Thanks for showing more of the heavy metal process. Hagerty rebuilt a Chevy 283 and needed heavy metal, but there wasn't as much detail about how the weights are located and selected.
Memories of Gasoline Alley NJ 1970s where this type of scientific racing started. Petty used to get the 426 hemi done there Can't remember the name but we actually would go to the master of balancing at a rickety shop down a dirt road. Balancing was a BIG secret back then. It looks like your software leads the crank for oil etc. Nice He never gave up the secret formula he would scratch out on a napkin then ask what rpm your max was. Never let you watch him. It was so secret back then. Great vid JET
This might be an unconventional question. But, If you have a stock 305 chevy engine and you get oversized .030 pistons that are factory replacements. And you were to weigh them to see if they are the same weight as the original pistons. What is a like threshold of how much weight in grams, can they be off before you need to get the crank balanced. I know the old school shade tree answer and that it doesn't matter people have been building stock engines like that for 30 years. But what is your opinion on that?
If the crank has been balanced before and you changed pistons, then on a typical street engine it wouldn't need rebalancing unless the pistons are more than 10g difference in weight for each piston. If it's a race engine, then we will typically rebalance for anything more than 7 grams difference.
Excellent video, I always had questions about the bob weights and how it was determined how much they weighed and how they were set up on the crank, From what I saw it's not critical how they are oriented on the journals since you basically eye balled the journals being straight up and the weights being perpendicular to them.
Yes the bob weights are balanced so their rotational orientation on the journal is not critical, only the side to side position is across all the journals.
Yea they are just press fit. Being installed horizontally through the counterweight there’s very little chance for it to come out compared to if it was installed vertically into the counterweight.
I would like to have heard some if not all of what you fast fowarded through. Some of us don’t balance on a regular basis. I myself have never, but would like to if given the chance. Maybe I could have picked up some hints of what you were or weren’t doing based on past experiences.
One of my favorite things to do with balancing the rotating assembly along the Pistons and rods one thing I noticed that the Mercedes rotating assembly was perfectly balanced but they're pistons and rods were so out of bounce we never could believe it sometimes 10 g I guess they thought the rotating assembly would make up for it.
I know balancing to within tolerances is pefectly fine and going beyond that has diminishing returns BUT if you wanted something blueprinted, like an expensive bryant crank for a high rpm build how close to zero imbalance can you get?
It's hard to get zero imbalance due to the fact of not knowing exactly how much oil weight is clinging to the crank. The industry standard is typically 5 grams unless the rod throws have pockets instead of through holes that would hold more oil then we would increase that number.
All those counterweights and still needs Mallory, callies comp starts are the same way, , just not enough counterweight to do the job ,we use molnar 90% of the time or scat and I never need to add heavy metal,
Do you understand that bobweights need to be concentric so that the weight is evenly distributed around the journal. The way you do it, the weights should be added as vectors and it will still be wrong.
Some cranks are so case hard we have to grind off the hardness first before drill and ream ( Tried carbide tooling but chip prone and huge bucks ! resharp is a nightmare (
As for as the rotational position of the bobweights, it doesn’t matter. But side to side on the rod journal does. We have a wishbone spacer that slides over the journal and spaces the bob weights out from the cheek of the rod journal the same on each one. We just make sure to push the bob weight against that spacer and tighten it down.
@@Aladinscave it does make a difference where they are placed side to side on the journal. We tried eyeballing them in the center and then using our wishbone spacer method and noticed a 10-15 gram difference
It's always a good idea for it to be balanced just so that it will run smoothly. If it's out of balance then it can start knocking the bearings out of the engine if it's too far out of balance.
No, only because it is so close to the crank centerline and the keys don't weigh very much so they don't create a large enough effect on the crank balance.
I dont know how this machine calculate of the rod ( big end), 479,80 + 43,30 = 523,1 ( total) and then total 1046,2 ( 523,1 x 2 )Why double the rob ( big end) ? Plss Explain me
Sirs Great Video, thank you! Just a few quick questions if you don't mind? What rpm's do you spin your drill bits when drilling the crankshaft? Is there a brand and angle of drill bit that works best for you? - Thanks again! Subscribed
I am not sure of the rpms of the drill since the machine does not give a rpm readout. I just use a speed that seems to be cutting the best with that given size of drill bit. No certain brand, just what my local tooling supplier carries but they are cobalt. I have found the cobalt drills a lot better than a regular high speed steel especially on the nitrided cranks. Sometimes I do have to start with a carbide spotting drill to get through the top layer of nitriding and then the regular drill bits will cut better.
