Who is John Vervaeke and What is "The Meaning Crisis"?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
- John Vervaeke is a professor at the University of Toronto. He has a UA-cam series Awakening from the Meaning Crisis which I've been following. This is the first of hopefully more conversations on his work.
John's Channel / johnvervaeke
Awakening from the Meaning Crisis • Awakening from the Mea...
Zombies www.amazon.com...
For the audio podcast mirror on Podbean paulvanderklay....
To listen to this on ITunes itunes.apple.c...
If you need the RSS feed for your podcast player paulvanderklay...
To support this channel/podcast on Paypal: paypal.me/paul...
To support this channel/podcast with Bitcoin (BTC): 37TSN79RXewX8Js7CDMDRzvgMrFftutbPo
To support this channel/podcast with Bitcoin Cash (BCH) qr3amdmj3n2u83eqefsdft9vatnj9na0dqlzhnx80h
To support this channel/podcast with Ethereum (ETH): 0xd3F649C3403a4789466c246F32430036DADf6c62
/ paulvanderklay
Also on Lbry: beta.lbry.tv/@...
Join the Sacramento JBP Meetup www.meetup.com...
Paul's Church Content at Living Stones Channel / @livingstoneschristian...
You can donate to Living Stones CRC to support this work here www.livingstone...
Donations may be tax deductible for taxpayers of the United States
The internet crossover everyone was waiting for
yes!
Fancy seeing you on here, old bean. Sometime you must tell me the algorithm for getting such high ratings on such pedestrian comments (notwithstanding one of those likes being my own)! 😂
you prolly dont care at all but does anybody know a method to log back into an Instagram account?
I was dumb lost the account password. I would love any help you can give me.
@Stanley Alessandro Instablaster :)
As Francis Schaefer Saïd, "All truth is God's truth". There is a great deal of wisdom in JV's perspective . I am moved by the mutual respect and affection shown by these two men. All our conversations with those we have substantial differences with should be like this!
LETS GO! The meeting of the century! ;)
Obviously you find John Vervaeke hugely valuable. Why you do is still a little opaque to me after watching this. Maybe as a "regular" guy I need more definitions of terms or an accessible low resolution summary. At this point I see a quest for meaning short of being loved by an intentional Creator something like a house built on sand. The house on sand may be fortified by thoughtfully nuanced and thoroughgoing goodwill. Does the urbane goodwill which John obviously has, distract from an inadequate foundation? I'm probably missing the point.
I really enjoyed this conversationJohn Vervaeke. Of all the intellectuals in this circle I find John to be the most human, spirited, caring, inclusive, and humble of the group. He’s closer to a Holy man in that sense. It is too bad he was hurt by his Christian up bringing to where he is cut off from God. My mom is the same way. I find it heart breaking but I love her dearly and I try my best to be as good of a reflection of God as I understand him so she may yet change her mind. Ultimately it is her choice. God’s gift of free will and I respect that.
If you think you can wash away the blood from the death of God, you don't understand what the consequences necessarily are-- like the ontology of man, meaning and value. The only hope you have is being wrong. And there is good reason to believe you are, which seems like the real crisis that should be addressed.
The series Vervaeke has done is of truly epic proportions - he should be a senior professor.
Something is missing for me in his
content. It is too dry, too matter of fact. I guess it needs the beauty of the Christian language.
Yes, he should be promoted to senior position based on his scholarship. Unfortunately, in order to get promotion in the university, his kind of work do not count as much. The system is open to corruption. I mean no clear open and transparent process. It depends on a set of complex knowledge, behaviours and skills. Those who like JV, care so deeply about truth and wisdom, most likely will not engage with the ‘game’ that people play. We just have to award him with our love of wisdom and the knowledge he imparts.
I agree.
Secular monastery-sounds as depressing as where two or three are gathered together not in my Name. Without Jesus Christ, ultimately meaningless.
