Some notes from some local CdA pilots...I know plenty of CA pilots who have moved into the area...Juan "1. The Brooks Seaplane Beaver was flying on the LEFT side of the lake. Most pilots are taught since primary students to fly on the right side of rivers, mountain passes (unless strong winds dictate otherwise), and Lakes. Neil, the Beaver pilot, was corrected on this just two days before the accident when flying his mechanic (also a seaplane pilot). Contrary to the NTSB map, the accident occurred much closer to the west shoreline - right side for 206, left for Beaver. 2. The Brooks operation did not use radios, at all, ever. If both planes had been communicating on 122.8 (122.9, although shown on the chart, is not used), the accident probably would’t have happened. 3. If the seaplane (not sure about the 206) would have had wig-wag landing lights, strobes, and all other lights on, they may have seen each other in time to avoid. 4. You are right, Beavers do have blind spots, but I suspect proper scanning procedures weren’t being used, at least by the Beaver. How do I know? My wife and I were flying the morning of the crash and were almost run over by the Beaver. No ADS-B, no response to our radio calls, no acknowledgement of our wing-wagging. If I hadn’t dived, it could have been us that day. In my opinion, we have what I call the “California Bush Pilot” attitude here in North Idaho. We have many pilots moving from California, and other states with much more restricted airspace, who now think, because the airspace here is uncontrolled, that means “out of control.” Screw the radio, screw proper pattern entries, screw the rules, “I’m a friggin’ Bush Pilot now!” "
See and avoid is job 1 no matter the vehicle. The transponder with mode C was a great tool for the ATC network provided it was turned on or not accidentally left in standby mode. This next generation of ADS-B and TCAS are wonderful tools but they offer false security. Now we are dealing with unmanned drones and driver-less vehicles. We have cool new tools in the cockpit that many pilots are distractedly focused inside the aircraft fiddling with including cellphones and cameras. Texting and operating all equate to the same of not keeping eyes scanning outside the mode of transportation vehicle. VFR is VFR assuming the right of ways and flying with eyes inside the cockpit is beyond stupid. Cool tools don't make a captain, driver or a pilot. There is no substitute for always keeping eyes systematically scanning outside with seeing and avoiding traffic. If there is, we will just be in a simulator. If you couldn't operate the old system you will be hurt relying on the new!
This seems a significant comment. This isn't the sort of thing a bunch of Idaho natives might want to go public on, so as to avoid stirring animosity with the CaliFugitives. Some non-vested 3rd party like Juan, however, might suavely step in as an investigative reporter (or whatever) and expand on this topic. Of course, the cowboys & hotdogs in question are probably the last ones to watch videos like this....
FLARM saved me around 10 years ago. I was in a glider and another glider was directly heading towards me. When FLARM issued the highest collision alert we both flew evasive maneuvers and this was the first time I could see him. Time from first traffic information till highest alert level was maybe 5 seconds, so it goes really fast when heading directly towards each other.
Juan gives the best airline crash analysis on the internet. He is trying hard to work himself out of that role by explaining the causes of these crashes so thoroughly. Here's hoping he runs out of material someday.
The Cessna traveling point to point and not landing probably should have been required to get up to the odd/even altitudes and not allowed to mix with traffic. In scenic area staying low and sight seeing while traveling probably is the rule and not the exception.
Juan's accident investigation hones in like a missle, right to the salient factor, the usually glaring and several cause(s) of all these crashes, incidents, mishaps, mysteries and mayhem, . . . Stay tuned. Ya cannot make up better, more dramatic stories. (and maybe save countless lives, liberty and the pursuit of happiness at altitude while we're doing it too.) 😃
From what I’ve seen the USA has an outstanding safety culture . The amount of flights per year reflects the accident rate. Well done NTSB AND THE SAFETY CULTURE. KEEP IT STRONG
For those that don't know the area I want to add to what Juan was saying about the congestion. 25 miles to the west is Spokane WA. Over there you have Fairchild Air Force Base, International Airport, and another active runway. Also to the south of Spokane are fields which are some of those can be crop dusted by plane or helicopter. Then there is a lot of grass seed raised in the area so at certain times of the year they burn those fields off so you get a lot of smoke. Then in a 100 mile radius of Spokane there is another dozen dirt fields (lot of those were put in place because of crop dusting) that range in no activity to some activity not including other paved runways that are used primarily for personal use aircraft with a lot of hangers and tie downs. I'm not a pilot or even in Juan's league of understanding on how things work but it is obvious that there is a lot of uncontrolled air space with a lot of randoms that can pop up with no warning. This is an area where you need to watch were your going very carefully.
So true, a friend of mine flies GA out of Felts Field and has commented more than once on the amount of traffic in the area. I worked close to Felts for 3 years and the skies on nice days were constantly filled with small planes.
Some piddly points of no real importance ... Fairchild (AKA SKA) and Spokane International Airport (AKA GEG) are just to the west of Spokane. Felts Field (AKA SFF) is just to the north of part of Spokane. Here's a link to part of a sectional that covers the area: < vfrmap.com/?type=vfrc&lat=47.619&lon=-117.535&zoom=10&api_key=763xxE1MJHyhr48DlAP2qQ > There's no question that there's a lot of traffic in the area to and from these airports (including from time to time float planes that take off from the Spokane River just to the north of Felts Field). However the big grass growing operations that I am aware of are on the Idaho side of Rathdrum Prairie, to the north of Coeur d'Alene, and they haven't burned their stubble for years now as the smoke tended to drift into Spokane where temperature inversions had a habit of keeping the smoke plastered over Spokane. I don't recall much crop dusting ever being done there, but I could be wrong. To the south of Spokane is the Palouse which is great wheat farm land (Washington is the fourth largest wheat producing state) and while I don't recall much crop dusting being done there either, I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't have happened much closer than Spangle which is about 20 miles south of Spokane, just outside the Class C Fairchild/Spokane/CDA airspace. The Palouse is basically a bunch of huge sand dunes blown in from one of the ice ages, not flat farm land that others may think of in the Midwest. The huge rolling mounds coupled with fairly good wind (there's a reason why there's a windmill farm near Rosalia) makes it hard for me to believe that there's ever been all that much crop dusting done there. Even if it does happen, I've spent time on the Palouse and to say that the airspace over the Palouse is "congested" seems more than a little bit of a stretch to me except perhaps for certain times of the year. In short, I think you're overstating the amount of "congestion" in the area outside of the Spokane area.
I fault the 206 pilot. He lived in Lewiston and was well aware of those two sight seeing planes that operate out of the Northend of the lake . Common sense tells you they fly low around the lake. He should’ve apprised himself of their schedule and patterns. He flew right over their berth and could see the Beaver was gone. Without knowing where the Beaver was or making radio contact with the Beaver he should’ve maintained 2,000 ft AGL or altitude higher than the Beaver’s customary operational altitudes. I think the people thankfully perished instantly or were rendered unconscious. Airline, commercial and private pilots combined have led thousands of people like lambs to the slaughter.
@@jmwSeattle > I fault the 206 pilot. You are entitled to your opinion, but I at least will wait for what the NTSB has to say. Having said that, although I am not a pilot and don't play one on TV, I find the justification you give to support your opinion to be ... less than compelling. > He lived in Lewiston and was well > aware of those two sight seeing planes > that operate out of the Northend of > the lake. > Common sense tells you they fly low > around the lake. Assuming that the 206 driver was aware of float plane base (and I have no reason to doubt that he was), so what? Seriously. ISTM that you are basically implying that the float plane operator had no responsibility to see and avoid or to announce his location/intention(s) to others who might be flying around the area just because he was there (based on the lake) first, which to my uneducated way of thinking is just silly. > He should’ve apprised himself of their > schedule and patterns. He flew right > over their berth and could see the > Beaver was gone. Without knowing where > the Beaver was or making radio contact > with the Beaver he should’ve maintained > 2,000 ft AGL or altitude higher than > the Beaver’s customary operational > altitudes. Again, so what? They were both operating in uncontrolled airspace. You seem to be suggesting that some users are more entitled to use such airspace as they please compared to others. If there's a notice or regulation to that effect, I'd love to hear about it, but until then, ISTM that the 206 driver had just as much right to fly below 2000ft as the Beaver driver did. And it seems to my uneducated way of thinking that the float plane operator had just as much need to make other users of the airspace aware of his presence and intentions, especially since he was carrying paying passengers. I don't know whether or not the 206 driver was monitoring the TCAF or not, but I likewise don't know that the Beaver driver was saying a word either. If you know what the Beaver driver was doing in this regard, I'd love to hear about that too. Care to enlighten a poor dumb non-pilot?
Sounds like a pilot who knows from experience. Obviously you never missed noticing another incoming or outgoing plane moving or you wouldn't be telling us that truth.
@@txkflier Ok so you almost got into something bad around the year I was born. This explains your insight to me. I am so happy you can tell me that story, as a flight enthusiast and RC pilot. I am so happy you are here to tell me about it. I hope you enjoy as many hours of flight as you can get.
The Lake's the salient factor in determining all the relevent CAUSES to this mid-air for sure. IMHO, Cessna pilot was imprudently flying low when his purpose was more transitional, transportation versus sightseeing. My point here is Cessna pilot should have given or afforded all concerned a better altitude to fly his route at the prescribed standard altitudes ABOVE 3000 feet to provide due additional opportunity to see other, more likely, visually undistracted and unconcerned aircraft, above sightseeing preferences BELOW 3000' and thus better see possible others coming from predictable angles and altitudes, all things considered, the intention of airspace regulation at all.
Man I ride my Road bike with strobe F & R lights on every ride even broad daylight. It gives motorists full warning of my presence - that extra margin prevents accidents. And as my Lawyer Cyclist friend says, "I'll get a 3x greater settlement to cover your medical or for your next of kin" when your bike has lights on...no Insurance Company would not pay. So sounds like flashing lights for daylight FLIGHTS or RIDES, eh ?
That picture at the end. Like a Peterbilt to the heart. I hope that the families and friends of those lost can find peace and tranquility in these difficult times. Thank you for your report, Juan.
Going into SJC with the company's 414. ATC advises us of opposing traffic at 11 o'clock, three miles. Neither Warren nor I saw the SW 37 until he was almost on top of us. Even something the size of a B-737 is almost impossible to see if it is flying straight at you. Also the closing rate is your speed plus his speed. Bad things happen really fast.
I saw the front end of a Banaza and then a Pitts within a second one day. They were headed south on different courses and I was going north, and I'd bet none of us knew the others were there until we passed each other.
Watching Air Disasters, one of the aviation experts would state "see and be seen is a misnomer". Aviation history has a large body count for mid air collisions and the big planes have TCAS now. I'm sure Juan would agree of the importance of this tool. Hopefully, the FAA will take into consideration the body count, technology improvements and listen to the NTSB to start requiring this safety equipment.
