A DOC is used to combust fuel left in the exhaust, it doesn't do anything for soot. It is a pass through component. The DPF catches soot, evey other tube is plugged off either at the front or back. This forces exhaust through the tiny voids in the DPF material. When the DPF starts to get full the engine will put extra unburned fuel into the exhaust. This fuel will combust but DOES NOT BURN (there is no flame) in the DOC. This heat combusts the soot caught in the DPF. As you pointed out running the engine hot will give you a passive regeneration and you won't have to actively inject fuel into the exhaust. I am a Field Service Engineer for a diesel engine manufacturer. I always correct techs and customers that say there is a fire in the DPF. Our lawyers would kick me in the backside if I didn't. Love your videos!
@@MessicksEquip let's say your ECM will start an active regen (in-mission regen in today's world) at 60 grams of soot. As you run low RPM moderate load or constantly snap the throttle you'll produce soot. This soot goes right through the DOC and gets caught in the DPF. Assuming your DOC and DPF are cool it will sit there. Now you get back on the highway back to the barn and get good load and higher RPM. The higher RPM will drive up airflow (with most turbo setups) and the higher load will create more heat. This will flow through the DPF and the soot will start to "break down". Once it goes through this chemical reaction the by products are safe and small enough to pass right out the back of the DPF. Okay now let's say you never get the engine hot and you reach 40 grams of soot in the DPF. The ECM decides its time to take action and either by injecting fuel right before the exhaust stroke (isn't common rail cool) or through an injector in the exhaust upstream of the DOC. This unburned fuel makes its way to the DOC where the DOC combusts it (though no flame should be present). This creates a bunch of heat for the DPF (and SCR which also needs high temps). Last scenario is it can't complete the regen in this manner. It lights a light, a tech hooks up and commands the ECM to do a regen while stationary. This is called a stationary (or non-mission) and obviously the manufacture wants to avoid this at all costs as it causes customer "pain".
@@MessicksEquip a hot DOC will mean a hot DPF which will combust soot. A hot DOC will actually do one other thing too. It reduces nitric oxides into NO2 instead of NO1. NO2 will actually help reduce soot in the DPF as well. That's why a "healthy" DOC is imperative to a good running aftertreatment.
@@MessicksEquip DOC only would be to reduce unburned hydrocarbons (fuel slip/white smoke). I've also seen NOx absorbers that are pass through similar to DOCs. You're not alone in thinking DOCs reduced Particulate Matter (soot). As far as I have been instructed by the design engineers DOCs cannot convert PM directly.
The money I save on fuel, is half what it’ll cost me to have my DPF cleaned. One less backyard bonfire at my house a year would offset my emission reduction from my tractor... I get you can’t but would love to hear your opinion on these systems as a knowledgeable user, rather than dealer owner. Thanks for posting, great info to have if you own one of these machines!
The real irony of all this is in order to regenerate the aftertreatment you have to make the engine less efficient. So you reduce soot output but increase carbon dioxide output. I bet a modern diesel engine in a car could get 60 MPG with no emissions tuning. Actually we know this to be true, look at volkswagon before they got caught. The TDI cars got that while the Cruze diesel got 40s. If the Cruze wasn't meeting emissions I bet it would get 60s too.
A message to the wise - If you are lucky enough to own an older machine, with no or little emissions system, BABY IT for all it is worth. MAKE IT LAST AS LONG AS POSSIBLE !! My 2005 TC 33DA has no emissions system that I no of. All I do keep it full of quality diesel and run it. It will be my last tractor. sdh in CT
I’m blessed to own a 2001 Kubota L3130, 4WD & manual transmission (none of the loud high RPM HST stuff)! Less than 500 hours and looks and runs like brand new!
I have an l2850 that is great manual trans. Sounds amazing. I miss the diesels that could idle 100yrs without a problem. I have an l6060 now and kx040 and svl95. All with emissions stuff annoying me all the time. Hopefully when they exit warranty we will have someone to fix that stuff😄😁
Great video! But as helpful as it was, it also helped to point out all of the flaws and potential problems that can happen with these systems. I wish manufacturers would develop new systems. I heard rumors that Cummins was working on something- have you heard anything?
Short question for advice. Due to the fact that you put lots of effort in explaining the different tractor sizes and type I wanted to ask which model (utility tractor with front loader) you would suggest for a small farm. Tasks would typically involve logging activities (4WD and Ground clearance important while torque is important) size because of woodworks therefore also as small as possible, secondary the tractor is being used for moving and general groundworks. The farm size is about 22 acres while field and forest are about 8 km distance (road use). Would be great to hear suggestions. Thanks
at 8km apart, I'd want something fast. 60-70Hp that can hit 18-20mph. Thats a big machine for your acreage, but I always want off the road as soon as possible.
If the DEF fluid is that volatile and has a short shelf life when not stored under ideal conditions... What do you do with a machine that doesn't see much use and perhaps the DEF fluid has been sitting in the tank for quite a while. Like perhaps a seldom used rental machine? Since it sits outside in hot, cold, damp, dry conditions, the storage environment for the fluid would most likely be considered sub-optimal.
