Yes, I read Designing Freedom when it was first published. I then bought "Platform for Change" in 1975. I have read nearly all Beer's books through the years. I am now chairperson of my local Liberal Democrat constituency party. I will be using my position to market/publicise the necessity for government to re-design the components and the system architecture of the legal and economic systems as an integrated whole that maximises the citizen's autonomy.
I don't understand how democratic, participative networks are an emergent property of management cybernetics. seems very idealistic. where is the application of this aside from the ivory tower ?
I'm studying complexity in business organizations. The first half of the course was systems thinking. The second half of this course is complex adaptive systems. Your video on cybernetics gave insightful meaning to the science of cybernetics; it was very helpful. Thank You!
Systems of business and governments currently marginalize stakeholders. The theory of Cybernetics is a potential theory to open up pathways to stakeholders to allow these components of systems to resonate more fully but we need more use cases than theories. Decentralizing the web through the Solid Framework, Decentralizing AI, and the work Vivienne Ming is doing through Socos Labs are a few examples. How many more examples are out of there of people working on ideas to build more resonant systems? Time to create excitement around use cases to validate the theories which will drive more use cases!!! Thanks for sharing.
Cybernetics is a great tools for removing "substitute of knowledge" such as norms, ethics, and culture. Yet the world is colder and heating itself. Great video, thanks^^
Hello, just asking, in 20:26 entropy is in mathematics category. Isn't that in physics category? Or something I missed to misunderstood? Thank you very much
Javier Livas Do you have a copy of this presentation in pdf form? You list all the disciplines that are a part of the whole. Do you have these in a list form?
I find that the plans for many large structure and technology seem like the organs in the body; and when I learnt about DNA, genetics and radiation I found that there must be way to intermingle machines with biology; and this idea made me consider things like machine that can break down material, even DNA and restructure them, and this made me consider if gamma radiations could be reused. I wondered how much energy is created when a atoms detach and reattach to one another. In a sense I found there is no real difference physically between the environment, animals and machines. Which made me re-think about cybernetics and that real living cybernetic organism could be developed and redefine what biotechnology is.
In the end, every organic entity has a material body. The problem is that they are very complex. This sets a limit to our knowledge of how to re-create life.
maybe but look at any diagrams for buildings or reactors and you begin to see something that already could be used as a organ from a greater machine; for instance proposed fusion reactors; I think we may be further than we comprehend. But I think we as humn can also see ourselfs as the biological components of a machine also I'm really interested in artificial wombs, digestive systems, and wonder why we just don't get a machine to generation haploid cell such as sperm rather than rely on nuclear transfer for cloning- surely we can easily transfer the art of the body to a biotechnological machine by now. I also wondered if we could integrate skins and technology that like bacteria merge with our body even replacing the skin or components in our bones; and transform the body. I find biotechnologist do not really have the technological skills to produce such ideas but cybernetics seems closer to those ideas and ideals.
THank you, please share the link as many times as possible. Will we waiting to see what you have to say in your book. Are you familiar with Stafford Beer's DESIGNING FREEDOM? My next video will touch upon this subject. Hope you like it.
Thanks for making this!! It's a very interesting compilation. Towards the end it's difficult to follow with so many concepts. btw, "will save" is way too reductionist, no? ;-)
the internet is a tool to share content. the real change, critical change, must translate to the brick and mortar. the best use of the internet is to connect all local organic farms with local organic businesses and independent artisans, to truly localize distribution channels, channel toxic entertainment industry content into authentic arts, theater, dance, music, crafts. to create new models of hands-on learning education, which will eliminate the need for the asinine public education system...education, entertainment, entrepreneurship--organic, wholesome, authentic models intertwined into systemic effectiveness. here, we arrive at "authentic variety: variety of creative, innovative action, the "verb way of life" and dispose of the "mechanistic, contrived, stale variety of "unnecessary, often toxic, consumer products, Veblen goods. the "noun way of life." we do not need to alter genes, but simply, our attitudes. altered attitudes in this righteous direction will be repulsed by such a desperate misguided attempt at self improvement.
