How Real RPG Play is Better Than Storyplaying
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- Опубліковано 17 вер 2024
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Archer's # of arrows left in their quiver is equivalent to a mage's spells per day. It's highly relevant resource management that's quintessential to the game, it creates situations that challenges the player's critical thinking skills, & hence drives the character's heroic story forward.
"Have you tried caring less"
Back when I first started I heard the meme about how RPG's are a storytelling tool, I believed it initially but I came to realize within a few months that if that was true at all, they're terrible at it. Too random, too unpredictable. To ensure anything happens in a way that's coherent as narrative and "as planned" you have to manipulate the fuck out of the mechanics provided, fudge rolls, railroad the players, all things which should be a clue that you're trying to force the square peg into the round hole, it will fit but only if you coax it with a hammer.
I didn't really start having fun with RPG's until I dropped the whole "story time" facade and just designed some initial scenarios, NPC's and locations and just reacted to what the players did in real time.
When I did that I had the amazing discovery that I no longer felt compelled to ignore die results or change rules from the bottom up to manipulate the outcome. It's more engaging for me as well because I don't know what's going to happen and finding out gets me motivated for every session.
You should try playing Crimson Cutlass or In The Company Of Delvers.
@Szymon Lech Dzięcioł take a look at Crimson Cutlass from Better Games. Chronicles of the Outlands is their Fantasy Themed Game. Players are given lines of text that are picked out by drawing tarot cards.
I played d&d for the first time in 1981 and it was 'unlike anything I had ever played or seen before'. Kids these days should focus on that last bit vs trying to emulate crap they see in movies or video games while thinking d&d is going to somehow be better than when they've seen it all before.
I've been playing for 37+ years and this topic never ceases to amaze me. Back when I first started we were derided as 'dirty campaigners,' or 'Dragonlance wannabes.' Yes, to the former, and HELL YES to the latter. By one side we're accused of being storytellers not role-players (eff off!) and on the other side we're accused of denying player agency and player fun -- DM fiat, all all of that. Those people can eff off as well.
If you place the story before the rules you're placing the cart before the horse. That's stupid, and it's what I see with the modern DnD crowd. If you play the game and turn the character and group actions into the story, that's a wonderful way to play. It's a story where you don't know how it's going to turn out. It's a story you all make together.
The game rules (modifiers, feats, restrictions, etc.) are the necessary universal constants. They are the gravity = 9.81 m/s² and the speed of light = 299,792,458 m/s, of this fictitious world. They are the rules that govern how everything is created, acts and reacts within which the game universe -- they are the rules by which the world and stories upon that world are created.
I completely understand and agree that the story shouldn't trump the rules. Although, I will let an appropriate, cinematic, and clever idea trump the rules (once!) for the sake of character cool factor and player happiness. Oh, I'm sure to let the player know this is a one time deal, but the action/idea so awesome I need to let you try... now roll the dice.
While I don't keep an exact accounting for every ounce of encumbrance, yes, you better mark off that arrow if you fire it. I will not avoid character death and I will not stop the characters from going left when my story would be better off if they went to the right. I'll adjust fire as needed.
Make (and even write!) your stories by playing the game, not the other way around.
Adapt your game for the players is what I always say. I do ask them to try it my way once.
I agree 1000% , it's a pathology and indicative to me of how society is failing, a generation rejecting challenge and wishing away adversity.
And the irony is that so many of the new story-focused RPGs base everything in crazy dice mechanics, often using custom dice, when most of it can simply be roleplayed. Looking at you, L5R.
This is your best video yet. It gets to the heart of what an RPG is. If RPGs were just storytelling, we'd use a different word for it: "Storytelling"
I've done lucid dreaming since HS, and your comment re:what forces you out of a dream is the first time I've heard that. It makes perfect sense.
In the Traveller RPG, bad stuff like Twitter and other bad stuff that makes Jump Space less "smooth" or "harmonious" will likewise kick you out of Jump Space often between stars with no fuel left :-)
Thank you. Please share it!
