Superb video. Answered some questions I had concerning Numeror's and the Faithful population numbers in middle earth before the downfall. Now the logistical and military capabilities of Arnor and Gondor before the Last Alliance are better explained.
Some future video ideas: the Vanyar: the Teleri split many times in the journey, scattered across Middle Earth, while the Noldor who started the journey all made it to Valinor, but then many went into exile. But the third kindred of the Elves, the ones closest to Manwe and the Valar, are the golden-haired Vanyar. And I could hardly learn anything about them in the Silmarillion, besides that the only time they seem to have interacted with Middle Earth was during the War of Wrath. We know they are mostly golden-haired, and I heard somewhere they focus on poetry (instead of the ships of the Teleri, or crafting of the Noldor) and that their weapon of choice is the spear. But it's hard to find much more. And they are the kindred that the Valar's actions actually worked for, they are the role-model, the ones who stay true. How do they spend the eons in Valinor? Idriil is 3/4 Vanyar even if she's counted among the Noldor, but she seems the closest we ever get to having a character among the Vanyar. I hope you get to explore them more. the Avari: I read somewhere that they were about 1/3 of the Teleri and 1/2 of the Noldor who never decided to start the journey. But where else do they spring up? What is their fate? Especially since it's hinted/implied that the Valar made a mistake to try to bring the Elves to Valinor, that means the Avari are what the Elves were meant to be. The closest we seem to get is the Elves of Mirkwood and Lothlorien, though it seems they are actually just Teleri who left the journey, not true Avari. What is known about them? Did they interact with early Men, or the Blue Wizards, did they have their own wars against Sauron? the Maiar: we know about the Istari, and a lot is also shared about Melian, and of course Sauron and the Balrogs. But what more information exists about the other Maiar, like Uinen and Osse, and the Maiar of the Sun and Moon, and more? Did Tolkien ever hint how many there are? Is Goldberry a Maiar? Ungoliant? I also heard the Maiar, and some Valar, were originally the children of the Valar in the old drafts? the lesser Valar: more information on "lesser Valar" like Nessa, Vana, Lorien/Irmo, etc. would be interesting to learn more about too. Dior Eluchil and his wife Nimloth are such a blank slate, when they (especially Dior) should be some of the most interesting characters. The son of the resurrected Beren and Luthien! The father of Elwing, heir of Thingol and Melian, holder of the Silmaril! Defender and King of Doriath, killed almost half the sons of Feanor. Yet we don't even know what kindred he is counted among. At first being the king of Doriath and father of Elwing makes us think he's probably Elf, but both his parents were mortal his entire life, and Thingol did come around to favor humans with how he treated Turin (and Beren after his adventure) so there'd be precedent. Dior is killed young, but it's also within a mortal's lifetime. And it does make Elwing Half-Elven if her father is mortal and her mother is Elf (and Nimloth seems distantly related to Thingol and Celeborn?). I really hope there's more here. the fates of Tuor and Amandil... both sailed to the west, but nothing is ever heard of them again. the other lands: we sometimes hear of Rhun, Harad, Khand, Umbar, and Forodwaith. But looking at the Atlas of Middle Earth, based on Tolkien's notes apparently, there's a lot more. It is called "Middle" Earth. We know of the west, Valinor. But what of the other distant lands? I read once that most of the Maiar inhabited the Lands of the Sun, a Maiar civilization ruled by the Sun Maiar when she rested in one of the older drafts, as an eastern Valinor that was mostly empty of other living things until the Men of Numenor came, but couldn't find that reference again. There's also the homelands of Elves and Men, wherever the Avari are and the eastern Dwarves (such as those of the Red Mountains). Is there more information? later writings of Tolkien: where he speculated on the origins and nature of Orcs, and started to redo the origin story more heliocentric with a round world from the beginning. That's all I know, and I hope there's more. Also other lost writings like Galadriel's brother who fell in love with a mortal woman but they were never joined, and Finrod's conversation with her on the nature of Eru Illuvatar.