This is the question I really want to see answered....cause I'm in that situation now with a machine that sips on the DEF when I thought it would run thru it quicker like the regen cycles on my truck....now I have a machine with year old DEF fluid and a drum of the stuff that's never been used
@@MessicksEquip ...thanks for the info...I'll just keep it full then and hope that works out. Great videos and I'm a huge Kubota fan. All of our equipment is Kubota and has been very reliable
Great video, just a few weeks back we were helping diagnose my uncle Caterpillar track skidsteer throwing regen error codes and being in limp mode and it turns out it was the DEF fluid in the tank going bad in the tank itself because of the high heat where he's at, the DEF he had in bottles probably broke down also. It stinks that something as simple as not being able to make a high heat tolerant product, for a machine that will be working somewhere with high heat, can cause so many issues and wind up requiring a tech to come check the machine.
This is a little off subject but thinking about the higher rpms not necessarily causing higher fuel consumption, does that mean that John Deere’s ePTO is stupid? Or do smaller tractors not have electronic fuel injection stuff?
The CCV filter is a nice touch. Wish the pickup trucks had one. Added one to my truck, should have seen the inside the intake from 20 years of oily crank gunk in there.
Most tractors vent to atmosphere unlike on road machines which go to the intake. Older tractors just had a line from the valve cover or similar and ran it down and just out and away. New tractors still do however it’s filtered.
Biggest thing with def that I have gotten alot of my customers doing . Buy no more then a week or two's use in the small plastic jugs. And buy them from a quality/high use distributor. Run the machine low enough between fillups that you can use the entire container. Clean around the entire def cap. Remove cap and fill. Then destroy/throw away the container. I spent an entire month or more this spring educating new users that had made costly mistakes and caused issues that were not covered by warrenty. The other big this is wait for the light to go out before you hit the battery disconnect. If there is no light then wait 5-10 minuits before hitting the battery disconnect so the system can purge itself.
Keep in mind the machine can throw codes because it doesn't recognize the small amount of DEF you are recommending your customers add either. DEF tanks don't use a float-style gauge like a gas or diesel tank, because DEF freezes at 12F. Instead, they either use a series of electrodes in the tank wall, or a sonar board. Running your DEF very low and then only refilling with a small amount might cause the tank's sensors to not register that you have actually added fluid. When you run out of DEF, the machine idles and/or shuts down.
I have to add, along with many here, this regen system has cost me, and been a real headache- and I try to take care of my machine, don't use cheap filters, oil, and maintain my L4060, 2014.
Hey a bit off topic here but on your newholland square balers 330 and 340 balers they used to and maybe still do have problems with the roller chain breaking and causing problems, a Machanic changed the routing and sprocket sizes to fix that problem and warranties it this Machanic works for a New Holland dealer called ESM Farm Equipment outa wallenstein Ontario canada if you guys as dealer are experiencing alota of those pickup problems maybe worth something to look into
I had no idea about the revs not using more fuel. I guess I was suckered because normally I put the revs up when I'm mowing or doing something with a PTO and so my fuel usage was going up with the revs and I was obviously equating them wrong
Mahindra is a big talker, with little to back it up. Their 'mCRD' is simply a DOC only engine, same as whats run by New Holland, Case, Agco, etc. We sell both systems, one is not more trouble free than the other.
One of the major reasons I went with a Massey Ferguson (Iseki) compact tractor is that it has no regen cycle, unlike the Kubota B3350 I was looking at. There's a DPF canister, but it does not require a regen cycle to clean itself. In fact the Kubota dealer I spoke to tried to talk me into getting a B2650 instead to avoid the regen cycle, but for my use case I really thought getting into the mid-30's HP range was a good idea.
Yours is DOC only, just like the New Hollands we sell. Its no any more trouble free. avoiding the B3350 was not all bad, they had trouble with that one.
@@Joey-ve7ku Actually it may or may not be. You can remove it, yes, but the engine won't run, or won't run right. The ECU would see the exhaust components were removed and trigger trouble codes which might not let you operate above idle or operate at all. Everybody deletes pickup trucks, but they use a tuner to do so. The tuner tells the engine to operate in 'military' or 'off-road' mode, which doesn't require emissions. The tuner also tells the engine that a DPF / DEF system is no longer present, so it will not attempt to perform a regen or inject DEF. So while these tuners are readily available for pickup trucks, they are not for ag or construction equipment. Or at least not easily available.
Very informative! I have noticed that the tractor starts the burning process more often when it is used for lighter jobs (spraying, spreading fertilizer etc.) and less often when it's tillage time!
Just FYI I run my Kubota M5-111 at 2200 rpm most of the time. While raking hay I will run it at 15-1800rpm. The DEF header has gone bad and now I'm getting an intermittent "bad DEF" warning. I have yet to find anything that the government gets involved with that actually improves. I still like my tractor but I wish I would have bought an M9540 back in 2010 when I bough my M6040 and then I wouldn't have had to upgrade my HP.
I should do a video on this. Same tips apply. The Doc only style is effectively always burning. I would not say in our experience one is better than the other.
@@MessicksEquip That would be great. But as far as ive read the doc only setup only needs around 400 degrees Fahrenheit minimum to work, unlike a dpf which needs around 1100 to keep clean? But yes a video on this would be great, it gets annoying reading forums and infomercials of these two offroad setups.
You'd have thought that they could create a fluid to help scrub the emissions that is able to handle the high heat that lots and lots of machines are going to see but I guess not.
Most of the time these machines are being used enough to need to refill DEF well before it would expire, even in a higher heat situation. It's a fine line though...operators don't want to be refilling DEF all the time, but don't want it to go bad, either.
