This definitely brings me back to Mavic wheels years ago, confirmed by a commenter above. I remember looking at them and wondering out loud, ‘But what happens when you compress the wheel hard?’ Turns out the spokes indeed come out. Madness. Thanks for raising the issue here, most folks wouldn’t see the risk.
I've been riding a mavic wheel with one loose spoke for a year and somehow it's still true. Hasn't popped out even though it fully rattles around (have taped it to another t spoke), call me an engineer
The issue with the early experiments with fully carbon spokes was that there is a tiny chance (small but not zero) thanks to the failure mode of carbon, that all of the spokes can fail at the same time- leaving the hub floating in the breeze and the riders face on the floor. That was why an entire wheel line was recalled, and the replacement had alu spokes at the front. But bike industry consumer memory is short, and yeah, performance marketing gains.... its a genuine surprise to see so many embrace carbon spoked wheels offered now at an affordable price point. Metal spokes never fail in that manner all at once. Look at the pic of the wheel failure, we see all the carbon spokes shattered, split or alu head detached, the hub has gone off for a wonder.
@@nellyx1x493 Yeah the Mavic R-Sys wheels were deadly. My old boss had a complete failure of a front wheel during a sprint finish. We refused to do any work on them as a result of it. The cap that was hammered in to "preload" the spokes could crack, the domed ends of the spokes could wear reducing the preload and then the possibility of spokes just disintegrating was enough to put me off using them. Dry/squeaky freehub seal, worn SINGLE freehub bearings, seized spoke/nipples and having to purchase a whole side of spokes to replace one was a complete pain in the arse.
Can’t agree more mate. The spectacular unlacing of the hub could have been fatal. Manufacturers MUST DO BETTER and for now, consumers NEED TO EDUCATE THEMSELVES before they buy a set of wheels.
You reckon they will? Don't mean to sound cynical but the average consumer won't care about the engineering of the wheel they bought and just assume its safety has been considered.
I think most of the mainstream brands have considered this risk and dont use this open side entry system for a reason, just no one notices it. 90% of wheels are on steel spokes where a simple thru hole will suffice. The onset of carbon/proprietary spokes has created this side entry risk and its come in dangerously under the radar.
@@PeakTorque it’s really interesting reading comments on my reel that went viral. You’ve got the supporters who are either oblivious to the danger of a lack of redundancy or denying it altogether
Well maybe if the road cycling community actually lost weight in their body instead of the bikes, then they would be a bit smarter. But no way.. What else are you gonna do with your money? How does it feel getting past by a guy on a mtb while riding your light road bike to the cafe?
also 28 or 32 spokes in your wheel could make a huge difference if you are not a racer. i mean, if one gets loose, your wheel won't lose that much strength as a wheel using 24 or way less spokes.
@@domonkosscheiling5809 ummm, not necessarily. I weigh 210 pounds and race gravel with two different carbon 24 hole wheelsets - Chris King J-Bend and DT Swiss Straight Pull hubs, both with CX Ray spokes. The Chris King hubs especially have great lateral stiffness. I had my wheel builder use brass nipples and a liquid thread locker. No problems and I beat the crap out of them.
DFMEA's aren't a panacea by any stretch. Failure effects are mis-prioritized in terms of level of severity and worse case 'all the time'. No engineering company wants to harbor a document that impugns their liability. DFMEA's aren't a substitute for sound engineering judgement. They are generally used in industry as a CYA document, more like a rubber stamp. Most are reactionary. When blatant field failures occur, DFMEA's are revised to change weighting of failure 'after the fact'. For example, what is worse? Side loaded spoke retention as discussed in this video or hookless rims for heavy riders running threshold high side pressure on low side interference tires? Anybody believe these relationships are weighted 'appropriately' in a DFMEA where both spoke retention hubs and hookless rims are employed on the same wheelset?
I think if that design was in BMX, nobody would even buy it, definitely not in freestyle, which has unexpectedly become the most conservative cycling discipline with the most traditional bikes
This video came really on time. I cannot agree more, yesterday one of my spoke snaped on the decent from Grossglockner in about 70km/h, and even tho I have the classic hub, it was rather hard to stop and was all over the place since the wheel got misaligned immediately. Well, I will definitely think of that when choosing a new wheelset :D
Were the spokes the correct diameter the J type get eaten away slowly over time if the diameter is wrong or if there is too much twisting it can snap??? This only applies if you are using the older steel spoke arrangement.
I had the same happen on a set on Shimano wheels with straight pull spokes. One of them snapped on the drive side of the rear wheel - immediately the wheel went out of true, but I could still stop safely. If the whole wheel had fallen apart I'd have been in trouble.
This is a scenario where disc brakes are much safer than rim brakes. Years ago my wife was descending, went over a small bump, but single spoke failure and the rim went immediately out of true. Sudden engagement of the brake pads through half of the wheels rotation and not only is there a wobbly wheel, but the the bike becomes difficult to control due to braking.
As much as I agree upon the issue, I wouldn't call it lack redundancy. That would imply having several elements or systems having same function. Here on the contrary there is zero elements for a specific function. It's failure of prediction in use case scenarios
It happened to me on a mountain bike Mavic rear wheel. After I hit a jump the wheel compressed so much that the spoke went out. Luckily I mange to put it back and it was fine.
Agree. Lots of comments appear to be seeking validation that similarly designed hubs are somehow “better”. This ignores the primary issue: poor design. When tension is lost, this type of hub design is prone to de-spoking. Full stop.
Thank you for voicing this out. I notice this silly design has been a trend lately for the sake of ‘efficiency’, aero, weight saving, and any moronic reason. Safety must be a top priority. Safety → confidence. Redundancy is one thing, but manufacturing tolerance & QC may play an important factor. That’s also the reason to go with old proven & established manufacturers. For me, a few teeth worth far more than a few grams or a few watts aero savings or even the FOMO foolish trend.
Not directly related to this specific accident, but here it goes. Hopefully, this will be clear to all of you, and I'd be really interested in hearing about similar experiences if you've seen or heard of them before. A couple of months ago, while riding downhill on my bike (I have a pair of tubeless ENVE SES 3.4), I experienced a sudden flat on my front wheel (which, as you can imagine, isn't much fun when you're moving at 40-50 km/h). Luckily, I managed to come to a full stop without any scratches. Upon inspecting the wheel, I couldn't find anything protruding from the tire but noticed that one of the spokes was broken at the hub (specifically, on the braking side). When I removed the tire to install an inner tube, I found that the tubeless tape was pierced by the spoke, which caused the sudden loss of pressure. A couple of weeks later, after repairing the wheel, the SAME THING HAPPENED again. I can't conclusively say it was the same spoke, but it was on the same side of the hub. I'm wondering if this is an inherent design flaw of wheels with internal nipples. If a spoke breaks from the inner side of the wheel, it becomes an arrow that will most likely cut through any inner tube or tubeless tape. A sudden flat while cornering can't result in anything good, in my opinion. Would this issue be avoided if we used J-bend spokes? To be fair to ENVE, they didn't hesitate to send a new hub once they were informed about the incident. Has anyone ever seen or heard of this? I can't possibly be the only person who has gone through it!
