Are we to believe that the designers and audio engineers at these companies don't run the same audio tests and are unaware, or jaded, of the results? Aren't the frequency signatures what makes these speakers unique? Otherwise they'd all have generic flat frequency lines
@@gcahill51 it’s a valid point. Danny, however, is finding clear flaws like bad crossovers, impedance issues, bad design, off axis issues. He’s right that you can’t really listen to a speaker on axis. You will be getting reflections and those reflections will amplify any issues. I noticed that B&W showed its drivers and crossovers in the 700 S3 series and I feel that’s Danny’s doing as he’s torn apart a lot of B&W speakers. The days of hiding cheesy parts in expensive gear are gone😊. He’ll open them up and show you the guts. For many people DSP corrects some. of these things and alleviate the brightness of a B&W speaker. Actually, in my case it adds +9db to my high frequencies tweeters. It’s absurd…
After watching several of his films, I simply stopped believing in this wisdom. All of them, except his modifications, are hopeless. With all due respect, but first of all, large companies producing loudspeakers do not have worse engineers. "Up and down" are probably often intentional to eliminate bands undesirable by the creators. Receiving sounds through the ear is not a transmission between devices.
Its the ATC SMC11 you have on hand. It's a domestic monitor and not their studio line. They voiced that speaker like that as it is preferred for domestic use.
Agree fully, the SCM11 are deliberately voiced that way as they are hi-fi reference (not studio reference) speakers. That way, if recordings do end up being made overly ‘hot’ in the recording studio, then these speakers can tame that ‘heat’ when listening through them at home. ATC know what they’re doing.
Just been switching the caps of my Sansui LM220-speaker-crossovers with Jantzen foil-caps. In addition I changed the cables inside the cabinet. Now I've got killer-sound in these +40yr old speakers. Highly recommended. Thanks for your channel. It encouraged me to do this DIY-tuning!
I have a pair of epos 22 loudspeakers- minimalist first order crossover with an aluminum dome tweeter and woofer all designed by Robin Marshall who has a PhD in Physics and who played the bass. The sound of Epos- 22 with the big Exposure Amps and Pre-amps with two Rel-S5 subwoofers, fully spec Linn lp-12, and Linn Akurate DSM all room corrected for the bass is musicality with such palpability-the direct sound, the speed, the pace, the rhythm, the timing, the dynamics and the clarity is goose bumps- head shaking all with emotions. Robin Marshal’s design of the Epos ES-14 and Epos Es-11 where designed by ear also- not just a frequency response and ect. Did Danny listen to the Epos-12 on a truly high- end system before he tries to “improve” the sound? Maybe he should talk to Robin Marshal - PhD in Physics- who designed the loudspeakers and wrote a twenty- one page white paper explaining the designs of the Epos-14 loudspeakers with a simple first order crossover using a single capacitor. Robin Marshall had to design the tweeter and woofer in order to pull of his simple first order crossover design.
There are pros and cons to this type of design. And in this case the designer may have left a little on the table. Several issues have been overlooked. Stay tuned till next week....
Totally agree, Robin designed some great sounding speakers for Epos as well as some of the earlier Monitor Audio's. These type of designs may not be technically perfect and even sound coloured but boy do they produce great sounding music. The simplistic design of the x-over needs quality drivers to work properly but produce excellent efficiency and a very dynamic realistic live sound. I found through experimentations a few years ago this and the earlier Monitor Audio designs could be improved even further by implementing a third order Butterworth on the tweeter (2nd on the bass/mid driver) crossing at around 3.2Khz. Then by using a strut brace from left to right 2/3 of the way up the cabinet (Helped with the resonance from 450-550Hz) and careful placement and amount of acoustic foam and a little real wool wadding gave the right amount of damping. I used Ansar supersound caps which I found provided a sweet transparent sound and were better in my opinion than many expensive ones I tried. Sold them off a few years ago and regretted it ever since. Most speakers I hear these days south of £2000 sound pretty bad and are poorly made.
ATC make quality products, they're not cheap but there's some serious engineering behind them. There are made in my home town and I know people who have worked there over the years. A decent company worth supporting IMHO.
I also live locally and have had a tour of the premises and a session in their listening room. It's not flashy or amazingly high tech in terms of processes - but it's clear that the company has a very clear philosophy and understands exactly what it's doing. The active speakers are stunning, but the passives and electronics are very intelligently designed.
The ATC crossovers have about 5 weeks play time on them now. Absolutely fantastic. One of the biggest bang for the buck in my 30 years assembling and tweaking audio systems. The increase in detail, separation, clarity without a hint of harshness is astounding. Bumping up the tweeter level just a touch was the right call. Thanks Danny!
You probably dont give a shit but does someone know a tool to get back into an Instagram account? I somehow lost my login password. I would appreciate any help you can offer me
@Juelz Van i really appreciate your reply. I got to the site thru google and im trying it out now. I see it takes quite some time so I will get back to you later with my results.
@@РуфатШиралиев-л8л I’ve never seen any marketing for ATC. Furthermore, they implement one of the most over-built drivers I’ve ever seen. Look at that magnet.
@@fabers92 HI Mr. 👋 Mr. Look carefully, please.. ATC woofers very primitive driver, which have very heavy membrane and very cheap low effective magnet, therefore ATC have catastrophic low sensitivity 85 db!! Yes, two metal flanges looks big, but magnet very thin and cheap. Result - low effective magnet system.. And, Mr. Look, please inside ATC 19. ATC use extremely thin and cheap speaker wires and very cheap crossover parts - primitive budget yellow capacitors, look: www.lowbeats.de/site/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/ATC_SCM19-Frequenzweiche.jpg
I loved my B&W 602s2 speakers, it’s exactly the sound I love. After years of trying other speakers I have ended up with a pair of 607s and I love them. Perhaps some people (like me) just enjoy that sound of the B&Ws.
My DM602's are still going strong after nearly 25 years. I've taken great care of them throughout their life, and they still look and sound great. I even still have the original packaging to use when moving house!
I bought some 706s and I liked the sound of them on UA-cam. They are expensive but I'm a speaker freak and I design and build my own and have a few sets (both single driver speakers and coaxials). I do it just for fun and by ear in a room. But the bass intensity changes a lot as I walk around the room and have no idea how much bass to put into my speakers (the room is so acoustically bad). And it's easy to get used to an inaccurate sound. So I needed monitors and I needed expensive ones so I can frame the docket and compare them to mine for less than half the price (if I sell any). I don't know if mine are better or worse but since I bought the 706s my speakers sound millions better than they ever did (by a large measure)! Mine built ones I just finished are coaxial and they have the point source advantage over the B&Ws. And two of my friends (the only ones listening then) both prefered mine. Maybe cos of the point source 2-way sound. But that would not have been possible without the amazing 706s. Do you like coaxials? Maybe you can make some out of separate drivers: ua-cam.com/video/4LJE8DNZZbA/v-deo.html
The first time I listened to the EPOS I was totally mesmerized and just sat there for 25 minutes listening to the music and forgot about equipment in the system. One of the few small speakers that captured the "feel" of the music being played.
Yep, bought a pair 7 months ago for my studio. Sitting about 53" from speaker to ear. Really love these speakers. Stereo image and midrange on these is magic. I use a sub just slightly. Dont really need it with these but I just like tiny bit extra bass so I can hear those really low frequencies when composing.
You did a very very good job. Most audiophiles (including myself) do not have a clue about any designs or quality of the engineering behind the sound that we hear. We just relied on those reviewers who are more of a salesman than engineers. Now I can say that ATC is very well made speakers. Please do more of this Strip Analysis of audio gears.
Danny Richie hit the ballpark with the ATCs. Those who disagree, well I've been reading, studying, and designing speakers since the late 70s, Danny knows his stuff. Please use his expertise if you want the most bang for the buck. And if you can afford it, his larger open baffle designs are fabulous, competing with other designs that are many, many times the price. I've heard his rooms at RMAF shows and as I was Al Stiefel's partner along with Marjorie, I know of what I say. Also we have used his Soni-Caps and they are very good.
The ATC is much more money than the other speakers. Not surprising it is better designed. I think they are around 3 thousand a pair, The others well under a thousand.
Nice to see that you found something you like. I suspect the slight downward slope across most of the frequency range of the ATC is intentional, done so that when they are used as near field monitors (the engineer probably seated only three to five feet from the monitors) the response will match the gently down-slopping response that you would hear in a far-field listening environment, such as a well tuned mastering studio. If your customer is using them as mini-monitors on stands in a reasonably large room, your idea to make them measure flat at one meter would make complete sense. Many pro near-field monitors come with a high frequency slope or level adjustment, to accommodate these two different use cases without modification.
