I like the fact that Champions of Midgard and Raiders of the North Sea expansions had an updated box to help hold the expansions plus base game. I find this fine if the original game was in a small box. Plus I would rather them do this then give me an over sized box that has barely any components with way to much space for expansions. I may not want the expansions. The FFG LCG games are the exception to the rule for me on this. They need to go back to the bigger original LCG box rather then the small one or provide a bigger box like the Smashup Big Geeky Box.
One of my future projects is to build new wooden boxes for games like Cosmic Encounter and Blood Rage where it is just impossible to fit all the pieces into the original box.
Yeah, Brett. I've used 2 different boxes for Elder Sign: A Michael's Photo Box from before I got Omens in Ice to when I got Omens at Sea, to a spare Ticket to Ride Box after I put all of the North American stuff in the Europe box. Maybe a trains sized box would fit everything if FFG announces 2 more expansions for Elder Sign...They're totally going to do more expansions after Sea, aren't they.
I think it's still better to have an appropriately sized box for the base game then release the expansion in a big enough box to hold the expansion and the base game. If you don't want the expansion, your base game box is still appropriately sized for the game. The one that comes immediately to mind is Pandemic: On The Brink. It has slots/storage for everything from Pandemic and the On The Brink expansion.
Pathfinder Adventure Card Game goes too far with making boxes that fit all the expansions. The problem is that the expansion boxes are flimsy and terribly designed. Putting the cards back into the box can actually damage them because the expansion boxes have a lot of wasted space and don't have any inserts to support the cards. However, the main game's box is designed specifically to hold those expansion boxes in a lop-sided way. To make matters worse, it's really annoying and difficult to separate an expansion from the base game. Because of all this, the game box is twice as big as it needs to be. Even a full box with all the expansions has a lot of wasted space.
Kickstarter exclusives shouldn't be a thing. It targets people's fear of missing out in order to get them to invest in something they normally wouldn't.
My #1: Playtest your rulebooks! They're written by people who know how to play the game. They have to be. But don't JUST have people who know how to play look it over. Give it to a group who doesn't already know the rules. Then DON'T stand over them and answer questions. You won't be able to do that when you start selling your game! Tell them you'll be back in an hour, and they need to write down what they find unclear. Do that several times with different groups, and then fix those issues. I have serveral games that are nigh unplayable (Mistfall and Kitsune come prominently to mind) because the rulebooks were so poorly writen. Maybe they're complete, maybe they're not, but either way they're terribly unclear.
Agreed. For some reason Baseball Highlights 2045's rulebook was pure garbage to me, and I wound up just selling it off. Vids online seem to clash with what the rule book said and I wound up giving up and trading it off. I hate terrible rulebooks. Cry Havoc is another
@@TheHouseofPanda played my first game of terraforming mars a couple of weeks ago and we didn't find any problems with the rules. Once we started playing we had to look up a couple as we went but it was all there and it was pretty hard to misinterpret
Bought used copy of 1st Ed. Panzer Grenadiers. Almost got through rule 3.0. NOPE. ????? Skipped around rulebook....garbage. Supposedly 4th Ed. Rules fix...(what..all...some...a few) the sins. now I have games I have played, games I haven't gotten to yet, and games that huh???? box is opened look at components n rules and... nope. Nonsense puts you on the bottom of my playlist. Maybe in 2021....
GET "the amazing Cthulhu Holmes!" with the KS expansion exclusive +3 to 99 years, 1-20 players, 15 min. business card sized rule book! GET IT NOWWW!! HYPE HYPE HYPE
Though Tom obviously did not mentioned it when he talked about the number of players, I think it is important to highlight the case of the games advertised as playable solo/solitaire, when in reality is just a way to (in some case literally) learn the rules in order to play it with more people. While I can understand that solo/solitaire rules usually require some adjustments, and are therefore added at the end in a special section, if a publisher lists a game as 1 to X players, I expect the game to be fully playable if I exclusively play it solitaire.
Even if it's the sort of Beat Your High Score that I'm not fond of, I'd definitely agree with that, though I don't mind multihanding a co-op (Ideally, I think, co-ops would list player count and character count - 1-4 players controlling 2-4 characters (Pandemic), 1-4 players controlling 4 (sometimes 3 or 6) characters (Mice and Mystics), 1-8 players controlling 1-8 characters (But you probably only ever want to use 3 or 4 characters unless you have more than 4 players) (Arkham Horror), whatever...)
Totally agree. I also don't mind that much the multihanding co-op in games like Zombicide: Black Plague or Death Angel, but don't like the beat your own score that much. The worst offender, however, is still the "learn to play by playing solitaire."
Absolutely on your worst offender - If the solo mode is designed to teach me how to play, don't advertise it as being playable solo. It isn't, you just made a solo tutorial for your multiplayer game, any more than a target practice learn the controls area in an online only, multiplayer only, video game is a single player mode in that. As I said, while I don't like beat your high score, if that's the solo mode, fair enough, it's not a solo mode that I'm going to enjoy, but it is a fully fledged solo mode, and there are people who enjoy that style of solo play, and more power to them.
Listening to this anew in the present. When Tom said "no more paper money!" I was prepared to say "But what about Millennium Blades?! It's awesome in that!" Glad to see that he later stated the same thing!
Hey guys, I appreciate the new layout. I think this is some things that could that could improve the new layout. - Game table instead of black table (Dice tower logo in the middle of all 3) - Backsplash should be redesigned to show either dice tower (full name) or not have it at all. Having just tower distracts. - Sound should be better. A lot of echo. - Need more lighting. You guys are dim. - Next indiegogo campaign, you guys need like a super uber amazing camera. :) Just critical criticism but I do love the show. I know there are lots of changing to do. I cant wait to see this studio continue to blossom. Thanks guys!
To stop box and insert designs issues publishers should all look at Mechs vs Minions. Its by far the best game box I have. Everything fits securely back in the box with no wasted space and the inserts keep it all secure during transport.
Stop making inserts that fit only unsleeved cards! I like to sleeve cards in my games, as long as shuffling the cards is required. Some companies are really good at making inserts for sleeved cards, but most are not.
This genre of list actually sums up the biggest current problem with many game published in the last few years. The fixation with top notch art and production quality has pushed the publication of glossy super-produced games with awesome art and fantastic components (yes minis). But many of these games themselves are ill conceived concepts that should have been strangled at birth. Prices have skyrocketed as a result of this sea change in attitude toward 'what is an acceptable finish.' The Dice Tower holy trinity telling the faithful that average artwork is bad, makes it so. Food Chain Magnate is an awesome game with plain artwork. With power comes responsibility guys, artwork is not a top 10 thing that publishers get wrong. Many small publishers cannot afford to pay top dollar for art for a 1000 unit print run. Such a negative attitude is a question of taste anyway and will only close the small guys down.
Dang it. I was just about to release my series of games. From Shindig Games, the world's best game series ever: 1. Legends of Shindig, 2. Shindig Worlds, 3. Shindigs in Space, 4. Ready Set Shindig, 5. Defend the Shindig, and 6. Zombishindig Each game is for 1-7 people, ages 4-99, and each game plays 15-35 minutes. Easy to learn and hours of fun in every game. Join in in the Kickstarter and get TONS of exclusives, including 4.5 Shindig Madness, the Cthulhu expansion for the world's most amazing racing game. I illustrated everything myself, I wanted a fun and whimsical look. All three (Tom, Zee, and Sam) have once said, "...great..." Oh well, back to the drawing board.
