Bringing back RDJ is the shark jump. I'm calling it now: Tom Holland Spiderman is gonna see RDJ Doom take the mask off and be like, "...Mr. Stark?" before being punched through a wall, and it will kill all believability in the story or character archs.
I might agree with you if you were to explain how that would kill all believability. If Doom is recognized as Stark then the believability will depend on the explanation given. As mentioned in the video there are plausible explanations and there are interesting directions to take the story. Now whether they'll do that or not will determine if this a cash grab or not
I hate the "they tried doom 3 times and it didnt work" argument. It didnt work because they didnt adapt doom properly. Dooms power set alone has never been properly represented in film, neither has his personal character motivations like his mother.
The fact people are more excited for Peter Parker's reaction at seeing Doctor Doom's face, then for Dr. Doom and Mr. Fantastic dynamic, just tells you how bad of an idea it was to cast RDJ as Doom. Doctor Doom is one of Marvel's best villains, and the fact people are already calling him an Evil Iron Man, just tells you how much Marvel screwed up.
@@izzy3166 oh shut up. I get it and don’t care. Cause that’s not what’s happening, it’s simple as that. It’ll be too much of distraction on the story as a variant, takes away from FF element. He can alter his look even or keep mask on. Or they just don’t see him. He can reinvent himself acting different way not just evil iron man. They’re saying Victor Von doom for a reason, now go talk to the void.
Jonathan Majors brought A-game performances to Kang. It's not his fault his character was defeated by ants. And that's my worry with Doom. If the cooks in the kitchen are trash, it doesn't matter how great of a performance RDJ delivers if Doom is defeated by Captain Marvel's cat. 😆
Or was he? Yall don’t let stuff play out. That Kang was coming back stronger as the beyonder and meant to lose, built a film around him spoke of being the conqueror, that other Kangs feared him they vanished him but Yall don’t let things play out, then legal stuff happened so no one will see.
@@r4pstar343 if he didn’t have a legal issues there would be no “chances” they’d keep telling the story and fans would see what they were doing with and why
Who said Kang never stuck the landing?? Jonathan majors ate that role up and was the only thing that made ant man 3 watchable for a lot of people, it was very off putting that antman beat him, but the audience knew that wasn’t the last we would see of Kang.
Majors killed that role I really dislike people saying he wasn't feard...it was cuz ant man really wasn't a good match up to bring that grit out and they let and man defeat him which was crazy
Fans will always have opinions, positive or negative. People will root for an underdog and then always want the favorite to fall. I have full confidence in Marvel Studios to bring us a compelling and exciting movie. That combination in charge of these films have yet to fail.
I don’t think they’re even planning on having him be the son of Howard stark..it’s just going to be a victor Von doom born to different parents and their just happens to look like Tony stark in MCU universe ..
I think RDJ’s tone changed a few months ago because he had achieved what he was trying to do. He won an OSCAR and proved that he’s not just that Marvel guy. Now that he climbed that mountain, he was open to coming back to the money
Me personally, I love the move. RDJ is great, and I think he’ll be great as Doom. A very different Doom, but a good Doom. But I do agree with Kris, that it’s probably a bit desperate.
I don't understand why ppl don't realise that Marvel literally owns these characters. They have always tinkered with origins of characters when adapting to movies. So doim being an original character can have some multiversal connection to stark and there we have it.
so glad we finally get to hear Kris' input. she explained how I feel about it so much better. It's nice to have someone with a counter argument on the show, not just to have one, but because they genuinely feel that way. And it does feel off to me as well, even with the comics proving it, it doesn't feel like the right time.
I'm so happy Kris was able to voice her opinion. I figuerd other two would agree with John. I think it's a desperate move. There are other actors such as Cullen Murphy who can play Doom. Let's hope for best and see what happens.
I don’t think I’ve ever been more conflicted on a creative decision. ON the one hand, I agree with Campea’s point about narrative potential - but there are so many other things about this that don’t sit right with me. The Pros: 1 If you’re going to replace Kang, Doom is absolutely a big enough villain to do it, and worthy of an Avengers movie. 2 If he is some kind of Tony variant, it could be a compelling look at how Tony’s life might have turned out if he’d taken a darker path “I see a suit of armor around the world” 3 The presence of a guy who looks like Tony allows for a bunch of emotional scenes with Pepper, Morgan, Happy, and Rhodey (and even Harley from Iron Man 3) - anyone who looked up to the real Tony. 4 Bringing in a version of Tony at the end of Phase 6 allows Phases 1 - 6 to feel like somewhat of a singular arc, with threads that go all the way back to Iron Man 1. The Cons: 1 Bringing in an evil Tony after the good one died - I don’t know what the message is here. “Sometimes your heroes return as villains and have to be put down?” That’s a pretty deppressing way to end six phases of MCU (unless he has a redemption arc or something). It reminds me of when Coulson died in SHIELD Season 5 - only to be replaced by Sarge, the evil Coulson look-alike in Season 6. It’s pretty disheartening - and a little cheesy. “That guy you like? He’s bad now.” If an evil Tony had shown up back when the good Tony was still around, it could have acted like a cautionary tale for the good Tony not to go down the wrong path. But bringing him in after our Tony died just feels weird and empty. Who’s benefit is Tony-Doom for? Say what you want about Kang - his storyline actually had a meaningful dilemma attached to it, about free will and control. Kang himself may have been a goofball - but the Loki series set up a story where the Avengers prove you can let the Multiverse flourish without it devolving into utter destruction. The whole point was that the Avengers were going to do a better job than He Who Remains did. You can defeat evil without enslaving good - that’s a meaningful message. And that’s not even taking into account the narrative potential between Kang and the Fantastic Four. Kang is Reed’s descendant. There could have been all kinds of parallels between Kang losing himself in his science and Reed struggling with the same thing, and learning to have empathy for others. Because empathy is ultimately the difference between the kind of person who creates the TVA and someone who fights for a better multiverse. 2 Robert Downey Jr is NOT Doctor Doom. I’m sorry, he’s just not. I don’t see it at all. He’s going to have to act his butt off to even make it remotely believable. We’ve waited since 2015 to have a proper new MCU Doom and now they’ve given us this. Now we have to wait again for someone else to give us a proper Doom. We have to wait another ten odd years for a new Doom reboot to feel fresh. It also feel suspiciously cynical, as if they’re hoping we’ll be too distracted by RDJ’s fame to care whether or not he’s a good Doom. 3 He’s coming in at the last minute with very little build up. Aside from the ending of Quantumania and his characterization in Loki, the MCU did a pretty reasonable job building Kang. He controls the people who control Time. It doesn’t get much more threatening than that. He had connections to Loki, Ant-Man, and potentially Fantastic Four and Doctor Strange if they’d played their cards right. But with Doom, he’s coming out of nowhere at the eleventh hour. So it’s going to feel very haphazard. And while it’s true that Thanos had less than a minute of screen time in between Guardians of the Galaxy and Infinity War, he was still established as early as The Avengers. He was the force behind the villain of that film. So he was indirectly connected to the Avengers and the Guardians. It brings back memories of Rise of Skywalker suddenly reintroducing Palpatine at the eleventh hour because someone thought it was a good idea to kill Snoke. As dumb as the Kang stuff became, it’s still pretty disappointing to abandon any villain with that much build up.
