Actually Dave is right, Dental school costs around $60k-$90k per year, at most it'll cost $380k before interest, which if you factor in interest for 4 years it'll be $400k after 4 years of interest, but most cost around $60k so around $240k before interest or around $260k after interest for 4 years
Blake B I love Dave but he needs to do a bit more research on this. For public dental schools you’re lookin at about 300k. I’m a dental student at Midwestern-AZ (a private school) and I will come out with about 550k
Cade Nykamp I agree, he is really out of date on the dental school tuitions, especially with the cost of applications. I applied to nine schools and got into one school, a private school out of state in a big city. The tuition is $77K plus added fees which round to $90K per year. It’s really insulting to hear Dave talk about how ridiculous the number $450K is and claiming we’re not doing enough research. Not every applicant is lucky enough to have their pick in schools and selecting the least expensive school that’ll cost $200K. I’ve listened to a ton of videos where callers are calling in about their dental school debt with the correct price and Dave brushes them off as ridiculous. Dave’s advice would be much more helpful if he came to the reality of what dental schools cost right now and instead of talking with current dentists, who went to school maybe twenty years ago and the prices to go to school was significantly lower by more than half, he should talk to current dental students who are taking out the loans to pay for the $400K for school.
Caller was right, those loans have huge interest rates that start compounding on day one. Most of these students are going to be on REPAYE. I did a video called "Is Dental School Worth It". Short answer - financially, no.
@@BitterComments They are not talking about tuition. They are adding in "living expenses". A lot of these schools are the ones that will let in anyone, but charge a ton. They get the suckers. Tuition is not 400K. Maybe a few private schools. U Tennessee is 30K a year.
Chris Baker and live on what during this time? Remember also that it wasn't 320k I had it was 320k borrowed and only because I promised to become a dentist for it
Truth - Did you ever consider the military scholarship? You can graduate debt free from dental school and get a $2200/month stipend. You'll be making about $80-90k your first year and probably top out at about $110k at the end of four years. Debt free, making nearly $100k after dental school, an opportunity to serve your country, and primed to own your own practice by the time you're 30? Seems like an awesome opportunity to me.
I would think it is dependent on which college you go to no? I mean my state-subsidized school Stonybrook dental says 25k per year for 4 years. Now that doesn't take into account rent, bills and food but it still would not be anywhere near 450k.
Dave is actually incorrect this time. Dental School is a 4 year program, not 1.5-2 years. Also if you go out of state or to a private dental school it DOES in fact cost that much. It's about 100k a year and you accrue interest from Day 1.
sigor2011 not all states have a dental school, and some states only have private schools. I was blessed enough to have options and chose my state school with a scholarship, not everyone is that fortunate. Average cost of attendance for instate students still averages around 75k, again with about 6.4% interest accruing from day 1. It's an expensive profession.
Easier said than done. There are only 63 dental schools in the country, and only 40-50% of applicants are accepted. Out of state applicants to public schools have roughly a 10% chance of being admitted
doctorly.org/cost-vs-reward-of-a-dental-school-education/ this says "Average debt for all dental school graduates who owed money was $247,227: public school graduates ($216,437) and private school graduates ($289,897)."
goodmanbryan707 yeah we know not all states have a dental school. That said, you MUST do the math and think, is it really worth ruining quite possibly the rest of your life by borrowing money for a piece of paper regardless of what it’s in? I personally don’t but to each their own.
Dental school is 4 years long and almost every dental school costs more than the same school's med program. Don't claim to be an expert on something you have no idea about
My retired dentist used to also teach dental school, and maintain his practice (for 40 years.) He said out of 10 students, 2 will make good dentists, 5 will just be O.K. and 3 will be butchers.
Dave knows ABSOLUTELY nothing about this and it’s honestly pretty astounding. There are a few state schools that have tuition at 200K and that doesn’t include fees. The only schools that are less than that are in Texas and they are $150. Anywhere you go out of state, you pay at least $320, and most private schools are closer to $400. This guy is from Utah, so the cheapest you can get is 200k at the university of Utah, which is very difficult to get into as a while male. This guy has a wife and 2 kids, so combine that with tuition and this guys estimate is spot on, if not a little low. Plus Dave, there is no such thing as two year dental school. Facepalm. (There are Dental Therapists now, but that’s not what we’re talking about here.) Normally I really like Dave Ramsey, but you gotta educate yourself on this stuff if you’re going to give advice. Dental school is more expensive than medical and the two are not as equivalent as most people think. Source: first year dental student at Creighton, lived in Utah for undergrad and applied to 12 schools.
Sorry Dave, but you are way off with your advice and knowledge regarding dental school. Nothing in dentistry is cheap, including dental school tuition. The average price of 4 years of tuition and fees is $400k+. If you go to NYU, Tufts, USC, University of Pacific and others, expect to pay $500-600k by the time you graduate. Dental schools are 4 year programs, and the loans you take out start to accrue interest from the day you take them out. Jordan - look into HPSP. The Army, Navy and Air Force offer 2, 3, and 4 year programs that cover your cost of tuition and fees, plus they provide you with $2,200/month as a living stipend while in school. You owe one year of service for each year of the scholarship. NHSC is another program you can look at.
doctorly.org/cost-vs-reward-of-a-dental-school-education/ "Average debt for all dental school graduates who owed money was $247,227: public school graduates ($216,437) and private school graduates ($289,897)."
@@insanemustaine111 You've got plenty of students on full scholarships and some parents paying all of their tuition. This brings the average debt load down. The average is over $400-500k now
Dave, you need to look into the costs of dental/medical school..also you need to look at salaries too. He's always off when it comes to these career paths.
Dental school is a 4 year program. Most dental schools cost well over $70K each year, 70k x 4 yrs = 280K, and virtually no scholarships. While $450k is on expensive side, it will costs 300k just about everywhere. And Mid-career average income is about 200k.
I'm retired dentist that did a career in public health, working with new dental graduates over a period of 23 years. Can someone spend $450,000 on a dental education? Absolutely! However, I' ve also worked with many who spent far less. The costs vary widely depending on where you choose to go to school. Sometimes it pays to move to a different state, work a year and establish residency in that state for the lower tuition. On a separate note, I noticed through the years that new graduates tended to live higher lifestyles than they used to back in my day, I saw many new graduates coming out of s hool with more expensive toys and cars than I had after 20 years of practice, all complaining about how much they had to borrow to get through school.