Wow quite a few things I had no idea about. Makes sense that the druedain would get to go to numenor since they fought against Morgoth but I never thought about it
If there anything in the legendarium to suggest that the Numenoreans ever reached the east coast of middle earth and colonized in Rhun? The kingsmen’s colonization of Harad really sheds light on why the haradrim fell in with sauron. I always wondered if a similar explanation could be given for why the Easterlings were so hostile to the men of the west.
The Numemoreans ro whom the land was given appreciated and cared for it because they had earned it. Those who came generations later saw it as their right and so regarded it far less. Tolkien understood this as a failing of mankind.
This explains why the Realms in Exile, founded by only _nine_ ships, became so powerful so quickly. Numenoreans were already settled in great numbers in settlements in Middle Earth, and ruled many more people who were native to Middle Earth. So Arnor and Gondor were ready-made kingdoms that only needed strong leadership to be effective. And Gil-galad's power had grown so great in Sauron's 60 years of absence that his dominion had expanded from Lindon all the way across Eriador to the Vales of Anduin. Good world-building by Tolkien, I must say. So Sauron did not face an easy task in reestablishing himself in Middle Earth after he destroyed Numenor. Sucker!
I see Numenor more as the great ancient civilization that everyone else aspires to recreate, kind of like our Roman Empire, that split into two halves, one of which quickly collapsed (Western Empire) while the other, though weakened, survived for centuries and protected the lands to its west, much like our Byzantine Empire did.
Excellent video! I've thought for a while that most of the Faithful had to have already moved to Middle-Earth before the Fall of Númenór. It's also interesting how corrupt Númenór had become by the time the late 2nd Age rolled around. I don't think Sauron had to work really hard to complete their corruption. Here's a couple of video ideas How might have things turned out if the Númenóreans chose to attack the elves in Middle-Earth instead of invading Valinor? I think one of the consequences would have been an open civil war between the King's Men and the Faithful, who would side with the elves. A history of the different groups of men, not including Númenóreans. It would be fascinating to know what became of the Edain who didn't go to Númenór and where they ended up and other, the origins of the various groups of Easterlings, and the Northmen and other groups of Middle Men.
I've wondered that many times about if numenor declared me belonged to them and declared war on the men and elves of Lindon imladris, mirkwood and lothlorien
I would love to do more videos on the Edain, and I did actually do a video on the Northmen. As for your hypothetical scenario, it would've been a bloody war, but Numenor (the King's Men) would've been victorious. They had the larger army, naval supremacy, and their arms and abilities would've been on par with the Elves.
@@DarthGandalfYT Would be interesting to do a hypothetical scenario for that war death since the nobody else has done that. Please have a think about it 😊😉👍 Only kingdom of men I can think of during that time was rhovanian. Dwarves would hunker in their halls. Lindon did have Gil galad, Elrond, galadriel, celeborn, Cirdan, glorfindel? But the greenwood and lorien were ruled by oropher and amdir respectively...
It was new information published in the Nature of Middle-earth. It was very exciting stuff for someone like myself who loves the demographics side of worldbuilding.
Amazing video dude, I think that 200 k number is way to big for a people like the edain, Even if there were some men of Eriador among the firts people who settled in the island. Talking about the edain, it would be cool to see a video of what we know of the edain of Beleriand
I do agree that the number seems too large, but it's the number Tolkien gave in Nature of Middle-earth. The original number that appeared in Peoples of Middle-earth was 10,000, but Tolkien later clarified that it was 10,000 people in the first fleet that arrived. Edit - I should probably add that Tolkien's description of the population of the Edain was always a bit wacky. When the Beorians entered Beleriand they numbered less than 5,000, the Haladin numbered a little more than that, and the Hadorians numbered ~15,000. How that number grew into the hundreds of thousands with all the warfare occurring is a little strange.
@@DarthGandalfYT if I remember correctly the migration took place for 50 years, some 100k seems more likely, considering that Tolkien re wrore everything, it's hard to consider even the last stuff he wrote as canon
Religious traditionalists settle the north, while a royalist slave owning faction settles the south, and they become rivals? Maybe Tolkien was not as anti-American as he seemed.