Caught you on Don the Pleb's stream the other day-- and I'm so glad the guy who wrote Dark Albion is always one of the few remaining bastions of common sense in an increasingly insane industry. Keep it up!
Thank you very much! Spread the word and share the videos!
Emulation is a good reason, but so is instituting risk v reward feedback loops. Even if you aren't trying to be immersed, you need these things to run a game where players make more meaningful choices
Aaron the based
I remember when i started out, i'd have my main combat armor (usually chainmail) and then my travel armor (either studded leather or chainshirt). I've always tracked my ammo and made a note of the fact that my character would be using his whetstone to touch up the edge of his sword when we make camp. Any time we came across a river i'd have my character check the water and fill his waterskin if the water was clean. I'd also look for berries and such when hunting. As you've probably guessed, i usually play a ranger. I also typically took Animal as my first Favored Enemy since i tended to play my rangers mostly as hunters before they started adventuring.
wish more games would be like that
Thankfully, I have never once dreamt of twitter.
Reminds me of an sci-fi/modern RPG special power I read in the mid ' 90s. Can't recall exactly where I read it, if it was a game book or a magazine article. Basically IIRC it gave you endless ammo until all enemies in the scene were dead, but slowed your move movement, I think you couldn't take cover as well. It was either called the "Arnold Schwarzenegger" or "Rambo" effect it something like that. Anybody recall that?
I saw this from actual D&D people on their own UA-cam channel.
thats what I dont like about the 5th edition adventures like Descent to Avernus etc Its basically a big story where certain things happen and the characters no matter what they do get involved in the "story"..The start of it i think was the Dragonlance saga where it is basically the novels but you roll dice..the fantasy life simulator is a much better way to play
I see it the same way. X life simulator
Yes! We need to say long and loud how story gaming is failing.
It narcissistically gives a central, cinematic spot to the characters, when a classic RPG has a universe that will bring you face-to-face quickly with the fact that your character is just one puny body that can be totalled by a high falling damage or a monster's high number of hit-dice. In real RPGs your character can have a small effect for change on the universe -- if they learn mad skilz like magic, or if they apply the lever of their actions at carefully chosen spots.
Also the story games remove the primacy of the GM, and give players creative powers to edit the world. Make the GM boss instead! That will ensure a consistent vision of the universe better than some vague player collective.
I take a drink every time he says "right" and now I'm wasted.
Was one of the things you're trained to avoid during Debate and public speaking. My crutch was similar, I used "You know" a lot. Had to train it away when I gained my position.
The issue with it, is that it's viewed as a verbal crutch indiciating that you expect people to agree with you. It's not a true question, but rather a rhetorical statement actively seeking acquiescence, and forcing the listener to pretend to understand what your talking about in order for the conversation to continue amicably.
Fast talking is often an accompanying habit. Both are the purview of swindlers and hustlers. Works really well when you're dealing with unintelligent or passive audiences, but not so good when dealing with people who have convictions and rationalized points of view.
Now that dreaming stuff sounds interesting. I've not had much luck trying to direct my dreams towards any purpose.
Editable Twitter Tweets, haha, that is definitely an inconsistency that will kick you awake from lucid dreaming.
Also: reasonable moderators.
Critical Role is to TTRPG what porn is to RL sex.
I said that in a video!
I hate the trolls that want to use D&D or any game to try to think of themselves the next RA Salvatore or Hickman/Weis that will use and abuse the game people wish to play to turn it into their 2nd rate novel later, as well the streamers like *Critical Trolls* that just use games for their failed drama careers just to make use of their drama classes.
Do your own thing, but stop trying to force others into your weird fanfics for novels or "shows" in video format. Let people play the game. These weirdos are now trying to turn board games into their weird little furry fanfics now too.
Don't force people to "RP" for your entertainment, because the game only needs it when the player feels like it. Most game systems don't even have rules/rewards fr RPing outside of furthering the gameplay to the next scenario.
This all just shows why the Matt Mercer Effect exists and why it is bad from those trying to write books from their gameplay sessions and from "shows" on streams.