I have newer owned an ATC loudspeaker but I think they possess fine engineering. Obviously the more expensive the better. What has gotten me to write here, is that I think their two way bass driver possess a rare but great engineering tweak. If I get it correct (and I am not 100% sure) then the 3 inch voice coil is attached directly to the 3 inch center dust cap. The outer part of the cone however is attached with a flexible inner surround which decouples the cone at higher frequencies. So it’s actually 3 way speaker. This concept improves the drivers dispersion and reduce standing waves and breakups in the main part of the cone. Lovely design feature if my memory serves me well, otherwise ATC must implement it just to keep me happy. Thanks for a lovely channel and greetings from Denmark.
Hi Klaus, I own the same ATC SCM11 speakers in Danny’s video and you are absolutely right, the design is effectively 3-way. Although on the back of the speaker there are only 2 sets of binding posts (not the typical 3 sets of posts that you’d find on a typical 3-way design). So perhaps is best to think of the SCM11 as a 2-way-3-way design! You should try a pair, they sound wonderful.
I had a pair of those 602's for 18 years, replaced a tweeter when an amp discharged a cap at an inopportune time, really loved them but a woofer needed replacing, so I just changed out the entire 7.1 system, with B&W of course.
these are actually my speakers, and every thing you said is 100% true (rega integrated, bel cato dac). I need to make the Epos stands higher though for my seating position: which is why I sent these to Danny to begin with to see what the fall off was that I was experiencing.
But, their x-over sucks (not affiliated with Danny at all), and the 4kHz cone resonance surely sings on it's own - thankfully it's polypropylene cone that has decent self damping so it's not as agressive (smooth sounding) as better paper or kevlar, carbon fiber cones. My friends would laugh at me if I would show them something like that. I bet proper x-over around 2.5-3kHz that attenuates the cone break-up, levels tweeter a little and puts drivers into phase alignment would make into way nicer sounding spkrs.
Danny is particularly lucid in this video. I’ve been wondering if he was ever going to open up and explain how he interpreted those graphs. Thanks for being so generous Danny.
I like the video s but I have unusual speakers old advent's. I had to replace the woofers I could not fine parts I used,12 woofers from a car part store crossover is a switch for high & low
Those B&Ws were my first set of speakers back in about 1999, and I thought they were the bees knees: they played as loud as my friend's Mission floorstanders and I used to get up close and listen to that fizzy tweeter - aged 14 that basically amounted to what we thought was more detail which was what it was all about (and volume)! Looking back it was totally weird that two kids out of 6 in a boarding house dormitory had huge speakers set up. The rest of them must have hated us.
I've been in love with that ES12 when i listened it on a friend's shop. it was on sale and ive been saving for it until someone steal that dream of mine. can't find another ES12 on sale locally until now. im aware of the ridiculously simple crossover and intrigued by how it sounds from such a simple crossover
I owned the previous Epos ES11 (used the same simple crossover) and they were boomy and dull in my living room, but as near-field monitors there were amazing - Very live and detailed sound, but not harsh either.... Had a shop demo of the B&W 601 in the mid 90s, and thought they were dull as hell. I can also remember the treble not integrating with the mids and standing out like a sore thumb. I had a non-audiophile mate with me and even he thought they were terrible.
I love how you put a lot of effort into making the response as flat as possible. I hear so many audiophiles say "Bah.. You should never look at speaker response specs they mean nothing". I call bullshit on them. Specifications and frequency curves are the only way to compare one speaker against another with all other variables being taken out of the mix like room acoustics and source signals. Love your channel Danny. Keep up the good work!
That's not the only criteria! Don't forget woody, punchy, soulful, captivating, harsh/sibilant, 2D/3D/holographic, and all the characteristics of materials (skin, metal, wood, ceramic, glass, etc). Amplitude vs frequency does nothing if the realism and detail isn't cohesive and believable. We've all heard flat curves which still sounded harsh...
I have sold hifi for 10 years and owned ATC for 15 years and they are under priced for what you get. The fit, finish and engineering is superb. Their drivers are second to non and sonically the easiest to sell when compared to other speakers. You do have to partner them well with good grippy amplifiers (good low volume current). I have had SCM40 MK1, SCM40 MK2, SCM40 Active and love them all. Got SCM50A on order now. Can't wait
Prior to buying my SCM20ASLs I was looking at a pair of passive 20s which I was tempted to try with one of my vintage Amcron (Crown) PA amps. Loads of current available and even the smallest one is 300Watts per channel. The biggest is 2500! I recall reading a review of a Crown DC300A used as a hifi amp and how well it performed.
@Zvonimir Komar I have used many amps but the ATC SIA2-150 and / or CA2 P1 P2 combo blow away most amplifiers and quite a few levels above the 909 and will lift the 40s to another level. I do like 909s though as I think they offer great value.
@@stephenclark5218 Excellent setup. I used to have CA2 with 2x P1 running bi amp. One P1 for bass. Going active was an all new ball game but it is also a lot of money in one go.
Good to know that my ATC11’s get a thumb up from Danny. I don’t use them as studio monitors so don’t need the 1 dB lift in the highs. May consider the rest of the upgrade though. Thanks Danny!
An interesting mix of traditional (ATC), high tech (B&W) and innovation (Epos). I would have gone for the Epos ES14 as it’s a purer version of the design. If there’s a bit of mid bass downward roll off, position the speaker next to the rear wall. Unless I’ve missed it there’s quite a bit of driver and crossover matching. Then there’s the size and scale of each of the manufacturers. I’ve still got some ES14s. They still stand up today as musical and communicative. It’s music for pleasure for me!!
Danny, great video, as usual, but there is two things I would love to see in the future in your vids: 1. The final, improved results of all 3 of these, along with what you did and how much it all costs. 2. Somehow if you could incorporate some kind of pointer or something on screen when you are showing and talking about all of the various response graphs, that way you can clearly point to the exact spots on the graph that you are referring to when talking about them, that way more people can clearly visualize exactly what you are talking about, as that would be especially helpful for the less technically inclined, and/or the newbies out there who are trying to learn about speakers but still don't know what everything looks like when trying to interpret all of those graphs, especially the spectral decay 3-D one! Keep up the great work, and if you could somehow find a way to add that final above info./pointer, it would be a huge help in everyone understanding your videos better!
Hi Danny, I think that ATC is from their domestic hifi range, not the pro monitor, so they may have voiced them differently. Also you didn't mention the shape of the box....really interesting series...thanks
I ordered your ATC SCM11 upgrade kit last week and installed it yesterday. Just wanted to say thanks and wow. Really took these to the next level. I can't comment on the bass that much as I use a sub to handle the lows but man the mids and high are gorgeous now. Again thanks for what you do. Please keep it up and love the videos. I am an electronics tech for over 35 years and enjoy your engineering view point.
Hifi is my hobby, I've owned plenty of speakers and components over 30 years. I stopped changing speakers when I bought a second hand pair of ATC's (40's). End game. Very interested in these simple upgrades but I live in Melbourne Australia and I don't know if we have guys like Danny around here.
Thanks Danny for the xover revision help. The ATC SCM11v2 are mine. I've had them for a couple years and I enjoy their sound in my space very much. I felt they were capable of more...hence the parts upgrade. I purchased them used from a gentlemen in the UK, who upgraded to the much larger 19, for $1100 USD shipped. They retail for $2200 USD. MusicDirect has 60-day eval. There was a prior non-v2 version, pre-2013, with a different non-ATC made tweeter and rectangular cabinet. They are made for home use, not studio, and probably why the very high end is rolled off a bit. The woofer is their CLD (constrained layer damping) version unlike the 19 and above that have their SL driver. I understand the SL driver in the 19 weighs as much as the entire model 11. The tweeter is non-S spec. Same drivers are used in the all black, less expensive, SCM12Pro. I drive these with a fine BHK 250 amp and they are paired with two Rythmik L12 sealed subs. They are quite true to the recording but completely unfatiguing and hopefully remain so with the tweeter lift of 1/2-1dB. A couple of parts were missed in the return to me otherwise they be done but soon they should be up and running again. Be well everyone!
@@dannyrichie9743 At 50 hours, the clarity is startling. The highs are a bit shrill but I hope they will settle a bit with more run-in time. Of course it will take weeks to fully asses but so far, not bad. I may revert to the stock tweeter cap and resister combo if the upper end is too much or in time I may adjust (ears, setup, etc.)
@@brettb9600 The Sonicap should only improve clarity and won't give them a shrill sound. Those caps also need a good 100 to 200 hours to settle. So I'd put some time on them and hear what happens. We can also make slight adjustments to the resistors in the tweeter circuit to move the level around slightly. But burn them in well first, and then let me know what you think.
@@dannyrichie9743 120 hours and they are getting really really nice. The shrill top end is gone, the clarity is still astounding and I think they will only continue to improve. Happy! They are significantly more resolving than original.
@@dannyrichie9743 I'm still happy with the sound though the increase in treble does make poor recordings sound worse but good/proper recordings sound fantastic. I have EQ to use to tame the highs of poorly recorded or mastered '80s stuff.
