The Big Debate S12E05 | Have we dealt with racism in South Africa?
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- Опубліковано 5 чер 2024
- As the votes are being counted, we look back at the last 15 years of our democracy and the racism debates on The Big Debate over the years.
Thembekile Mrototo hosts guests including Ayanda Sishi-Wigzell, Jackie Shandu, Lexi, Zethu Gqola, Mark Banks, Gabriel Crouse and Bothale Nompumelelo.
MY VOICE IS NOT LAND..YOU CANT COLONIZE IT- LEXI.....YOH🙆🏾♂
So cringe 😬
That Was Wow Bar🔥
Just victim mentality showcasing itself 😊
@@hlamulokapplacid2326 Its performative mos def.
A big fat wow
Im here because of Tiktok 😂❤
Saaame!
And??
Same 😂😂😂 She cooked him
Me too
Gabriel is so rine deaf. He cares too much about being right instead of having humanity and empathy
that white privilige for you
Facts matter.
Stop being in your feelings.
It’s time to do it ourselves and stop looking for validation or help, by any means necessary within the constitution✊🏾✊🏾
There's always that one person in uncomfortable conversations who ALWAYS confirms why that conversations is happening! Gabriel is he on this one; what's worse is that he represents thousands more like him.
The best takeaways for me from this conversation are everything Lexi said. Otherwise, until a real disruption to white power happens, privilege will continue to remain a racial issue.
"until a real disruption to white power happens" If ever that happen you might be without a job and a future and then you will blame us again.
This debate doesn't fill one up with hope.
Come to the NW and WC and FS you'll experience apartheid. Aluta continua
You mean Aloota.
@@markwinter7511 🤣😂🤣 both
@@BantuLionessI'm from Bloemfontein and there racism there is blatant.
This debate is so uneven and unfair, this is literally a 6 v 1. They should have had equal people on the opposite side of the debate as opposed to Gabriel against 6 other people.
😹😹 i thought i was the only one who saw the unfairness even when he spoke when the girl was speaking they were so fast to defend her but when he was speaking and other guy interrupted him it was not a problem😹 lol
It isn't fair. It seems to be afew against 1. Ur right
Maybe his companions refused to show up because they can’t stand the guilt of racism and apartheid 😂😂😂
Hai its unfair indeed at least if there were 3 whites and 3 blacks
They probably invited more white people but they chose not to come cause a lot of them simply would rather avoid race topic. They have ignorant attitudes like this guy “apartheid: I wasn’t there”, “racism: Zuma is the most racist man in SA”
Racism is more of an Ecominc system than a social, but alsp it has social effects like any other economic system
it's both
Where on Statssa's website do we see the stats he is talking about?
Saying sorry won’t take anything away from saying sorry what do you mean sorry does nothing ,
That “whoooo” from Zethu😂😂😂
I agree with the fact that history is part of our heritage and needs to be told honestly. However, my humble question is why are we not writing and publishing the books, and since we are in charge of government, why has the education system not changed 🤔
Debating , Politics etc etc won’t solve problems we facing as blacks. Only way to move away from all this is to create our own system silently. Only big issue we need to solve is reclaiming our land, the rest is easy & can be done silently.
Bra...you speaking to my soul. I generally say this on my social circles and family. Reason why I started a family business 7 years ago
@luciferissatan... Reclaiming the land will remain a far fetched dream, unless and until we see the EFF in government!
yes it won't directly solve our problems but it is a good way to educate people, hear others perspectives, learn something etc. and education is SO important when wanting to change systems.
I really would of enjoyed listening to more diversity in thought from the panellists. It seemed like a 6 vs 1 match-up from the producers, which played itself out in the most predictable way. This debate seemed not only in its editing but questions, camera angles and much more as if its trying to drive a preconceived agenda as opposed to allowing the debate to naturally flow. We need critical debate in this country which allows people to bring not only their lived experience to the table but the facts as well (not one or the other). The audience/listener must decide based on the merit of the argument where they stand, not be guided in a certain direction based on this 6 vs 1 match-up. I'm excluding the elderly white gentleman, it's important to bring lighter notes to such serious debates, but it seemed as if he urked on the side of caution as opposed to stating any clear opinion, further emphasising preconceived schools of thought. I like the concept of the Big Debate and have watched for many years, but the producers and Directors of the show need to do better, there are numerous examples locally and around the world that showcase excellent political debates. Vang tips.
