David Harvey- The Crises of Capitalism
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- Опубліковано 29 чер 2024
- Marxist geographer David Harvey asks: is it time to look beyond capitalism towards a new social order that would allow us to live within a system that really could be responsible, just, and humane?
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I love how any intellectual who takes an opposing view of the neo-liberal capitalist model, no matter how elequent or factual, is branded a radical.
I really wish U Tube would show a date. When things were said can be very important.
Agreed. There are clues - Greek fiscal crisis 2009
Did you see under the title, the dateline this was posted - May 6, 2010?
It's hard not to take this guy seriously.
" Wealth, it is necessary to remember, is not a static, limited quantity that can only be divided or looted ;wealth is produced ; its potential quantity is virtually unlimited. "
-Nathaniel Branden-
Read that and Jean Jacques-Rousseau "Discourse on the Origin and Basis of Inequality Among Men"
I have so far in this conversation only looked at the pure economical mechanics of capitalism. To expand it to a certain extent, and involve the real human relations, I will just briefly mention the fact that we live on a globe where 1 billion people are starving everyday, and there are enormous gaps between the rich and poor. We have about 1% of the people on the planet owning 40% of all it's wealth. This is neither necessary nor just. I think we really ought to reconsider our economic system..
Even Lenin hinted that there would NOT be total equality under Communism since different people had different talents and skills and the rule was to be "Each according to his needs".
Read Lenin's "The State and Revolution" at the end.
I am neither a capitalist nor a socialist, I don't need ideologies to think for me I can think for myself, we should use science as a method for arriving at decisions rather than peoples opinions for running society.
When money is printed to allow for added value, the present value of money does not go down, as the added value is usually an increase in productivity, so the cost of things go down. With increases of productivity more people have more money to spend, and then demand drives prices up, as does increasing population. The dollar price of something goes up, but the value in higher also, so while a car has usually been an expensive item, today's car is a miracle compared to the Model T...more..
Manufacturing was one of the life blood of the middle class. It's always been that way. Since NAFTA and CAFTA...that's changed things. You seem to think that everyone in the US are business owners and that gov getting in the way (taxes) is the reason that US people wont accept China pay rates. Absent the manufacturing sector will always cause a country to struggle to hire, no matter what economic liberties the gov allows.
@mariusvanc, Harvey's free online course, "Reading Marx's Capital," is the answer to your question. The first volume of Capital is also available online, again for free, in several places, to read along with his course. Enjoy.
Oops! I meant 7 billion, and more. However some experts (on TED, for instance) say that human population growth is slowing and will level off at about 12 billion, when a certain level of prosperity reaches into the currently less prosperous areas, which it will only do via capitalism expanding into those areas.
Hi! thanks. One way to improve vocabulary & style is to read English translations of 18th & 19th century German philosophers. Those German thinkers wrote in perfect high German & the translations were undertaken by authors fluent in both languages which enabled them to accurately copy the style & essence - the result being very high English. I recommend Kant. Improvement can also be had by reading at the Friesian School (online).
Well. I agree. I'm in my 20's, currently fascinated with the world, especially economics/corporate/business based. I must say it is mindblowing.
And regarding the majority... I think the problem we see is that people set on these biases and stereotypes and just stick to them like glue. Not willing to accept someone elses views, mainly because of being big headed.
Glad you didn't take my comment offensive! One of the few. Heh..
Keep it up, but give other people some space to be right.. :p
Anyone interested in moving beyond the capitalist system please look into The Zeitgeist Movement and The Venus Project
Innovation is the essential part of increased efficiency, the employee is trained after the fact to do something new, often not more difficult, and the training is imparted by the engineer class as the employee generally can't think very well. Society can only make work for the talentless if the idea/tech class comes up with new ideas. If you washed clothes in the river you would not think a powered washer & dryer to be "crap". If you only made pasta you would love machines that mix the dough.
@ireland2day Marxism is best used as a tool to identify the problems with free-market capitalism. Also, you have to distinguish between different schools of marxism as there are quite a few.
@MikeJGallagherJr "I simply can not advocate for a system that, seeks to make me equal, with others, man is defines his own destiny."
_____
"Each according to his need; each according to his ability." - Karl Marx
Yeah, if u look back in time people had to rent. It's just this latest generation everyone loan and buy their own. Its like its become human rights to own your house. Ofc the bank owns most of it. Most working class folks had to rent. Even the shipyards and factories put up apartments for their workers to rent. Social building of housing was also common, so if your employer didnt, some government owned housing project could rent to you often cheaply, with simple standards. But people had a roof.