I remember a dream I had where I walked outside in the dark and a after hearing a rustling off to my left I stopped and as my eyes adjusted to the light I realized there was a jet black simian shape that about the time I was able to see details it screamed at me showing obvious carnivorous teeth. Then it unfurled huge wings and took off into the dark night clutching the old style blue milk crate it was standing on in its feet. I could hear it flying over me but couldn't see it at all.
Yeah,,, my heart about exploded waking me up. At ten years old an eight foot tall heavily fanged jet black winged gorilla flying directly over you in the dark tends to have that effect and yeah the milk crate seems out of place somewhat but I think it was there just to make me aware that it could grasp with its feet just to make sure I was pushed over the panic mode and man did it work!
Bad brain! Bad! Bad! Bad brain!
It also means you are racist against Black airline pilots... :-)
smh at how many people say "RPG" and believe they're all talking about the same thing...
There are RP games that do storytelling incredibly well. Torg is one of them. So yes, you can story tell with RP games, but they have to be EXPLICITLY designed to do that.
And what is the greatest reason to practice the awareness of dreams? I would tell you but men would not believe me. The sage says:
"If I speak to you of earthly things and you do not believe, how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?"
And:
"As the Bronze Serpent on a pole was lifted up, so too shall the Son of Man be lifted up."
If you find the bronze serpent on a pole you can drink from the grail. If you drink from the grail, you will see the great stone. If you see the great stone, then you will become eternal, like the Trismegistus. When you are asleep, look to the watcher who watches the watcher; it is he that shall awaken you.
It is a game of politics. Both the GM and the players must have input into the game. There must be give and take for everyone to fill satisfied. If as a GM you fill the players are just taking and not giving. Find new players.
Remember there is a GM Shortage.
If you have infinite arrows, why not make a bunker and similar fortifications out of arrows? Why not make a ship out of arrows, and fashion the infinite feathers into a massive sail, with an arrowhead anchor? You think that's air you're breathing?! 😏 Arrows.
Myy go-od. i had a browse on the DnD channels with their braggging stories of adventures..dont seem like games just fantasy trips.. Difference between ego trip / cosplay and an adventure RPG. I blame you for making me check them out!
I'm sorry. However, my goal was actually to look at them myself so you wouldn't have to.
@@RPGPundit :) at least i am now innoculated ty
11:45 Bunker analogy is a really great point actually. It brings to mind how the stereotypical dwelling of old school RPG players is in the basement; keep the games in the basement, lock them away from the homogenous hordes!
We need to show how RPGing is done, we need podcasts of our own. Those with 40+ years of RPG experience represent peak performance.
But there are some toxic newbies who claim there is a revolutionary, better way to play, that we are in Year Zero, we can tear down any experience of the past, all that Marxist/Pol Pot bullshit as applied to gaming.
Unproven.
In my opinion, DMs are not storytellers (and a roleplaying game is not best played as a storytelling game. If you want to play a storytelling game, there are games designed as storytelling games that do that much better). A GM places challenges in front of the players, the players try to solve the challenges, and after you are done playing, then you can tell the story (or stories) about what happened at the table. As a byproduct of play, a story may emerge.
It occurred to me recently that, at some time in the past (maybe around 3rd edition of D&D?), professional writers took over the design and adventure making of D&D; as opposed to the original D&D material which was written by a shoe repairman and a security guard, and other wargaming hobbyists. Sometime around then the game became about telling stories (which is just what you would expect a writer to be interested in) rather than the exploration of maps by PCs and combat with fierce creatures to obtain treasure [in a hexcrawl or a dungeon delve]. Video game influences (which are much more linier or like chose your own adventures) also began to influence TTRPG design [for the worse in my opinion]. Modules began to be written as movement from plot point to plot point, rather than allowing characters to roam around in the sandbox pursuing their own ideas and motivations. It seems like this was around the time that the term "railroading" arose and was used as a derogatory term by those of us who had grown up playing the open world/sandbox type of campaign to describe these ‘plot driven’ 'straightjackets' type of adventures. The linked videos are a great example of this point of view (which I agree with): ua-cam.com/video/4c9BoqE-jeY/v-deo.html and ua-cam.com/video/PIQpVNbLwuE/v-deo.html
The story is what happens at [or away from] the table AFTER they game is finished for the evening, when tales are told of what happened during the game. When I hear GMs, game designers and others talking about the three-act structure, overlaid by the Shakespearian five act structure, and then talking about the realization moment in screenplays [coming at approximately page 80], and the climax of the story, and [heaven help us] the denouement, etc., etc., I know that I am listening to someone who likely learned to play after the rise of the 'storytelling/video game' type of adventure.