I did see once that someone referred an oncoming aircraft as being a dot the size of a fly dropping. When that dropping starts to grow wings it's when it's getting very late to evade it.
@@fyrman9092 Funny but no. It happened and was over while I was still processing it. I never saw them until they were there. By the time I figured it out I knew I was safe. Just blind luck.
In the 90's, on the first leg of my very first X-country solo, I was approaching a VOR navaid while flying VFR but was monitoring LA Center. I heard ATC essentially arguing with another pilot that he was flying at the incorrect westbound VFR altitude and was on a collision course and closing on an eastbound aircraft, same altitude that she was not talking to. The pilot kept claiming he didn't understand her (ATC) request and proceeded without correction. The back and forth went on as she demanded he immediately alter his flight path as he was in imminent danger. As a pilot in training, I was quite taken aback by the dialogue and the pilot's lack of understanding when ATC happened to mention a geographic location in her communication with said pilot and all of a sudden I realized the "other" aircraft on the collision course was ME! As Juan mentioned, the visible aspect ratio of 2 opposing Cessnas ain't squat. I was scanning like mad and suddenly, out of the central CA valley haze, I saw a dot with a skinny line over the top directly in front of me and not changing position so I immediately made an evasive maneuver to the right to "show him my wings". As I leveled, the other pilot went right by me on my left, pretty much right where I would have been and I'll never forget the look on his face...yes, it was that close. He had the look of "what are you doing here?!" as he wizzed by in a C182, all the while still not making a course correction. In obvious disgust, ATC finally terminated radar service for that pilot and went about her business with busy airspace. I immediately made a VFR Request for flight following which was accepted and when I squawked my transponder code, she was like "Oh, Hi there, it's YOU!" and she was very nice to me till I left her airspace. I learned a whole lot by the end of that day, just a couple of those things is; Flight Following is your VFR friend if their workload permits and never fly close to a VOR navaid because many others are, too. TCAS was in it's infancy for GA aircraft. A little dash mounted TCAS box was soon introduced. You gotta stay on your toes and keep your head on a swivel when flying VFR!
@@jmwSeattle But the higher precision of GPS also increases the chance of planes flying along exactly the same line and meeting in the exact same spot.
many years ago I was flying a glider at 6ooo feet above the ground when I was aware of a speck closing on me I made a 90 degree turn to the right and watched the 4 engined piston engine plane pass on my left so close I could see the crew with their heads down looking in the office. If you come across a soaring bird and you are doing 130 knots the closing speed is only 140 knots but the bird passes you like a rocket. By the way the 4 engined plane was an airforce plane a DC6 so you can tell the length of time since that important demonstration was had. Thanks for a great channel.
I spent a whole summer working on the Seattle MOHAI at the former Navy Reserve Base on Lake Union. Lake Union is an active floating airport located just north of downtown Seattle. I was alwaysed amazed to see the planes taking off and landing amongst all the other activities going on at this small lake. Boats, kiats, paddle boarders and Airplanes, Oh My! I even saw a dry dock taking on a ship there and, a native american man launching a aprox. 30ft cedar canoe he was carving out all summer.
Juan, this visual ability was taught in the military. It is easy to see objects moving ACROSS our field of vision, but hard to see objects going IN or OUT of our field of vision. I now use this information to help stay alive while motorcycling. Thanks.
Juan, A collision avoidance system which is similar to ADS-B, but does not require a transponder, is not expensive and in use in Europe, exists since 2004. It is called FLARM and very well described in Wikipedia. It is mandatory in France. In this country it is highly recommended by the Soaring Society of America (SSA) because it is better suited for aircraft normally operating close to each other like gliders climbing in the same thermal, or behind towplanes . Most helicopters in Switzerland are equipped with FLARM, because it also contains a data base of the location of wires and powerlines, which are the main cause of helicopter fatalities in the narrow valleys of the swiss Alps. The displays give similar information to what you have shown on TCAS. Audible and visual alarms are given when the predictive algorithms detect an imminent collision. The position of an aircraft is shown relative to your heading and altitude. See the article in Wikipedia for the exact details. The name is a contraction of Flieger Alarm. I mentioned this system in the comments on your prior video, where you gave a clear and detailed description of TCAS Juan, in the following reply the website for FLARM is given. You can even get a miniaturized FLARM module for your Mavic drone. Integration with ADS-B is also available. This is what you mentioned in the time mark 9:50 of your video.
From Wikipedia: FLARM obtains its position and altitude readings from an internal GPS and a barometric sensor and then broadcasts this together with forecast data about the future 3D flight track. At the same time, its receiver listens for other FLARM devices within range and processes the information received. Advanced motion prediction algorithms predict potential conflicts for up to 50 other aircraft and alert the pilot using visual and aural warnings. FLARM has an integrated obstacle collision warning system together with an obstacle database. The database includes both point and segmented obstacles, such as split power lines and cableways. Unlike conventional transponders, FLARM has low power consumption and is relatively inexpensive to purchase and install. Furthermore, conventional Airborne Collision Avoidance Systems (ACAS) are not effective in preventing light aircraft from colliding with each other as light aircraft can be close to each other without danger of collision. ACAS would issue continuous and unnecessary warnings about all aircraft in the vicinity, whereas FLARM only issues selective warnings about collision risks. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLARM
I have a version of of ADS-B in my DJI Mavic Air 2 drone -- they call it Airsense but it is a version of ADS-B. While flying the drone, I have about 3 hours flying it so far, I've had numerous indications on my FPV screen about aircraft in the area and usually I can here the aircraft as well providing additional confirmation of its proximity. It's useful to have this even in a drone as it alerts you to a threat and makes you more aware. If they can install ADS-B in a drone that cost $800USD there's no reason a similar system couldn't be mandated for ALL aircraft.
@@kramrle I own a DJI Mavic Air 2 drone as well. It's included from DJI (OEM, at no extra charge) and is ADS-B "IN" only (the FAA does not allow ADS-B "OUT" in drones). I love the feature and is one of the reasons I bought the drone. Of course not all gen av are required to have ADS-B installed as Juan pointed out (which is a shame IMO). The Mavic Air 2 drone only costs $799! The drone alerts you to aircraft with ADS-B "OUT" in the local area.
@@kramrle The version they sell in the USA has it stock, but in other parts of the world its not yet an option. This is thete first consumer drone that has it, but I expect all but the smallest models will have it going forward. As has been pointed out it is only ADSB in at the moment, but I can see 2way ADSB in a few years and maybe mandatory.
ADSB saved me from a mid air against a bizzjet flying at 320 kt head on (jet was at the wrong altitude 7500 heading west ) . Lucky the i pad alerted me to the threat.
This is precisely the sort of content which UA-cam should support, in every way possible. Demonetizing these meticulous forensic examinations of aircraft incidents, makes no sense at all. They are of interest not only to aviators, but to anyone else who appreciates the high quality and professionalism exhibited in Juan's video reports. They are the gold standard by which all other aircraft accident reporting will be judged.
Best tip my father ever gave me (Maj USAF F-105D out of Korat '68, 34th TFS). Collision course head on, target does not move across the windscreen. I have always searched for dots forward, getting larger, quickly. Thanks for pointing that out Juan.
Thanks JB...I appreciate all you do. I can see the frustration you have regarding what should have been avoided especially when carrying more than one passenger with a plane for hire.
Thanks for the informative report JB. Sounds similar to the AIS system in the commercial marine environment. Commercial boats require it, but not recreational. We have AIS receiving on our boat, but not transponding. It's useful to avoid commercial traffic, but would be better if they could see us too. This video will make me look into a transponder to increase everyone's safety. Keep up the good work you do!
If you ask me, I believe (for G.A. (General Aviation)) the Insurance premium for ensuring a/an GA aircraft should be lower when the owner(s) prove the aircraft is equipped with T.C.A.S. (Traffic Collision Avoidance System) and ADS-B. EDIT: Typo.
Superb analysis Juan, it's really an addition to my knowledge everytime you post something. Aviation industry really needs devoted professional like you, all over the world, thanks a lot.
Dear Juan. Wow and prayers to the families. I am not a pilot. Many years of standing watch on bridges of US Navy ships underway and years of piloting small craft. Constant bearing, decreasing range, CBDR, collision course. One sees it happen, yet ships collide. Obviously this is quite magnified by relative air speeds of aircraft when they are CBDR. One may only conclude collision avoidance MAY happen by employing the basic tech you suggested. BZ to you and your diligence to report with compassion tragic events.
Spend part of my summer in a helicopter flying transmission lines. Much of around lakes, some of it around towns with other aircraft giving tours, all of it near multiple FBOs. It is amazing how little chatter we hear. I'm glad my pilot isn't afraid to talk. You have to let people know you are there.
I've been a flight instructor for close to 2 years now. I used to instruct at Louisville, KY which can be quite the busy class Charlie and the area Northeast can be busy with traffic to Cincinnati which descends right through the practice area for the flight schools coming into Louisville. They didn't have the ADS-B requirement yet and I instructed for 1 month without ADS-B... and I hated it. Despite my best efforts I constantly had to dodge aircraft at nearly the last second. I would scan to the right, see nothing, scan to the left, see nothing and then I scan again to the right because I am a paranoid bugger and a cirrus sr22 is barreling right at me on a collision course but slightly lower so I apply full power and climb to avoid it. Another time I was teaching a student on a simulated engine failure and the importance of clearing for traffic on the descent when a GREEN Citabria flying over GREEN farmland appears off our left wing less than 500 feet away at our same altitude and I immediately take evasive action. I resolved to get an ADS-B antenna some way some how and I was able to build one after one of my customers showed me his that he had built. I've never had a close call since except one time where an airplane with no ads-b descended out of my 4 o'clock and didn't make a radio call until I had made my 3rd call saying that I was 3 miles southwest from the field. "Wait! I'm 3 miles southwest of the field too! Where are you?!" You have not lived until you get a call like that let me tell you. I had to move my wing to find the guy and he some how couldn't see my white and yellow cessna until I told him where to look. ADS-B is a wonderful extra set of eyes, not infallible but offers another layer of awareness as you fly.
I live in the Spokane area and worked on Lake CDA for a short time; the blancolirio channel is only place I've seen solid reporting on this collision. The whole Spokane/CDA area can get massive amounts of air traffic between the AFB, Spokane International, county airports, private runways, and numerous lakes with open access. There has to be a push to get collision avoidance systems on more aircraft.
Great explanation from a professional. Safety as well prevention is always last one to go. how long it took to place seat belts in cars and ,still, today people are dying or get severely disabled from cars crash due to their misuse. Great video Sir. Please continue to champion safety first. It save lives
I view each of these videos is like a safety class on many levels, thanks Juan. By the way Juan you have a lot more viewers than you may realize , from all the people using cable TV where people cannot subscribe etc. but just watch.