You must be in a cheaper part of the country.... My state only has one school and with the instate tuition I have to pay ~90k a year living on bare essentials (cheapest rent in a terrible area, before paid car and groceries) I do not go out as that is an expense I cannot afford. Meaning after living this lifestyle for 4 years I will get out of school with 360k debt aside from my Military friends I will have the cheapest cost.
This is literally the first time in my life I’ve ever commented on a UA-cam video because this made me SO IRATE! Dave Ramsey should really do his research before treating other people this way. I was just looking at Detroit Mercy’s program last night and it’s well over $400k. Why not just focus on giving advice rather than arguing with the caller?? I couldn’t even make it through the first half of this video. Wow.
Agreed. Dave disgraced himself here and exposed himself as one of the most clueless individuals trying to give advice. Sounds like an old geezer telling youngsters that one can earn an honest living with home ownership by working at a gas station.
Salmaan that tells me two thing, either you didn’t do your research and apply to more school like you should have, or missed the dead lines for apps. No excuses. Otherwise wait a year, apply again next year, but don’t fall in their trap!!! Schools like USC are simply milking it on uneducated students. Simply.
Dave, what you're not realizing is that MD's and DO's can outsource their clinical education to hospitals. The dental profession does not have this option, and all of the training is done under the roof of the school - this drives tuition through the roof. However, state funded schools are generally in the 200k range - at least here in Texas. Spots are limited, making it very competitive to get a spot at a state school. I was in a similar situation to him last year. I could have went to a 400k+ out of state school, but I was not accepted into an in state program. If I were to get into my #1 choice, I would be able to live at home and go to school, lowering the cost form ~230k to ~120k over four years. Instead of going to the expensive out of state private schools with lower acceptance standards, I opted to spend ~15k for a 1 year specialized Master's Degree. Here I am a year later with acceptance letters from 2 of the 3 in state Texas schools! One of which was my local choice. 450k for a dental education will put you in practice situations where putting your patients first will be extremely difficult. If the caller keeps up with this video, or if anyone else has questions about dental schools, please message me. I'm glad to help in whatever way I can.
Any advice for out-of-state applicants that want to get accepted to a Dental school in Texas? Admissions can be pretty brutal if you aren't a Texas resident Resident
tito5581 The only advice I can give you is that if your GPA is less than a 3.9 and DAT is less than a 23, don’t bother. Out of state is ridiculously competitive.
ok, some misinformation here. dental school takes 4 years to complete. There is only one program that lets you finish in 3 years in US. and tuition costs are around 300k in US and rising every year . In canada tuition is way cheaper but extremely difficult to get in. Dentistry is getting saturated just like other health care professions and income is declining. Taking out a 450k loan to do dentistry is insane! its just not worth it.
UCLA school of dentistry is $70,000/year. That's $280K for 4 years. If they debt snowball their student loan with gazelle intensity, it can get paid off within two years, no problem.
It's interesting to watch a video where someone who is so sure of himself all of the time (Dave) is just completely wrong. I have never understood people like Dave who go through life so sure of themselves. They always believe they are right. In this case Dave I think you are just wrong. Dental school is that expensive.
Just to add some insight, I'm projected to graduate with about $180,000 in debt from dental school (I'm in my second year currently) and I'm definitely on the low end of the scale. I don't think Dave is calculating in the cost of living that most students must take out money for. Many students take out money for rent (I do as well) along with food, gas, etc. I am fortunate to have some relief through scholarships (albeit small). But tuition and fees are not the end of the story. Depending on the town, you'll need to at least double school associated costs to get a grand total of your yearly debt load.
First off, dentists are doctors. Dave's comment about it taking 1.5 years is ignorant. Not only is it expensive, like getting an MD, it is hard to get into dental school. It is something you need to.commit to full time. No company is going to pay for dental school because working while in the program is near impossible. Military? He is 31 and making a decent salary, why the heck would he even consider it? Especially with a family. If he were 25 and no kids, then it could have been a viable option. Honestly, the guy can look into grad school and find somehing more realistic. He can stay in the science field and make a good income with a Masters.
anastasiabeaverhaus9 100% sound advice. Plus he may be 65 before paying that debt off. Having a mortgage, transportation costs, household/family expenses, saving for retirement etc prevents you from paying down school debt any sooner......even if u make 150-200k. On top of that you have to deal with John Q Public complaining about crown fitment/ occlusion (even with quality doc using latest computer technology) for ex. Factor in that you are working in that confined space over the years which affects your neck and back, stress to make payroll and staffing a good team. Even if u work for a group or assoc of a private doc - it's usually about production production production and longer hours to make more money to try and get ahead. There are other stresses like working hard at keeping clean with the state board obviously/wisely, rising costs of dental materials/equipment, lab, malpractice ins, rent, salaries and extreme competition and burn out. But, for some it can be a rewarding career but think it through!
I am in dental school at my state school and there is no way I would choose dentistry if I had to go out-of-state. I am looking at about $220,000 (still too much) when I am done. $450,000 is outrageous.
Dave Ramsey fan AND dental student here, Dave is SO WRONG. I applied to 22 schools with competitive stats, and the CHEAPEST school I was accepted to is 350k. All others were 500+
Just graduated dental school this year. I owe $230K; I'm lucky and my state dental school tuition is roughly $30K/year. But I know plenty of people who owe $450K. Plenty of schools charge $60K+ per year for tuition, then another $5-10K/year for supplies, instruments, etc. Just depends where you go. And it is four years, Dave. Most cases, you can't just "shop" around. You pretty much go wherever accepts you. You can't be too picky. Sure, apply to the cheaper schools, but if you don't live in that state, it's going to be harder. Applying isn't cheap either! Dave is most definitely way off here. IMO - I would say do it. Dentistry is the best profession ever. Just consider the financial stress it puts on your family because I had a few classmates who were in their 30s who already had families going into dental school as well -- it's hard providing for a whole family on student loans.
Average debt for all dental school graduates who owed money was $247,227: public school graduates ($216,437) and private school graduates ($289,897). doctorly.org/cost-vs-reward-of-a-dental-school-education/
Debt is not the same as cost. I'm sure most dental students don't pay for 100% of everything with loans. Also this average likely factors in scholarships (some military ones can cover your entire cost of education) and the several inexpensive schools that are considerably cheaper than a typical DDS education
Med or dental schools annual tuition is 30-70k depending on the school. I don't see why 250k in total cost is unreasonable. Just budget and be reasonable with financial expenses.