They didnt make Kang as threatening he should have been .....he's called Kang the conqueror bcuz he always wins ....but he loses to ant man the so called most violent variant nah man lol
I swear to god they better not be thinking about another time travel scenario where the avengers go back and get iron man version of rdj to be the one to defeat the evil version of himself as doom…
Idk... the russo bros said they had a concept for avengers 5 literally right after endgame. So i don't think it's a reach to say that this has actually been in the works and not a desperate move.
I completely understand why bringing back RDJ as Doctor Doom feels desperate and reactionary. I'm sure they have been in talks with RDJ about returning for a while but I do not believe Avengers 5 was always going to be Doomsday, that feels reactionary (especially when they could have simply recast Kang).
I actually liked the Kang variant characters. The problem was the ridiculous defeat at the hands of Ant-Man. I'm sorry but you were beat by a tier 2 level character despite supposedly being THE top Kang variant... Makes no sense. Kang the Conquer needed to be devastating and world changing
But no one is talking about how nothing in the MCU so far has ever referenced Doom. Idk how this is going to go. It’s either going to be Amazing or A huuuge let down
I’m sorry, I do think RDJ as doom is an interesting idea and they must have a good idea with it. But why is marvel allergic to recasting kang??? It’s the multiverse and he is the easiest character to actually recast. Im sure the Russo bros and the same writers could have really cooked there. Especially if the leaks were true about kang variants popping up in the other films and shows.
So, is John. It's just a matter of one's own opinion. Some ppl think it's desperate some think it's not. It's that simple. There's literally no right or wrong.
I think the fact that everyone keeps saying it’s desperate proves that it’s not. Getting a new actor would’ve been the easy route, and much cheaper route, and the route most of us would’ve preferred. Bringing in RDJ brings so many more challenges. I’m actually excited to see how they do this and think this could be really cool.
It absolutely is desperate with a capital D. There is no reason to specifically cast RDJ other than because you want the speculation and eyeballs. I completely refuse the idea that RDJ is the only actor who could play Doom. There are many wonderful unused actors in the MCU who could play the role. I have no doubt in RDJ's ability to do a great job, but its a weirdly limiting decision. Because RDJ has specifically come back only for these two Avengers movies, which means that at least his version of Doom will have no long term connection to the Fantastic Four. I find it genuinely problematic that people are more looking forward to Peter Parker facing off against Doom and dealing with someone that resembles Tony, than Reed Richards.
@@funkysam1345 Well, that is the assumption right now. But the fact that our first introduction to a Dr Doom is likely a Stark variant and not the real Dr Doom from the comics doesn't sit well with me.
@@nikunjdixit1175 hi nikunj. I understand your concern. I have a slightly long take on that. It'll take time for me to write the response. It's a slightly long one. I would love to engage in deeper conversation.
Remember, RDJ is not a variant of Tony Stark as Iron Man. He is Victor Von Doom in the alternate universe of the Fantastic Four of the 60's style futuristic world.
I was introduced to kang the conqueror in a cartoon called avengers earths mightiest heroes. I, in that moment wondered how I’d never heard of him because he was awesome. I then did research on the character and really became a fan. The kang presented in the mcu had none of the characteristics that made me fall in love with him. Completely different character than the one that caught my attention in the first place.
If this is true than Robert Downey Jr. is no different than the Rock putting himself over the character….Dr. Doom is too awesome and has too good of a story intertwined with the Fantastic 4 to be somebody’s variant….so pathetic
This is a great short term move, HORRIBLE long term move we could’ve had great movies with doom. But now we know we only have fun for two and none are fantastic 4 movies
This is a situation where I can only see it working 1 way, seeing as how this saga is all about the multiverse I think it’d be kinda neat to have a variant of Tony Stark be Doctor Doom, because as John said it’s kinda cool to have the man who was once earth’s greatest defender now be earth’s greatest threat, I think that’s a great idea for the presumably biggest villain of this multiverse saga, because I don’t know who the hell else they could build up to for Secret Wars, what I don’t want is an Ant Man And The Wasp: Quantimania situation where Darren came back as M.O.D.O.K and they treated it like a joke, I don’t want Doom to take off his mask, we see it’s Tony Stark and everyone’s like “Oh my god that’s so weird” and it’s treated like this funny scene, I want him to show he’s Tony and everyone gets chills and is like “Oh shit” I think what they need to do above all else is take this choice seriously, don’t treat is as a joke, make it menacing, if they do that I could see it working, but if they go the M.O.D.O.K route I think it’s gonna totally fall flat on its face
What is the point of bringing back as Victor Von Doom? So he's supposed to be Victor Von Doom for the next 10 years? Why couldn't they get another actor?
Because you won’t get any of the narrative possibilities we can now have with RDJ playing the role. What will Peter’s reaction be to his dead mentor now wearing the face of the world’s next big threat? How will Banner react to this? Will that break Banner and possibly bring on a chain of events that lead to the angry Hulk we know and love to come back? And what about Tony’s daughter? There’s so much they can tap into, there’s no guarantees on how well they do this of course, but I absolutely see the in-universe value of bringing RDJ back.