Nature has no purpose, a purpose is a man-made concept, please check scientific studies in the related field. In general this video is a good introduction to Cybernetics science.
It depends on how you define "purpose" ;) With Javier's definition above it makes sense to me - for certain things, but more in general, if you ask a question like "What is the purpose of life?", I think the word "purpose" should have a different definition...
There is no way around the fact that the purpose of a System is what the system does. It acts just a as human would. There is no difference and both can be alive in that sense.
Agreed, but I was trying to convey that the word "purpose" can be used in different ways, for example: what is the purpose of a toothbrush? A toothbrush doesn't do anything on its own, it needs to be used by someone else, and that's what determines it's "purpose". Most people use a toothbrush to clean their teeth, but some also use them to clean their shoes and other stuff. In this sense, the purpose of an object is determined by the way it's used. What do you think?
this matter of interconnectedness between everything in the universe has " to be " so !!! if you accept the reality that everything is energy .( all energies are different according to their vibratory rate frequency . frequency is the big KEY !!! it is like the identity card of anything !! now another about the AND could it be a mini electronic card representing the whole identity of this living entity .just as a clone of it !!!! able to reconstitute this whole living entity . just as the seed of a plant or tree !! this hypothesis make big sense . it could be a copy of that entity which under certain conditions in combination with the energies of life could start again the process of life similar to the one that is coming from ?? as it is already commonly found in nature everywhere !!! considering that each living being has its own very specific AND. since everything is energy in its nature we must not continue to think in terms of biology or neurology but in terms of physics or electronics or magnetic forces. do you know that a scientific searcher .has isolated a certain electronic sequence of wave length frequency giving rise to a precise scenery on a TV screen then he has put electrodes on the head of a person and sent the same sequence of electronic wave frequency and the man has seen the vision of exactly the same scenery without knowing anything of what has happened by this searcher . this experience is absolutely revolutionary in its multiples consequences and implications. the first implication is that the brain and mind is working the same way as the internet. neuroscience should talk about it !! yet profound silence !! man should stay ignorant for obvious reasons !! continue considering this matter .because we should rely only on our own investigating work towards the truth.....
la cybernétique peut être appliquée à n ' importe quel système. un système est un ensemble de composants organisés de facon logique et interactive dans un but de produire un certain effet bien déterminé ou de s ' y approché au maximum .la cybernétique fonctionne selon les mêmes mécanismes de fonctionnement et de développement de l " intelligence humaine .observez un animal comment il agit dans des circonstances précises et remarquez bien les étapes qu' 'il franchit a chaque changement et vous verrez que ce sont les même étapes qu' ' il franchit à chaque fois .mais a chaque fois il utilise le feed back c' est à dire les résultats qu' ' il vient juste de découvrir par son action et qu' 'il va maintenant ajouter à son expérience juste précédente pour la rendre plus performante et efficace.( ce que fait l ' homme sensé ou raisonnable mais ce n ' est pas toujours le cas certains êtres humains répètent les mêmes erreurs des quantités de fois avant de comprendre qu' ' il faut changer car pour cela il y a une petite analyse a faire. ) ainsi il avance vers de plus en plus de connaissances des choses et situations mais aussi il avance vers de plus en plus de connaissances de leur contrôle selon les buts qu' 'il désire de sorte qu ' il démontre de plus en plus de pouvoir de contrôler les situations ce qui n ' est rien d ' autre qu' un plus grand pouvoir d ' adaptation donc une plus grande intelligence .