While diversity in thought is definitely not balanced, the participants do somewhat reflect the South African population in relation to the proportionality of racial representation. There is an Indian perspective that is missing, though, in that regard.
But if you're referencing diverse thinking in relation to people's political positions (I.e. left, centre, right), the conversation could have definitely benefitted further.
But does Gabriel want the majority of rich people to be white in a country that is majority black?
It doesn’t make sense. It’s like he has issues with seeing stats that say black are the majority ANYTHING when black is the majority race. Is 1+1 not 2
Imagine! The people in poverty must celebrate that we have a majority black people in high income brackets, in a vast sea of black poverty. Only he knows the stats because he said them😂
think the point was that once you've got majority black people in all the highest income brackets you can't speak of the economy being in white hands. he said this is good news, which it surely is. poverty is still the main problem and the vast majority of poor people are black. the question is: is racism to blame and what are the best solutions?
@@crrrimson The economy is still in white hands despite the number of black people in high income brackets, capital is still concentrated in white hands. Per capita income for white households still looks like a different country vs black households. The amount of wealth passed down from the market distortions of apartheid still disproportionately benefit white people. The land and property wealth appreciation from the end of apartheid still disproportionately benefited white people, but now you want market prices for properties that were acquired through the market distortions and legislative crimes of apartheid. It may be a good thing that a few black people are building wealth, but the economic justice question does not go away.
Gabriel doesn't get the seriousness of the matter and he can't even read the message in the faces of our people,in his mind we are fools still
The Germany refrance is the one I’ve been waiting for.
Gabriel is allergic to listening to full sentences😂😂
He is allergic to false information.
@Broooooo-ww7hw you too, seem to be allergic to courtesy. The shame you bring to your parents.
Why did you not include a Khoisan voice in the debate?
They did. Because Kwe people (Khoisan as you call them) are black.
Khoisan is not a race, whatever "race" is.
@@katlegodidit The conversation was steered towards land ownership of racial groups. The aboriginal population of South Africa may not distinguish themselves in a race name, but a discussion of land surely involves their voice also. And these panelists partook on a previous episode, so it could be anticipated.
@@wjcvwcrsathey were represented by Africans because their are also Africans.
@@wjcvwcrsa "aboriginal population" - you are very confused. But it's understandable.
I encourage every black person to go through the public procurement bill. If it is enacted as is, the experience now with economic divides would just worsen. We have made our voice heard, analyze the bill and make yours heard because the bill is supposedly intended to empower black people
Homie said “get off the crack pipe man”😭🤣💀
No repentance no justice no reparations we just kicked the can down the road.
I wish that weak leader was still alive to witness his mistakes. The same thing that Ramafriggingphosa is busy doing right now.
Nelson Mandela is the reason we have all the problems we have now when it comes to inequality. A very weak minded leader he was. We see a duplicate of him in Ramafriggingphosa, busy making naive decisions in the name of unity.
Exactly, he protected the WMC, same with Ramapoesa
I need a break inbetween watching this episode 😭 my @nger doesn't allow me to keep watching anddd breathing as I'm listening to Gabriel 😭😂😂
Having said that, this was a great Pannell 🙌 thank you for this.
Where is the crowd? 😅 Why did the interviewer not mention why there is no audience on today's debate?
My thoughts exactly, I mean it's called the "BIG" debate for a reason.😅
Okay I also think it's because of the topic that is being discussed, the last time the Big debate discussed race a long time ago, people almost started throwing hands, some from the coloured/Khoi-san community stormed out of the event.. Live.
@mlungisimthanti8017 lol that was ten years ago ...let's see where society as a whole is now when it comes to this topic. I do agree with you that that could be the reason though.
Dear Lexi needs to be corrected, not all kullid tribespeople box themselves in, when one reads comments online of black people saying kullids are products of rape, its a microcosm of what many think. Some kullids being descendants of the Khoisan/Bushmen/Griekwa ect. does not receive recognition. The descendants of the First Nation are the most marginalized.
You do realise that kwe (khoisan) people are black right...😂
@@nikitascoble4363 yes, did I say any where in my comment that they where not and did I say kullids are not black.