I really appreciate your analysis and opinion of these incidents, unfortunately it’s happening so often now I’m starting to know the regulations off by heart.
As a pilot that operates out of KCOE, I can tell you that one thing was overlooked in your (and the NTSB) report: The use of radio calls. The Brookes operators NEVER use the radio to announce position (Brookes Seaplane Base is listed on the sectional to operate on the same freq as KCOE--122.8). One or two position calls would have probably alerted the 206 pilot to be on the lookout and thereby possibly avoiding the collision. Keep up the great content!!
Great, factual reporting, as always. As you stated, ADS-B will only work when it's required across the entire GA fleet. Even in the busy SF Bay Area, just outside of Charlie & Bravo airspace, I see numerous aircraft without ADS-B out, let alone in. I fly a wide range of aircraft in this airspace. From my non-electric experimental with zero reporting equipment, to complex singles with ADS-B in & out. On most flights in the complex with ADS-B in, i see more aircraft outside the window that aren't reporting, than i see on the display.
Just home from flying backcountry in Idaho and this is the most scary thing about that business. Juan, I really appreciate your breakdowns on the accident reports. I’d go a step further on ADSB or other similar systems and suggest its installation AND operations should be required on ALL aircraft period.
Regarding aircraft movement relative to another aircraft. Regardless of the angle of intercept (head on, or not), if two aircraft are on a collision course, the 'other' aircraft will always appear stationary in our windscreen. When the other aircraft is 'moving', it is an indication that it will not impact us. This is what makes all collisions so hard to see. You cannot scan your environment. You have to concentrate on an area, then clock your vision around a little, stop and observe, then move again. This is difficult and not natural in practice. Thank You Juan, congratulations on getting your medical back, and good luck. I love your analysis,
I'm in the Mid-Atlantic area and there is nowhere I can fly that doesn't have the requirement for ADS-B. The government was subsidizing ADS-B installation by offering a $500 rebate for installation and unit costs. The non-charter, charter operator best have deep pockets as the lawyers will have a field day with this.
Juan, thanks for your timely report on this tragic accident. As a previous commenter said, there is little to no local news coverage, so thank you. I was born and raised in Coeur d’Alene and have been flying out of my small private strip since 1965. The characterization that this is a congested area is wrong in my opinion. There are far fewer airplanes and airports than there used to be. We used to see many airplanes daily flying over the area, and now we only see the occasional light plane flying over. What we tend to see now are more corporate type aircraft going in and out of COE, but most of the time when I’m flying I rarely see another airplane in the sky. The Class C airspace that encompasses Spokane International and Fairchild AFB is largely avoided by most of us GA types, so it’s not really a factor playing into accidents like this. Yes, Felts Field (class D airspace) is busier than years past, but that is a tower controlled airport that sometimes provides radar separation. I frequently fly over Coeur d’Alene Lake and rarely see other aircraft there. Once in awhile I would see the Brooks seaplane Beaver or Cessna 206 (they operated 2 aircraft) operating over the lake, but otherwise very little traffic. ADSB is a good idea, but it is not the panacea. It doesn’t address aircraft that are not radio nor electrically equipped of which there are quite a few in our area as well as across the United States. The FAA spent a tremendous amount of time and money evaluating and implementing the ADSB rule that became effective on January 1, 2020 with the input of various air safety organizations. It’s always a trade off, but as long as we are flying there will be tragic accidents. Even if the Beaver was required to have ADSB (good idea as you state), it would not have provided traffic separation if the other aircraft was not ADSB equipped. I believe it’s misleading to state that the cost for ADSB is only about $2,000 to install. That may be true if the proper Mode S transponder and altimeter are already installed (the cost for certified vs experimental aircraft will likely be different). If not, the cost increases significantly and may be as high as $10,000. Even if required on all aircraft, ADSB is only as good as the pilots using it. Cockpit distractions, especially in “tour” type operators is always a possibility. We will never know what either pilot was doing or where their attention was in the cockpit when this accident happened. It was a tragic accident and we should all learn to be more vigilant regardless of the airspace in which we fly. One last comment. Jon Venden, the grass field burning was banned many years ago, so I’m not sure about your comment there. Yes, each summer there tends to be smoke and haze, but those are due to forest fires. On those days most of the local pilots I know stay on the ground.
My flying experience came from Gliders. As gliders tend to fly close and usually uncontrolled part of the training was to learn to focus your eyes out away from the cockpit. That is not to say keep your head up but to consciously focus at a distance. You may spot something coming at you.
Jb, thanks once again for this brilliant explanation, for merging data from various sources and making it simple to understand. Those stats were scary, especially since 3rd party innocent passengers were involuntarily involved due to no cause of their own. Very sad. 8 mid air collisions for small aircraft, very concerning. RIP those folks that perished. ✝️🙏🏽 Take care and be safe. Hopefully We'll see PiP one of these episodes. 😁
Flew across the country with my son last week Soo glad to Have ADSB for Traffic and Weather. SO worth it. if you do"t have it install it. My Mighty single engine Maule is Glad to have it.
Hi Juan, your analysis is clear, in addition to the TCAS it would be necessary to give these tourist flights that fly with visible flight rules under 3000 feet and not in controlled spaces, the possibility of being able to communicate by giving them an appropriate channel for example 122,800MHZ.
When i worked for a heli tour operator in Juneau, our aircraft all had "Capstone" which is what ADSB is now. We also had "Pulsed" landing lights - the landing lights alternated left and right. Something like that would greatly help in these head on situations
Aircraft lights on, day or night, in congested airspace. ADSB could connect to strobes on your plane, they'd flash towards incoming (ADSB equipped) traffic.
Great reporting ! It sounded as though these aircraft were flying almost directly at each other, and with the modern technology you have explained, on board at least one, this tragic event had a great chance of not taking place, lives saved. Keep pushing , Thanks.
I fault the 206 pilot. He lived in Lewiston and was well aware of those two sight seeing planes that operate out of the Northend of the lake . Common sense tells you they fly low around the lake. He should’ve apprised himself of their schedule and patterns. He flew right over their berth and could see the Beaver was gone. Without knowing where the Beaver was or making radio contact with the Beaver he should’ve maintained 2,000 ft AGL or altitude higher than the Beaver’s customary operational altitudes. I think the people thankfully perished instantly or were rendered unconscious. Airline, commercial and private pilots combined have led thousands of people like lambs to the slaughter.
10:00 is the critical point here. The ground based repeater stations for ADS-B are nearly nonexistent throughout the mountain West. That means that an ADS-B equipped aircraft can't detect another aircraft unless the other aircraft is also equipped with ADS-B OUT. I've been flying the Idaho backcountry and around the West for 30 years. I was weaned on forest service maps, learning the local landmarks, flying the right side of canyons and making position reports. It's good protocol and kinda fun to learn, but it's no insurance against other aircraft trying to share the same box of air you're in. ADS-B is huge upgrade, but it's far from a complete solution right now because 1) there aren't enough ground repeater stations (and the FAA has no plans to put any more in), and 2) ADS-B OUT isn't required everywhere. Because I'm equipped with both IN and OUT, I can see other traffic that is also so equipped even down in the bottom of the canyons of the Salmon River. It's pretty amazing. But it's also just a fraction of the traffic out there. Finally, it's fun to bash California immigrants, but the guys who I find most resistant to equipping--and even talking on the radio--tend to be locals who don't want to spend the money to equip or submit to potential surveillance/tracking by the gummint. California's got a lot of faults, but resistance to new technology and talking on the radio isn't one of them.
Good stuff. Spent most of the end of my career investigating a whistleblower complaint regarding ADS-B development several years ago. I had a nice conversation at the RTCA, I personally think ADS-B and TCAS should be combined using the same ADS-B data. The result would be much higher accuracy and would eliminate the TCAS blind spots. Agree completely about requiring those carrying paid pax be required to have appropriate safety equipment.
In 2002, I lost my CFI, Andreas Pelzer in a midair in the pattern between a Beechcraft Dutchess (His plane) and a Mooney 21 (Entering the pattern at the crosswind/downwind elbow) at CRQ (Carlsbad/McClellan airport in SoCal). 3 souls lost. It took me years to muster the courage to go up again.
A thought regarding this incident: “No radar or ads-b data available” does not necessarily mean that one or both aircraft weren’t equipped with ads-b in or out. Only that it wasn’t available to accident investigators. Even with ads-b out, at 700 ft AGL there may not have been any ground stations within line of sight to receive and record data. If both aircraft were equipped with both out and in, then presumably the pilots (or at least the electronics in each aircraft) could “see” each other. Whether or not an audible traffic warning would be given would depend on the equipment in use. Since both aircraft were there to enjoy the scenery another important factor may have been division of attention inside and outside the cockpit. And for outside the aircraft division of attention between the ground and scanning for traffic. Thank you for your thoughtful presentation.
It can be a high cost for some. They should develop an inexpensive ADS-B out transmitter retrofit kit and require all airplanes to have them. If you want everything integrated in the aircraft, it often requires a new transponder for older aircraft and the costs can easily get upwards of $7k. But those units typically have a lot of other useful information like weather.
I am sure the problem is moreso that there are dozens of $2000 instruments they are encouraged or required to have in the plane. This one was under ZBB.
That's a pretty ignorant statement. Just because someone *owns* an airplane, or even a car, they could have bought and paid for it long ago and couldn't afford to buy it today. 2 grand to *you* might be "nothing", but to them it is a mountain to climb. Maintenance costs, and aviation gasoline are *expensive* all by themselves.
$2000 is not entirely accurate. It is my understanding that ADS-B out requires a transponder too. Many airplanes, like mine, do not have a transponder. So it's more like $4000 to add ADS-B out. $4k is about 1/4th the value of my airplane. I do not consider spending 25% of the aircraft value 'nothing'
@@ulbuilder I haven't looked into it much but I saw a unit called a BOM that mounts the wing and has ADAHARS and ASDS-B in. There might be something out there similar that has ADS-B in/out. That unit is $2k. To have ADS-B out capability would probably still add $2k knowing how that goes.
Thanks for sharing this update with us Juan. Lake Couer d'Alene is such a beautiful Lake. There's a Beauticians school not too far from the lake and when our daughter attended the school, she did some maintenance on my wife. Well, I didn't want to stay there so I walked to the lake and spent some time watching the float planes take off and land. It was a busy place. Thanks again Juan.