...the profit comes from the idea, not the employee's labor. The employee has no right to share the profit as he/she did not contribute to the idea. The person who can follow instructions is commonly available, the idea people more rare. Machines are built to follow instructions, but machines have yet to come up with an idea. As people do want better stuff this system works well: the market is there, a minority of idea people come up with ideas, and talentless people & machines make the stuff.
a finite planet. Nr2.The Creation of money. If you take a couple of hours and read some sequences of the federal reserve's own booklet "modern money mechanics" on money creation and see for yourself the absurdity of the fractional reserve banking system, it ought to shock you. The short version: All money that exists, is created out of debt, so money=debt and vice versa. Virtually all money loaned out has to be paid back to the bank with an additional interest attached to the original amount.
Note: The I in PIGS normally stands for Italy.
What is the date of this presentation?
It benefits everyone? Well, I think that's pushing it a bit far. Tell that to the 2 billion people that are currently starving on this planet. I do agree though, that we have benefited from capitalism, and it has most likely made us develop new technologies quicker, and become a more advanced society, so as I see it, it's a step on the way. There are a couple of things though that are troublesome concerning the system's mechanisms. Nr1. It requires infinite growth, somethings that very hard on
No one is useful unless they add value in some way, so in underdeveloped nations the children tend the small animals and do chores in the home, or in Varanassi assist in cremations. The engineers are superior to all those under them, but not those over them. However it is quite common for engineers to form their own companies. Most engineering companies are run by engineers who have migrated to the highest level of abstraction, for instance, as did Bill Gates & Steve Jobs.
Darn it man, I need to get my hands on your vocabulary. (Well my own but you know.) A sentence from me is usually a single word that I haven't found yet...
And I can easily agree with people settling into the hierarchy at age 12. I noticed changes in the strength (and stubbornness) in the views of people around me around the early teen years.. I couldn't even begin to place myself within any of the groups so... well, all there is left is discover yourself i suppose.
Interesting points!
@Conenion It's true. That's is why they use more frequently the acronym PIIGS, to include Ireland.
It can work of course, as it did from the 1950s to the 1970s, but something went wrong, what exactly went wrong I cannot say. I merely understand what capitalism and its global counterpart has done to degrade our society, economy, and politics to a certain degree. No one should be asking the rich to dish out their wealth to permanently remove the prospects of proverty, because poverty can never be destroyed. However that does not give us the right to include more people below the poverty line.
well it's been 6 months since you commented, but I feel the need to reply. One reason banks have to print money out of thin air is that the population is increasing & so more money is needed. If more money was not then printed inflation would soar. So the printing causes deflation. Another reason money has to be printed is to account for the higher value of new, better goods. The money is loaned to keep people productive & honest, otherwise how would the new money be allocated?
the concepts of freedom, equality, democratic process, the purpose of money, all need to be readdressed.
You're right when you question the idea that wealth is limited. But given that fact that the lower class income, which includes the middle class, has stagnated over the course of 10 years while the income of 15000 americans has gone upwards by a staggering amount is no way to maintain a healthy democracy or a healthy economy for that matter.
If someone tries to sell you things that you don't need don't buy them. In free market capitalism the seller can only make money if you buy it from him, he does not force you to buy it.
@ipwnorcs "Harvey is a geographer....not a sociologist."
Geography is one of the social sciences. Also, for the last several years, Harvey has taught in the Anthropology Dept at CUNY. If you don't consider economics something that can be studied from an anthropological viewpoint, no offense, but you're lost.
Further, there's a sub-field within geography called Economic Geography, within which some of the finest scholarship with respect to economics is done.
@warriorprince1010 socialisim is all about the dismantaling of the state,but its also the realisation that in order to do that we must take control of the state and rebuild it to work in the interests of the working class, that includes public and private sector workers. in a capitalist state both public and private sector workers are exploited for the gain of a small elite, this small elite than try and pit worker against worker in an attempt to confuse both as to the true source of their pain
@andyl1988 Agreed. This is why I always feel compelled to look at the multiple DIVISIONS of how we're divided. We must UNITE and reach common ground. EVEN realizing that we must unite and provide a sound social and economic system is finding groups COMPETING in ideas...UGGGGGH!
Meanwhile people are suffering....