Few schools offer 30k tuition unless it's your state school. Most options will be 50k+ tuition. Dental schools also typically have very high fees in addition to tuition. Factoring in fees and cost of living, you're easily looking at 90k+/year for total cost of attendance.
WVU, where I went to school, has a 3-4 year dental program. Average tuition is $70,000/year as of this year, and WVU isn't exactly a "world class" dental school. So even if you go to a cheaper/lesser known college for it, you are still looking at $250-300k when you are done + interest on the loans. Dave sometimes you are way off and need to do a bit more research on what you are talking about. I'm sure you could go to some local college or somewhere cheap, but then you have to worry about not finding a job right away based on prestige of your degree, which a lot of people in the dental/medical field will tell you is somewhat important.
Tuition went up this year for my 'average school'... its 85k (ish) add in living expenses at the poverty level of 1k/month. Thats roughly 100k a year not counting interest.
To be a dentist.. at University of Missouri - Kansas City. It costs about 204K for instate tuition for the 4 years. That’s just the tuition. Not including cost of living. UMKC is one of the cheapest dental schools. Not the cheapest. One of them. I’m looking at a private school and it cost 80K a year. Times 4 you are at 320K. Not including loans to live off of. Dave I like you. But sometimes you have to know that it does cost. Especially if you go out of state.
Plus this guy has two kids and is LDS (he mentioned going on a mission) so his wife is probably a stay at home mom so he's got to borrow enough to support them too.
Well the good news there are only 66 Dental Schools in the U.S. so that means there is a far less number than lawyers. I don’t want Dentists to end up like lawyers where they take out $150,000 debt and no job prospects.
dave is wrong on this one. i have an ex that is in dental school and when she is done she'll be over 400k in debt, dental school is the most expensive professional degree program. even more expensive than med school
450k is not the problem......the problem is that there are too many dentist already, most of them are not making more than 120k a year, so do the math!
toti35 you must broke and stupid aka “normal” to not think $450k isn’t the issue. Of course it’s the issue. $450k is a very unjustified number. I would never sign that loan agreement
Dave buddy. Proverbs 22:26 Do not be among those who give pledges, Among those who become guarantors for debts. This man needs to save and find a cheaper alternative if you say he can.
Bummer, Dave is unfortunately wrong on a number of points during this :( Dental school takes 4 years after undergrad Dave. We don't all get the pick of which dental school we want to attend. The cheap ones are few.
This guy's drug use history (esp if he sold drugs) would very possibly disqualify him from any military program in dentistry - since Dave always seems to think the Military is the magic solution to getting through school debt free. He would also need to have a very high GPA and solid academic record to get into dentistry school. And his estimate of 450K is probably about right for total costs, including tuition, books, living expenses, and interest that accumulates from day 1.
450k you could buy 1.2 million apartment building, don't take any money and pay double payment, and in 10 years, you would have it paid off. and that could be 70k a year every year for life.
@@BHanson41z it's a secured loan. If the asset is worth 1.2M you would need around $60k-120k down payment. 5-10% down. Even if it is 20% down it's $240k.
Dave Ramsey has outdated stats… Dental school is even more expensive than medical school and their students have about 30% more debt… average medical school graduates with $200k-300k debt and the average dental graduate has $300-$400k debt.
That whole thing about dental school sounded wrong to me, and it sounds like other commenters are backing that up. Sorry, Dave. I think you blew it on this one.
Dave is way off here. This guy is from Utah and wont be able to get in state tuition to one of the less expensive schools. Not only that but dental school is 4 years not 2 Dave. If he wants to go to school and pay for it with loans, he is looking at 400k.
The cost estimation is correct. To make things worse is the closed market the schools have created. Dave wouldn't be wrong to suggest shopping for cheaper schools were this an undergraduate university, but dental schools tend to protect their markets in so much that you don't get the luxury of simply choosing to attend a cheaper school. For example, LSU in New Orleans tuition hovers around $25k, but fees will add another $25-30k. So that's $50k per year. Not bad with the national average. Add in cost of living in New Orleans and that bumps up another $10-15k minimum per year. So at $65k for 4 years would get to around $260k. Much lower than the $450k mentioned. The problem is, an applicant from out of state is far less likely to be accepted. When I was applying, LSU accepted 55 Louisiana residents, 5 Arkansas residents, and reserved 5 slots for at large bids. To be accepted for an at large bid, an applicant had to massively out-compete the local applicants. A poor system that limits supply and wards off competition in an open market
The reason too that dental school is even more than medical school is because you have to pay for your residency if you’re going to be a dentist. If you are an MD you are paid during residency. Dentists and orthodontists have to pay for residency. So the tuition of dental school plus residency will at least be almost $400,000. And that’s fairly cheap.
I went to the most affordable dental school in my state and graduated with 220,000$ in debt including undergraduate loans. It’s not unheard of to pay upwards up 500k for private schools like NYU
Michelle Lee Um... no. At least not nowadays. Each year in private school is about 100k with room board books tuition etc. Plus 50k random fees. Public schools about half of that. By the end of dental school, it's about 500k.
he is right. "Average debt for all dental school graduates who owed money was $247,227: public school graduates ($216,437) and private school graduates ($289,897)." doctorly.org/cost-vs-reward-of-a-dental-school-education/
I was $230k in debt and went to a public university (UCLA) and graduated 8 years ago with about $60k in scholarships and grants. Private schools like USC will leave you $350k in debt. Dave is way off here, he also thought programs can be 2 years...wrong again. Almost all but two programs are 4 years
Yep $450k is accurate but Dave is right that only some schools charge that. However, it's not like buying a car where you get to pick, rather, they pick you and you're only options might be one of those expensive schools. Also, he was wrong about the timeline, 2 or 2.5 years lol.
Caller: I want to go to Dentist school and be a Dentist to follow my dream Dave: Join the military I hope you went through with it. You can pay it off in 4 years wash, if not less, as long as you don’t increase your lifestyle. Also, joining the military is not the greatest advice man. Dude has kids and a wife. That’s advice for a single young person.
Dave, it does cost increasingly more to go to dental school... even more than medical. Why it does, I don't know. I graduated with a good 300k in student loans and that was 2009. I know there are schools that are cheaper, but I believe the guy.
it would be great if Dave or his staff would do a bit of research and address the discrepancies between what he says and what the folks here, with actual, real-life experiences, are saying. But that will never happen because Mr. "I'm worth $55 million" is ALWAYS right. WWJD?
