How The Paper Mario Remake Changes Vivan’s Gender Depiction
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2024
- This video takes a look at a how Vivian's gender is depicted in the Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door remake for Nintendo Switch.
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Okay but real talk. Shadow Sirens was a much better name.
Shadow Sisters signifies something important to Vivian, though. That's why she did what she did
It was invented for the english localization though - the japanese original just calls them Shadow Trio
agreed
so much better
It's in the dutch version..
Upon hearing that TTYD was gonna be released on the switch, two thoughts immediately came to my mind.
1: Does this mean we might be able to get a return to form for Paper Mario and go back to traditional RPGs?
2: Oh god the Vivian question is gonna be a headache.
I had predicted this months ago that if Nintendo or NOA messed up the scene with Vivian, regardless of which direction, there would be a flame war and the two parties would be in a Morton's fork. I also said that I will call out the hypocrisy on both sides if they restore Vivian to what the Shadow Siren was in the original.
What I didn't expect was a few changes in the script that few care (namely the catcalling towards Goombella) because they don't care about censorship.
@@1685Violin there has been conversation about that but since current climate is more obssessed with trans Vivian overpowered it
1) Yes
2) Yes
@@1685Violinjust wait til when Nintendo announce fire emblem 4 remake and they’re will be a flame war online
@@therealjaystone2344 Trans Sigurd, let's go!
love how you did your research, well explained and neutral look at the new translation
What about the other censored content, like the chalk outline of a Toad with dried blood on the floor in the Japanese version or wine being changed to Chuckola Cola?
Those 2 have been documented for quite some time and are nothing new
That's embarrassing. A list should be made. I just knew the catcalling and apparently this vid showed they avoided Vivian lol. I'm good with Birdo 😂 so simple and no affirmations needed.
@@MrVariant These things mentioned by the original comment, had already been censored for 2 decades (via the international GC version), so what’s your point Aesop?
Some things on the rating and the censorship regard are very... Weird.
I mean, the rated E Game has a noose (now with sound effects!), Peach getting naked, a cloud with b**bs, depresion, mafias, and more?
The censorship and age rating situation must had been over the place for sure. Even The Origami King and Princess Peach Game has a higher rating Between all things.
Im not mad or dissapointed, just confused.
@AWMonopolyMan why are you such an elitist? Compilations help, but hey my fault to not catch-up? Who needs your attitude? Impossible to always think of a Version differences fandom lookup every time. By your own self-defeating logic, nobody should be doing research videos on old games, because it's "public knowledge for decades." And that's impossible for popular stuff since someone already documented it, just like playthroughs, boss fights or overpowered strategies.
Vivian has some striking parallels to Birdo as well. This would mean this wouldn't be the first time a situation like this has happened in a Mario game.
Maybe next time they'll actually keep the name as Birdetta
I think they should have kept some of the original Japanese text. As a way to show how badly viv was treated.
No, because you smoothbrains would whine about it on Twitter.
@@Yayofangamer16 but its more true to the original and irl stuff that happens with trans people. Sure they get bullied for this at times, but having a line showing that "at least they can be honest about themselves but still accepting" would have been a more "equal ground" and more hoenst localiozation I'd say.
@@Evilriku13it's just a damn game,get over it.
@@Yayofangamer16That's you. You're the one projecting and whining about it *right now.*
@@NetBattlerwhat's there to get over?
The story in the english GCN version feels more in line with the story of Cinderella where the Ugly stepsisters were abusive of her just like how the Shadow Sirens were doing that to Vivian.
It was basically that in the original Japanese as well, just with the added thing of Vivian being trans.
@@antonioscendrategattico2302Dude, there's a difference between being trans (current version) and basically being a femboy (past Japanese version).
@@Dracoward Vivian referred to herself as a woman in the past Japanese version as well, and Beldam bullied her by saying she's a man.
If you look at the game dialogue, it's clear as day. The only ones referring to Vivian as a boy are Beldam and Goombella (and the encyclopedia) but she always refers to herself as a woman.
@@antonioscendrategattico2302 Vivian was never trans. That wasn't even a thing that people believed in back then. Vivian was openly acknowledged to be a boy in the Japanese version but was described as being effeminate. Basically, he was a girly boy, but Western culture has to fit everything into the same stupid box because we're apparently morons.
@@BorvocBRO REALLY SAID THERE WAS NO TRANS PEOPLE IN THE EARLY 00'S LMFAO
I think you should have waited a bit on making this video, since it's not a *comprehensive* comparison. For example, it would be interesting to see the differences between the Goom Goom sidequest which also is a moment in the original GCN Japanese where Vivian is explicitly called a man, and if the epilogue still has the meta question mark (?) joke at the very end of "sisters" in Goombella's dialogue. These two examples missing for comparison sake makes the video still good but a bit incomplete. The original game had *5* moments in which Vivian's gender is touched upon, but this video only delves into *3* of the original GCN mentions changes
I can’t believe they took out Mario saying the F word
?
it's ok he can reclaim it
he can say it trust me bro
… Firdo. 😏
The way I see about the whole whether Vivian is trans, a guy crossdressing, or is a cis girl, I think of it more simply as this: Vivian is essentially a malleable ghost who is the youngest of the Shadow Sirens. Who knows what she was like growing up? Maybe she once had a more masculine or male form until it shifted into something more feminine. Or maybe she really was a guy before morphing into a girl (even putting aside localization differences, the Japanese version gives her a feminine voice in her dialogue). In other words, it could be any or even all of the above.
Trans or not, I see her as a girl who is discovering her identity, is mistreated by her family, and goes off to join those who accept her the way she is.
You can see it however you want, and that's fine, but I'll stick with the original intentions by the developers in the original release.
@MrRAGE-md5rj Feel free to do so. You can go with whatever interpretation, localization, etc. I'm not forcing my viewpoint.
I just liked to imagine an all of the above interpretation (I mean, logically, it's peculiar that hypothetical ghosts that never had physical bodies would have genders to begin with. It might sound like I'm thinking too hard, but I'm just thinking of an answer I find simple and fun).
Probably one of the best takes I've seen, taking into account more than just text but context and themes. Good stuff.
why not say "normal person" instead of cis?
@Vextipher Thank you kindly. Indeed, I strive to take into account those three things whilst giving a fun and simple thought (or headcanon. Whatever you want to call it).
The Os in otokonoko are all pronounced with a hard "Oh" sound. Unlike English, Japanese vowels have consistenct pronunciation. Just trying to be helpful and not critical.
I always enjoy your content, and I appreciate you putting this video out.
Also Japanese doesn't stress syllables at all unlike most other languages, and you can hear the stressed vowels.
When slowly picking up Japanese words, the usage of "otokonoko" confused me so much between the slang and actual meaning because of art that I just come across from Japanese artists, because I only noticed the Romanized versions of the tags. I should've realized sooner the way they were being written.
Otoknoko is a fun word to say when you think about it long enough....
Japan loves their word puns
People like say Short Fat Otaku, Dimitri Monroe and others always use the slang version for characters that explicitly identify as female for some reason
@@AWMonopolyMan Pretty sure they just want to say trap, but want that weeb street cred
@@denkerbosu3551 Funnily enough, they end up still being wrong as the characters they identify as “femboys” or “Otokonoko’s” gender identify as females or don’t have a gender identity they normally go with.
thanks for covering this. there's extensive censorship in the remake of a lot of jokes and other stuff that's apparently problematic now. you could make a lot more videos on this game if ya wanted
I didn't even think it was possible to censor a Mario Game.
I don't have time to watch the whole video atm, but what bugs me the most is that in JPN, Vivian is simply a male crossdresser. But in the ENG remake, they make the character transsexual.
Nothing wrong with either, but my problem is that the ENG remake translation (from what I read) seems to think ALL crossdressers are trans. Not all crossdressers are transexuals.
A distinction without a difference.
