Ladislav Findorak's Prototype Lever-Delayed PDW
Вставка
- Опубліковано 28 лип 2024
- / czguns
/ czfirearms
utreon.com/c/forgottenweapons/
/ forgottenweapons
Cool Forgotten Weapons merch! shop.forgottenweapons.com
Contact:
Forgotten Weapons
6281 N. Oracle 36270
Tucson, AZ 85740
"guns are meant to be shot" CZ got it 100% right there!
Yes sir, that's why we have them :Dd piece of american weapon freedom in the middle of the Europe, that is CZ.
Any gun manufacturer with faith in their product should be more than happy to have people shoot their products.
If they work flawlessly, then that's great marketing.
If issues occur: ample opportunity for ironing out kinks to further perfect the product.
At least attempted!
@@sevenproxies4255 true. This is a 40 year old prototype that never made it to production, so critique away. But there is a lot of cool design to learn from off that little thing.
@@CrashRacknShoot I like a lot of design elements of it.
And as far as the full-auto problems Ian had on the range, like you said, it's a prototype.
And in my expience, misfeeds and trigger reset failures usually bottles down to the piece just needing some more machining.
Some material needs to be added or taken off. But that's part and parcel of gunsmithing after all. This gun clearly doesn't need that much work to function flawlessly.
Oh wow they let you shoot it?! That's so cool. Big thanks to CZ for letting us see this.
That mag dump was even longer than the 200-rounder from that Knight's Armament machinegun, very impressive.
ΧD kekw ~~~ so true....
Thank you very much CZ for allowing Ian to shoot this piece, I did not expect you to do so to the point I was thinking "pity he won't get to shoot it".
Obviously, it's a developmental piece, it would be interesting to see if the bugs could be ironed out as it's actually quite a nice design and that's coming from a died-in-the-wool Skorpian fanboy.
Mag should be in the grip tho
@@j.yossarian6852 not if it affects the design and functionality but an extra mag holder in the grip could be nice tho
@@j.yossarian6852 Exactly my thought. With that, a longer barrel would be possible. But the upper reciver must be extended to make room for the bolt but if you extend the upper the lengh of pull could also be improved. But the gun would not be as compact as befor.
Really reminds me of the pp-91, minus the lever delayed action, it’s remarkably similar
I always wondered if anything other than the famas was ever designed around the lever delayed system, guess I’ve got my answer now
Also the Hungarian Kiraly 39M/ 43M submachineguns
@@jakubdolezal665 oh yeah, almost forgot about that one
Your user picture brings me back. Thumbs up.
The AA-52 is the French GPMG since 1952.
@@garthenar nice to find a fellow fan of the show on here
It looks like a Brugger and Thomet by way of Walther. I realize aesthetics aren't the most important thing in firearms design but it really is a nice looking little SMG.
It is, isn't it? I was thinking the same thing
I was just thinking looking at the thumbnail, there seems (at least to me) to be a running theme of "cool looking" firearms becoming failures for one reason or another.
Its shame, because these firearms are cool obviously 😅
Agreed, it's a simple design perfected and made elegant as an result.
Looks like russian smg PP-91 KEDR
It looks like a M3 Grease Gun that got caught in a vice.
"Guns are meant to be shot" I knew there was a reason I liked CZ. LOL
Like any prototype I would guess that it needs a little fine tuning and possibly the magazine is a little finiky also. I love the overall concept. It's definitely not a cheaply made gun. Looks like quite a bit of maching was involved in the manufacturing process. But I generally like the idea.
That is very high quality for a one of its kind prototype! I'm impressed!
I'm no gunsmith, far from it, but I could see a couple of improvements that would have helped the ejection - like filling in that big empty space above the chamber a loose shell can fit into and a deflector to make sure the casing has only one place to go during ejection. Also, I wish Ian had worked the selector switch back and forth with some "emphasis" to make sure it was fully seated in the auto position.
I suspect that CZ did not pursue this design because they figured it won't be possible to make this thing out of stampings.
The problem isn't the magazine, I think, because Ian wasn't having trouble with an empty chamber.
Maybe it’s because he’s holding the magazine too tightly
"Let's see if it works" made me smile. Sounds like CZ has some awesome people in charge
looks like it needs a beefier extractor,but it did well for a prototype,also the Scorpion stock would work so much better since it has a "long" bare barrel
Yesss, the skorpion stock looks right at home here.