What about the small group of Easterlings who remained faithful to the League of Maedhros and fought against Morgoth? Did they travel to Numenor together with the survivors of the other houses of Edain?
Unfortunately, there isn't any evidence to suggest they went to Numenor. The most common theory is that they were wiped out or absorbed into other Easterling groups. However, Tolkien did mention that some of the Men in northern Eriador were related to the Easterlings of Bor - whether they were survivors who fled back east or a different group that never crossed into Beleriand is unknown.
always wanted to know bro, thanks great lore video :) you have to explain now the Edain that stayed in ME when Numenor was founded! Where they were what have they been doing... already asked u x) keep it up, cheers!
Like with all empire’s their colonisation efforts bring both good and evil in its wake to those it conquers and colonised. With same being true for Numenor, though on balance, due to how key they and their successor kingdoms were to defeating Sauron, did more good than bad.
I am fully aware of Tolkien's distaste for allegory, but I can't help but notice similarities and parallels with the Númenorean colonization of Middle-earth and the European colonization of the World and the great and terrible European colonial empires. I even see the Faithful as the Europeans who didn't agree with the colonial practices of their counterparts. If you think that the Faithful followed the morals of Eru and the Valar, it is understandable that they did not agree with the oppressive practices of a colonial empire, just as the morals of Christianity do not support these practices either.
It was likely very much influenced by Tolkien's personal beliefs. In one of his letters, he spoke about how he despised American and British imperialism, and in another letter, he described how much he loved England, but was completely indifferent towards the rest of the British Empire.
I like to think he wrote about ice age history to the best of his linguistic hypothization. The kingsmen were the men of Atlas, while the faithful were the druids. Alqualonde was his version of the city of atlantis, and lake evendim was silverpit lake, the middle earth homeland of the dunedain/danann. He did not write allegories, because he made an actual, honest to truth, attempt at ancient history - rooted in linguistics and myth.
I think that you are overrating the morality of the Faithful. If the Faithful remained north of the Anduin, then it was and is they who oppressed the Dunlendings. Moreover, the excuse that the Numenorean "Civilization", compared to the Dunlending "lacking" such "Civilization" is simply the repetition of the regular excuses/justifications used by Western Imperial powers for their oppression of the Whole World (not simply the Americas)..
@@michaelodonnell824 I never thought or believed that the Faithful and their descendants, the Men of Arnor and Gondor, were holy or perfect, they were Men still and also prone to mistakes, just as their forefathers, the Númenóreans, who were consider "morally higher" and "civilized" than other peoples and fell into tyranny and disgrace, more than anyone among the race of Men. It is said that even the Valar made mistakes on certain occasions, including the creation of Númenor itself, as a gift to the Edain, there are great videos that deal with this subject, including one on The Red Book channel, I just don't remember now exactly which one. Nothing is completely perfect in Tolkien's world (reflection of ours, I believe), only Eru... As Tolkien referred to Sauron and the Ainur, from a Wikipedia excerpt: "Tolkien noted that the Ainur, the 'angelic' powers of his constructed myth, 'were capable of many degrees of error and failing', but by far the worst was 'the absolute Satanic rebellion and evil of Morgoth and his satellite Sauron'." "Tolkien stated in his Letters that although he did not think 'Absolute Evil' could exist as it would be 'Zero', 'in my story Sauron represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible.'" I also think this applies to the forces of good as well, everything in Arda and in Eä is, to some extent, tainted by Melkor's original dissonance in the Ainulindalë and his later corruptions of the World, the difference is the amount, some beings like the Valar can be (paraphrasing Tolkien in relation to Sauron if I may): "represented as near an approach to the wholly good will as is possible". But if even the Valar could made mistakes, I don't think the greatest and most advanced civilizations of Men in Middle-earth (Arnor and Gondor) were immune