Yet another time English localizers try to impose Western thinking on Japanese characters or stories, while still bragging about their opposition to cultural appropriation and colonialism.
@@gearfriedtheswmas the difference is autogynephilia vs gender dysphoria
She explicitly identifies as a woman. Crossdressing men still identify as men, and they don't wear women's clothing all the time. Otherwise that's not crossdressing, that's just dressing.
@@-TriP- Who put the diagnostic on the cartoon?
When I played this game as a kid I remember thinking Vivian was the hottest character
How a chaser is born fr
@@Morgformer Finding trans people attractive does not automatically make someone a chaser
@@ninsthegoblin I didn't say that it did
@@Morgformer Implications are extremely vital when writing comments. to prevent being misunderstood, maybe specify that next time it could be taken that way. Just because you "didn't say that it did" doesn't mean you could not have implied such.
@@kwingle I was as specific as I needed to be, you have to heavily misconstrue what I said to get to what goblin said.
My video on this subject got really freaking heated and all I did was present both interperitations of the character and explaining 2004 English release.
Probably best just to avoid it all together. Both sides are nuts and don't actually care about the game itself.
@@mage2105 Truer words have never been spoken.
@@mage2105 I have seen some people cancelling or not buying the game because of "woke", I think that's pretty sad.
@tomtucker9720 very dumb, I agree. It doesn't help that the defenders usually just respond with "BELDAM SPEECH BUBBLE." It definitely makes them look really intelligent to just spam that. You can tell from both sides that the people talking about this really don't care about the game itself. It's vastly improved over the original in almost every aspect, but let's focus on whether Vivian is Trans or not. Even though it only affects two cutscenes and a couple of lines of text.
@@mage2105
I agree, and I assume most of them are to much online barely know how the real world works, and just come here to argue for argue sake.
And no matter what you say you will either get labeled a phobe or your woke.
I love how you go on and on about all those different words for "boy" that Vivian has imposed on her by text that did not come from her mouth. When that's irrelevant since she clearly identifies as female in ALL versions.
There aren't multiple Vivians, there is no cisgender Vivian, Vivian is a trans girl in all versions and some of them were just censored to hide (not contradict) that detail.
I'm going to have to find this tweet but there was a tweet from one of the localizers at the Nintendo Treehouse that said they pushed for this localization change. It's funny back when the first game got released it was censored/changed in one direction and now the remake it gets censored/change in the other direction. Sucks people can't just do their job and translate properly and not push in either direction.
The funny thing is when censorship in only one direction is considered censorship.
@@andrewfantome4020 So you don't think it was censorship to erase the fact she's trans from the original game?
@@theletterm1787 HE was trans
@@theletterm1787 It is impossible to erase something that was not there in the first place.
@@theletterm1787 _Preeeetty_ sure he's referencing the tendency of gamers to only cry "CENSORSHIP!" when it's something they like being censored (i.e titties), while they're perfectly happy for something to be censored if they don't approve of it.
Played that in spanish and people call her a man, its like animal crossing all over again
Huh, i didn't even heard anything about either the original or the remake text in Spanish, so i assumed it would be the same as the english one in both instances. You got any screenshots?
@@Amsel_616On the original you can find It out easily. But, as an spanish person, I can corroborate that this actually happened.
Im not gonna enter on the debate if Vivian was a crossdresser or a transgender person because when I looked Up which is which I came out with even more doubts.
But if you want the dialogue , I can more or less translate from memory.
From Beldam: ...Sisters? But what are you even saying, you are a *boy* !...
From the character bio: He may look like a girl, but he is really a boy.
@@JoseViktor4099 Entonces parece ser que el tema es más una cuestión cultural de Estados Unidos qué otra cosa. En cierta forma me recuerda a cómo aquí en Latinoamerica jamás vimos a la señora de los capítulos viejos de Tom y Jerry como una sirvienta hasta que nos lo mencionaron.
@@Amsel_616 Supongo que como era un tema más tabú, pues eso se removió.
Y es chistoso , porque aparte del vino, todo lo demás se censuró en España.
Aunque me sorprende que la gente le dé tanto bombo, me parecía y me parece que se está sobreexagerando el tema esta vez.
Does the Spanish version have the scene where the goombas hit on Goombella?
The original version in the other European languages seems to be accurate to the original Japanese version from commenters, and this would have been a great moment to have the European English version be accurate too. But during Game Cube, there was no such English version and still to this day you often only get US English instead of accurate English. Even tiny things like how the original Japanese version is metric, and the only English version, US English, changes all the units, so there's no English version with metric, but every other language is metric. There's a large audience who must play in English but uses metric. So you basically have to learn Japanese, German, Spanish or something to get accurate text in the game
The irony is that the issue is solved already on a system level. "EU English" and "US English" are seperate language settings, but I have rarely ever seen it used for anything. If anything, the amount of seperate localizations for europe and america seem to have *decreased* after the WiiU era.
Yep, the Italian version was somehow the most explicit (and progressive) of all the localizations afaik. It kept all the dialogue relating to Vivian being trans but changed the tattle and encyclopedia text to not make Goombella accidentally transphobic. Which funnily enough seems to be what the remake's localization also did.
I'm of two minds: on one hand I don't think it would be bad to show the party being ignorant and just going off of what they heard during the encounter in Boogly Woods at first, and when Vivian joins the party realize their mistake. But on the other hand it'd have to be made a bit more explicit and given some focus - not easy considering how little interaction there is between the party members in most of the game. So if that's not possible, changing that encyclopedia text is a good compromise.
Long story short it's still mostly censored
Hell ya
Feels like most people just saw the title, assumed whatever they believe is true, and didn’t actually watch the video.
I have no idea what to think when it comes to this controversy.
Edit: If I were Nintendo Japan, I would've just had Vivian be a biological girl for the original Japanese dialogue so that I could avoid the backlash the thought of Vivan being perceived as Trans would me dished out.
Edit 2: I would also love to hear Japanese folk's input on this controversy and determine whether this dialogue change is faithful to the Japanese Dialogue from the GameCube version.
I don’t think that’s a good solution either. People/companies
should really stop caring about backlash and just translate things accurately/keep it the same as the original. People crying on twitter doesn’t actually do anything, and they’ll find something new to cry about in 2 weeks anyway.
This dialogue is definitely not faithful to the original and
from what I looked up most JP players consider Vivian a boy.
@Hollow_Tim For a boy, the remake sure gave him a distinctly feminine (if not girly) voice regardless of localization. Sure, boys can pitch their voices to sound effeminate. In fact, female VA are popular with voicing children because they sound identical. But I can clearly tell from a guy speaking in a pitched tone from an actual female's vocalizations.
Then again, Vivian is a essentially a spectral being. They don't have to have to be tethered by fixed biology, let alone by sex. I can easily imagine one changing its gender as it desires (assuming that is assumes one to begin with). Whether it be a boy experimenting with womanhood/femininity (to the point of metamorphosing the body and voice to feminine ones), a boy who transitioned to a girl (again perhaps with said metamorphosis), or a girl to begin with, any (if not all) of the above can still apply. Then again, that's just my interpretation/headcanon that I came up of as to simplify the complicated matter (and in a fun way, imo).
@@cadethumann8605 Probably since Vivian is a trap/femboy, for which they basically draw a female character (and give them a female voice) and call it a boy
@@Hollow_Tim Perhaps that's the intent. However, it still feels weird to me as femboys generally don't sound like that (even in some Japanese media I've seen with male crossdressers, I could still tell that it's a guy with their masculine bodies and voices (even if effeminate). Then again, perhaps part of it is because I'm used to identifying Viv as a girl ever since I played the Gamecube version in America. I was still fine with the idea that she's trans as I could still call her a she (in fact, perhaps even more so as Viv reminded me of my sibling who is trans). I have no issue with boys crossdressing (in fact, some of my favorite characters in anime are them), but it's hard for me to shake off from identifying Viv as a female after so long.