@@Gordacho18 it's not specific to internal nipples, but rather spokes being too long (protruding further out of the nipple) and you clearly have them all undertentioned. Glad you are OK and the tyre didn't come off the bead thanks to proper rim barrel profile.
That's weird. I had a spoke break on a Foundation45 rear wheel where it snapped right at the nipple end inside the rim. The broken nipple was bouncing around the rim while I rode home. I wasn't even going fast when it broke haha. I'm assuming you're using the newer innderdrive hubs? I'd think with J-bend spokes there wouldn't be a way for the spoke to get close to the tape, depending on where it broke of course.
I’ve built nearly all of my won wheels over the years, and never have spoke failure. The only wheels I have had to rebuild were lightweight aluminum tubular rims that started to fail over many years of use, by cracks forming around the nipples. I will stick with traditional wheel builds, thank you very much.
I once rear-ended a SUV on my road bike when it pulled across the bike lane to duck into a parking spot. It was relatively low speed (didn't hit the deck or anything) but I hit the SUV hard enough with my front wheel to knock one spokes out of my DT Swiss Dicut hub. Didn't lose any other spokes, though, and once I walked back home (wasn't very far away) I was able to pop the spoke back into the hub, true up and tension the wheel, and it's been trouble-free ever since. I think even beyond just having the side cap, some slot-load hubs are better designed than others. These dicut hubs have a groove machined into the inside edge where the spokes seat, so it takes more than just bumping them sideways a little bit to fully knock them loose. It's not perfect (as I found) but it's definitely more than some designs seem to have.
That's why I've never been obsessed with ultra lightweight components. A fellow clubmate died in a crash on an innocuous stretch of road Dartmoor recently, I think his bike setup could have been the cause.
I read about that but there were no specifics into the details of why he died so, if you don't mind my asking, in what way do you think his bike contributed towards his death? I am really sorry you were effected by this.
As an MTB rider, this problem reminds me why forks now have "lawyer lugs" to prevent the front wheel from leaving the bike if the QR comes undone (or is installed wrong by an ignorant person). Also points out how important a country's consumer protection regulations are, hopefully these Unsafe hubs are outlawed.
I have a set of Drive 50D wheels with side-entry spokes. If I had seen your videos criticizing that design before buying them, I probably wouldn't have.
@@PeakTorque I mean, I’m still going to ride the 50Ds. But I might have chosen something different. I like them, and I guess the potential danger is exciting.
This is now a known health and safety issue that manufacturers ignore at their peril. My wife and I ride a tandem. Safe and reliable wheels are essential. I build my own wheels.. they last until the rims wear down. I would never contemplate using anything other than traditional tried and tested interlaced spokes.
Very valid point. Particularly with CF spokes that loose a lot of tension with little compression. I don’t see this (practically) possible with SS spokes or deeper machined pockets in the flanges.
My bike build was made with the idea of maintenance in world in colapse, where long lasting trustworthy parts and idea are the main norm,this bike is ready for the apocalypse 😂
hey mate, good point. totally agree it can be avoided by a through hole or cap. But, looking at this from an engineering perspective, you know that a design is not made to withstand every possible (failure) situation it could possibly face. Products are always made to break or fail at some point when its overloaded or loaded in a way its not designed for. Same in the aviation (my cup of thee), planes are made to withstand a lot but there will be a moment where the wing will break or the engine will damage (it can handle a turkey size bird but not an ostrich e.g. for a clear reason that the chances of an Ostrich getting into the engine is nihil so they don't design it to withstand it. But what if the zoo left the gate open and the ostrich walks on the runway?.....chances so small so they don't take it into account) so how many of these failures have we seen in total, and how many of these side entry spoked wheels have been sold? what is the actual number of catastrophic failures, thus the chances of getting one? Should a wheel design be changed for that? (i don't know the numbers, i'm just trying to reason if this is a small or nihil chance of happening..) what do you think?
To be fair to Mavic: quite a few of their side entry spoke hub designs have a circlip or washer, or cover cap, partially or fully covering the head of the spoke, to stop this happening (how successful this is/was/will be I don't fully know, as all the dislocated/broken spokes on Mavic wheels I've had to deal with were at the thread root or inside the captive nipple at the other end).
You're right. As a wheel builder I have sometimes been asked to build wheels which I regard as unsafe for various reasons - and refused. Better international standards are needed BUT any reputable manufacturer has no excuse, any failure mode analysis would raise the example given in this video.
"Don't crash and you won't get hurt". I said that to my self after I did a "face plant" from my bicycle and my nose bled all over a board walk this pass Monday.
I was very lucky with a set of Sun Ringle wheels with straight pull ball ended spokes, on a brand new bike, where the spoke nipples started failing after about 3 days from new. First warning was when I stopped and saw a spoke jump straight out of the front wheel and land on the ground in front of me, this was the first of several failures over the coming days. If I had a few fail together at full speed on a rocky descent, there's no question that the wheel would have collapsed. No issues, apart from a fatigue failed rear axle a few months later once I rebuilt with brass spoke nipples. This was from a supposedly 'reputable' manufacturer...
Checked the hubs on my Mavic Allroads and... yep, they have this problem. Well, sort of. It look like the lacing is such that each spoke is prevented from falling out by two other spokes and sideway entrances are going one from the inside and one from the outside. It seems that they did try to mitigate the issue.
Amen. One quibble: if all (or a majority) of the spoke heads pop out of their hub flange pockets, the rim is held captive on the hub and turns into a greatly exaggerated 'clown wheel', and can't roll off down the road. But you'd still faceplant pretty badly.
Relying on the cassette to hold the spokes in place in the hub only works if the bottom gear sprocket has no cutouts. Otherwise the loose spoke will jam in one of the cutouts in the sprocket, lock the freewheel and drag the cranks forwards, leading to a high chance of a crash or a bent derailleur/hanger if the rider doesn't keep turning the cranks till they stop the bike.
Yep, totally agree with your interpretation. I’ve had to sort five wheels with this issue in the last two years. There’s something chilling when a rider hands you a hub and a separate rim full of spokes when only one spoke has failed. Luckily no nasty stories. It’s clearly a design dominated by the need for an easy way to both machine a hub and robot-build a wheel. The moment the overall tension is lost there’s nothing holding good spokes in place. I’ve looked at lacing wire around spokes to lock them in place but it doesn’t look nice or can’t be done effectively. It’s over to the manufacturer to add redundancy to the design, cascade failure is not acceptable.