to mistakes as well... The Númenóreans were the closest, morally speaking, to a "perfect" human civilization that could be reached (not an utopia of course, because that would be impossible, as the name implies), even receiving blessings of mind and body from the Valar themselves, and even they fell from grace... I don't think the Faithful were immune to these deleterious effects of the corruption of Morgoth into Mankind, but they apparently remained more loyal to the teachings of Eru and the Valar than their countrymen who fell into corruption, I believe they sought to stay closer to the Númenor "before the shadow" as was humanly possible. Arnor and Gondor weren't perfect, they must have been wonderful kingdoms to live in, especially in their Golden Age, but then again, an Utopia is something impossible to achieve (except perhaps Valinor and even there, there were problems among the Noldor), Arnor split because of a feud between heirs, Gondor had a disastrous civil war spawned by ethnic strife which led to Castamir the Usurper, who I see as nothing more than a petty tyrant who helped to ruin the Kingdom. I see Gondor as, as close to a perfect civilization as humanly possible, what Mankind should strive for and try to be, they made mistakes like any human being would make, since there are no perfect humans, but I have clues that indicate that Gondor was a "good kingdom", the overwhelming majority of its kings were not tyrants, because they were not above the law, like in an Absolute monarchy, the Kingdom only fought in defensive wars, it only expanded to safeguard its borders, as Rome did in the beginning of its expansion, true, but unlike Rome, Gondor took no slaves and did not seek to expand further across Middle-earth in an imperialist frenzy, in its zenith under Hyarmendacil until the Kinstrife, for example, when it might well have done so, unopposed, and attempted diplomacy even with their most terrible enemies, the Black Númenóreans, through the marriage of Tarannon Falastur to Berúthiel, a strategy that unfortunately failed and war resumed. I believe these are clues that, at least in large part, they learned from the mistakes of late Númenor, which led to its downfall.
If Numenor had a population of 15,000,000 by 3319 S.A then it's no wonder Sauron's forces abandoned him! Sauron properly didn't control 900,000 by the War of the Ring, but Ar-Pharazon could easily have had an army of 4,000,000 when he arrived in Umbar! Also, if Tar-Palantir had given up his rule a few years before his death Ar-Pharazon likely would not have been able to have become King of Numenor and Numenor would have remained Faithful and would not have been destroyed!
All nazgul are Númenórean, not only 3. Tolkien, in one of his letters says: "There were evil Númenóreans: Sauronians, but they do not come into this story, except remotely; as the wicked Kings who had become Nazgûl or Ringwraiths. " Faramir, in The Two Towers, also confirm their origin: “It is said that their lords were men of Numenor who had fallen into dark wickedness; to them the Enemy had given rings of power, and he had devoured them: living ghosts they were become, terrible and evil. Nine Lords there were, and after the return of their Master, which they aided and prepared in secret, they grew strong again.”
Superb video. Answered some questions I had concerning Numeror's and the Faithful population numbers in middle earth before the downfall. Now the logistical and military capabilities of Arnor and Gondor before the Last Alliance are better explained.
I remember Michael
Morales once doing a essay on it
Some future video ideas:
the Vanyar: the Teleri split many times in the journey, scattered across Middle Earth, while the Noldor who started the journey all made it to Valinor, but then many went into exile. But the third kindred of the Elves, the ones closest to Manwe and the Valar, are the golden-haired Vanyar. And I could hardly learn anything about them in the Silmarillion, besides that the only time they seem to have interacted with Middle Earth was during the War of Wrath. We know they are mostly golden-haired, and I heard somewhere they focus on poetry (instead of the ships of the Teleri, or crafting of the Noldor) and that their weapon of choice is the spear. But it's hard to find much more. And they are the kindred that the Valar's actions actually worked for, they are the role-model, the ones who stay true. How do they spend the eons in Valinor? Idriil is 3/4 Vanyar even if she's counted among the Noldor, but she seems the closest we ever get to having a character among the Vanyar. I hope you get to explore them more.