@@tylermacconnell217 ...well, I have a new machine that gets used quite a lot on the farm and it barley sips the DEF fluid and now what's in there is over a year old plus I have a drum of the stuff cause I thought it might go thru it quicker and nobody said anything about it having such a short shelf life....
That's unfortunate you bought so much - you might be able to sell some to other diesel users. If DEF is kept cool it lasts longer. In a diesel pickup truck, you typically get 1,000 miles per gallon of DEF used. But you will use more DEF the harder the engine works.
Betting significant number of people watching this video missed the point that not all emission control system use a DPF filter. Yes about to use cut and paste - sue me. Just like to get things right and not just close or inaccurate. The exhaust after treatment devices used on John Deere, Kubota and Cummings are high pressure common rail (HPCR), exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) system usually, Diesel Oxidation Catalysts (DOC), Diesel Particulate Filters (DPF) and Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) catalysts. For Fiat and Acco engines delete the DPF. The proceeding may not always apply for all engines from a manufacturer. Most engines 75 engine horsepower and under can meet emission control standard without using DEP which ( corrected spelling) is used in the final step in the SCR to remove NOx gasses.
DPF seems good to me because I wont have to breath in that deadly soot. I mean if you run your machine and work it, it seems like you don't have to regen often and you breath better air. Why is everyone have such an issue with this?
parts and service that aren't easy to self-do extra special requirements, not some simple, basic making it much more / nearly impossible to be independent operator for decades on end, always needing to rely on something/someone else - it's no good that way
Higher loads and lower engine speed actually makes more heat...take a semi up a grade and let the engine lug down...if you don’t gear down and keep the revs up the exhaust temp will go up until you melt the turbo inducer. Diesel engine speed and power output is 100% controlled by fuel flow...the only difference between the economy PTO and the normal PTO is the engine drag and fluid losses in the drivetrain and noise in the cab. The EGR system causes soot and a poor burn and that causes the most problems with the DPF. The CCV or crank case ventilation filter is a good thing because it coalesces the oil out of the blowby and keeps it out of the combustion chambers.
C’mon Neil...common rail, electronic fuel injection or not...higher RPMs means more fuel consumption. Furthermore, even a DPF-equipped tractor doesn’t need to be run at high RPM all the time. Think about all the diesel trucks on the road with DPFs. They idle a lot, and cruise at far less than wide open throttle. The reason they don’t cruise at wide open throttle is to lower fuel consumption of course, along with reduce noise levels and engine wear. As a rule of thumb, just don’t excessively idle or operate at low rpm. Lastly, be very careful what type of additives you are using. High pressure fuel pumps require lubrication from the diesel itself, and some additives contain solvents which strip that lube. Others claim to eliminate water...they typically emulsify it which means water is still flowing through the pump...bad news. Better to let the water separator for its job and drain it.
Higher rpm does not mean more fuel consumption at all. Spend a bit of time with a tractor on a PTO dynometer and you'll find that statement to be not true at all. The harder the engine works= more fuel consumption. Ask yourself this, is an engine that is at half throttle with a hard load working harder than an engine at full throttle with the same load? Yes and the same engine at full operating rpm with the same load is making more power and being more efficient thus not working as hard to overcome that load, thus using less fuel and also running cooler. Played with this many times over the years on dynos and in the field. Granted there are always exceptions to this as if there is no or very little load on the engine then of course lower rpm with reduce fuel consumption. But that being said with emissions equipment we have found the systems to function better and last longer with high rpm and high load applications. With higher temps in the system there is far less carbon buildup and therefore less (and shorter) regen cycles and issues in general. I personally don't agree at all with the concept of emissions equipment and find it to be just another money grab for governments but it's something we have to deal with.
You are describing a "lugging" scenario operating under heavy load at half-throttle. Not good for the engine, and will use just as much if not more fuel. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying an engine will use the least amount of fuel when it is running at the lowest RPM it needs to in order to efficiently perform the work required. At no load, clearly running an engine at full throttle uses a lot more fuel than running an engine at idle. High RPM means many more piston cycles. For every four times the piston moves, fuel is injected, whether common rail or mechanical. So if you are running a lot more cycles (high RPM) with no load, than yes...many more fuel injections occur. So if you are just doing some task that definitely doesn't require full throttle to do efficiently...you are wasting fuel. Which is my point...why do you suppose over the road trucks have high ratio gears? For the sole purpose of dropping RPM to save fuel, noise, and wear and tear.
Yes, more RPM's will equal more fuel use... but only the tiny amount of fuel it takes to spin the pistons. Fuel use is not linear with RPM like an old mechanical fuel pump. all the diesel trucks idling and running at low RPM are the reason they have so many more emissions related problems than we do with equipment. You certainly don't need to be a WOT all the time, what's problematic is the operators that decide they want to work at near idle RPMs. I'm with you on additives.
I agree with you, but I would also note that it's not a horrible thing to idle some of the time. In the diesel pickup world, most manufacturers suggest no more than 20% of engine hours be idling hours. I suspect the ag engine world is similar.
Emission control,systems are a pain, and they’re not perfect, but if everyone would just stop and think a bit about your children, and their children, perhaps we could agree that a bit investment in emissions reduction systems and other forms of pollution controls might just be worth a bit of “pain”. Of course many choose to believe that pollution is just some form of “fake news”, but c’mon people - just look around at the crap we and our predecessors having been pouring out of our factories and vehicles for more than a hundred years. One tractor without emission controls wont cause significant impact, but hundreds of thousands or millions of tractors worldwide will. Can we not just stop thinking about ourselves and care a bit about future generations?