question . About 3 cylinder say a 1 liter ford ecoboost . Is there a way to balance those engine assembled ? Because if each part are balanced seperatly engine run unbalanced
Thanks for this, first one I've seen with this much detail. I was just a line mechanic - never did any real racing so I have dumb questions :) Does the machine tell you how far from crank centerline to drill for the heavy metal? One thing I don't get is that the crank now seems married to that piston/rod combo. Is there a different technique when you just balance the crank and you can use different rod/piston combos on that same crank? I assume the pistons and rods of each flavor are all equal weights to each other so I don't get why you have to be so specific on that part. Just make the bobweights all the same and the balance of the crank will be good. I must be missing something about the dynamics at play here.
Yes the machine tells exactly how far from the crank centerline to drill and install the heavy metal. Yes this rod and piston combo is married to this crank. If either part is changed then the crank is rebalanced. Even just changing from stock bore to .030 over pistons requires rebalancing the crank. There are variances in piston design between manufactures as well as rod design which lead to different weights. The crank manufactures balance/design the cranks to a specific bob weight that is in the average range for that engine combination (i.e. sbc 350 or sbf 302 etc)
Jealous of the new technology, I used a "jamb nut" similar to what you used to support the C/W while you drilled for the slug to simulate the mallory, spinning, relocating and respinning to find the happy spot to drill. It worked well, but computers eliminate the guesswork since my jamb nuts had less influence to the added weight being inboard of the actual intended slug location. What's your method of removing the trigger wheel without damaging it?
Yea this new technology definitely simplifies it a little and reduces the amount of time finding the right amount and location. We use a little heat on the reluctor wheel to reduce the press and then tap it with a deadblow and it comes right off.
@@pageracingengines thank you so much for replying. I have a client who wants to balance a new jeep car crankshaft. I have never balanced a crankshaft before. The client says he wants the balancing to be done at 6000 rpm since the car will run at that speed. What do I do? Also should I ask him to bring the pistons and the connecting rod as well?
@@wiser1147 You can't balance at the actual engine speed. 750rpms on the balancing machine is plenty high enough for majority of engines out there. You will need to know the weights on the rods, pistons, rings, rod bearings in order to get an accurate bob weight and unless you have a crank balancing machine you won't be able to balance the crankshaft yourself.
@@pageracingengines thanks for the reply. I do have a dynamic balancing machine will that be sufficient? I'm sorry I don't know the difference between crankshaft balancing machine and dynamic balancing machine. Also if I need to remove weight can I do so make by drilling a hole? Will that be acceptable by the client? Do I need to take permission from him before doing so?
@@wiser1147 I'm not exactly sure what you mean by dynamic balancing machine. If it is not designed for balancing crankshafts, then it will not work correctly. Yes, to remove weight you would have to drill a hole. That is standard procedure, and you don't need permission to do so if he is paying you to balance it.
Quick thing, talking to Randy “owner of CWT” he recommends final balance spin to finish out at 750rpm’s. Thanks for the video, I’m always interested on how other shop work, if nothing else to learn a new trick.
Yep, we spin at 750rpms to finish balancing. As long as we’re below 50grams out of balance then we can go to 750rpms otherwise we stay at 500rpms until we do.
With the CWT bob weights they are balanced so that you don’t have to phase them 90* to each rod throw. They just have to be spaced horizontally on the journals evenly.
@@pageracingengines I have the same balancer. They need to be clocked. I know that Randy says that they don't, but they do and we proved it to him when he was at our shop.
Bad Shopper... Informative Instructional. good work but whoever ordered rods and pistons so damn heavy you needed add additional weight to the counterweights... screwed up big time. Arguably could have been the crank choice as well. If it ain't broke... don't fix it. somebody broke it in their selection of parts, and you fixed it. The CWT software program is... Rockin !
Sometimes you can't control the weights on the parts requiring heavy metal. For example ls7 engines will always need heavy metal when going to aftermarket parts due to the factory ones being so light weight to begin with. Yea the CWT software is amazing and makes it very easy to balance.
FYI, you need new drill bits. Your's are either dull or the wrong type for the metal you are drilling into. You shouldn't have to put that much pressure on it to drill the holes. I may be wrong, but it looks like you are just using HSS bits. Try some high-quality HS cobalt bits because they should cut that material easily. Your local machine shop supply store should have some and get some cutting oil make them last longer.