I wonder if either aircraft even had their transponders turn on? We're all guilty of forgetting to flip our transponders to "ALT" before we depart but in my kind of business you'd be shocked at how many people just flat have theirs turned off. They call request flight following etc, we give them a squawk, a moment later we come back with "double check your transponders turned on", the pilots response... "oops yep sorry approach its on now". Probably 4 or 5 times a day in my experience. Amazing videos as usual great work. Juan Brown 2020! ;)
Dang, I took a tour of Lake Coeur d'Alene with Brooks Seaplane around five years back (before my interest in aviation grew a year or so ago). I think it was with their Cessna 206 floatplane, though I'm not sure. My dad and I were fully confident in the pilot's abilities and the plane's performance, being simple tourists, which just goes to show how essential it is for commercial tour companies and the like have to hold themselves accountable and take the effort to add things like ADSB to their planes. Any tourist wouldn't know the difference.
Thanks for the update Juan. Unfortunately, only requiring collision avoidance equipment on pay flight wouldn't have done anything to prevent this tragedy. We need to think outside the box and get inexpensive handheld collision avoidance devices to market now. All the major flight associations and govt. agencies need to huddle up and come up with a standard and publish it so manufacturers can start making them ASAP. If it flies with human on board, 2 way collision avoidance should be mandatory, period. If it flies without a human on board it need to transmit only location, altitude, and velocity. Your cell phone has much more expensive tech in it than one of these would require. They wouldn't require much power at all and could run for days(talking a simple handheld device here) transmitting short bursts of packet data every few seconds with, say a 2 mile range. There is no valid reason these aren't already required equipment. Hell one would be cheaper than a single fill of fuel. If you fly multiple aircraft, no problem, take it with you. Para motor or private jet, shouldn't matter. Enter your aircraft description/ID before takeoff and be safe. And to go a step further, since it would be gps based, you could include terrain avoidance as well.
Great Reporting and Information Interpretation of these sad, sad, negative Airplane incidents. Prayers to those that lost their lives and their families and friends. Keep Safety First and All other reasons, Second! Thumbs Up again as usual!
One thing the visibility out of a beavers yes not very good. Yeah the big round engine cowling and the door, door post wing strut I fly Bi-plane‘s with better visibility
No exageration mourning the loss of that great bird too. What a singularly dear design is the Dehavilland Beaver, most especially to the Arctic regions where it shown like a champ in EVERY capacity a good bird can shine. Never again.
@@jeffwalther3935 you are correct. I live in Alaska where the Beaver and Cubs are staple aircraft. When one has crashed they can quite often be repaired and brought back to life. Super Cub frames are slowly fading away. My son works for Airframes Alaska and they have begun making brand new Cub style frames. Don't think that will be happening anytime soon with the workhorse Beaver.
@@Stony121 Harrison Ford has one that must be in just outstanding condition and great fer cross-country especially to anywhere at all. Cubs too for STOL characteristics that defy physics and make 'em probably the greatest airplane design of all time. It allows one to imagine the idea of perfection, they're that good, imho.
Just great reporting, Juan - such a tragedy tho. We've got a small operator flying a Beaver back and forth to a fishing camp near us. I was up with another friend in his float plane talking about the Beaver pilot's habit of never climbing above 500 ft or so on his runs. "Guy thinks he's saving gas but his engine is going to quit one of these days and his only option will be right under his ass. Hope for his sake it's water..." Not the same situation obviously but an equally infuriating gamble as not using radios or easily obtained safety equipment.
There is a camera based see and avoid system designed for drones. I have seen the demonstration at Oshkosh. The system includes a camera and small computer that can identify and track airborne targets.
Great reporting. Showing the picture of the paying family puts it in perspective. There is NO reason other they pilots being to f-ing cheap, that EVERYONE should not be required to have ADSB out now.
I flew in the Beaver with my Son the day before the crash. Eerily, I asked Neal about upgrading the avionics and putting in ADSB. A CTAF for lake traffic should also be implemented.
In maritime regulations, all commercial vessels have to have AIS which is the marine equivalent of ADSB. When you consider that most boats travel less than 30kts it seems crazy that airplanes can operate commercially without ADSB but boats have to have AIS.
A possible future solution is a depicted traffic pattern as used in other sightseeing areas. As agreed upon by the stakeholders, it could be up on one side of the lake and down on the other below 3000'. Depicted traffic patterns have been in use since flight training because not all aircraft are required to have radios or navigation gear and there would be a directional flow.
I've been a pilot for 30 years now, and it's inconceivable to me that two aircraft, that are being flown by trained airmen, who are alert and aware, can fly into each other. It's extremely rare.
I fault the 206 pilot. He lived in Lewiston and was well aware of those two sight seeing planes that operate out of the Northend of the lake . Common sense tells you they fly low around the lake. He should’ve apprised himself of their schedule and patterns. He flew right over their berth and could see the Beaver was gone. Without knowing where the Beaver was or making radio contact with the Beaver he should’ve maintained 2,000 ft AGL or altitude higher than the Beaver’s customary operational altitudes. I think the people thankfully perished instantly or were rendered unconscious. Airline, commercial and private pilots combined have led thousands of people like lambs to the slaughter.
I used to fly out of Reid Hillview airport in San Jose, California in the 1980’s. It was, and still is, a very congested airspace in the San Francisco Bay Area. On one flight I had departed RHV VFR, and was climbing to cruising altitude outside of controlled airspace and was horrified to see a Mooney descending inbound to RHV. He saw me at the same time and we both instantly managed to avoid a midair collision. He made a rapid right hand descending turn while I veered right. Way too close for comfort!!
At 8:50 : also remember, that 'dot' is coming at you at a high closing speed, at least 220 mph in this case. That's 352 feet per second, or a mile in 15 seconds!
Really, both flying at an average of 110mph? I'd have thought it would be higher, but I don't know anything about these specific aircraft and their usual cruise speeds, let alone what the float plane might have been doing if sightseeing.
A sight seeing plane over the lake isn’t going over 70 maybe. The southbound 206 shouldn’t have been going any faster at that altitude. 206 was also sightseeing. Still that’s a 140 mph closing rate. People died instantly or were rendered unconscious.
As a professional mariner all I can say is you need some kind of range, bearing and altitude from the other aircraft, as is done at sea with just range and bearing (e.g. radar and some kind of collision avoidance system). Decreasing range and no or slight bearing change over time there will be a collision or near miss. Of course with airplanes you need the 3rd dimension, altitude. You are correct, this should be mandatory in both part 91 and part 135. Very tragic and I agree with you, this could have been avoided with the ADS-B on board. Thanks for all your aviation insight!
Totally agree with ADS-B requirements, it’s amazing how much I never saw before that I’m now aware of. ADS-B does report non ADS-B equipped aircraft if tbey’re being painted by ATC.
Thanks Juan. PLEASE KEEP THE BEARD! I was the project manager for the FAA ATC modernization back in the ‘90s and responsible for the redesign and integration of a new common infrastructure across all 22 ARTCC facilities. The fact that ADS-B can be equipped in any aircraft for only $2,000 makes me wonder what kinds of questionable arguments pilots use to justify skipping this life-saving investment. After all, how much value is placed on human lives? Do you have any anecdotal input on the subject from conversations you have had with - or overheard from - other pilots on the subject? If I ever get to the point where I can afford my own aircraft, it will definitely be equipped with ADS-B. I wonder why AOPA doesn’t push for full adoption more vocally?
I'm new to operating with ADS-B. Yes, I understand the complaints over the cost, and the requirements. However, good technologies can be an advantage. The technology as implemented does indeed offer some very useful information. Playing with the avionics, I really like the benefits provided as part of the package. The biggest advantage? Situational awareness. This is normally provided manually through flight following services using ATC and the transponder. ADS-B pinpoints the other aircraft in your airspace brilliantly, long before you can see them.
I had an incident on my first solo cross country more than 30 years ago that I will always remember. I was climbing to my cruise altitude when I looked to the right and saw a Cessna 210 headed straight for me. I dived immediately and the Cessna passed over me at around 100 ft. I don't think the other pilot ever saw me. I was lucky I was flying a piper at the time because if I was flying a Cessna the wing would have blocked my view. It's hard to realize how fast these things happen until you experience it yourself.
Some notes from some local CdA pilots...I know plenty of CA pilots who have moved into the area...Juan
"1. The Brooks Seaplane Beaver was flying on the LEFT side of the lake. Most pilots are taught since primary students to fly on the right side of rivers, mountain passes (unless strong winds dictate otherwise), and Lakes. Neil, the Beaver pilot, was corrected on this just two days before the accident when flying his mechanic (also a seaplane pilot). Contrary to the NTSB map, the accident occurred much closer to the west shoreline - right side for 206, left for Beaver.
2. The Brooks operation did not use radios, at all, ever. If both planes had been communicating on 122.8 (122.9, although shown on the chart, is not used), the accident probably would’t have happened.
3. If the seaplane (not sure about the 206) would have had wig-wag landing lights, strobes, and all other lights on, they may have seen each other in time to avoid.
4. You are right, Beavers do have blind spots, but I suspect proper scanning procedures weren’t being used, at least by the Beaver. How do I know? My wife and I were flying the morning of the crash and were almost run over by the Beaver. No ADS-B, no response to our radio calls, no acknowledgement of our wing-wagging. If I hadn’t dived, it could have been us that day.
In my opinion, we have what I call the “California Bush Pilot” attitude here in North Idaho. We have many pilots moving from California, and other states with much more restricted airspace, who now think, because the airspace here is uncontrolled, that means “out of control.” Screw the radio, screw proper pattern entries, screw the rules, “I’m a friggin’ Bush Pilot now!” "
See and avoid is job 1 no matter the vehicle. The transponder with mode C was a great tool for the ATC network provided it was turned on or not accidentally left in standby mode. This next generation of ADS-B and TCAS are wonderful tools but they offer false security. Now we are dealing with unmanned drones and driver-less vehicles. We have cool new tools in the cockpit that many pilots are distractedly focused inside the aircraft fiddling with including cellphones and cameras. Texting and operating all equate to the same of not keeping eyes scanning outside the mode of transportation vehicle. VFR is VFR assuming the right of ways and flying with eyes inside the cockpit is beyond stupid. Cool tools don't make a captain, driver or a pilot. There is no substitute for always keeping eyes systematically scanning outside with seeing and avoiding traffic. If there is, we will just be in a simulator. If you couldn't operate the old system you will be hurt relying on the new!
This seems a significant comment.
This isn't the sort of thing a bunch of Idaho natives might want to go public on, so as to avoid stirring animosity with the CaliFugitives. Some non-vested 3rd party like Juan, however, might suavely step in as an investigative reporter (or whatever) and expand on this topic.
Of course, the cowboys & hotdogs in question are probably the last ones to watch videos like this....
The area is not uncontrolled. It's class c through the lake area because of the international airport in Spokane Washington.