Wow, some of you guys are taking actors and imaginary characters too seriously. RDJ is an actor no matter how much you aligned him to the Iron Man role he is still an actor who can play many characters. By the way who are fictional
It would be kind of cool if they did the Adam Warlock Infinity War/Crusade split but to Tony Stark. In the Comice when Adama uses the Gems it splits his good and evil into two parts, the Magnus and Goddess, they could do something like that head but only the evil saying the good Tony Sacrificed himself, but the evil was cast out and that is what become DOOM. It is a Different Take on established lore. This could lead to a way for Tony to Come Back as well as Iron Man but the good side to return to help defeat Doom.
I've been checked out of the MCU for a while now. However, now I find myself excited for Fantastic Four, Captain America : BNW and definitely this! Glad to hear he's actually playing Victor Von Doom and not a Tony Stark variant. RDJ could play this villian SOLID!!!
It’s not desperate it’s people that like to work together and have good report with each other choosing to work together again. I look at it like Christopher Nolan casts a lot of the same actors they don’t play the same type of characters in the same movie. Now if they don’t have him be Victor and play a different role and he’s just a Tony variant I take it all back. But if you have the same people return for different roles I love that. American Horror Story, Quentin Tarantino Films, even Chris Evan’s played human torch and then played Captain America. It can work.
This article definitely feels like either way Kang was gonna get usurped by Dr Doom given we were diving into the plot of Secret Wars Probably avengers facing off the council only to realize there’s an ever bigger threat coming.
The 1994 ROGER CORMAN Produced FANTASTIC FOUR Movie also had a DOCTOR DOOM that was played by Actor JOSEPH CULP (Son of Late Actor ROBERT CULP) & JOSEPH CULP'S take on DOCTOR DOOM is actually pretty good despite it being very Campy & over the Top
Yep. People got caught uo with the Russos coming back and their lack of good projects outside the MCU but the writers of 4 of the best MCU movies are back and that means a lot.
Kris 100% correct. It’s desperate. But it can work but that’s not the issue my concern is the character shouldn’t be a 2 off avengers arc. The character is too valuable that it deserves multiple films like Loki. As long we get the real earth 616 Victor von doom I’m fine with this.
The more i hear about RDJ as Doom the less excited i get for these movies, Dr Doom was the character i was most looking forward to seeing what small or A-list actor could own the performance and shake the mcu, instead they pretty much confirmed to the audience that they really are uninspired and desperate.
They went way too early in to the multiverse direction. You just opened space with Guardians, Cpt. Marvel and Eternals, you have the Quantum Realm and Time Travel, "new" worlds they havent even really explored yet. Then they introduce the Multiverse and went all in.....and lost all stakes imo.
When I saw the clip of RDJ reveal, I stared at my phone saying "noooooooo" and "why" He is Iron Man. I don't think Doom, I think Iron Man. This feels like a backslide. I pray they change everything about RDJ. If we see his face or hear his voice then your just setting yourself up for failure.
Remember at the end of end game when we heard the metal being struck with a hammer? I wonder if they are going to incorporate that tease into the doom character.
I think Marvel and the fanbase at large overreacted to a really bad 2023. No Way Home and Deadpool & Wolverine are loved by the fanbase and both have combined to make nearly $3.5B at the box office. Multiverse of Madness made nearly $1B. GoTG Vol.3 crushed it. Shang-Chi was very well received. Wakanda Forever was also well received and did as well as it could after losing its main star in Chadwick Boseman. Even Love & Thunder, although much maligned, is the No.1 highest grossing Thor film domestically. Marvel shouldn't be getting desperate, they just need to focus on quality, controlling some of these budgets, and making the films people actually want to go see.
2023 was a direct response to 2022 and people now getting fed up with the MCU. DP/W and NWH were just crowd pleasers that in NWH case, hasn’t aged terribly well as a film which will be the same for DP/W once it leaves Theaters. MOM also falls into that to similar degree. What Marvel needs is to start making films genuinely good films again and making characters that we care about and can connect to with genuinely good stories, not cameo-fests and bad cgi, with a thin plot that only exists to simulate those bad cgi.
If this wasn't the plan all along, it should have been. Narratively, this makes sense for the MCU. Taking the best of what Doom's character represents in the comics and fit it into the movies the world has made the most successful in history. Doom/Iron Man are almost like two sides of the same coin anyways. Marvel comics has 60+ years of history and stories, but they also have a lot of redundant characters too. That's ok in monthly book releases, but that doesn't work so well in popular movies.
@@TheGameBelt646 both Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfields parts in No Way Home got leaked but was still the greatest moments in that film, it might leak but they played it off as deepfakes and Photoshop which for the majority of audiences believed and the reactions from theaters speak for themselves. Also look at the cameos in D&W, most of those were never leaked. If they've done it before Marvel can do it again. I still think they should've kept it under wraps and made it a bigger surprise upon release!
It is definitely desperate on Marvel's part. They know that they're guaranteed to get a lot of people in seats simply by bringing Robert Downey Jr. back in any capacity. Bringing him back as arguably the most dangerous and most popular Marvel villain of all time will further bring in plenty of people in those theater seats. It all depends on how good the movie actually is and how it's executed will this decision either age insanely well and be 1 of the best casting decisions in film history, or quite possibly be the worst casting decision in film history, Only time will tell.
I don't know how John can seriously with a straight face saying, "desperate would be bringing Thanos back" but then in the same breath say that bringing RDJ back isn't at all the same? Like- it's REALLY not that different John yeah he's playing "a different character" (which remains to truly be seen) but it's still dipping back into the well and dragging back an actor who already had a really great send off. And like- outside that obviously there's much larger implications too, I don't know sounds bad, feels bad imo.