the Avari: I read somewhere that they were about 1/3 of the Teleri and 1/2 of the Noldor who never decided to start the journey. But where else do they spring up? What is their fate? Especially since it's hinted/implied that the Valar made a mistake to try to bring the Elves to Valinor, that means the Avari are what the Elves were meant to be. The closest we seem to get is the Elves of Mirkwood and Lothlorien, though it seems they are actually just Teleri who left the journey, not true Avari. What is known about them? Did they interact with early Men, or the Blue Wizards, did they have their own wars against Sauron?
the Maiar: we know about the Istari, and a lot is also shared about Melian, and of course Sauron and the Balrogs. But what more information exists about the other Maiar, like Uinen and Osse, and the Maiar of the Sun and Moon, and more? Did Tolkien ever hint how many there are? Is Goldberry a Maiar? Ungoliant? I also heard the Maiar, and some Valar, were originally the children of the Valar in the old drafts?
the lesser Valar: more information on "lesser Valar" like Nessa, Vana, Lorien/Irmo, etc. would be interesting to learn more about too.
Dior Eluchil and his wife Nimloth are such a blank slate, when they (especially Dior) should be some of the most interesting characters. The son of the resurrected Beren and Luthien! The father of Elwing, heir of Thingol and Melian, holder of the Silmaril! Defender and King of Doriath, killed almost half the sons of Feanor. Yet we don't even know what kindred he is counted among. At first being the king of Doriath and father of Elwing makes us think he's probably Elf, but both his parents were mortal his entire life, and Thingol did come around to favor humans with how he treated Turin (and Beren after his adventure) so there'd be precedent. Dior is killed young, but it's also within a mortal's lifetime. And it does make Elwing Half-Elven if her father is mortal and her mother is Elf (and Nimloth seems distantly related to Thingol and Celeborn?). I really hope there's more here.
the fates of Tuor and Amandil... both sailed to the west, but nothing is ever heard of them again.
the other lands: we sometimes hear of Rhun, Harad, Khand, Umbar, and Forodwaith. But looking at the Atlas of Middle Earth, based on Tolkien's notes apparently, there's a lot more. It is called "Middle" Earth. We know of the west, Valinor. But what of the other distant lands? I read once that most of the Maiar inhabited the Lands of the Sun, a Maiar civilization ruled by the Sun Maiar when she rested in one of the older drafts, as an eastern Valinor that was mostly empty of other living things until the Men of Numenor came, but couldn't find that reference again. There's also the homelands of Elves and Men, wherever the Avari are and the eastern Dwarves (such as those of the Red Mountains). Is there more information?
later writings of Tolkien: where he speculated on the origins and nature of Orcs, and started to redo the origin story more heliocentric with a round world from the beginning. That's all I know, and I hope there's more. Also other lost writings like Galadriel's brother who fell in love with a mortal woman but they were never joined, and Finrod's conversation with her on the nature of Eru Illuvatar.
Perhaps an episode about the Hillmen nations of Angmar and Rhudaur.
It could even fit Misteries series.
I think its been covered. Right?
@@janvijaysingh2692 what? No
Man U have absolutely great topics!!! Love ur vids
Wow quite a few things I had no idea about. Makes sense that the druedain would get to go to numenor since they fought against Morgoth but I never thought about it
If there anything in the legendarium to suggest that the Numenoreans ever reached the east coast of middle earth and colonized in Rhun? The kingsmen’s colonization of Harad really sheds light on why the haradrim fell in with sauron. I always wondered if a similar explanation could be given for why the Easterlings were so hostile to the men of the west.
The Numenoreans did make it to the Inner Sea so they would've seen the coastline of Rhun, but we're never given any indication that they colonised it.
Wouldn't it be wild if the Witch King of Angmar, as an important Numenorial lord or royal, had some of Elrond's half-elven blood in him?
I'd say it's actually fairly likely that the Witch-king was a descendant of Elros, making him related to Elrond.
Man you always find new ways to summarize things.
You're incredible!
This is the video we all wanted to see.
Those to whom much is given become resentful & ungrateful sooner or later. We see this in our present time.
The Numemoreans ro whom the land was given appreciated and cared for it because they had earned it. Those who came generations later saw it as their right and so regarded it far less. Tolkien understood this as a failing of mankind.