They refer to themselves simply as Africans, and so too all South Africans. They reject differentiation.
Khoisan are black people
Grikwa in direct translation means “children of whites” so I doubt they were made from “love”
This is why we won't go anywhere as a country. We can't even speak in one voice 🤦🏽♂️. At least the debates are taking place so there's an ounce of hope
Underrated channel make this known
Numbers can be manipulated Gabriel
StatsSA: 😳 why am I in it?
Is Institute of Race Relations (what a name!) proud and okay to be represented by Gabriel in public discussion?
Given that South Africa consists of more than just black,colors, and whites, wouldn't it be appropriate to have a race conversation with as much racial diversity? Where are Indians? Where are khoi people? I'm a black person, but to have a majority of black people in a conversation that is more than just about them is not good.
On another matter, the idea that black people cannot be racist is such a convenient redefinition of racism for black people. The interesting is that the average person definition is the complete opposite. This is a get-out-of jail-free card academics have come up with to excuse black people from the racism which they might have, like any race of people in the world. Like I said, it's a get out jail card!
What's racism Charles??
@@MrLechesa
According to the Oxford dictionary:
Racism
noun
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.
I'm so glad there are some of us still left with common sense!
Khoi people are black
Gaberial “ I’m not sorry because I didn’t live it “ spoken like a true white men with privilege,you don’t see that you have privilege from what you lived
GABRIEL was grilled during the DUBULA IBHUNU trial under cross examination by Julius Malema"s counsel
How do you forgive someone who never asked for forgiveness, scrap that we coming for land, till we come together and discuss like equals
You had the land before the whites came. What did you do? NOTHING
Excellent debate! Gabriel is not make sure
My voice is not land!!!you can not colonize it 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤lord👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾✊🏾✊🏾✊🏾✊🏾
i have been watching this debates and as a non south african but an african i must say i'm learning about southafrica
In Black but this debate is BS
Please elaborate
@@MsRoriT he's a clown
I am tired too to see our people trying to explain themselves to the oppressors who doesn't even care, but one day black child will be left with nothing but to fight the oppressor physically 😢😢😢
Just a question. If Shaka Zulu took land from other people (therefore it wasn't originally his), shouldn't we give it to those rightful owners as well? How far back should the question of land go?
I agree, South Africa's history does not start in the apartheid era, but we are not ready for this conversation
Afrikaaners suffered the same fate under the Brittish rule. They chose to overcome this system by empowering themselves.
I say all the way back to as far back as possible. Justice and redress must address historical and current issues. For example, while state capture is often associated with Zuma, its roots lie in the apartheid government, continuing through Mandela's CODESA, which granted contracts and power to former apartheid individuals and companies to control the state and its resources and also for personal benefit.
@sifx.z1524 If we take it as far as possible then only Khoisan people should own the land. No Zulu's etc.
I agree. And as a Zulu Person does that mean I'm entitled to land in Congo since we descended from them? So all Afrikaners now own Germany and the Netherlands ?😂😂😂
All of the natural resources of south Africa the gold mines and Dimond mines all are still own and control by white south Africa and until the balance of power shifts very little real change will ever take place for black south Africa
The economy of South Africa will never growth unless the economy is being made inclusive for all
South Africa has a very serious collective racial/apartheid trauma and its going to be very difficult to move forward trying to look back and rectify the past! The issue is how do we move forward without holding ourselves back?!
Forgiveness has nothing to do with the outher person or white people, it's about ourselves deciding to let it go and move forward because at the end of the day, we are still living in pain and it only affects our own lifes.
People who voted DA niyabona nisifaka ekakeni ngobu dom benu😢
It's your father who is dom
Are you not over generalizing by your assumptions, and what did this debate have to do with political parties? The people wanted change and democracy allows for such. People votw for what they think is the best party or individual to lead the country for the better. Just like you voted for what you think is the best for country.
All this talk about land restitution but no Khoisan opinion. The only coloured on this panel is parroting “black” talking points unconvincingly so. Lexi is not a true representation of the average coloured identity and political opinion in South Africa. Finish and klaar.
They were nowhere to be found during apartheid
@@thabisongwekazi3514Who was nowhere to be found during apartheid?