What pisses me off about this whole thing is that it’s not that it’s an RDJ as Doom… but it’s that this is how they’re doing doom in the MCU for the first time ever… this is now meant to be the official Dr Doom portrayal cinematically and be done correct as the new big bad of the MCU…. This kind of hype should be for a brand new exceptional actor added to the universe to be the next big bad Dr Doom… doing variant or plays on stuff before original versions just feels really off especially when it’s the dude who was cast to start the universe as iron man
They’re in the “multiverse” saga, so it completely fits in with the themes they’ve established. And after Secret Wars they will do a soft reboot, and recast doom as a diff actor.
just under 21 months until it’s released.. surely everything is at an advanced point already with story etc?.. They’d have to start filming relatively soon if they’re filming back to back.. especially with how VFX and CGI heavy these movies tend to be?! Wasn’t Infinity War and Endgame filmed back to back over 6-9 months? If you say 9 months on the high end, and they start in December.. they’re giving themselves about 8 months for any reshoots and VFX/CGI to be done..
Defeated by Antman? Or was he? Yall don’t let stuff play out. That Kang was coming back stronger as the beyonder and meant to lose as the others meant to lose , but this one they built a film around him spoke of being the conqueror, that other Kangs feared him they vanished him but Yall don’t let things play out, then legal stuff happened so no one will see.
It’s all about perception. Why should the audience be intimidated by an antagonist who lost to to a B tier marvel character in their first feature length film?
@@frankie8387 let them not be intimidated til did come back stronger. Then have it make sense. Thanos looked weak when Ronan betrayed him and he never went after him. Took 18 movies ? The point of Kangs being so many is lost on ppl. They were showing up everywhere and can’t all win. Smart fans should know this. Building to something. But it doesn’t matter legal issues won’t see it but they’d have had to accept it prior
I personally think it is somewhat poetic that Downey will be the one who ushered in the MCU, and the one to ultimately usher it out. After Secret Wars I don’t think it’ll ever be the same hype as it was.
"Doomsday" is almost two years away, and I'm already exhausted by this recurring conversation. I will concede it feels desperate to cast RDJ as Doom, and it has a high chance of failure. However, we don't know exactly this is going to work and the individuals behind this---Feige, the Russos, RDJ, McFeely---get the benefit of the doubt considering the excellent films they've made. I totally get the uproar, but I'm going to try to go into this with an open mind.
You know, something can be both desperate and genius. It’s true, people haven’t taken to Kang, and there is no way they would allow Jonathan Majors to continue the role. But let’s not act like recasting wasn’t an option. Kang is a multiversal character, they could’ve easily recast him. But the fact is that audiences aren’t invested in Kang. RDJ as Doom gets butts in seats. It’s absolutely reactionary, but marvel needs an actor they can trust. A lot of their talent has proven to be unpredictable, including Majors, so they need a seasoned actor they know will stay out of trouble. I think RDJ will only be doom for these avengers films, then once they’re ready, they’ll introduce the prime Doctor doom with a new actor. This move is reactionary, but it’s a smart move for marvel as a business.
Jon used to say "Never put the actor over the character". Clearly he no longer feels that way. This is just stunt casting.
He drilled that into my head lol
I love Kris because she doesn't just fall in line with what Jon says like others on this show.
That little, “let’s agree to disagree” at the end made me so happy🤣🤣🤣
It was so refreshing hearing her share an opinion that opposed Johns, like honestly😂
Since they brought back RDJ as Doom then they should bring back Terrance Howard as Kang. LOL
Lol
To me, bringing RDJ back definitely smells of desperation.
I'm with Kris on this one.
I'm in full agreement with Kris. It just feels a little off.
Bringing back RDJ is the shark jump. I'm calling it now: Tom Holland Spiderman is gonna see RDJ Doom take the mask off and be like, "...Mr. Stark?" before being punched through a wall, and it will kill all believability in the story or character archs.
I might agree with you if you were to explain how that would kill all believability. If Doom is recognized as Stark then the believability will depend on the explanation given. As mentioned in the video there are plausible explanations and there are interesting directions to take the story. Now whether they'll do that or not will determine if this a cash grab or not
I honestly don't care about if Its desperate or if it's a smart move... all I want is a good marvel movie
I’m on Kris with this one. It is sign of desperation from Disney. Campea just believes in everything he reads or hears.
Just look at the crazy Paycheck Marvel is paying to RDJ and tell me, they are not desperate.
I hate the "they tried doom 3 times and it didnt work" argument. It didnt work because they didnt adapt doom properly. Dooms power set alone has never been properly represented in film, neither has his personal character motivations like his mother.
I love Kris Carr’s response here.
John Campea, don’t loose her.
The fact people are more excited for Peter Parker's reaction at seeing Doctor Doom's face, then for Dr. Doom and Mr. Fantastic dynamic, just tells you how bad of an idea it was to cast RDJ as Doom.
Doctor Doom is one of Marvel's best villains, and the fact people are already calling him an Evil Iron Man, just tells you how much Marvel screwed up.
They are misguided since they won’t see Stark
@@izzy3166 nah prefer he’s not
@@izzy3166 Tony isn't a variant of Doom. You must not be a true comic fan.
@@izzy3166 oh shut up. I get it and don’t care. Cause that’s not what’s happening, it’s simple as that. It’ll be too much of distraction on the story as a variant, takes away from FF element. He can alter his look even or keep mask on. Or they just don’t see him. He can reinvent himself acting different way not just evil iron man. They’re saying Victor Von doom for a reason, now go talk to the void.
I doubt it, the only one that would make sense is the what if version. You never know though.@@izzy3166
Jonathan Majors brought A-game performances to Kang. It's not his fault his character was defeated by ants. And that's my worry with Doom. If the cooks in the kitchen are trash, it doesn't matter how great of a performance RDJ delivers if Doom is defeated by Captain Marvel's cat. 😆
Or was he? Yall don’t let stuff play out. That Kang was coming back stronger as the beyonder and meant to lose, built a film around him spoke of being the conqueror, that other Kangs feared him they vanished him but Yall don’t let things play out, then legal stuff happened so no one will see.
@Humanipathic dont get a second chance to make a first time impression gotta sell us the character when they hit the screen
The 2 new avengers movies are being written/directed by the same crew as IW/endgame, that being said them saying yes to this idea is highly concerning
@@r4pstar343 if he didn’t have a legal issues there would be no “chances” they’d keep telling the story and fans would see what they were doing with and why
His performance as Kang was hammy and poorly written
Who said Kang never stuck the landing?? Jonathan majors ate that role up and was the only thing that made ant man 3 watchable for a lot of people, it was very off putting that antman beat him, but the audience knew that wasn’t the last we would see of Kang.