I’m nerve really happy with uTubes suggestions of what I might like until today. I’ve watched one video this morning and learned more in that one video I wished I’d known years ago. I’ll probably be binging on GR-Research videos today. Looking forward to it tho. Probably be contacting you for some update advice on how and where to get it done. Thanks so much.
Fair enough. When I was on the AES Melbourne Section (Australia) committee, Billy Woodman visited and gave a presentation. It must have about 35 years ago. He passed around the legendary 5" dome mid-range driver, which had a huge motor. You needed both hands to hold it. Ever since then I have been interested to see various reviewers comment on the transparency and width of the soundstage.
The curved design of the ATC box tends to act as a brace. It won't eliminate vibrations but the curve makes the side of the case stronger in some dimensions.
EPI had a small two way with only a capacitor for blocking DC to the Tweeter. I sold the hell out of them because they were CLEAN in their presentation. It's why I've waited for a mature, inexpensive, individually amped and EQed to the drivers speaker.
Love your content. Keep it up. Can you do an episode maybe talking about why measurements are mostly great for speaker performance given its characteristics, compared to its true sound which is a combo of parts, and cone materials. In other words, talk about why two speakers that measure the same, could still sound very different.
It always amazes me how a supposedly reputable speaker manufacturer spoils their product for a few dollars worth of crossover components. It's as if the crossover is the very last item to be designed and the budget runs out. Your reviews definitely highlight this.
Sorry about poor english! Danny , about B&W 602, and every two way speaker of 600 series (1,2 and 3); I'm afraid be impossible to fix the problem only by changing it's crossover!! This because Kevlar speakers are woofer, not a mid bass! I own a 601 s3 since 2004. I bought it new! I realized immediately poor hi mids ! It's original crossover have a 6dB 8a cut frequency, around 1khz, to low pass , and a 18dB 8a cut frequency to hi pass filters! There is a hole between woofer and tweeter! No mids!! I put another 2 way crossover , open a low pass filter, to 3,5 khz, but there was a terrible ressonance in hi mids!! Then , the only way to fix this speakers was change to a 3 way crossover , and add a mid range!! I put a JBL titanium drive opened, like a domo drive, without horns!! Sucess! It'a another speaker!!! Don't waste time trying to fix this speaker with 2 way crossovers!! Hugs from Brasil!
Great and informative vid GR... Thanks... Just goes to show, pretty box, poor innards! Another, "you get what you pay for" ... Disappointing cabinet thickness on the ATC's though! Frank.... UK...
Thanks for a very interesting video! The ATC is the right size and shape to be an SCM11, from the Entry Series of the Consumer HiFi side of the range. For completeness the gentleman here (Danny) said the others were the EPOS ES-12 and a B&W 602 s2. [Edit: The ATC is currently available, retail is £1300 in the UK (xe tells me that a hair over $1700 USD. Others are ~20 year old models and only available 2nd hand]
Has everyone forgot about midrange drivers-??? Ive always felt (jmo) a good three way beats a good two way almost every time and im 61 heard lots of speakers, never heard a two way that didnt lack midrange
About a year ago I bought a pair of active SCM20ASLs from a small studio. Despite being “vintage “ they were sonically fine but the cast aluminium cabinets were in need of a refurb. I stripped them down and had the cabs painted. I have them on (very strong) wall brackets and have a self designed and built 120 litre transmission line active sub to help them along. They feature ATCs “Super Linear “ drivers and ClassA amps which help in keeping the room warm. Keep your eyes on the classifieds guys, there are bargains out there. The cost? £825 or less than $1100.
@Zvonimir Komar I found one source that says they run Class A up to two-thirds power and another that says the tweeter amp is fully Class A. Like you say, it doesn't really matter but I do know that the whole aluminium cab is very warm all the time.
This is a general comment rather than about this vid specifically, but I only just started watching this channel and it inspired me to take a look at the crossovers in my Mission 780 speakers. The components are all cheap, and I've tried a quick experimental upgrade. All I've done is replace electrolytic caps with polypropylene caps - nothing special, just some I had lying around. And the improvement is astonishing. It's not subtle, it's jaw-dropping. It's "Wow, was that detail really there on my favourite recordings all along?" I'm going to get some good components and build whole new crossovers now. Many thanks for an excellent channel.
@@frequentlycynical642 As close as I could get them with what I had. The originals were 15uF at 10% tolerance, and I replaced them with a 10uF and 4.7uF in parallel at 5% tolerance (and which actually measured a lot closer than 5%).
@@osliverpool Did your reply end with (and which..... ??? I'll def have to try this. A few bucks could be well spent. My speakers are almost 40 years old, so the effective capacitance may have drifted way off original.
@@frequentlycynical642 It ends "(and which actually measured a lot closer than 5%)". I think replacing your old electrolytics with film caps is well worth trying.
@@osliverpool We know that electrolytics go bad. Why a good audio rebuild includes cap replacement. I looked at a schematic for a three way crossover, as my speakers would be. Caps are used, of course, for high frequency pass through. Also, to drain high frequencies from the woofer and mid range. Why bother at the woofer? Anyway, I can't imagine a capacitor increasing in value, so capacitor aging would probably mean mostly a loss of high frequencies going to the mid-range and tweeter. Hopefully, while I'm off work, I'll open up my speaker cabinet and see what is in there. I've been "into" electronics for some 60 years, so I'm good with this simple project.
You know I never bought a brand new set of speakers. In the late 70's I went to Radio Shack and found a kit to build a speaker cabinet and I did. Filled it with 8" woofer, 4"midrange, and 3"woofer. All from Radio Shack. I loved the sound only could not get a second cabinet later to make it a pair. In the early 80's I went to a local swap Meet and found a pair of heavy speakers were the cabinets were strong. Only black wood. Guts I thought were bad and I paid $20.00. Just then someone wanted the guts, so I sold them to him for $14.00. So, technically out $6.00. I then went to a local Electronic Store that sold all kinds of parts. Sparky Electronics. I bought two each 10" woofers, 4" midrange, 3' speakers, and three way crossovers. The cabinets had great insulation and I fitted them all speakers into the cabinets. Oh, did they sound fantastic. As years went on I replaced the guts from the same place about ten years ago. This time brands were Peerless brand, I even bought out the extra 3 sets they had of tweeters. The store was closing. For when ever. The new guts again out of this world sound. I will never part with them. I later acquired my Dad's old Stereo we had done the same to his around that time. His were two-way but great sound too. His was a 1971 Pioneer receiver, Dual turntable, and DWD speakers ( they are still beautiful cabinets). I use both stereo's today. Sometimes you just have to assemble them for an ideal set of speakers.
Thank you for the informative video. Specially for non hifi pros this brings a real value. Regarding EPOs it would be really interesting to know how the new epos es 14n is being valueated. Because now epos is owned by the praised german accoustics Engineer Mr. Fink and Team who complety reinvented the speaker.
Stereo equipment is the greatest invention, ever! What is great to one, is... meh, to someone else. I learned there is no perfect system. No perfect speaker. Cause you will never, ever, get 100% of people to agree. That to me is the joy. I ran my store for 37 years. My philosophy was very simple... If, when it's all set up, you sit your butt in your listening position. If a giant smile comes across you face, you've chosen correctly!
Wow.. 3 speakers, 3 completely different price points. A small amount of research tells you the B&W retailed around the 600 price point, The EPOS at 1100/pair Not surprised you liked the ATC SM11's Current speaker at $2200/pair! As far as bang for the buck, the B&W's were quite the bargain with B&W manufactured kevlar driver, dome tweeter and tweeter tube right off the Nautilus line and a crossover with air core inductors, poly caps and decent connectors. Good components in a very inexpensive box.
Yes, I agree, plus the Epos is circa 1996 and the B+W is a design from 2002, whereas the ATC is from 2012/3 (though their speaker technology probably doesn't change much!) I have a pair of SCM11's and I really enjoy them. My only real issue is the need for the speakers to be within 40cm/16" of the rear wall, in a carpeted lounge with 2 large squidgy armchairs a few feet from the speakers. 'Not sure what I can do to help with SQ but it would probably involve some major change that my other half would not allow!
I have the ATC SCM19 and could compare them to the SCM11. I think you should try to get a pair of the SCM19. Bought mine used for 1500€ in Germany :-). I also added a SB-1000 subwoofer and use a Yamaha A-S1200 as an amp.
The Epos Ess speaker has two sets of binding posts and I suspect they are designed for active crossovers and bi-amplification. The cap is probably there just for a bit of protection.
It should be stated somewhere in video the original MSRP of each speaker and year of production. I know we can google that, but it would be nice see those important details incorporated into the analysis -especially when you're comparing quality of components. If your objective is NOT a comparative analysis, then I would do a separate video on each speaker, because viewers will automatically compare a $500 B&W to the $2K ATC when analyzed within the same video.