Khoisan
@@thabisongwekazi3514 Nonsense. The Khoisan have been fighting back against both European and Bantu forces for centuries. When the Dutch first arrived in the Cape, they found the Khoikhoi there who resisted, fought them and are still existing today in spite of the genocidal acts from colonisation through apartheid.
Bantu people were nowhere to be found in South Africa when the Khoisan occupied the land first. That’s what you meant to say.
Nonsense is the fiction you portray as history. The account of the San fighting the Portuguese at the cape of good hope and later the Dutch is correct. Fiction is that we were not here at the time. As for the San fighting for this land till today is another story. Let us refer to recent history, Name ten, and San struggles veterans
Gaberial saying the black unemployment is double ,who is the majority of this country?? Critical thinking
OK, but why does the host keep disturbing
49:17 Preach Ayanda!!!
Too much editing, but good debate
Gabriel!!! We are not the same bro 🤣
They are not like us - Kendrick Lamar
Why is this a 20v1?😂
im black but the Ayanda was bulling Gabriel 💔
I agree. It's not ok to invalidate anyone's opinions thoughts beliefs or facts when given opportunity to express them. This is a big problem in rsa.
Where's the audience?
I love the show big time🎉🎉🎉🎉M very proud of you are black sisters❤❤❤❤❤❤❤That's why i always love baby girls❤❤❤❤Who understood life n reality
They don't like facts Gabriel
BEE might have had good intentions. However, it only increased fronting and corrupt practices and affirmed the multinationals' control of the economy as they can also be accredited at BEE level 1, which is totally opposed to the original intention of empowering a black entrepreneur/ business previously excluded from the economy 😳
I LOVE ALL THE AFRIKAN PPL WHO SPOKE HERE.... BLACK POWER!!!!!!!!!!
Video starts rolling at 2:50 ❤
Well I hope DA voters are happy with their decision 😑
You could who the wokies are just by the introduction of the panel. Lol
"Have we dealt with racism in South Africa?" This is the wrong question, it comes across as begging to live in a non-racial country, this cannot be as the racists are a minority. A good question should explore how the posture of the majority will change if racism doesn't dial it down. Another question should explore who are the racist, is it the ordinary minority folks?? who is the market?
Oh, Ayanda! 🤌🏾
I STAN ✊🏾
Bathong le schemile Morena jesu
God this was painful to watch. The victim complex of some of these people lol.. i am a coloured. My mother comes from a black and coloured background. My father from a coloured background. I come from an impoverished area, overwhelmed with crime.
I had to claw and work my way up to where i am. These people are living in the past. All the opportunities are there. All you have to do is work and work and more work. If you stay focussed on your goals, plan your family and behave responsibly, nothing is impossible for you. You can blame whites for your circumstances all damn day long, and it will get you absolutely nothing.
Today i have whites, coloureds and blacks working under me and we all respect each other. Yes, our ancestors had a painful past and yes, a lot of injustices happened in the past but what does a victim mentality get you now?
These people need to stop living in the past.
"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds"
-Bob Marley
I don’t think they are disputing the fact that you can make it out of impoverished circumstances, it’s more the fact that, like you said “I had to claw and work my way up to where I am.” Why should it be so difficult for people of colour to make it to a comfortable lifestyle, whereas white people are just born into it. This is all due to the fact that the systems that were set in place during apartheid weren’t entirely demolished. The playing field was not levelled to the point where alles was equally accessible for all races.
Yes, there are opportunities, but do you realise how for people of colour, we depend on opportunities to make it… whereas they are fighting that white people are born with a silver platter in their faces of choices, rather than working hard for opportunities.
Opportunity in itself means “a set of circumstances that makes it possible to do something”… white people’s livelihoods aren’t based on circumstances, it’s all privilege.
@@zwivhuyaramakuela3745I think that after the end of the Apartheid, the wealth of RICH whites should have been confiscated and redistributed to all poor people who were overwhelmingly blacks. White people in SA have on average a much easier life because they're much richer.
Bell Pottinger, Zuma and the Gupta's really divided us, we getting along just fine!
Gabriel is giving "I'm white and I say so" 😏
35:25 this right here. We need to teach the full true story of history. Tell it from the beginning.
Definitely a 6 vs 1 debate… so unfair. In this country majority rules and majority is black.
Jesus out here making enemies with these StatsSA points😭😭😭
Can someone please explain white power in an South African context?!!