Regardless of the developer's intent or my childhood nostalgia, I still prefer my interpretation that a ghost like Vivian can be a he or she whenever it wants to. I find it much more interesting whilst still playing with themes of identity and escaping from those not accepting you for who you are (besides, chapter 4 plays with themes of identity, being mistreated, and being accepted for who you are deep down), with Mario's body getting stolen by Doopliss and Vivian trying to help him unlike all others (including his partners) who see him as a monster).
Why would you want them to censor themselves to pander to sensitive people?
To summarize, we have an original Japanese version which the original English changed. Now, we have a remake whose Japanese version changes the original Japanese version and the English remake changes this newer Japanese version even farther. What a mess. Honestly, I just wish the Japanese stuck to the original version for the remake and the English properly translated the original Japanese. Regardless of the intricacies, this whole thing it feels like censorship just in the other direction, for the Remake English version at least. And for the Remake Japanese version, it seems like they went the Yakuza route where this mindset influenced the Japanese script itself as well. Again, what a mess.
She was trans in the original Japanese version
@@theletterm1787You didn't read what I wrote, or didn't watch the video.
@@averagewhiteguy2 I'm just stating a fact
@@theletterm1787My comment addresses the issue of how the remake script for this scene is changed in both Japanese and in English, which this video discusses. What I was saying was that it would be nice for the original Japanese version to have carried through to the Remake and for the English version to properly translate it. Instead, we get changes upon changes.
@@averagewhiteguy2 But, again, the original game depicted her as a trans woman.
Personally I care less about shotty / censored localization and more about how the remake doesn't run at 60fps like the original did. Honestly just play the GameCube version on Dolphin with HD textures.
Here's the real question: Does Goombella still hilariously call Ms. Mowz a cheap floozy?
I don't recall her ever saying that in the OG but she still does express how she does not like her if you have her out as a partner.
"Boy" or "girl" heart, or 心の性 (heart sex/gender) is the Japanese implementation of English gender theory. This is the language used in sex education books now in Japan.
@FF8IrvineFanwell put
>gender theory
True
@FF8IrvineFanget a life and stop getting triggered over a cartoon character
@FF8IrvineFan It’s not hating it’s literally correcting you that Vivian is a trans woman. Her arc with Mario is about finding his identity, she calls herself a woman and decides to not be ashamed for feeling that way. To dismiss her story as just some comedic gay trope is wrong
Talking about this game in a rational sense is going to be impossible now.
Yeah, people were waiting for remake of ttyd or a return to form to classic paper mario formula for the longest time.
Now that the remake is out, the game has become another piece for the culture war. We can't seem to just enjoy games anymore.
@@Mina27325 Sometimes when I have those issues I think, maybe we all had enough internet for like a week. To think that such dope comeback for Paper Mario is getting tarnished by these goofy ahh arguments.
@@Mina27325 “I like War. No, I *love* war! I love all kinds of wars!”
From World War to Cold War and now the Culture War, “war” really never changes.
@@Mina27325 Just imagine a Chrono Trigger remake and how they portray the character Flea, who has the same problem as Vivian.
@@Mina27325 The way I see it, you can absolutely do that. You just have to steer clear of the culture war peddlers. Don't let them poison your enjoyment of a game.
This is just Bridget from GG situation all over again... western branch enforced on Japanese branch to turn an otokonoko into something more... ESG-compliant, in all versions, no matter how it pretty much destroys the character on the way and turns him into a png that will be spammed in front of pastel flag by insane activists on Twitter to mock people who prefer the original character rather than the brand new pandering puppet character was turned into.
"Force," because you can't accept that the original japanese dev wanted to make this change.
The original script for Vivian is very clear that she's supposed to be a trans girl.
@@kap1618 Because they had no reason to change it, and apparently some Treehouse employee admitted to pushing to turn Vivian trans.
@@kap161841
@@Razor7557First, give me a source. Second, this is Nintendo they own the ip and the console. No one can force them to do anything. If an artist want to go back on a work and change it that's their right. Why can't you accept that?
Im just glad to have her in my party :) shes so cool
@FF8IrvineFanshe* seethe
@FF8IrvineFan Beldam speech bubble
@@Xxsorafanfacts. SPEAK THE FACTS GIRL.
I can't confirm since i haven't played it yet but apparently this is more of an english problem because there's nothing of this gender thing in spanish
Apparently it’s not in the French or Korean versions either (though apparently it is in the Italian version)
the way you say "otokonoko" in a very strong English accent, making it sound like as "ottokonikou" instead.
This is a hard one. It certainly seems like the English is trying to make it seem like it’s trans while the Japanese is going for more “What do you think?” kind of storytelling, where it’s up to the viewers perception what they believe which only becomes an issue when other people try and force their views onto others.
I don't think it's hard. Do your job and translate what Japan has written. Don't change it to fit westerner views. If Japan left it up to 'you figure it out' it should stay that way.
Both EN and JP left it very unambiguous, imo.
The original GameCube Japanese the trans concept is rightfully mocked as delusional and funny, and even in the ending scene a joke is done about how can Vivian and sisters be the trio of sisters if he is a guy .
@@QuincyQuinn95 the Japanese was altered because of DEI and you pressuring the so we’re going to have to pressure T out of existence :)
@@but_iWantedTo_speakGerman Just try it - I'm a proud B. Take me down too.
pov: You’ve played the italian translation and nothing has changed between the two versions of the game (Vivian was already transgender)
Its so funny. You look at every translation of the original, kind of hinting at her being a transgender or a feminine boy. The Italians just say, cut the crap she is Trans.
Ah yes Italy made the game? Og no right that was Japan. Only what the creators think matter. Everythimg is fantasy for the translators feelings. Aka lies.
@@Nick9572and i'm pretty sure she's still trans there.
@@mouthlesshaterit doesn't exist
Hm, very interesting, a very welcomed change all in all, still i wish they could’ve been more accurate to the original, that would’ve been something.
Well at the very least this video is getting that engagement. My guess is because so many children played the original and have a passing interest as an adult to the remake or maybe even buying it for thier own children and nieces and nefews they gotta reconcile this feeling.
welll bullying vivian is lore acurate
😄
It is a confusing issue and I've even looked up translations of the original Japanese script and compared them to the English version and still couldn't grasp the meanings being inferred. I just want accurate translations, I certainly didn't expect that Nintendo would change the Japanese script. On the other hand, the localizers lost the benefit of the doubt when we learned much earlier that some nothing, throwaway lines involving Goomba flirting with Goombella had been removed for no normal reason I can think of. So...I don't know...
I mean, the reason's pretty obvious. I think they could've kept them, it would've been fun and given Goombella a bit of a moment of glory to put some assholes back in their place. But eeeeh.
From what I looked up it seems Vivian refers to himself as female but everyone else calls him a boy.
Very lame that they had to f it up even more than the original english version. Definitely not buying this stupid remake.
I wonder why you'd consider treating Vivian the way she was always meant to be is "fucking it up" somehow.
@@antonioscendrategattico2302 Because this translation isn’t how it was meant to be, wtf are you talking about
@@Hollow_Tim The actual authors added text in the game to make Vivian more clearly trans. I'd say that their intention trumps your interpretation.
And let's be real: if Vivian herself says she's a woman, and it's other people who think she's a man... who do you think is more likely correct?
all this just because nintendo dont want to make direct translantion? 😅
A direct translation of the intended outcome is likely impossible without all nuance being lost. The Japanese language has a few features that, translating the direct meaning, loses nuance. The example being あたい (atai). It *literally* means I/me, but it has a cultural connotation that needs to be translated across as well, which is that it's typically used by girls, and is pretty much unheard of for guys to use it.