The image of Christ has been dismembered. What is so interesting (to me) about this idea is that He may be remembered through a new set of psychotechnoligal models remade for the modern mind.
@@SkyJensen No amount of misrepresentation of Christ can stand in the way of Him being found by the sincere seeker after Him. Seek and you will find. The modern mind, for all it has been oppressed by wrong thinking and anti-Christian propaganda may still be enlightened by the words of Jesus Christ and His apostles and evangelists in the Bible, That is the technology that works. We need to know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent.
@@anselman3156 I think you are right that the past must be understood before taking any successful steps forward.
@@SkyJensen I find that true meditation and mindfulness are prayerfully thinking on the words of the Lord Jesus and stillness and contemplation of His goodness and presence with us in His creation. He opens our eyes to see the beauty and meaning of eternal things which shines through the present state of nature with the promise of assured glory. The future is all things united in Christ.
@@anselman3156 I couldn't agree more, bless you!
I say this very respectfully, I just wish for everyone the Truth of Jesus Christ. As Paul said, For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
Are you going to talk with Mathieu Pageau sometime? The talks hes had with JP and JBP are very interesting..
I should read his book for so I would have an understanding.
@@PaulVanderKlay It's a quick but compelling read.
What is the eschatology of the secular psychological technology? The soteriology?
Exactly. Right at the end, as he alluded to the "threatening" nature of this alternative worldview, I couldn't help but think, "To anyone truly committed to a Christian eschatology, it's not threatening so much as laughable." It's the same old hat of folks like Sam Harris trying to conjure meaning out of an existentially meaningless morass. A rose by any other name might smell as sweet, but the negative of that is also true. A turd by any other name... None of this to detract from Vervaeke's undeniable intelligence and graciousness--I genuinely appreciated this conversation and his insights into the meaning crisis. Thanks as always, Paul.
The early monastic Christian Fathers have a complete Biblical anthropology of man and a complete psychotherapeutic system leading from REPENTANCE through ascesis of the mind and body, leading to Theosis...literally man becoming sanctified and regaining the Likeness to God (in addition to the image) in Christ and in LOVE! I was a PhD cognitive behavioral clinical psychologist and when I finally found Eastern Orthodoxy (after years as a Hindu, Protestant Christian and a Roman Catholic) I knew had I found the synthesis of Wisdom and Knowledge through Prayer. But the greatest thing is finding the LOVE OF GOD in the Eucharist. The medicine of immortality.
I keep reading Vervaeke is statements. One thing I know he is is a great teacher and very gracious with his time. I truly appreciate him putting himself out here like this and find it quite courageous regardless if I agree with him. Thank you both for the great dialogue.
I love John's idea of an ecology of practices. This could be very fruitful indeed.
i agree. the idea is interesting but it seems to me to be a akin to something like a 'brain hack', when in fact what i think were looking for is a 'soul hack' i guess one could argue the idea of God is a brain hack like all the rest. aye aye aye !
Yes - I get what you mean.
John, Paul, where's George and Ringo?
The basic reason people today come to Christ is surely the same as it was for St Augustine. In his autobiography Confessions he says, "Thou hast created us for thyself, and our heart cannot be quieted until it rests in thee". That is universal. Whatever the route taken by individuals, it is always prompted by the need for Him Who is our only rest, the source of all meaning. Christ found-crisis over.
Well said my man!
Here's where I have difficulty with this. I agree with you that this is true, but why can't it also be true in a pantheistic sense? Where God, Thou, Thyself, Thee, the universal, are all synonyms for the universe itself.
@@dsuleyma That is just an attempt to avoid the reality of the Person of our Creator, Who has revealed Himself to us and invites us into fellowship with Him. It is an attempt to make the creature sovereign instead of gratefully acknowledging the reality of our creatureliness and dependence on the uncreated Person Who loves and provides for us.
@@morriscat3 Well observed. How characteristic of God to work in that way.
anselman I appreciate your response but I don’t really understand the language you’re using. To me it seems like you’re asserting personhood to the universe without any necessity for doing so.