Prof Dave I think it is like driving 20 miles out of way to save 10 cents a gallon on gas. injecting more fuel into the exhaust. takes oil and fossil fuel to make and haul the def. plastic Def.jugs going to the landfill. bulk def. tanks have to be heated or it will freeze. More energy used. not to mention all the check engine lights and break downs. idling kills these systems. in trucking drivers do not want to freeze so they idle. . we have a fleet of one hundred semi trucks. 4 and 5 check engine lights a day . ignore it and you are towing it in thanks to our goverment. average people do not understand the cost and aggravation this causes. especially when you depend on this equipment to do a job. deliver products . parts for this system can cost thousands. .in one instant we had to decide if 4 year old truck was worth fixing or not. 20 grand to replace entire system due to oil contamination. run a little guy out of business. ridiculous. where do you think it goes when they clean the dpf. filter. ? yep right in the dumpster. of course you can't talk about it .don't fit the naritiv
bronco 79 fair comment and I understand that the dpf’s are annoying and can add cost to operate and repair (and buy for that matter). I also realize the overall impact seems insignificant, and there are other associated energy requirements and waste products. As I said up front, they’re not perfect, but the net value of them is probably worth it. While it takes a bit of fuel to burn them out, it’s a VERY small amount, and what it removes is the chemically-laced soot, which is directly related to climactic impact and water acidification. It’s nasty - nastier than the the products of efficient hydrocarbon combustion. That said, I totally agree that the early growing pains from these systems should not negatively impact small business. And no doubt there are many other ways we can reduce environmental pollution - but we really have to start somewhere.
no, this is nonsense stop having so many fucking children stop with the super-consumerist materialist lifestyles stop with all the toxic synthetic chemical+textile products that are nothing but poisons for the earth stop with conventional agricultural methods worrying about the tiny tiny output of a one-person use carbon emissions is utter nonsense for so many reasons - also know that carbon is the cornerstone of all life and not an issue and those telling you it is have an agenda that has nothing to do with caring about the health of the planet or anyone/anything on it
I agree with your presentation, but the emission systems are crap. I have had nothing but trouble with them on my trucks. You shouldn't have to rev the crap out of it all day to make it run right. Its not your fault, and I do not blame the manufacturers. They cost thousands of dollars, cause endless problems, and are unreliable. One of my trucks said " 99 miles left before limp mode " wonderful. These rules are ridiculous.
@@MessicksEquip I have a L5040 and I am sure glad it does not have these systems. 90% of my use is non pto operation. over half my use is short, non strenuous use. During the winter I load salt and sand on to my truck, then shut it down. During the summer I do several easy tasks with little to no throttle. It would die with the way I use it. Great videos by the way. Great resource.
I had no idea about the revs not using more fuel. I guess I was suckered because normally I put the revs up when I'm mowing or doing something with a PTO and so my fuel usage was going up with the revs and I was obviously equating them wrong
@@jagx234 I'm a JD guy myself. The JD 1-series uses a mechanical injector pump for sure. Just like the Yanmar's on the rest of the SCUT/CUT tractors. So for you higher revs means higher fuel usage. :-)
A DOC is used to combust fuel left in the exhaust, it doesn't do anything for soot. It is a pass through component. The DPF catches soot, evey other tube is plugged off either at the front or back. This forces exhaust through the tiny voids in the DPF material. When the DPF starts to get full the engine will put extra unburned fuel into the exhaust. This fuel will combust but DOES NOT BURN (there is no flame) in the DOC. This heat combusts the soot caught in the DPF. As you pointed out running the engine hot will give you a passive regeneration and you won't have to actively inject fuel into the exhaust. I am a Field Service Engineer for a diesel engine manufacturer. I always correct techs and customers that say there is a fire in the DPF. Our lawyers would kick me in the backside if I didn't. Love your videos!
Fantastic reply. I was always under the impression that a hot DOC would treat soot (and is non-compliant when cold). How is PM addressed?
@@MessicksEquip let's say your ECM will start an active regen (in-mission regen in today's world) at 60 grams of soot. As you run low RPM moderate load or constantly snap the throttle you'll produce soot. This soot goes right through the DOC and gets caught in the DPF. Assuming your DOC and DPF are cool it will sit there. Now you get back on the highway back to the barn and get good load and higher RPM. The higher RPM will drive up airflow (with most turbo setups) and the higher load will create more heat. This will flow through the DPF and the soot will start to "break down". Once it goes through this chemical reaction the by products are safe and small enough to pass right out the back of the DPF.
Okay now let's say you never get the engine hot and you reach 40 grams of soot in the DPF. The ECM decides its time to take action and either by injecting fuel right before the exhaust stroke (isn't common rail cool) or through an injector in the exhaust upstream of the DOC. This unburned fuel makes its way to the DOC where the DOC combusts it (though no flame should be present). This creates a bunch of heat for the DPF (and SCR which also needs high temps).
Last scenario is it can't complete the regen in this manner. It lights a light, a tech hooks up and commands the ECM to do a regen while stationary. This is called a stationary (or non-mission) and obviously the manufacture wants to avoid this at all costs as it causes customer "pain".
@@MessicksEquip a hot DOC will mean a hot DPF which will combust soot. A hot DOC will actually do one other thing too. It reduces nitric oxides into NO2 instead of NO1. NO2 will actually help reduce soot in the DPF as well. That's why a "healthy" DOC is imperative to a good running aftertreatment.
was referring to the DOC only versions, not the DOC + DPF.