So then, pilots from Kansas automatically know the local flying rules no matter where they move to?
FLARM saved me around 10 years ago. I was in a glider and another glider was directly heading towards me. When FLARM issued the highest collision alert we both flew evasive maneuvers and this was the first time I could see him. Time from first traffic information till highest alert level was maybe 5 seconds, so it goes really fast when heading directly towards each other.
I am on the lake and this is the best info I have seen so far. My family friends pulled the Cessna logbook out of the water.
Wow! Thanks Allan.
Mircea that would be the information given in the video
@Mircea bruh
@Mircea classic people on UA-cam with 60 iq
@Mircea lul wut
Juan gives the best airline crash analysis on the internet. He is trying hard to work himself out of that role by explaining the causes of these crashes so thoroughly. Here's hoping he runs out of material someday.
Juan gives subs a front seat perspective on aviation accidents (CRASH is airport Fire dept & never say fire dept over radio). Great channel Juan!!
The Cessna traveling point to point and not landing probably should have been required to get up to the odd/even altitudes and not allowed to mix with traffic. In scenic area staying low and sight seeing while traveling probably is the rule and not the exception.
Juan gives facts. Nothing trumps simple facts. The more simple facts are the better facts. The comments fill in a lot of stuff. I am loving it.
Juan's accident investigation hones in like a missle, right to the salient factor, the usually glaring and several cause(s) of all these crashes, incidents, mishaps, mysteries and mayhem, . . . Stay tuned. Ya cannot make up better, more dramatic stories. (and maybe save countless lives, liberty and the pursuit of happiness at altitude while we're doing it too.) 😃
From what I’ve seen the USA has an outstanding safety culture . The amount of flights per year reflects the accident rate. Well done NTSB AND THE SAFETY CULTURE. KEEP IT STRONG
For those that don't know the area I want to add to what Juan was saying about the congestion. 25 miles to the west is Spokane WA. Over there you have Fairchild Air Force Base, International Airport, and another active runway. Also to the south of Spokane are fields which are some of those can be crop dusted by plane or helicopter. Then there is a lot of grass seed raised in the area so at certain times of the year they burn those fields off so you get a lot of smoke. Then in a 100 mile radius of Spokane there is another dozen dirt fields (lot of those were put in place because of crop dusting) that range in no activity to some activity not including other paved runways that are used primarily for personal use aircraft with a lot of hangers and tie downs. I'm not a pilot or even in Juan's league of understanding on how things work but it is obvious that there is a lot of uncontrolled air space with a lot of randoms that can pop up with no warning. This is an area where you need to watch were your going very carefully.
So true, a friend of mine flies GA out of Felts Field and has commented more than once on the amount of traffic in the area. I worked close to Felts for 3 years and the skies on nice days were constantly filled with small planes.
Some piddly points of no real importance ...
Fairchild (AKA SKA) and Spokane International Airport (AKA GEG) are just to the west of Spokane.
Felts Field (AKA SFF) is just to the north of part of Spokane.
Here's a link to part of a sectional that covers the area:
< vfrmap.com/?type=vfrc&lat=47.619&lon=-117.535&zoom=10&api_key=763xxE1MJHyhr48DlAP2qQ >
There's no question that there's a lot of traffic in the area to and from these airports (including from time to time float planes that take off from the Spokane River just to the north of Felts Field).
However the big grass growing operations that I am aware of are on the Idaho side of Rathdrum Prairie, to the north of Coeur d'Alene, and they haven't burned their stubble for years now as the smoke tended to drift into Spokane where temperature inversions had a habit of keeping the smoke plastered over Spokane.
I don't recall much crop dusting ever being done there, but I could be wrong.
To the south of Spokane is the Palouse which is great wheat farm land (Washington is the fourth largest wheat producing state) and while I don't recall much crop dusting being done there either, I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't have happened much closer than Spangle which is about 20 miles south of Spokane, just outside the Class C Fairchild/Spokane/CDA airspace.
The Palouse is basically a bunch of huge sand dunes blown in from one of the ice ages, not flat farm land that others may think of in the Midwest.
The huge rolling mounds coupled with fairly good wind (there's a reason why there's a windmill farm near Rosalia) makes it hard for me to believe that there's ever been all that much crop dusting done there.
Even if it does happen, I've spent time on the Palouse and to say that the airspace over the Palouse is "congested" seems more than a little bit of a stretch to me except perhaps for certain times of the year.
In short, I think you're overstating the amount of "congestion" in the area outside of the Spokane area.
I fault the 206 pilot. He lived in Lewiston and was well aware of those two sight seeing planes that operate out of the Northend of the lake . Common sense tells you they fly low around the lake. He should’ve apprised himself of their schedule and patterns. He flew right over their berth and could see the Beaver was gone. Without knowing where the Beaver was or making radio contact with the Beaver he should’ve maintained 2,000 ft AGL or altitude higher than the Beaver’s customary operational altitudes. I think the people thankfully perished instantly or were rendered unconscious.
Airline, commercial and private pilots combined have led thousands of people like lambs to the slaughter.
Hi Michael Runnels
Your area is booming. I’ve driven through several times. People are escaping our liberal utopia. Expect more. Widen 1-90.
@@jmwSeattle
> I fault the 206 pilot.
You are entitled to your opinion, but I at least will wait for what the NTSB has to say.
Having said that, although I am not a pilot and don't play one on TV, I find the justification you give to support your opinion to be ... less than compelling.
> He lived in Lewiston and was well
> aware of those two sight seeing planes
> that operate out of the Northend of
> the lake.
> Common sense tells you they fly low
> around the lake.
Assuming that the 206 driver was aware of float plane base (and I have no reason to doubt that he was), so what? Seriously.
ISTM that you are basically implying that the float plane operator had no responsibility to see and avoid or to announce his location/intention(s) to others who might be flying around the area just because he was there (based on the lake) first, which to my uneducated way of thinking is just silly.
> He should’ve apprised himself of their
> schedule and patterns. He flew right
> over their berth and could see the
> Beaver was gone. Without knowing where
> the Beaver was or making radio contact
> with the Beaver he should’ve maintained
> 2,000 ft AGL or altitude higher than
> the Beaver’s customary operational
> altitudes.
Again, so what?
They were both operating in uncontrolled airspace.
You seem to be suggesting that some users are more entitled to use such airspace as they please compared to others.
If there's a notice or regulation to that effect, I'd love to hear about it, but until then, ISTM that the 206 driver had just as much right to fly below 2000ft as the Beaver driver did.
And it seems to my uneducated way of thinking that the float plane operator had just as much need to make other users of the airspace aware of his presence and intentions, especially since he was carrying paying passengers.
I don't know whether or not the 206 driver was monitoring the TCAF or not, but I likewise don't know that the Beaver driver was saying a word either.
If you know what the Beaver driver was doing in this regard, I'd love to hear about that too.
Care to enlighten a poor dumb non-pilot?
It’s comforting to know if my plane ever goes down, Juan will get to the bottom of it.
Well I would prefer your plane never goes down 😁
I'd rather use breakdowns from Juan and others to ensure I learn the lessons of other people's mistakes and don't become a lesson myself.
@5putput good. It does a disservice to the aviation community as a whole when manufacturers are forced to pay for the shortcomings of pilots.
Yea this is one UA-cam channel we don’t wanna be stars on
@@timblack33 you'd rather be a topic on Gryder's channel, maybe?
Lakes are magnets for midairs. There are all kinds of things on and around lakes to look at instead of what’s flying toward you..
Sounds like a pilot who knows from experience. Obviously you never missed noticing another incoming or outgoing plane moving or you wouldn't be telling us that truth.
@@txkflier Ok so you almost got into something bad around the year I was born. This explains your insight to me. I am so happy you can tell me that story, as a flight enthusiast and RC pilot. I am so happy you are here to tell me about it. I hope you enjoy as many hours of flight as you can get.
The Lake's the salient factor in determining all the relevent CAUSES to this mid-air for sure.
IMHO, Cessna pilot was imprudently flying low when his purpose was more transitional, transportation versus sightseeing. My point here is Cessna pilot should have given or afforded all concerned a better altitude to fly his route at the prescribed standard altitudes ABOVE 3000 feet to provide due additional opportunity to see other, more likely, visually undistracted and unconcerned aircraft, above sightseeing preferences BELOW 3000' and thus better see possible others coming from predictable angles and altitudes, all things considered, the intention of airspace regulation at all.
@@PInk77W1 That is interesting.
@@PInk77W1 You MUST be kidding. Do we have a problem? WTF?
I am not a pilot, but these reports are really interesting. Good job!
This is why I love to fly with my landing light and strobes on...during the day. Summer in the NW is crazy. Too many near miss.
Like George Carlin aptly said, "that wasn't a near MISS, that was a near *HIT!* Fly safe!
Man I ride my Road bike with strobe F & R lights on every ride even broad daylight.
It gives motorists full warning of my presence - that extra margin prevents accidents.
And as my Lawyer Cyclist friend says, "I'll get a 3x greater settlement to cover your medical or for your next of kin" when your bike has lights on...no Insurance Company would not pay.
So sounds like flashing lights for daylight FLIGHTS or RIDES, eh ?
That picture at the end. Like a Peterbilt to the heart.
I hope that the families and friends of those lost can find peace and tranquility in these difficult times. Thank you for your report, Juan.
Going into SJC with the company's 414. ATC advises us of opposing traffic at 11 o'clock, three miles. Neither Warren nor I saw the SW 37 until he was almost on top of us. Even something the size of a B-737 is almost impossible to see if it is flying straight at you. Also the closing rate is your speed plus his speed. Bad things happen really fast.
I saw the front end of a Banaza and then a Pitts within a second one day. They were headed south on different courses and I was going north, and I'd bet none of us knew the others were there until we passed each other.
Watching Air Disasters, one of the aviation experts would state "see and be seen is a misnomer". Aviation history has a large body count for mid air collisions and the big planes have TCAS now. I'm sure Juan would agree of the importance of this tool. Hopefully, the FAA will take into consideration the body count, technology improvements and listen to the NTSB to start requiring this safety equipment.
@@duster0066 I bet you needed new shorts after that flight...
I did see once that someone referred an oncoming aircraft as being a dot the size of a fly dropping. When that dropping starts to grow wings it's when it's getting very late to evade it.
@@fyrman9092 Funny but no. It happened and was over while I was still processing it. I never saw them until they were there. By the time I figured it out I knew I was safe. Just blind luck.
