "helmet decks"? No, a "helmet deck" to me is something like old-school Qliphort, or Inspect Boarder Stun, where you don't really have a "combo" at all, you just kinda summon a guy, flip over a trap that also is annoying for your opponent to deal with, and watch them squirm. Is Mathmech a deck like that? Well, maybe a little, but you can be interrupted during the combo, and even if you get your board setup you don't have a stunning effect unless you went ham and you're playing into other combos. Zoo *can* play a stun game, but most of the time when I saw it they were playing a control style game, or they were used to add value to other beast-warrior decks (example: Tri-brigade)
It's nice that Ryzeal doesn't do anything toxic (for the most part). They are just very consistent and very versatile. Kind of like sprights without toad.
Blows my mind readin ppl on his twitch chat saying "Snake-Eyes wasnt Tier 0". Probably this shit got wrote by some of its' player 100%. The only person who is dumb enough to defend Snake-Eyes has to be one of the one who plays with the deck.
Seen people act like snake eyes isnt tier 0 because they argue that snake eyes and snake eyes fire king are two different decks. They are literally the same deck but with minor differences on how the end board interact with you on your turn.
Ryzeal also can't Scythe lock in TCG
some people don't exactly know what "tier zero" means. strong =/= over powered
another reason raw numbers dont work to tell if something is tier zero as in, the only deck in the format you should be playing at a serious competitive level, is that formats usually dont get solved AND the process of solving them will almost always change what's considered playable once a lot of the decks that cant compete with the best deck(s) fall to the wayside. the way people play a game and meta evolves over time, just look at smash, DK is playable now lmao
Yeah but stuff like that was discovered yeeeears later, and unfortunately people won't want to revisit most formats
Everyone wants to be in the in crowd. Tier 0 is Tear, full power zoo, spyral, snake eye as an engine, it's like 65%+. There are tier 1 decks that are very good! But just going "this tier 1 deck is better than your momma's tier 1 deck and that makes it tier 0" like no. Kashtira was insanely powerful and consistent but not tier 0. It was a tier 1 deck that just made other equally good decks harder to play into it if you weren't prepared.
Any deck that reaches T0 needs banning, 0 in this game meaning turn 0, if I lose by the time I draw a card or my entire board is locked there is no longer a playable game
Tier zero. When one deck or strategy is severely stronger than anything else. A common definition is 65%+ representation at the top of a tournament. This of course leaves out Dragon rulers, which released the same time as another tier zero deck.
lol tcg players swear everyone is as miserable as they are
Has nothing to do with TCG.
People just like bitching.
Tcg players aren't miserable tho outside of trash ass casuals who thinks playing anything but blue eyes makes you "a meta sheep"
YCS Niagara had a record attendance for Canadian YCS' not even 2 weeks ago
@@MajinVegito100 I actually like a lot of the points in the video Josh is reacting to. I watched it a couple days ago.
But I have a BIG gripe with Yu-Gi-Oh players in general, we have a MAJOR problem with mob mentality.
A lot of us take an opinion or frustration we hold, take 1 or 2 data points that support our opinion, while simultaneously ignoring any context surrounding those data points, and regurgitate them without thinking.
Today it might be "meta bad" tomorrow it might be "TCG players miserable", but we do this shit all the time and it makes it feel like I can't talk to people who play the same game as I do as if they're reasonable humans a lot of the time and that's sad.
@@pptemplar5840 tcg players seem top do most of the bitching
@@alexYu-gi-oh what I mean is that the tcg players who bitch about “tier 0 formats“ assume everyone hates the game they supposedly like.
There is no number that makes something tier 0, but any deck that's under 50% topcut representation is absolutely not tier 0. The last tier 0 was tearlaments
YGO players vs. definition of tier 0 is always funny. I wonder if other card games have this problem where people often disagree on what makes a format in a state of tier 0 influence
Tier 0 is dogshit when the top deck is so powerful it pretty much always wins when it plays against its competitors. Like Tearlament format, even dedicated counters couldn't compete with it (Kashtira/Floo/Exosister).
If a deck is like 40% of topcut, but is fun to play against, possible to counterpick, then that is perfectly fine. See Kashtira/Unchained format.
Tsuchinoko, Thunderbird, Jackalope.
I am so tired of TCG players getting angry for us OCG players.
Bruh, if you have that lens on literally everything in life Will suck for you. Imagine watching Elections in that frame of mind....
No matter what format we’re in, I will never be able to afford it 😢
Getting angry on behalf of the OCG is very cringe, but I think it's a result of the way Konami manages these different formats. When someone complains about something in the OCG, they don't really care about the OCG; they're thinking about the future of the TCG since almost every time something happens in the OCG, it eventually happens for us
Tier 0 is tearlaments at YCS Pasadena Nov 6 2022
Tsx1 after watching this video: "goddamn!"
People in my opinion are right to complain about the manage of the thing, not hitting ryzel but hitting the entire meta around is a very strange way to low the power level only because you need to sell the new cards.
The banlist was implemented like 2 or so weeks after the release of ryzeal
It would be unfair to hit a deck that new, atleast give it some time in the sunlight before hitting it
Numbers never lie. Just ask DBZ.
If the shoe fits…
Not team Sam making "tier zero blue eyes"
Ive played against ryzeal on a simulator and its actually a very cool deck with good interay. You would rather play into the ryzeal board instead of yubel fiendsmith
I am not mad i am just not motivated to play since the next top deck is also 20 handtraps small engine 1 card combo deck
base on the definition of t0
this is not even t0. 65% is t0 40% is t1
and to be fair i quite enjoy fight again these 2 deck at the top(not really i don't like my shit got banish I just have to suck it up).
in this day and age i like to have an interaction war against my opponent that did not involve omni-negate.