To illustrate the point, let's take a sentence from English, specifically Southern US dialect, as this would also lose nuance in a direct translation:
"Well butter my butt and call me a biscuit." - Let's translate this to Danish:
"Smør noget smør på min numse og kald mig en kiks" - and back to English:
"Put some butter on my ass and call me a biscuit". Sure, the meaning is about the same, but in Danish, this wouldn't make sense. It just sounds like funny american speech to us. It doesn't even begin to get the nuance across that it's supposed to be an expression of astonishment. Instead, one could translate it as either "Det var da satans" or "Der blev jeg taget med bukserne nede", meaning "That had to be Satan's..." or "Seems like I was caught with my pants down". If I wanted to make it real clear that it was supposed to be highly accented, I could translate it as "Da ble' jeg da li' tau me' min bukser ne'" (Lookin' like I was caught outta mine pants there!)
Both of these ways to do it would be ways to express surprise, but each makes sense in their native language, where a direct translation (even when I've tried making them work in English) they just don't really convey the same thing.
@FF8IrvineFan But that’s not a 1:1 translation at that point since you’re losing meaning
@FF8IrvineFan Then I'd point you towards the Evangelion Netflix dub, which absolutely sucks.
And still wasn't accurate, incidentally. You want your game to sound like the opening of Zero Wing?
@FF8IrvineFan The malice is literally all in your head my dude.
@FF8IrvineFan Not only would it not be 1:1, you aren't even guaranteed that an AI wouldn't screw up its translations maliciously. The AI itself could be compromised, either assuming A: Assuming a "instruct"-type language model, a malicious prompt, or B: Just straight up, a biased dataset.
Now consider the primary AI tech providers in the world:
Google, OpenAI and Meta. OpenAI swimming in Microsoft money.
If I were a culture warrior like you, I wouldn't trust things coming out of their products.
Granted, even if we aren't poisoning the well, AI has a tendency of being confidently wrong. You wouldn't *know* it was wrong unless you actually spoke Japanese either. Are you really going to trust a glorified text prediction over a human being?
This debate confused me when I first learned about it because I always thought: "How does a shadow have a sex/gender?"
Because they’re fictional characters
@@andreaspaghetti7342that doesnt ask the question, pls dont be rude, people have the right to ask logic questions even in fiction
I mean, a cloud also has a gender.
@@andreaspaghetti7342 I know, but I was eight or so at the time.
@@kait6406 How is that rude? It's literally the answer. A shadow can have a gender for the same reason a shadow can talk or an inanimate material like paper can move on its own: they're fictional characters.
Thank goodness I can read Korean. According to the Korean translation Vivian is actually male who has a feminine appearance. So based on this Vivian is actually male and not trans.
Due to bad English translations when it comes to Nintendo games (and pretty much all J-RPGs) I have my Nintendo Switch set to Korean not English.
Plus Vivian is a bad translation IMO. It is actually 불비안.
Kinda like Prince or Zarbon and Whis from Dragonball.
>male, and not trans
Do you even know what these words mean?
Mario RPG was the only one that had a good translation
@@theletterm1787 Sounds like you completely ignored what he said just prior to that where he states "male with feminine appearance".
@@theletterm1787read the comment again, slowly this time.
Vivian has always been a femboy, not trans.
Why are they so hung up on calling everything and anything trans, just because you've got a feminine boy or masculine girl? (I know why, just a rhetorical question.)
For the same reason you're so hung up on calling all trans characters not trans.
esg money
@@SeralyneYT Because they weren't?
Bridget definitely wasn't, without a shodow of a doubt. He litrally was forced to look feminine to hide as a nun, and there were many details about how he hated having to look feminine, and how he wanted to be masculane.
Viv is a bit more of a maybe case, but the original makes it pretty clear that he's a guy, and just acting like a girl to connect with his sisters. Then later on he likes being feminine, which to be clear, does not make him trans, that makes him a femboy.
Because political agenda and EGS and DEI shit
@@SeralyneYTBecause you are a sophist.
"But Nintendo of Japan doesn't do this stuff! It's only Nintendo of America who are doing this!"
to those people id say
"thats funny cause nintendo of japan is one of the most LGBT friendly corpos in japan, guaranteeing identical benefits for opposite and same sex couples which is uncommon in japan."
True ignore fools that say otherwise
Conservatives are allergic to research
@@otakuthegreat Nintendo of Japan is so much more progressive than most companies over there.
And censored Vivian yet again
Good
@FF8IrvineFan I mean, it's at least closer than whatever the old English version was trying. Granted, it's still a bad translation. The original text is still a far away dream.
@FF8IrvineFan *her
@@asdffdas254 Him. Up yours.
@@asdffdas254 Him. Shove it.
by wiping out all references to Vivians real gender in the past, they painted themselves in the corner where they can't just call her a male in the remake. since the western audience grew up with Vivian the girl.
No? This is them referring to her as she was referred to in the original Japanese.
why do lgbt members have to make things so damn confusing
what is so confusing about "I am a girl"? I mean, the only thing making it confusing is that OG EN localization covered it up.
@@QuincyQuinn95Otokonoko.
Because they want to force their beliefs onto normal people, by any means necessary.
@@TeamBelmont91 Again you can rewatch the video's explanation on otokonoko if you need to, I'll wait
@@QuincyQuinn95 Sounds like you need to watch it again, because you clearly didn't understand it the first time.
If only the Japanese language wasn't this confusing
I don't think this is the win it should be a "trans ghost" is bleak when you put more than a seconds through into it
I mean, the Mario universe has characters that are literally born as ghosts (The Boos, specifically). Also, the Shadow Sirens/Sisters aren't exactly "ghosts," similar as they might be.
Vivian is a ghost, and a demon, also his sisters are witches that use magic so that makes Vivian a wizard crossdressing as a witch or in this case a trans witch, also they are all kids of the evil shadow queen so yeah this it very bad gay and trans "representation" in a cartoon / anime video game.
Vivian isn't a ghost she's a shadow
@@gamerdom4481 As a trans witch myself, I see nothing wrong with this lmao
Vivian isn't a ghost, she's a shadow.
This character was male in the Japanese original and continues to be male in the Japanese port - both of which were developed in house at Nintendo HQ.
Just another "localiser" moment.
Nah, this is DEI moment. He is a girl even in the Japanese version of the remake
pretty sure she's a girl in the original japanese? idk about the new japanese tho since i can't read japanese, but from what i've heard she self-identifies as female in the original japanese version.
@@mouthlesshaterno look up Otokonoko
@@mouthlesshaterno you're just being obtuse it doesn't exist
@@otakuthegreat what doesn't exist?
What's significant about this one is it's one of the cases where we're seeing politically-motivated changes are not only happening in the localization, but is occurring in the Japanese script as well.
I have a feeling that even if they made Vivian a crossdressing man in the english remake there would still be complaints and they'd want her to be censored like she was in the original english release.
So long story short, Vivian can just never win?
@@paperluigi6132 Yeah exactly.
The same people complaining that she's trans would complain if she was just a crossdresser
How do beings who only wear hats and gloves crossdress?
@@theletterm1787you're no better then lol
To me, this is just another example of TTYD being extremely balls-to-the-wall, something modern Nintendo probably wouldn't try today. The noose in the town square, the chalk outline with a "bloodstain" on it, and everyone being horny for Mario are a few examples of this.
Nintendo wtf were you thinking...
beldam speech bubble
They were thinking "Man, I'd love to get one of those great big ESG/DEI bonus cheques in my bank account!".
@BloodrealmX I'm more baffled they did this in the original game at all. It's such a weird decision to write into the game. Especially one for kids.
@@rabble_rousdower The original game didn't specify being trans. Crossdressing can bring a fun dynamic to things.
@@BloodrealmX That last sentence made me wince
Treehouse at it again.
She was trans in the original Japanese game
@@theletterm1787 Nope, just a guy that wanted to be feminine to relate to his sisters, then decided he wanted to be feminine regardless, i.e. a femboy. Not trans. No dysphoria.