Wow, and here are people telling me its a non-issue. If you would like to email me some more info regarding those wheelsets i would be interested to see them! Peak Torque at outlook dott com
Hi, sorry I can’t offer much. For context I’m an amateur wheel builder and my head usually goes down when I see elegant-over-complicated wheels (I’m an old fart). I don’t keep records of clients & jobs. In terms of the fails linked to spoke unlatching, here’s what I remember. Two were Mavic as you’d shown. One had a spoke fail whilst stationary, he’d crashed a week earlier and thought he might have knelt on the wheel during his fall. This was the one that came in two parts. The other was a pothole on a fast training ride, no fall but rider felt very lucky that the whole wheel hadn’t dismantled whilst he scrambled to a stop. The third was a no-name MTB hub, “they looked good on eBay”, that was a complete collapse but being an MTBer he was dressed for it and was already falling for another reason!! Of the other two, I seem to remember one was or looked like a Novatec Atom (?) and the other was a road no-name in a style similar to the Mavics but a looser fit. As I say, it’s a while back and I either rebuilt with a new rim or advised them to get new wheels where every component was tied in mechanically, not on a song, prayer & a spit of friction. As an aside, a decade ago I demonstrated building a wheel at a school and to show how the spokes work in tension I rode a part finished wheel with all the spokes loose & sloppy. It is staggering how bad a wheel can be and yet not fail suddenly, plenty of “leak before breach” redundancy. Best of luck.
Have a lot more spokes. That'll reduce the potential of the spokes poppong out of the hub when detentioning, because the load is being spread more evenly. However, a 20 spokes hub or less sounds like a system that absolutely needs a different kind of redundancy than a 32 spokes wheel. Nice video there mate.
My MTB wheel has straight pull spokes that are not side pull...i.e. through a through hole. I snapped 2 spokes and the wheel made it all the way down a French red DH run with no problems. I cannot imagine the injuries from a 'rapid unscheduled de-lacing'
The threaded hub-spoke interface that CRW started and is used by NEWMEN as well seems like the best solution to me. Fixes this issue and gives you more freedom with hub and spoke hesign by not having to feed a spoke through a properly sized hole
After breaking spokes in hundreds of wheels and the expense, Mavic came out with straight pull spokes, and I thought the spoke breakage days were over. But NO!! Still the same weak spokes as always. I thought the elbow of traditional spokes were the weak link and they were getting cut at the elbow from the stress., but no. What I don't understand is my motorcycles NEVER break spokes, and the spoke gage is not all that much more that my heavy-duty wheels with 14 gage. Motorcycles have 100's of times more power running through the spokes, a cyclist only has maybe one horsepower and torque and only for a short period time. A wheel with a 10 gage and 28 spokes may last a lifetime instead of what we have today that only last a few thousand miles. Why do we still have weak wheels today?
I don't know if you've checked, but a motorcycle is really heavy and pushed around by a huge motor. So there's that. But I agree, they should be making these spokes 2 or 3 times stronger than they need to be to remove all chance of breaking. Maybe that would end up making them too big? I don't know. I do know I have never broken a spoke, so I don't know how some people are breaking them all the time.
@@TheJohnreeves Never broke a spoke? Do you buy new wheels every 2000 miles, or rebuild your wheels with new spokes every 2000 miles? Maybe you're using all carbon wheels with no spokes? How can any serious rider never break a spoke? wheels with these tiny 14 gage spokes only last a few thousand miles. ( I am a former pro rider, and still today ride 10,000 miles a year, and still train for fitness at high intensity) I live in the most mountainous state of America where there are many sea level to high altitude climbing. Climbing like this and strong time trialing will place high stress on wheels.
Sounds a bit racist but I have researched a lot of Chinese product and their primary aim is to get product on the market, bugger safety conditions and there is no regulatory body for code enforcement in China. That being said, I did buy a Giant bike which had Swiss racing wheels on it. At the 12 month mark, one spoke broke out from the wheel rim and the rim itself buckled. They told me in the shop that the wheel was designed for a limited weight, once the event occurred, not when they sold me the bike. I was over that weight restriction by 12kg so was on a time bomb. I then bought Shimano road training wheels, from another shop, and the bike has been OK for the remaining 9 years. As a special mark for the occasion the spoke left a nice crescent moon scratch across my calf muscle from the tension release.
Good video! - Could you maybe do something on speed wobble? I just had an heavy accident with broken bones because of it. I have “great” equipment still the wobble occurs with sidewind every time.
Speed wobble is primarily a mass balancing issue. You need the rotational mass around the steering axis in front of the steering axis. Short stems and/or a rearward hand position, as well as low offset forks (increased/excessive trail and rearward mass balance) and lack of system stiffness exacerbate the issue.
@@neiltwaterhouse It’s a “regular” Canyon Aeroad. Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels. I would say this should not happen. Have to talk to Canyon. It’s a really sad situation since it’s the second new bike where this happened to me.
Ha, I never seen these types of hubs, before this... But I sure will never own one.... but it seems like a hub nut that covers the exit side would prevent the spoke end from coming loose ....
Straight pull spokes will only save the manufacturer the time to actually bend the spoke, according to Roger Musson. Just use regular old J-bend spokes in a Hope pro 4 or 5 front hub. i9 if you are feeling fancy and have too much money in your pocket. For heavy riders, above 100kg, straight spokes feel really nice. Lighter riders can try butted spokes, but they do twist during truing and can be a bit finicky to know if the spoke is tight or just twisted up, that will release later when you ride.
what's so bad about old style hubs where the spoke threads through a hole? True, I can't 'have fancy carbon fibre or aero-section spokes, but I've never thought I needed them.
Good point, well done on making people aware of it earlier. I believe the new Hypers have a cover. The DT Swiss I have are much better designed. I’m looking sideways at my hypers now… maybe I can glue in the spokes? 😂 I need to up my tooling then maybe I can make my own covers. 🤔
I was thinking a similar thing the first time I saw the "hook flange" hubs that are designed for Berd spokes. Although, the looped ends overlap in opposing directions which might help hold them on the hooks. Also, it's harder to "push" a string...
Fuck. Me walking to my hyper wheels feeling anxiety... I am probably gonna design and print some clip/cap to reduce the chance they rattle out in case off spoke tension failures. Thanks for pushing this out and addressing it. ❤
Spot on rant, needs more attention from the bike industry. The vast majority of riders don't need the performance gains if it comes at the expense of safety... its why I wouldn't touch carbon spoked wheels (the early R-Sys's rapidly disassembled themselves in a similar manner, the hubs making their bid for freedom from the constraints of the wheel) and carbon hookless narrow road format can similarly get in the bin.