if we are scientific people when we try to explain to others it appears to me that the very first thing that matters is to use simple clear precise words and stay logical and down to earth !!! suppress the hype that hide under the use of professional complicated and sophisticated words . psychocybernetics is the science of automatic control systems . any thing that lives and move is a system !!! as well as anything that react or respond to any form of stimulation . so any action or situation or event in contact with any other action situation event or entity or thing or person will get a reaction which is called feed back (or response ) if you keep memory of it ( this kind of reaction) next time when the same situation arise in your own life you will be better equipped to cope with it because you know something about it thanks to your past experience of it .this is how intelligence develops in all forms of biological entities or systems .this is one of the most important law of the whole universe and it applies everywhere and it explains almost anything here on earth and in all galaxies and stars scientific people call it the law of cause and effect . in spiritual circles they say the law of karma. many spiritual people still don't know that it is the same law that scientific people use always and daily the law of cause and effect. if they knew this information it will give them much more confidence in their work and researches and also more credibility in their philosophy Buddha have been using it as well as Einstein !!! this is the great point of convergence where 2 great ideologies of the world meet (for celebration only at the TOP !!!) materialism and spiritualism !!!because there is only one world for and with ONE GOD !!! the universal operating force and intelligence !!!
It seems like aside from the good history lesson there is a political bias implicit in this video. What does first-, second-order, or management cybernetics have to do with democracy? You even say that it is currently applied in a pyramidal system. If it is not being applied properly, then how does one apply it properly?
I think the video is telling us that nation-states, some of which are democracies but most of which are not, are institutions that are not well-suited to govern the planet. We've outgrown them. And yet they channel political forces into a self-reinforcing cycle of polarization, expropriation, inflation and war.
Yes, I read Designing Freedom when it was first published. I then bought "Platform for Change" in 1975. I have read nearly all Beer's books through the years. I am now chairperson of my local Liberal Democrat constituency party. I will be using my position to market/publicise the necessity for government to re-design the components and the system architecture of the legal and economic systems as an integrated whole that maximises the citizen's autonomy.
how is that working out
Worth taking a few minutes to understand today better.
Thank you for all your work :)
Thanks for watching. Share with others.
I don't understand how democratic, participative networks are an emergent property of management cybernetics. seems very idealistic. where is the application of this aside from the ivory tower ?
I'm studying complexity in business organizations. The first half of the course was systems thinking. The second half of this course is complex adaptive systems. Your video on cybernetics gave insightful meaning to the science of cybernetics; it was very helpful. Thank You!
Principa cybernetica already ?
Oh wait 9yrs ago
Thank you for preserving this and putting it out here :D
Wonderful work, thank you.
Systems of business and governments currently marginalize stakeholders. The theory of Cybernetics is a potential theory to open up pathways to stakeholders to allow these components of systems to resonate more fully but we need more use cases than theories. Decentralizing the web through the Solid Framework, Decentralizing AI, and the work Vivienne Ming is doing through Socos Labs are a few examples. How many more examples are out of there of people working on ideas to build more resonant systems? Time to create excitement around use cases to validate the theories which will drive more use cases!!! Thanks for sharing.
Cybernetics is a great tools for removing "substitute of knowledge" such as norms, ethics, and culture.
Yet the world is colder and heating itself.
Great video, thanks^^
Hello, just asking, in 20:26 entropy is in mathematics category. Isn't that in physics category? Or something I missed to misunderstood? Thank you very much
Javier Livas Do you have a copy of this presentation in pdf form? You list all the disciplines that are a part of the whole. Do you have these in a list form?
I find that the plans for many large structure and technology seem like the organs in the body; and when I learnt about DNA, genetics and radiation I found that there must be way to intermingle machines with biology; and this idea made me consider things like machine that can break down material, even DNA and restructure them, and this made me consider if gamma radiations could be reused.
I wondered how much energy is created when a atoms detach and reattach to one another.
In a sense I found there is no real difference physically between the environment, animals and machines.
Which made me re-think about cybernetics and that real living cybernetic organism could be developed and redefine what biotechnology is.
In the end, every organic entity has a material body. The problem is that they are very complex. This sets a limit to our knowledge of how to re-create life.
maybe but look at any diagrams for buildings or reactors and you begin to see something that already could be used as a organ from a greater machine; for instance proposed fusion reactors; I think we may be further than we comprehend. But I think we as humn can also see ourselfs as the biological components of a machine also
I'm really interested in artificial wombs, digestive systems, and wonder why we just don't get a machine to generation haploid cell such as sperm rather than rely on nuclear transfer for cloning- surely we can easily transfer the art of the body to a biotechnological machine by now.