Treehouse should join41
@@TheMorbidHobo Why does she identify as their sister then?
It's worse. It's DEI
Wiat, I'm confused, so is this video saying...
That in the REMAKE, the JP version of the game had its text became more like the English version of the original game's translated text.
But for the EN version they kept the original game's English translation but added one new line of text to hint at Vivian being male???
No, the Japanese remake makes it more clear that Vivian is a trans woman. The English version of the remake is more accurate to the Japanese version than was the case with the original game, so now Vivian is trans in the English version, too.
@FF8IrvineFan tourist get out of the Paper Mario fandom
@@dreamer72Ironic.
@FF8IrvineFanpeople demanding people accept the inncorect canon of trans Vivian amongst hating on all the sequels for not being exactly like TTYD make me not interested in being part of the fandom, and I like some of the Paper Mario games, but the whiney, toxic, preverted fanbase just ruins it for me.
@FF8IrvineFan yes, yet they claim to be against cultural appropriation yet are forcing Japan to adapt western woke thinking.
People making a big deal about this makes me not want this game at all. All this LGBT bullshit annoys me to no end. Didn't know video games required it. If I knew that when I started playing back in the 80's I would have not played at all.
And why does a game require cis/straight characters? Didn't know video games required them. You're free to stop playing games nowadays if you're annoyed by them though. Odds are you won't be missed.
@@SeralyneYT “Cis” ppl don’t make a big deal about being straight. Gay ppl shouldn’t make a big deal about being gay.
@@adotg2640 Right. So why is there straight romance in pretty much every piece of media under the sun if y'all aren't making a big deal about it.
@@SeralyneYT a “cis” man and a “cis” woman kiss in media, people don’t care and just move on. If two gay couples kiss, lgbt is celebrating it, making articles about it and tell everyone to look.
I can understand you man. The spanish version was completely uncensored, touching this now since 20 years ago, and in Spain everyone is Happy that the idea more or less is still there.
But when I Saw that instead of saying "Oh cool" a debate of what is what, calling the Game Woke and disregarding it more and more can get very tedious.
Even I shallowed on this video because I didnt knew what to spect.
I do like this more open depiction of Vivian's identity along with the lesson on Japanese terms.
I get the feeling theres gonna be an influx of certain people caring about accurate translations all of a sudden.
And they're suddenly fluent in Japanese, too.
People would love some good context of the original translation in English instead of something completely confusing lol.
Yep, bigotry and conspiracism make for strong motivators. It's pretty baffling that some people can't grasp the implicit meaning of a character framed as a boy wishing to be a girl, especially given the context in which TTYD was released, when trans understanding/acceptance was uncommon. Detractors grasp so strongly to any direct references of male identity, as if a trans woman couldn't, or wouldn't ever conceivably describe themselves or be thought of in that way to convey the meaning of their newfound identity. Even the information provided in this video only reaffirms Vivian's trans status, but they'll still feel the need to bend the utility of language to suit what amounts to a petty scheme.
@@megamillion5852 I guess you misunderstood who I was talking about
@@megamillion5852 now I see why Megaman fanbase slowly corrupt..
"Look how they massacred my boy!"
Bro did not watch the video lmao
"I have boy's body, but a Girl's heart" is pretty much what symbolizes femboys/ crossdresser
As for trans, the key point is that they are in the wrong body but has a female brain.
Vivian acknowledges her body is a boy and accepts it. At least from the Japanese version.
how does "girl's heart" mean crossdresser?! If anything, that mirrors how trans people described themselves with being born in the wrong body for decades...
Yeah there's nothing wrong with having that as a character, it's just annoying getting all these 'fans' online claiming Vivian as their newest wish-fulfilment character. Nobody was upset about Vivian before this. For old fans in America she was a girl and even when they learned about the changes they were free to enjoy her as whatever they wanted. Now Trans are being obnoxious everywhere claiming they won and making everyone hate them.
@@QuincyQuinn95 People take things too literally. There have been saying like, "I have the heart of a warrior", or "you've got the heart of a lion". It doesn't mean they actually are warriors or lions, but they enjoy the association.
@@NoxideActive Ehhhhh, not entirely true on "nobody was upset about Vivian before this". After I discovered this game, I looked it up and Vivian, along with Birdo, have been celebrated as trans icons since their inception, basically. And Vivian's censorship was a hot debate ever since too. Probably just didn't see it because of running in different circles.
@@QuincyQuinn95 Vivian, along with Birdo, have been celebrated as trans icons since their inception? I've been around the block for a while and this is definitely false.
When I was growing up, the world was very into "You are X, therefore you must act like Y" And instead of reaching a sensible middleground, where anyone is free to act and dress as they wish, Now were have gone to "You act like Y, therefore you must be X"
Like, can't people just be individuals? Why do people have to force them into boxes?
Why can't a boy wear feminine clothes, and act girly, but still remain a boy?
Saying he isnt a boy from doing that stuff is no better than saying he is a boy so he is not allowed to do stuff like that...
But she ALWAYS said she felt like a sister. The only thing that changed was EN publishers not letting you hear it.
What's wrong with her identifying as a girl?
@@QuincyQuinn95 FELT like a sister is the keyword there.
You can feel like something, while remaining something else.
I am a male, but I also enjoy feeling like a girl sometimes. To act in cute ways, to wear leggings and tights.
When I was younger, I always felt shame about it, because "Boys don't stuff like that"
Now that I am older, whenever I express this side of myself to, I am constantly trying to be 'cracked', that I am a girl, and I should start taking HRT.
I am a man, not an egg, and as a man I am free to dress and act however I please without people labeling my how THEY wish. And Authors should also be able to do the same for the characters they creative without people coming in and saying "they are doing it wrong, change it"
@@theletterm1787 What's wrong with someone who acts feminine identifying as a boy? Why are YOU trying to erase people like ME from media?
Why don't I deserve representation too?
@@videotroll72 You do. Nothing is wrong with you, and crossdressing is valid, and "pinkpilling" is an abomination.
BUT
as I mentioned in a prior comment, the evidence for Vivian being "otokonoko" in the OG JP script was tenuous at best, and here we have EN and JP at least solidifying their stance on the matter. And people are celebrating her real, true identity. Nothing is being erased, because this is who she is. And that has no bearing on you and yourself and how to continue seeing yourself as a man. You and her are different, and that's ok.
There are great crossdressers, I admit, that the fandom goes wild with and headcanons as trans. Haruhi Fujioka, and her father. Chihiro Fujisaki. Naoto Shirogane. Lukako from Steins;Gate is a bit of a weird case because he actually DOES ask for a world where he was born a girl, but that's rooted in his attraction to another man in the series, these weird feminine roles he was given because of his appearance, and he continues to be addressed as a man (in the timelines where he is one). And you'd be full in your rights to defend your representation with them. But I simply don't believe the same can be said with Vivian, not now and not back then.
In Japan it's common to have men dressing up as stereotypical girls. Society doesn't really care, but neither the society nor these men are in any delusion that they're not really men. They may want to behave and dress up like women but this is a lifestyle/personality choice, they are fully aware they are men, they aren't ashamed by that, it's just the reality of things.
This is who Vivian and why he says he has a boy's body and a girl's heart. He is a boy but wants to be part of the sisters gang. The game refers to Vivian in the description as a boy for this reason.
On the contrary, the English version tries to push the currently controversial and highly biased-narrative that men who inherit feminine mannerisms are in fact women, and refers to him as a girl, no questions asked. It's censoring the original Japanese version, and a subversive brainwashing attempt for kids.
Nah, trans people exist in Japan and both physically and socially transition exactly the same as "western" trans people, sorry.
@@Peasham Not really though. People can accommodate to a person's persona, but they're not in any delusion that someone like e.g. Matsuko-san, is in fact a man. And if they'd describe him they'd say something very similar to Vivian's original description.