Was that the wheel the VN editor crashed with? Recalled and then the replacements started failing too? An employee of this company told me the failure was caused by the tire coming off and stopping the wheel rotating, saying this particular brand/model of tire was known for this. When asked WTF they didn't make this public so the consumer wouldn't mount this tire on their wheels I was told the big-brand marketer of these tires was a big user of their wheels on the bikes they sold and they didn't want to piss them off. No s__t! That tells you how much these mofo's care about the safety of the folks who buy this crap! Just like BOEING airliners!
@@larryt.atcycleitalia5786 Am a huge fan of Mavic wheels, have used many pairs in my cycling life mtb & road, the Ksyriums were some of the best allround wheels of their time.... but about 15 years ago they released the R-Sys with carbon spoked front.... and pictures emerged similar to above of complete hub separation... well documented at the time. It put me off carbon spoked wheels for life - when the potential failure mode for carbon is understood it is fairly obvious that some applications are not well suited to the material.
In a case like this where the loss of tension seems so critical wouldn't there still be a risk that, while the spokes are still attached to the hub and rim, the mechanical connection is lost and the spokes end up twisting and/or braking around the hub anyway?
You can ride a wheel with spokes with no tension - just. Ask me how i know! The spokes will go into tension when your weight is on the bike, and that may be just enough to let you stop a bit better.
99.999% or more of spoke failure is due to rider overweight, ignoring service rules, uneven spoke tension, rumbling through potholes and over curbs, ignoring replacement rules after overloading.
if you can name so many reasons the spokes can fail, a fail safe design makes even more sense instead of just handing over the responsibility to the user...
Well, I was going to go on some retro grouch rant, but, my old mavic askium wheels are kinda like this... There's a sort of rubber washer on the outside, which might stop them from going out, but, they might be able to fall out on the inside...
The recall was for the flange itself breaking, that's why the later model 88 hubs without the spoke cap were not effected, because they have more flange material.
Thanks a lot for the heads up. For someone who couldn’t be less of an engineer: are there specific brands of wheelsets, which do this right? Wouldn’t won’t to bet my physical safety on this.
Hi. Excellent observation. And am I right to recall that you’ve previously told us that the risk of this happening is higher with carbon spokes? Less elasticity, less stretch, therefore become slack with a smaller rim deformation? Buyer beware.
@peaktorque ... so, given both your engineering and DIY-manufacturing skills (I'm thinking of the things that you've made that you've shown on the channel e.g. custom mudguard etc) - is there anything that can be done to rectify this issue on an existing set of wheels? Asking as a) it turns out I have such a set b) I have a friend who's also quite skilled in such bits of manufacturing who I could tap up and c) I hate throwing away perfectly serviceable items just because of a comparatively minor aspect to the design. Plus, much though it's important to learn about problems, I'm more enthused to learn about solutions. Thanks!
Had a Mavic wheel drop spokes and crash me on a step descent after hitting a bump (tree root under the road, size of a speed bump and couldn't see in morning glare). Over a thousand dollars in damage, I was quite hurt having crashed at about 50-60kmh.
@@PeakTorque long ago now, around 7 years. Injuries weren't too bad, I skipped work that day and was back to pretty regular training within the week just with an array of road rash, hematomas and aches by sheer luck. I did some analysis on my bike same day and came to the conclusion that was the mechanism of the crash because I hadn't lost control of the bars from the bump and I've hated the hub design ever since and will not buy a wheel with it. I think that was when I decided to pony up and have my mechanic build me a training wheelset because I was sick of all the bad design choices in commercial ones killing my wheels prematurely. Seeing as I might have your attention, a big thanks for the videos over time. Your analysis is fantastic.
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This definitely brings me back to Mavic wheels years ago, confirmed by a commenter above. I remember looking at them and wondering out loud, ‘But what happens when you compress the wheel hard?’ Turns out the spokes indeed come out. Madness. Thanks for raising the issue here, most folks wouldn’t see the risk.
I've been riding a mavic wheel with one loose spoke for a year and somehow it's still true. Hasn't popped out even though it fully rattles around (have taped it to another t
spoke), call me an engineer
If it wasn't for guys like @PeakTorque or @Hambini, many safety and other issues would go unnoticed for average Joes like me.
The issue with the early experiments with fully carbon spokes was that there is a tiny chance (small but not zero) thanks to the failure mode of carbon, that all of the spokes can fail at the same time- leaving the hub floating in the breeze and the riders face on the floor. That was why an entire wheel line was recalled, and the replacement had alu spokes at the front. But bike industry consumer memory is short, and yeah, performance marketing gains.... its a genuine surprise to see so many embrace carbon spoked wheels offered now at an affordable price point. Metal spokes never fail in that manner all at once. Look at the pic of the wheel failure, we see all the carbon spokes shattered, split or alu head detached, the hub has gone off for a wonder.
@@ChlorophyllCrusher that’s why I chose DT Swiss wheelset over Mavic Crossmax on my MTB. That’s a long long time ago
@@nellyx1x493 Yeah the Mavic R-Sys wheels were deadly. My old boss had a complete failure of a front wheel during a sprint finish. We refused to do any work on them as a result of it. The cap that was hammered in to "preload" the spokes could crack, the domed ends of the spokes could wear reducing the preload and then the possibility of spokes just disintegrating was enough to put me off using them. Dry/squeaky freehub seal, worn SINGLE freehub bearings, seized spoke/nipples and having to purchase a whole side of spokes to replace one was a complete pain in the arse.
Steel J-bend spokes for life!
Can’t agree more mate. The spectacular unlacing of the hub could have been fatal. Manufacturers MUST DO BETTER and for now, consumers NEED TO EDUCATE THEMSELVES before they buy a set of wheels.
You reckon they will?
Don't mean to sound cynical but the average consumer won't care about the engineering of the wheel they bought and just assume its safety has been considered.
I think most of the mainstream brands have considered this risk and dont use this open side entry system for a reason, just no one notices it. 90% of wheels are on steel spokes where a simple thru hole will suffice. The onset of carbon/proprietary spokes has created this side entry risk and its come in dangerously under the radar.
@@PeakTorque it’s really interesting reading comments on my reel that went viral. You’ve got the supporters who are either oblivious to the danger of a lack of redundancy or denying it altogether
Well maybe if the road cycling community actually lost weight in their body instead of the bikes, then they would be a bit smarter. But no way.. What else are you gonna do with your money?
How does it feel getting past by a guy on a mtb while riding your light road bike to the cafe?
@@VeloViosLol you need more braincells with your comment
Hooray for traditional j-bend spokes!
Chris King
also 28 or 32 spokes in your wheel could make a huge difference if you are not a racer. i mean, if one gets loose, your wheel won't lose that much strength as a wheel using 24 or way less spokes.