@@MessicksEquip DOC only would be to reduce unburned hydrocarbons (fuel slip/white smoke). I've also seen NOx absorbers that are pass through similar to DOCs. You're not alone in thinking DOCs reduced Particulate Matter (soot). As far as I have been instructed by the design engineers DOCs cannot convert PM directly.
The money I save on fuel, is half what it’ll cost me to have my DPF cleaned. One less backyard bonfire at my house a year would offset my emission reduction from my tractor... I get you can’t but would love to hear your opinion on these systems as a knowledgeable user, rather than dealer owner.
Thanks for posting, great info to have if you own one of these machines!
The real irony of all this is in order to regenerate the aftertreatment you have to make the engine less efficient. So you reduce soot output but increase carbon dioxide output. I bet a modern diesel engine in a car could get 60 MPG with no emissions tuning. Actually we know this to be true, look at volkswagon before they got caught. The TDI cars got that while the Cruze diesel got 40s. If the Cruze wasn't meeting emissions I bet it would get 60s too.
A message to the wise - If you are lucky enough to own an older machine, with no or little emissions system, BABY IT for all it is worth. MAKE IT LAST AS LONG AS POSSIBLE !! My 2005 TC 33DA has no emissions system that I no of. All I do keep it full of quality diesel and run it. It will be my last tractor. sdh in CT
I’m blessed to own a 2001 Kubota L3130, 4WD & manual transmission (none of the loud high RPM HST stuff)! Less than 500 hours and looks and runs like brand new!
I've got a 06 l3400 man. Trans LOVE it screw that new crap.
I have an l2850 that is great manual trans. Sounds amazing. I miss the diesels that could idle 100yrs without a problem. I have an l6060 now and kx040 and svl95. All with emissions stuff annoying me all the time. Hopefully when they exit warranty we will have someone to fix that stuff😄😁
Step 1: Remove the emissions BS.
Was just about to comment this too
Damnit, you beat me to say it
But don't you have to tune the tractor if you do this?
@@4-LOW yes, plenty of guys online do ag and construction tuning.
Great video! But as helpful as it was, it also helped to point out all of the flaws and potential problems that can happen with these systems. I wish manufacturers would develop new systems. I heard rumors that Cummins was working on something- have you heard anything?
Step #1) buy older machine that doesn’t have DPF. There, problem solved.
Correct step 1, buy new machine and delete it.
I hate emissions on any Diesel engine
Short question for advice. Due to the fact that you put lots of effort in explaining the different tractor sizes and type I wanted to ask which model (utility tractor with front loader) you would suggest for a small farm. Tasks would typically involve logging activities (4WD and Ground clearance important while torque is important) size because of woodworks therefore also as small as possible, secondary the tractor is being used for moving and general groundworks. The farm size is about 22 acres while field and forest are about 8 km distance (road use). Would be great to hear suggestions. Thanks
at 8km apart, I'd want something fast. 60-70Hp that can hit 18-20mph. Thats a big machine for your acreage, but I always want off the road as soon as possible.
60 horse Kubota would be perfect loader 4x4 and your ready to go it will do everything you named and some thing that may come up
right though about similar size machine. thank you both for your suggestions!
The important message is from 8:40 until the end.
Good information, I have a M7060 that has the dog and I rarely have to run regen. I do not let it sit and idle and run.
If the DEF fluid is that volatile and has a short shelf life when not stored under ideal conditions... What do you do with a machine that doesn't see much use and perhaps the DEF fluid has been sitting in the tank for quite a while. Like perhaps a seldom used rental machine? Since it sits outside in hot, cold, damp, dry conditions, the storage environment for the fluid would most likely be considered sub-optimal.
This is the question I really want to see answered....cause I'm in that situation now with a machine that sips on the DEF when I thought it would run thru it quicker like the regen cycles on my truck....now I have a machine with year old DEF fluid and a drum of the stuff that's never been used
We are being told to keep the Def tank as full as possible for storage. Stabilizes the temperature, helps off gassing.
@@MessicksEquip ...thanks for the info...I'll just keep it full then and hope that works out. Great videos and I'm a huge Kubota fan. All of our equipment is Kubota and has been very reliable
Anyone making delete kits for these? Or can you just hacksaw and straight pipe them?
Great video, just a few weeks back we were helping diagnose my uncle Caterpillar track skidsteer throwing regen error codes and being in limp mode and it turns out it was the DEF fluid in the tank going bad in the tank itself because of the high heat where he's at, the DEF he had in bottles probably broke down also. It stinks that something as simple as not being able to make a high heat tolerant product, for a machine that will be working somewhere with high heat, can cause so many issues and wind up requiring a tech to come check the machine.
Tip 7~ buy a tier 3 tractor😁
This is a little off subject but thinking about the higher rpms not necessarily causing higher fuel consumption, does that mean that John Deere’s ePTO is stupid? Or do smaller tractors not have electronic fuel injection stuff?
Yea.. your thinking there is correct. It would save noise, but fuel use would be negligible.
I wonder if it's less wear on parts also?
Kinda sorta. I have heard factory people refer to it as silly. I'd still like it for lower noise.
Great to have Neil back! Thanks for the emissions video.
Do all of these tips also apply to compact tractors over 26HP and/or are there specific things that apply to the compact tractors?
Most, not the DEF bits.