Jesus certainly wouldn't disrespect Dave because he knows what he's talking about! He works with dentists he made that clear. I'll take Dave's advice over anyone of you!
Im a 29 year old male with a bachelors in accounting 3.1 GPA but never worked in accounting. What can I possibly do to get into dental school? I feel like I could never be competitive enough at this age.
You can become a dentist in Pakistan for 25000 dollars from best private institute. 4 years is the duration. Also Cuba is best choice for good quality cheap medical education.
Sure, then you can come back to the U.S. and flunk the boards and be made to take 2 years of dental school at full price to meet your regional board's demands... had 1 guy in my class who was an MD from Romania... they made you go to medical school and THEN specialize in dentistry... they plopped him right in the middle of our group...2 years for things he already learned... they will get you...one way or another.
It’s so expensive because they limit the amount of schools to limit the amount of professionals to keep their fees high….classic case of bottle necking
Dental school is not 1 1/2 to 2 years. I asked a dentist I had years ago who studied at OHSU in Portland and he said it was 4 1/2 years. I respect Dave, but he is definitely wrong sometimes. That's ok, nobody knows everything.
Dave a quick Google search will tell you dental school is four years...People Dave gives good advice for the most part but make sure to do thorough research on your own as well.
A lot of people in the comments seem to know how expensive dental school is, I don't know if they are right or wrong, let's say they are right, and you go to dental school for $450000, when you get out you will be at $-450000 with interest, so you have to work for years and years to be at $0, the caller must really love the field, because at that price he would be better working at pretty much anything and with no debt he would get ahead financially.
Brian Y. Lol so you saying 450k debt will be paid off quickly by how living in your car? 450k debt is alot of money for some people. Freedom gets you ahead of life. I'd rather have savings than debt.
Watching this video made me want to cover my ears as now I can't trust a thing he says now. Do some research before you give some advice to others and blast him on youtube
Dave seems to be incapable of looking at something from a different angle and apply more than one dimension in building up a problem statement. He is a married guy with kids living in Utah. If he leaves the state to be a full time student he is easily paying that. If he stays near by where his family is you have to pay the asking rate. Also pledging oneself to a company is indentured service and it is illegal. The DSO shops are killing the profession, it’s ethics and morale of the dentists
![So You Want to Be a DENTIST [Ep. 40]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/0CFLTrPvwFY/mqdefault.jpg)
Unfortunately, the caller is correct. Dave is utterly wrong here. Average cost of attendance is 100k per YEAR--dental school is 4 years.
Eh, this video was kinda cringey. The caller was correct in his estimation on tuition.
Actually Dave is right, Dental school costs around $60k-$90k per year, at most it'll cost $380k before interest, which if you factor in interest for 4 years it'll be $400k after 4 years of interest, but most cost around $60k so around $240k before interest or around $260k after interest for 4 years
@David This!
Blake B I love Dave but he needs to do a bit more research on this. For public dental schools you’re lookin at about 300k. I’m a dental student at Midwestern-AZ (a private school) and I will come out with about 550k
Cade Nykamp I agree, he is really out of date on the dental school tuitions, especially with the cost of applications. I applied to nine schools and got into one school, a private school out of state in a big city. The tuition is $77K plus added fees which round to $90K per year. It’s really insulting to hear Dave talk about how ridiculous the number $450K is and claiming we’re not doing enough research. Not every applicant is lucky enough to have their pick in schools and selecting the least expensive school that’ll cost $200K. I’ve listened to a ton of videos where callers are calling in about their dental school debt with the correct price and Dave brushes them off as ridiculous. Dave’s advice would be much more helpful if he came to the reality of what dental schools cost right now and instead of talking with current dentists, who went to school maybe twenty years ago and the prices to go to school was significantly lower by more than half, he should talk to current dental students who are taking out the loans to pay for the $400K for school.
Caller was right, those loans have huge interest rates that start compounding on day one. Most of these students are going to be on REPAYE. I did a video called "Is Dental School Worth It". Short answer - financially, no.
I love Dave Ramsey but boy was he wrong on this subject. My son just applied to dental schools and the cheapest one was $400,000.
Please God tell me he didn’t take out loans for that
Go to instate, get a roomate. I am graduating with little less than 200k
@@BitterComments They are not talking about tuition. They are adding in "living expenses". A lot of these schools are the ones that will let in anyone, but charge a ton. They get the suckers. Tuition is not 400K. Maybe a few private schools. U Tennessee is 30K a year.
I graduated dental school with 320k in debt. This was 10 years ago. Dave is ignorant here.
did you spend half of it on drugs and partying?
If you where to take $320,000 and invest it getting 8.75% interest and let it compound you would have over a million dollars in two decades.
Viet PopLove you're nothing but a troll.
Chris Baker and live on what during this time? Remember also that it wasn't 320k I had it was 320k borrowed and only because I promised to become a dentist for it
Truth - Did you ever consider the military scholarship? You can graduate debt free from dental school and get a $2200/month stipend. You'll be making about $80-90k your first year and probably top out at about $110k at the end of four years. Debt free, making nearly $100k after dental school, an opportunity to serve your country, and primed to own your own practice by the time you're 30? Seems like an awesome opportunity to me.
Sadly $450 k is correct
I’m a dentist. It cost me about $400k with compounding interest.
At tufts maybe lol
Can confirm.
I would think it is dependent on which college you go to no? I mean my state-subsidized school Stonybrook dental says 25k per year for 4 years. Now that doesn't take into account rent, bills and food but it still would not be anywhere near 450k.
@@peterwloszek5472 Wow what a scam. No wonder dentist over charge for the work done. Shame on ADA. what a mob
Dental school is much more expensive than medical school, on average. It is the most expensive professional degree in the country.
Dave is actually incorrect this time. Dental School is a 4 year program, not 1.5-2 years. Also if you go out of state or to a private dental school it DOES in fact cost that much. It's about 100k a year and you accrue interest from Day 1.
goodmanbryan707 So stay in state and don't go private.
sigor2011 not all states have a dental school, and some states only have private schools. I was blessed enough to have options and chose my state school with a scholarship, not everyone is that fortunate. Average cost of attendance for instate students still averages around 75k, again with about 6.4% interest accruing from day 1. It's an expensive profession.