Back in 1974, when age 10 to 25 year old 'kids' were putting together their D&D worlds and building sandboxes for others to play in, we/they had little formal education about story structure and the like [and wouldn't have thought about using it in the design of a 'dungeon' or wilderness adventure anyway], but we/they knew enough to create challenges for players to overcome, which creates the environment for conflict (which is critical to drama), and with players having created motivated characters who were seeking fame and fortune, and were placed in such a sandbox environment, they organically created story through play. Look at things like the Judges Guild materials from the late 70s. They are filled with locations, creatures, NPCs, random tables and such and not plot points, a main narrative, etc. A DM is not a storyteller and RPGs are best used as role playing games, and not storytelling games.
I agree about the whole storytelling issue. I think though, that RPGs are neither a cooperative exercise in emulation or simulation. I think the correct term is "cooperative speculation." A situation is put forth by the GM, then the players (in the constraints we call a character) speculate on what their character might do, and then actualize one of those choices through the rules. The cycle then continues back and forth. The fun is then seeing the results of how it all turns out. The story happens after when the game is over and everyone talks about what happened.
I think the “story telling “ excuse of gaming is used by people who are too embarrassed to admit they are pretending they are an elf with magical powers - it’s easier to explain to your friends and family who don’t understand why you and your buddies are down in the basement rolling dice and shouting at each other threatening violence
A hard-earned "Like" on this one on the realism.
Found you through your stream with Don the pleb
Amazing work
Thank you!
_I don't get it_ . *Devils Advocate here* . " _So RPGPundit says that cinematic story-time playing is bad. It fails to tell stories effectively. That's Not the way to play to get the most out of TTRPG's, even if he admits they are having a sorta fun_ ".
Ok, cool. Don't play that way. Did I get that right? How should we play then? Telling us that we are doing something wrong is OK, but I want to learn a better way. Saying you have to make a simulated world is technically an answer, but it's not gonna sell the concept to someone who's already having fun & wants the LARP'ing thing. It's like trying to convince someone to start reading H.P. Lovecraft books & stop reading Clifford the big red Dog. This argument needs some meat to convince the devil. Not negativity.
THANK YOU! I hate that soy rpg horseshit. I can’t stand it when the GM asks the players what is happening. Who’s the fucking gm here, me or you?!
Isn't this the classic "You are having the wrong kind of fun!". I am an old school guy, but I really enjoy the Storyteller line of games(VtM) too. The problem is when other people try to tell you what is the right kind of fun or how you should have fun. Whether it is you or the PC-infected crowd. Whatever floats your boat.
I know there are some authors who use RPG's to create the stories/books they write. I think the rules can help keep the story consistent and believable, indeed the consequences of the rules can add more intricacy to a scenario. That said I have grown to have a strong distaste for the youtube story gamers and their oh so dramatic "community". Cheers.
I think class/level based/D20 systems promote roleplaying about as well as Diablo does. They are built for hack 'n' slash monster slaying. Not that you can't roleplay or roleplay well in such systems, I just feel they are more suited to dungeon crawling.
Grew up on 1st & 2nd edition D&D. After a friend of my dad's introduced me to Rolemaster, Runequest, and Harnmaster, I was never able to go back to D&D.
also i really don't understand why there seems to be so much "hate" flying around. just built up that sand castle again that no one ever actually stepped on, no?