We as a society has been moving out of poverty. I don't understand how this is a bad thing. Capitalism and the free markets don't just benefit one group of people. It benefits everyone. You cannot have freedom and liberty without capitalism, but you can have capitalism and still lack freedom. There is a distinction. Stop hating on one point of the free market and start looking at the big picture. We as a society have benefited tremendously.
It has increased the human cost of providing services and goods to the citizens who can actually purchase such goods, services, asssets, whatever, and thus you see such a human cost and the reaction towards such a cost with the massive migration of Hispanic people coming into the US to seek better paying jobs. The funny thing is that globalism destroyed the Mexican economy and is the reason for the displacement of thousands of migrant workers. This same situation applies somewhat to
@johnTconover "How can it work ....produce?" Why do individuals choose/try to specialize in certain functions. It is because they are relatively more efficient in said function than in others. The individual outsources final good/services in which he is relatively inefficient. The default is all internal production. Why would said agent deviate if it was detrimental. This is so freaking simple. Seriously, what dont you grasp about high school level economics.
@johnTconover How can it work .......the very goods they produce? This has persisted for centuries. "Sufficiently rational" individuals are risk averse to non-diversifiable(systematic) fluctuations because individuals prefer to smooth out their allocations(inter/intra). Now do you understand that why it is "normal" to obtain a premium if you tie yourself into an action that has systematic risk.
HI! Please note that your counterpart in 1930 would have made the same pessimistic projections, saying perhaps that there is not enough wood so that every one can have chairs with extra chairs for schools, community halls etc. But you would not have know that the resin chair would be invented one day, which now proliferate Earth. In 1970, decried air conditoners, not knowing that their efficiency would go up & up & not need Freon. Are you sure that solar cell efficiency won't go up & up, hmmm?
on a side note, City of London is only a small part of London.
The path to profit is not only dependent on an expanding population, but that can help. The path is dependent on powered machinery. Auto makers do not need an expanding population as there are still billions without cars. Most resources are not scarce, but may be in certain regions. What is needed is fuel, of any kind, so that resources can have value added via innovation. As some rare earths used in small motors have become scarce, engineers dreamed up work-arounds that don't need rarities.
@johnmickle As I said before, Prof. Harvey teaches at the City University of New York (CUNY). That's a public institution where tuition is around $5000 per year. So what you're saying isn't accurate. Yes there are excellent private institutions where tuition is very expensive but there are also excellent public institutions where tuition is affordable.
it does inflate the currency. Real value creation is decoupled from the creation of money, so the more money there is, the more debt there is, even if we get a large number of new businesses, and thereby create real new value. Starting a new business usually requires fresh capital from the bank i.e more money made from debt is put into circulation. Every loan made by the bank is new money, whether it's a mortgage loan or a business loan. Of course, some debt is required as long as we---
@johnTconover The Technocracy stance is a hybrid generalization of Malthusian/Marxist ideas. A generalization of Malthusian idea in the same way as he neglected the cross effects of capital investment and innovation increasing labor productivity. A generalization of Marxian idea in that there is an objective measure of value that is tied into the production process and not derived from the subjective valuation of agents.
Both individuals were incorrect.
Interresting thoughts David, not sure how humanity would be without capitalism.
Progress is not a disease, it is the opposite. It seems to me you don't fully appreciate how hard life was for virtually everyone in the good old days..you could die from a cut! Life expectancy was short. All the children worked. Yes, the measure of progress appeals to all of humanity, & you are a Schlumpeter intellectual, a critic of the system that has made life so easy for you.
@zzzzJAGJEETzzzz I know you already have heard a lot of this, but in the US they make a big deal about universities being able to choose whoever they want to give lectures.
Totally sustainable for 7 million. Don't be a cargo-cultist. What people want is being produced more efficiently all the time. For instance, everyone want's chairs at home, school, work, bus stops, doctor's office, auditorium, etc. We could not make all those chairs from wood. Now the resin chair is ubiquitous & cheap to produce (often made from recycled plastic). Virtually all metals are recycled. Old doors from S.Asia are now popular in the West as tables. The led light is a savior.
I've never heard of anyone buying a new washer every 5 years! Washers tend to last 20 years. Even the rich don't buy every 5 years, as they tend to buy the highest quality washers for their servants. Engineers of all types are the #1 most creative class - Life of Pi was an engineering marvel - the young man was not in alifeboat with a tiger, neither was the lifeboat adrift in an ocean, neither were there any flying fish nor meercats.