Easier said than done. There are only 63 dental schools in the country, and only 40-50% of applicants are accepted. Out of state applicants to public schools have roughly a 10% chance of being admitted
doctorly.org/cost-vs-reward-of-a-dental-school-education/
this says "Average debt for all dental school graduates who owed money was $247,227: public school graduates ($216,437) and private school graduates ($289,897)."
goodmanbryan707 yeah we know not all states have a dental school. That said, you MUST do the math and think, is it really worth ruining quite possibly the rest of your life by borrowing money for a piece of paper regardless of what it’s in? I personally don’t but to each their own.
Average dental school costs 400K, the caller was right
Dental school is 250k to 550k and its 4 years not 2 years. I am a dentist.
Wow
Weird that Dave doesn’t know dental school is 4 years? Hello they are doctors 🤷🏻♀️
@@trishaspencer9956 yeah, if it was a 2 year many people would of taken it for the wage
This video shows that Dave's advice is worth what the caller paid for his advice, nothing.
Dental school is 4 years long and almost every dental school costs more than the same school's med program. Don't claim to be an expert on something you have no idea about
after med residency just to work its about the same
Sorry Dave but dental school is anywhere from $350-$450k.
My retired dentist used to also teach dental school, and maintain his practice (for 40 years.) He said out of 10 students, 2 will make good dentists, 5 will just be O.K. and 3 will be butchers.
Dave knows ABSOLUTELY nothing about this and it’s honestly pretty astounding. There are a few state schools that have tuition at 200K and that doesn’t include fees. The only schools that are less than that are in Texas and they are $150. Anywhere you go out of state, you pay at least $320, and most private schools are closer to $400.
This guy is from Utah, so the cheapest you can get is 200k at the university of Utah, which is very difficult to get into as a while male.
This guy has a wife and 2 kids, so combine that with tuition and this guys estimate is spot on, if not a little low.
Plus Dave, there is no such thing as two year dental school. Facepalm. (There are Dental Therapists now, but that’s not what we’re talking about here.)
Normally I really like Dave Ramsey, but you gotta educate yourself on this stuff if you’re going to give advice. Dental school is more expensive than medical and the two are not as equivalent as most people think.
Source: first year dental student at Creighton, lived in Utah for undergrad and applied to 12 schools.
Dave needs to do more research sadly... plus you don’t “shop for dental schools” they choose you and you don’t have a choice what you pay.
DrewJohns1234567890 hahaha “shop around”......If only the grades were good enough for such options 😜
@@agustino42491 A little late on the response haha I just have one more year and I’ll graduate from dental school!
That’s what’s so funny about this whole dental school thing. I’ve never seen so many people (including me) beg someone to pay em.
I realize it's kinda randomly asking but does anyone know of a good website to watch newly released tv shows online?
lol 2 years???? its 4 years dave.
Yep
Sorry Dave, but you are way off with your advice and knowledge regarding dental school. Nothing in dentistry is cheap, including dental school tuition. The average price of 4 years of tuition and fees is $400k+. If you go to NYU, Tufts, USC, University of Pacific and others, expect to pay $500-600k by the time you graduate.
Dental schools are 4 year programs, and the loans you take out start to accrue interest from the day you take them out.
Jordan - look into HPSP. The Army, Navy and Air Force offer 2, 3, and 4 year programs that cover your cost of tuition and fees, plus they provide you with $2,200/month as a living stipend while in school. You owe one year of service for each year of the scholarship. NHSC is another program you can look at.
doctorly.org/cost-vs-reward-of-a-dental-school-education/ "Average debt for all dental school graduates who owed money was $247,227: public school graduates ($216,437) and private school graduates ($289,897)."
I can confirm this.
I’m a dentist that graduated almost 10 years ago, it cost me about $400k with compounding interest. I know of recent grads with $500k in debt.
@@insanemustaine111 You've got plenty of students on full scholarships and some parents paying all of their tuition. This brings the average debt load down. The average is over $400-500k now
Dave, you need to look into the costs of dental/medical school..also you need to look at salaries too. He's always off when it comes to these career paths.
Fortunate to get accepted in to an In-state dental school. Graduated with ~190K in student loans..and that was on the low end of my class!
Sir how much do you earn now as a dentist? Plz reply. Thanks a lot.
Dental school is a 4 year program. Most dental schools cost well over $70K each year, 70k x 4 yrs = 280K, and virtually no scholarships. While $450k is on expensive side, it will costs 300k just about everywhere. And Mid-career average income is about 200k.
Dave is so out of date on his understanding of the costs of medical school/dental school.
I'm retired dentist that did a career in public health, working with new dental graduates over a period of 23 years. Can someone spend $450,000 on a dental education? Absolutely! However, I' ve also worked with many who spent far less. The costs vary widely depending on where you choose to go to school. Sometimes it pays to move to a different state, work a year and establish residency in that state for the lower tuition. On a separate note, I noticed through the years that new graduates tended to live higher lifestyles than they used to back in my day, I saw many new graduates coming out of s hool with more expensive toys and cars than I had after 20 years of practice, all complaining about how much they had to borrow to get through school.
You must be in a cheaper part of the country.... My state only has one school and with the instate tuition I have to pay ~90k a year living on bare essentials (cheapest rent in a terrible area, before paid car and groceries) I do not go out as that is an expense I cannot afford. Meaning after living this lifestyle for 4 years I will get out of school with 360k debt aside from my Military friends I will have the cheapest cost.
This is literally the first time in my life I’ve ever commented on a UA-cam video because this made me SO IRATE! Dave Ramsey should really do his research before treating other people this way. I was just looking at Detroit Mercy’s program last night and it’s well over $400k. Why not just focus on giving advice rather than arguing with the caller?? I couldn’t even make it through the first half of this video. Wow.
Agreed. Dave disgraced himself here and exposed himself as one of the most clueless individuals trying to give advice. Sounds like an old geezer telling youngsters that one can earn an honest living with home ownership by working at a gas station.
And you don’t know what you’re talking about
dave is dead ass wrong here. My sister is in debt 390k for four years at USC Dental school.
Her first mistake was to go to USC! One of the Most overpriced (highway robbery) schools in the nation.
@@arymonem what if thats the only school she got accepted into?
Salmaan that tells me two thing, either you didn’t do your research and apply to more school like you should have, or missed the dead lines for apps. No excuses. Otherwise wait a year, apply again next year, but don’t fall in their trap!!! Schools like USC are simply milking it on uneducated students. Simply.