Thanks for showing more of the heavy metal process. Hagerty rebuilt a Chevy 283 and needed heavy metal, but there wasn't as much detail about how the weights are located and selected.
Nice work.
Have a good day.
Thanks for sharing.
Thank you
Great work very well explained. Thank you🙏🙏
Memories of Gasoline Alley NJ 1970s where this type of scientific racing started. Petty used to get the 426 hemi done there
Can't remember the name but we actually would go to the master of balancing at a rickety shop down a dirt road.
Balancing was a BIG secret back then. It looks like your software leads the crank for oil etc. Nice
He never gave up the secret formula he would scratch out on a napkin then ask what rpm your max was. Never let you watch him. It was so secret back then.
Great vid
JET
Yea back in the day everything was secretive and some places still are today. Technology has come a long way in the equipment we have available.
Great video, I've always wandered how they do it. Thanks
Holy moly! I wonder what machine is used to balance those big jumbo crankshafts for those ones.
This might be an unconventional question. But, If you have a stock 305 chevy engine and you get oversized .030 pistons that are factory replacements. And you were to weigh them to see if they are the same weight as the original pistons. What is a like threshold of how much weight in grams, can they be off before you need to get the crank balanced. I know the old school shade tree answer and that it doesn't matter people have been building stock engines like that for 30 years. But what is your opinion on that?
If the crank has been balanced before and you changed pistons, then on a typical street engine it wouldn't need rebalancing unless the pistons are more than 10g difference in weight for each piston. If it's a race engine, then we will typically rebalance for anything more than 7 grams difference.
@@pageracingengines thanks
Excellent video, I always had questions about the bob weights and how it was determined how much they weighed and how they were set up on the crank, From what I saw it's not critical how they are oriented on the journals since you basically eye balled the journals being straight up and the weights being perpendicular to them.
Yes the bob weights are balanced so their rotational orientation on the journal is not critical, only the side to side position is across all the journals.
arduous process worth the gold 💯
Great video! Are the heavy metal pieces pressed in only? No welding or anything? Thanks.
Yea they are just press fit. Being installed horizontally through the counterweight there’s very little chance for it to come out compared to if it was installed vertically into the counterweight.
Engines at rpms over 7000 can benefit from a 3% over balance to compensate for rod stretch, about .035 for steel and .050 for Aluminum
And Titanium ? 🤔
@@nNataXx Titanium rods don't stretch at 7000 rpm.
Do you ever do a no holes balance ?
Yes, we don't do it a whole lot but we do a no hole balance on our stock/super stock cranks.
I would like to have heard some if not all of what you fast fowarded through. Some of us don’t balance on a regular basis. I myself have never, but would like to if given the chance. Maybe I could have picked up some hints of what you were or weren’t doing based on past experiences.
EXCELLENT VID.
Thank you
One of my favorite things to do with balancing the rotating assembly along the Pistons and rods one thing I noticed that the Mercedes rotating assembly was perfectly balanced but they're pistons and rods were so out of bounce we never could believe it sometimes 10 g I guess they thought the rotating assembly would make up for it.
Yea it’s amazing how far out some parts are from the manufacturer and how they think it’s properly balanced.
When you setup to install reluctor wheel, what interference range do you look for first?
We look for around .006-.008 interference fit
If i use ISO to put the information i have problem when i put rotor weight which weight i put is the crankshaft weight ?
I know balancing to within tolerances is pefectly fine and going beyond that has diminishing returns BUT if you wanted something blueprinted, like an expensive bryant crank for a high rpm build how close to zero imbalance can you get?
It's hard to get zero imbalance due to the fact of not knowing exactly how much oil weight is clinging to the crank. The industry standard is typically 5 grams unless the rod throws have pockets instead of through holes that would hold more oil then we would increase that number.
I hope my machinist does this good balancing my rotating assembly.
I HAVE A SCAT 331 STROKER . how much outrun can a crankflange(where flywheel bolts on) have? thanks for the vids
All those counterweights and still needs Mallory, callies comp starts are the same way, , just not enough counterweight to do the job ,we use molnar 90% of the time or scat and I never need to add heavy metal,
Yea it’s pain having to add the heavy metal especially when there’s nothing crazy about the parts being used
Do you understand that bobweights need to be concentric so that the weight is evenly distributed around the journal. The way you do it, the weights should be added as vectors and it will still be wrong.