Still poorly executed the character
@@bigd4998yeah but they could have brought it out and still made a good Kang movie going forward
For all his flaws, Majors is an excellent actor. But marvel still had him beaten by Antman, that’s just unforgivable
Majors killed that role I really dislike people saying he wasn't feard...it was cuz ant man really wasn't a good match up to bring that grit out and they let and man defeat him which was crazy
Marvel needs to hire Jonathan Majors back and finish Kang.....
Fans will always have opinions, positive or negative. People will root for an underdog and then always want the favorite to fall.
I have full confidence in Marvel Studios to bring us a compelling and exciting movie. That combination in charge of these films have yet to fail.
As long as the Russo Bros are in charge of directing and writing, we’ll be in good hands.
I don’t think they’re even planning on having him be the son of Howard stark..it’s just going to be a victor Von doom born to different parents and their just happens to look like Tony stark in MCU universe ..
Love the honesty from Kris lol
I think RDJ’s tone changed a few months ago because he had achieved what he was trying to do. He won an OSCAR and proved that he’s not just that Marvel guy.
Now that he climbed that mountain, he was open to coming back to the money
'until Ant Man beat him' Kang was cooked for me after that. I'm sorry but I'm not taking anyone seriously that Paul Rudd can get the better of.
Me personally, I love the move. RDJ is great, and I think he’ll be great as Doom. A very different Doom, but a good Doom. But I do agree with Kris, that it’s probably a bit desperate.
" If your gonna do multiverse do it with the lights on " Kris Carr 2024
I don't understand why ppl don't realise that Marvel literally owns these characters. They have always tinkered with origins of characters when adapting to movies.
So doim being an original character can have some multiversal connection to stark and there we have it.
so glad we finally get to hear Kris' input.
she explained how I feel about it so much better.
It's nice to have someone with a counter argument on the show, not just to have one, but because they genuinely feel that way.
And it does feel off to me as well, even with the comics proving it, it doesn't feel like the right time.
Other casting announcements:
Galactus: Robert Downey Jr.
Mephisto: Robert Downey Jr.
Ghost Rider Robert Downey Jr.
I'm so happy Kris was able to voice her opinion. I figuerd other two would agree with John. I think it's a desperate move. There are other actors such as Cullen Murphy who can play Doom. Let's hope for best and see what happens.
I don’t think I’ve ever been more conflicted on a creative decision. ON the one hand, I agree with Campea’s point about narrative potential - but there are so many other things about this that don’t sit right with me.
The Pros:
1 If you’re going to replace Kang, Doom is absolutely a big enough villain to do it, and worthy of an Avengers movie.
2 If he is some kind of Tony variant, it could be a compelling look at how Tony’s life might have turned out if he’d taken a darker path “I see a suit of armor around the world”
3 The presence of a guy who looks like Tony allows for a bunch of emotional scenes with Pepper, Morgan, Happy, and Rhodey (and even Harley from Iron Man 3) - anyone who looked up to the real Tony.
4 Bringing in a version of Tony at the end of Phase 6 allows Phases 1 - 6 to feel like somewhat of a singular arc, with threads that go all the way back to Iron Man 1.
The Cons:
1 Bringing in an evil Tony after the good one died - I don’t know what the message is here. “Sometimes your heroes return as villains and have to be put down?”
That’s a pretty deppressing way to end six phases of MCU (unless he has a redemption arc or something).
It reminds me of when Coulson died in SHIELD Season 5 - only to be replaced by Sarge, the evil Coulson look-alike in Season 6. It’s pretty disheartening - and a little cheesy.
“That guy you like? He’s bad now.”
If an evil Tony had shown up back when the good Tony was still around, it could have acted like a cautionary tale for the good Tony not to go down the wrong path.
But bringing him in after our Tony died just feels weird and empty. Who’s benefit is Tony-Doom for?
Say what you want about Kang - his storyline actually had a meaningful dilemma attached to it, about free will and control.
Kang himself may have been a goofball - but the Loki series set up a story where the Avengers prove you can let the Multiverse flourish without it devolving into utter destruction.
The whole point was that the Avengers were going to do a better job than He Who Remains did.
You can defeat evil without enslaving good - that’s a meaningful message.
And that’s not even taking into account the narrative potential between Kang and the Fantastic Four.
Kang is Reed’s descendant. There could have been all kinds of parallels between Kang losing himself in his science and Reed struggling with the same thing, and learning to have empathy for others.
Because empathy is ultimately the difference between the kind of person who creates the TVA and someone who fights for a better multiverse.
2 Robert Downey Jr is NOT Doctor Doom. I’m sorry, he’s just not. I don’t see it at all. He’s going to have to act his butt off to even make it remotely believable.
We’ve waited since 2015 to have a proper new MCU Doom and now they’ve given us this.
Now we have to wait again for someone else to give us a proper Doom.
We have to wait another ten odd years for a new Doom reboot to feel fresh.
It also feel suspiciously cynical, as if they’re hoping we’ll be too distracted by RDJ’s fame to care whether or not he’s a good Doom.
3 He’s coming in at the last minute with very little build up.
Aside from the ending of Quantumania and his characterization in Loki, the MCU did a pretty reasonable job building Kang.
He controls the people who control Time. It doesn’t get much more threatening than that.
He had connections to Loki, Ant-Man, and potentially Fantastic Four and Doctor Strange if they’d played their cards right.
But with Doom, he’s coming out of nowhere at the eleventh hour.
So it’s going to feel very haphazard.
And while it’s true that Thanos had less than a minute of screen time in between Guardians of the Galaxy and Infinity War, he was still established as early as The Avengers.
He was the force behind the villain of that film. So he was indirectly connected to the Avengers and the Guardians.
It brings back memories of Rise of Skywalker suddenly reintroducing Palpatine at the eleventh hour because someone thought it was a good idea to kill Snoke.
As dumb as the Kang stuff became, it’s still pretty disappointing to abandon any villain with that much build up.