Sir, I cannot wait for your first set of errata for your fabulous games. Can we expect plastic inserts, that will hold all but four cards, when they are not shrink-wrapped anymore?
Already done - and it's even very good - "A Study in Emerald" is based on a Neil Gaiman story where Sherlock Holmes lives in a world where the Old Ones have awakened and rule over humanity
I run a high school game club. Publishers need to stop using sexually exploitative imagery in their games. My club is mostly girls, but regardless of gender, it's embarrassing to have to explain why the Snake Clan in Blood Rage isn't wearing the typical attire necessary for combat.
+IQ encodoc Yeah or, respect the fact that this comment section is a place for people to voice their complaints about what publishers are doing and that you shouldn't try to tell someone that their complaint is invalid or, more accurately, "absurd".
@@bill_the_butcher Everyone can have an opinion but when your opinion includes an attack against another person it stops being okay. Your first reply to the OP accused them of having "feelings of entitlement", your second reply to me calls me a "hypocrite". In just two posts you established that you have a pattern of behaviour where you can't actually debate the opinion without attacking the person behind it.
I agree. I am so tired of seeing artwork that was targeted towards boys in puberty. Rant incoming. One thing are the impossible proportions, another the half-nakedness and the third the absolute impracticality. It really irks me up when I see the "tribal huntress" with large breasts who wears basically a loincloth and a very thin piece of cloth to cover her nipples. First, you kind of want at least your legs covered, so that you don't get scratches or blisters from maybe poisonous plants you are walking through. Second, breasts need support during physically demanding activities. Especially when they have at least a medium size. And running around in nature is one such activity. Not having that support ****** hurts.
Miniatures. There, I said it. I don't have the time nor the money to get into the miniatures aspect of the hobby, so I have a bunch of games with just grey plastic figures. I would love it if they'd just make really nice standees, like the ones in Dead of Winter, reduce the price of the box, and have miniatures you could buy on the side. Or have the standees on the side. I'd pay a fair amount of additional money for standees for Shadows of Brimstone or Mansions of Madness.
Think it depends on the game. Usually epic dungeon crawl games with nasty monsters work best with miniatures. Standees is too flat to see properly when people are sitting on every side of the table. In Dead of Winter, you are not very attached to survivors nor are zombies complex or threatening enemies. Even with the expansion, the super zombies do nothing until you attack them.
I totally get your perspective, but it's hard for me to call the standees in Dead of Winter "really nice standees." That said, more and more games are coming out with pre-painted standees (like the new fourth edition of Fury of Dracula.) I'd also keep in mind that you can pay people to paint minis for you, which might be an option if you're willing to spend the money for it as mentioned (and if it's a game that's worth the investment for you.)
Honestly, the box size one is hard. When you print and ship components, your punch-out sheets might be 5"x10". So you need a box that can accommodate 10" long components which tend to be 11"x9" or so. But once they are punched the'd fit in a 5"x10" box. To be honest, I have been agonizing over this very thing. How do I fit our game into a smaller box. But the longest component is 10" so that is what is setting us up to use a large box and I know that as soon as the pieces are punched out, they'll fit in a smaller one and Zee, Sam, and Tom are going to "Hate Us" (tm)
Could you do a list on top 10 things publishers should be doing, or striving to achieve. The box is an obvious one, but maybe msrp? player boards (paper vs cardboard vs plastic)? component quality (releasing a deluxe and a standard version)? inserts (foam vs cardboard vs plastic vs wood)... working with companies to help design these inserts and maybe taking a cut of the profits? watch it played by the game designers or play testers, could make a making of the board game like they do for movies to inspire others / lessons learned / actually showing the care that was put into a game? print and play demos? get feedback during the making of the game by the public (treading carefully) but if the video game industry can provide feedback and patch the game, why can't the community say that you need to stop with the zombie theme little R&D engaging forums.. transparency can be a good thing. storing the components (plastic molds, bags plastic/felt/leather, plastic rigid containers).
@Sam: You already cannot buy V-Commandos in game stores in the US because the manufacturing cost is so high that the price would not work in the retail channel. Stuffing both expansions into the game would REALLY increase the cost. I think V-Commandos is at a manageable price point, and if you like the game you can pick up the expansions.
Glad to see the new setup for the videos. Could I recommend moving some lighting to the foreground? The backdrop is lit nicely, but you guys look like you are sitting in a bit of shadow compared to the background so the light balance looks off. Also, a tablecloth may help tamp down the echo generated by the flat table surface. Lots to look forward to in the new location!
The best way to fix #3 No Picture of Setup. I think is to put the setup of the game on the inside of the box cover. That I have seen on a lot of the older games I played as a kid.
Here's the top 2 things that are ruining board games. 2) Kickstarter - all the extras and add-ons and exclusives... Then you got anybody and everybody flooding the market. For the one actual good game out of ten that come from kickstarter, it proved to be an overall detriment to board gaming in general. 1) IPs - the local board gaming shop used to be really cool, but now it's hardly distinguishable from the Disney Store. The whole front of the store now is Marvel, Star Wars, and other Disney products. They aren't good games for the most part... but you've heard of them so they get top billing.
New editions of games that change a few components, but also change card backs so future expansions won't work with your older game. King of Tokyo, cough cough
For the big empty boxes thing, they could easily make them like the individual scenarios for the Arkham Horror LCG look (the single deck ones), but bigger. You have the big front picture for shelf exposure, but the actual deck size is way small. They could do the same for big games. Have a big sheet of paper/cardboard as a front face, and behind the actual sized smaller box where you keep the game after opening. Imagine a box the size of Elder Sign, with a sheet of cardboard the size of the Eldritch Horror box in front all wrapped in plastic that you can afterwards get rid of to keep the smaller version. You could probably even keep it as a poster and hang it somewhere if you like it.
I have one that is similar. I don't like when a 2 player game is advertised as 2-4 because you can play in partners, just for the sake of extending the player count, but not changing the game at all. It's a 2 player game, not a game where 2 people discuss and make a move than one person could have made. You could really extend ANY game by declaring that. Just imagine: "Carcassonne is 10 players. In groups of two, you draw a tile and decide together where to put it..."
Wait your going to jump on kick starter exclusives when dice tower is putting out tons of promos that are hard to come by? Any one seen a copy of the Scythe dice tower promo?
Tellgryn they are talking about Kickstarter exclusives that add to game play or change the game. Tom even states "give me an exclusive character that looks different but is available in an expansion later". Exclusive artwork etc.
Every promo The Dice Tower makes changes the game play in all the games, some even change it to the point it is a major change of game play. 99.9% of the people only can get the hottest of the dice tower or kickstarter exclusives on ebay. Do not make a video about exclusives when your company is just as guilty with it's promos.