What is Ryzeol good at?
Tier 0 is objectively bad
Some idiots are still calling raizol tier 0 like don’t even try to compare that shit to decks like tear , zoodiac, d link , spyrals it’s not even close 😭
23:49 I second that question: what is destiny Branded?
Branded with Verte/Keeper of Dragon Magic for Fusion Destiny
@@ShinerCCC Aha, thanks.
>fun to play against
>decklist shown is on like 12 engine with the rest being HT
>looks like yet another go fish format to me
For me It's a tier 0 if that deck is like Yugi deck
fortnite
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i should react to this
Well this Is a tier 0 opinion 😬👌
the only acutal tier 0 deck is/was tearlament ishizu
Ocg banlist let's raiziel deck win ? Isn't everything hit ?
I only know 1 tear 0
Dino🦖 tier 0
I blame Sam for this due to his "NEW TIER ZERO BLUE EYES DECK PROFILE" videos that destroyed the actual meaning of tier zero.
Robbie is adding fuel to the fire with his tier 0 videos for ryzeal, and I think galzo has one
@chewdoom8415 critical thinking is dead in yugioh. Every good deck is tier zero now.
So glad that someone in his chat caught how his "diversity" comment can be clipped out of context
Yugioh players are some of the biggest whinners. Not that there aren't any valid complaints but most of the community likes to just lash out at practically every update the game has.
On god like I don't understand why they can't grasp there's gonna be a best deck or decks in a format
@@slayerrazaro8174because it's a failure of balancing if there is objectively better decks at that level. the game is already incredibly derivative and basic compared to every esport. Dota 2 which is miles more complex and harder to play than yugioh (this is facts. happy to debate. you will lose) still has more heroes drafted every TI at around 90% compared to Yugioh where the are only 3-4 decks in the top being played which is a failure of the system.
@@verycalmgamer4090 but having 3 to 4 decks being at the top is actually healthy for a game meta is a constant no matter what game your playing can't stop it, there's no point in trying to stop it
Bro 40% yubel clickbait i gonna report you lol
Heavy disagree tearlaments was the worst format comapred to even snake eyes. The only interesting match was the mirror which was also just annoying needing to keep track of everything would rather deal with snake eyes full power the rest of yugiohs life than ever play that again.
Kashtira is one of the healthier decks we've had in years. Outside of the zone locking stuff, the deck wasn't that bad. If you're only argument for a deck being unhealthy is "iT pLaYs D sHiFtEr AnD tHeIr BoSs MoNsTeR bAnIsHeS tHe Gy" then that's not a good enough excuse.
Yugioh players have Stockholm so bad. One deck being 40% or more of the field is never healthy.
Ok now watch the video with your screen turned on and your headphones plugged
Malice sucks!
"Certain" UA-camrs bank off of doomer mentality. There hasn't been a tier 0 format since MAMA.
Memento so based
How he starts the video is exactly the proof most are just followers
Ocg is in a tier 0 format it's called a Maxx c format and it has been going for years now.
If the deck has a high popularity and not that powerful and lose to some meta calls or decks then why these decks don't have the high popularity of those decks?
P.S: Tear format was torture and there is no subjectivity in this matter.
Because passionate and competitive players almost always switch to the newest deck. Imagine this, a new deck was released and this deck has the same overall power level and ceiling with the previous meta but due to the itch to play new cards, the top players are almost always guaranteed to jump on the new deck. Due to the majority of top players playing this new deck, it then shoots up in the tierlist making an overrepresentation in the top cuts when in fact previous metas are still competitive enough to be played it's just that the actual top and skilled players are no longer playing them hence reducing it's representation.
@@Mark-tt8oo Another thing to note is that ryzeal can play through multiple handtraps AND is very user-friendly. That alone makes it more popular. Furthermore, it can play under fuworass easily. It is a good meta call
There are a ton of factors. other than what the other comments already said, another reason presented in the video is simply price and accessibility. If the decks that have good matchups against the most popular one are too expensive, it's simply smarter to just play the cheaper one, hence the high play rate. Also, sometimes, skill level. If the best deck is hard to play (like unchained), it won't become T0 even if it's stronger than everything else just because many people might not take the time to pick it up
Do not believe anything from this video, keep looking at the data, data is life, data is good :)
Adam Riese agrees. Numbers dont lie
You don't know how to interpret data
If players call everything tier zero, the term losses it's meaning. You might not agree with the definition, but at least don't misuse the term.
Ryzeal has been only 2 months on OCG and asians are already crying, they look like TCG babies. TCG players saying Tier 0 since Snake Eyes, be ready to hear stupid people with Tier 53 decks complaining about this "tier 0" from day 1 and about the again "price of the meta decks"
which asians were crying? did you even watch the video or listen?
@@VodinhVlogz am not talking about the video. I’ve seen many OCG players complaining about Ryzeal on social media, they say the deck is too strong even with indirect hits like bonfire to 1 and there was no way to hit them preemptively since most of the deck is staples. Others complain because Ryzeal and Maliss are the dominant decks without receive direct support.
A pro in Dota would climb to the top of this game in a week lowkey with full access to top decks. The competition in this game is a joke
vesper girsu. secret tech card. enjoy. xD
Yall need to stop overintellectualising this card game. League of legends is miles more complex than Yugioh and i hate league