@@OroguSaki Nah, they regularly refer to trans people as their gender and, if applicable for the sentence, their preferred pronouns, with trans people regularly identifying as their gender. You're just completely, objectively incorrect, and are making this up based solely off of your fantastical view of Japan as opposed to having done any level of research.
@@Peasham I live in Japan since many years, you're making many faulty assumptions. As I mentioned above, they accommodate people's persona by referring to them in the gender they want to act-out, but aren't in any delusions. If they'd write an article about them as in the game's description, they'd mention they are in fact a boy as the game originally did.
@@OroguSaki Damn that's so funny, I also live in Japan and it's the exact opposite of what you say.
Okama erasure
Goon about it somewhere else
okama lol ..now thats a word i havent heard in many years
@@XxsorafanYWNBAW
@@Xxsorafan you coming or what?
@@jahrfuhlnehm IDGAF
In the sentences shown in the video, the use of オトコノコ (instead of 男の子, which is by far the most common way to write "boy", or even おとこのこ, which means the same thing but is only used in works for children) strongly suggests slang. Using katakana for words that are native to Japan in games, manga, anime, etc. in this way is a trope to convey that the word is used in a slangy manner or is spoken in an odd way (such as being said in a robotic voice, or by someone with a thick accent, etc.).
The game is written in katakana, are you blind?
@@Alice-May As you can see in the video, it is written in kanji, hiragana, and katakana.
Do a video on how the remake censored fat jokes and any use of the word "insane" or similar
I think the original is a Phelix situation, where it's just a man dressed as a female
No, it's a trans girl
@@theletterm1787 No it's not trans, that's an Otokonoko
How are you so sure that was the intention? @@theletterm1787
@@theletterm1787 Stop imposing Western terminology on the Japanese.
@@andrewfantome4020 Stop imposing transphobia on the Japanese
It's very interesting seeing what they did with the remake. They tried to change things that don't fly anymore in this day and age and make them more in-line with modern sensibilities, and Vivian is no exception. Vivian was always a depiction of a trans woman, but it was a different time back in the GameCube days. Being transgender was more misunderstood, and it was thought less highly of back then, especially in Japan. The GameCube Japanese original was very typical with it's depiction of trans women, with how it said Vivian was factually a man even if she thought of herself as a woman and referred to herself as such. The remake avoids this old misunderstanding, and adds lines like "has a boy's body, but a girl in their heart" which is a very standard way to say someone is trans in Japanese in a non-offensive way. Overall, I'd say changes like these are okay, and are actually expected of a remake. The remake isn't the same game, and its devs have different values and creative intent than the original devs, so I'd say they're allowed to make changes like this.
That being said, they absolutely go too far with it. They also removed all instances of Beldam misgendering Vivian, which wasn't even problematic considering it's a horrible person doing it with the context that it's wrong. By doing that they minimize Vivian's struggle with finding acceptance and support which makes her joining Mario's crew less impactful, and it makes her trans identity pointless from a story perspective. I guess they were afraid any depiction of misgendering could cause controversy and just didn't want to chance anything? Whatever the case, HUGE L.
Vivían IS not trans
Modern sensibilities are just like 2 dialogues
Also its amazing how for You people IS never enough, cope seethe and dilate
私 is watashi, not atai, this does not add up.
Isn't Watashi used by people of both genders?
@@kap1618it's more a singular thing. It's mean "I'm" with only the kanji
Watashi is used mostly by women in general, but can also be used by men when trying to be formal.
@@completelybraindead watashi is the formal, "I" not for just for females, females use atashi, atai or washi, which are all "cuter" forms of watashi. Also, in JP personal pronoun I is not exactly, "gendered" it's more of a how do you want to be perceived, so "boku" and "ore" are "stronger" which means typically used by males but females who would want to sound strong use them too, and it doesn't mean they want to be perceived as male, it means they want to be perceived as head-strong.
It's funny how fast activists who were mad about Vivian's original depiction being inaccurate are thrilled about this inaccuracy since it's their pet issue.
Wait what?
@@antonioscendrategattico2302 Vivian was a crossdressing guy in Japanese. In English Vivian was a girl. Now in the new English remaster Vivian is transgender.
@@Vulpas It's clear in the Japanese script that Vivian saw herself as a woman.
@FF8IrvineFan Hooboy, I'm sure you totally know better than the fan translators who provided that translation, I'm sure.
Let's hear it, come on. Let's hear what *your* translation is, then.
@@antonioscendrategattico2302No. You are taking from Italian's translation.
The people who say that Vivian is trans are the same ones who say that Astolfo is trans, so make of that what you will.
They also say Cloud from FF7 is trans cause of him crossdressing in the game.
Nintendo are the ones that are currently saying that Vivian is trans, but go off ig.
@@gamerdom4481 lol, are you for real? It's sooo over, bro
They update the terminology in the remake Japanese version as well. So it's not a Western thing, but that was the intention at the beginning, and Nintendo is consistent with all game versions.
@@moistenedwall1003 It's more like localizers are revising a 20 year old game for their own purposes.
For me, i will calling He/She, because i don't want get politic, so i want be neutral so i called he/she
vivian stuff still censored just from the other side of the political spectrum. very unfortunate .
Buttercup from PPGZ is a good example to why Vivian using 'feminine' pronouns doesn't mean he's trans or a girl. Buttercup uses 'Ore', which is a masculine 'I'. Why does she do this? Because she's an 'Otenba', or Tomboy. Vivian uses pronouns in the exact same way as he's an 'Otokonoko', which I think means feminine male. *FEMININE MALE*
Buttercup is owned by CN and Craige. Not to mention Buttercup identifies as a girl even when she's a tomboy. Vivian identifies as a girl and used female pronouns.
Vivian literally refers to herself with the pronoun "atai" in japanese in both versions of the game. A FEMALE only pronoun. While always saying I have the body of a boy but the heart of a cute girl.
A character can literally look at the screen and say "I'm trans" and people will say "um actuallly...🤓"
@@kap1618 I've already tried to explain Japanese pronouns to you. Learn about their culture.
@@MegaGameXtreme so, you didn't read what I said. Males will use feminine pronouns when feminine, and females will use masculine pronouns when they feel masculine. They don't identify outside of their biological sex. Just say you know nothing about the Japanese outside of free crunchyroll.
@@butteryfriedwizard2219 What you said about Buttercup is correct but she still identifies as a girl like Vivian. Vivian calls herself Beldam's sister. It's not just her pronouns.
I'm laughing at the ones in this comment section trying so hard to interpret Vivian as a femboy or whatever, when the Japanese makes it clear she's trans. Many Japanese players have interpreted it as this and so did practically every localization team. You may not like it, but deal with it.
You disappoint me that you are part of these people who like to spread this LIE that Vivian is trans. What many of you people don’t understand is that in Japanese calling any woman a man is offensive and that doesn’t translate well to English. Yet so many think otherwise to the point where few will listen to people like me who are telling the truth and it doesn’t help many sources think exactly the same as these people. SMH it is so infuriating this appears to be overshadowing the remake to at least some extent.
It's vague at best. Vivian could have been a cis woman, gender fluid, a crossdresser or trans because of the vagueness of the original Japanese script. And it's not like Nintendo hasn't done trans characters before, like Birdo.
@@Mr.scooter-le8yo Yeah well the manual that says that is full of errors anyway such as calling the aforementioned Birdo Ostro. Plus Birdo was always meant to biologically female although for no good reason Nintendo likes to tease people about it. Additionally I believe Birdo was also based on something that only exists in Japan.
@@Mario87456 Ok but what about Kirby? In America Kirby is considered as male but in Japan it's neutral. Nintendo has always played around with different gender roles beyond the normal ones.
@@Mr.scooter-le8yo It’s more ambiguous really than neutral with Kirby. Although most people know Kirby is supposed to be male.