I agree on almost everything except the "black bordered cards". The thing about white bordered cards is that they tend to get yellowish in the long run. Black has its own cons (e.g. finger print magnets) but I like them anyways, besides I'll be sleeving all of them either with white or black borders. I guess it boils down to personal preference. Btw nice top 10 list. Cheers! 🍻
1. Exclusives or extremely limited runs are dealbreakers. Whenever I see a games with expansions that you can't get anymore, I pass. Kickstarter exclusives are the worst in this. 2. Write good rulebooks. Sand down your rulebook so it only contains the rules succinctly and an FAQ section (that covers all scenario's that may come up). Add a picture of the game after it has been setup with a legend next to it. I like fluff, but not when it obscures the rules. Put that stuff in the back or in a separate booklet. 3. Optimise language usage and symbology. If the language or symbols aren't intuitive, I'm not likely to get into your game and I won't introduce my friends to it. 4. Don't save on components. I put cards into sleeves and certain tokens in cases, but I don't want to be forced to handle your game with gloves, tweezers, etc. And don't add stickers on components when you can just print it on there. 5. Stop saving on the insert/storage. When your game is a nightmare to store, I'm never going to touch it after playing it the first time. 6. I pass on strange box sizes/shapes. If the game doesn't fit in my storage, it isn't coming home with me. 7. Learn to market your game correctly. Make sure it is clear what your game is, who it's for, and that it exists, otherwise I won't buy it. 8. False marketing should be illegal. Be accurate in what you advertise. Number of players, playtime, etc. all need to be clear and correct. Don't stretch the playercount and don't measure game length by the time of designers playing the game. 9. Make the game attractive. If the game you're selling looks ugly then I'm less likely to pick it up. This is part of the reason I sold my copy of Terraforming Mars. 10. Reprints. Make sure the game is available, especially when expansions for it are available, and release upgrade packs if a new edition comes out that doesn't revise the entire game (like Arkham Horror 2nd vs. 3rd edition).
Holy Crap, I feel like I know the exact game Sam was talking about for his number 1. I was a playtester for (kickstarter game that shall remain nameless) and I straight up told the publisher, "Look, this game has been done better 2 TIMES before! This game should NOT be made. It is NOT good." And they basically said, "Nah we are going to add useless miniatures to this bad game and sell it for double the price." And they did. And it sold. And it made my heart sad.
This type of video is a fun one to watch since a lot of us can agree with this stuff. When publishers do things that don't jive well with customer experience, it is because they have some sort of competing motivation that overrides good sense. I agree with all of the top 10s here except for the black bordered cards. A lot of games don't use black borders but choose to make the card art, either front or back, to the edge of the card. Often times this looks aesthetically better than having a stark white border especially with certain themes but I do get that it is easier to recognize wear. This is just something customers have to deal with as it is a physical product and not an electronic one and sleeving is the best option so far. I think publishers can do a solid for customers by providing sleeves either in or separately from the game.
Agree with the stop making paper money... except for Firefly. The money in that game is great (even Tom said so in his review, though he seems to have forgotten). People like the paper money in that game so much that they even made a recent add on for the game that made the paper money larger and in bigger bills, lol.
The thing that I don't like is when there are NO inserts and I just have to put pieces into the box in baggies...they just get tossed around the box when it isn't/shouldn't be necessary.
This may be my favorite Top 10 of yours yet, and I've been watching since they were single composite lists of 10! Everyone was so supportive of others selections in this one! :D
Mediocre/Bad Art: Totally agree. Art is a game's foot forward. Make it good. Expansions in the Base Game: This is the board game equivalent of Day 1 DLC. And That's terrible Day 1 Errata: Wow, I keep agreeing with Sam Symbology: ... I feel like the last person on earth who actually likes the symbols on games like Race for the Galaxy. Cthulhu: I love Cthulhu. I own a ton of Cthulhu games, and probably own more Lovecraftian games than any other single game. I gravitate towards the more bizarrely Cthulhu themed games rather than "Investigators versus elder gods" too -- such as Cthulhu Wars or Fate of the Elder Gods where you play as the Old Ones. I'd kill for a Lovecraft game based around his Dreamland stories. Yet I do feel that there's too much "Follow the Leader" of FFG's Arkham Horror, and since I like my Cthulhu theme thick, I feel like a disservice is done by shoehorning it in. Let Cthulhu sleep in his sunken city of R'lyeh -- it says something when Smash Up, whose point is having everything meme-worthy, makes fun of this by calling it "The Obligatory Cthulhu Expansion" Black-bordered cards: As a Magic: the Gathering player, White Borders get dirty faster than Black Borders wear. But maybe it's just WotC's production process. I agree 100% on "Don't assume I'm going to sleeve my cards". There's only one game other than a TCG I've sleeved and that's Mystic Vale, which comes with sleeves and MUST be sleeved to work. But it comes with the freeking sleeves! Stop Lying: ... this really should go without saying and it's sad that it doesn't. As far as timers go, I feel like learning games always take time+50% to time+100%. Oddly, I've only ever seen one game overestimate its play time: Tsuro's box says it takes 15-20 minutes (some editions, I believe, say 30 minutes) and I've rarely had it go over 10. Creative Packages & Ill-fitting boxes: As long as it stacks or fits well on a shelf I'm good with it. So the "Forbidden" series tins, fine. A couple cylinders, OK. Maybe an octogon if it is basically the standard square box with the corner sheared off. But overall, yeah, there are problems. Setup in the rulebook: OK, there are a lot of rulebook quibbles, and I want freeking diagrams. TI3 does this well. Another thing I'd want is, if there's no full setup diagram because it's a card game or something, show a picture of the components so I know which card backs are action cards and which ones are objective cards and which ones are Flubacca cards!
Anonymous John Doe by the end of my first game fo Race for the Galaxy, I completely understood the iconography. No problem there. Same with 7 Wonders. Small World on the other hand, not a chance. I have to look at the rules every time.
I love this background! It's very clean and professional! That said, Zee's #5/tom's #9 (no picture on box) and then the Sam's #8 (expansions with base game) are two of my biggest pet peeves.
I've got one major gripe against publishers, especially this past year. Please, PLEASE print enough copies of a game. I know it can be hard to anticipate market demand, and it can be scary to risk printing too many copies of a game, but games don't usually spoil. If it was worth publishing at all, you WILL sell all of it eventually. It's worse, though, if you already know a game is well-received and you fail to print enough of it. If you know your game is going to be on every "Top Ten of 2016" list in December, there's going to be demand for it in January. Please don't make me wait until May to get my hands on it.
Definitely agree with the box to actual game ratio... DIXIT has big ass boxes but all it is is a deck of cards... Like... did it really need those extra 10 inches of box? If I open a box and the pieces take up less than half the box, I will generally just put the box into storage and put the pieces into a ziplock then into a drawer.
You guys really knocked this Top 10 out of the park. I've experience every one of the pet peeves you mention. I would like to add one more ... stop making cheap, flimsy, must-be-assembled game components which fall apart during gameplay. Here's an example ... the Potion Explosion marble dispenser. Arghhhhhhhh.
I found Tom's Nr. 9 *No Images on Back of Boxes) so ironic given how much we pleaded for images on the Top 10's. Anyway, Cheers for the video and.... ARE YOU GUYS FINISHED YET?
I recently got a game from Kickstarter and they're definitely guilty of a couple of items on this list. They put amazing artwork on an expansion box that existed just to package three puchboards whose components HAD to go in the base game. Then the stretch goals didn't fit afterwards. If I didn't have the box that the neoprene mat came in there'd be nowhere to put them
Something that nobody mentioned is badly made components. FFG used those Black plastic stands for their Arkham Horror monsters. When they released MoM 2e, they did 'something' to the bases that are the same size as the token and it won't fit without damaging the cardboard. FFG CS insist that the bases function 'as expected', and I got the distinct impression that they didn't give a rat's @$$ that there was an issue. In a high priced game, it's just not good enough. Obviously their expectations were incredibly low. They USED to work fine. Since the Asmodee merger quality has nosedived.