I always wondered how far east and south have Numenoreans sailed..
This explains why the Realms in Exile, founded by only _nine_ ships, became so powerful so quickly. Numenoreans were already settled in great numbers in settlements in Middle Earth, and ruled many more people who were native to Middle Earth. So Arnor and Gondor were ready-made kingdoms that only needed strong leadership to be effective.
And Gil-galad's power had grown so great in Sauron's 60 years of absence that his dominion had expanded from Lindon all the way across Eriador to the Vales of Anduin.
Good world-building by Tolkien, I must say.
So Sauron did not face an easy task in reestablishing himself in Middle Earth after he destroyed Numenor. Sucker!
I see Numenor more as the great ancient civilization that everyone else aspires to recreate, kind of like our Roman Empire, that split into two halves, one of which quickly collapsed (Western Empire) while the other, though weakened, survived for centuries and protected the lands to its west, much like our Byzantine Empire did.
Excellent video! I've thought for a while that most of the Faithful had to have already moved to Middle-Earth before the Fall of Númenór. It's also interesting how corrupt Númenór had become by the time the late 2nd Age rolled around. I don't think Sauron had to work really hard to complete their corruption.
Here's a couple of video ideas
How might have things turned out if the Númenóreans chose to attack the elves in Middle-Earth instead of invading Valinor? I think one of the consequences would have been an open civil war between the King's Men and the Faithful, who would side with the elves.
A history of the different groups of men, not including Númenóreans. It would be fascinating to know what became of the Edain who didn't go to Númenór and where they ended up and other, the origins of the various groups of Easterlings, and the Northmen and other groups of Middle Men.
I've wondered that many times about if numenor declared me belonged to them and declared war on the men and elves of Lindon imladris, mirkwood and lothlorien
I would love to do more videos on the Edain, and I did actually do a video on the Northmen.
As for your hypothetical scenario, it would've been a bloody war, but Numenor (the King's Men) would've been victorious. They had the larger army, naval supremacy, and their arms and abilities would've been on par with the Elves.
@@DarthGandalfYT
Would be interesting to do a hypothetical scenario for that war death since the nobody else has done that. Please have a think about it
😊😉👍
Only kingdom of men I can think of during that time was rhovanian.
Dwarves would hunker in their halls.
Lindon did have Gil galad, Elrond, galadriel, celeborn, Cirdan, glorfindel?
But the greenwood and lorien were ruled by oropher and amdir respectively...
Where did you find the population estimates? I had been wondering how many Edain survived the First Age.
It was new information published in the Nature of Middle-earth. It was very exciting stuff for someone like myself who loves the demographics side of worldbuilding.
10K! Hell yeah brother! Livestream/special maybe? Thank you for your continued quality work.
Might do something this weekend. And thank you for your support.
@@DarthGandalfYT I’ll be on the lookout for it! Thanks!
Idea for video; Maybe talk about the Dark Land, Land of the Sun or other continents as a Middle Earth Mystery video!
Amazing video dude, I think that 200 k number is way to big for a people like the edain, Even if there were some men of Eriador among the firts people who settled in the island. Talking about the edain, it would be cool to see a video of what we know of the edain of Beleriand
I do agree that the number seems too large, but it's the number Tolkien gave in Nature of Middle-earth. The original number that appeared in Peoples of Middle-earth was 10,000, but Tolkien later clarified that it was 10,000 people in the first fleet that arrived.
Edit - I should probably add that Tolkien's description of the population of the Edain was always a bit wacky. When the Beorians entered Beleriand they numbered less than 5,000, the Haladin numbered a little more than that, and the Hadorians numbered ~15,000. How that number grew into the hundreds of thousands with all the warfare occurring is a little strange.
@@DarthGandalfYT if I remember correctly the migration took place for 50 years, some 100k seems more likely, considering that Tolkien re wrore everything, it's hard to consider even the last stuff he wrote as canon
@Darth Gandalf Dont forget how long they had to multiply during the Siege of Angband
Top notch Darth
Religious traditionalists settle the north, while a royalist slave owning faction settles the south, and they become rivals? Maybe Tolkien was not as anti-American as he seemed.