With all due respect, I think you are not giving us "viewers" enough credit for being able to discern the obvious price/quality difference between these speakers. I doubt anyone would think that all of these speakers are in the same cost category just because they're in the same video.
two notes for the curious: 1. phase cancellation is never 100% even if you were to reverse polarity on one of two identical speakers. 2. off axis destructive phase interference between drivers is more pronounced closer to the speaker... *as stated in the video, it only takes 4" off axis to get a reduction in high fq at 1m. but 3m away a 4" off axis deviation will show a much diminished high fq reduction if any. think of how the base of a cone gets larger as the cone gets taller.
8:40 I put ASC panels on the side walls, ceiling and wall behind speakers using a mirror on the side and ceiling and where I see the speaker seated on my chair I put a panel, in that way I kill 80% of multiple reflections creating a much better image making the speakers dissapear Excellent video
Cheesey? First time viewer. I must say that the detail that this guy goes into is exceptional. Well presented videos with all the data and graphs pasted on top of the video. Learnt a few new things so had to subscribe. I will browse his previous videos to see what else he covers. Cheers
i would say of course the ATC is better built, they dont compromise sound quality like the ported designs of the other cabinets here. that shows how they feel about sound.
I've always loved KEF Uniq Q style speakers. I like how it's almost unidirectional. Unfortunately u get good dispersion but weird frequency response. Well, that's why engineering is fun...trying to control the tradeoffs without spending too much money.
My friends dad had, and still does I think , a pair of EPOS ES14s. Back then (25 year ago) I don’t remember them sounding anything special but we only listened to rock and grunge and our reference was in car amp driven 6 x 9s that thumped out rock tracks.
Hi Danny. You mentioned you would like to replace the inner wiring. What cables would you recommend not changing the character of a speaker? Hope to get answer from you. Regards Michael
What you really want are speakers sold straight from the makers, usually small businesses to you. So long the engineering is competent, speakers like that are gonna beat everything at their price point. That's just how it works in hifi. I have a pair of 8" locally manufactured Elfton Vigo speakers (mk2) and they just shoot dead anything you could compare them to price-wise, they are not "made to price point", they set a different standard (of course, so long you live in center Europe, you would have to somehow import them otherwise). I feel lucky I found these, because there just are basically none like them around. A similar experience you might get from competently designed DIY, but unless you're a carpenter, it just wouldn't really have the high-end looks (but maybe you don't care for that).
First order crossovers are great cos no information is short circuited and so isn't lost. Only diminished where necessary. My snake oil. Also never resist a tweeter is my snake oil. And have the terminals of the tweeter well twisted just before the tweeter (not soldered). Just before the soldered terminals on the tweeter. My snake oil I found out by soldering the crossover on a pair of speakers I made. After that they sounded more "scratchy". So that's why I twist the tweeter wires. lol I don't listen to med driver in the box or out of the box. If you tap a driver in the box it's a warm sound. If you tap a completely open driver it will hardly make a sound and is a cold sound. But if you place the driver near the hole and the driver is semi open it will also sound warm when you tap the cone. With a bass vented speaker hole and the driver near it I get an open warm sound instead of the usual closed in warm sound. It's a sound that is different to "normal" med driver mounting. For coaxial speakers it's possible to raise the coaxial driver just above the speaker hole (with spacers) if you make a 2" deep tube running inward around the speaker hole. Surprisingly it works and sounds like any other bass vent except it's completely point source. To make a full range driver have more khz put a 1 cm hole in the dust cap and glue a 1 cm x 3mm skinny diamond shape piece of foil (with pointy ends) over the hole. The ends horizontally glued to the edges of the hole. Use coffee can seal stiff foil. It's tedious but rewarding. You will hear serious cymbals! FR not muffly!
Hey, first of all thanks for all information you posted on your channel - it is pure 💎 I got a question for you, have you ever seen atc scm 35? Does they have same issues with thickness and crossover need to be fixed?
alot of speaker upgrade reviews but it would be nice to hear any before after comparison actually ive watched a handfull of his speaker vids and have not seen or heard any speakers under load making music
I just stumbled across this video, I bought a pair of Epos Epic 2s off of CL, awhile back. One of the best speakers I've heard. I like them better than my Triangle Bro3! Sounds really, really good with my Fisher 400.
I have a pair of ATC SCM100's I bought them over 20 years ago couldn't afford the A's but being a 3 way cab makes a massive difference, so detailed, I replaced the original tweeters with a pair of Beyma CP21F maybe not the best choice, I understand that being a slot type rotating it 90 degrees gives it a wider dispersion, this I've yet to try.
I don’t mind when price point stuff has some cheap parts, as you mentioned Elacs, but when you have that same problem with 2-3-4 thousand dollar speakers that’s a different story.
Fantastic video! Giving a lot of insights into tweaking in general and how to get in there without ruining the existing engineering. Thank you very much and Merry Christmas
Regarding the Epos. I believe William Burhoe sort of had this idea back in the late sixties when he designed the EPI M100 (Epicure Products). Also, Henry Kloss, although building to a price point, always stressed the importance of a well-designed crossover.
Thing with Room Sound on that ES12 is that you can EQ it , so if say your Speaker has a dip in response in mids off axis , which is a problem due to summing for room sound , you can EQ the Room to boost mids and correct for room sound that lacks mids due to off axis speaker behavior . So its back to ok . That is a mouthful for you ppl not versed in this but but i cant say that simpler . Of course you need to know that , you need to measure that . But if you are to pay big bucks for Crossover and Upgrades you should .Its logical , Measure you speakers ppl , but dont pay big money for measuring microphones , they are all the same , but some cost 50 other 1000 $, to you it wont make any difference since you dont have anechoic chamber
The density of technical information is somehow rendered coherent for a layperson in a really seamless manner. Great work. Thank you!
Are we to believe that the designers and audio engineers at these companies don't run the same audio tests and are unaware, or jaded, of the results? Aren't the frequency signatures what makes these speakers unique? Otherwise they'd all have generic flat frequency lines
@@gcahill51 it’s a valid point. Danny, however, is finding clear flaws like bad crossovers, impedance issues, bad design, off axis issues. He’s right that you can’t really listen to a speaker on axis. You will be getting reflections and those reflections will amplify any issues.
I noticed that B&W showed its drivers and crossovers in the 700 S3 series and I feel that’s Danny’s doing as he’s torn apart a lot of B&W speakers.
The days of hiding cheesy parts in expensive gear are gone😊. He’ll open them up and show you the guts. For many people DSP corrects some. of these things and alleviate the brightness of a B&W speaker. Actually, in my case it adds +9db to my high frequencies tweeters. It’s absurd…
After watching several of his films, I simply stopped believing in this wisdom. All of them, except his modifications, are hopeless. With all due respect, but first of all, large companies producing loudspeakers do not have worse engineers. "Up and down" are probably often intentional to eliminate bands undesirable by the creators. Receiving sounds through the ear is not a transmission between devices.
Its the ATC SMC11 you have on hand. It's a domestic monitor and not their studio line. They voiced that speaker like that as it is preferred for domestic use.
Atc smc11
Agree fully, the SCM11 are deliberately voiced that way as they are hi-fi reference (not studio reference) speakers. That way, if recordings do end up being made overly ‘hot’ in the recording studio, then these speakers can tame that ‘heat’ when listening through them at home. ATC know what they’re doing.
SCM11 mk2
Just been switching the caps of my Sansui LM220-speaker-crossovers with Jantzen foil-caps. In addition I changed the cables inside the cabinet. Now I've got killer-sound in these +40yr old speakers. Highly recommended. Thanks for your channel. It encouraged me to do this DIY-tuning!
ATC speakers are upper end in price, great video, apparently this is why they get stellar reviews!
Whenever Danny gets a speaker he likes or find kudos, then his voice cracks up in such a sweet way 😀😀😀👍 Your the sonic man.
The Epos are good. Very good. Couple with their open square stands the design is timeless.
Love this channel, this is how speaker designs should be reviewed and analyzed...
I have a pair of epos 22 loudspeakers- minimalist first order crossover with an aluminum dome tweeter and woofer all designed by Robin Marshall who has a PhD in Physics and who played the bass. The sound of Epos- 22 with the big Exposure Amps and Pre-amps with two Rel-S5 subwoofers, fully spec Linn lp-12, and Linn Akurate DSM all room corrected for the bass is musicality with such palpability-the direct sound, the speed, the pace, the rhythm, the timing, the dynamics and the clarity is goose bumps- head shaking all with emotions. Robin Marshal’s design of the Epos ES-14 and Epos Es-11 where designed by ear also- not just a frequency response and ect. Did Danny listen to the Epos-12 on a truly high- end system before he tries to “improve” the sound? Maybe he should talk to Robin Marshal - PhD in Physics- who designed the loudspeakers and wrote a twenty- one page white paper explaining the designs of the Epos-14 loudspeakers with a simple first order crossover using a single capacitor. Robin Marshall had to design the tweeter and woofer in order to pull of his simple first order crossover design.