Yep. 28h on all my disc wheels
@@domonkosscheiling5809 ummm, not necessarily. I weigh 210 pounds and race gravel with two different carbon 24 hole wheelsets - Chris King J-Bend and DT Swiss Straight Pull hubs, both with CX Ray spokes. The Chris King hubs especially have great lateral stiffness. I had my wheel builder use brass nipples and a liquid thread locker. No problems and I beat the crap out of them.
@@petersouthernboy6327maybe with super hd rims.
No DFMEA at the start. Well done for bringing this up
Probably did and they “cost saving engineered” the safety out of it.
DFMEA's aren't a panacea by any stretch. Failure effects are mis-prioritized in terms of level of severity and worse case 'all the time'. No engineering company wants to harbor a document that impugns their liability. DFMEA's aren't a substitute for sound engineering judgement. They are generally used in industry as a CYA document, more like a rubber stamp. Most are reactionary. When blatant field failures occur, DFMEA's are revised to change weighting of failure 'after the fact'. For example, what is worse? Side loaded spoke retention as discussed in this video or hookless rims for heavy riders running threshold high side pressure on low side interference tires? Anybody believe these relationships are weighted 'appropriately' in a DFMEA where both spoke retention hubs and hookless rims are employed on the same wheelset?
@SR-fm1ft Or they did it and didn't think that tension can go away so fast and so far.
dFMEA is the backbone of your design. You can apply this to your entire life.
@@basengelblik5199 truth.
I brought this up to Montecci and they told me my knowledge on this is superficial. May be so as I’m not an engineer, but I learned from peak torque.
Their knowledge might also be superficial.
Aannnd- I'm off to check all my wheelsets for this- brb
I stick with Fulcrum wheels. Campagnolo engineering vs built to a price. It comes down to how much the user values their life.
I think it's always a good idea to check whether spoke tension is still there.
If that wheel design was in BMX, there would be bodies.
I think if that design was in BMX, nobody would even buy it, definitely not in freestyle, which has unexpectedly become the most conservative cycling discipline with the most traditional bikes
@@majun26 agreed
Peak Torque: That is not a rant? That is a life saver of someone's life!! Thank you for explaining!! 👍
This video came really on time. I cannot agree more, yesterday one of my spoke snaped on the decent from Grossglockner in about 70km/h, and even tho I have the classic hub, it was rather hard to stop and was all over the place since the wheel got misaligned immediately. Well, I will definitely think of that when choosing a new wheelset :D
Were the spokes the correct diameter the J type get eaten away slowly over time if the diameter is wrong or if there is too much twisting it can snap??? This only applies if you are using the older steel spoke arrangement.
Ah, so you were taking it easy?
I had the same happen on a set on Shimano wheels with straight pull spokes. One of them snapped on the drive side of the rear wheel - immediately the wheel went out of true, but I could still stop safely. If the whole wheel had fallen apart I'd have been in trouble.
This is a scenario where disc brakes are much safer than rim brakes. Years ago my wife was descending, went over a small bump, but single spoke failure and the rim went immediately out of true. Sudden engagement of the brake pads through half of the wheels rotation and not only is there a wobbly wheel, but the the bike becomes difficult to control due to braking.
As much as I agree upon the issue, I wouldn't call it lack redundancy. That would imply having several elements or systems having same function. Here on the contrary there is zero elements for a specific function. It's failure of prediction in use case scenarios
Yes i agree actually. There is no element that functions to hold the spokes in.
@@PeakTorque design for manufacturing at its finest🤷♂️
I would call it bang bang gatarong.
It happened to me on a mountain bike Mavic rear wheel. After I hit a jump the wheel compressed so much that the spoke went out. Luckily I mange to put it back and it was fine.
This is why I choose the fulcrum racing zeros back then in lieu of other options..😅
Yes, I choose good Campagnolo engineering over built to a price stuff. Wheels are not the place to compromise.
Good catch, good find. This design is absolutely ridiculous.
Agree. Lots of comments appear to be seeking validation that similarly designed hubs are somehow “better”. This ignores the primary issue: poor design.
When tension is lost, this type of hub design is prone to de-spoking. Full stop.
Thank you for voicing this out. I notice this silly design has been a trend lately for the sake of ‘efficiency’, aero, weight saving, and any moronic reason. Safety must be a top priority. Safety → confidence. Redundancy is one thing, but manufacturing tolerance & QC may play an important factor. That’s also the reason to go with old proven & established manufacturers. For me, a few teeth worth far more than a few grams or a few watts aero savings or even the FOMO foolish trend.
Not directly related to this specific accident, but here it goes. Hopefully, this will be clear to all of you, and I'd be really interested in hearing about similar experiences if you've seen or heard of them before.
A couple of months ago, while riding downhill on my bike (I have a pair of tubeless ENVE SES 3.4), I experienced a sudden flat on my front wheel (which, as you can imagine, isn't much fun when you're moving at 40-50 km/h). Luckily, I managed to come to a full stop without any scratches.
Upon inspecting the wheel, I couldn't find anything protruding from the tire but noticed that one of the spokes was broken at the hub (specifically, on the braking side). When I removed the tire to install an inner tube, I found that the tubeless tape was pierced by the spoke, which caused the sudden loss of pressure.
A couple of weeks later, after repairing the wheel, the SAME THING HAPPENED again. I can't conclusively say it was the same spoke, but it was on the same side of the hub.
I'm wondering if this is an inherent design flaw of wheels with internal nipples. If a spoke breaks from the inner side of the wheel, it becomes an arrow that will most likely cut through any inner tube or tubeless tape. A sudden flat while cornering can't result in anything good, in my opinion. Would this issue be avoided if we used J-bend spokes?
To be fair to ENVE, they didn't hesitate to send a new hub once they were informed about the incident.
Has anyone ever seen or heard of this? I can't possibly be the only person who has gone through it!
@@Gordacho18 it's not specific to internal nipples, but rather spokes being too long (protruding further out of the nipple) and you clearly have them all undertentioned.
Glad you are OK and the tyre didn't come off the bead thanks to proper rim barrel profile.
Wheels too shallow, you just need deeper wheels 😊
Seriously though thats a good reason to get wheels without holes into the tire area.
Was the wheel build by Enve or custom build by a bike shop? Build I mean the spokes and hub.
@@thedronescene7474it was built by ENVE
That's weird. I had a spoke break on a Foundation45 rear wheel where it snapped right at the nipple end inside the rim. The broken nipple was bouncing around the rim while I rode home. I wasn't even going fast when it broke haha.
I'm assuming you're using the newer innderdrive hubs? I'd think with J-bend spokes there wouldn't be a way for the spoke to get close to the tape, depending on where it broke of course.
I’ve built nearly all of my won wheels over the years, and never have spoke failure. The only wheels I have had to rebuild were lightweight aluminum tubular rims that started to fail over many years of use, by cracks forming around the nipples. I will stick with traditional wheel builds, thank you very much.