Wut
@@DAEDRICDUKE1 you mean the word in german?
15:40 Ha! If there's one indisputable law of this universe is that the more realistic your game the bigger your gamer-peen. That's how you ascertain who's higher on the gaming hierarchy-a careful tally of which system has more tables (log scale ones count double), though for quick-and-dirty rough comparisons of manhood, a comparison of CRT size is a good proxy. So if you're not keeping track of arrows and bowel movements and everything else, you're just straight up inferior. It is true it takes a huge amount of work, but then again I don't date -much- at all, so I have plenty of time. 👌( -3-)
And you will make no friends calling the weaklings out.
“You have no enemies, you say?
Alas, my friend, the boast is poor.
He who has mingled in the fray of duty that the brave endure, must have made foes.
If you have none, small is the work that you have done.
You’ve hit no traitor on the hip. You’ve dashed no cup from perjured lip.
You’ve never turned the wrong to right. You’ve been a coward in the fight.”
― Charles Mackay
Commonly held but false. People favour the bold.
track spell components or go play MLP
I've seen amazingly autistic MLP dnd and pathfinder splats
Beholders & Bowel Movements :-)
I've got to disagree with you though. Realistic means "like reality." It's not realism. It's not a perfect facsimile. And it is an admirable goal if you are interested in what would actually happen if only X Y and Z were true (which for me is the root of all RPGs). It is not an admirable goal when you waste 5 hours doing what could have been done in 5 minutes for reality's sake.
Otherwise, if being realistic didn't matter then we should have no problem with quivers that hold a thousand arrows, except for when they are suddenly empty. The thing though is that the imagination itself is only interested in two things: that which could actually happen playing out the way that it would actually happen, and those things it had never dreamt of happening still playing out in the way that they would actually happen. The natural and the supernatural. With both of them you are still playing by reality's rules, and nothing amounts to disappointment quite like a game breaking these rules because it needs to fulfill the plot of a story - hence the reason why so many of us don't like story games.
When the hero wins simply because they are the hero?
Because the players are the stars of a show?
That's a fail.
But the goal here is not to be realistic. It's to be alive.
"Realism" in gaming mechanics does not help Immersion, it MASSIVELY HINDERS it, because you reduce all kinds of things that should be handled through roleplaying into being mechanically deterministic for the sake of "realism".
So "realism" is an attempt to make a game "work" more realistically, while making it feel much less alive.
@@RPGPundit But if gaming mechanics massively hinder immersion, why do we bother to have them? It would make more sense to play with no rules whatsoever.
IMHO we game with rules to superimpose a sense of reality over the dream, basically to make it seem more real. The problem is that people can't leave well-enough alone. Designers think they need to write a rule for everything. Gangrene. That's not a part of the dream of combat so we leave it out, but when it comes down to weapons doing different amounts of damage as opposed to "all weapons do 1d6 damage" that fight was lost a long time ago. Weapons do different amounts of damage because in reality we know that they do and its hard for our imaginations to imagine it otherwise.
I know reality is an ugly word among gamers, but there is no avoiding it. Reality is where we live. We all want something fantastic, but possibly more importantly we want our fantasies made real, and that's what the rules are for.
@RPGPundit
Your definition of realism isn't accurate. Something realistic isn't a perfect copy. It's simply an attempt to make something work as accurately to life as you can, within the context of the artform.
You can draw a realistic picture of a dragon, or you can draw an unrealistic picture of a dragon. The realistic one would take into consideration setting of origin and corresponding biological features; like the texture of the scales. An unrealistic depiction of a dragon would have an image of a dragon where the setting suggest certain facts about the creature, but that the depiction doesn't show.
You can have a game that realistically simulates aerial combat, or one that doesn't. Fighter planes have pilots whom have biological functions just as a character in an RPG, but they aren't simulated - often times the pilot isn't even considered. It is the player's skill, not the characters skill that matters in a flight sim.