There are pros and cons to this type of design. And in this case the designer may have left a little on the table. Several issues have been overlooked. Stay tuned till next week....
Totally agree, Robin designed some great sounding speakers for Epos as well as some of the earlier Monitor Audio's. These type of designs may not be technically perfect and even sound coloured but boy do they produce great sounding music. The simplistic design of the x-over needs quality drivers to work properly but produce excellent efficiency and a very dynamic realistic live sound. I found through experimentations a few years ago this and the earlier Monitor Audio designs could be improved even further by implementing a third order Butterworth on the tweeter (2nd on the bass/mid driver) crossing at around 3.2Khz. Then by using a strut brace from left to right 2/3 of the way up the cabinet (Helped with the resonance from 450-550Hz) and careful placement and amount of acoustic foam and a little real wool wadding gave the right amount of damping. I used Ansar supersound caps which I found provided a sweet transparent sound and were better in my opinion than many expensive ones I tried. Sold them off a few years ago and regretted it ever since. Most speakers I hear these days south of £2000 sound pretty bad and are poorly made.
ATC make quality products, they're not cheap but there's some serious engineering behind them. There are made in my home town and I know people who have worked there over the years. A decent company worth supporting IMHO.
Yeah! Absolute stunning quality and true "HI-FI"! The drivers are from exceptional quality, really some of the best available.
I also live locally and have had a tour of the premises and a session in their listening room. It's not flashy or amazingly high tech in terms of processes - but it's clear that the company has a very clear philosophy and understands exactly what it's doing. The active speakers are stunning, but the passives and electronics are very intelligently designed.
I own a pair of ATC SCM7's. They are killer. Unbelievable the quality of sound from such a small box. The speakers are hand built by ATC themselves.
And they cost around 2k.
@@MrWisdom4U a good pair of speakers can give a life time of enjoyment
@@MrWisdom4U That much in the US (I assume you mean dollars)? In the UK they're around £900 or a little less.
The ATC crossovers have about 5 weeks play time on them now. Absolutely fantastic. One of the biggest bang for the buck in my 30 years assembling and tweaking audio systems. The increase in detail, separation, clarity without a hint of harshness is astounding. Bumping up the tweeter level just a touch was the right call. Thanks Danny!
@Brett B ! Did you do the whole upgrade? Also No-Rez and did it stick to that curved inner side? No need to kerf the foam?
@@rikardekvall3433 yes, no-Rez stuck just fine. No worries. Very good upgrade. Give it 100 hours of play to settle.
You probably dont give a shit but does someone know a tool to get back into an Instagram account?
I somehow lost my login password. I would appreciate any help you can offer me
@Raphael Ali instablaster :)
@Juelz Van i really appreciate your reply. I got to the site thru google and im trying it out now.
I see it takes quite some time so I will get back to you later with my results.
ATC, a gem, but not cheap. Good speakers, good sound
For own price ATC made catastrophic cheaply. PMC, ATC, Dynaudio, Focal, B&W made speakers extremely cheaply.. Because made Marketers, no Engineers.
@@РуфатШиралиев-л8л I’ve never seen any marketing for ATC. Furthermore, they implement one of the most over-built drivers I’ve ever seen. Look at that magnet.
@@fabers92 HI Mr. 👋 Mr. Look carefully, please.. ATC woofers very primitive driver, which have very heavy membrane and very cheap low effective magnet, therefore ATC have catastrophic low sensitivity 85 db!! Yes, two metal flanges looks big, but magnet very thin and cheap. Result - low effective magnet system.. And, Mr. Look, please inside ATC 19. ATC use extremely thin and cheap speaker wires and very cheap crossover parts - primitive budget yellow capacitors, look: www.lowbeats.de/site/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/ATC_SCM19-Frequenzweiche.jpg
I loved my B&W 602s2 speakers, it’s exactly the sound I love. After years of trying other speakers I have ended up with a pair of 607s and I love them. Perhaps some people (like me) just enjoy that sound of the B&Ws.
My DM602's are still going strong after nearly 25 years. I've taken great care of them throughout their life, and they still look and sound great. I even still have the original packaging to use when moving house!
maybe a matter of personal taste. even if I forced me to use them, they caused fatigue tbh. still have them, but not using them.
I agree as I have the 602s3.
I have a pair of 607 and found it too forward and bright. Didn't like them until I changed my amp to Hegel H120.
I bought some 706s and I liked the sound of them on UA-cam. They are expensive but I'm a speaker freak and I design and build my own and have a few sets (both single driver speakers and coaxials). I do it just for fun and by ear in a room. But the bass intensity changes a lot as I walk around the room and have no idea how much bass to put into my speakers (the room is so acoustically bad). And it's easy to get used to an inaccurate sound. So I needed monitors and I needed expensive ones so I can frame the docket and compare them to mine for less than half the price (if I sell any). I don't know if mine are better or worse but since I bought the 706s my speakers sound millions better than they ever did (by a large measure)! Mine built ones I just finished are coaxial and they have the point source advantage over the B&Ws. And two of my friends (the only ones listening then) both prefered mine. Maybe cos of the point source 2-way sound. But that would not have been possible without the amazing 706s. Do you like coaxials? Maybe you can make some out of separate drivers: ua-cam.com/video/4LJE8DNZZbA/v-deo.html
The first time I listened to the EPOS I was totally mesmerized and just sat there for 25 minutes listening to the music and forgot about equipment in the system. One of the few small speakers that captured the "feel" of the music being played.
I would argue that’s one of the key advantages of a single cap crossover. I am a Reference 3A addict, and they use the very same approach.
I like ATC, this does not surprise me and I like tweeter rolled off a little too to help with listening fatigue so i'd leave values alone first.
Somebody made a target curve with less treble, I think it was Harman, so it could be by purpose it is like it is.
I own a pair of ATC SCM 25 monitors. They really are worth the money.
Yep, bought a pair 7 months ago for my studio. Sitting about 53" from speaker to ear. Really love these speakers. Stereo image and midrange on these is magic. I use a sub just slightly. Dont really need it with these but I just like tiny bit extra bass so I can hear those really low frequencies when composing.
You did a very very good job. Most audiophiles (including myself) do not have a clue about any designs or quality of the engineering behind the sound that we hear. We just relied on those reviewers who are more of a salesman than engineers. Now I can say that ATC is very well made speakers. Please do more of this Strip Analysis of audio gears.
Danny Richie hit the ballpark with the ATCs. Those who disagree, well I've been reading, studying, and designing speakers since the late 70s, Danny knows his stuff. Please use his expertise if you want the most bang for the buck. And if you can afford it, his larger open baffle designs are fabulous, competing with other designs that are many, many times the price. I've heard his rooms at RMAF shows and as I was Al Stiefel's partner along with Marjorie, I know of what I say. Also we have used his Soni-Caps and they are very good.
The ATC is much more money than the other speakers. Not surprising it is better designed. I think they are around 3 thousand a pair, The others well under a thousand.
The ATC SCM11 speakers are available for £1300 GBP a pair (about $2000 USD)
Nice to see that you found something you like. I suspect the slight downward slope across most of the frequency range of the ATC is intentional, done so that when they are used as near field monitors (the engineer probably seated only three to five feet from the monitors) the response will match the gently down-slopping response that you would hear in a far-field listening environment, such as a well tuned mastering studio. If your customer is using them as mini-monitors on stands in a reasonably large room, your idea to make them measure flat at one meter would make complete sense. Many pro near-field monitors come with a high frequency slope or level adjustment, to accommodate these two different use cases without modification.
I owned a pair of those ATC speakers (SCM 11?) and a pair of the ATC20-2A speakers. Both are great little near-field monitors. Thanks for the video!
I have newer owned an ATC loudspeaker but I think they possess fine engineering. Obviously the more expensive the better. What has gotten me to write here, is that I think their two way bass driver possess a rare but great engineering tweak. If I get it correct (and I am not 100% sure) then the 3 inch voice coil is attached directly to the 3 inch center dust cap. The outer part of the cone however is attached with a flexible inner surround which decouples the cone at higher frequencies. So it’s actually 3 way speaker. This concept improves the drivers dispersion and reduce standing waves and breakups in the main part of the cone. Lovely design feature if my memory serves me well, otherwise ATC must implement it just to keep me happy. Thanks for a lovely channel and greetings from Denmark.
Hi Klaus, I own the same ATC SCM11 speakers in Danny’s video and you are absolutely right, the design is effectively 3-way. Although on the back of the speaker there are only 2 sets of binding posts (not the typical 3 sets of posts that you’d find on a typical 3-way design). So perhaps is best to think of the SCM11 as a 2-way-3-way design! You should try a pair, they sound wonderful.