That interest doesn't exist as part of the money supply, so the banking practice itself of course steadily has to pump more money made from debt into the system to continuously keep paying of this debt. Needless to say, this of course creates an enormous inflation.and we have these "booms" and "busts". That's what you get when you create money out of thin air and think you can get away with it.
Actually the rare earths for cell phones are not in short supply, however China has most of them and keeps most of them for use in products manufactured in China. When the price is high enough you can be sure engineers will come up with a work-around. No one really approves of waste, but today, me thinks you not up to date, as so much is recycled it's just wonderful. All autos & tires are recycled most places, ships are dismantled and smelted, and few metals make to the dump. ..more...
The other factor you need to include is an idea, investment, and a product. So, what product did you have in mind for the US manufacturing, that China isn't making for us already?
My conceptual model for an economic system architecture that that would produce fairness and justice in society was published in 2013.
gold does not ensure the stability or ensure the confidence in markets required to keep them from collapsing. The Great Depression did not occur after FDR took us off the gold standard, it happened before.
I second the other reply to your post - no one forces you to buy anything, except in USA you have to buy auto-insurance & soon health insurance - both non-capitalist, non-free market forcings. And there are far more than a few things that make your life easier, you just take them for granted & don't count them, like dental implants which you will need one day. Does a house count a one of those "few"...not if you consider every part that goes into it & the huge supply chains that bring it to you.
I won't argue that we shouldn't spend money on defense, but I would consider 23% of the budget($856.5 billion) to be a considerable amount of money, but enough said about that. Inflation however, is a constant. Every single additional dollar pumped into the economy, steals value from the money already in circulation, if it creates value or not. That is because money isn't based on the value of resources, money is based on money, i.e DEBT.
Yes, obviously only those operating a vehicle on public roads need auto insurance. And I agree that the health insurance mandate is utterly unacceptable. My point to Manos Seferidis was that in capitalist nations, even in India, no one is forcing anyone to buy anything, and so such a claim was false and so not a legit indictment of capitalism or even consumerism which is totally voluntary.
The fractional reserve practice used by virtually every central bank in the world, creates more debt through loans, than we have resources to back it up with. If we did, we wouldn't have this enormous expanding debt. For every transaction made in the banking system, about ten times of that amount can be created out of thin air. I do personally think it's a bit unsettling that all money in existence is made from debt. And I believe this "house of cards" will eventually come tumbling down....
but even when prices don't go down, value has usually gone up, so net effect is zero. We may note that the price of milk has gone up, but how much of that is ice cream & cheese? Ready availability of ice cream& cheese is a value added to the society - it is richer. Some milk is held off-market while curing into cheese, driving down milk supply & thus driving up it's price & ice cream requires freezing, driving demand for energy. Dairy farmers withhold supply when price going down..oh so human!
I don't think you understand what I mean when I say US production. This is addressing your supply and demand theory. The demand is in the US consumer. The supply is in CHINA! The liberty of our laws allows the legal person, the corporation, to move to other counties. You can't have true global liberty and not take the bad with the good.
...we know that printing too much money causes inflation. But that only happens when the print is more than is needed by a normally functioning economy, like when failed states print money. The Fed has been backfilling the shortage of cash, which hasn't worked that well cuz successful businesses borrowed & then invested outside USA borders, fueling Asian boom. But pendulum is swinging & investment cash is leaving Asia for USA. Social programs paid for by gov borrowing do not create added value..
It is the idea of the product & it's efficient production that allows for profit, the employee just follows instructions as always. The employee's workload remains the same, or gets easier, perhaps more tedious & boring, but still always following instructions. The path to profit is a new trail blazed by the idea & engineer class heading for the the buyer's dollar, who may be paying the same price, or lower for something of greater value than the same dollar could buy the previous year(s).....
Ahem. Workers do not create surplus. The surplus is created by engineers (getting their clues from scientists)who figure out ways for workers to work more efficiently without requiring much more from the worker than that required 200 years ago: "follow this set of instructions". Yes, we do have high-tech workers now, for instance the people managing networks & such, xray & MRI techs, but still they are only following instructions. Should we not advance at all?
Growth does cost lives. For every "winner" there are multiple "losers." A loser doesn't necessarily stay a loser if they keep on, but the system overall isn't able to absorb everyone. Ultimately, there will be people who end up homeless, broken, and eventually dead. Most of those people are people you never see because they are competing on a world stage.