I 100% agree with Sam on the fact that publishers (mainly on Kickstarter) sell game based on their components (minis) rather than the actual gameplay. I fear this trend will hurt the quality of gameplay in the long run. I know CMON is a great company and Eric Lang is one of the best designers. But Rising Sun raised over 3 million and they didn't even have the rulebook out! And of course us gamers, who allow publishers to do so by backing their games, share an equal part of the blame.
Green screen or backdrop? Either way, get the "Dice Tower" in frame for branding. Also, three point lighting to make you pop from the background. Doesn't have to be expensive and makes a big difference. My two cents. Otherwise, great top ten list.
one thing that gets me is some of these rule books. there seems to be parts missing or you cant even read it coherently. biggest thing have your rule book proof read before its final. test it amongst friends and other people to see if they can understand it, without a good rule book we cant play your games correctly
There's an inherent contradiction in Tom's and Sam's number one. They claim to know publishers are printing bad games just to have something to print, but constantly talk about how hard it is to turn a profit on games. So, they're saying companies are purposefully losing money on bad games. It's hard to believe publisher's are intentionally losing money just to have something to print.
Jabba's palace. After we played Rebellion and The Clone Wars, Jabba's palace came. Aside of the photos it was so non thematic that after reading the rules no one at home wanted to play. It feels like a cash grab. A different game reskinned. On top of that you needed to cut the plastic cover to open it. It has a nice velvet bag. But it will collect dust and there us no way to put it back in the plastic cover. In time that bag with dust will look terrible. It is a good game for a shelf of a collector, not for the table.
I hate when they make games that aren't sleever friendly. It comes with an insert that won't fit sleeved cards or the box is so small once you sleeve the game the cards won't fit.
However, i agree with almost all of their points. I don't mind people using the public domain stuff, as long as it fits the game. For the Kickstarter Exclusives, i mostly agree, but, it's kind of a thank you to the people that DID support you at THAT point. They were instrumental in the release. BUT, it should usually be a minor extra, not something like Tom said that fixed the game, or changed it drastically etc. Mostly giving some miniatures or extra special dice instead of cardboard tokens and basic dice etc are easy ways to do this. Other than that, yes, some stuff should then just be standard.
Can't believe that this wasn't on any of the lists: Stop releasing expansions where the components don't exactly match the base game! As an example: My Pandemic and Pandemic: On the Brink cards are slightly bent in opposite directions (as a result of how the cards are cut), so if I shuffle the deck of player cards... all of the On the Brink cards automatically bunch together! It's SO annoying! Several other games have cards/tiles that are distinctly different from the back. I don't want to cheat, but having inconsistent components forces me!
If you have an established publishing company with a strong backlist, you can afford to delay publication of a game to develop it for another couple of months. The income from that backlist (and whatever else you have on your publishing schedule) will keep the doors open. But if your company is you and your buddy, and your fiance answering the phones for minimum wage (or less), and you have rent, and payroll taxes, and electricity and cable bills to pay, you may not be able to survive a two-month delay in your third game ever. The other side of that equation, of course, is that if you put out weak product consistently, you'll soon be putting out no product at all. This is not unique to games publishing, it's the same thing for book publishers. They want every book they publish to be used in college Lit classes for the next century. But there's a pipeline that must be filled or the money stops coming in the door and the jobs go away. So "deathless prose" is replaced by "we hope the remainders aren't too bad". As to goofy box shapes: Yup, hate 'em. Here's another salient fact: distributors and stores hate them even more. Sure, that bullet-shaped box will draw attention ... if it ever hits the store shelf. This is not new. When Mayfair sold crayon railroad games in tubes, I used to hear from stores and distributors all the time how much of a pain in the rear they were to warehouse and stock. If you're a publisher, especially a new publisher, who plans to sell at retail, the last thing in the world you want to do is make retailers and distributors unhappy.
I agree with 95% of this, but it definitely doesn't cost anywhere near $40 to sleeve the cards for a game. 1000 servicable transparent entry-level ultrapro card sleeves currently costs $10.50 on amazon. More durable card sleeves exist and those are more expensive but it is incredibly rare for a board game to see enough play for that to make a difference, and most games barring deckbuilders contain nowhere near 1000 cards.
Zee, your #3 - are you okay with something like the card changes released in the second edition of A Few Acres of Snow that were designed to fix the broken strategy that internet trolls found? Also, what if those extra bits are sold as an upgrade kit (a.k.a. the Robinson Crusoe fix)?
I'd love to see someone making a general-purpose large scale set of money cards (I'm talking 200-300 cards in commonlyused denominations - 1,2,5,10,20,50 or some such) - I'm sure it'll sell like candies Also - Sam's no. 3 was the first thing I thought about! FFG is killing me with that idiotic "trench". I'm also a bit angry with TMG for the same reason - you have such great components, give us a matching insert!
'allow two hours for the learning game' in the rules would be nice - I don't need the time it'll take to learn on the box, but knowing how much to allow for the first time I play it when reading the rules in advance would be cool... I think First Martians was originally going to be an Essen release. I do prefer the one or two new games a year model allowing more effort to be put effort into each title to the throw a bunch of stuff at the wall and see what sticks model, though from a business perspective I can certainly see why most companies, if not doing the latter, seem to veer towards it - Less time and effort means less money put into the development, likely smaller print runs meaning less chance of a large financial loss if it isn't a hit, more products around it to absorb any loss that may occur, etc. Mine is that I wish companies would stop using generic inserts that are seemingly not just there to hold the components in place while shipping - Either use a disposable transportation insert (e.g. the FFG trench) or an insert designed specifically for the game, the generic not-designed-as-disposable insert is both making the game more expensive for you, which will then be passed on to me, than a disposable cardboard thing to hold the components in place while shipping, while offering zero benefit over that generic disposable thing.
One base game and one expansion in the base game box? B., please: I fitted Carcassonne and about FIFTEEN expansions in the base game box, all sorted in tuck boxes and wooden component bags, plus a custom foldable scoreboard twice the size of the original one, with a track of 100 points instead of 50.
AMEN to number Nine. The others (most of them) bother me too, but none so much as oversize boxes with no - or IMPROPER - inserts, where all the components have half a foot of extra space to Christmas around in there (Shake that box, Tom!).
Zee's #8: Narrative / "Funny" Rulebooks. How about what Space Alert did? An 8 page concise rulebook, and a separate narrative "handbook" to learn how to play in a "funny" way?
Well, we need to be able to note the differences between a large & complex boardgame design company, and a one-man-only (or friends-group-only) boardgame design company; the firsts are in process to born, and the seconds are the rest.
"Pimp version" kickstarter exclusives, be it alternate art, alternate mini molds and better component quality are ok. Any mechanical component in exclusives means the game is not worth buying because you cut a limb off it to hold hostage as limited time DLC.
RE: Oversized boxes which have sufficient room for the expansion(s)... Maybe that's the whole point? Yeah, if you only have the base game it's wasted space. However, if they knew that they would launch expansions, making the box 'too big' is actually a feature in my opinion. So, Machi Koro is fine here.
I know this is a temporary backdrop so I'm not criticizing. I do think it would be kind of cool if you had a green screen behind you that you put all of your visuals on rather than just flashed on for 10 sec or so.
Great video. This was one of the funniest top 10 lists you guys have ever done. I had never most of these but then you guys have been gaming for so long. I love the studio, the clipboards look professional, the background is so classically gorgeous. I could do without the slight echo but I imagine this will improve in the future.
I find it ironic that Sam says for number 8 when the expansion to his favorite game - 'Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition' - fixes one of the major flaws of that game.