Seeing the different graphs with the different speakers really helped me understand what been measured.
Thanks Danny👍
I had a pair of those 602's for 18 years, replaced a tweeter when an amp discharged a cap at an inopportune time, really loved them but a woofer needed replacing, so I just changed out the entire 7.1 system, with B&W of course.
I really liked the EPOS,put them on their own stands and use a warmer sounding system with plenty of power and they can shine
these are actually my speakers, and every thing you said is 100% true (rega integrated, bel cato dac). I need to make the Epos stands higher though for my seating position: which is why I sent these to Danny to begin with to see what the fall off was that I was experiencing.
But, their x-over sucks (not affiliated with Danny at all), and the 4kHz cone resonance surely sings on it's own - thankfully it's polypropylene cone that has decent self damping so it's not as agressive (smooth sounding) as better paper or kevlar, carbon fiber cones. My friends would laugh at me if I would show them something like that. I bet proper x-over around 2.5-3kHz that attenuates the cone break-up, levels tweeter a little and puts drivers into phase alignment would make into way nicer sounding spkrs.
Those SCM11v2 are the best speakers I’ve heard for the price.
Danny is particularly lucid in this video. I’ve been wondering if he was ever going to open up and explain how he interpreted those graphs. Thanks for being so generous Danny.
Like this: ua-cam.com/video/fmcngRdm4kg/v-deo.html
I like the video s but I have unusual speakers old advent's. I had to replace the woofers I could not fine parts I used,12 woofers from a car part store crossover is a switch for high & low
Kudus to Danny;-)
Very interesting to see what's inside, and the plots. There has to be a follow up!
Kudos to ATC!
Those B&Ws were my first set of speakers back in about 1999, and I thought they were the bees knees: they played as loud as my friend's Mission floorstanders and I used to get up close and listen to that fizzy tweeter - aged 14 that basically amounted to what we thought was more detail which was what it was all about (and volume)! Looking back it was totally weird that two kids out of 6 in a boarding house dormitory had huge speakers set up. The rest of them must have hated us.
I've been in love with that ES12 when i listened it on a friend's shop. it was on sale and ive been saving for it until someone steal that dream of mine. can't find another ES12 on sale locally until now. im aware of the ridiculously simple crossover and intrigued by how it sounds from such a simple crossover
I owned the previous Epos ES11 (used the same simple crossover) and they were boomy and dull in my living room, but as near-field monitors there were amazing - Very live and detailed sound, but not harsh either.... Had a shop demo of the B&W 601 in the mid 90s, and thought they were dull as hell. I can also remember the treble not integrating with the mids and standing out like a sore thumb. I had a non-audiophile mate with me and even he thought they were terrible.
I love how you put a lot of effort into making the response as flat as possible. I hear so many audiophiles say "Bah.. You should never look at speaker response specs they mean nothing". I call bullshit on them. Specifications and frequency curves are the only way to compare one speaker against another with all other variables being taken out of the mix like room acoustics and source signals. Love your channel Danny. Keep up the good work!
That's not the only criteria! Don't forget woody, punchy, soulful, captivating, harsh/sibilant, 2D/3D/holographic, and all the characteristics of materials (skin, metal, wood, ceramic, glass, etc). Amplitude vs frequency does nothing if the realism and detail isn't cohesive and believable. We've all heard flat curves which still sounded harsh...
I have sold hifi for 10 years and owned ATC for 15 years and they are under priced for what you get. The fit, finish and engineering is superb. Their drivers are second to non and sonically the easiest to sell when compared to other speakers. You do have to partner them well with good grippy amplifiers (good low volume current). I have had SCM40 MK1, SCM40 MK2, SCM40 Active and love them all. Got SCM50A on order now. Can't wait
I agree with every thing you say. I have scm 40 mk2. I use atc ca2 pre amp
P2 power amp, i would not change my system for anything.
Prior to buying my SCM20ASLs I was looking at a pair of passive 20s which I was tempted to try with one of my vintage Amcron (Crown) PA amps. Loads of current available and even the smallest one is 300Watts per channel. The biggest is 2500! I recall reading a review of a Crown DC300A used as a hifi amp and how well it performed.
@Zvonimir Komar I have used many amps but the ATC SIA2-150 and / or CA2 P1 P2 combo blow away most amplifiers and quite a few levels above the 909 and will lift the 40s to another level. I do like 909s though as I think they offer great value.
@@stephenclark5218 Excellent setup. I used to have CA2 with 2x P1 running bi amp. One P1 for bass. Going active was an all new ball game but it is also a lot of money in one go.
It amuses me that Danny thinks he knows better than the engineers at ATC regarding speaker design.
Good to know that my ATC11’s get a thumb up from Danny. I don’t use them as studio monitors so don’t need the 1 dB lift in the highs. May consider the rest of the upgrade though.
Thanks Danny!
Will be very cool to see a follow up video after you have applied your various suggested upgrades to each speaker. eager to see that one!
Thanks again Danny. You just explained the problem I've been dealing with designing a new setup.
An interesting mix of traditional (ATC), high tech (B&W) and innovation (Epos). I would have gone for the Epos ES14 as it’s a purer version of the design. If there’s a bit of mid bass downward roll off, position the speaker next to the rear wall. Unless I’ve missed it there’s quite a bit of driver and crossover matching. Then there’s the size and scale of each of the manufacturers. I’ve still got some ES14s. They still stand up today as musical and communicative. It’s music for pleasure for me!!
I wouldn't call ATC and Epos low tech (as opposed to B&W high tech) - more like emphasizing different aspects of the speaker design.
Danny, great video, as usual, but there is two things I would love to see in the future in your vids:
1. The final, improved results of all 3 of these, along with what you did and how much it all costs.
2. Somehow if you could incorporate some kind of pointer or something on screen when you are showing and talking about all of the various response graphs, that way you can clearly point to the exact spots on the graph that you are referring to when talking about them, that way more people can clearly visualize exactly what you are talking about, as that would be especially helpful for the less technically inclined, and/or the newbies out there who are trying to learn about speakers but still don't know what everything looks like when trying to interpret all of those graphs, especially the spectral decay 3-D one!
Keep up the great work, and if you could somehow find a way to add that final above info./pointer, it would be a huge help in everyone understanding your videos better!
Finally a channel which explains the mechanics of speakers in “English”. Thank you.
Hi Danny, I think that ATC is from their domestic hifi range, not the pro monitor, so they may have voiced them differently. Also you didn't mention the shape of the box....really interesting series...thanks
The pro equivalent of this model looks to be the SCM12 Pro. These look like the SCM11. Same drivers, but cabinet shape different.
For me a great speaker is the one that makes me FEEL the music and draws me in.
true for me screw the graph
Its the EPOS.. I was blown away by the ES14..
I ordered your ATC SCM11 upgrade kit last week and installed it yesterday. Just wanted to say thanks and wow. Really took these to the next level. I can't comment on the bass that much as I use a sub to handle the lows but man the mids and high are gorgeous now. Again thanks for what you do. Please keep it up and love the videos. I am an electronics tech for over 35 years and enjoy your engineering view point.
Did you also add the Miflex bypass cap?
How much is the upgrade kit?
Any chance in presenting a list of other consumer grade speakers you like? Not sure if you've already done this.
Very interesting I do really enjoy your speaker break downs and evaluation. Thanks Danny
I could watch these videos all day... learning constantly!
Had and still have the EPOS ES14s, also had the ES30s for some years, now I have the ATC SCM40s. I must have good taste!!
I have owned Epos Es14s simply the best
Hifi is my hobby, I've owned plenty of speakers and components over 30 years. I stopped changing speakers when I bought a second hand pair of ATC's (40's). End game. Very interested in these simple upgrades but I live in Melbourne Australia and I don't know if we have guys like Danny around here.
Thanks Danny for the xover revision help. The ATC SCM11v2 are mine. I've had them for a couple years and I enjoy their sound in my space very much. I felt they were capable of more...hence the parts upgrade. I purchased them used from a gentlemen in the UK, who upgraded to the much larger 19, for $1100 USD shipped. They retail for $2200 USD. MusicDirect has 60-day eval. There was a prior non-v2 version, pre-2013, with a different non-ATC made tweeter and rectangular cabinet. They are made for home use, not studio, and probably why the very high end is rolled off a bit. The woofer is their CLD (constrained layer damping) version unlike the 19 and above that have their SL driver. I understand the SL driver in the 19 weighs as much as the entire model 11. The tweeter is non-S spec. Same drivers are used in the all black, less expensive, SCM12Pro. I drive these with a fine BHK 250 amp and they are paired with two Rythmik L12 sealed subs. They are quite true to the recording but completely unfatiguing and hopefully remain so with the tweeter lift of 1/2-1dB. A couple of parts were missed in the return to me otherwise they be done but soon they should be up and running again. Be well everyone!
Let us know how they sound after the upgrade.