These data is just a setup but its not a real reflection of who owns the economy
I want to hear more about those Chinese airplanes and the billions that he said they were making. How did that happen?
Yoi...long story but in short, what the Chinese are allegedly doing, is what they have done. They complaining because someone differently from their skin tone is doing it
@@hlanganisambatha614its not that they "have done" it, they're still very much at it as they have been doing it comfortably so for the past +30 years, they hate and are terrified of what China represents because they realise that SA, along with many other African countries, is now pivoting towards China economically and shifting away from the west, and so what this means is that they (the conquerers from europe) will inevitably be forced to share the spoils of their conquest with these people, and you know that no clonial group would ever willingly share what it has taken at the barrel of the gun with the conquered, and so they see the Chinese as a great threat to all the wealth that they, with the assitance of the collective west and the collaboration of some black politcal pawns, have locked up within themselves at the exclusion of the majority of natives of this country
Why not bring in black people who have apposing opinions?
Zethu usually has balanced views but this Gabriel guy is veeery triggering.
What a great excuse for not progressing ones self. So easy.
I love this 😭🤍
The small debate
😂😂😂nice
As long as we don’t own our things as African people racism will continue
Yoh these Black people kodwa!!!!!
Gabrial: Give black people title deads so that they can become wealthy.
Jackie Shandu: NO!!
Ayi Mr Stats SA😂
The brutality currently in this country is far worse than anything experienced during apartheid
🤡
You are clearly a yt person.
@Peachcobler22 yes and proud of it as well.
@@johannel9982Dear proud white person, stop boring the SA masses about how great SA was in the past. Your great upbringing and wonderful SA experience was built on the subjugation and exploitation of non whites. Apartheid brutality was far worse and to state otherwise is insane.
@Peachcobler22 tell that to the families of 80+ people being murdered today and the 18 million unemployed.
The white guy is arguing with facts, while the rest of the panelists are arguing with emotions...
You are commenting from emotion, does that mean that your opinion is fruitless and useless?
His so-called facts are untrue.
Lies are facts nowadays
@@zm_real03Yes.
Jackie Shandu ✊️✊️
Anc us giving these people a vote
Lex's numbers please
Gabriel, this guy has selective hearing 😔
This is the land of the khoi and San people, if you go way back we are the first we are aboriginal people ,why do black people wanto claim South Africa there's
Yhoo Gabriel with Stats SA hayikhona he's not human he is a Ai he can't relate to reality
no SA didn't deal with racism , we say we are non racial country but we still have a place that is known as 'white country' in South Africa ... we can't have such kind of place in our country
Blk people in SA are more racist than white people, in fact overall they are more racist…
I hear many comments talking about rightful owner of the land , they saying khoisans are rightful and my question is before khoisan who was before them and before them who was before them , and another thing about Zulu 's being from somewhere in the middle or east or west africa what evidence they have or it was a way of trying to create this confusion so that no one will have a cliam , more like the story of satan and jesus , satan potraid as red/brown person and jesus is white
It's now boring to me without I crowd
Its not for entertainment
Hence, I said 'to me'. Angaz noma nawe usu included yin lapho
@@msbdakilla2411 rest
Nothing to learn here. It sound scripted
Shame on me amen to PA salute we koisan mense van Africa
Look at our cricket they say we all black then we have Indians and coloured players then 1 black Rabada then u hear thrs only 1 black player we need more lol
ANC sell outs ...Scared of white monopoly Ruperts😢
This is not a debate.
Gabrial reflects the attitudes of white SA. Apartheid: “I wasn’t there”, racism : “Malema is the most racist man in SA”.
I definitely DO NOT side with Gabriel or agree with a lot of what he said, but this debate was not balanced. Everyone was against him and that comedian guy was not fit for that debate. He was just scared to say anything that would set everyone against him. They should have had another white person who actually comments on these issues there.
Ayanda, and the two ladies in pink have an attitude towards that Gabriel guy and to be honest, Ayanda only has a problem when Gabriel interrupts. When other people interrupt him, she has nothing to say because he's the enemy.😂
I agree with what the Black ladies and the gent said, but the ladies (except the lady with the doek) were just too emotional to have a constructive debate in my opinion. 😊😂
It's so relieving finding a free thinker in a comment section full of clones and regurgitators 😁