At the end of #6 Tom discusses games with varying ways to play, and he doesn't like when all the variants are given. This reminded me of his review of M.U.L.E.. Tom didn't like the random event deck. Unfortunately the rules appear to have that deck as part of the main play, but elsewhere says you can play with out it. Tom's rating of MULE dropped because of this deck, which technically was a variant. As for me, I don't mind, I will experiment with game play to find the way I like. Or will read at BGG what most prefer. Variants are fine with me. I think this goes hand in hand with games that are not fully play tested and play well rounded out in which Tom and crew also dislike. One of my favorite games, Tomb/Tomb: Cryptmaster has horrible rules and it took a lot of online reading to figure out how to play. If I hadn't done that I would not have my favorite dungeon crawl and a top 3 game of all time. True some games I won't have patience to do such, it has to be a game in which I am heavily interested in. And I do think the publisher should have done more work to fix Tomb, but I wouldn't toss the game aside because of it. It is something publishers need to work on,
If a game has a lot of cards that will be shuffled often and aren't standard size...include sleeves that fit that games cards (preferably already sleeved 😉).
Honestly an addendum to Z's #3, even if they want just those tiny differences.... Offer them stand-alone so if you have version 1, you can get those for just a few bucks.. And be up to speed.
Know what's even better than KS exclusives? When they DO release it for sale in limited quantities with no limit on purchase numbers for one of the top 10 BGG games.
One thing I wish publishers would do more of: Examples. State a rule. If it's complex or unusual: give an example, or two! of how it works in play. Please! One good example can be worth hundreds of words, or precious time wondering "what the heck is this?" (This goes double for Role Playing Games. And give examples of good, playable characters, not weak putzes that no one in their right mind would use. Not one, or two, give a dozen.)
I gotta say, you guys make my day with your banter and wisecracks. There's a lot of good points along the way, yet never feels like I'm getting lectured at. Keep up the good work!
I love the Look of the Firefly the Board game Money, but it wasn't very space/Futuristic Feeling .. So I LAMINATED IT ! Great Artwork & the Games Contents Picture on back of Box. I Do Like when the Base Game is Larger if they Plan Expansions because I want them all in One box, But NOT the Expansions. I agree Better/Clear Rules with a Picture of Setup and should be Right when game is Released OR they make new Correct ones you can Request (Free if you own Game), I have Re-Written way to many Rules books to make them Simpler and Correct. Kickstarter I use a lot and Understand, give the Exclusive unlocks free for Backing, then Sell them Later separately. Nice Vacuform Inserts cant be that expensive. Mark Expansions as Expansions for which Game they are For ! STANDARDIZE Boxes to a few Sizes, Different Thickness is ok, but it should fit on Shelves with others !
Publishers really need to do better with insets. I hate when there is a nice plastic insert but my sleeved cards doesn't fit. Why could they just make it a millimeter bigger on each side so my sleeved card can fit? Splendor, Pandemic Cthulhu, Bohnanza and Ascension just to name a few.
The comment about Cthulhu showing up in non-Cthulhu games... I think you can extend that to things from one IP showing up in a game for another IP (though Cthulhu is certainly the worst one to point out. My example: I Kickstarted the Dresden Files Coop card game, and I received my copy recently and have been playing it. Now I'm a fan of the Dresden Files books, and we've been going through and playing the game with different combinations of characters, and have to explain to all my friends who haven't read the books, exactly who those characters are. And I knew all of them. until I saw this one who I didn't recognize (Hank Walker, Alias Ra: Sun God for Hire). I'm an older guy, I suppose there could be a character that I just am not remembering. So I started searching the Dresden Files wiki (no mention), I looked at wikipedia itself, again no mention. Maybe it was from a graphic novel, which I haven't read. Maybe it was from a short story that was published separately in some random anthology. I had no idea and it bothered the hell out of me. Well, I finally figured out that Hank Walker is NOT a Dresden Files character. He's a character from some other gosh darned game that I don't play: Sentinels of the Multiverse. The whole idea of the game is to reproduce the various books in game-form -- so why would you EVER add in a character from a different IP??? Why not just add Mickey Mouse to the Dresden Files. Why not add Cthulhu? Some combos could be fun IF that's your concept for the game. And some people have done it in other media (such as what they did with "Penny Dreadful", and "The League of Extraordinary Characters". But that was part of a concept, to combine characters from the fantastic literature of the 19th century. But at least that was the basic concept, to combine those characters.. And everyone knows who all those characters are. But who the hell is Hank Walker?
I agree with everything excepts the black borders. I'm fine with them I would go so far telling: Please stop making cards without borders At all.. I hate sleeving games, not worth my time and money. And when I see a deck of cards without sleeves and I can tell the cards from the side of the deck that is sooo bad. I could just play with an open deck.
Is it just me or is the sound worse in the new set? Bit too much reverb (not sure that's the correct term. german here) due to the room probably being rather empty.
The play time lie doesn't bother me as much as the player count does. I've started doing the same as Tom only mine is with games that say 3- whatever, ( TI3, Game of Thrones just a couple of examples) I automatically say "Yeah you need at least 4 people to play this game."
I mostly agree with Zee and Sam's number 9, but boy do I love it when I can fit the expansions in the base box!
I like the fact that Champions of Midgard and Raiders of the North Sea expansions had an updated box to help hold the expansions plus base game. I find this fine if the original game was in a small box. Plus I would rather them do this then give me an over sized box that has barely any components with way to much space for expansions. I may not want the expansions. The FFG LCG games are the exception to the rule for me on this. They need to go back to the bigger original LCG box rather then the small one or provide a bigger box like the Smashup Big Geeky Box.
One of my future projects is to build new wooden boxes for games like Cosmic Encounter and Blood Rage where it is just impossible to fit all the pieces into the original box.
Yeah, Brett. I've used 2 different boxes for Elder Sign: A Michael's Photo Box from before I got Omens in Ice to when I got Omens at Sea, to a spare Ticket to Ride Box after I put all of the North American stuff in the Europe box. Maybe a trains sized box would fit everything if FFG announces 2 more expansions for Elder Sign...They're totally going to do more expansions after Sea, aren't they.
I think it's still better to have an appropriately sized box for the base game then release the expansion in a big enough box to hold the expansion and the base game. If you don't want the expansion, your base game box is still appropriately sized for the game.
The one that comes immediately to mind is Pandemic: On The Brink. It has slots/storage for everything from Pandemic and the On The Brink expansion.
Pathfinder Adventure Card Game goes too far with making boxes that fit all the expansions. The problem is that the expansion boxes are flimsy and terribly designed. Putting the cards back into the box can actually damage them because the expansion boxes have a lot of wasted space and don't have any inserts to support the cards.
However, the main game's box is designed specifically to hold those expansion boxes in a lop-sided way. To make matters worse, it's really annoying and difficult to separate an expansion from the base game. Because of all this, the game box is twice as big as it needs to be. Even a full box with all the expansions has a lot of wasted space.
Stop making inserts that don't fit the components with sleeved cards!!!
Lords of the Waterdeep
Dominion *cough *cough
This is so annoying, why is it so hard to leave a bit more space so that sleeved cards can fit?
I don't sleeve my cards though and, when the cards fit perfectly and don't slosh around in the box, it's beautiful.
Ya can't win🤷🏻♂️
if they do that, some people will say "Don't assume we sleeve our cards !!!"
Kickstarter exclusives should simply be timed exclusives before being released a year or so later as optional add ons.
I wish I could like this comment 1000 times
Some computer games are like that- exclusive for preorders a period off time.