You’re making an assertion but it’s not an argument for why personifying the universe (a universe which I believe does all the same things you describe) makes sense.
I mean I get the Petersonian response to this, i think, which is something like you need to have that idea embodied in a person for it to resonate with you. That to me is an argument for making the assertion, but, I’m not sure that’s the argument you would make.
Liked within the first 5 seconds because this is one I've been waiting to hear forever - and hopefully it's not the last! Actually, since I havent seen it yet, maybe I should wait to see if its good... but, heck, given the cast, this episode is guaranteed gold!
I think religious fundamentalism has lead more people away from Christ than to him. Many UA-cam Atheists also seem to come from a fundamentalist background, and apparently John had a similar experience. It's a sad pattern I've discovered.
When I first listened to John, I just had a hunch that he had rejected some kind of strict Christian background. I too have observed that in others. It is so sad if there has been a distortion of the faith which has put people off. However, it is also possible that persons do encounter the truth of the Faith and do not like it. People can find it too demanding and fail to see the beauty of it, and the peace and joy to be found in it if they are prepared to give up their wayward inclinations.
It's entirely possible that the pattern is simply highlighted by the contrast of states and not actually indicative of it being significantly more of a trigger of falling away from the faith than non-fundamentalism.
@@anselman3156 anselman I don't see a way to reject it once you have discovered the truth. If someone would reject it because it's too demanding, he hasn't found it to be true yet. I am convinced that once you have fully recognized the significance of Jesus Christ, there is no way around it. It is either true or it is not. I fully accept the truth of it (with the occasional doubts) but I still constantly fail in my faith. I often don't act as if God exists (to speak in Petersonian terms), but the struggle to keep Jesus Christ at the center and to know that my failings will be forgiven is what the Faith is about.
But those are the deeper meanings you don't find in fundamentalism, it is often “Follow these rules or go to hell!“ And the saddest part is that I think the fundamentalists are committing the one unforgivable sin, the sin against the holy spirit.
@@GRIFFIN1238 I'm sorry, I don't fully understand what you mean by that. Could you clarify? Do you mean it might be easier to recognize the pattern (or a pattern at all) in people who fell out of a fundamentalist faith?
@@F0itz I do think that there are some people who , encountering the true Christian faith, do not like it and so deny it to be true, preferring the supposed freedom to do live according to their unstable desires. There are those who hate the light because their deeds are evil. They make a choice of selfishness and sin, and that drives them to dismiss the Christian faith, deceiving themselves and others, suppressing the acknowledgement of the truth. In my own life, I believed since infancy, but, influenced by the rival religions and philosophies, had a momentary crisis wondering if Christianity could be relativized to fit with these. This was resolved by the Lord Jesus coming to me in such a powerful way that I could never thereafter doubt that He is the Lord of all and the true God and Saviour, Who is right to make exclusive demands for our loyalty. He filled me with such love, joy and peace-what St Peter called "Joy unspeakable and full of glory" that I could never doubt Him and His love for us. As for "fundamentalists", as I have remarked elsewhere in Paul's comments sections, that is a word which can be given different meanings as it is used in a derogatory sense, and also by those who describe themselves as such as they present their own distortion of the Gospel. One must be careful not to readily accuse people of the sin against the Holy Spirit. The Lord defined that as calling the good works of the Holy Spirit evil. That was the sin of those who hated the good the Lord was doing and chose to slander it. A Christian is one who holds firmly to the true doctrines of the Faith, the Scriptural doctrine of the Creeds etc. They might be called "fundamentalist" because of that loyalty to the truth. I am "fundamentalist" in that sense, but certainly not the kind of "fundamentalist" who attacks aspects of the (Anglo-) Catholic Faith which I hold, or who preaches that God has no love for some people. What's in a name? Clear definitions are essential.