DESPERATE, as desperate as a man stuck in the middle of the desert with no water.
They didnt make Kang as threatening he should have been .....he's called Kang the conqueror bcuz he always wins ....but he loses to ant man the so called most violent variant nah man lol
I swear to god they better not be thinking about another time travel scenario where the avengers go back and get iron man version of rdj to be the one to defeat the evil version of himself as doom…
Def w Kris here. But if it's good then.....
Yeah no, I still think it’s a terrible idea to use RDJ.
I completely agree with Kris
Idk... the russo bros said they had a concept for avengers 5 literally right after endgame. So i don't think it's a reach to say that this has actually been in the works and not a desperate move.
I doubt this is A Russo idea, pretty sure they were brought in after Downey.
I completely understand why bringing back RDJ as Doctor Doom feels desperate and reactionary. I'm sure they have been in talks with RDJ about returning for a while but I do not believe Avengers 5 was always going to be Doomsday, that feels reactionary (especially when they could have simply recast Kang).
I actually liked the Kang variant characters. The problem was the ridiculous defeat at the hands of Ant-Man. I'm sorry but you were beat by a tier 2 level character despite supposedly being THE top Kang variant... Makes no sense.
Kang the Conquer needed to be devastating and world changing
They should never have made Kang the primary villain in that movie. Ant-Man has no business fighting and winning against a multiverse level threat.
But no one is talking about how nothing in the MCU so far has ever referenced Doom. Idk how this is going to go. It’s either going to be Amazing or A huuuge let down
Kris is on point. The idea it isn't desperate is crazy.
I’m sorry, I do think RDJ as doom is an interesting idea and they must have a good idea with it. But why is marvel allergic to recasting kang??? It’s the multiverse and he is the easiest character to actually recast. Im sure the Russo bros and the same writers could have really cooked there. Especially if the leaks were true about kang variants popping up in the other films and shows.
Kris is spot on
So, is John. It's just a matter of one's own opinion. Some ppl think it's desperate some think it's not. It's that simple. There's literally no right or wrong.
I think the fact that everyone keeps saying it’s desperate proves that it’s not. Getting a new actor would’ve been the easy route, and much cheaper route, and the route most of us would’ve preferred. Bringing in RDJ brings so many more challenges. I’m actually excited to see how they do this and think this could be really cool.
I can tell you’re an active thinker! Good on ya!
Stop it. RDJ is Iron Man
This is just a cash grab
Sure is.
Compared to what?
It absolutely is desperate with a capital D. There is no reason to specifically cast RDJ other than because you want the speculation and eyeballs. I completely refuse the idea that RDJ is the only actor who could play Doom. There are many wonderful unused actors in the MCU who could play the role. I have no doubt in RDJ's ability to do a great job, but its a weirdly limiting decision. Because RDJ has specifically come back only for these two Avengers movies, which means that at least his version of Doom will have no long term connection to the Fantastic Four. I find it genuinely problematic that people are more looking forward to Peter Parker facing off against Doom and dealing with someone that resembles Tony, than Reed Richards.
Obviously there is a deeper connection to stark which is why they have brought him
@@funkysam1345 Well, that is the assumption right now. But the fact that our first introduction to a Dr Doom is likely a Stark variant and not the real Dr Doom from the comics doesn't sit well with me.
@@nikunjdixit1175 hi nikunj. I understand your concern. I have a slightly long take on that. It'll take time for me to write the response. It's a slightly long one. I would love to engage in deeper conversation.
Feels John is standing alone on the hill with this one. Hopefully this move really works and we as the audience be surprise. Still worry on this move
I don’t believe they started talking about this a year ago. Probably a month before comic con at best.
Remember, RDJ is not a variant of Tony Stark as Iron Man. He is Victor Von Doom in the alternate universe of the Fantastic Four of the 60's style futuristic world.
“Do it with the lights on” 😂🤣🤣
I still think they're doing some kind of variant. I don't like the idea, but at the same time I need to keep gathering the information and theories
I hope he does incredible. I need Doom to be a menace.
Imagine Doom coming from one world into ours and meets up with Spiderman. How epic and tragic would that be.
I was introduced to kang the conqueror in a cartoon called avengers earths mightiest heroes. I, in that moment wondered how I’d never heard of him because he was awesome. I then did research on the character and really became a fan. The kang presented in the mcu had none of the characteristics that made me fall in love with him. Completely different character than the one that caught my attention in the first place.
If it’s a Tony Stark variant then they are just peeing all over Dr. Doom
If this is true than Robert Downey Jr. is no different than the Rock putting himself over the character….Dr. Doom is too awesome and has too good of a story intertwined with the Fantastic 4 to be somebody’s variant….so pathetic
This is a great short term move, HORRIBLE long term move we could’ve had great movies with doom.
But now we know we only have fun for two and none are fantastic 4 movies
This is a situation where I can only see it working 1 way, seeing as how this saga is all about the multiverse I think it’d be kinda neat to have a variant of Tony Stark be Doctor Doom, because as John said it’s kinda cool to have the man who was once earth’s greatest defender now be earth’s greatest threat, I think that’s a great idea for the presumably biggest villain of this multiverse saga, because I don’t know who the hell else they could build up to for Secret Wars, what I don’t want is an Ant Man And The Wasp: Quantimania situation where Darren came back as M.O.D.O.K and they treated it like a joke, I don’t want Doom to take off his mask, we see it’s Tony Stark and everyone’s like “Oh my god that’s so weird” and it’s treated like this funny scene, I want him to show he’s Tony and everyone gets chills and is like “Oh shit” I think what they need to do above all else is take this choice seriously, don’t treat is as a joke, make it menacing, if they do that I could see it working, but if they go the M.O.D.O.K route I think it’s gonna totally fall flat on its face
Nobody saw this coming because it is so fucking dumb and desperate. Next they will bring back Chris Evans as the God of Hydra
RDJ as Doom was reported a few moths ago by an insider. I just thought it was a rumor.
There was a storyline in the comics where Cap was apart of Hydra and it was a great run. Secret Empire.