You guys, and this fellow in particular, do a very good job. Well done.
The CCV filter is a nice touch. Wish the pickup trucks had one. Added one to my truck, should have seen the inside the intake from 20 years of oily crank gunk in there.
Pickups do have them now.
Tyler MacConnell about time 20 years later
Most tractors vent to atmosphere unlike on road machines which go to the intake. Older tractors just had a line from the valve cover or similar and ran it down and just out and away. New tractors still do however it’s filtered.
Biggest thing with def that I have gotten alot of my customers doing . Buy no more then a week or two's use in the small plastic jugs. And buy them from a quality/high use distributor. Run the machine low enough between fillups that you can use the entire container. Clean around the entire def cap. Remove cap and fill. Then destroy/throw away the container. I spent an entire month or more this spring educating new users that had made costly mistakes and caused issues that were not covered by warrenty. The other big this is wait for the light to go out before you hit the battery disconnect. If there is no light then wait 5-10 minuits before hitting the battery disconnect so the system can purge itself.
Keep in mind the machine can throw codes because it doesn't recognize the small amount of DEF you are recommending your customers add either. DEF tanks don't use a float-style gauge like a gas or diesel tank, because DEF freezes at 12F. Instead, they either use a series of electrodes in the tank wall, or a sonar board. Running your DEF very low and then only refilling with a small amount might cause the tank's sensors to not register that you have actually added fluid. When you run out of DEF, the machine idles and/or shuts down.
I have to add, along with many here, this regen system has cost me, and been a real headache- and I try to take care of my machine, don't use cheap filters, oil, and maintain my L4060, 2014.
when you mention revs, what number equals the proper rpms for the system to work well
half or more.
Messick's I don’t understand your reply ? Half or more????
@@davidlees4900 half-throttle or more.
great information I didn't know about. My tractor was last year they didn't require regen.
Very nice machines, but the emissions stuff still scares me. I love my 2003 CAT 236 no emissions.
Hey a bit off topic here but on your newholland square balers 330 and 340 balers they used to and maybe still do have problems with the roller chain breaking and causing problems, a Machanic changed the routing and sprocket sizes to fix that problem and warranties it this Machanic works for a New Holland dealer called ESM Farm Equipment outa wallenstein Ontario canada if you guys as dealer are experiencing alota of those pickup problems maybe worth something to look into
I had no idea about the revs not using more fuel. I guess I was suckered because normally I put the revs up when I'm mowing or doing something with a PTO and so my fuel usage was going up with the revs and I was obviously equating them wrong
The EPA has ruined everything
I know you don't sell Mahindra but do you have any thoughts on their tier 4 system that does not require regen nor DEF?
Mahindra is a big talker, with little to back it up. Their 'mCRD' is simply a DOC only engine, same as whats run by New Holland, Case, Agco, etc. We sell both systems, one is not more trouble free than the other.
One of the major reasons I went with a Massey Ferguson (Iseki) compact tractor is that it has no regen cycle, unlike the Kubota B3350 I was looking at. There's a DPF canister, but it does not require a regen cycle to clean itself. In fact the Kubota dealer I spoke to tried to talk me into getting a B2650 instead to avoid the regen cycle, but for my use case I really thought getting into the mid-30's HP range was a good idea.
Yours is DOC only, just like the New Hollands we sell. Its no any more trouble free. avoiding the B3350 was not all bad, they had trouble with that one.
Glad I bought a pre-emissions tractor don’t have to run at WOT at all times.
seems to me that the exhaust/def system should (quietly) removed
Was just wondering if it was possible.
@@rikertvonfulton16 Of course it's possible
@@Joey-ve7ku Actually it may or may not be. You can remove it, yes, but the engine won't run, or won't run right. The ECU would see the exhaust components were removed and trigger trouble codes which might not let you operate above idle or operate at all. Everybody deletes pickup trucks, but they use a tuner to do so. The tuner tells the engine to operate in 'military' or 'off-road' mode, which doesn't require emissions. The tuner also tells the engine that a DPF / DEF system is no longer present, so it will not attempt to perform a regen or inject DEF. So while these tuners are readily available for pickup trucks, they are not for ag or construction equipment. Or at least not easily available.
@@tylermacconnell217 I've seen brand new 6150m john deeres that have had emission systems deleted.
They do make them. Eco tuning does a lot of them.
Very informative! I have noticed that the tractor starts the burning process more often when it is used for lighter jobs (spraying, spreading fertilizer etc.) and less often when it's tillage time!
Hot Hippo high load high heat less regen
I'm still waiting for Al Gore to put a DPF on the Gulfstream he flies privately.
This is a very useful video Neil usually not a fan but great job.
Thank you. Very informative 🇨🇦🤙🏼
Just FYI I run my Kubota M5-111 at 2200 rpm most of the time. While raking hay I will run it at 15-1800rpm. The DEF header has gone bad and now I'm getting an intermittent "bad DEF" warning. I have yet to find anything that the government gets involved with that actually improves. I still like my tractor but I wish I would have bought an M9540 back in 2010 when I bough my M6040 and then I wouldn't have had to upgrade my HP.
Common problem right now. Happens when your DEF gets too hot and off gasses. They have an update kit for it.
@@MessicksEquip Yessir, she's headed to the dealer on Saturday so they can get started first thing Monday.
only if there was someone who could delete my kubota like my dodge....
Great information. Thanks!