The system of capitalism people argue against is a global one. Think globally, and you can see the true cost of capitalism.
Small correction: everyone, rich and poor, ends up dead. Which is actually not such a small point in this discussion. The hoarding of excessive wealth at the expense of everyone else I believe has to do with people believing they will live forever.
Thank you for posting...but I wonder just how "radical" Harvey is, unless reading and using Marx is de facto radical.
And basic economics also suggest you need to produce a product, correct? Since the 1980s, what has the US produced the most? I'll wait for your answer...
@warriorprince1010 Actually, we haven't met. I imagine leftists all look alike, so your confusion is forgiven. So that aside, statism as a blanket term doesn't mean much. Socialism and feudalism don't have much in common, and even if you say they share 'statism' in common, you have to accept that the term doesn't take the same form in either social system. The same is true for the other systems you listed too.
Also, unemployment has little to do with high tax or government policy. See Norway.
@warriorprince1010 I'd beg to differ; capital and the ownership of property seems to be responsible for the good majority of inequality throughout the world. I mean, that's where the whole concept of class comes into play...
"As advocates of laissez-faire capitalism, Objectivists are opposed to any legislation that abridges the freedom of production and trade. We are, therefore, opposed to the " right-to-work " laws.
-Barbara Branden-
@ipwnorcs And yet he is a very good sociologist!
@Laoch111 Enough is enough, but we're lacking organization. It's almost as if we've been organized by institutions, society, and culture for so long that people have forgotten how to organize things, or ourselves.
@TheOzomahtli I think the working class likes a high standard of living too much to rise up against capitalism.
...and btw, FDR's New Deal architect and Treasurer Morgenthau openly admitted to their Keynesian failure after 8 years:
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...I want to see people get a job. I want to see people get enough to eat...I say after eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started....and an enormous debt to boot!"
I realize that the population growth requires an increase in the money supply, but I also believe that what is our banking practice today, makes that increase larger than necessary, and thus inflate the currencies to the point where it's getting unhealthy for the general population. How inflation would soar without more money being printed, and how printing more deflates the currencies, I don't quite understand??? As long as we have a currency without any real resource backing it,
Like David Harvey explains about the compounded percentage of growth capitalism needs in annual terms. It is IMPOSSIBLE to achieve infinite growth when tangible capital is fixed. That's why you get financial bubbles which pop. The next financial bubble will likely be the emission market like David Harvey explains, -/ I agree.
"something like 40 000 new laws last year alone, was it? how's that working out for ya?"
Not sure what you were implying. I'm doing fine economically and well diversified, in spite of the laws. How you doing? Bunkered up in some log cabin?
@supahsekzy It would appear that way. That's why almost nothing seems to be done about it, I guess; empathy apparently disappears when all the bills are suddenly paid.
Government debt is another matter. Government debt, if too large, will cause inflation, for instance, see the good yield of Venezuelan bonds & resultant inflation in Venezuela. Excessive govt debts are usually caused by social spending in excess of revenue, and war. That money does enter the economy, minus the interest that must be paid, so a dollar may become $0.80. Social programs, for the most part, piss away money. The net result is the same as a lessening of productivity & efficiency.
Please tell us how you know that "much" of capital was acquired by "ethically questionable means"? "Much" would be interpreted by most people to mean more than 50%, perhaps 70%. You would be more accurate to say "some" instead of "much". yet no one knows, & your ethics may not be the same as others. If you want to impose your ethics on others willy-nilly, then are you fair enough to allow that others will want to impose theirs on you?
No... I believe we have to dive into the social programs, and figure out where the money is flowing... Funny thing is that many people don't seem to mind paying the vast amount of money spent on defense and the military...
No... That is why it is superior but not a description of what it actually is. Can I guess from your statement that you mean a dream alternative? One you hope to come up with at a later date?
Excuse me if I don't shudder in the face of your awesomeness.
relate to a monetary economy, but I believe we need some sort of resource backing it, to slow down the inflation and make the system more stable. Considering the social programs, it's of course a shame about the parts of that, that doesn't work in one way or another, but what should we do? Cut them out? Everything is fine and dandy as long as people are healthy, but what if you get sick, and aren't able to work? Should you be kicked out on the curb because you didn't earn a lousy welfare pay?..