@@dannyrichie9743 At 50 hours, the clarity is startling. The highs are a bit shrill but I hope they will settle a bit with more run-in time. Of course it will take weeks to fully asses but so far, not bad. I may revert to the stock tweeter cap and resister combo if the upper end is too much or in time I may adjust (ears, setup, etc.)
@@brettb9600 The Sonicap should only improve clarity and won't give them a shrill sound. Those caps also need a good 100 to 200 hours to settle. So I'd put some time on them and hear what happens. We can also make slight adjustments to the resistors in the tweeter circuit to move the level around slightly. But burn them in well first, and then let me know what you think.
@@dannyrichie9743 120 hours and they are getting really really nice. The shrill top end is gone, the clarity is still astounding and I think they will only continue to improve. Happy! They are significantly more resolving than original.
@@dannyrichie9743 I'm still happy with the sound though the increase in treble does make poor recordings sound worse but good/proper recordings sound fantastic. I have EQ to use to tame the highs of poorly recorded or mastered '80s stuff.
I’m nerve really happy with uTubes suggestions of what I might like until today. I’ve watched one video this morning and learned more in that one video I wished I’d known years ago. I’ll probably be binging on GR-Research videos today. Looking forward to it tho. Probably be contacting you for some update advice on how and where to get it done. Thanks so much.
It should be noted that the ATC and B&W are not the same price bracket. Thanks for all the technical information, i'm learning so much :-)
Oh of coarse, but I thought it would still be an interesting comparison.
Fair enough. When I was on the AES Melbourne Section (Australia) committee, Billy Woodman visited and gave a presentation. It must have about 35 years ago. He passed around the legendary 5" dome mid-range driver, which had a huge motor. You needed both hands to hold it. Ever since then I have been interested to see various reviewers comment on the transparency and width of the soundstage.
A very interesting video!!!! I'm not an engineer or loudspeaker expert but I really appreciate your insights and obvious expertise!!!
I had the ATC SCM20 pro and the SCM300's. I should have never sold them!
The curved design of the ATC box tends to act as a brace. It won't eliminate vibrations but the curve makes the side of the case stronger in some dimensions.
EPI had a small two way with only a capacitor for blocking DC to the Tweeter. I sold the hell out of them because they were CLEAN in their presentation. It's why I've waited for a mature, inexpensive, individually amped and EQed to the drivers speaker.
The curved sides of the ATC cabinet have to help a little bit?
Love your content. Keep it up. Can you do an episode maybe talking about why measurements are mostly great for speaker performance given its characteristics, compared to its true sound which is a combo of parts, and cone materials. In other words, talk about why two speakers that measure the same, could still sound very different.
Okay, I'll try to figure out a way to put that together.
It always amazes me how a supposedly reputable speaker manufacturer spoils their product for a few dollars worth of crossover components. It's as if the crossover is the very last item to be designed and the budget runs out. Your reviews definitely highlight this.
Sorry about poor english! Danny , about B&W 602, and every two way speaker of 600 series (1,2 and 3); I'm afraid be impossible to fix the problem only by changing it's crossover!! This because Kevlar speakers are woofer, not a mid bass! I own a 601 s3 since 2004. I bought it new! I realized immediately poor hi mids ! It's original crossover have a 6dB 8a cut frequency, around 1khz, to low pass , and a 18dB 8a cut frequency to hi pass filters! There is a hole between woofer and tweeter! No mids!! I put another 2 way crossover , open a low pass filter, to 3,5 khz, but there was a terrible ressonance in hi mids!! Then , the only way to fix this speakers was change to a 3 way crossover , and add a mid range!! I put a JBL titanium drive opened, like a domo drive, without horns!! Sucess! It'a another speaker!!! Don't waste time trying to fix this speaker with 2 way crossovers!! Hugs from Brasil!
I forgot to say: the original B&W hi pass filter is a 18dB 8a 4khz cut.
Great and informative vid GR...
Thanks...
Just goes to show, pretty box, poor innards!
Another, "you get what you pay for" ...
Disappointing cabinet thickness on the ATC's though!
Frank.... UK...
Thanks for a very interesting video!
The ATC is the right size and shape to be an SCM11, from the Entry Series of the Consumer HiFi side of the range.
For completeness the gentleman here (Danny) said the others were the EPOS ES-12 and a B&W 602 s2.
[Edit: The ATC is currently available, retail is £1300 in the UK (xe tells me that a hair over $1700 USD. Others are ~20 year old models and only available 2nd hand]
so it is nothing to do with studio monitoring
@@dannyjonze the studio equivalent is their SCM12 Pro
Has everyone forgot about midrange drivers-??? Ive always felt (jmo) a good three way beats a good two way almost every time and im 61 heard lots of speakers, never heard a two way that didnt lack midrange
About a year ago I bought a pair of active SCM20ASLs from a small studio. Despite being “vintage “ they were sonically fine but the cast aluminium cabinets were in need of a refurb. I stripped them down and had the cabs painted. I have them on (very strong) wall brackets and have a self designed and built 120 litre transmission line active sub to help them along. They feature ATCs “Super Linear “ drivers and ClassA amps which help in keeping the room warm. Keep your eyes on the classifieds guys, there are bargains out there. The cost? £825 or less than $1100.
@Zvonimir Komar I found one source that says they run Class A up to two-thirds power and another that says the tweeter amp is fully Class A. Like you say, it doesn't really matter but I do know that the whole aluminium cab is very warm all the time.
Crazy bargain! well done.
This is a general comment rather than about this vid specifically, but I only just started watching this channel and it inspired me to take a look at the crossovers in my Mission 780 speakers. The components are all cheap, and I've tried a quick experimental upgrade. All I've done is replace electrolytic caps with polypropylene caps - nothing special, just some I had lying around. And the improvement is astonishing. It's not subtle, it's jaw-dropping. It's "Wow, was that detail really there on my favourite recordings all along?" I'm going to get some good components and build whole new crossovers now. Many thanks for an excellent channel.
Were they of the same value?
@@frequentlycynical642 As close as I could get them with what I had. The originals were 15uF at 10% tolerance, and I replaced them with a 10uF and 4.7uF in parallel at 5% tolerance (and which actually measured a lot closer than 5%).
@@osliverpool Did your reply end with (and which..... ???
I'll def have to try this. A few bucks could be well spent. My speakers are almost 40 years old, so the effective capacitance may have drifted way off original.
@@frequentlycynical642 It ends "(and which actually measured a lot closer than 5%)". I think replacing your old electrolytics with film caps is well worth trying.
@@osliverpool We know that electrolytics go bad. Why a good audio rebuild includes cap replacement. I looked at a schematic for a three way crossover, as my speakers would be. Caps are used, of course, for high frequency pass through. Also, to drain high frequencies from the woofer and mid range. Why bother at the woofer?
Anyway, I can't imagine a capacitor increasing in value, so capacitor aging would probably mean mostly a loss of high frequencies going to the mid-range and tweeter.
Hopefully, while I'm off work, I'll open up my speaker cabinet and see what is in there. I've been "into" electronics for some 60 years, so I'm good with this simple project.
You know I never bought a brand new set of speakers. In the late 70's I went to Radio Shack and found a kit to build a speaker cabinet and I did. Filled it with 8" woofer, 4"midrange, and 3"woofer. All from Radio Shack. I loved the sound only could not get a second cabinet later to make it a pair. In the early 80's I went to a local swap Meet and found a pair of heavy speakers were the cabinets were strong. Only black wood. Guts I thought were bad and I paid $20.00. Just then someone wanted the guts, so I sold them to him for $14.00. So, technically out $6.00. I then went to a local Electronic Store that sold all kinds of parts. Sparky Electronics. I bought two each 10" woofers, 4" midrange, 3' speakers, and three way crossovers. The cabinets had great insulation and I fitted them all speakers into the cabinets. Oh, did they sound fantastic. As years went on I replaced the guts from the same place about ten years ago. This time brands were Peerless brand, I even bought out the extra 3 sets they had of tweeters. The store was closing. For when ever. The new guts again out of this world sound. I will never part with them. I later acquired my Dad's old Stereo we had done the same to his around that time. His were two-way but great sound too. His was a 1971 Pioneer receiver, Dual turntable, and DWD speakers ( they are still beautiful cabinets). I use both stereo's today. Sometimes you just have to assemble them for an ideal set of speakers.
Thank you for the informative video. Specially for non hifi pros this brings a real value. Regarding EPOs it would be really interesting to know how the new epos es 14n is being valueated. Because now epos is owned by the praised german accoustics Engineer Mr. Fink and Team who complety reinvented the speaker.
Stereo equipment is the greatest invention, ever! What is great to one, is... meh, to someone else. I learned there is no perfect system. No perfect speaker. Cause you will never, ever, get 100% of people to agree. That to me is the joy. I ran my store for 37 years. My philosophy was very simple... If, when it's all set up, you sit your butt in your listening position. If a giant smile comes across you face, you've chosen correctly!
