Why Nietzsche Called Thucydides The “Cure for Plato”
Вставка
- Опубліковано 22 чер 2024
- Support the show on Patreon: www.patreon.com/untimelyreflections
Visit us on Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/0ZARzVC...
“My cure for Platonism has always been Thucydides.” Nietzsche saw in the first historian of Ancient Greece the will to adhere to realism, and to learn the lessons of the “harsh teacher” of war. Where he sees cowardice in Plato, Nietzsche sees courage in Thucydides, as well as the “practical justice” of allowing all the parties a fair representation of their viewpoint. Thucydides, for Nietzsche, is the epitome of the Sophist tradition, which he contrasts with the moralism of Socrates and Plato. In this episode, we discuss The History of the Peloponnesian War, Thucydides’ great contribution to world literature and history.
#ancientgreece #nietzsche #ancienthistory #history #thucydides #peloponnese #athens #sparta #thisissparta #philosophy #plato #philosophypodcast #philosophylecture
We could link all philosophers such as Thucydides with Montaigne, Machiavelli, La Rochefoucauld, Fontenelle and Nietzsche as philosophers that distinguish truth and life as two completely separate values. For these philosophers, illusions are absolutely necessary for life to flourish. This is why they were considered in their time as « immoral » philosophers, because of the common idea which tilts towards truth as something good in itself and illusions as something morally bad.
In a way this also goes against everything else Nietzsche stood for. This isn't how I interpreted him at all. I would think he wouldn't settle for comforting lies. Isn't this the whole basis by which he critiques Plato, Christianity, and anyone who relies on otherworldly phenomena to cope with life? Not rejecting life by creating comforting illusions, but by accepting life for what it is and facing it head on. Where I think this other interpretation comes from, is his perspectivism. Which I don't think implies that he favors illusions. Granted, his view of truth is quite complicated.
@@Tehz1359 Nietzsche never promotes truth as something good in itself. This is very important distinction to make between him and other philosophers such as Plato, Socrates, and may I dare to say, Jordan Peterson. He wrote that seeking truth is a dangerous activity and that one has to be an adventurer to seek truth. But who are those adventurers ?
This is when the Nietzschean aristocratisme comes in to play : Thus spoke Zarathustra is meant for a select few people, these people, superior men are people who can swallow more truth than the common men, are psychologically stronger men, which there satiation will lead to their demise.
I think your confusion comes from this : for Nietzsche truth is not something that must be promoted for people who seeks confort, but for the very few, he would say « inquire »
@@alwaysgreatusa223 Nietzsche also didn’t say that truth was opposed to life either. He only writes that truth and life has no correlation. For Nietzsche, truth can be or can’t be life affirming. He doesn’t have an antagonistic view of truth and life. An important distinction to make.
@@alwaysgreatusa223 Nietzsche writes that truth can be life affirming depending on the psychological strength of an individual. The more an individual can handle and digest truth, the stronger and life affirming he is. This type of men, Nietzsche portrays as the higher types of men. But for Nietzsche, this is not the case for the vast majority of men that is the « people » who needs comforting illusions to live. This is where the Nietzschean aristocratism come from. Only a select few higher men can find truth as life affirming.
Fiction is often find in art and show truth much clearly than the complexity of the real world. Fiction simplifies the real world, and allows the reader, to understand the message of the author. For example : « les liaisons dangereuses » is a fictional work of art.
@@alwaysgreatusa223 For Nietzsche, this kind illusion is often regarded by « truth » for the common people. Hence why he quotes « truth are illusions which we have forgotten are illusions ».
00:01 📜 Thucydides is considered the first true historian of ancient Greece, focusing on real events and figures, particularly during the Peloponnesian War, which shaped the destiny of the Hellenic people.
01:38 📖 Thucydides wrote not for his own age but for all posterity, aiming for his work to be a timeless possession for future generations.
03:14 📚 Thucydides prioritized an exact knowledge of the past to aid in interpreting the future, focusing on facts and events rather than romanticizing history.
05:15 🤔 Nietzsche admired Thucydides for his commitment to disinterested knowledge, realism, and the rejection of moralism in historical accounts, contrasting him with Plato.
08:30 🌍 Thucydides is considered the first realist historian, emphasizing power dynamics and the causes of conflict in geopolitics.
16:10 🧐 Thucydides, unlike Herodotus, sought higher standards of evidence and did not attribute causal relationships to the will of the gods in his historical accounts.
18:54 📜 Nietzsche esteemed Thucydides for his disinterested knowledge of the world, recognizing and finding good sense in various human types and events, which aligned with the culture of the sophists.
20:47 🏛 Nietzsche values great individuals in Greek culture, with Democritus representing materialist philosophy's zenith.
22:34 🏆 Greek culture before Plato was defined by rivalry, competition, and immorality, especially in the culture of the Sophists.
25:07 🤝 Thucydides depicts powers in the Peloponnesian War with competing interests and moral views driven by their interests.
28:32 💡 Thucydides' practical justice portrays diverse viewpoints and moral claims without imposing his own universal moral standard.