It also looks like there's not enough kinetic energy in the cycle to do everything it's trying to do. Might be cause the main spring is too cold, not quite as responsive as it should be.
@@jono3952 I was thinking that maybe the chamber isn't fluted, that could rob the action of necessary momentum, the H&K delayed blowback guns all have fluted chambers to stop the case from sticking in the chamber...
I believe extraction is fine, because it works in semiauto. Ian also attempts "to recock the hammer without losing the round." So I believe he's ejecting unfired cartridges, rather than empty fired cases that failed to extract. The hammer possibly follows the bolt down too gently/early, not striking the primer hard enough to fire. So now you have a chambered round and uncocked gun. In semiauto, the disconnector prevents the hammer from "following" and it works fine.
If someone ironed out the kinks this thing would rock, I love everything about it
Agreed. It looks like it has the possibility of being a handy pdw type of gun.
Maybe it is the ammo. Sadly Ian didn't mention what he used and if he tried different types or if this is the rated ammo.
@@wurstelei1356 Czech republic produces ammo, so it is unlikely to have variations in quality due to change of supplier. I mean, they run gun testing in the factory, not a shooting range for tourists.
@@Pyrochemik007 yup.. Sellier & Bellot being one of the oldest and well established ammo manufacturers in the world is located in Czech
For the billionth time, thanks Ian for showing us some random obscure weapon that we never knew existed. Looks like this design should be revisited i reckon. Cheers.
Very nice video as always.
Maybe one day you can try to review the Czech "CZW 556" rifle?
It's a lever-delayed blowback gun as well and I've always wondered how it would operate.
Its Findorak work as well, same like CZ 805 and others rifles
If I am not mistaken this is also L. Findorak's work based partially on Baryshev's design.
@@CzechoslovakGunStories Yes it is
@@CzechoslovakGunStories
Do you know of any videos or other media about it?
I'm really interested in it, yet the only thing I managed to find is a low quality test fire video.
@@adh615 I will see what I can do :)
I have always been intrigued by the lever-delayed system, but slightly disappointed by the lack of general examples of lever-delayed blowback in firearms. This video has proven to be quite interesting.
Yeah, the only one I knew of before googling it was the FAMAS, and there aren't very many at all. I remember reading that H&K tried making a lever-delayed SMG (an early MP5 or UMP prototype, or maybe the MP7?), but gave up. It seems to have some inherent problems that just make it hard to get right.
Thanks, CZ and Ian for letting us see this kinda work.
I guess we can conclude that the gun really did fail the adverse conditions test if the cold has got the trigger that messed up.
Interestingly enough Czech Weapons System also tried applying this lever delayed blowback system to lots of other weapons as well; multiple SMG designs, a few rifles, etc (though much like the PDW here, none of them seemingly ended up with any major production)
I want to tell the CZ marketing people I start following their social media because of their cool attitude towards Ian taking this gun to the range. Many companies would be scared of bad publicity because of malfunctions or the gun breaking or whatever, but this is how you're supposed to do it CZ, thanks!
that PDW is pretty awesome I bet if it were to be made today, or something very similar, it would be a big seller on today's market.
I wonder if some combination of bolt bounce and hammer follow is causing the stoppages. Seems that the trigger is resetting, hence the doubles, but something about the cadence of sustained fire is causing light primer strikes.
@Peter smith The ammo is the easiest thing to rule out. No repairs, no modifications, just different ammo. I'm not sure if hotter or lighter would be better, but I am somewhat disappointed that it wasn't investigated here. My gut says hotter, but who knows?
I agree, because I used to have the same issue with an older Century C308 that I had. I went too long without cleaning it once, and it had trouble with hammer follow and I'd get random 2 or 3 round bursts out of a semi auto rifle. And then after that 2nd or 3rd round I'd have to charge it again and reset the hammer because it was following the bolt. Needless to say I cleaned it every time I shot it after that happened.
I guess it's because it is a prototype rather than a production model that's had all the bugs worked out.
From what I can see in the footage, it appears that the trigger axis pin was too short and walked to the left little bit, which would cause an alignment issue with the trigger. It would still be able to effectively fire, but resetting would be problematic and prone to errors in that case (same with an AR15, or any other gun that has a very "neat" trigger group without a lot of horizontal space to shift aroudn in).
Maybe the magazine springs were weak?
I was thinking the magazine wasn't able to keep up with the bolt.
Ian - "Let's reload this and try a bit more full auto".
Everyone else - "I want your job".
That's a neat design though, tiny little SMG that's *actually* controllable in automatic fire.