I do not expect an answer, but what I would like to ask John: What about the historicity of the resurrection of Jesus Christ? To me that is the one 'fact' everything hinges upon, and with it all other meaning making projects stand and fall.
I agree. All of this seems to be mind- and social-hacking to attempt to generate the effects of trancendental objective meaning without there actually being any.
The work of the 18th century skeptics has done its work in rendering the bible's witness dismissable. I wonder how long it will take for current scholarship's more positive take to make an impact.
How about first tell me what death is. Then, maybe I can tell you the likelihood Jesus rose from the dead.
@@andrewstallard6927 The question of death is answered with the resurrection. Without the resurrection death is as meaningless as life.
Andrew Stallard So if I give a dictionary definition, you will use it to prove resurrection is impossible? That is a strange use of premodern respect for texts to prove a modern assumption, although I’ve seen atheists use the same approach to explain that atheism doesn’t function as a religion. Goofy.
F0itz But how can we know if Jesus really resurrected? I agree that everything hinges upon this, but there’s no way to be sure if it is a historical fact or not...
This was the clearest I've ever heard from Vervaeke and I watch all of his videos. Things just started to connect. Good job on bringing that out Paul! It's also helping that I am reading Charles Taylor's "A Secular Age".
Have you finished the book yet? :D
So grateful you both shared this conversation. (Just a supportive comment from another Christian in the Reformed tradition paying attention to Vervaeke's work and related developments.)
Discussed here; www.reddit.com/r/Maps_of_Meaning/comments/cewf73/john_vervaeke_interviewed_by_paul_vanderklay?sort=confidence
I don't watch all of the 1-on-1 discussions but this one won't be skipped. Thanks to PV and JV for doing what you do.
John, If the Bible is wrong then, you have provided a great service to humanity but if it is the Living Word of God then, you have created a disservice with consequences.
Sam Harris wrestles with the ghost of David Hume and gets his ass kicked.
IT'S HAPPENING!
Wonderful talk. I love the way this guy thinks and the conversation you’re having. I wish I had a professor like him.
But I can’t help but be struck how his description of the
flaws and or defects with autodidactic belief systems also is an excellent
description of how universities have driven themselves so far to “the left”
that many of the ideas coming out of the universities look like complete and
utter non-sense to someone from outside that bubble. Inside the autodidactically (is that even a
word?) constructed bubble everyone else is a heretic, and those that dare
disagree are dangerous.
I also wonder if his proclamation that he deeply disagrees
with Peterson on political issues was at least in-part motivated by fear of
being seen as not falling in line with the politically correct speech and
thought that is demanded of anyone associated with a modern Western university.
When he’s talking about these new religious communities being developed via “wiki”, I can’t help but think that’s what Christian theology has been through history.
And the church!
Regarding Wiki Creeds, that's Orthodoxy, particularly the view on council's being legitimate based on the acceptance or rejection by the people (in contrast to the Catholics classic "the pope decides")
Paul and John thanks for the excellent demonstration of how people from two very different backgrounds, with sufficient conflicting views in some aspects, can have a real discussion. This is precisely what we need in this time of propaganda and polarization. For in the end we all, as humans have the same issues. And while there certainly are reasons for those differences, there are many more for agreement. I look forward to more explorations in meaning.
To answer your question briefly about Orthodoxy in America, it is VERY American, particularly right now. It is struggling to find it's identity amongst plural ethnic identities in a country founded on secularism.
Also, it changes all the time. But it's principles don't.
As someone who comes from an Orthodox society, I think that's very good for the global Orthodoxy. I think our old cultures have a lot to learn from American Orthodox culture, since we are quite saturated with national identity and millennium old conflicts, not to mention that most Orthodox societies were deeply wounded by communists and western ideas in the absence of organized religion. We could certainly use more people who are high in openness.
@farenheit041 Well that's just it. The problems faced by the ROC where separation of church and state was whittled and abolished by an empire (similar to Rome and Byzantium) is VERY different than the challenges of a purely secular society.