I once rear-ended a SUV on my road bike when it pulled across the bike lane to duck into a parking spot. It was relatively low speed (didn't hit the deck or anything) but I hit the SUV hard enough with my front wheel to knock one spokes out of my DT Swiss Dicut hub. Didn't lose any other spokes, though, and once I walked back home (wasn't very far away) I was able to pop the spoke back into the hub, true up and tension the wheel, and it's been trouble-free ever since.
I think even beyond just having the side cap, some slot-load hubs are better designed than others. These dicut hubs have a groove machined into the inside edge where the spokes seat, so it takes more than just bumping them sideways a little bit to fully knock them loose. It's not perfect (as I found) but it's definitely more than some designs seem to have.
Thank you for the analysis, great information 🤙
bought some 9Velo CD45's after seeing your prior vids to eliminate that risk. also got a nice little discount thanks to your code!
That's why I've never been obsessed with ultra lightweight components. A fellow clubmate died in a crash on an innocuous stretch of road Dartmoor recently, I think his bike setup could have been the cause.
I read about that but there were no specifics into the details of why he died so, if you don't mind my asking, in what way do you think his bike contributed towards his death?
I am really sorry you were effected by this.
Inportant info. Thanks for the warning.
THANK YOU! 😎💯👍
As an MTB rider, this problem reminds me why forks now have "lawyer lugs" to prevent the front wheel from leaving the bike if the QR comes undone (or is installed wrong by an ignorant person). Also points out how important a country's consumer protection regulations are, hopefully these Unsafe hubs are outlawed.
Thanks for the heads up! Didn't think of this... I really like your videos, keep 'em coming! 👍
Excellent information
Tell manufacturers that the protective cap will make it more aero and it'll be done in a flash 😂
I have a set of Drive 50D wheels with side-entry spokes. If I had seen your videos criticizing that design before buying them, I probably wouldn't have.
@@owensnicholas i have used the same slide in 3 or 4 wheel reviews now!
@@PeakTorque I mean, I’m still going to ride the 50Ds. But I might have chosen something different. I like them, and I guess the potential danger is exciting.
I'll be in the market for a full carbon aero bike next year and as a heavy guy that's some info I needed to know to make the right choice.
Thanks !
Shocking ! Thank you
This is certainly making me think harder about wheelset choice. I live in yorkshire and there's some fast hills and potholes.. need to mitigate dying.
This is now a known health and safety issue that manufacturers ignore at their peril.
My wife and I ride a tandem. Safe and reliable wheels are essential. I build my own wheels.. they last until the rims wear down. I would never contemplate using anything other than traditional tried and tested interlaced spokes.
Mavic uses a steel c-clip that prevents this in radial straight pull spokes. Mavic Crossmax SL Pro Ltd. I am looking at it right now....
@PeakTorque Thanks for another important video. Have to check my hubs regarding this matter.
Very valid point. Particularly with CF spokes that loose a lot of tension with little compression.
I don’t see this (practically) possible with SS spokes or deeper machined pockets in the flanges.
My bike build was made with the idea of maintenance in world in colapse, where long lasting trustworthy parts and idea are the main norm,this bike is ready for the apocalypse 😂
Very nice sharing,a lot of information is conveyed although it is brief,full watching bro❤🙏 5:55
hey mate, good point. totally agree it can be avoided by a through hole or cap. But, looking at this from an engineering perspective, you know that a design is not made to withstand every possible (failure) situation it could possibly face. Products are always made to break or fail at some point when its overloaded or loaded in a way its not designed for. Same in the aviation (my cup of thee), planes are made to withstand a lot but there will be a moment where the wing will break or the engine will damage (it can handle a turkey size bird but not an ostrich e.g. for a clear reason that the chances of an Ostrich getting into the engine is nihil so they don't design it to withstand it. But what if the zoo left the gate open and the ostrich walks on the runway?.....chances so small so they don't take it into account)
so how many of these failures have we seen in total, and how many of these side entry spoked wheels have been sold? what is the actual number of catastrophic failures, thus the chances of getting one? Should a wheel design be changed for that? (i don't know the numbers, i'm just trying to reason if this is a small or nihil chance of happening..)
what do you think?
To be fair to Mavic: quite a few of their side entry spoke hub designs have a circlip or washer, or cover cap, partially or fully covering the head of the spoke, to stop this happening (how successful this is/was/will be I don't fully know, as all the dislocated/broken spokes on Mavic wheels I've had to deal with were at the thread root or inside the captive nipple at the other end).
You're right. As a wheel builder I have sometimes been asked to build wheels which I regard as unsafe for various reasons - and refused. Better international standards are needed BUT any reputable manufacturer has no excuse, any failure mode analysis would raise the example given in this video.
"Don't crash and you won't get hurt". I said that to my self after I did a "face plant" from my bicycle and my nose bled all over a board walk this pass Monday.
I was very lucky with a set of Sun Ringle wheels with straight pull ball ended spokes, on a brand new bike, where the spoke nipples started failing after about 3 days from new. First warning was when I stopped and saw a spoke jump straight out of the front wheel and land on the ground in front of me, this was the first of several failures over the coming days. If I had a few fail together at full speed on a rocky descent, there's no question that the wheel would have collapsed. No issues, apart from a fatigue failed rear axle a few months later once I rebuilt with brass spoke nipples. This was from a supposedly 'reputable' manufacturer...
Thanks!
Checked the hubs on my Mavic Allroads and... yep, they have this problem. Well, sort of. It look like the lacing is such that each spoke is prevented from falling out by two other spokes and sideway entrances are going one from the inside and one from the outside. It seems that they did try to mitigate the issue.
I just skipped all that and went for alloy wheels, but its a bit different for people making commuter/travel/cruiser bikes.
Amen. One quibble: if all (or a majority) of the spoke heads pop out of their hub flange pockets, the rim is held captive on the hub and turns into a greatly exaggerated 'clown wheel', and can't roll off down the road. But you'd still faceplant pretty badly.
I was going to say that it'd be fine in a velodrome, but accidents can still happen even on a perfect track. It's not just bumps on the trail.
Relying on the cassette to hold the spokes in place in the hub only works if the bottom gear sprocket has no cutouts. Otherwise the loose spoke will jam in one of the cutouts in the sprocket, lock the freewheel and drag the cranks forwards, leading to a high chance of a crash or a bent derailleur/hanger if the rider doesn't keep turning the cranks till they stop the bike.
Yep, totally agree with your interpretation. I’ve had to sort five wheels with this issue in the last two years. There’s something chilling when a rider hands you a hub and a separate rim full of spokes when only one spoke has failed. Luckily no nasty stories.