I also wondered if we could integrate skins and technology that like bacteria merge with our body even replacing the skin or components in our bones; and transform the body.
I find biotechnologist do not really have the technological skills to produce such ideas but cybernetics seems closer to those ideas and ideals.
I have just tweeted that my "Freedom and Fairness by Design" is based on cybernetic insights. The design is in my head but not on paper or e-book yet.
Javier - you might be insulted, but I think this is moving in a far more ambitious direction than the VSM videos.
Well done,
Roger
andre marie ampere cybernetique 1834 the science of governing the state.
Quite right. But it has evolved to be a different scientific paradigm.
"...no systems will change man but the contrary, is the man who always try change them."--J, Krihsnamurti
Starts at 0:30
THank you, please share the link as many times as possible. Will we waiting to see what you have to say in your book. Are you familiar with Stafford Beer's DESIGNING FREEDOM? My next video will touch upon this subject. Hope you like it.
Thanks for making this!!
It's a very interesting compilation. Towards the end it's difficult to follow with so many concepts.
btw, "will save" is way too reductionist, no? ;-)
good one , ..thanks
What book / material would you suggest today to get a more in depth introduction to cybernetics?
Cybernetics? Go to Ross Ashby. Management Cybernetics go to The Fractal Organization by Patrick Hoverstadt.
the internet is a tool to share content. the real change, critical change, must translate to the brick and mortar. the best use of the internet is to connect all local organic farms with local organic businesses and independent artisans, to truly localize distribution channels, channel toxic entertainment industry content into authentic arts, theater, dance, music, crafts. to create new models of hands-on learning education, which will eliminate the need for the asinine public education system...education, entertainment, entrepreneurship--organic, wholesome, authentic models intertwined into systemic effectiveness. here, we arrive at "authentic variety: variety of creative, innovative action, the "verb way of life" and dispose of the "mechanistic, contrived, stale variety of "unnecessary, often toxic, consumer products, Veblen goods. the "noun way of life." we do not need to alter genes, but simply, our attitudes. altered attitudes in this righteous direction will be repulsed by such a desperate misguided attempt at self improvement.
Nature has no purpose, a purpose is a man-made concept, please check scientific studies in the related field. In general this video is a good introduction to Cybernetics science.
"THE PURPOSE OF A SYSTEM IS WHAT THE SYSTEM DOES." Stafford Beer.
It depends on how you define "purpose" ;)
With Javier's definition above it makes sense to me - for certain things, but more in general, if you ask a question like "What is the purpose of life?", I think the word "purpose" should have a different definition...
There is no way around the fact that the purpose of a System is what the system does. It acts just a as human would. There is no difference and both can be alive in that sense.
Agreed, but I was trying to convey that the word "purpose" can be used in different ways, for example: what is the purpose of a toothbrush? A toothbrush doesn't do anything on its own, it needs to be used by someone else, and that's what determines it's "purpose". Most people use a toothbrush to clean their teeth, but some also use them to clean their shoes and other stuff. In this sense, the purpose of an object is determined by the way it's used.
What do you think?
this matter of interconnectedness between everything in the universe has " to be " so !!! if you accept the reality that everything is energy .( all energies are different according to their vibratory rate frequency . frequency is the big KEY !!! it is like the identity card of anything !! now another
about the AND could it be a mini electronic card representing the whole identity of this living entity .just as a clone of it !!!! able to reconstitute this whole living entity . just as the seed of a plant or tree !! this hypothesis make big sense . it could be a copy of that entity which under certain conditions in combination with the energies of life could start again the process of life similar to the one that is coming from ?? as it is already commonly found in nature everywhere !!! considering that each living being has its own very specific AND. since everything is energy in its nature we must not continue to think in terms of biology or neurology but in terms of physics or electronics or magnetic forces. do you know that a scientific searcher
.has isolated a certain electronic sequence of wave length frequency giving rise to a precise scenery on a TV screen then he has put electrodes on the head of a person and sent the same sequence of electronic wave frequency and the man has seen the vision of exactly the same scenery without knowing anything of what has happened by this searcher . this experience is absolutely revolutionary in its multiples consequences and implications. the first implication is that the brain and mind is working the same way as the internet. neuroscience should talk about it !! yet profound silence !! man should stay ignorant for obvious reasons !! continue considering this matter .because we should rely only on our own investigating work towards the truth.....