Some cranks are so case hard we have to grind off the hardness first before drill and ream ( Tried carbide tooling but chip prone and huge bucks ! resharp is a nightmare (
Yea that's one reason why I haven't tried the carbide tooling yet because I know it's going to chip very easily.
Really enjoyed watching your video. What is the procedure when you attached those bob weights, that positions them radially around the rod journal?
Was thinking the same thing it must make a difference surely?
As for as the rotational position of the bobweights, it doesn’t matter. But side to side on the rod journal does. We have a wishbone spacer that slides over the journal and spaces the bob weights out from the cheek of the rod journal the same on each one. We just make sure to push the bob weight against that spacer and tighten it down.
@@Aladinscave it does make a difference where they are placed side to side on the journal. We tried eyeballing them in the center and then using our wishbone spacer method and noticed a 10-15 gram difference
IMy son and I are rebuilding a Toyota 2JZ. We plan to turbo it. How important or necessary would balancing help? The engine is a straight 6 3.0
It's always a good idea for it to be balanced just so that it will run smoothly. If it's out of balance then it can start knocking the bearings out of the engine if it's too far out of balance.
Interesting video, when balancing a crank is it necessary to consider the key that indexes the timing gear on the crank?
No, only because it is so close to the crank centerline and the keys don't weigh very much so they don't create a large enough effect on the crank balance.
great video!
Thanks. Just trying to educate others on how we balance our cranks.
I dont know how this machine calculate of the rod ( big end), 479,80 + 43,30 = 523,1 ( total)
and then total 1046,2 ( 523,1 x 2 )Why double the rob ( big end) ? Plss Explain me
You double the big end because there are 2 rods on each journal.
@@pageracingengines why this machine need to know times rods/ throw? Pls
@@baeminh3636 its trying to replicate the amount of weight that it will see when running in the engine.
A friend has a sunnen DCB 2000 but we don’t know and can’t find anything on how to use it properly.
Sirs Great Video, thank you! Just a few quick questions if you don't mind?
What rpm's do you spin your drill bits when drilling the crankshaft?
Is there a brand and angle of drill bit that works best for you? - Thanks again! Subscribed
I am not sure of the rpms of the drill since the machine does not give a rpm readout. I just use a speed that seems to be cutting the best with that given size of drill bit. No certain brand, just what my local tooling supplier carries but they are cobalt. I have found the cobalt drills a lot better than a regular high speed steel especially on the nitrided cranks. Sometimes I do have to start with a carbide spotting drill to get through the top layer of nitriding and then the regular drill bits will cut better.
question . About 3 cylinder say a 1 liter ford ecoboost . Is there a way to balance those engine assembled ? Because if each part are balanced seperatly engine run unbalanced
I assume the same process would apply, shouldn’t it? Start with a crank weigh each piston n rod. Make bob weights, n start spinning….
Thanks for this, first one I've seen with this much detail. I was just a line mechanic - never did any real racing so I have dumb questions :)
Does the machine tell you how far from crank centerline to drill for the heavy metal?
One thing I don't get is that the crank now seems married to that piston/rod combo. Is there a different technique when you just balance the crank and you can use different rod/piston combos on that same crank? I assume the pistons and rods of each flavor are all equal weights to each other so I don't get why you have to be so specific on that part. Just make the bobweights all the same and the balance of the crank will be good. I must be missing something about the dynamics at play here.
Yes the machine tells exactly how far from the crank centerline to drill and install the heavy metal. Yes this rod and piston combo is married to this crank. If either part is changed then the crank is rebalanced. Even just changing from stock bore to .030 over pistons requires rebalancing the crank. There are variances in piston design between manufactures as well as rod design which lead to different weights. The crank manufactures balance/design the cranks to a specific bob weight that is in the average range for that engine combination (i.e. sbc 350 or sbf 302 etc)
DO You Ever Do a Over Balance
No, we’ve not really seen much difference in over balancing so we don’t really over balance anymore.
Jealous of the new technology, I used a "jamb nut" similar to what you used to support the C/W while you drilled for the slug to simulate the mallory, spinning, relocating and respinning to find the happy spot to drill. It worked well, but computers eliminate the guesswork since my jamb nuts had less influence to the added weight being inboard of the actual intended slug location.
What's your method of removing the trigger wheel without damaging it?
Yea this new technology definitely simplifies it a little and reduces the amount of time finding the right amount and location.