W Kris
What is the point of bringing back as Victor Von Doom? So he's supposed to be Victor Von Doom for the next 10 years? Why couldn't they get another actor?
I’m guessing at some point he will align with the avengers and become iron man.
Because you won’t get any of the narrative possibilities we can now have with RDJ playing the role. What will Peter’s reaction be to his dead mentor now wearing the face of the world’s next big threat? How will Banner react to this? Will that break Banner and possibly bring on a chain of events that lead to the angry Hulk we know and love to come back? And what about Tony’s daughter?
There’s so much they can tap into, there’s no guarantees on how well they do this of course, but I absolutely see the in-universe value of bringing RDJ back.
They are trying to hype up Fantastic 4 , grasping at straws with this casting
@@emoney6692That's interesting 🤔
Wow, some of you guys are taking actors and imaginary characters too seriously. RDJ is an actor no matter how much you aligned him to the Iron Man role he is still an actor who can play many characters. By the way who are fictional
It’s a bold idea birthed out of complete and utter desperation.
It’s called the Multiverse Saga. What did you think was gonna happen?
It would be kind of cool if they did the Adam Warlock Infinity War/Crusade split but to Tony Stark. In the Comice when Adama uses the Gems it splits his good and evil into two parts, the Magnus and Goddess, they could do something like that head but only the evil saying the good Tony Sacrificed himself, but the evil was cast out and that is what become DOOM.
It is a Different Take on established lore. This could lead to a way for Tony to Come Back as well as Iron Man but the good side to return to help defeat Doom.
I've been checked out of the MCU for a while now. However, now I find myself excited for Fantastic Four, Captain America : BNW and definitely this! Glad to hear he's actually playing Victor Von Doom and not a Tony Stark variant. RDJ could play this villian SOLID!!!
Brining back rdj is kinda like desperate
I’m in the desperate camp. Take that in any way you please
Theres not comic precedence lol
Its literally 1 issue and it's a what if. 1 issue.
Aunt May was a Herald of Galactus for just as long.
Stop sugar coating it - both comic book fans and general audience are going to be confused af with this.
Nah... They are intelligent... Mostly...
It’s not desperate it’s people that like to work together and have good report with each other choosing to work together again.
I look at it like Christopher Nolan casts a lot of the same actors they don’t play the same type of characters in the same movie.
Now if they don’t have him be Victor and play a different role and he’s just a Tony variant I take it all back. But if you have the same people return for different roles I love that.
American Horror Story, Quentin Tarantino Films, even Chris Evan’s played human torch and then played Captain America. It can work.
This article definitely feels like either way Kang was gonna get usurped by Dr Doom given we were diving into the plot of Secret Wars
Probably avengers facing off the council only to realize there’s an ever bigger threat coming.
The 1994 ROGER CORMAN Produced FANTASTIC FOUR Movie also had a DOCTOR DOOM that was played by Actor JOSEPH CULP (Son of Late Actor ROBERT CULP) & JOSEPH CULP'S take on DOCTOR DOOM is actually pretty good despite it being very Campy & over the Top
Markus and McFeely are coming back too?? That's great to hear
Yep. People got caught uo with the Russos coming back and their lack of good projects outside the MCU but the writers of 4 of the best MCU movies are back and that means a lot.
RDJ: I don't know Kevin, I'm done with the MCU.
Kevin: Cut the bullshit, how many zeros do you want?
RDJ: I'm back baby!
Why stop here? Chris Evans coming back to play Mr Sinister. Scarlet Johansson coming back to play Jean Grey. Zoe Saldana coming back to play Storm.
Ur too emotional Robert will be good as doom it’s not desperate lmao it’s alrightttt😂😂
Chris Evans literally came back to play Johnny Storm
@@gus9663 a role from over a decade ago. It’s not the same. He wasn’t Johnny Storm for 8 movies.
Kris 100% correct. It’s desperate. But it can work but that’s not the issue my concern is the character shouldn’t be a 2 off avengers arc. The character is too valuable that it deserves multiple films like Loki. As long we get the real earth 616 Victor von doom I’m fine with this.
The more i hear about RDJ as Doom the less excited i get for these movies, Dr Doom was the character i was most looking forward to seeing what small or A-list actor could own the performance and shake the mcu, instead they pretty much confirmed to the audience that they really are uninspired and desperate.
Also, RDJ does not have the physical presence to play Doom, maybe he’ll have the acting chops but there’s a limit to platform shoes and camera tricks
This is a 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th swing for the fences move.
They went way too early in to the multiverse direction. You just opened space with Guardians, Cpt. Marvel and Eternals, you have the Quantum Realm and Time Travel, "new" worlds they havent even really explored yet. Then they introduce the Multiverse and went all in.....and lost all stakes imo.
When I saw the clip of RDJ reveal, I stared at my phone saying "noooooooo" and "why"
He is Iron Man.
I don't think Doom, I think Iron Man. This feels like a backslide.
I pray they change everything about RDJ. If we see his face or hear his voice then your just setting yourself up for failure.
Desperate or not, if it's planned thoroughly and executed well, then the movie and the films before it will be good.
Honestly I feel that they dropped the ball on this one by casting rdj as doom but hey I'm still excited for the trailer to see what's all about
This is a double edged sword, no no this is a triple edge sword, this is overwhelming, both in a good and bad way
Remember at the end of end game when we heard the metal being struck with a hammer? I wonder if they are going to incorporate that tease into the doom character.
I think Marvel and the fanbase at large overreacted to a really bad 2023. No Way Home and Deadpool & Wolverine are loved by the fanbase and both have combined to make nearly $3.5B at the box office. Multiverse of Madness made nearly $1B. GoTG Vol.3 crushed it. Shang-Chi was very well received. Wakanda Forever was also well received and did as well as it could after losing its main star in Chadwick Boseman. Even Love & Thunder, although much maligned, is the No.1 highest grossing Thor film domestically. Marvel shouldn't be getting desperate, they just need to focus on quality, controlling some of these budgets, and making the films people actually want to go see.
2023 was a direct response to 2022 and people now getting fed up with the MCU. DP/W and NWH were just crowd pleasers that in NWH case, hasn’t aged terribly well as a film which will be the same for DP/W once it leaves Theaters. MOM also falls into that to similar degree.