In the 90's, on the first leg of my very first X-country solo, I was approaching a VOR navaid while flying VFR but was monitoring LA Center. I heard ATC essentially arguing with another pilot that he was flying at the incorrect westbound VFR altitude and was on a collision course and closing on an eastbound aircraft, same altitude that she was not talking to. The pilot kept claiming he didn't understand her (ATC) request and proceeded without correction. The back and forth went on as she demanded he immediately alter his flight path as he was in imminent danger. As a pilot in training, I was quite taken aback by the dialogue and the pilot's lack of understanding when ATC happened to mention a geographic location in her communication with said pilot and all of a sudden I realized the "other" aircraft on the collision course was ME! As Juan mentioned, the visible aspect ratio of 2 opposing Cessnas ain't squat. I was scanning like mad and suddenly, out of the central CA valley haze, I saw a dot with a skinny line over the top directly in front of me and not changing position so I immediately made an evasive maneuver to the right to "show him my wings". As I leveled, the other pilot went right by me on my left, pretty much right where I would have been and I'll never forget the look on his face...yes, it was that close. He had the look of "what are you doing here?!" as he wizzed by in a C182, all the while still not making a course correction. In obvious disgust, ATC finally terminated radar service for that pilot and went about her business with busy airspace. I immediately made a VFR Request for flight following which was accepted and when I squawked my transponder code, she was like "Oh, Hi there, it's YOU!" and she was very nice to me till I left her airspace.
I learned a whole lot by the end of that day, just a couple of those things is; Flight Following is your VFR friend if their workload permits and never fly close to a VOR navaid because many others are, too. TCAS was in it's infancy for GA aircraft. A little dash mounted TCAS box was soon introduced. You gotta stay on your toes and keep your head on a swivel when flying VFR!
This why flying point to point with GPS is safer.
@@jmwSeattle But the higher precision of GPS also increases the chance of planes flying along exactly the same line and meeting in the exact same spot.
many years ago I was flying a glider at 6ooo feet above the ground when I was aware of a speck closing on me I made a 90 degree turn to the right and watched the 4 engined piston engine plane pass on my left so close I could see the crew with their heads down looking in the office. If you come across a soaring bird and you are doing 130 knots the closing speed
is only 140 knots but the bird passes you like a rocket. By the way the 4 engined plane was an airforce plane a DC6 so you can tell the length of time since that important demonstration was had. Thanks for a great channel.
I spent a whole summer working on the Seattle MOHAI at the former Navy Reserve Base on Lake Union. Lake Union is an active floating airport located just north of downtown Seattle. I was alwaysed amazed to see the planes taking off and landing amongst all the other activities going on at this small lake. Boats, kiats, paddle boarders and Airplanes, Oh My!
I even saw a dry dock taking on a ship there and, a native american man launching a aprox. 30ft cedar canoe he was carving out all summer.
Juan, this visual ability was taught in the military. It is easy to see objects moving ACROSS our field of vision, but hard to see objects going IN or OUT of our field of vision. I now use this information to help stay alive while motorcycling. Thanks.
Juan,
A collision avoidance system which is similar to ADS-B, but does not require a transponder, is not expensive and in use in Europe, exists since 2004. It is called FLARM and very well described in Wikipedia.
It is mandatory in France.
In this country it is highly recommended by the Soaring Society of America (SSA) because it is better suited for aircraft normally operating close to each other like gliders climbing in the same thermal, or behind towplanes .
Most helicopters in Switzerland are equipped with FLARM, because it also contains a data base of the location of wires and powerlines, which are the main cause of helicopter fatalities in the narrow valleys of the swiss Alps.
The displays give similar information to what you have shown on TCAS. Audible and visual alarms are given when the predictive algorithms detect an imminent collision. The position of an aircraft is shown relative to your heading and altitude. See the article in Wikipedia for the exact details.
The name is a contraction of Flieger Alarm.
I mentioned this system in the comments on your prior video, where you gave a clear and detailed
description of TCAS
Juan, in the following reply the website for FLARM is given.
You can even get a miniaturized FLARM module for your Mavic drone.
Integration with ADS-B is also available.
This is what you mentioned in the time mark 9:50 of your video.
flarm.com/
@@siliconebobsqpts
Thank you.
From Wikipedia:
FLARM obtains its position and altitude readings from an internal GPS and a barometric sensor and then broadcasts this together with forecast data about the future 3D flight track. At the same time, its receiver listens for other FLARM devices within range and processes the information received. Advanced motion prediction algorithms predict potential conflicts for up to 50 other aircraft and alert the pilot using visual and aural warnings. FLARM has an integrated obstacle collision warning system together with an obstacle database. The database includes both point and segmented obstacles, such as split power lines and cableways.
Unlike conventional transponders, FLARM has low power consumption and is relatively inexpensive to purchase and install. Furthermore, conventional Airborne Collision Avoidance Systems (ACAS) are not effective in preventing light aircraft from colliding with each other as light aircraft can be close to each other without danger of collision. ACAS would issue continuous and unnecessary warnings about all aircraft in the vicinity, whereas FLARM only issues selective warnings about collision risks.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLARM
I have a version of of ADS-B in my DJI Mavic Air 2 drone -- they call it Airsense but it is a version of ADS-B. While flying the drone, I have about 3 hours flying it so far, I've had numerous indications on my FPV screen about aircraft in the area and usually I can here the aircraft as well providing additional confirmation of its proximity. It's useful to have this even in a drone as it alerts you to a threat and makes you more aware. If they can install ADS-B in a drone that cost $800USD there's no reason a similar system couldn't be mandated for ALL aircraft.
Is it an add on or from thr OEM?
I have it in my glider as well
@@kramrle I own a DJI Mavic Air 2 drone as well. It's included from DJI (OEM, at no extra charge) and is ADS-B "IN" only (the FAA does not allow ADS-B "OUT" in drones). I love the feature and is one of the reasons I bought the drone. Of course not all gen av are required to have ADS-B installed as Juan pointed out (which is a shame IMO). The Mavic Air 2 drone only costs $799! The drone alerts you to aircraft with ADS-B "OUT" in the local area.
@Peter Mortensen yes, you are correct
@@kramrle The version they sell in the USA has it stock, but in other parts of the world its not yet an option. This is thete first consumer drone that has it, but I expect all but the smallest models will have it going forward. As has been pointed out it is only ADSB in at the moment, but I can see 2way ADSB in a few years and maybe mandatory.
ADSB saved me from a mid air against a bizzjet flying at 320 kt head on (jet was at the wrong altitude 7500 heading west ) . Lucky the i pad alerted me to the threat.
Been watching you way too frequently lately, Juan. Thanks for all you do.
This is precisely the sort of content which UA-cam should support, in every way possible.
Demonetizing these meticulous forensic examinations of aircraft incidents, makes no sense at all. They are of interest not only to aviators, but to anyone else who appreciates the high quality and professionalism exhibited in Juan's video reports. They are the gold standard by which all other
aircraft accident reporting will be judged.
Best tip my father ever gave me (Maj USAF F-105D out of Korat '68, 34th TFS). Collision course head on, target does not move across the windscreen. I have always searched for dots forward, getting larger, quickly. Thanks for pointing that out Juan.
Thanks JB...I appreciate all you do. I can see the frustration you have regarding what should have been avoided especially when carrying more than one passenger with a plane for hire.
It's insane that I grew up in cda, have tons of family there, and yet I hear no actual info on this from the actual news. Thank you, Juan.
Cody Piscitelli there were a few articles in the CDA Press
Happy group photo of the victims at the end - heartbreaking. Thank you for including that, Juan. It really puts it in better perspective.
Great update on the prelim sir, you are a very valuable part of aviation and your reports are welcome.
A sorry situation. Condolences to the families.
Thank you for the report, Juan.
Thanks for the informative report JB. Sounds similar to the AIS system in the commercial marine environment. Commercial boats require it, but not recreational. We have AIS receiving on our boat, but not transponding. It's useful to avoid commercial traffic, but would be better if they could see us too. This video will make me look into a transponder to increase everyone's safety.
Keep up the good work you do!
If you ask me, I believe (for G.A. (General Aviation)) the Insurance premium for ensuring a/an GA aircraft should be lower when the owner(s) prove the aircraft is equipped with T.C.A.S. (Traffic Collision Avoidance System) and ADS-B.
EDIT: Typo.
... A working adsb tcas for your plane to be covered....
Superb analysis Juan, it's really an addition to my knowledge everytime you post something. Aviation industry really needs devoted professional like you, all over the world, thanks a lot.
Dear Juan. Wow and prayers to the families. I am not a pilot. Many years of standing watch on bridges of US Navy ships underway and years of piloting small craft. Constant bearing, decreasing range, CBDR, collision course. One sees it happen, yet ships collide. Obviously this is quite magnified by relative air speeds of aircraft when they are CBDR. One may only conclude collision avoidance MAY happen by employing the basic tech you suggested. BZ to you and your diligence to report with compassion tragic events.
Spend part of my summer in a helicopter flying transmission lines. Much of around lakes, some of it around towns with other aircraft giving tours, all of it near multiple FBOs. It is amazing how little chatter we hear. I'm glad my pilot isn't afraid to talk. You have to let people know you are there.
5:01 gave me chills... uncontrolled, busy airspace, all flying over that beautiful lake
I've been a flight instructor for close to 2 years now. I used to instruct at Louisville, KY which can be quite the busy class Charlie and the area Northeast can be busy with traffic to Cincinnati which descends right through the practice area for the flight schools coming into Louisville. They didn't have the ADS-B requirement yet and I instructed for 1 month without ADS-B... and I hated it. Despite my best efforts I constantly had to dodge aircraft at nearly the last second. I would scan to the right, see nothing, scan to the left, see nothing and then I scan again to the right because I am a paranoid bugger and a cirrus sr22 is barreling right at me on a collision course but slightly lower so I apply full power and climb to avoid it. Another time I was teaching a student on a simulated engine failure and the importance of clearing for traffic on the descent when a GREEN Citabria flying over GREEN farmland appears off our left wing less than 500 feet away at our same altitude and I immediately take evasive action. I resolved to get an ADS-B antenna some way some how and I was able to build one after one of my customers showed me his that he had built. I've never had a close call since except one time where an airplane with no ads-b descended out of my 4 o'clock and didn't make a radio call until I had made my 3rd call saying that I was 3 miles southwest from the field. "Wait! I'm 3 miles southwest of the field too! Where are you?!" You have not lived until you get a call like that let me tell you. I had to move my wing to find the guy and he some how couldn't see my white and yellow cessna until I told him where to look. ADS-B is a wonderful extra set of eyes, not infallible but offers another layer of awareness as you fly.
I live in the Spokane area and worked on Lake CDA for a short time; the blancolirio channel is only place I've seen solid reporting on this collision. The whole Spokane/CDA area can get massive amounts of air traffic between the AFB, Spokane International, county airports, private runways, and numerous lakes with open access. There has to be a push to get collision avoidance systems on more aircraft.