We use a little heat on the reluctor wheel to reduce the press and then tap it with a deadblow and it comes right off.
What is the RPM while balancing?
Intial balancing is at 500rpm and then once the total unbalance is under 50grams we go up to 750rpms until we meet our target balance.
@@pageracingengines thank you so much for replying. I have a client who wants to balance a new jeep car crankshaft. I have never balanced a crankshaft before. The client says he wants the balancing to be done at 6000 rpm since the car will run at that speed. What do I do? Also should I ask him to bring the pistons and the connecting rod as well?
@@wiser1147 You can't balance at the actual engine speed. 750rpms on the balancing machine is plenty high enough for majority of engines out there. You will need to know the weights on the rods, pistons, rings, rod bearings in order to get an accurate bob weight and unless you have a crank balancing machine you won't be able to balance the crankshaft yourself.
@@pageracingengines thanks for the reply. I do have a dynamic balancing machine will that be sufficient? I'm sorry I don't know the difference between crankshaft balancing machine and dynamic balancing machine. Also if I need to remove weight can I do so make by drilling a hole? Will that be acceptable by the client? Do I need to take permission from him before doing so?
@@wiser1147 I'm not exactly sure what you mean by dynamic balancing machine. If it is not designed for balancing crankshafts, then it will not work correctly. Yes, to remove weight you would have to drill a hole. That is standard procedure, and you don't need permission to do so if he is paying you to balance it.
It doesn't matter which way engine turns and then balance the Crankshaft to correct way?
No it doesn't matter which way the crankshaft turns it will still balance out the same way.
Quick thing, talking to Randy “owner of CWT” he recommends final balance spin to finish out at 750rpm’s. Thanks for the video, I’m always interested on how other shop work, if nothing else to learn a new trick.
Yep, we spin at 750rpms to finish balancing. As long as we’re below 50grams out of balance then we can go to 750rpms otherwise we stay at 500rpms until we do.
@@pageracingengines what's the highest PRM it can spin? Is there any benefit?
It may have been balanced to tolerance but the phasing was way off. Also the bob weights were not clocked 90* to each rod
With the CWT bob weights they are balanced so that you don’t have to phase them 90* to each rod throw. They just have to be spaced horizontally on the journals evenly.
@@pageracingengines I have the same balancer. They need to be clocked. I know that Randy says that they don't, but they do and we proved it to him when he was at our shop.
@@johnnypfahl4478 Oh ok, well I guess I will have to check that out then. Thanks for the advice.
how much for the machine ? i have 20.000 euro
Bad Shopper... Informative Instructional. good work but whoever ordered rods and pistons so damn heavy you needed add additional weight to the counterweights... screwed up big time. Arguably could have been the crank choice as well. If it ain't broke... don't fix it. somebody broke it in their selection of parts, and you fixed it. The CWT software program is... Rockin !
Sometimes you can't control the weights on the parts requiring heavy metal. For example ls7 engines will always need heavy metal when going to aftermarket parts due to the factory ones being so light weight to begin with. Yea the CWT software is amazing and makes it very easy to balance.
Interesting, but do away with the annoying load music.....
Thank you. Are you talking about the intro music at the beginning of the video?
@@pageracingengines No, all the music during the time lapse video. It would be ok if it were half the volume.
@@d6c10k4 Ok, thank you for the feedback. I will adjust that for the other videos.
😭
@@pageracingengines All of the music in the video needs to be about 10 decibels lower. Other than that, this is a very good video.
BAD ASS !!
Thanks
Good golly that is a contraption
FYI, you need new drill bits. Your's are either dull or the wrong type for the metal you are drilling into. You shouldn't have to put that much pressure on it to drill the holes. I may be wrong, but it looks like you are just using HSS bits. Try some high-quality HS cobalt bits because they should cut that material easily. Your local machine shop supply store should have some and get some cutting oil make them last longer.
They’re cobalt bits. Even new they take a decent amount of pressure on some of these cranks with the way they are nitrided.
Fuking awesome
Thank you
👍👍👏🏻👏🏻
Where’s your safety glasses when drilling?
Using my safety squints haha
Could do without the music
😊❤😂🎉😢😮😅😊
all the precission in the world... and some of these idiots cars still sound like ron jeremy taking a sh*t :( nice work man
You balanced it with the woodruff not on the crank.😮😮😮😮OH. NO.
PISTONS, CRANKSHAFTS, SUCK SEE VIDEO THE 1000HP WANKEL!!!!