Yet, the solution remains the same since the first century. People must acquire the Holy Spirit and become saints. And the Church contains the fullness to nurture that best. We refer to it as catholicity, perhaps the Vervake translation is the full set of Psychotechnologies.
Rev Vanderklay: I hope you get to dialogue more with Dr. Vervaeke. You both seem to be setting the foundation for a robust discussion. To the degree that it is not a show, or a competitive cage match I think it will be a fruitful exchange. For a real synthesis to occur ( if that is even possible) the obvious differences and boundaries that separate your different worldviews, projects, recommendations should be stated and looked at -- hard. You may have to turn the comment section off :):) 2 bits, 4 bits, 6 bits a dollar, all for Paul stand up and holler!!! Yeeaahhh !
And the winner of the talk will get a fresh DVD of the Broadway musical . . . . . . . HAIR !
I've been waiting on this for months. Now I just need to pop some corn.
This is how you have respectful and enriching conversations with someone who has divergent viewpoints from you. Thanks Paul & John for modeling such a positive example!
I'm following John's course and I feel twice as intelligent as I used to (from a low base...) His teaching style really highlights, by contrast, JP's didacticism. I'd really like to hear what they say to each other about panpsychism, a conversation John mentions here. Hopefully JP won't lever the superiority of capitalist economics into a feature of the Universal Mind. (But he probably will).
No way!!
Way!!!
I loved this! I'm working on a response now because there was just too much good stuff.
What I have come to appreciate from both Vervaeke and Vanderklay is that they first and foremost maintain their primary grounding positions and then allow themselves to play with the mystery that each brings to the dialogue which somehow speaks to both their inner consents. My own journey in the meaning crises started 30 years ago from being a casual religious guy believing and fearing in an objective God to becoming a staunch atheists using objectivity and rationality to reject an objective God to now somewhere in the between a space which leaves me free floating but with sense of craving for more, more, always more a hunger for eternity ,and thirst for infinity, an appetite for God - which is never satisfied. My consciousness seeks to be itself and to be all other conciousnessess without ceasing to be itself:it seeks to be God. My spirit says "I wish to be! And my body answers: "I wish not to be!"
Thank you Dr John Vervaeke for your work and efforts. I appreciate your passion for helping people sort through finding meaning for their own lives where they are at. I believe this is exactly what Jesus did, using parables.
I especially like your points on relevances and placing values on our choices, applicable to everything but much neglected.
Hopefully Paul won’t troll me this time 🙃
I am a simple man. I see a John Vervaeke video and I click.
Thanks Paul 👍
o man, was looking forward to this for awhile! was great to hear vervaeke's history, gives some context for his project and conclusions. i do find his fear of autodidactism a bit curious, perhaps i'm not quite sure of how he means it. it seems to me that it'd b a bit silly to assume that anyone is a real autodidact, which places the question more on 'what sources are people choosing to learn from' rather than 'why is everyone creating their own knowledge', which to me is a vastly more manageable question. that said, there is certainly a problem in the dynamic between 'accessibility' and 'quality' of information. course, i went to a highschool that specifically taught the skills of autodidactical learning (good ol charter schools lol), which should perhaps be more of the focus rather than 'everyone should just go back into the institutions as all trusted sources of info'. i certainly get his points about the shallowness of understanding and terrible info being vetted thru confused social systems that can come with such a frame, just found his focus on the nature of the problem bizarre and not terrifically useful for making proper use of a tool like the internet (his own project seems to be against the nature of his critique, for instance lol). perhaps i did not understand what he was getting at properly.
anyways, loved the convo and really hope you guys do more in the future (hopefully soon!). would really enjoy digging in to some of the 'problem areas' (i'm quite curious what vervaeke's telos is and how it follows from his philosophy, and wonder how his 'ecology of practices' can function without defaulting towards another-among-many variations on the 'newage' - how do his boundaries around this ecology work and differentiate it sufficiently to keep from forming 'mud', and many other subjects of course lol) between you two, and am def looking forward to vervaeke's talks with pageau. big thanks to vervaeke and paul for the conversation!