Thanks for the update. Horrible times.
Another sad story. Thanks from an old Luscombe pilot.
Great explanation from a professional. Safety as well prevention is always last one to go. how long it took to place seat belts in cars and ,still, today people are dying or get severely disabled from cars crash due to their misuse. Great video Sir. Please continue to champion safety first. It save lives
I view each of these videos is like a safety class on many levels, thanks Juan. By the way Juan you have a lot more viewers than you may realize , from all the people using cable TV where people cannot subscribe etc. but just watch.
I really appreciate your analysis and opinion of these incidents, unfortunately it’s happening so often now I’m starting to know the regulations off by heart.
As a pilot that operates out of KCOE, I can tell you that one thing was overlooked in your (and the NTSB) report: The use of radio calls. The Brookes operators NEVER use the radio to announce position (Brookes Seaplane Base is listed on the sectional to operate on the same freq as KCOE--122.8). One or two position calls would have probably alerted the 206 pilot to be on the lookout and thereby possibly avoiding the collision. Keep up the great content!!
Great, factual reporting, as always. As you stated, ADS-B will only work when it's required across the entire GA fleet. Even in the busy SF Bay Area, just outside of Charlie & Bravo airspace, I see numerous aircraft without ADS-B out, let alone in. I fly a wide range of aircraft in this airspace. From my non-electric experimental with zero reporting equipment, to complex singles with ADS-B in & out. On most flights in the complex with ADS-B in, i see more aircraft outside the window that aren't reporting, than i see on the display.
Just home from flying backcountry in Idaho and this is the most scary thing about that business. Juan, I really appreciate your breakdowns on the accident reports. I’d go a step further on ADSB or other similar systems and suggest its installation AND operations should be required on ALL aircraft period.
By the time you see the dot or insect smashed on your window plus reaction time, there is no time. Like your beard. Love your regs reviews and videos
Regarding aircraft movement relative to another aircraft. Regardless of the angle of intercept (head on, or not), if two aircraft are on a collision course, the 'other' aircraft will always appear stationary in our windscreen. When the other aircraft is 'moving', it is an indication that it will not impact us. This is what makes all collisions so hard to see. You cannot scan your environment. You have to concentrate on an area, then clock your vision around a little, stop and observe, then move again. This is difficult and not natural in practice. Thank You Juan, congratulations on getting your medical back, and good luck. I love your analysis,
I think this is an honest assessment of where we are in GA today. Let's adopt these practices and move forward to ensure our viability going forward
I'm in the Mid-Atlantic area and there is nowhere I can fly that doesn't have the requirement for ADS-B. The government was subsidizing ADS-B installation by offering a $500 rebate for installation and unit costs.
The non-charter, charter operator best have deep pockets as the lawyers will have a field day with this.
Juan, thanks for your timely report on this tragic accident. As a previous commenter said, there is little to no local news coverage, so thank you.
I was born and raised in Coeur d’Alene and have been flying out of my small private strip since 1965. The characterization that this is a congested area is wrong in my opinion. There are far fewer airplanes and airports than there used to be. We used to see many airplanes daily flying over the area, and now we only see the occasional light plane flying over. What we tend to see now are more corporate type aircraft going in and out of COE, but most of the time when I’m flying I rarely see another airplane in the sky. The Class C airspace that encompasses Spokane International and Fairchild AFB is largely avoided by most of us GA types, so it’s not really a factor playing into accidents like this. Yes, Felts Field (class D airspace) is busier than years past, but that is a tower controlled airport that sometimes provides radar separation. I frequently fly over Coeur d’Alene Lake and rarely see other aircraft there. Once in awhile I would see the Brooks seaplane Beaver or Cessna 206 (they operated 2 aircraft) operating over the lake, but otherwise very little traffic.
ADSB is a good idea, but it is not the panacea. It doesn’t address aircraft that are not radio nor electrically equipped of which there are quite a few in our area as well as across the United States. The FAA spent a tremendous amount of time and money evaluating and implementing the ADSB rule that became effective on January 1, 2020 with the input of various air safety organizations. It’s always a trade off, but as long as we are flying there will be tragic accidents. Even if the Beaver was required to have ADSB (good idea as you state), it would not have provided traffic separation if the other aircraft was not ADSB equipped.
I believe it’s misleading to state that the cost for ADSB is only about $2,000 to install. That may be true if the proper Mode S transponder and altimeter are already installed (the cost for certified vs experimental aircraft will likely be different). If not, the cost increases significantly and may be as high as $10,000.
Even if required on all aircraft, ADSB is only as good as the pilots using it. Cockpit distractions, especially in “tour” type operators is always a possibility. We will never know what either pilot was doing or where their attention was in the cockpit when this accident happened. It was a tragic accident and we should all learn to be more vigilant regardless of the airspace in which we fly.
One last comment. Jon Venden, the grass field burning was banned many years ago, so I’m not sure about your comment there. Yes, each summer there tends to be smoke and haze, but those are due to forest fires. On those days most of the local pilots I know stay on the ground.
Tragic and very sad! Great job informing and useful advising. (“Weightless” in a appropriate tone...) 🇧🇷
My flying experience came from Gliders. As gliders tend to fly close and usually uncontrolled part of the training was to learn to focus your eyes out away from the cockpit. That is not to say keep your head up but to consciously focus at a distance. You may spot something coming at you.
Jb, thanks once again for this brilliant explanation, for merging data from various sources and making it simple to understand. Those stats were scary, especially since 3rd party innocent passengers were involuntarily involved due to no cause of their own. Very sad. 8 mid air collisions for small aircraft, very concerning. RIP those folks that perished. ✝️🙏🏽
Take care and be safe. Hopefully We'll see PiP one of these episodes. 😁
Excellent post Juan.
Flew across the country with my son last week Soo glad to Have ADSB for Traffic and Weather. SO worth it. if you do"t have it install it. My Mighty single engine Maule is Glad to have it.
Hi Juan, your analysis is clear, in addition to the TCAS it would be necessary to give these tourist flights that fly with visible flight rules under 3000 feet and not in controlled spaces, the possibility of being able to communicate by giving them an appropriate channel for example 122,800MHZ.
When i worked for a heli tour operator in Juneau, our aircraft all had "Capstone" which is what ADSB is now.
We also had "Pulsed" landing lights - the landing lights alternated left and right. Something like that would greatly help in these head on situations
Aircraft lights on, day or night, in congested airspace. ADSB could connect to strobes on your plane, they'd flash towards incoming (ADSB equipped) traffic.
Great reporting ! It sounded as though these aircraft were flying almost directly at each other, and with the modern technology you have explained, on board at least one, this tragic event had a great chance of not taking place, lives saved. Keep pushing , Thanks.
Unfortunately it needs to be on both aircraft.
I fault the 206 pilot. He lived in Lewiston and was well aware of those two sight seeing planes that operate out of the Northend of the lake . Common sense tells you they fly low around the lake. He should’ve apprised himself of their schedule and patterns. He flew right over their berth and could see the Beaver was gone. Without knowing where the Beaver was or making radio contact with the Beaver he should’ve maintained 2,000 ft AGL or altitude higher than the Beaver’s customary operational altitudes. I think the people thankfully perished instantly or were rendered unconscious.
Airline, commercial and private pilots combined have led thousands of people like lambs to the slaughter.
Juan,
Thank you for that report and your professional input/analysis.
God bless
Paul (in MA)
10:00 is the critical point here. The ground based repeater stations for ADS-B are nearly nonexistent throughout the mountain West. That means that an ADS-B equipped aircraft can't detect another aircraft unless the other aircraft is also equipped with ADS-B OUT.
I've been flying the Idaho backcountry and around the West for 30 years. I was weaned on forest service maps, learning the local landmarks, flying the right side of canyons and making position reports. It's good protocol and kinda fun to learn, but it's no insurance against other aircraft trying to share the same box of air you're in.
ADS-B is huge upgrade, but it's far from a complete solution right now because 1) there aren't enough ground repeater stations (and the FAA has no plans to put any more in), and 2) ADS-B OUT isn't required everywhere. Because I'm equipped with both IN and OUT, I can see other traffic that is also so equipped even down in the bottom of the canyons of the Salmon River. It's pretty amazing. But it's also just a fraction of the traffic out there.
Finally, it's fun to bash California immigrants, but the guys who I find most resistant to equipping--and even talking on the radio--tend to be locals who don't want to spend the money to equip or submit to potential surveillance/tracking by the gummint. California's got a lot of faults, but resistance to new technology and talking on the radio isn't one of them.
Thanks Juan! Welcome home
And "ostensibly" more layers of safety. Great word choice Juan.
Ironic how content "Unsuitable for all advertisers" is some of the best and most interesting content available.
Great reports, Keep up the good work, much appreciated. Safe skys.
Good stuff. Spent most of the end of my career investigating a whistleblower complaint regarding ADS-B development several years ago. I had a nice conversation at the RTCA, I personally think ADS-B and TCAS should be combined using the same ADS-B data. The result would be much higher accuracy and would eliminate the TCAS blind spots. Agree completely about requiring those carrying paid pax be required to have appropriate safety equipment.
In 2002, I lost my CFI, Andreas Pelzer in a midair in the pattern between a Beechcraft Dutchess (His plane) and a Mooney 21 (Entering the pattern at the crosswind/downwind elbow) at CRQ (Carlsbad/McClellan airport in SoCal). 3 souls lost. It took me years to muster the courage to go up again.
A thought regarding this incident: “No radar or ads-b data available” does not necessarily mean that one or both aircraft weren’t equipped with ads-b in or out. Only that it wasn’t available to accident investigators. Even with ads-b out, at 700 ft AGL there may not have been any ground stations within line of sight to receive and record data. If both aircraft were equipped with both out and in, then presumably the pilots (or at least the electronics in each aircraft) could “see” each other. Whether or not an audible traffic warning would be given would depend on the equipment in use. Since both aircraft were there to enjoy the scenery another important factor may have been division of attention inside and outside the cockpit. And for outside the aircraft division of attention between the ground and scanning for traffic. Thank you for your thoughtful presentation.
Safety first.
Thanks again for a Brilliant Breakdown
Wow ! If they can afford a plane to me 2 grand is nothing. Sure glad you made it back safe.
Keep up the great work!
It can be a high cost for some. They should develop an inexpensive ADS-B out transmitter retrofit kit and require all airplanes to have them. If you want everything integrated in the aircraft, it often requires a new transponder for older aircraft and the costs can easily get upwards of $7k. But those units typically have a lot of other useful information like weather.
I am sure the problem is moreso that there are dozens of $2000 instruments they are encouraged or required to have in the plane. This one was under ZBB.