Realism is a perfectly fine word to use in TTRPG design as a goal. The goal posts are constantly moved in that endeavor as people think of more creative and streamlined methods of reaching that goal. Moving from AC to Armor as Damage Reduction, then moving from Armor as DR to hit locations and armor penetration as a binary outcome is a perfect example of this moving goal post.
Simulating bowel movements or hair/nail growth is unnecessary in most circumstances because TTRPG don't cover every second of every moment of a characters life. "Down time" and travel cover all the biological functions and needs the overwhelming majority of the time. It was a disingenuous argument at best to suggest otherwise, and at worse the argument was loaded with so many fallacies it'd make a Democrat proud.
Man, I hate shared improvised storytelling in rpgs....it sucks and produces stupid erratic stories...
But telling what are rpgs for or how the should be used is absurd.
Telling people that are having their fun “wrongly” makes no sense.
Letting people do whatever they want is the only rule.
If they like storytelling from a rpg or from a refrigerator magnet, not my problem.
I will play somewhere else
"man I hate it when people use race cars as garden ornaments and claim they're professional race car drivers, but telling people what cars are 'for' or how they should be 'used' is absurd!"
"Man I hate it when people wave crystals around and claim that it can cure cancer, but telling people what 'medical science' is or what's 'rea' medicine or not is just absurd!"
@@RPGPundit comparing false cancer treatment proclaims with the way people uses a fucking game book to get fun from it...?
Didn’t see it coming, really...
Coño, si hablas el castellano de p**a madre, acabo de enterarme...acojonante el bilingüismo que gastas. Aquí desde España no sabría si eres de América del Norte o del Sur
Gran canal, por cierto, felicidades.
What happened to just having fun?
Why do you allow twitter in your lucid dream ?
Pundit makes a good point and then goes on a bizarre anti-realism rant that completely refutes his entire video.
BuT tHe InCeLs...
Realism is the wrong argument. It is probably the reason why people who fail to grasp what RPGs are for don't even consider alternatives, because they assume anal-retentive rules-ultra-heavy "realism" is the only other option.
@@RPGPundit If you are arguing that RPGs need to create a virtual world that feels real to the players, then you are arguing for realism, whether you like it or not. You don't like games that are less realistic than you prefer (such as those that don't track arrows) while also condemning games that are more realistic than you like. However, those same arguments can be used to show that tracking arrows is just as anal-retentive as tracking bowel movements (or food or water or endurance etc.)
Both realism and playability are good things and the goal is to find the balance between them.
@@Hedgehobbit no, sorry, you've missed the point entirely
Think of it like this: "realism" seeks to create a kind of giant Legoland that perfectly mechanically imitates through artificial rules the world in which we live plus elves.
What Emulation of Living World does is use certain rules as a kind of magic box through which to make a Gate into another Plane, a real world created out of the stuff of our imagination. What in occultism is called a "Thought-Form".
We DO NOT NEED to make millions of rules to simulate reality. We tap right into Archetype & Symbol by the magical-language of d20 rolls & random tables, to have a self-generating reality.
We don't have to make it "look real" because it will BECOME REAL BY ITSELF through the Ritual of PLAY.
@@RPGPundit Your view of what "realism" means is way too narrow and doesn't match how most people use the term. There is no game in existence that tries to emulate everything and no one is arguing that such a game should exist.
Realism is a goal of a traditional RPGs. But so is playability. The trick is to balance realism and playability according to how you want the game to feel.
As to making a game world become "real by itself", I can't see why tracking arrows in necessary for this but tracking food or water is not.
"an entire generation has once again been taught how to do D&D wrong." ...hmm, well. aren't you trying to tell the same people that they're doing it wrong? is there a way of doing it wrong? i understand the argument, that a more story driven type of play might interfere with certain rules. there are definitely other games out there that support story telling better then D&D. but why tell people they're doing it wrong? i honestly don't get it. it's a game. let's just play, no?
There's not only one way to have fun. But in terms of actual funcationality there is definitely a way to play D&D wrong in the sense of not living up to the potential of how it's meant to work. It's like trying to use a screwdriver as a hammer.