Exclusive guaranteed for a year...might be made available later if the game is successful enough.
If I can't buy a game with all it's components because I didn't donate on a Kickstarter 3 years ago then I'm not gonna buy the game at all.
Kickstarter exclusives shouldn't be a thing. It targets people's fear of missing out in order to get them to invest in something they normally wouldn't.
My #1: Playtest your rulebooks! They're written by people who know how to play the game. They have to be. But don't JUST have people who know how to play look it over. Give it to a group who doesn't already know the rules. Then DON'T stand over them and answer questions. You won't be able to do that when you start selling your game! Tell them you'll be back in an hour, and they need to write down what they find unclear. Do that several times with different groups, and then fix those issues.
I have serveral games that are nigh unplayable (Mistfall and Kitsune come prominently to mind) because the rulebooks were so poorly writen. Maybe they're complete, maybe they're not, but either way they're terribly unclear.
Agreed. For some reason Baseball Highlights 2045's rulebook was pure garbage to me, and I wound up just selling it off. Vids online seem to clash with what the rule book said and I wound up giving up and trading it off. I hate terrible rulebooks. Cry Havoc is another
Terraforming Mars and Lords of Hellas haven’t hit my table yet for this very reason. I’ve had LoH for six months and TM for a year and a half.
@@TheHouseofPanda played my first game of terraforming mars a couple of weeks ago and we didn't find any problems with the rules. Once we started playing we had to look up a couple as we went but it was all there and it was pretty hard to misinterpret
Bought used copy of 1st Ed. Panzer Grenadiers. Almost got through rule 3.0. NOPE. ????? Skipped around rulebook....garbage. Supposedly 4th Ed. Rules fix...(what..all...some...a few) the sins. now I have games I have played, games I haven't gotten to yet, and games that huh???? box is opened look at components n rules and... nope. Nonsense puts you on the bottom of my playlist. Maybe in 2021....
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business card sized rule book!
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Though Tom obviously did not mentioned it when he talked about the number of players, I think it is important to highlight the case of the games advertised as playable solo/solitaire, when in reality is just a way to (in some case literally) learn the rules in order to play it with more people. While I can understand that solo/solitaire rules usually require some adjustments, and are therefore added at the end in a special section, if a publisher lists a game as 1 to X players, I expect the game to be fully playable if I exclusively play it solitaire.
Even if it's the sort of Beat Your High Score that I'm not fond of, I'd definitely agree with that, though I don't mind multihanding a co-op (Ideally, I think, co-ops would list player count and character count - 1-4 players controlling 2-4 characters (Pandemic), 1-4 players controlling 4 (sometimes 3 or 6) characters (Mice and Mystics), 1-8 players controlling 1-8 characters (But you probably only ever want to use 3 or 4 characters unless you have more than 4 players) (Arkham Horror), whatever...)
Totally agree. I also don't mind that much the multihanding co-op in games like Zombicide: Black Plague or Death Angel, but don't like the beat your own score that much. The worst offender, however, is still the "learn to play by playing solitaire."
Absolutely on your worst offender - If the solo mode is designed to teach me how to play, don't advertise it as being playable solo. It isn't, you just made a solo tutorial for your multiplayer game, any more than a target practice learn the controls area in an online only, multiplayer only, video game is a single player mode in that.
As I said, while I don't like beat your high score, if that's the solo mode, fair enough, it's not a solo mode that I'm going to enjoy, but it is a fully fledged solo mode, and there are people who enjoy that style of solo play, and more power to them.
Listening to this anew in the present. When Tom said "no more paper money!" I was prepared to say "But what about Millennium Blades?! It's awesome in that!" Glad to see that he later stated the same thing!
Hey guys, I appreciate the new layout. I think this is some things that could that could improve the new layout.
- Game table instead of black table (Dice tower logo in the middle of all 3)
- Backsplash should be redesigned to show either dice tower (full name) or not have it at all. Having just tower distracts.
- Sound should be better. A lot of echo.
- Need more lighting. You guys are dim.
- Next indiegogo campaign, you guys need like a super uber amazing camera. :)
Just critical criticism but I do love the show. I know there are lots of changing to do. I cant wait to see this studio continue to blossom. Thanks guys!
To stop box and insert designs issues publishers should all look at Mechs vs Minions. Its by far the best game box I have. Everything fits securely back in the box with no wasted space and the inserts keep it all secure during transport.
Stop making inserts that fit only unsleeved cards!
I like to sleeve cards in my games, as long as shuffling the cards is required.
Some companies are really good at making inserts for sleeved cards, but most are not.
This genre of list actually sums up the biggest current problem with many game published in the last few years. The fixation with top notch art and production quality has pushed the publication of glossy super-produced games with awesome art and fantastic components (yes minis). But many of these games themselves are ill conceived concepts that should have been strangled at birth. Prices have skyrocketed as a result of this sea change in attitude toward 'what is an acceptable finish.' The Dice Tower holy trinity telling the faithful that average artwork is bad, makes it so. Food Chain Magnate is an awesome game with plain artwork. With power comes responsibility guys, artwork is not a top 10 thing that publishers get wrong. Many small publishers cannot afford to pay top dollar for art for a 1000 unit print run. Such a negative attitude is a question of taste anyway and will only close the small guys down.
Dang it. I was just about to release my series of games.
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I illustrated everything myself, I wanted a fun and whimsical look.
All three (Tom, Zee, and Sam) have once said, "...great..."
Oh well, back to the drawing board.
Sir, I cannot wait for your first set of errata for your fabulous games.
Can we expect plastic inserts, that will hold all but four cards, when they are not shrink-wrapped anymore?
"The gauntlet has been thrown" -Zee about stickers. Amazing.
Sherlock Cthulhu.....
Already done - and it's even very good - "A Study in Emerald" is based on a Neil Gaiman story where Sherlock Holmes lives in a world where the Old Ones have awakened and rule over humanity
Omer Hertz you forgot to mention... zombies too! :)
Lewis Zephyr sherlock Risk! turtle Scotland yard bady!!
Mythos Tales
Sherlock vs Godzilla!
Love the new setup and how everyone has the same clipboards, etc. Very nice!
PreppinShootinLivin Yep, looks like part of the KS income went on branded stationery. 😁
I run a high school game club. Publishers need to stop using sexually exploitative imagery in their games. My club is mostly girls, but regardless of gender, it's embarrassing to have to explain why the Snake Clan in Blood Rage isn't wearing the typical attire necessary for combat.
+IQ encodoc Yeah or, respect the fact that this comment section is a place for people to voice their complaints about what publishers are doing and that you shouldn't try to tell someone that their complaint is invalid or, more accurately, "absurd".
@@bill_the_butcher Everyone can have an opinion but when your opinion includes an attack against another person it stops being okay. Your first reply to the OP accused them of having "feelings of entitlement", your second reply to me calls me a "hypocrite". In just two posts you established that you have a pattern of behaviour where you can't actually debate the opinion without attacking the person behind it.
@@bill_the_butcher There's nothing in the original post about feelings of entitlement. That's just some bullshit you invented to fit your narrative.
I agree. I am so tired of seeing artwork that was targeted towards boys in puberty.
Rant incoming.
One thing are the impossible proportions, another the half-nakedness and the third the absolute impracticality. It really irks me up when I see the "tribal huntress" with large breasts who wears basically a loincloth and a very thin piece of cloth to cover her nipples. First, you kind of want at least your legs covered, so that you don't get scratches or blisters from maybe poisonous plants you are walking through. Second, breasts need support during physically demanding activities. Especially when they have at least a medium size. And running around in nature is one such activity. Not having that support ****** hurts.