It’s clearly a design dominated by the need for an easy way to both machine a hub and robot-build a wheel. The moment the overall tension is lost there’s nothing holding good spokes in place. I’ve looked at lacing wire around spokes to lock them in place but it doesn’t look nice or can’t be done effectively. It’s over to the manufacturer to add redundancy to the design, cascade failure is not acceptable.
Wow, and here are people telling me its a non-issue. If you would like to email me some more info regarding those wheelsets i would be interested to see them! Peak Torque at outlook dott com
Hi, sorry I can’t offer much. For context I’m an amateur wheel builder and my head usually goes down when I see elegant-over-complicated wheels (I’m an old fart). I don’t keep records of clients & jobs. In terms of the fails linked to spoke unlatching, here’s what I remember. Two were Mavic as you’d shown. One had a spoke fail whilst stationary, he’d crashed a week earlier and thought he might have knelt on the wheel during his fall. This was the one that came in two parts. The other was a pothole on a fast training ride, no fall but rider felt very lucky that the whole wheel hadn’t dismantled whilst he scrambled to a stop. The third was a no-name MTB hub, “they looked good on eBay”, that was a complete collapse but being an MTBer he was dressed for it and was already falling for another reason!! Of the other two, I seem to remember one was or looked like a Novatec Atom (?) and the other was a road no-name in a style similar to the Mavics but a looser fit.
As I say, it’s a while back and I either rebuilt with a new rim or advised them to get new wheels where every component was tied in mechanically, not on a song, prayer & a spit of friction.
As an aside, a decade ago I demonstrated building a wheel at a school and to show how the spokes work in tension I rode a part finished wheel with all the spokes loose & sloppy. It is staggering how bad a wheel can be and yet not fail suddenly, plenty of “leak before breach” redundancy.
Best of luck.
Excellent!
Thank you......Aust.
Have a lot more spokes. That'll reduce the potential of the spokes poppong out of the hub when detentioning, because the load is being spread more evenly.
However, a 20 spokes hub or less sounds like a system that absolutely needs a different kind of redundancy than a 32 spokes wheel.
Nice video there mate.
My MTB wheel has straight pull spokes that are not side pull...i.e. through a through hole. I snapped 2 spokes and the wheel made it all the way down a French red DH run with no problems. I cannot imagine the injuries from a 'rapid unscheduled de-lacing'
@@tobywhitehead7488 french red ie a Welsh Blue 😝
The threaded hub-spoke interface that CRW started and is used by NEWMEN as well seems like the best solution to me. Fixes this issue and gives you more freedom with hub and spoke hesign by not having to feed a spoke through a properly sized hole
After breaking spokes in hundreds of wheels and the expense, Mavic came out with straight pull spokes, and I thought the spoke breakage days were over. But NO!! Still the same weak spokes as always. I thought the elbow of traditional spokes were the weak link and they were getting cut at the elbow from the stress., but no. What I don't understand is my motorcycles NEVER break spokes, and the spoke gage is not all that much more that my heavy-duty wheels with 14 gage. Motorcycles have 100's of times more power running through the spokes, a cyclist only has maybe one horsepower and torque and only for a short period time. A wheel with a 10 gage and 28 spokes may last a lifetime instead of what we have today that only last a few thousand miles. Why do we still have weak wheels today?
I don't know if you've checked, but a motorcycle is really heavy and pushed around by a huge motor. So there's that.
But I agree, they should be making these spokes 2 or 3 times stronger than they need to be to remove all chance of breaking. Maybe that would end up making them too big? I don't know. I do know I have never broken a spoke, so I don't know how some people are breaking them all the time.
@@TheJohnreeves Never broke a spoke? Do you buy new wheels every 2000 miles, or rebuild your wheels with new spokes every 2000 miles? Maybe you're using all carbon wheels with no spokes? How can any serious rider never break a spoke? wheels with these tiny 14 gage spokes only last a few thousand miles. ( I am a former pro rider, and still today ride 10,000 miles a year, and still train for fitness at high intensity) I live in the most mountainous state of America where there are many sea level to high altitude climbing. Climbing like this and strong time trialing will place high stress on wheels.
running out to the garage to check my wheels right now.
Someone could design a cover plate to retrofit the hyper hubs. If only there was a mechanical engineer who could do that 😅
I reckon it was those 180mm rotors
It's easier and faster to build..so is the use of straight pull lacing. No other reason. Higher productivity and profits!
I’m beginning to think that Peak Torque is the Ralph Nader of the bicycle industry.
@@vadouvan unsafe at any speed. Very apt.
@@PeakTorque Indeed!
You could also argue for disc wheels designed in this way it may also have additional forces contributing to the hub area causing increased stresses..
Sounds a bit racist but I have researched a lot of Chinese product and their primary aim is to get product on the market, bugger safety conditions and there is no regulatory body for code enforcement in China. That being said, I did buy a Giant bike which had Swiss racing wheels on it. At the 12 month mark, one spoke broke out from the wheel rim and the rim itself buckled. They told me in the shop that the wheel was designed for a limited weight, once the event occurred, not when they sold me the bike. I was over that weight restriction by 12kg so was on a time bomb. I then bought Shimano road training wheels, from another shop, and the bike has been OK for the remaining 9 years. As a special mark for the occasion the spoke left a nice crescent moon scratch across my calf muscle from the tension release.
Good video! - Could you maybe do something on speed wobble? I just had an heavy accident with broken bones because of it. I have “great” equipment still the wobble occurs with sidewind every time.
Speed wobble is primarily a mass balancing issue. You need the rotational mass around the steering axis in front of the steering axis. Short stems and/or a rearward hand position, as well as low offset forks (increased/excessive trail and rearward mass balance) and lack of system stiffness exacerbate the issue.
@@neiltwaterhouse It’s a “regular” Canyon Aeroad. Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels. I would say this should not happen. Have to talk to Canyon. It’s a really sad situation since it’s the second new bike where this happened to me.
TLDR version; Don't re-invent the wheel. 😀
Ha, I never seen these types of hubs, before this... But I sure will never own one.... but it seems like a hub nut that covers the exit side would prevent the spoke end from coming loose ....
Straight pull spokes will only save the manufacturer the time to actually bend the spoke, according to Roger Musson. Just use regular old J-bend spokes in a Hope pro 4 or 5 front hub. i9 if you are feeling fancy and have too much money in your pocket. For heavy riders, above 100kg, straight spokes feel really nice. Lighter riders can try butted spokes, but they do twist during truing and can be a bit finicky to know if the spoke is tight or just twisted up, that will release later when you ride.
In any other industry, this would be investigated, and a solution like you suggest would be introduced rapidity through legislation.
what's so bad about old style hubs where the spoke threads through a hole? True, I can't 'have fancy carbon fibre or aero-section spokes, but I've never thought I needed them.