Wow.. 3 speakers, 3 completely different price points. A small amount of research tells you the B&W retailed around the 600 price point, The EPOS at 1100/pair Not surprised you liked the ATC SM11's Current speaker at $2200/pair! As far as bang for the buck, the B&W's were quite the bargain with B&W manufactured kevlar driver, dome tweeter and tweeter tube right off the Nautilus line and a crossover with air core inductors, poly caps and decent connectors. Good components in a very inexpensive box.
Yes, I agree, plus the Epos is circa 1996 and the B+W is a design from 2002, whereas the ATC is from 2012/3 (though their speaker technology probably doesn't change much!) I have a pair of SCM11's and I really enjoy them. My only real issue is the need for the speakers to be within 40cm/16" of the rear wall, in a carpeted lounge with 2 large squidgy armchairs a few feet from the speakers. 'Not sure what I can do to help with SQ but it would probably involve some major change that my other half would not allow!
I have a pair of the passive ATC SCM40, and I couldn't be happier with them. Thoroughly recommended
Why watch this channel 😅
Danny's endorsement of the ATC, was all I needed! I am saving for those!
look into scm12 pro
I own a pair of atc scm 11
Im happy to answer any questions you might have.
@@lextr3110 SCM12 PRO is essentially as SCM11. Same drivers with I think the tweeter being the S version
@@ivorproblem1332 nah it was made long after the scm11
I have the ATC SCM19 and could compare them to the SCM11. I think you should try to get a pair of the SCM19. Bought mine used for 1500€ in Germany :-). I also added a SB-1000 subwoofer and use a Yamaha A-S1200 as an amp.
The Epos Ess speaker has two sets of binding posts and I suspect they are designed for active crossovers and bi-amplification. The cap is probably there just for a bit of protection.
It should be stated somewhere in video the original MSRP of each speaker and year of production. I know we can google that, but it would be nice see those important details incorporated into the analysis -especially when you're comparing quality of components. If your objective is NOT a comparative analysis, then I would do a separate video on each speaker, because viewers will automatically compare a $500 B&W to the $2K ATC when analyzed within the same video.
With all due respect, I think you are not giving us "viewers" enough credit for being able to discern the obvious price/quality difference between these speakers. I doubt anyone would think that all of these speakers are in the same cost category just because they're in the same video.
I have a vintage set of mission 781's and love them. Would be keen to hear if these could be improved :)
two notes for the curious:
1. phase cancellation is never 100% even if you were to reverse polarity on one of two identical speakers.
2. off axis destructive phase interference between drivers is more pronounced closer to the speaker...
*as stated in the video, it only takes 4" off axis to get a reduction in high fq at 1m. but 3m away a 4" off axis deviation will show a much diminished high fq reduction if any.
think of how the base of a cone gets larger as the cone gets taller.
I heard those Epos speakers back in the 90s - they were much more impressive than speakers costing 50 times as much.
8:40 I put ASC panels on the side walls, ceiling and wall behind speakers using a mirror on the side and ceiling and where I see the speaker seated on my chair I put a panel, in that way I kill 80% of multiple reflections creating a much better image making the speakers dissapear
Excellent video
Cheesey?
First time viewer. I must say that the detail that this guy goes into is exceptional.
Well presented videos with all the data and graphs pasted on top of the video.
Learnt a few new things so had to subscribe.
I will browse his previous videos to see what else he covers.
Cheers
i would say of course the ATC is better built, they dont compromise sound quality like the ported designs of the other cabinets here. that shows how they feel about sound.
I've always loved KEF Uniq Q style speakers. I like how it's almost unidirectional. Unfortunately u get good dispersion but weird frequency response. Well, that's why engineering is fun...trying to control the tradeoffs without spending too much money.
My friends dad had, and still does I think , a pair of EPOS ES14s. Back then (25 year ago) I don’t remember them sounding anything special but we only listened to rock and grunge and our reference was in car amp driven 6 x 9s that thumped out rock tracks.
One of the best reviews I've heard on bookshelves to date
Hi Danny. You mentioned you would like to replace the inner wiring. What cables would you recommend not changing the character of a speaker? Hope to get answer from you. Regards Michael
We provide a high quality internal wire. You can order it from our site.
Happy New Year! Another nice video! Am very curious what you might think about the fully iron cast Danish JERN speakers and their approach.
What you really want are speakers sold straight from the makers, usually small businesses to you. So long the engineering is competent, speakers like that are gonna beat everything at their price point. That's just how it works in hifi. I have a pair of 8" locally manufactured Elfton Vigo speakers (mk2) and they just shoot dead anything you could compare them to price-wise, they are not "made to price point", they set a different standard (of course, so long you live in center Europe, you would have to somehow import them otherwise). I feel lucky I found these, because there just are basically none like them around. A similar experience you might get from competently designed DIY, but unless you're a carpenter, it just wouldn't really have the high-end looks (but maybe you don't care for that).
First order crossovers are great cos no information is short circuited and so isn't lost. Only diminished where necessary. My snake oil. Also never resist a tweeter is my snake oil. And have the terminals of the tweeter well twisted just before the tweeter (not soldered). Just before the soldered terminals on the tweeter. My snake oil I found out by soldering the crossover on a pair of speakers I made. After that they sounded more "scratchy". So that's why I twist the tweeter wires. lol I don't listen to med driver in the box or out of the box. If you tap a driver in the box it's a warm sound. If you tap a completely open driver it will hardly make a sound and is a cold sound. But if you place the driver near the hole and the driver is semi open it will also sound warm when you tap the cone. With a bass vented speaker hole and the driver near it I get an open warm sound instead of the usual closed in warm sound. It's a sound that is different to "normal" med driver mounting. For coaxial speakers it's possible to raise the coaxial driver just above the speaker hole (with spacers) if you make a 2" deep tube running inward around the speaker hole. Surprisingly it works and sounds like any other bass vent except it's completely point source. To make a full range driver have more khz put a 1 cm hole in the dust cap and glue a 1 cm x 3mm skinny diamond shape piece of foil (with pointy ends) over the hole. The ends horizontally glued to the edges of the hole. Use coffee can seal stiff foil. It's tedious but rewarding. You will hear serious cymbals! FR not muffly!
Epos ES14 is the best speakers ever made for the money!!
Hey, first of all thanks for all information you posted on your channel - it is pure 💎
I got a question for you, have you ever seen atc scm 35? Does they have same issues with thickness and crossover need to be fixed?
alot of speaker upgrade reviews but it would be nice to hear any before after comparison actually ive watched a handfull of his speaker vids and have not seen or heard any speakers under load making music
I just stumbled across this video, I bought a pair of Epos Epic 2s off of CL, awhile back. One of the best speakers I've heard. I like them better than my Triangle Bro3! Sounds really, really good with my Fisher 400.
I have a pair of ATC SCM100's I bought them over 20 years ago couldn't afford the A's but being a 3 way cab makes a massive difference, so detailed, I replaced the original tweeters with a pair of Beyma CP21F maybe not the best choice, I understand that being a slot type rotating it 90 degrees gives it a wider dispersion, this I've yet to try.
I don’t mind when price point stuff has some cheap parts, as you mentioned Elacs, but when you have that same problem with 2-3-4 thousand dollar speakers that’s a different story.
I'd love to hear your opinion of the Rega RS series speaker crossover design, apparently they're quite unique!
Fantastic video! Giving a lot of insights into tweaking in general and how to get in there without ruining the existing engineering. Thank you very much and Merry Christmas
Thanks Danny
Have a set of those 602's in the garage. One needs some help. Very informative.
Well fancy that - three speakers you like and they're all British mid-high priced stand mounts.
I guess I have to qualify the earlier comment: did you actually like the B&W?
The motor structure on the ATC midrange is ridiculous... It's a monster!
Regarding the Epos. I believe William Burhoe sort of had this idea back in the late sixties when he designed the EPI M100 (Epicure Products). Also, Henry Kloss, although building to a price point, always stressed the importance of a well-designed crossover.
So what did I miss? Did you like any of these? I think I will stick with my AR18 circa 1980. They sound amazing and are cheap
Thing with Room Sound on that ES12 is that you can EQ it , so if say your Speaker has a dip in response in mids off axis , which is a problem due to summing for room sound , you can EQ the Room to boost mids and correct for room sound that lacks mids due to off axis speaker behavior .
So its back to ok . That is a mouthful for you ppl not versed in this but but i cant say that simpler .
Of course you need to know that , you need to measure that .
But if you are to pay big bucks for Crossover and Upgrades you should .Its logical , Measure you speakers ppl , but dont pay big money for measuring microphones , they are all the same , but some cost 50 other 1000 $, to you it wont make any difference since you dont have anechoic chamber
Would be cool to see the graphs after you finish your work