What Marvel needs is to start making films genuinely good films again and making characters that we care about and can connect to with genuinely good stories, not cameo-fests and bad cgi, with a thin plot that only exists to simulate those bad cgi.
If this wasn't the plan all along, it should have been. Narratively, this makes sense for the MCU. Taking the best of what Doom's character represents in the comics and fit it into the movies the world has made the most successful in history.
Doom/Iron Man are almost like two sides of the same coin anyways. Marvel comics has 60+ years of history and stories, but they also have a lot of redundant characters too. That's ok in monthly book releases, but that doesn't work so well in popular movies.
I hated that they revealed RDJ as Doom, imagine the reaction in the theaters if no one saw it coming
No chance it wouldn’t have leaked.
@@TheGameBelt646 both Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfields parts in No Way Home got leaked but was still the greatest moments in that film, it might leak but they played it off as deepfakes and Photoshop which for the majority of audiences believed and the reactions from theaters speak for themselves. Also look at the cameos in D&W, most of those were never leaked. If they've done it before Marvel can do it again.
I still think they should've kept it under wraps and made it a bigger surprise upon release!
If this wasn't wasn't a desperation move Disney, wouldn't be willing to pay sug an ungodly amount of money much to get RDJ back.
It is definitely desperate on Marvel's part. They know that they're guaranteed to get a lot of people in seats simply by bringing Robert Downey Jr. back in any capacity. Bringing him back as arguably the most dangerous and most popular Marvel villain of all time will further bring in plenty of people in those theater seats. It all depends on how good the movie actually is and how it's executed will this decision either age insanely well and be 1 of the best casting decisions in film history, or quite possibly be the worst casting decision in film history, Only time will tell.
I'll wait to see him in a trailer or his origin story before I can have a final verdict on this.
I don't know how John can seriously with a straight face saying, "desperate would be bringing Thanos back" but then in the same breath say that bringing RDJ back isn't at all the same? Like- it's REALLY not that different John yeah he's playing "a different character" (which remains to truly be seen) but it's still dipping back into the well and dragging back an actor who already had a really great send off. And like- outside that obviously there's much larger implications too, I don't know sounds bad, feels bad imo.
What pisses me off about this whole thing is that it’s not that it’s an RDJ as Doom… but it’s that this is how they’re doing doom in the MCU for the first time ever… this is now meant to be the official Dr Doom portrayal cinematically and be done correct as the new big bad of the MCU…. This kind of hype should be for a brand new exceptional actor added to the universe to be the next big bad Dr Doom… doing variant or plays on stuff before original versions just feels really off especially when it’s the dude who was cast to start the universe as iron man
They’re in the “multiverse” saga, so it completely fits in with the themes they’ve established.
And after Secret Wars they will do a soft reboot, and recast doom as a diff actor.
you literally have zero clue if its a variant of tony stark hes playing. same actor does not equal same character.
just under 21 months until it’s released.. surely everything is at an advanced point already with story etc?.. They’d have to start filming relatively soon if they’re filming back to back.. especially with how VFX and CGI heavy these movies tend to be?! Wasn’t Infinity War and Endgame filmed back to back over 6-9 months?
If you say 9 months on the high end, and they start in December.. they’re giving themselves about 8 months for any reshoots and VFX/CGI to be done..
Defeated by Antman? Or was he? Yall don’t let stuff play out. That Kang was coming back stronger as the beyonder and meant to lose as the others meant to lose , but this one they built a film around him spoke of being the conqueror, that other Kangs feared him they vanished him but Yall don’t let things play out, then legal stuff happened so no one will see.
It’s all about perception. Why should the audience be intimidated by an antagonist who lost to to a B tier marvel character in their first feature length film?
@@frankie8387 let them not be intimidated til did come back stronger. Then have it make sense. Thanos looked weak when Ronan betrayed him and he never went after him. Took 18 movies ? The point of Kangs being so many is lost on ppl. They were showing up everywhere and can’t all win. Smart fans should know this. Building to something. But it doesn’t matter legal issues won’t see it but they’d have had to accept it prior
After winning an oscar, Robert wants to challenge himself. The best way to do that is character like Doom
I'm excited that they got the greatest actor ever for Doom..... KIRK LAZARUS!!!
I personally think it is somewhat poetic that Downey will be the one who ushered in the MCU, and the one to ultimately usher it out. After Secret Wars I don’t think it’ll ever be the same hype as it was.
Thankfully we finally have confirmation that it is doom and not a tony stark variant
To say it's a cash grab is a week statement. What movie doesn't try to be a cash grab?
Once upon a time cinema was art and the art of it was supposed to sell.
"Doomsday" is almost two years away, and I'm already exhausted by this recurring conversation. I will concede it feels desperate to cast RDJ as Doom, and it has a high chance of failure. However, we don't know exactly this is going to work and the individuals behind this---Feige, the Russos, RDJ, McFeely---get the benefit of the doubt considering the excellent films they've made. I totally get the uproar, but I'm going to try to go into this with an open mind.
Remember when we thought Elon Musk was the real Tony Stark? Look at him now.
Same logic. Love it.
RDJ will okay. I just dont want them to screwup endgame.
I still think mads mikkelsen would have been awesome as Doom
You know, something can be both desperate and genius. It’s true, people haven’t taken to Kang, and there is no way they would allow Jonathan Majors to continue the role. But let’s not act like recasting wasn’t an option. Kang is a multiversal character, they could’ve easily recast him. But the fact is that audiences aren’t invested in Kang. RDJ as Doom gets butts in seats. It’s absolutely reactionary, but marvel needs an actor they can trust. A lot of their talent has proven to be unpredictable, including Majors, so they need a seasoned actor they know will stay out of trouble. I think RDJ will only be doom for these avengers films, then once they’re ready, they’ll introduce the prime Doctor doom with a new actor. This move is reactionary, but it’s a smart move for marvel as a business.
I had a feeling Downey would be back simply by how much press RDJ has been doing and how he kept his Oscar victory tour going
It’s only a bold and respectable move if it succeeds. If not, it’ll go down as Marvels worst decision ever. I hope they stick the landing.