A little more R&D and they may have something. The delayed action is a good idea in a small SMG. What’s old could be new.
The Skorpion is already that gun, albeit in a small caliber.
This is the most visually appealing pdw I've seen you examine!! Reminds me of childhood crayon drawings after watching the vhs commando/predator box set!
If that isn't the most adorable little SMG/PDW out there i don't know what is.
We thank you all at CZ 😃 Hope to see more interesting CZ firearms.
I actually really appreciate the long delay here between recording and posting because it was 101F and high humidity the other day at work, indoors, and just seeing someone enjoy an SMG in winter weather had a nice little touch of comfort for me.
I do love the lever delayed system too, really any delayed blowback I’m fascinated with
Me too. Did the lever delay system ever fit into a 9mm pistol? When I'm bored I try to imagine a delay system that would only minimally add to the complexity of a straight blowback design, i.e. keep cost and parts count and manufacturing time to a minimum.
@@donjones4719 I’m not sure, I think I heard about one on forgotten weapons before but maybe I’m just imagining things hahah, if there were I’d assume it was Czech or maybe Chinese before communism
That is an incredibly interesting design, and definitely shows the potential of a lever-delayed system for such a compact weapon. It's a shame it wasn't developed further, but it's also understandable why the Czech military went with the CZ. Perhaps we'll see an evolution of the concept at some point
That's such a cool mechanism! I always love it when you do teardowns and explanations!
The rail seems similar to an 11mm weaver rail. Somewhat like what's on pellet riffles and early or '80s rifles
That's exactly what it is
“The Czechs have been fans of ambidextrous controls for quite a while”
My CZ 85 can confirm.
CZ is awesome for being so generous with their collection. One of my fav firearm manufacturers
A lever delayed Scorpion would be huge success. DO IT CZ!
Great content. Thank you kindly sir,
Really enjoyable to see and hear you expound on an interesting piece of gun design and seeing it fail spectacularly on the range right after. (coupled with your telling it was a one off prototype) Could not help following this video up with re-watching your review of the scorpion evo 3 from 4 years back.
A heart felt thumbs up to CZ for allowing you to field the gun, it brings another dimension to the exploration of this firearm, serving to complete it fully.
Still following you with pleasure from the Netherlands.
Greetings,
Jonathan
If I were to guess, I would say that's an 11 mm dove tail/weaver rail. For the width of the PDW it seems a better choice than the larger picatinny.
I'm not trying to shoot a malfunctioning prototype, while also making an informative video and I'm getting frustrated! Can only imagine how Ian's feeling. Another great video nonetheless!
The lever at no point stops the bolt from moving. The bolt is moving relative to the frame from the instant of primer ignition onward. It can be described as a class 3 lever, with the frame acting as the fulcrum. No motion can be transmitted to the load arm (carrier) if the action point (bolt) is stationary.
Yeah, you are right. That is why Ian corrected himself that it is a delayed, not a locked system. I guess it is formulated in this (a little) incorrect way to make the explanation a bit simpler and shorter - the bolt movement prior to the lever retracting is small enough to support the case enough to prevent detonation and thus not as important to the overall picture.
On the other hand, I can see that in this case, it may confuse someone, for instance, if they are well familiar with levers and not so much with the chamber - case - bolt - not-blowing-up setup.
I wonder if there are more people benefiting from the amplification or if more people would rather have the full picture...
I think Ian has some short videos explaining basic operating principles.
Awesome gun overview PLUS range video! Well done Ian.
Thank you , Ian .
🐺
I love how simple and crude SMG's and PDW's are.
That’s actually a very good simple execution of a lever delay for a sub gun. I love the simplicity of most sub guns. Pps-43 being my favorite at this point but this is really cool. Next level sub gun I wanna make one similar and see if I can pull it off. Video saved to the archive for reference
Thank you CZ and Ian, love it.
The Cz attitude of bringing even rare weapons to the shooting range elevates them a bit above other brands. I will definitely remember this when I make future purchases.
Very cool little gun and enjoyed learning about the delay system. Thanks!
That was about the most interesting mag-dump yet haha certainly a prototype gun. Good on CZ for letting you take it out and run it.
nice interesting prototype, needed some tweaks on the ejection part :)
thanks CZ for letting you disassemble and shoot it , for all of us to see
I get woken up early by my apartment's weedeaters but I get forgotten weapons I'm happy
Bit of a shame to see the malfunctions. A good prototype, it has room for improvement!