Yes, DDS/DMD costs $300-400K in total depending on the geographics.
USC & NYU end up closer to $600k
Yup
Dave you just had a pastor call you and say his girlfriend was like 400,000 in debt for dental school and you did not tell him that.
You’re wrong, look at the numbers on the ADA.
Dave, what you're not realizing is that MD's and DO's can outsource their clinical education to hospitals. The dental profession does not have this option, and all of the training is done under the roof of the school - this drives tuition through the roof. However, state funded schools are generally in the 200k range - at least here in Texas. Spots are limited, making it very competitive to get a spot at a state school.
I was in a similar situation to him last year. I could have went to a 400k+ out of state school, but I was not accepted into an in state program. If I were to get into my #1 choice, I would be able to live at home and go to school, lowering the cost form ~230k to ~120k over four years. Instead of going to the expensive out of state private schools with lower acceptance standards, I opted to spend ~15k for a 1 year specialized Master's Degree. Here I am a year later with acceptance letters from 2 of the 3 in state Texas schools! One of which was my local choice.
450k for a dental education will put you in practice situations where putting your patients first will be extremely difficult. If the caller keeps up with this video, or if anyone else has questions about dental schools, please message me. I'm glad to help in whatever way I can.
Any advice for out-of-state applicants that want to get accepted to a Dental school in Texas? Admissions can be pretty brutal if you aren't a Texas resident Resident
tito5581 The only advice I can give you is that if your GPA is less than a 3.9 and DAT is less than a 23, don’t bother. Out of state is ridiculously competitive.
ok, some misinformation here. dental school takes 4 years to complete. There is only one program that lets you finish in 3 years in US. and tuition costs are around 300k in US and rising every year . In canada tuition is way cheaper but extremely difficult to get in. Dentistry is getting saturated just like other health care professions and income is declining. Taking out a 450k loan to do dentistry is insane! its just not worth it.
And they have a very high suicide rate.
UCLA school of dentistry is $70,000/year. That's $280K for 4 years. If they debt snowball their student loan with gazelle intensity, it can get paid off within two years, no problem.
He talks like he knows, and he does it so confidently.
It's interesting to watch a video where someone who is so sure of himself all of the time (Dave) is just completely wrong. I have never understood people like Dave who go through life so sure of themselves. They always believe they are right. In this case Dave I think you are just wrong. Dental school is that expensive.
Just to add some insight, I'm projected to graduate with about $180,000 in debt from dental school (I'm in my second year currently) and I'm definitely on the low end of the scale. I don't think Dave is calculating in the cost of living that most students must take out money for. Many students take out money for rent (I do as well) along with food, gas, etc. I am fortunate to have some relief through scholarships (albeit small). But tuition and fees are not the end of the story. Depending on the town, you'll need to at least double school associated costs to get a grand total of your yearly debt load.
2020 now. Dental school now cost at the lowest at $250k and highest at $620k (NYU, USC.)
Wow… that’s insane!
Sorry Dave but you are very wrong here- it's four years and nearly 450k for it all
First off, dentists are doctors. Dave's comment about it taking 1.5 years is ignorant. Not only is it expensive, like getting an MD, it is hard to get into dental school. It is something you need to.commit to full time. No company is going to pay for dental school because working while in the program is near impossible. Military? He is 31 and making a decent salary, why the heck would he even consider it? Especially with a family. If he were 25 and no kids, then it could have been a viable option. Honestly, the guy can look into grad school and find somehing more realistic. He can stay in the science field and make a good income with a Masters.
anastasiabeaverhaus9 100% sound advice. Plus he may be 65 before paying that debt off. Having a mortgage, transportation costs, household/family expenses, saving for retirement etc prevents you from paying down school debt any sooner......even if u make 150-200k. On top of that you have to deal with John Q Public complaining about crown fitment/ occlusion (even with quality doc using latest computer technology) for ex. Factor in that you are working in that confined space over the years which affects your neck and back, stress to make payroll and staffing a good team. Even if u work for a group or assoc of a private doc - it's usually about production production production and longer hours to make more money to try and get ahead. There are other stresses like working hard at keeping clean with the state board obviously/wisely, rising costs of dental materials/equipment, lab, malpractice ins, rent, salaries and extreme competition and burn out. But, for some it can be a rewarding career but think it through!
THANKS YOU.....DENTIST ARE DOCTORS!!!
Let the man do what he wants and military you will working as a dentist
Dave's right. My dentist studied at Walmart, where all Dentists get their degrees.
Bucky Barnes stupidly funny🤣
Bucky Barnes amen!
That’s where I got mine. I’m doing just fine
@@enigma6451 yeah😳😂😂😂😂😂
😂
I am in dental school at my state school and there is no way I would choose dentistry if I had to go out-of-state. I am looking at about $220,000 (still too much) when I am done. $450,000 is outrageous.
Thats kind of crazy to me that you even had the choice. You must have done really well on your DAT
Dave Ramsey fan AND dental student here, Dave is SO WRONG. I applied to 22 schools with competitive stats, and the CHEAPEST school I was accepted to is 350k. All others were 500+
Now I know why dentists are such rip-offs. Ridiculously expensive. Have to pay off that debt and still live the high life.
Just graduated dental school this year. I owe $230K; I'm lucky and my state dental school tuition is roughly $30K/year. But I know plenty of people who owe $450K. Plenty of schools charge $60K+ per year for tuition, then another $5-10K/year for supplies, instruments, etc. Just depends where you go. And it is four years, Dave. Most cases, you can't just "shop" around. You pretty much go wherever accepts you. You can't be too picky. Sure, apply to the cheaper schools, but if you don't live in that state, it's going to be harder. Applying isn't cheap either! Dave is most definitely way off here.
IMO - I would say do it. Dentistry is the best profession ever. Just consider the financial stress it puts on your family because I had a few classmates who were in their 30s who already had families going into dental school as well -- it's hard providing for a whole family on student loans.
You’re just an Internet troll
You're wrong Dave. Very wrong.
Average debt for all dental school graduates who owed money was $247,227: public school graduates ($216,437) and private school graduates ($289,897). doctorly.org/cost-vs-reward-of-a-dental-school-education/
Debt is not the same as cost. I'm sure most dental students don't pay for 100% of everything with loans. Also this average likely factors in scholarships (some military ones can cover your entire cost of education) and the several inexpensive schools that are considerably cheaper than a typical DDS education
Med or dental schools annual tuition is 30-70k depending on the school. I don't see why 250k in total cost is unreasonable. Just budget and be reasonable with financial expenses.