@@Mario87456 that's only in the American version.
Can you do a video on how 4kids censored Kirby?
So some people in the comments of a channel against censorship are actually pro-censorship JUST this once because they don't like the content being uncensored this time.
You can discuss the nuance of how the west vs the east discusses gender, but the new english translation is pretty accurate to how vivian always described herself (my own valid interpretation) without using specific terminology liked transgender that would proclude a more eastern concept of gender such as otokonoko or what have you.
Otoko and otouto were used as an insult for her in the original japanese, so I wouldn't expect her to self identify with otokonoko.
But anyone straight up wanting a return to OG english translation is just procensorship; you just want to wield the power to censor what you want, and keep only the artistic expressions you see as sacred uncensored, and that's hypocritical, full stop.
Vivian is a male who cross dress. Many just need to stop forcing things to be something it's not just force a message. Western localization are know to alter lines just to match the western political beliefs.
Beldam speech bubble
Indeed, Devs got through so much scrutiny to make the themes and characters fit and localizers just swoop in and do whatever they can with far less scrutiny.
Yes. Stop forcing behavoirs.
Thank you for clarifying all of this. As usual, both extremes of this discussion have been wrong.
No it's one that's the pro trans side
@@otakuthegreat And why, pray tell, are we wrong?
I admit I feel there is a lot of debate on the translation and if it is accurate or not. I feel there is good reason for both sides and that it is understandable to feel either way to, at least, want it to be 'accurate' as both options seem accurate to both parties for this instance. I can't blame anyone for being on either end....
What I will call out are people who are that upset over this and are being VERY hateful over it. Yes I get that some people are being annoying over this 'win', but that is not at all an excuse to be transphobic and say such terrible things about people who are uh trans or into the trans community. Its disgusting how some people think will say "this shouldn't be in a Nintendo game" or something just as annoying and terrible. Some people need to learn to be respectful of the topic!
I am not blaming Censored Gaming on the topic, they just don't think the game is translated accurately and thats fine (he probably knows a lot more Japanese then I do, thats for sure). Just think the hate I've seen on other videos is not at all needed.
Holy based take
I can understand your point. However, another issue I found is that the word "transphobia" is constantly being overused for illegitimate reasons to the point of meaninglessness like the words "**cist" and "muh soggy knees" (I need to censor words because of the shadow bans).
Remember what JK Rowling said and they attacked her for that. I have no sympathy for her, though, as she created the monster like many celebrities.
Further, there are also people who are for the "alphabet community" who are just as hateful and if not even more hateful towards average Joes and they aren't helping their cases.
Please sort the comments section in case my comment get shadowbanned.
@@1685Violin I understand if you think me just throwing out accusing others of transphobia is questionable and is me just using a word with no meaning, but I am fine with providing more examples of the hateful behavior that I feel would better represent the bad behavior. How about the fact people bring up that VIvan being a ghost makes her a questionable choice for trans rep (just a joke in poor taste basically, also Vivian is a shadow not a ghost, but it's likely they honestly don't know that), or how those saying the orginal gamecube translation was more accurate just because it turns Vivan into a girl, this is despite the fact that the orginal at least had Vivan as a boy (in the uh body way, not the way they prefer to be presented) who wants girl things at least.
Jk Rowling is just questionable to me and I just rather not focus on them. But I will say the drama that happened around the Harry Potter game was unnecessary and people should be able to enjoy whatever they want, at least if there is no bad intention around it.
I agree that the LGBTQ+ community also has bad eggs as well. There are terrible people on bother ends. It's possible I am mainly seeing those against this whole trans vivan thing being nasty more then those who are accepting yet disrespectful of others for just existing. I ain't denying that. That said it doesn't mean one side doesn't deserve to be called out while the other doesn't, if both are bad then both deserve to be called out.
@@hiddenflare6169 Those two examples of "transphobia" are simply just examples that should be laughed at because of how ludicrous they actually are, especially on the part where Vivian is being refered to as a ghost rather than a shadowy figure known as a Shadow Siren. That's minor by comparison compared to far worse comments I heard about the transgender community.
You may disagree on me with this but Rowling is correct in terms of the biological sexes. That is basic science for decades. I agree with that because I reject the morality of the progressives and I stand for a different kind of morality. However, that doesn't mean she is my ally because she belongs to a different ideology; the same ideology as the monster that is going after her.
This brings to the third point and it's the part of the reason why I no longer support the alphabet community: that community doesn't care about hypocrisy or self-reflection. It's so sensitive that they go after one of their own if they have political views (usually moderate right wing views) that are contrary to their views and use the same tactics as what they did to Rowling. I have two known examples but I can't mention their names without getting shadowbanned. One of them has a Greek last name and the other one has the first name "Blaire". Both of them are hated fiercely with extreme bigotry by the alphabet community despite being gay and transgender respectively, especially towards the aforesaid "Greek" man that caused an "uproar" back in 2017. Just to be clear, I don't agree with them either politically. The point is if the so called "bad eggs" of that aren't called out for their violent actions, then there is a reason more people, including gays, aren't taking their victimhoods seriously anymore.
As for the bad eggs at the other side, there are plenty of people who criticize them and often give them advice about self-reflection, self-control, and going to church.
Japan-only video games should happen to never worry about censoring for other countries.
What about games that are censored in Japan? Like the original Crash Bandicoot games and Resident Evil 7
@@nathanblackburn1193 Those are not Japan-only video games. Those are US video games, and they do not count.
@@LuigiTheMetal64 Paper Mario TTYD isn't japan only either? Also isn't Resident Evil Japanese?
@@nathanblackburn1193 Kaeru no Tame ni Kane wa Naru is a Japan-only video game. It was never released in the US at all, but it is for the best.
Exactly but conservatives over here are crying about this being uncensored
I’m sick of all these changes for “modern audiences”. I canceled my preorder of this game. I loved the original version back on GameCube and I’m glad I still have my copy. I don’t need to spend extra money on a butchered port.
The gamecube version is already censored but your okay with censorship when it's against something you don't like.
@@kap1618 this censors way more though. It also cuts out cat calling dialogue. I’d be shocked if it stops there either. All I wanted was to play the game I grew up with on a modern console without woke weirdos sticking their headcannon into it.
@@gt3racer2187 I didn't like the removal of the catcalling either because they're bad guys and bad guys are jerks. The "woke weirdos" you hate so much didn't do this Nintendo did. But I guess censorship is okay of it'd against "woke wirdos."
@@kap1618 why do you think that was removed? Get a clue.
@@gt3racer2187 But you're fine with conservative weirdos sticking their headcanon into it?
I think that vivian is a much better representation for people who are trans than birdo. The fact that Birdo is trans is only used for jokes while Vivian gender is used for her character arc her sisters couldn't accept her for who she is but Mario and the other partners could
YAY! SHE IS FINALLY UNSENCORED!
💙💗🤍💗💙
"Otokonoko" is closer to traditional cross-dresser role in eastern culture so most of us Asian will confirm them as more like "girly man" or Thai's ladyboy and we had no problem with feminine boy but we're still going to put them as men, so god knows why the western rainbow categorizes them closer to mtf for whatever reason they think they're correct on the culture they didn't even understand.
Culture aside, this is more of a modern 2020s GLOBAL issue about respecting another person's wishes in regards to how that person wishes to be identified.
If the person wants to be called a man, let him be called a man.
If the person prefers to be called a woman, let her be called a woman.
So if Vivian didn't care about being called feminine male terms like "girly man" or "ladyboy" it would be fine to use those identifiers.
HOWEVER, in the original game:
「どこが 三姉妹だよ！
あんた オトコじゃないかい‼‼‼」
"Where are there three sisters!
Aren't you a male!!!!!!"
is obviously upsetting to Vivian who feels excluded by the statement as she visually demonstrates wishing to be identified as female.