CZ is one seriously cool uncle for letting Ian unleash it down range.
Thank y’all to cz. My favorite gun company.
That footage of the freezing shooting range is perfect for cooling me down in this hot summer.😀
Damn! Summers in the Czech Republic are brutal !
God I love the color on this thing's finish. It reminds me of the bluing on the ZH-29 you went over.
I remember when you had a couple hundred thousand subs. Now your big time. Congratulations 🎉🎊🍾🎈
Thank you for showing us this that bolt mechanism is awesome
It looks like it definitely had the potential to be a PDW. Hard to say, what's causing the trigger reset issue, buy it's probably something that could have been worked out.
Great Video Ian, and a big thank you to CZ for allowing a complete demonstration of the gun.
I really hope when you cover the CZ/laugo scorpion 3, you talk about the two piece bolt it was originally designed with. There was some talk of the two piece bolts being brought in but it died out a while ago.
One time messing with my 61 I managed to lodge a cartridge in the space between the upper sleeve and the barrel. It was a nightmare to get out. This video brought back some traumatic memories.
CZ letting you test fire that is awesome. my regards.
It's too bad development didn't continue with this little subgun. There's a lot of cool features.
I know it’s being compared to the VZ. 61, but I’m here thinking it look like a more expensive Kedr
mad respect to CZ saying "its a gun its meant to be shot". cool ass dudes
Never miss a video with "prototype" in the title, love to see those "cool guns"!
Cut a pool noodle and wrap it around the stock. Now you have comfortability and a floating pew pew
Sweet! From the looks of Kinda expecting this to be of low quality but it isnt!
Maybe the gun needs a cartridge with a bit more power to work the mechanism. And the gun probably needs a full disassemble, clean, polish the parts and try again.
Does look cool if a bit more work on it would be needed.
It must be nice to have such respect in the gun community that a major manufacturer will let you walk into their factory and start shooting whatever is laying around.
An analysis of the failure modes would be interesting. It seemed to be something to do with the way the fired brass ejected (or didn't), and the feed from the magazine.
Very cool little gun. But more than that m very jealous of that jacket - always liked Canadian tab buttons.
Cool little gun ...... if it worked...☺ I am really intrigued by this.
Thanks for sharing.
What a great company CZ is!
Aesthetically reminds me of the PDW/IDW and the Kedr/Klin
a lot like a kedr
I see it fires all three modes; Burst, Semi-auto and Single Action :-)
It looks like magazine is a bit low and ejector is fucky. They might have filled in that area above the front trunnion so the casings don't get stuck there. Being armchair engineer sure is fun.
Cute little gun! Interesting bolt.
That gotta be the most adorable little gun I've ever seen
I feel like this might be good contender for the cheek pistol stuff... put rectangular barrelshroud on front with built in tiny light or laser under barrel in it and rail on top... seemed like it wasn't too snappy for recoil as well. -of course with fixing its problems first...]
To me, it looks like there's just too much room for ejected cases to fly around up front there. Needs a better extraction/ejection method, and maybe it's good to go!
Extending the frame all the way out to the muzzle and then adding a front sight out there might've helped with the whole aiming thing.
Edit: There is also some endearing about weird old funky prototypes.
It would also allow you to have a longer folding stock with a locking tab at the front rather than the wonky push down to fold out action. It would still retain its small folded frame and probably be a very nice little SMG.
That would have increased the weight by quite a lot.
@@alltat Nah, don't think it would've been a problem.
🤘😁🤘 Super cool of them to let you shoot it, I wouldn't expect that either. Pretty neat gun.
By one side, i supose that the short stock is made to be comfortable with corporal armour and winter clothes. Otherwise, is chambered in 9x19, whos not a good "frontline" case even for the 90s and the trigger guard dosent look big enough to be comfortable to shot with winter gloves. Maybe because its a prototipe? idk...
I've had a strange affinity for Czech guns for many years. Even now my EDC guns are a P07 tactical and a custom Bren2 shorty carried in a backpack. They just have this feel to them, along with some pretty wicked reliability that I don't mind trusting my life with. Plus, they just look incredibly dope
There's no such thing as failure! Only success or learning.
Great video as usual. As we know, CZ is great firearm manufacturer. They producing very good quality firearms.
regards from Switzerland
I heard every Swiss has an assault rifle locked at home, in case of war. How about voting to allow soldiers to pick any Nato standard rifles? Then you can have Bren 2.