Just heard there's going to be a Ticket to Ride Cthulhu.
Ooooh, how much is a ticket for riding Cthulhu?
The cost to ride Cthulhu is only your sanity, my friend. Only your sanity.
Miniatures. There, I said it. I don't have the time nor the money to get into the miniatures aspect of the hobby, so I have a bunch of games with just grey plastic figures. I would love it if they'd just make really nice standees, like the ones in Dead of Winter, reduce the price of the box, and have miniatures you could buy on the side. Or have the standees on the side. I'd pay a fair amount of additional money for standees for Shadows of Brimstone or Mansions of Madness.
Think it depends on the game. Usually epic dungeon crawl games with nasty monsters work best with miniatures. Standees is too flat to see properly when people are sitting on every side of the table.
In Dead of Winter, you are not very attached to survivors nor are zombies complex or threatening enemies. Even with the expansion, the super zombies do nothing until you attack them.
I totally get your perspective, but it's hard for me to call the standees in Dead of Winter "really nice standees." That said, more and more games are coming out with pre-painted standees (like the new fourth edition of Fury of Dracula.) I'd also keep in mind that you can pay people to paint minis for you, which might be an option if you're willing to spend the money for it as mentioned (and if it's a game that's worth the investment for you.)
Honestly, the box size one is hard. When you print and ship components, your punch-out sheets might be 5"x10". So you need a box that can accommodate 10" long components which tend to be 11"x9" or so. But once they are punched the'd fit in a 5"x10" box. To be honest, I have been agonizing over this very thing. How do I fit our game into a smaller box. But the longest component is 10" so that is what is setting us up to use a large box and I know that as soon as the pieces are punched out, they'll fit in a smaller one and Zee, Sam, and Tom are going to "Hate Us" (tm)
Sometimes a box needs to be long and wide, but doesn’t need to be deep as well.
Could you do a list on top 10 things publishers should be doing, or striving to achieve.
The box is an obvious one, but maybe msrp? player boards (paper vs cardboard vs plastic)? component quality (releasing a deluxe and a standard version)? inserts (foam vs cardboard vs plastic vs wood)... working with companies to help design these inserts and maybe taking a cut of the profits? watch it played by the game designers or play testers, could make a making of the board game like they do for movies to inspire others / lessons learned / actually showing the care that was put into a game? print and play demos? get feedback during the making of the game by the public (treading carefully) but if the video game industry can provide feedback and patch the game, why can't the community say that you need to stop with the zombie theme little R&D engaging forums.. transparency can be a good thing. storing the components (plastic molds, bags plastic/felt/leather, plastic rigid containers).
@Sam: You already cannot buy V-Commandos in game stores in the US because the manufacturing cost is so high that the price would not work in the retail channel. Stuffing both expansions into the game would REALLY increase the cost. I think V-Commandos is at a manageable price point, and if you like the game you can pick up the expansions.
Glad to see the new setup for the videos. Could I recommend moving some lighting to the foreground? The backdrop is lit nicely, but you guys look like you are sitting in a bit of shadow compared to the background so the light balance looks off. Also, a tablecloth may help tamp down the echo generated by the flat table surface.
Lots to look forward to in the new location!
The best way to fix #3 No Picture of Setup. I think is to put the setup of the game on the inside of the box cover. That I have seen on a lot of the older games I played as a kid.
Here's the top 2 things that are ruining board games.
2) Kickstarter - all the extras and add-ons and exclusives... Then you got anybody and everybody flooding the market. For the one actual good game out of ten that come from kickstarter, it proved to be an overall detriment to board gaming in general.
1) IPs - the local board gaming shop used to be really cool, but now it's hardly distinguishable from the Disney Store. The whole front of the store now is Marvel, Star Wars, and other Disney products. They aren't good games for the most part... but you've heard of them so they get top billing.
New editions of games that change a few components, but also change card backs so future expansions won't work with your older game. King of Tokyo, cough cough
I kinda miss the bookshelf! It made top 10's feel a little more homey. I guess I can get behind the idea of a set though!
For the big empty boxes thing, they could easily make them like the individual scenarios for the Arkham Horror LCG look (the single deck ones), but bigger. You have the big front picture for shelf exposure, but the actual deck size is way small. They could do the same for big games. Have a big sheet of paper/cardboard as a front face, and behind the actual sized smaller box where you keep the game after opening. Imagine a box the size of Elder Sign, with a sheet of cardboard the size of the Eldritch Horror box in front all wrapped in plastic that you can afterwards get rid of to keep the smaller version. You could probably even keep it as a poster and hang it somewhere if you like it.
I have one that is similar. I don't like when a 2 player game is advertised as 2-4 because you can play in partners, just for the sake of extending the player count, but not changing the game at all. It's a 2 player game, not a game where 2 people discuss and make a move than one person could have made. You could really extend ANY game by declaring that. Just imagine: "Carcassonne is 10 players. In groups of two, you draw a tile and decide together where to put it..."
Wait your going to jump on kick starter exclusives when dice tower is putting out tons of promos that are hard to come by? Any one seen a copy of the Scythe dice tower promo?
Tellgryn But at least they aren't exclusive to the Kickstarter. You can still get Dice Tower promos from them at conventions.
Tellgryn they are talking about Kickstarter exclusives that add to game play or change the game. Tom even states "give me an exclusive character that looks different but is available in an expansion later". Exclusive artwork etc.
Every promo The Dice Tower makes changes the game play in all the games, some even change it to the point it is a major change of game play. 99.9% of the people only can get the hottest of the dice tower or kickstarter exclusives on ebay. Do not make a video about exclusives when your company is just as guilty with it's promos.
Tom: "I've had publishers tell me before, 'Yeah that game wasn't that great, but we needed a game to publish'.
Sounds like AEG.
you should do top 10 games who didn't have pictures at the back of the game
I agree on almost everything except the "black bordered cards". The thing about white bordered cards is that they tend to get yellowish in the long run. Black has its own cons (e.g. finger print magnets) but I like them anyways, besides I'll be sleeving all of them either with white or black borders. I guess it boils down to personal preference. Btw nice top 10 list. Cheers! 🍻
1. Exclusives or extremely limited runs are dealbreakers. Whenever I see a games with expansions that you can't get anymore, I pass. Kickstarter exclusives are the worst in this.
2. Write good rulebooks. Sand down your rulebook so it only contains the rules succinctly and an FAQ section (that covers all scenario's that may come up). Add a picture of the game after it has been setup with a legend next to it. I like fluff, but not when it obscures the rules. Put that stuff in the back or in a separate booklet.
3. Optimise language usage and symbology. If the language or symbols aren't intuitive, I'm not likely to get into your game and I won't introduce my friends to it.
4. Don't save on components. I put cards into sleeves and certain tokens in cases, but I don't want to be forced to handle your game with gloves, tweezers, etc. And don't add stickers on components when you can just print it on there.
5. Stop saving on the insert/storage. When your game is a nightmare to store, I'm never going to touch it after playing it the first time.
6. I pass on strange box sizes/shapes. If the game doesn't fit in my storage, it isn't coming home with me.
7. Learn to market your game correctly. Make sure it is clear what your game is, who it's for, and that it exists, otherwise I won't buy it.