That's a pretty ignorant statement. Just because someone *owns* an airplane, or even a car, they could have bought and paid for it long ago and couldn't afford to buy it today. 2 grand to *you* might be "nothing", but to them it is a mountain to climb. Maintenance costs, and aviation gasoline are *expensive* all by themselves.
$2000 is not entirely accurate. It is my understanding that ADS-B out requires a transponder too. Many airplanes, like mine, do not have a transponder. So it's more like $4000 to add ADS-B out. $4k is about 1/4th the value of my airplane. I do not consider spending 25% of the aircraft value 'nothing'
@@ulbuilder I haven't looked into it much but I saw a unit called a BOM that mounts the wing and has ADAHARS and ASDS-B in. There might be something out there similar that has ADS-B in/out. That unit is $2k. To have ADS-B out capability would probably still add $2k knowing how that goes.
Thanks for sharing this update with us Juan. Lake Couer d'Alene is such a beautiful Lake. There's a Beauticians school not too far from the lake and when our daughter attended the school, she did some maintenance on my wife. Well, I didn't want to stay there so I walked to the lake and spent some time watching the float planes take off and land. It was a busy place.
Thanks again Juan.
JUAN, thanks for this prelimsry sadly these are still happening , at this time in life , Cheers 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
I wonder if either aircraft even had their transponders turn on? We're all guilty of forgetting to flip our transponders to "ALT" before we depart but in my kind of business you'd be shocked at how many people just flat have theirs turned off. They call request flight following etc, we give them a squawk, a moment later we come back with "double check your transponders turned on", the pilots response... "oops yep sorry approach its on now". Probably 4 or 5 times a day in my experience. Amazing videos as usual great work. Juan Brown 2020! ;)
Dang, I took a tour of Lake Coeur d'Alene with Brooks Seaplane around five years back (before my interest in aviation grew a year or so ago). I think it was with their Cessna 206 floatplane, though I'm not sure. My dad and I were fully confident in the pilot's abilities and the plane's performance, being simple tourists, which just goes to show how essential it is for commercial tour companies and the like have to hold themselves accountable and take the effort to add things like ADSB to their planes. Any tourist wouldn't know the difference.
Thanks for the update Juan. Unfortunately, only requiring collision avoidance equipment on pay flight wouldn't have done anything to prevent this tragedy. We need to think outside the box and get inexpensive handheld collision avoidance devices to market now. All the major flight associations and govt. agencies need to huddle up and come up with a standard and publish it so manufacturers can start making them ASAP. If it flies with human on board, 2 way collision avoidance should be mandatory, period. If it flies without a human on board it need to transmit only location, altitude, and velocity. Your cell phone has much more expensive tech in it than one of these would require. They wouldn't require much power at all and could run for days(talking a simple handheld device here) transmitting short bursts of packet data every few seconds with, say a 2 mile range. There is no valid reason these aren't already required equipment. Hell one would be cheaper than a single fill of fuel. If you fly multiple aircraft, no problem, take it with you. Para motor or private jet, shouldn't matter. Enter your aircraft description/ID before takeoff and be safe. And to go a step further, since it would be gps based, you could include terrain avoidance as well.
Great idea. Too bad you can't market it. We need people who care about the reason they're making a thing, not just the profits
Great Reporting and Information Interpretation of these sad, sad, negative Airplane incidents. Prayers to those that lost their lives and their families and friends. Keep Safety First and All other reasons, Second! Thumbs Up again as usual!
Losing two Beavers in a month. Bummer. Prayers for the families.
One thing the visibility out of a beavers yes not very good. Yeah the big round engine cowling and the door, door post wing strut I fly Bi-plane‘s with better visibility
No exageration mourning the loss of that great bird too. What a singularly dear design is the Dehavilland Beaver, most especially to the Arctic regions where it shown like a champ in EVERY capacity a good bird can shine. Never again.
@@jeffwalther3935 you are correct. I live in Alaska where the Beaver and Cubs are staple aircraft. When one has crashed they can quite often be repaired and brought back to life. Super Cub frames are slowly fading away. My son works for Airframes Alaska and they have begun making brand new Cub style frames. Don't think that will be happening anytime soon with the workhorse Beaver.
@@Stony121 Harrison Ford has one that must be in just outstanding condition and great fer cross-country especially to anywhere at all. Cubs too for STOL characteristics that defy physics and make 'em probably the greatest airplane design of all time. It allows one to imagine the idea of perfection, they're that good, imho.
@@jeffwalther3935 how long will it take him to crash it?
Juan love the beard . I wish I could grow one mine won't grow in at all on my cheeks .May all the deceased R.I.P.
Good job, Juan! I can only repeat my recommendation.... Everybody should use FLARM. It's a cheap, well working alternative system.
Just great reporting, Juan - such a tragedy tho.
We've got a small operator flying a Beaver back and forth to a fishing camp near us. I was up with another friend in his float plane talking about the Beaver pilot's habit of never climbing above 500 ft or so on his runs. "Guy thinks he's saving gas but his engine is going to quit one of these days and his only option will be right under his ass. Hope for his sake it's water..." Not the same situation obviously but an equally infuriating gamble as not using radios or easily obtained safety equipment.
There is a camera based see and avoid system designed for drones. I have seen the demonstration at Oshkosh. The system includes a camera and small computer that can identify and track airborne targets.
Great reporting. Showing the picture of the paying family puts it in perspective. There is NO reason other they pilots being to f-ing cheap, that EVERYONE should not be required to have ADSB out now.
I flew in the Beaver with my Son the day before the crash. Eerily, I asked Neal about upgrading the avionics and putting in ADSB. A CTAF for lake traffic should also be implemented.
In maritime regulations, all commercial vessels have to have AIS which is the marine equivalent of ADSB. When you consider that most boats travel less than 30kts it seems crazy that airplanes can operate commercially without ADSB but boats have to have AIS.
A possible future solution is a depicted traffic pattern as used in other sightseeing areas. As agreed upon by the stakeholders, it could be up on one side of the lake and down on the other below 3000'. Depicted traffic patterns have been in use since flight training because not all aircraft are required to have radios or navigation gear and there would be a directional flow.
I've been a pilot for 30 years now, and it's inconceivable to me that two aircraft, that are being flown by trained airmen, who are alert and aware, can fly into each other. It's extremely rare.
More than 8 times EVERY year in the US!
8 times is very rare!
I fault the 206 pilot. He lived in Lewiston and was well aware of those two sight seeing planes that operate out of the Northend of the lake . Common sense tells you they fly low around the lake. He should’ve apprised himself of their schedule and patterns. He flew right over their berth and could see the Beaver was gone. Without knowing where the Beaver was or making radio contact with the Beaver he should’ve maintained 2,000 ft AGL or altitude higher than the Beaver’s customary operational altitudes. I think the people thankfully perished instantly or were rendered unconscious.
Airline, commercial and private pilots combined have led thousands of people like lambs to the slaughter.
I was starting to like the moto beard!!! Thanks for the great info!
Concur with your assessment of ADSB technology as a requirement. I've just purchased a Luscombe, I intend to include this upgrade as soon as possible.
I used to fly out of Reid Hillview airport in San Jose, California in the 1980’s. It was, and still is, a very congested airspace in the San Francisco Bay Area. On one flight I had departed RHV VFR, and was climbing to cruising altitude outside of controlled airspace and was horrified to see a Mooney descending inbound to RHV. He saw me at the same time and we both instantly managed to avoid a midair collision. He made a rapid right hand descending turn while I veered right. Way too close for comfort!!
Mooney was probably making a dangerous straight in rather than pattern approach .
At 8:50 : also remember, that 'dot' is coming at you at a high closing speed, at least 220 mph in this case. That's 352 feet per second, or a mile in 15 seconds!
Really, both flying at an average of 110mph? I'd have thought it would be higher, but I don't know anything about these specific aircraft and their usual cruise speeds, let alone what the float plane might have been doing if sightseeing.
A sight seeing plane over the lake isn’t going over 70 maybe. The southbound 206 shouldn’t have been going any faster at that altitude. 206 was also sightseeing. Still that’s a 140 mph closing rate. People died instantly or were rendered unconscious.
Good report. 10:20 Have my headphones on and the thunderclap made me turn to the window for a fast WX check.
Excellent report! Very informative!
Really excellent report. Thank you.
Amazing clear analysis, thanks.
As a professional mariner all I can say is you need some kind of range, bearing and altitude from the other aircraft, as is done at sea with just range and bearing (e.g. radar and some kind of collision avoidance system). Decreasing range and no or slight bearing change over time there will be a collision or near miss. Of course with airplanes you need the 3rd dimension, altitude. You are correct, this should be mandatory in both part 91 and part 135. Very tragic and I agree with you, this could have been avoided with the ADS-B on board. Thanks for all your aviation insight!
Totally agree with ADS-B requirements, it’s amazing how much I never saw before that I’m now aware of. ADS-B does report non ADS-B equipped aircraft if tbey’re being painted by ATC.
Jim Sorbie with a delay of several seconds
ADSB and Flight Following are the two best tools we have as General Aviation pilots. I am so unsure why people don't like to use either.
Thanks Juan. PLEASE KEEP THE BEARD! I was the project manager for the FAA ATC modernization back in the ‘90s and responsible for the redesign and integration of a new common infrastructure across all 22 ARTCC facilities. The fact that ADS-B can be equipped in any aircraft for only $2,000 makes me wonder what kinds of questionable arguments pilots use to justify skipping this life-saving investment. After all, how much value is placed on human lives?
Do you have any anecdotal input on the subject from conversations you have had with - or overheard from - other pilots on the subject? If I ever get to the point where I can afford my own aircraft, it will definitely be equipped with ADS-B. I wonder why AOPA doesn’t push for full adoption more vocally?
It's always amazing how on perfectly clear blue days, two small aircraft are always able to find the other without even trying..
Great update!! Beard looks great!!
I'm new to operating with ADS-B. Yes, I understand the complaints over the cost, and the requirements.
However, good technologies can be an advantage. The technology as implemented does indeed offer some very useful information. Playing with the avionics, I really like the benefits provided as part of the package.
The biggest advantage? Situational awareness. This is normally provided manually through flight following services using ATC and the transponder.
ADS-B pinpoints the other aircraft in your airspace brilliantly, long before you can see them.
So sad to see folks dying over this stuff. Simple (great) technology that really should be in use at all times. Good reporting Juan!
I had an incident on my first solo cross country more than 30 years ago that I will always remember. I was climbing to my cruise altitude when I looked to the right and saw a Cessna 210 headed straight for me. I dived immediately and the Cessna passed over me at around 100 ft. I don't think the other pilot ever saw me. I was lucky I was flying a piper at the time because if I was flying a Cessna the wing would have blocked my view. It's hard to realize how fast these things happen until you experience it yourself.