Love these videos! I especially love that CZ would let you shoot something like this. What a fun company. I always wish we could see some of the prototype guns you get to lay hands on in action; this time we did, amazing.
However,
Made in the late nineties. Then later you say it’s 40 years old. That’s some confusing math.
Due to sad story of czechoslovakia, we had 90s twice.
The CZ guys seem to love you! How kind of them
Looks like a great concept that would also be quite simple and cheap to manufacture. Shape it wasn’t adopted and never saw further development.
That's exactly what I would draw when someone says submachine gun
Man it’s always cool to imagine how some of these things would look scales up to like a full sized SMG.
It's got so many hard angles and strong lines that it looks almost like its hand made in a garage. Impressive that it functions in no way like it's appearance implies.
Little PDWs aren't normally my thing but I love that. Interesting design that seems to actually have a functional advantage.
Just something that I think this firearm drives home very well in terms of example. Look at the reciprocating mass that this firearm has for a 9mm parabellum!! You look at many if not all of your direct blowback 9mm sub guns or machine pistols and the difference is striking. I think this weapon showcases how useful and practical a delayed action can really be. In most 9mm sub guns your are going to see blowback operation because it’s economical and relatively reliable/simplistic. The downside to most of the direct blowback sub guns is the reciprocating mass must be adequate enough to delay opening until pressure is safe and it also has to have enough mass to slow the cyclic rate down to a manageable level. In the case of direct blowback this results in a relatively large reciprocating mass and that translates to recoil that is often more abrupt and violent. In addition the recoil spring in direct blowback firearms must be equally as stout in order to absorb such mass and adequately launch it back forward to chamber the next round. The firearm above shows that delayed operation can still be quite simplistic and effective. I describe delayed action 9mm sub guns as having recoil that a 9mm really should have because often times the direct blowback variants will have recoil that is actually quite sharp and intense for a round operating at 9mm pressures. I have a direct blowback PCC and I would almost swear to you the recoil is worse than that of an AR-15. Once again that sort of makes since because most AR-15’s have some sort of gas operation wether that be Direct impingement or piston operation. Regardless of which one the AR-15 has a delayed operation as the lugs stay locked until gas can interact with the bolt/carrier or the piston can interface with the carrier and that operation cause a delay in unlocking.
Combining a table vid with a range session. Ian is a generous god.
The CZ 61 was the go to for the Good guys and Bad. I used a 32acp version to test out and was shocked how well it ran.
Lol “let’s go see if it works” well hell, I mean that’s their job isn’t it? Haha wonder taking any notes on it or just that chill haha either way, thanks CZ! Love when get to see these obscure guns actually demonstrated
I absolutely love this little job. It reminds me of a late 90s early 2000s video game smg. It's the right kind of pdw where it's a large useable pistol while having a low profile and useable stock. The only thing I'd like to see changed is a non reciprocating bolt handle accessible from both sides.
Also. Imagine it in .30 SC.
Maybe they couldn't persuade one of the employees to shoot it, but Ian was happy to try, now CZ are considering a new line of polymer PDWS of this design, but in more potent caliber, and barrels adopted for suppression and a rail on top, aimed to be max 1,0 kg unloaded, with a sling attachment in the back, caliber to whish for, 30SC, 10Auto, 7.5 Brno, 5.7 FN and if it is room, 30 Carbine.
“Guns are meant to be shot” love the attitude
7:20 This is not quite right. The head starts to move backwards as soon as the cartridge is pushed backwards by the expanding gases. If the head would by held in place by the leaver, there would be no force available to move the leaver. Head, leaver and carrier are all moving together but at differed speeds.
If the head would be held in place with no movement, there would be an outside force necessary to move it. This can be done by recoil (P.38) ore by a gas system (vz.58). But here the bolt head is moving the leaver, like in the FA MAS or the AA-52.
Correct, every mechanically delayed blowback system works like this.
That's exactly what was said and demonstrated. The force exerted pushes straight backwards on the bolt, the lever is in the way, it unlocks and moves the carrier, and the entire carrier group moves backwards.
@@KirkHermary 6:50 "The bolt itself can't start moving, until the leaver retracted all the way up here." No, the bolt is free to move from the very beginning, but it is slowed down until the leaver is fully retracted.
charging handle reciprocates a long way but about perfect rate of fire. more than a grease gun but less than an M11. the m11 empties the mag before you can get off the trigger almost.
Given the recent introduction of .30 Super Carry, I could see revisiting this creating an interesting product.