The REAL problem is the developers decided to remove this line, possibly to avoid causing any backlash caused from demonstrating bullying/abuse based on identity in the game.
I feel this is the wrong decision, though, as instead of highlighting a real world problem that shows Vivian as a deeper and more complex character who is trying to live her life in an unfair world, it ends up obscuring (even changing) how Vivian self-identifies.
TLDR; in the Japanese original game Vivian definitely wanted to be referred to as female, but in the Japanese remake it is not as clear.
文化の問題ではなく、これは2024年の世のどこでもの問題ですよ！
You are aware “Otokonoko” as you know it is written as “男の娘” in Kanji yet most instances don’t have the 3rd kanji there or just use Hiragana or Katakana instead to just say “Boy” or “Man” instead. So clearly, you don’t even understand your own culture by admittance. Since the character here repeatedly says they are a woman, part of the 3 Shadow Sisters and so on.
@@maverick_loneshark Actually no, they went out of their way to make it MORE explicit than before. “それに じつは アタイ・・・
体は オトコのコだけど
ココロは カワイイ オンナのコなの”
"The thing is... I...
I have a boy's body, but my heart is a cute girl's!"
“カゲ三人組の一人だった
体は オトコのコで ココロは オンナのコ”
"Has a boy's body, but a girl in their heart."
The main reason I feel they took out the gender bullying is likely the same reason they dropped the catcalling, it became much harsher in hindsight in 2024 compared to 2004
@@AWMonopolyMan
Good point.
While those particular lines are the ones I find to be more obscuring, I do agree with you for pointing out that Vivian still includes herself in the three sisters line and uses アタイ (I don't know if 男の娘 also use アタイ frequently or just for rejecting cultural norms but doing so would certainly seem to lean towards a female identity).
I haven't actually played this game and am just going off of solely what the video presented, so I wouldn't know if there are more explicit self-identifying instances from Vivian and do admit to having limited intel.
My bad.
@@maverick_loneshark As far as I am aware, Otokonoko (as 男の娘 which is Male Daughter/Male Girl) is basically a slang term for men who have a culturally feminine gender expression. As far as I am aware, they don’t explicitly refer to themselves by a female gender identity. Basically the last kanji (子 for child) is replaced with (娘, for daughter/girl).
Literally the only version where her being trans was censored it's the english one
Even the Spain spanish version adds a reference to an actual trans actress by changing Vivian to Bibiana
No, we changed the name to Bibiana because we don’t use v for the start of the name, also in the Spanish version Vivian is referred as male by herself, the character description, etc. Don’t put your political things in my language
@@leonelzubieta8636What exactly was political about their statement?
@@Peasham What exactly Bibiana has to do with trans?
@@leonelzubieta8636 What exactly does being trans have to do with politics?
@@Peasham You know it was an expression, not everything you have to take it literally
If they changed/reverted his sex for the remake, why keep the female name?
30fps too
kek
Vivian has been referred to as a girl since her debut. The "debate" was if she was trans or not. To those arguing to those that think she's a he or a femboy despite evidence please read the below paragraph:
Sealioning is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with relentless requests for evidence, often tangential or previously addressed, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity, and feigning ignorance of the subject matter
Considering Vivian was a boy who was just dressing up to try and fit in with the people who were bullying him, it’s a bit sad to see how they ruined it with the localization. From the original localization changing the character, to this one trying to add the localizer’s own views onto it.
I’ll just wait for a proper fan translation in the future and just play that, just like what happened with Fire Emblem Engage.
I just hope localization eventually becomes a thing of the past as we get proper direct translations going forward.
there was no localization issue. did you watch the video? the japanese version made the same changes.
and vivian was bullied for CALLING HERSELF A GIRL. it's a bit sad how you don't see that.
this is incorrect. Vivian was always trans in the Japanese version. has nothing to do with localizers. in fact, the Japanese script for the remake doubles down by having viv say "I have the body of a boy but the soul of a woman!"
@FF8IrvineFan Bro actually pulled a "Up yours woke moralists. We'll see who cancels who" LMFAO bro facts dont care about your feelings.
Make Orwell fiction again.
What does this mean?
This comparaison is ridiculous. Motivated translations were a thing throughout all of history.
The original GameCube translation was pretty Orwellian yea
I don't like comparing something as petty as the translation of a video game being adapted to cultural sensibilities of the target market as the kind of horror described in 1987, feels in bad taste.
But yeah, if we have to, it's a lot more orwellian to erase Vivian's trans identity than it is to change a few lines to make what was already in the text more obvious.
Literally 1984
It is kind of funny how in just a couple decades localizing Japanese media went from being censored because too gay, to being rewritten because not enough trans.
Either way, I think it's safe to say Vivian doesn't mind female pronouns.
I mean, crossdressers tend not to use female pronouns (outside of, like, a drag show persona or something), just saying...
Why does it feel like the fake straights gathered here...
I wanted to get this but im really tired if the political message being forced into everything. All you had to do was keep the original translation, make a new EN translation that was more faithful to the original and the option to change to different translations. That would have been less work, but they went above and beyond to basically rewrite a characters storyline to conform to some political ideology.
Seriously? A single line of dialogue stops you from playing a game?
@@danielj8085 Yes because this comes from gringos who call me latinx. Im tired of them.
Did you not watch the video? The english version was changed to be uncensored from the original japanese script. You wrote this whole thing without even watching.
@@matimatizI'm a gringo and would never call you that...sounds like a racial slur to me, I don't see how that's the "politically correct" term.
@@PaperBanjo64 Im aware lot of gringos dont even us it but do politicians, journalists, companies, localizers, activists and others. They push this political correctness for divisions.
It wasn't changed, this was always the case.
@FF8IrvineFan clearly you didn't play in 2004
@@Morgformer Don't bother replying to this guy. He'll call you a liar and a gaslighter and threaten to report you and all tons of shit just for standing your ground and... actually speaking Japanese.
@@SeralyneYTNarcissistic as always.
@@SeralyneYTGoogle translate ain't actually speaking Japanese, friend.
@@Peasham Sealioning is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with relentless requests for evidence, often tangential or previously addressed, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity, and feigning ignorance of the subject matter
(Posted this as a reply to a comment but I felt like making it an individual comment).
I would prefer just avoiding the conversation and probably the community altogether. These kind of debates get very toxic, obnoxious, and insufferable on both sides. It’s like the whole Bridget from Guilty Gear debate which was also got pretty toxic and obnoxious to the point that it made me avoid the character and the Guilty Gear community and games period. I didn’t even know much about Guilty Gear but that whole drama was not a good first impression for me all. It had left a very strong sour taste in my mouth.
Honestly, because of this obnoxious crap about Vivian, I also feel like either avoiding the character in question or just most of the Paper Mario Community, specifically the Thousand Year Door side of things since it’s just given me a sour taste. Does all of this make me seem petty? Arguably yes. But I’m not really into Paper Mario nor its fan-favorite second installment all that much anyways so I don’t truly understand nor feel empathetic about the hype and love for it and all that. Anti-social as this may sound, I don’t really fit in well with communities/fanbases and am more of an outsider who doesn’t understand people and prefers distance and isolation.
i think the best course would be to enjoy the characters as they are and not get lost in debate, yea
Do not let transphobes sealioning deter you from liking things.
Vivian has been trans girl for decades, the USA remake gets it right from the original and every loser on the internet loses their damn minds, across the globe.
It's sad how far we've regressed. We went from rejecting degeneracy to embracing it. I miss 2004. Such simpler times.
I blame social media and all the morons who encouraged it just for clout.
Transgenderism isn't "degeneracy", it just doesn't belong in Mario. Don't borrow Nazi buzzwords.
@@jlev1028it is so hush
I miss it too
@@jlev1028 "Nazi Buzzword" Lol!
Weird how they put back in the trans but took out the transphobia. Let bad guys be mean.
I know, right?