Estonia's electorate now votes through the internet. Probably closest to absolute democracy and managament cybernetics.
Miguel MC is more about stricture than hardware or software.
Structure.
la cybernétique peut être appliquée à n ' importe quel système. un système est un ensemble de composants organisés de facon logique et interactive dans un but de produire un certain effet bien déterminé ou de s ' y approché au maximum .la cybernétique fonctionne selon les mêmes mécanismes de fonctionnement et de développement de l " intelligence humaine .observez un animal comment il agit dans des circonstances précises et remarquez bien les étapes qu' 'il franchit a chaque changement et vous verrez que ce sont les même étapes qu' ' il franchit à chaque fois .mais a chaque fois il utilise le feed back c' est à dire les résultats qu' ' il vient juste de découvrir par son action et qu' 'il va maintenant ajouter à son expérience juste précédente pour la rendre plus performante et efficace.( ce que fait l ' homme sensé ou raisonnable mais ce n ' est pas toujours le cas certains êtres humains répètent les mêmes erreurs des quantités de fois avant de comprendre qu' ' il faut changer car pour cela il y a une petite analyse a faire. ) ainsi il avance vers de plus en plus de connaissances des choses et situations mais aussi il avance vers de plus en plus de connaissances de leur contrôle selon les buts qu' 'il désire de sorte qu ' il démontre de plus en plus de pouvoir de contrôler les situations ce qui n ' est rien d ' autre qu' un plus grand pouvoir d ' adaptation donc une plus grande intelligence .
THis method of successive approximation I call cybernetic logic, others call it circular causality.
if we are scientific people when we try to explain to others it appears to me that the very first thing that matters is to use simple clear precise words and stay logical and down to earth !!! suppress the hype that hide under the use of professional complicated and sophisticated words . psychocybernetics is the science of automatic control systems . any thing that lives and move is a system !!! as well as anything that react or respond to any form of stimulation . so any action or situation or event in contact with any other action situation event or entity or thing or person will get a reaction which is called feed back (or response ) if you keep memory of it ( this kind of reaction) next time when the same situation arise in your own life you will be better equipped to cope with it because you know something about it thanks to your past experience of it .this is how intelligence develops in all forms of biological entities or systems .this is one of the most important law of the whole universe and it applies everywhere and it explains almost anything here on earth and in all galaxies and stars scientific people call it the law of cause and effect . in spiritual circles they say the law of karma. many spiritual people still don't know that it is the same law that scientific people use always and daily the law of cause and effect. if they knew this information it will give them much more confidence in their work and researches and also more credibility in their philosophy Buddha have been using it as well as Einstein !!! this is the great point of convergence where 2 great ideologies of the world meet (for celebration only at the TOP !!!) materialism and spiritualism !!!because there is only one world for and with ONE GOD !!! the universal operating force and intelligence !!!
It seems like aside from the good history lesson there is a political bias implicit in this video. What does first-, second-order, or management cybernetics have to do with democracy? You even say that it is currently applied in a pyramidal system. If it is not being applied properly, then how does one apply it properly?
I think the video is telling us that nation-states, some of which are democracies but most of which are not, are institutions that are not well-suited to govern the planet. We've outgrown them. And yet they channel political forces into a self-reinforcing cycle of polarization, expropriation, inflation and war.
Descriptions. Over described. Service’s and connections...
I appreciate any comments, good or bad.
I love your work Javier and it’s valuable information.