32:49 ⚔ The Peloponnesian War is driven by the Thucydides Trap, where an existing great power (Sparta) and a rising power (Athens) inevitably clash.
40:07 🏛 The Peloponnesian War begins due to the growth of Athens' power and the fear it instills in Sparta, leading to inevitable conflict.
41:20 🏛 Athens built defensive walls, including those in Piraeus, creating a protected corridor to maintain supplies via the sea, ensuring the city's resilience during wartime sieges.
43:12 🌊 Spartan ravaging of Athenian countryside led to popular agitation for Athens to march out and confront the enemy, but Pericles wisely advocated a defensive stance, ensuring a steady supply of resources to the city.
45:27 🇬🇷 Pericles' famous funeral oration emphasized Athens as the school of the Hellenes, praising democracy and valor, providing Athenians with a higher purpose in the war against Sparta.
52:15 🦠 A devastating plague struck Athens due to importing Egyptian grain, causing significant deaths and demoralization among the population.
56:38 ⚔ Cleon rose to power in Athens, leading successful military campaigns against the Spartans, including the defeat of Spartan hoplites and the capture of their prisoners.
58:12 🏛 In Coursera, a struggle between oligarchy and democracy erupted, leading to internal strife and a breakdown in the city's ability to act effectively. Similar polarization occurred in various Greek cities during the Peloponnesian War.
01:02:19 🏛 Athens gained an advantage over other Greek cities during the Peloponnesian War, prompting cities to switch sides, which kept the conflict ongoing.
01:03:16 🗳 The city of Delium switched from Thebes to the Delian League due to Athens' superiority, but Athens lost control when Thebans creatively defeated them.
01:04:13 🌊 Bursitis, a Spartan General, gained control of Amphipolis, causing concern among Athenians, as the city supplied essential resources, including timber for the navy.
01:06:05 💡 Thucydides arriving a day earlier could have inspired the inhabitants of Amphipolis to fight back, but the city surrendered before he arrived.
01:07:42 ⚔ Spartans won an overwhelming military victory against Athenians, leading to the negotiation of an Armistice and the return of prisoners.
01:09:17 🤝 Athens, facing losses, calculated that trading hostages for the restoration of their colonies was necessary, but this peace did not last, leading to continued conflict.
01:13:55 🏝 Athens attempted to bring Milos, a neutral island, into the Delian League, leading to a critical negotiation between Athenian envoys and the Melian leadership.
01:19:04 🗺 The Melians argue that they should be neutral friends rather than enemies, as their subjugation would risk angering other neutrals, but the Athenians insist on retaining their empire.
01:22:34 🏛 Thucydides emphasizes that when facing overwhelming odds, it's unwise to reject a reasonable offer to avoid ruin.
01:25:06 🤔 The Athenians' actions in besieging and subjugating the Melians highlight the ruthless nature of realpolitik and power dynamics in geopolitics.
01:27:10 🤝 Justice, according to Nietzsche, originates in the barter-like exchanges between parties of approximately equal strength, rooted in self-interest and practical necessity.
01:36:04 🇬🇷 The Peloponnesian War, as depicted by Thucydides, reveals human actions driven by self-interest, practicality, and power dynamics rather than transcendent moral values.
01:39:08 💪 Nietzsche suggests that equality and inequality are responses to the conditions of the polity, with neither being inherently just or unjust, but rather products of power dynamics and collective self-interest.
Whenever i watch your videos i feel like i hear something new or a slightly different representation or expression even of the things i already know
This made my day. Thank you.
Man, this podcast is the end all be all.
Thank you sir
Funny..I just finished listening to a lesson in you tube about Thucydides by Leo Strauss...its 10 hours and now today I see yours as the perfect continuation. Thanks for these marvelous audios.
Please keep making videos! Thank you so much!
Love the deep dives on Nietzsche
Thank you for going into such detail about the Peloponnesian War. It's surprisingly difficult to find that on UA-cam, most people just summarise it in a few minutes
perfect timing as i am reading The History of the War of Peloponnesian
Great videos! Enjoyed every minute of it. But I have to admit you went pretty lightly with your assessment of Alcibiades. He was a piece of work😂
Thanks!
Until now, every time I've heard "sophist" it's always a pejorative I'm glad to hear a defense of the position
Yes
Thanks bro
This seeming co tradition between nietzsches admiration for Plato as well as his struggle against him makes perfect sense with respect to will to power. After all, aren’t the best struggles against those whom you consider great or of equal ability? The best way for the will to power to assert itself seemingly comes from such struggles.
Nooo! Please don't end the video, I need more of this enlightenment.
But please by all mean, tell us more about the war.
Would you ever do a audiobook of thus spoke Zarathustra?
With or without your insights i would prefer it to the ones available as i think your the only dude whos done it justice.
Zero ads.
Bliss
Perfect.
Hi, have you talked about Nietzsches conception of art (and more precisely music) in one of your podcasts?
Yes.
Art (and artists): open.spotify.com/episode/5yHeYgiqnnUPRCRLJPqArD?si=Ficv_vt9QmKFvQ4vFIRVaw
Music: open.spotify.com/episode/6iWmOnv8uWTc22d1ByA7aF?si=RxL99gMRSQK9KAUUyd-7yw
@@untimelyreflections Thank you
I admire the practical natured beings from the past. He, in particular, not attributing to the will of the gods is refreshing to know, considering his time and culture.