The evangelist and the Buddha
I wish I’d seen this before I started his 50 part series. At 14:20 here, he begins a great overview of the symptoms (definition, kinda) of the "meaning crisis." When he talks about historical forces that undermine our ability to deal with our genetic predisposition toward existential issues, it makes tradition sound like the population-level memory which has recorded what to do during existential challenges. So, in the Jewish tradition, what do you do when a family member dies? You sit shiva, among other activities.
About the loss of culture/traditions upon immigrating or upon disconnecting from religion and the hope of replacing these with meta-psycho-technologies; I’m not sure religion works without "magic", but I suppose it’s an empirical question.
Bookshelves on right has a lobster, therefore best bookshelves. Kidding aside, great conversation!
The critters on my bookshelves are minutely smaller, but they have their own hierarchy.
Yes I would love to hear about Martin Luther. That class you gave on it John was eye opening. I am just amazed of how much information you have on each of these people. What kind of research do you do? How many hours? Fantastic talk can't wait to hear more!
10:00 "People are effective because it is their story", yes, right. Foucault would not be possible without being Foucault. Judith Butler would not be possible without being Judith Butler. And just so Jordan Peterson would not...
39:00 (or a bit later) Meditation is an old-age Christian practice, only that's called to "pray ceassessly" (1 Thess. 5:17). It's a good practice. In fact, it improves your life by the margin as you tend to sin less, and become increasingly aware of the collateral damage that sin can produce (2 Sam 11 & 12). Once you realize this, the Commandments trascend the boundaries of Law, and become the scale by which you see yourself die and resurrect every day. A quite meaningful Christian practice indeed.
Suicide and Meaninglessness What very little I know about suicide is that there are often very clear, determinate meanings delivered: Your not worth a damn. Your opinion don't mean nothin. Your going to hell, anyway. I got mine, now you go and get yours. When I want your opinion I'll give it to you. I might be wrong , but I think the meanness, especially for younger folks, has intensified. Now, if this meanness is the result of some kind of accumulated cultural narcissism I'm not sure one can lay that solely at the feet of bad theology, or religious institutions in general.
Of course, there is the suicide that is for all appearances successful, sociable, caring, intelligent. How can one ever know if that person has become existentially despondent because of a lack of meaning, or an excess of strange and bad ( evil) meanings?
Here is the problem. I often think of suicide. It is not for lack of meaning I do this. It is because I have failed to achieve anything I deem meaningful.
I wish I could be a nihilist and reject all meaning, for then I could be content to be a loser and failure. Victory and success depend on standards. If I could just chuck those standards to the wayside and become a nihilist I would be much happier. I wish the Existentialists were right and I could just make up whatever meaning or lack thereof I wanted based on my feelings.
@@andrewstallard6927 Well, Mr. Stallard, an interesting response indeed. If what you relate in your comment is true all I can really respond here is get a real live human being to help. The internet and youtube is mostly a place for jibber jabber. But who knows, with God anything can happen. Perhaps, within the lines of your own comment holds one key to moving positively on your "problem". Only you know the specifics of the standards you feel are too high, and the meanings you are dealing with.
It reads like you identify with at least some "meaningful" things: being a loser and failure. Whatever standards your referring to in regard to victory and success , you say, are beyond you, now. Well, OK. You wish you could be a nihilist -- well OK, be one, and be a good one. I was at the crossroads years ago, and I had to let Ms. Nihilism have her way with me. Maybe in order to "chuck those standards to the wayside" you will have to embrace the nihilism first. Maybe the things you "deem meaningful" are second - hand shoes handed down from mama or daddy. My own dad gave me a couple of implied career goals in order to fulfill his own frustrated failures. Happens all the time. If your going full hog with the nihilism and question all your own assumptions about what is real and true don't forget to be thorough and question everyone else too. That's why I say find a friend to supervise. This is a dangerous place to be.