What about all the scr only engines in cnh and some agco equipment? I know they don't inject diesel into the exhaust like the dpf set ups do
I should do a video on this. Same tips apply. The Doc only style is effectively always burning. I would not say in our experience one is better than the other.
@@MessicksEquip That would be great. But as far as ive read the doc only setup only needs around 400 degrees Fahrenheit minimum to work, unlike a dpf which needs around 1100 to keep clean? But yes a video on this would be great, it gets annoying reading forums and infomercials of these two offroad setups.
30% urea and 70% water (DEF) has a short shelf life?....who knew?...🤣🤦♂️
Doug Dickey
Yep it separates and crystals form. Also the water evaporates
You'd have thought that they could create a fluid to help scrub the emissions that is able to handle the high heat that lots and lots of machines are going to see but I guess not.
Most of the time these machines are being used enough to need to refill DEF well before it would expire, even in a higher heat situation. It's a fine line though...operators don't want to be refilling DEF all the time, but don't want it to go bad, either.
@@tylermacconnell217 ...well, I have a new machine that gets used quite a lot on the farm and it barley sips the DEF fluid and now what's in there is over a year old plus I have a drum of the stuff cause I thought it might go thru it quicker and nobody said anything about it having such a short shelf life....
That's unfortunate you bought so much - you might be able to sell some to other diesel users. If DEF is kept cool it lasts longer. In a diesel pickup truck, you typically get 1,000 miles per gallon of DEF used. But you will use more DEF the harder the engine works.
fantastic tips
Betting significant number of people watching this video missed the point that not all emission control system use a DPF filter. Yes about to use cut and paste - sue me. Just like to get things right and not just close or inaccurate. The exhaust after treatment devices used on John Deere, Kubota and Cummings are high pressure common rail (HPCR), exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) system usually, Diesel Oxidation Catalysts (DOC), Diesel Particulate Filters (DPF) and Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) catalysts. For Fiat and Acco engines delete the DPF. The proceeding may not always apply for all engines from a manufacturer. Most engines 75 engine horsepower and under can meet emission control standard without using DEP which ( corrected spelling) is used in the final step in the SCR to remove NOx gasses.
Thank you!
Love your videos (by in large)
DPF seems good to me because I wont have to breath in that deadly soot. I mean if you run your machine and work it, it seems like you don't have to regen often and you breath better air. Why is everyone have such an issue with this?
parts and service that aren't easy to self-do
extra special requirements, not some simple, basic
making it much more / nearly impossible to be independent operator for decades on end, always needing to rely on something/someone else - it's no good that way
As long as you keep wearing your mask while alone in your car you should be perfectly fine.
Good thing some tractors have a economy PTO you know low rpm
Literally the point of the video is that higher RPMs are better...
Then why give a tractor a economy PTO to run Less RPMs if you need to run higher rpm’s for your particular filter
Very good point, one I've heard from manufacturers. It's a feature people ask for, even if it makes little sense
Higher loads and lower engine speed actually makes more heat...take a semi up a grade and let the engine lug down...if you don’t gear down and keep the revs up the exhaust temp will go up until you melt the turbo inducer. Diesel engine speed and power output is 100% controlled by fuel flow...the only difference between the economy PTO and the normal PTO is the engine drag and fluid losses in the drivetrain and noise in the cab. The EGR system causes soot and a poor burn and that causes the most problems with the DPF. The CCV or crank case ventilation filter is a good thing because it coalesces the oil out of the blowby and keeps it out of the combustion chambers.
C’mon Neil...common rail, electronic fuel injection or not...higher RPMs means more fuel consumption.
Furthermore, even a DPF-equipped tractor doesn’t need to be run at high RPM all the time. Think about all the diesel trucks on the road with DPFs. They idle a lot, and cruise at far less than wide open throttle. The reason they don’t cruise at wide open throttle is to lower fuel consumption of course, along with reduce noise levels and engine wear. As a rule of thumb, just don’t excessively idle or operate at low rpm.
Lastly, be very careful what type of additives you are using. High pressure fuel pumps require lubrication from the diesel itself, and some additives contain solvents which strip that lube. Others claim to eliminate water...they typically emulsify it which means water is still flowing through the pump...bad news. Better to let the water separator for its job and drain it.
Higher rpm does not mean more fuel consumption at all. Spend a bit of time with a tractor on a PTO dynometer and you'll find that statement to be not true at all. The harder the engine works= more fuel consumption.
Ask yourself this, is an engine that is at half throttle with a hard load working harder than an engine at full throttle with the same load? Yes and the same engine at full operating rpm with the same load is making more power and being more efficient thus not working as hard to overcome that load, thus using less fuel and also running cooler. Played with this many times over the years on dynos and in the field. Granted there are always exceptions to this as if there is no or very little load on the engine then of course lower rpm with reduce fuel consumption.
But that being said with emissions equipment we have found the systems to function better and last longer with high rpm and high load applications. With higher temps in the system there is far less carbon buildup and therefore less (and shorter) regen cycles and issues in general. I personally don't agree at all with the concept of emissions equipment and find it to be just another money grab for governments but it's something we have to deal with.
You are describing a "lugging" scenario operating under heavy load at half-throttle. Not good for the engine, and will use just as much if not more fuel. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying an engine will use the least amount of fuel when it is running at the lowest RPM it needs to in order to efficiently perform the work required.