Antisouthern perhaps?
Amazing video!
What about the small group of Easterlings who remained faithful to the League of Maedhros and fought against Morgoth? Did they travel to Numenor together with the survivors of the other houses of Edain?
Unfortunately, there isn't any evidence to suggest they went to Numenor. The most common theory is that they were wiped out or absorbed into other Easterling groups. However, Tolkien did mention that some of the Men in northern Eriador were related to the Easterlings of Bor - whether they were survivors who fled back east or a different group that never crossed into Beleriand is unknown.
Great video
Amazon: "Nice story.... But I don't care. Look at these black people, it's the greatest series ever!"
Tell us all about Dol Amroth. It's interesting that it was independent yet subordinate to Gondor, in a similar fashion to Cardolan and Amlaith.
always wanted to know bro, thanks great lore video :)
you have to explain now the Edain that stayed in ME when Numenor was founded! Where they were what have they been doing... already asked u x)
keep it up, cheers!
Like with all empire’s their colonisation efforts bring both good and evil in its wake to those it conquers and colonised. With same being true for Numenor, though on balance, due to how key they and their successor kingdoms were to defeating Sauron, did more good than bad.
Did Sauron have the Ring in Numenor?
I have watched three of these video, they are very interesting but I still don't know what this is about. Book, hame, D&D
Video idea: what is Tom Bomb... no ok that is a stupid video idea...
Real idea: what do we knoe about the Dark Land far in the south?
This is a comment for the algorithm!
Any truth to the rumors that Tar-Cirytan later became the Witch King of Angmar?
I am fully aware of Tolkien's distaste for allegory, but I can't help but notice similarities and parallels with the Númenorean colonization of Middle-earth and the European colonization of the World and the great and terrible European colonial empires. I even see the Faithful as the Europeans who didn't agree with the colonial practices of their counterparts. If you think that the Faithful followed the morals of Eru and the Valar, it is understandable that they did not agree with the oppressive practices of a colonial empire, just as the morals of Christianity do not support these practices either.
It was likely very much influenced by Tolkien's personal beliefs. In one of his letters, he spoke about how he despised American and British imperialism, and in another letter, he described how much he loved England, but was completely indifferent towards the rest of the British Empire.
Perhaps more like the Viking invasions...
I like to think he wrote about ice age history to the best of his linguistic hypothization.
The kingsmen were the men of Atlas, while the faithful were the druids.
Alqualonde was his version of the city of atlantis, and lake evendim was silverpit lake, the middle earth homeland of the dunedain/danann.
He did not write allegories, because he made an actual, honest to truth, attempt at ancient history - rooted in linguistics and myth.
I think that you are overrating the morality of the Faithful.
If the Faithful remained north of the Anduin, then it was and is they who oppressed the Dunlendings. Moreover, the excuse that the Numenorean "Civilization", compared to the Dunlending "lacking" such "Civilization" is simply the repetition of the regular excuses/justifications used by Western Imperial powers for their oppression of the Whole World (not simply the Americas)..
@@michaelodonnell824 I never thought or believed that the Faithful and their descendants, the Men of Arnor and Gondor, were holy or perfect, they were Men still and also prone to mistakes, just as their forefathers, the Númenóreans, who were consider "morally higher" and "civilized" than other peoples and fell into tyranny and disgrace, more than anyone among the race of Men.
It is said that even the Valar made mistakes on certain occasions, including the creation of Númenor itself, as a gift to the Edain, there are great videos that deal with this subject, including one on The Red Book channel, I just don't remember now exactly which one.
Nothing is completely perfect in Tolkien's world (reflection of ours, I believe), only Eru...
As Tolkien referred to Sauron and the Ainur, from a Wikipedia excerpt:
"Tolkien noted that the Ainur, the 'angelic' powers of his constructed myth, 'were capable of many degrees of error and failing', but by far the worst was 'the absolute Satanic rebellion and evil of Morgoth and his satellite Sauron'."