Regarding, "human nature or economic realities." I really don't think you want to unleash the forces of "human nature" in your libertarian dream world. I think you might regret it.
If you look at a chart covering the US money supply and compare it to a chart of the household debt, both charts from 1950-2008, how interesting it is to see that they are virtually the same. If value creation would do the trick like you say, and balance the economy, the trends wouldn't look like this. To make it even a tiny bit worse, lets throw in the total Credit/Debt, that's $50 Trillion... Now, if Money equals Value, then why the hell do we have a debt of this size?
You didn't answer my question. What product has the US produced the most since the 1980s?
Bombs?
Yes, I have read lots of Marx. Who mentioned the USSR? I didn't.
Also, Christianity is not just the 'theory' of Jesus. But also the religion that followed. It is possible to look to Judeo-Christian theology as having a large affect on Anglo culture without directly using the sayings and teachings of Christ.
Either way, Marx's assumptions almost invariably turn out to be wrong. Again and again and again.
Defense spending is not that big a part of USA budget, but people are OK with it cuz they want to be safe. Weakness invites aggression in this wonderful world of ours. When the Fed Res prints money it is loaned to the banks, which then loan it to individs & business, collecting with interest more than they lent out, and then they use most of that money to repay the Fed. Essentially the economy is put on a treadmill, making people work to create the added value to justify the printing ...
It's a world of alienated people, let's see and do something what could be done out of this alienation,shall remain the Revolutionary goal
@shadowgeyser
I just watched another speech by Harvey(watch?v=YYQb0fthNfI). The guy is a full-blown socialist who clearly hasn't read or understood any of the serious criticisms that have been offered against socialism. It was worse than expected.
I think the best way to grasp what the fundamental problems of socialism are is to listen to Salerno's lecture: The Debate On The Socialist Calculation Debate(watch?v=rZ2uncqukn4).
"extortion is illegal....unless the state does it, then it's called taxation."
One of the major problems with the way libertarians view money is that they dream of a world were they could get rid of FIAT currency and the FED. But it doesn't matter if you trade gold, apples, cows, or fairy dust. Someone or group always ends up with the majority of the wealth/assets. This is just the nature of power. It concentrates.
You complain about the legality of taxation. Yet, you offer no real solutions.
We never left Keynes...what's he talking about. At what point have we adopted an Austrian school system....everything that's going on is Keynesian based logic. Why rule out something (Hayek) when it's not been tried.
@Jerrrr
statism is really more a capitalist phenomena, before the industrial reoluution which facilitated the growth of capitalism, states where mere loosely determined and frequently shifting boundaries. i couldt concur feudalism n capitalism share statism
@mind3l3vation Yes, there are community colleges that are a more economical alternative, I go to one and still had to get a loan to cover tuition. But it's not just private institutions that charge an unaffordable tuition. State universities are often tens of thousands per year. I'm just saying as a WHOLE the American education system is falling behind Europe, where in many countries it is free.
@warriorprince1010 Ummm... do you know what poverty is? It's "the state of one who lacks a usual or socially acceptable amount of money or material possessions." On another note, I'd agree that the government does nearly-nothing to address poverty, but the government definitely isn't the cause of poverty.......
This could theoretically cause someone cognitive dissonance.
Hey you gotta admit that EeeScape is correct. Bailouts got nothing to so with socialism. We got this corporate socialism in Norway that some refer to state capitalism. It's like taking socialism and capitalsm and mix them up into a corrupt mess. For you its just easy to label whatever YOU think is bad, as socialism. But your wrong, and socialism is well defined in many books. Very powerful repressive government, state ownership,etc. Soviet Union was socialist for example, rather than communist.
What's interesting is that one, you make comparison between the mafia and the government. Well, that might fit in the world of utopian absolutes in the mind of the fairy tale libertarians. But you might want to learn a bit about the terms "legal" and "illegal." Yes, civil societies use the law to rule. Now, you might not agree with "Rome's" laws, but they are distinguishable from the common criminal and you should know that already...
@johnTconover ... Thank you for you ignorant rant. Where have I ever come off as a Old/New Monetarist or an Old/New Classical? I am performing doctoral work in complexity economics/financial economics.
@johnTconover Um.. if you knew about complexity economics... it exists far form equilibrium. I just used arguments from normal economics because its much easier to understand.
Why are you assuming practically zero innovation in our ever diversifying portfolio of energy strategies? This is an extremely ridiculous assumption.