At no load, clearly running an engine at full throttle uses a lot more fuel than running an engine at idle. High RPM means many more piston cycles. For every four times the piston moves, fuel is injected, whether common rail or mechanical. So if you are running a lot more cycles (high RPM) with no load, than yes...many more fuel injections occur.
So if you are just doing some task that definitely doesn't require full throttle to do efficiently...you are wasting fuel. Which is my point...why do you suppose over the road trucks have high ratio gears? For the sole purpose of dropping RPM to save fuel, noise, and wear and tear.
Yes, more RPM's will equal more fuel use... but only the tiny amount of fuel it takes to spin the pistons. Fuel use is not linear with RPM like an old mechanical fuel pump.
all the diesel trucks idling and running at low RPM are the reason they have so many more emissions related problems than we do with equipment. You certainly don't need to be a WOT all the time, what's problematic is the operators that decide they want to work at near idle RPMs.
I'm with you on additives.
I agree with you, but I would also note that it's not a horrible thing to idle some of the time. In the diesel pickup world, most manufacturers suggest no more than 20% of engine hours be idling hours. I suspect the ag engine world is similar.
Best you use something like 1600 RPM: Highest Torque, not too loud engine, good fuel consunption but still a lot of heat.
Emission control,systems are a pain, and they’re not perfect, but if everyone would just stop and think a bit about your children, and their children, perhaps we could agree that a bit investment in emissions reduction systems and other forms of pollution controls might just be worth a bit of “pain”. Of course many choose to believe that pollution is just some form of “fake news”, but c’mon people - just look around at the crap we and our predecessors having been pouring out of our factories and vehicles for more than a hundred years. One tractor without emission controls wont cause significant impact, but hundreds of thousands or millions of tractors worldwide will. Can we not just stop thinking about ourselves and care a bit about future generations?
Prof Dave I think it is like driving 20 miles out of way to save 10 cents a gallon on gas. injecting more fuel into the exhaust. takes oil and fossil fuel to make and haul the def. plastic Def.jugs going to the landfill. bulk def. tanks have to be heated or it will freeze. More energy used. not to mention all the check engine lights and break downs. idling kills these systems. in trucking drivers do not want to freeze so they idle. . we have a fleet of one hundred semi trucks. 4 and 5 check engine lights a day . ignore it and you are towing it in thanks to our goverment. average people do not understand the cost and aggravation this causes. especially when you depend on this equipment to do a job. deliver products . parts for this system can cost thousands. .in one instant we had to decide if 4 year old truck was worth fixing or not. 20 grand to replace entire system due to oil contamination. run a little guy out of business. ridiculous. where do you think it goes when they clean the dpf. filter. ? yep right in the dumpster. of course you can't talk about it .don't fit the naritiv
bronco 79 fair comment and I understand that the dpf’s are annoying and can add cost to operate and repair (and buy for that matter). I also realize the overall impact seems insignificant, and there are other associated energy requirements and waste products. As I said up front, they’re not perfect, but the net value of them is probably worth it. While it takes a bit of fuel to burn them out, it’s a VERY small amount, and what it removes is the chemically-laced soot, which is directly related to climactic impact and water acidification. It’s nasty - nastier than the the products of efficient hydrocarbon combustion.
That said, I totally agree that the early growing pains from these systems should not negatively impact small business. And no doubt there are many other ways we can reduce environmental pollution - but we really have to start somewhere.
no, this is nonsense
stop having so many fucking children
stop with the super-consumerist materialist lifestyles
stop with all the toxic synthetic chemical+textile products that are nothing but poisons for the earth
stop with conventional agricultural methods
worrying about the tiny tiny output of a one-person use carbon emissions is utter nonsense for so many reasons - also know that carbon is the cornerstone of all life and not an issue and those telling you it is have an agenda that has nothing to do with caring about the health of the planet or anyone/anything on it
Fertilizer tank...
I agree with your presentation, but the emission systems are crap. I have had nothing but trouble with them on my trucks. You shouldn't have to rev the crap out of it all day to make it run right. Its not your fault, and I do not blame the manufacturers. They cost thousands of dollars, cause endless problems, and are unreliable. One of my trucks said " 99 miles left before limp mode " wonderful. These rules are ridiculous.
Yea, equipment industry had a fraction of the problems they had had with trucks. Duty cycle is totally different.
@@MessicksEquip I have a L5040 and I am sure glad it does not have these systems. 90% of my use is non pto operation. over half my use is short, non strenuous use. During the winter I load salt and sand on to my truck, then shut it down. During the summer I do several easy tasks with little to no throttle. It would die with the way I use it. Great videos by the way. Great resource.
Can we get Trump to rid of Obama's stupid emission laws?
This stuff was laid out by Bush #1 believe it or not.
Many whiners here.
Gov. over reach. Was supposed to be for road use. Vote with your wallet. Buy equipment that has gotten around dpf requirement.
I had no idea about the revs not using more fuel. I guess I was suckered because normally I put the revs up when I'm mowing or doing something with a PTO and so my fuel usage was going up with the revs and I was obviously equating them wrong
Does your tractor have a mechanical fuel injector pump?
@@eosjoe565 it's a 2018 1025R, I imagine not with it being that new, but I haven't seen yeah or nay on that
@@jagx234 I'm a JD guy myself. The JD 1-series uses a mechanical injector pump for sure. Just like the Yanmar's on the rest of the SCUT/CUT tractors. So for you higher revs means higher fuel usage. :-)
Electronic starts over 26hp
@@MessicksEquip My tractor is 30 HP and it is mechanical.