"Tolkien stated in his Letters that although he did not think 'Absolute Evil' could exist as it would be 'Zero', 'in my story Sauron represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible.'"
I also think this applies to the forces of good as well, everything in Arda and in Eä is, to some extent, tainted by Melkor's original dissonance in the Ainulindalë and his later corruptions of the World, the difference is the amount, some beings like the Valar can be (paraphrasing Tolkien in relation to Sauron if I may): "represented as near an approach to the wholly good will as is possible".
But if even the Valar could made mistakes, I don't think the greatest and most advanced civilizations of Men in Middle-earth (Arnor and Gondor) were immune to mistakes as well...
The Númenóreans were the closest, morally speaking, to a "perfect" human civilization that could be reached (not an utopia of course, because that would be impossible, as the name implies), even receiving blessings of mind and body from the Valar themselves, and even they fell from grace...
I don't think the Faithful were immune to these deleterious effects of the corruption of Morgoth into Mankind, but they apparently remained more loyal to the teachings of Eru and the Valar than their countrymen who fell into corruption, I believe they sought to stay closer to the Númenor "before the shadow" as was humanly possible.
Arnor and Gondor weren't perfect, they must have been wonderful kingdoms to live in, especially in their Golden Age, but then again, an Utopia is something impossible to achieve (except perhaps Valinor and even there, there were problems among the Noldor), Arnor split because of a feud between heirs, Gondor had a disastrous civil war spawned by ethnic strife which led to Castamir the Usurper, who I see as nothing more than a petty tyrant who helped to ruin the Kingdom.
I see Gondor as, as close to a perfect civilization as humanly possible, what Mankind should strive for and try to be, they made mistakes like any human being would make, since there are no perfect humans, but I have clues that indicate that Gondor was a "good kingdom", the overwhelming majority of its kings were not tyrants, because they were not above the law, like in an Absolute monarchy, the Kingdom only fought in defensive wars, it only expanded to safeguard its borders, as Rome did in the beginning of its expansion, true, but unlike Rome, Gondor took no slaves and did not seek to expand further across Middle-earth in an imperialist frenzy, in its zenith under Hyarmendacil until the Kinstrife, for example, when it might well have done so, unopposed, and attempted diplomacy even with their most terrible enemies, the Black Númenóreans, through the marriage of Tarannon Falastur to Berúthiel, a strategy that unfortunately failed and war resumed.
I believe these are clues that, at least in large part, they learned from the mistakes of late Númenor, which led to its downfall.
VIDEO SUGGESTION: The final fate of the sons of Díor, the half-elves Eluréd and Elurin.
Definitely dead.
A legacy of good and bad.
Good thing the numenorians didn't decide to declare what and conquer middle earth
Who are the Druidine?
If Numenor had a population of 15,000,000 by 3319 S.A then it's no wonder Sauron's forces abandoned him! Sauron properly didn't control 900,000 by the War of the Ring, but Ar-Pharazon could easily have had an army of 4,000,000 when he arrived in Umbar!
Also, if Tar-Palantir had given up his rule a few years before his death Ar-Pharazon likely would not have been able to have become King of Numenor and Numenor would have remained Faithful and would not have been destroyed!
I am #3! WHEEEEE!!!
All nazgul are Númenórean, not only 3.
Tolkien, in one of his letters says:
"There were evil Númenóreans: Sauronians, but they do not come into this story, except remotely; as the wicked Kings who had become Nazgûl or Ringwraiths. "
Faramir, in The Two Towers, also confirm their origin:
“It is said that their lords were men of Numenor who had fallen into dark wickedness; to them the Enemy had given rings of power, and he had devoured them: living ghosts they were become, terrible and evil. Nine Lords there were, and after the return of their Master, which they aided and prepared in secret, they grew strong again.”
GONDOR!!!
Was numenor that much south of middle earth?
Yep. It was at the "equator". Using real world logic, it would've been a hot, tropical environment, but it's definitely not described that way.