Loved the vid, Would you reccomend the CRW’s from panda podium?
Second this, do the CRW wheels fit the bill in terms of safety?
04:00 beautiful record hub!
Good point, well done on making people aware of it earlier. I believe the new Hypers have a cover. The DT Swiss I have are much better designed. I’m looking sideways at my hypers now… maybe I can glue in the spokes? 😂 I need to up my tooling then maybe I can make my own covers. 🤔
I was thinking a similar thing the first time I saw the "hook flange" hubs that are designed for Berd spokes. Although, the looped ends overlap in opposing directions which might help hold them on the hooks. Also, it's harder to "push" a string...
Great PSA!
Amen.
Fuck. Me walking to my hyper wheels feeling anxiety... I am probably gonna design and print some clip/cap to reduce the chance they rattle out in case off spoke tension failures. Thanks for pushing this out and addressing it. ❤
Cadex Ultra 50 wheels also have same structure =( After crash few spokes just went out of hub on front wheel, not all , but still.... crazy
Spot on rant, needs more attention from the bike industry. The vast majority of riders don't need the performance gains if it comes at the expense of safety... its why I wouldn't touch carbon spoked wheels (the early R-Sys's rapidly disassembled themselves in a similar manner, the hubs making their bid for freedom from the constraints of the wheel) and carbon hookless narrow road format can similarly get in the bin.
Was that the wheel the VN editor crashed with? Recalled and then the replacements started failing too? An employee of this company told me the failure was caused by the tire coming off and stopping the wheel rotating, saying this particular brand/model of tire was known for this. When asked WTF they didn't make this public so the consumer wouldn't mount this tire on their wheels I was told the big-brand marketer of these tires was a big user of their wheels on the bikes they sold and they didn't want to piss them off. No s__t! That tells you how much these mofo's care about the safety of the folks who buy this crap! Just like BOEING airliners!
@@larryt.atcycleitalia5786 Am a huge fan of Mavic wheels, have used many pairs in my cycling life mtb & road, the Ksyriums were some of the best allround wheels of their time.... but about 15 years ago they released the R-Sys with carbon spoked front.... and pictures emerged similar to above of complete hub separation... well documented at the time. It put me off carbon spoked wheels for life - when the potential failure mode for carbon is understood it is fairly obvious that some applications are not well suited to the material.
Excellent video!
A j-bend cx-ray is the spoke of choice. Also, someone in the uk to hand build it.
In a case like this where the loss of tension seems so critical wouldn't there still be a risk that, while the spokes are still attached to the hub and rim, the mechanical connection is lost and the spokes end up twisting and/or braking around the hub anyway?
You can ride a wheel with spokes with no tension - just. Ask me how i know! The spokes will go into tension when your weight is on the bike, and that may be just enough to let you stop a bit better.
Very good points.
Black Inc 48 | 58 hub design is similar to the Winspace hub I think 🤔So not only chinese manufacturers
99.999% or more of spoke failure is due to rider overweight, ignoring service rules, uneven spoke tension, rumbling through potholes and over curbs, ignoring replacement rules after overloading.
if you can name so many reasons the spokes can fail, a fail safe design makes even more sense instead of just handing over the responsibility to the user...
My dreambike would have light wheels. For being trail and jumpworthy MTB wheels😅. So normal weight wheels but extra tough
Same issue as hook less rim or 737max. No FMECA (Failure Modes, Effects and Criticality Analysis) and greed. "Slighted holes" hub are faster to lace.
Well, I was going to go on some retro grouch rant, but, my old mavic askium wheels are kinda like this... There's a sort of rubber washer on the outside, which might stop them from going out, but, they might be able to fall out on the inside...
Ask Zipp about this, they had issues with the 88 hub and had to recall them.
@@user-bq5nl8xf3y was that that about the hub flanges snapping under tension? Thats a slightly different issue
The recall was for the flange itself breaking, that's why the later model 88 hubs without the spoke cap were not effected, because they have more flange material.
@@PeakTorque Yes, that’s the one. Definitely a different issue, however same outcome in some cases.
Oh yes, the point below is always talk to the person selling the bike about the product limitations and areas of concern.
Thanks a lot for the heads up. For someone who couldn’t be less of an engineer: are there specific brands of wheelsets, which do this right? Wouldn’t won’t to bet my physical safety on this.
Hi. Excellent observation. And am I right to recall that you’ve previously told us that the risk of this happening is higher with carbon spokes? Less elasticity, less stretch, therefore become slack with a smaller rim deformation? Buyer beware.
What about the berd spokes and the whole flange hook system thing. seems like its as dangerous as this
I use Honda jazz alloys on my bike
That is not lack of redundancy, it is a kinetically unstable structure.
Certain components need PT certification!
@peaktorque ... so, given both your engineering and DIY-manufacturing skills (I'm thinking of the things that you've made that you've shown on the channel e.g. custom mudguard etc) - is there anything that can be done to rectify this issue on an existing set of wheels? Asking as a) it turns out I have such a set b) I have a friend who's also quite skilled in such bits of manufacturing who I could tap up and c) I hate throwing away perfectly serviceable items just because of a comparatively minor aspect to the design. Plus, much though it's important to learn about problems, I'm more enthused to learn about solutions. Thanks!
can you release a 3d printed clip on cap design for winspace hubs?
it would be helpfull for existing owners
Exactly what I was thinking! Let’s see if someone comes up with a “solution”.
So which wheels are affected by this problem?? Are all the Chinese brands guilty of this?. Brilliant vid!!.
"New" design doesn't mean "better" design. Same reason I refuse to use carbon, disc brakes, electronic shifting, gear boxes, belt drives, etc.
I’m not sure the cassette would hold the spokes in. I’m looking at my Mavic Allroad rear and there’s some space for the spokes the slip out
DT swiss hubs, hooked rims and brass nipples are a starting point when I look for wheels
Had a Mavic wheel drop spokes and crash me on a step descent after hitting a bump (tree root under the road, size of a speed bump and couldn't see in morning glare). Over a thousand dollars in damage, I was quite hurt having crashed at about 50-60kmh.
@@afewspokesloose2699 many people in these comments saying im being fantastical and this doesn’t happen! Hope you are ok now.
@@PeakTorque long ago now, around 7 years. Injuries weren't too bad, I skipped work that day and was back to pretty regular training within the week just with an array of road rash, hematomas and aches by sheer luck. I did some analysis on my bike same day and came to the conclusion that was the mechanism of the crash because I hadn't lost control of the bars from the bump and I've hated the hub design ever since and will not buy a wheel with it.
I think that was when I decided to pony up and have my mechanic build me a training wheelset because I was sick of all the bad design choices in commercial ones killing my wheels prematurely.
Seeing as I might have your attention, a big thanks for the videos over time. Your analysis is fantastic.