As far as feelings go: If you ever felt good or "at home" somewhere; happy to be alive, or happy to be with whomever, hang on to that. I was blessed to have someone in my life who convinced me that life was good and that I was a worthwhile person with potential, even though I hadn't shown any evidence. He made me believe I could have fun again. That's what I pray for U, Mister.
I don't know if any of this has been useful to you , but I'll leave you with a quote from Ecclesiastes:
7.16 - 7.18 "So don't overdo goodness and don't act the wise man to excess, or you may be dumbfounded. Don't overdo wickedness and don't be a fool, or you may die before your time. It is best that you grasp the one without letting go of the other, for one who fears God will do his duty by both." God is good, and He is beyond our own puny conceptions of what is correct, good and proper in our respective States. God bless Texas.
Yes, finally! 😄
It's hilarious that he has finger puppets of Yung and Plato. Finger puppet fights is how I envision many of the arguments and discussions around BoM.
I find this conversation very intellectually stimulating but..... Its seems like I run into the same problem understanding people like this guest. I do not pretend to be anywhere near as smart as these two. I cede them the right to have any conversation they want. That being said as a fundamental Christian I don't know if it's worth the time. I really like Jordan Peterson as well but I find the same problem. I would state it like this, they all seem to be saying that religion is great but its not really true. So let's figure out a way to have all the benefits of true religion without believing in God or the truth of the bible. I wonder what value does mythology have to people that don't actually believe any part of the myth is true. I'm genuinely asking because I feel like I'm missing something. These people seem so smart but they fundamentally see God and Christianity so differently from me. I say these people and I know that's very general but in some ways it illustrates my point. All these intellectuals on the web and UA-cam. They seem to be whistling the same tune. Didn't Nietzsche state this whole meaning problem Yeatrs ago. I don't understand how they know truth, morality, meaning without believingin A creator God. I understand it takes another step to actually believe in the Christian God and not jus Deiism but I'm baffled. I truly want to understand if there is something to any of this. It seems pointless. If I didn't believe in Christianity I'm sure I'd be a nihilist. Albert camus made a lot of sense to me although I didn't see how he came to the conclusion he did. No one will probably read this or comment but I think of this often. I'm conflicted over the time I spend watching these podcasts but I can't study the bible 24 hours a day. If you do comment please know that I have much respect for these men and would like to learn if there something more too understand.
A lot of questions I had about Vervaeke could have been answered long ago if I just watched this video. (Doink!)
So is the new approach of the non-religious to religion, similar to the American approach to the Queen of England?
She's great and all, now that we don't have to pay taxes to her?
oh I had no idea this existed. The best thing about youtube is all my favourite people keep talking to each other.
"You're my pastor and your channel is my church"
That can never be, or
That can never be enough?
When they keep talking about Johnathan, who are they talking about?
Grateful to be part of this culture that is I believe is helping many of us & a part of a like minded movement live a lil better, perhaps.
Finally! Great conversation. I appreciate both of you.
It's good to see the two sides conversing. I think they need each other.
What a fun and insightful conversation
oh boy... its finally here
Who was mentioned that makes videos about mindful parkour into an ecology of practices?
ua-cam.com/users/RafeKelley
Wow what a delight
22:28 "Circling" reminds me of "Collatio" [community meditation & sharing] of Scripture by the early desert fathers. . .
The vital ingredient being Holy Scripture.
@@anselman3156 ✅ Agreed !
4:34 hunger for wisdom intensifies
:)
Excellent discussion as usual. Bravo to you both! Allow me to humbly submit my article to your future wiki. Thank you both for your tremendous work!
medium.com/discourse/psychotechnology-and-the-multi-state-future-of-humanity-37a31a506022
Really awesome stuff
John Vervaeke is the second-most famous professor of psychology at University of Toronto.