Can you make a video on albert camus?
there is nothing new under the sun. good job.
I thought that was really good and gave some historical perspective to the bias of the term sophist although it seems confusing. It seems to me that Sophists are hardcore realists with no objective other than telling truth but for the sake of money, while the Platonists want to tailor history and religion for the purpose of framing current moral necessities. Then theres also the take that in war morality does not apply as its kind of winner take all kinda deal and anything is on the table as that is just human nature evidenced by the constant alliance shifting. It seems that when power and interests are on the line morality really takes a wayside and no one really cares what the victor does so long as they win. To me it comes across like such moral idealism is a complete pipedream and does not work as with all the negotiated peaces it seems like war just broke out over and over again as its part of a paradigm that when two different powers/idealogies are trying to occupy the same area/exploit resources and enact their will they will come into conflict until one power is crushed and subordinated to the other.
If you could clarify any mistakes ive made that would be great.
Metaphysical Realism:
Reality = That which is.
Since only That which is can either affirm or deny that there either is or is not That which is, there is That which is.
Reality = That which is = All-inclusive = Absolute = Creative Intelligence = Continuum of Being = Life.
Nature goes on forever for everyone and everything to return as everyone and everything an infinite number of times through evolutionary processes. 🌌
Melian dialogue discussion begins 1:13:29
One day this podcast will be taught in schools 👍 niche podcast for posterity 🙏
Was Thucydides present in Millos though, I remmember that this passage was written as an estimate of how Thucydides expected things would have proceded?
No, iirc he was not in Melos. Would've been logistically weird if he had been. As with many places in the book, since Thucydides couldn't be at all the major events, he says that he's summarized what happened based on speaking to first hand accounts. He even admits this with the speeches.
59:20
Truth exists, “the” truth doesn’t. And “a” truth is just metaphysics.
we may be repeating what happened in the past?
25:20
4:30
Whether✌️Peace or War🗡️, or War ⚔️ &👣 Peace☮️, the Killer🦸of Greedy💰War🤺 is the Skiller🎺 Pillar🏛️of World 🌎Ease.🎶🙏
Preach 🙏
Nietzsche or Erich Fromm? 🤔
Of leather fame
Nietzche is right that there’s no such thing as right. A contradiction if I ever heard one. These sophists have destroyed civilization.
bad interpretation on the melian situation by nietzche; the athenians subsequently lost bigly in sicily. 1:19:20 this melian rebuttal turned out to be true in the end. athens played the game of power and was defeated by the greatest power, the persians. it is a no win game. the idea of justice solely resting on power relations cannot be sustained, it is only ever short term gain
An Allegory to answer this ansient question, proposed by Phucydides vs Plato
How to beat the dead horse, Sleipnir; while trying to bring back Baldur from Hel?
Mortals wanting to save their reason from madness, begets folly and stupor.
By simply wanting to be with Reason, we treason our Wits, because only by
an insestuous relationship with Hagia Sophia, we can uphold all the Knowledge
and Wisdom, we have to this day gleamed. The Fire and Manna from Heaven;
making all the descendants of Prometheus shackled, eating their own liver and
heart out!! Being the food and the eagle, doing so. The reason, why Nietzsche
went mad, hugging a dead horse, being beaten by his angry master; why Akutagawa
killed himself, for being same old, as his predecessors in teaching the youth;
what made Kierkegaard dread, in contemplating his fathers blasphemy!!
Sin boldly, and then you've done your bidding, take your cross upon your own
and exalt your path with thy pain and suffering, being your own personal Jesus!! :P
The lion lives in man earth and other in the forest choice is yours how u want to live
Never heard of the guy
Nietchze remains an intellectual thug afterall.
Thug lyfe
@@untimelyreflections Noetchze, though could see in the bright light, is anger-worker as Michael Sugru discribes him. Anger can be vice or virtue.. and im not sure which Nietchze's is
Yeah, except for the fact that the Macedonians were also Hellenic!
Herodotus is considered the first historian sorry.
Herodotus unfortunately relies on hearsay and includes stories that are based on legends and folklore.
@@untimelyreflections apparently some of his records could also be slightly exaggerated as is with most others I guess pending on their political leanings
I’m not dissing on Herodotus, I just think Thucydides was doing something that sets him apart.
Herodotus is considered father of history on the other hand, Thucydides has been dubbed the father of "scientific history" by those who accept his claims to have applied strict standards of impartiality and evidence-gathering and analysis of cause and effect, without reference to intervention by the gods, as outlined in his introduction to his work.
(Personally, though I love Herodotus, his work is much more enjoyable than Thucydides)
content and presentation are excellent but the repeated filler word 'right?' undermines all of that - don't mean to cause distress but to request a change - occasionally that filler isn't a problem but, when it becomes an habitual and frequent verbal tic, it leads to belief the speaker lacks confidence and is begging for approval - it is difficult to listen for long periods without annoyance - really excellent work otherwise
45:18