Few schools offer 30k tuition unless it's your state school. Most options will be 50k+ tuition. Dental schools also typically have very high fees in addition to tuition. Factoring in fees and cost of living, you're easily looking at 90k+/year for total cost of attendance.
Man Dave...back at it again with that mute button
Dave is a know it all.
In this occasion, I disagree with Dave. Med/pharm/dentist schools are expensive & at least 4years.
4 years dude. After a bachelors degree too. Also, it’s INCREDIBLY difficult to get into dental school, you go to whatever school will have you.
WVU, where I went to school, has a 3-4 year dental program. Average tuition is $70,000/year as of this year, and WVU isn't exactly a "world class" dental school. So even if you go to a cheaper/lesser known college for it, you are still looking at $250-300k when you are done + interest on the loans. Dave sometimes you are way off and need to do a bit more research on what you are talking about. I'm sure you could go to some local college or somewhere cheap, but then you have to worry about not finding a job right away based on prestige of your degree, which a lot of people in the dental/medical field will tell you is somewhat important.
um, thier published rates are 17000 a semester so you are way off....
Tuition went up this year for my 'average school'... its 85k (ish) add in living expenses at the poverty level of 1k/month. Thats roughly 100k a year not counting interest.
the tuition is outrageous and so are the salaries. i'm sure insurance companies have a hand in both.
2 years to become a dentist? Dental school costs more than medical school due to lab costs.
Half a million sounds about right. MDs don't need instruments. I really wish Dave didn't react the way he did without knowing
True.
Dave, you are unfortunately wrong.
Dave Ramsey you are totally wrong, It does cost upwards of $400,000 for dental schools in the states....
Granted, Tennessee
In state tuition is only 30k/yr. But out of state is 70k/yr, excluding fees and COA. Sorry Dave, study up.
To be a dentist.. at University of Missouri - Kansas City. It costs about 204K for instate tuition for the 4 years. That’s just the tuition.
Not including cost of living. UMKC is one of the cheapest dental schools. Not the cheapest. One of them. I’m looking at a private school and it cost 80K a year. Times 4 you are at 320K. Not including loans to live off of.
Dave I like you. But sometimes you have to know that it does cost. Especially if you go out of state.
Plus this guy has two kids and is LDS (he mentioned going on a mission) so his wife is probably a stay at home mom so he's got to borrow enough to support them too.
Well the good news there are only 66 Dental Schools in the U.S. so that means there is a far less number than lawyers. I don’t want Dentists to end up like lawyers where they take out $150,000 debt and no job prospects.
Dave got some bad info 😂 it really is THAT expensive!
Average student debt for dentists in 2016 was $260k. I personally graduated with $300k in loans, that was 5 years ago.
mickeyt107 I hate your life for you. That’s such a disgusting amount 🤢
Mike Nelson Ask him how much he makes? Assuming he's practicing, his debt is probably already paid off.
Dave has no idea what he is talking about. totally out of his element and giving a hard opinion. stop idolizing this dude.
dave is wrong on this one. i have an ex that is in dental school and when she is done she'll be over 400k in debt, dental school is the most expensive professional degree program. even more expensive than med school
450k is not the problem......the problem is that there are too many dentist already, most of them are not making more than 120k a year, so do the math!
toti35 you must broke and stupid aka “normal” to not think $450k isn’t the issue. Of course it’s the issue. $450k is a very unjustified number. I would never sign that loan agreement
well....dentists used to make 350k to 450k a year but no any more! If you would be making 350k a year, who cares about 450k in tuition?!
most dentists i know pull 250k+ and 1 mil if they own their own practice
tyra brown that's a big if though.
Mike Nelson that is indeed true but it's possible, just need the right mindset/determination
Dave buddy. Proverbs 22:26
Do not be among those who give pledges,
Among those who become guarantors for debts.
This man needs to save and find a cheaper alternative if you say he can.
Bummer, Dave is unfortunately wrong on a number of points during this :( Dental school takes 4 years after undergrad Dave. We don't all get the pick of which dental school we want to attend. The cheap ones are few.
Dave Ramsey is wrong! It costs $450,000+
Just get a small loan of a million dollars from Dave I'm sure he'll love to help it's the kind of guy he is.
This guy's drug use history (esp if he sold drugs) would very possibly disqualify him from any military program in dentistry - since Dave always seems to think the Military is the magic solution to getting through school debt free.
He would also need to have a very high GPA and solid academic record to get into dentistry school. And his estimate of 450K is probably about right for total costs, including tuition, books, living expenses, and interest that accumulates from day 1.
Buy some real estate with that money and you'll never have to work again!!
Josef how is that?
450k you could buy 1.2 million apartment building, don't take any money and pay double payment, and in 10 years, you would have it paid off. and that could be 70k a year every year for life.
Exactly. I can make 1 million if someone lent me 1 billion!!!!! Lol, the issue is not how much you can make ... its who will lend it to you.
@@BHanson41z it's a secured loan. If the asset is worth 1.2M you would need around $60k-120k down payment. 5-10% down. Even if it is 20% down it's $240k.
Dave Ramsey has outdated stats… Dental school is even more expensive than medical school and their students have about 30% more debt… average medical school graduates with $200k-300k debt and the average dental graduate has $300-$400k debt.
That whole thing about dental school sounded wrong to me, and it sounds like other commenters are backing that up. Sorry, Dave. I think you blew it on this one.
450k to be a dentist, wow that's insane.
Dave is way off here. This guy is from Utah and wont be able to get in state tuition to one of the less expensive schools. Not only that but dental school is 4 years not 2 Dave. If he wants to go to school and pay for it with loans, he is looking at 400k.
Maybe it's 450k if you have to pay for the gold that goes in people's teeth out of your own pocket...
Ed Herrera Sadly I hear you only do a couple of those in school.