That's actually doing really well, when you think about it.
55:58 . . .and for the Orthodox: a sure "compass". . . referring to the church fathers, their biblical interpretation, their theology. . .
"What happens when we have more people in the church for a meetup, than for a worship service"
How do you think the Early Church operated? Even in Augustine's time, there were crowds that came to listen and discuss, that were not yet catechumens.
You used to have three parts to the service, for three categories of people:
1. People who come to hear the Bible readings (and then leave)
2. People who stay for the sermon (and then leave)
3. People who stay for communion.
I've heard that part of the Orthodox liturgy involves showing people the door, who aren't communicant members of the congregation.
So, we shouldn't be mystified by any of this.
Is there a transcription of this conversation somewhere?
Only the one created by the UA-cam. There are ways of downloading it. Nothing done by any human being.
1:33:14 For Newman, the ongoing task is to distinguish between "development" of doctrine and "corruption". . .
Does the Nigerian Anglican congregation that meets in your church building have connections to GAFCON?
I don't know
UA-cam is a place for people with time to spare. But it feels like it is a good kind of time use.
UA-cam makes ideas travel better and faster than before.
You guys are the pioneers- thank you. But Joe Rogan will always be the first of the first of this thing.
And I learned a new word today- "deep web" ! I am a deep webber! Fantastic 👍😊
I think this is required viewing before I listen to him take over the Q&A this Friday. People have opinions and assumptions about John that go beyond his ideas. Time to hear from the man himself.
1:27:17 I think the church is always the process of "dying". . . then "resurrecting". . .
19:43 For an early (1991 ! ) "prophetic" movie about this, see: Until the End of the World / Wim Wenders. . .
I'm beyond thrilled to know you will both be continuing your cutting edge discussions on wisdom, spirituality, psychology, theology, cognitive science, Christianity, and the whole meaning crisis. I'm an avid reader and you both mention books, philosophers, and metaphysical schools of thought which mean so much to me. You are also touching on things which I struggle with understanding about my own proclivities and belief systems.
I haven't listened to Vervaeke yet, but with as much as you've referred to him and his shared interest in meaning, I'm really looking forward to listening to this convo!!!
41:48 On this, see esp: Religion & Culture / Christopher Dawson. . .
Thank you both for this very interesting and thought-provoking conversation. I'll be straight to the meaning crisis series next.
When did Jonathan say that Christianity would resurrect?
I heard him say that “the death of Christianity (might be) part of its story”, and make reference to Jesus’ question, “When I return, will there be any faith on the Earth?”. But in both cases, I take the death part to be in “this age”, and an open question whether the resurrection can happen in “this age”.
1.23.30 I prefer to read, but I listen if I am too tired or on the go, which is often. I expect it is the same with most folks.
30:55 or so: pluralism leads to loss of belief in the specific. ‘I have no need of that hypothesis’, the reduction of multiple layers of explanation to the mechanical.
Holy moses!! June and July have gotten too busy when it takes me two days to get to a discussion I've been waiting on for months! Thanks for doing it fellas.
I get back from vacation to find this video... the perfect welcome home!
Two of my absolute favorite members of the Intellectual Web. Had to take time away from Paul to catch up with John... :)
So excited about this interview! I will have questions I know after I listening to it.
Yay!
1:08:08 . . .words that fudge: "transformation" !
A religion that isn't a religion, looks an awful lot like politics.
Supernatural is a new word?? Mindblowing
I've never clicked on anything faster.
1:11:48 Yes ! - "aggressive" and "assertive" are very different. . .
58:17 See: A Grammar of Assent / John Henry Newman. . .
Watching again today! One of my faves❤️
47:30 . . ."consumerist" religious commitment ??
So glad to see two men be this honest and forthright about their lives.
Whoa! Finally, the long-awaited Vervaeke talk!
1:35:16 More conversations ! 😀 Great !