People in the comments are spot on
The cost estimation is correct. To make things worse is the closed market the schools have created. Dave wouldn't be wrong to suggest shopping for cheaper schools were this an undergraduate university, but dental schools tend to protect their markets in so much that you don't get the luxury of simply choosing to attend a cheaper school. For example, LSU in New Orleans tuition hovers around $25k, but fees will add another $25-30k. So that's $50k per year. Not bad with the national average. Add in cost of living in New Orleans and that bumps up another $10-15k minimum per year. So at $65k for 4 years would get to around $260k. Much lower than the $450k mentioned. The problem is, an applicant from out of state is far less likely to be accepted. When I was applying, LSU accepted 55 Louisiana residents, 5 Arkansas residents, and reserved 5 slots for at large bids. To be accepted for an at large bid, an applicant had to massively out-compete the local applicants. A poor system that limits supply and wards off competition in an open market
The reason too that dental school is even more than medical school is because you have to pay for your residency if you’re going to be a dentist. If you are an MD you are paid during residency. Dentists and orthodontists have to pay for residency. So the tuition of dental school plus residency will at least be almost $400,000. And that’s fairly cheap.
I went to the most affordable dental school in my state and graduated with 220,000$ in debt including undergraduate loans. It’s not unheard of to pay upwards up 500k for private schools like NYU
Caller is correct. especially when you are accounting for the amount of money you are not making because you are studying.
dave is off.... MD need at least 300k... can a dentist tell us how much it cost?
rebeccawcleung I asked my dentist before how much it costs from start to finish and he said around $220,000.
Michelle Lee Um... no. At least not nowadays. Each year in private school is about 100k with room board books tuition etc. Plus 50k random fees. Public schools about half of that.
By the end of dental school, it's about 500k.
he is right. "Average debt for all dental school graduates who owed money was $247,227: public school graduates ($216,437) and private school graduates ($289,897)." doctorly.org/cost-vs-reward-of-a-dental-school-education/
I was $230k in debt and went to a public university (UCLA) and graduated 8 years ago with about $60k in scholarships and grants. Private schools like USC will leave you $350k in debt. Dave is way off here, he also thought programs can be 2 years...wrong again. Almost all but two programs are 4 years
350+ public or 350+ for private.
Yep $450k is accurate but Dave is right that only some schools charge that. However, it's not like buying a car where you get to pick, rather, they pick you and you're only options might be one of those expensive schools. Also, he was wrong about the timeline, 2 or 2.5 years lol.
I hate it when Dave is arrogant when he In fact really has no clue what he’s talking about.
NYU Dental School is ~ 92k a year now, so total for 4 years is over 360k
Why this person is giving an opinion about something that he doesn't know.
It doesn't matter If Dave is off on this, still too much money for any medical/dental career. You better off changing your dreams!
When you end up in pain. Don't go to the hospital and dentist :)
@@kevinpham3087 😂😂👏👏👏👍
Caller: I want to go to Dentist school and be a Dentist to follow my dream
Dave: Join the military
I hope you went through with it. You can pay it off in 4 years wash, if not less, as long as you don’t increase your lifestyle. Also, joining the military is not the greatest advice man. Dude has kids and a wife. That’s advice for a single young person.
Dave, it does cost increasingly more to go to dental school... even more than medical. Why it does, I don't know. I graduated with a good 300k in student loans and that was 2009. I know there are schools that are cheaper, but I believe the guy.
Student loan > drug addict
it would be great if Dave or his staff would do a bit of research and address the discrepancies between what he says and what the folks here, with actual, real-life experiences, are saying. But that will never happen because Mr. "I'm worth $55 million" is ALWAYS right. WWJD?
Jesus certainly wouldn't disrespect Dave because he knows what he's talking about! He works with dentists he made that clear. I'll take Dave's advice over anyone of you!
Im a 29 year old male with a bachelors in accounting 3.1 GPA but never worked in accounting. What can I possibly do to get into dental school? I feel like I could never be competitive enough at this age.
You work with old dentists probably. Yes dental school is that expensive and can be even more depending on the school. Do your research Dave!
Out of state does! Schools are a business now they don't take you in state to charge you double tuition. Ask me how I know.
You can become a dentist in Pakistan for 25000 dollars from best private institute. 4 years is the duration. Also Cuba is best choice for good quality cheap medical education.
I definitely recommend Cuba. They have excellent doctors. Pakistan...Don't know much about that.
But then you have to live in Pakistan or Cuba. lol.
sammies naw, the residency is in the states.
We spend Trillions on Defense. Yet, dental school AND dental care are out of reach for many in the middle class.
Sure, then you can come back to the U.S. and flunk the boards and be made to take 2 years of dental school at full price to meet your regional board's demands... had 1 guy in my class who was an MD from Romania... they made you go to medical school and THEN specialize in dentistry... they plopped him right in the middle of our group...2 years for things he already learned... they will get you...one way or another.
It’s so expensive because they limit the amount of schools to limit the amount of professionals to keep their fees high….classic case of bottle necking
Why should it cost $450K to go to ANY school?
Dental school is not 1 1/2 to 2 years. I asked a dentist I had years ago who studied at OHSU in Portland and he said it was 4 1/2 years. I respect Dave, but he is definitely wrong sometimes. That's ok, nobody knows everything.
dude.. its 500k minimum. Dave doesnt know what is going on.
Yah... Dave is off by a lot. I can easily name multiple dentils schools that cost 400k and a few that are over 500k
Dave a quick Google search will tell you dental school is four years...People Dave gives good advice for the most part but make sure to do thorough research on your own as well.
Gina H you don’t know what you’re talking about. Shhh...
A lot of people in the comments seem to know how expensive dental school is, I don't know if they are right or wrong, let's say they are right, and you go to dental school for $450000, when you get out you will be at $-450000 with interest, so you have to work for years and years to be at $0, the caller must really love the field, because at that price he would be better working at pretty much anything and with no debt he would get ahead financially.
m24 hel You should also look for their salaries. Dentists don't make sub 100k. The debt is usually paid quite quickly.
Brian Y. Lol so you saying 450k debt will be paid off quickly by how living in your car? 450k debt is alot of money for some people. Freedom gets you ahead of life. I'd rather have savings than debt.
Id rather have 500k in debt earning 200k a year than 100k in savings earning 50k a year.
Watching this video made me want to cover my ears as now I can't trust a thing he says now. Do some research before you give some advice to others and blast him on youtube
Texas A&M $160,000 not including cost of living
Dave seems to be incapable of looking at something from a different angle and apply more than one dimension in building up a problem statement. He is a married guy with kids living in Utah. If he leaves the state to be a full time student he is easily paying that. If he stays near by where his family is you have to pay the asking rate. Also pledging oneself to a company is indentured service and it is illegal. The DSO shops are killing the profession, it’s ethics and morale of the dentists