8. False marketing should be illegal. Be accurate in what you advertise. Number of players, playtime, etc. all need to be clear and correct. Don't stretch the playercount and don't measure game length by the time of designers playing the game.
9. Make the game attractive. If the game you're selling looks ugly then I'm less likely to pick it up. This is part of the reason I sold my copy of Terraforming Mars.
10. Reprints. Make sure the game is available, especially when expansions for it are available, and release upgrade packs if a new edition comes out that doesn't revise the entire game (like Arkham Horror 2nd vs. 3rd edition).
Holy Crap, I feel like I know the exact game Sam was talking about for his number 1. I was a playtester for (kickstarter game that shall remain nameless) and I straight up told the publisher, "Look, this game has been done better 2 TIMES before! This game should NOT be made. It is NOT good." And they basically said, "Nah we are going to add useless miniatures to this bad game and sell it for double the price." And they did. And it sold. And it made my heart sad.
This type of video is a fun one to watch since a lot of us can agree with this stuff. When publishers do things that don't jive well with customer experience, it is because they have some sort of competing motivation that overrides good sense. I agree with all of the top 10s here except for the black bordered cards. A lot of games don't use black borders but choose to make the card art, either front or back, to the edge of the card. Often times this looks aesthetically better than having a stark white border especially with certain themes but I do get that it is easier to recognize wear. This is just something customers have to deal with as it is a physical product and not an electronic one and sleeving is the best option so far. I think publishers can do a solid for customers by providing sleeves either in or separately from the game.
Agree with the stop making paper money... except for Firefly. The money in that game is great (even Tom said so in his review, though he seems to have forgotten). People like the paper money in that game so much that they even made a recent add on for the game that made the paper money larger and in bigger bills, lol.
The thing that I don't like is when there are NO inserts and I just have to put pieces into the box in baggies...they just get tossed around the box when it isn't/shouldn't be necessary.
This may be my favorite Top 10 of yours yet, and I've been watching since they were single composite lists of 10! Everyone was so supportive of others selections in this one! :D
Mediocre/Bad Art: Totally agree. Art is a game's foot forward. Make it good.
Expansions in the Base Game: This is the board game equivalent of Day 1 DLC. And That's terrible
Day 1 Errata: Wow, I keep agreeing with Sam
Symbology: ... I feel like the last person on earth who actually likes the symbols on games like Race for the Galaxy.
Cthulhu: I love Cthulhu. I own a ton of Cthulhu games, and probably own more Lovecraftian games than any other single game. I gravitate towards the more bizarrely Cthulhu themed games rather than "Investigators versus elder gods" too -- such as Cthulhu Wars or Fate of the Elder Gods where you play as the Old Ones. I'd kill for a Lovecraft game based around his Dreamland stories. Yet I do feel that there's too much "Follow the Leader" of FFG's Arkham Horror, and since I like my Cthulhu theme thick, I feel like a disservice is done by shoehorning it in. Let Cthulhu sleep in his sunken city of R'lyeh -- it says something when Smash Up, whose point is having everything meme-worthy, makes fun of this by calling it "The Obligatory Cthulhu Expansion"
Black-bordered cards: As a Magic: the Gathering player, White Borders get dirty faster than Black Borders wear. But maybe it's just WotC's production process. I agree 100% on "Don't assume I'm going to sleeve my cards". There's only one game other than a TCG I've sleeved and that's Mystic Vale, which comes with sleeves and MUST be sleeved to work. But it comes with the freeking sleeves!
Stop Lying: ... this really should go without saying and it's sad that it doesn't. As far as timers go, I feel like learning games always take time+50% to time+100%. Oddly, I've only ever seen one game overestimate its play time: Tsuro's box says it takes 15-20 minutes (some editions, I believe, say 30 minutes) and I've rarely had it go over 10.
Creative Packages & Ill-fitting boxes: As long as it stacks or fits well on a shelf I'm good with it. So the "Forbidden" series tins, fine. A couple cylinders, OK. Maybe an octogon if it is basically the standard square box with the corner sheared off. But overall, yeah, there are problems.
Setup in the rulebook: OK, there are a lot of rulebook quibbles, and I want freeking diagrams. TI3 does this well. Another thing I'd want is, if there's no full setup diagram because it's a card game or something, show a picture of the components so I know which card backs are action cards and which ones are objective cards and which ones are Flubacca cards!
Anonymous John Doe by the end of my first game fo Race for the Galaxy, I completely understood the iconography. No problem there. Same with 7 Wonders.
Small World on the other hand, not a chance. I have to look at the rules every time.
"I know a lot about publishing."
~10 Minutes Later~
"I mean, how much does a deck of cards cost?"
I love this background! It's very clean and professional!
That said, Zee's #5/tom's #9 (no picture on box) and then the Sam's #8 (expansions with base game) are two of my biggest pet peeves.
I'm not crazy about the new setting! Bring the game table and the game shelves in the background back!
I've got one major gripe against publishers, especially this past year. Please, PLEASE print enough copies of a game. I know it can be hard to anticipate market demand, and it can be scary to risk printing too many copies of a game, but games don't usually spoil. If it was worth publishing at all, you WILL sell all of it eventually. It's worse, though, if you already know a game is well-received and you fail to print enough of it. If you know your game is going to be on every "Top Ten of 2016" list in December, there's going to be demand for it in January. Please don't make me wait until May to get my hands on it.
Definitely agree with the box to actual game ratio... DIXIT has big ass boxes but all it is is a deck of cards... Like... did it really need those extra 10 inches of box? If I open a box and the pieces take up less than half the box, I will generally just put the box into storage and put the pieces into a ziplock then into a drawer.
You guys really knocked this Top 10 out of the park. I've experience every one of the pet peeves you mention. I would like to add one more ... stop making cheap, flimsy, must-be-assembled game components which fall apart during gameplay. Here's an example ... the Potion Explosion marble dispenser. Arghhhhhhhh.
I found Tom's Nr. 9 *No Images on Back of Boxes) so ironic given how much we pleaded for images on the Top 10's.
Anyway, Cheers for the video and....
ARE YOU GUYS FINISHED YET?
I recently got a game from Kickstarter and they're definitely guilty of a couple of items on this list. They put amazing artwork on an expansion box that existed just to package three puchboards whose components HAD to go in the base game. Then the stretch goals didn't fit afterwards. If I didn't have the box that the neoprene mat came in there'd be nowhere to put them
I hate stickers too....but isn't assembling and gluing miniatures together pretty much that same thing?
How do you hate one and like the other?
Something that nobody mentioned is badly made components. FFG used those Black plastic stands for their Arkham Horror monsters. When they released MoM 2e, they did 'something' to the bases that are the same size as the token and it won't fit without damaging the cardboard. FFG CS insist that the bases function 'as expected', and I got the distinct impression that they didn't give a rat's @$$ that there was an issue. In a high priced game, it's just not good enough.
Obviously their expectations were incredibly low. They USED to work fine. Since the Asmodee merger quality has nosedived.
I 100% agree with Sam on the fact that publishers (mainly on Kickstarter) sell game based on their components (minis) rather than the actual gameplay. I fear this trend will hurt the quality of gameplay in the long run.
I know CMON is a great company and Eric Lang is one of the best designers. But Rising Sun raised over 3 million and they didn't even have the rulebook out!
And of course us gamers, who allow publishers to do so by backing their games, share an equal part of the blame.
Green screen or backdrop? Either way, get the "Dice Tower" in frame for branding. Also, three point lighting to make you pop from the background. Doesn't have to be expensive and makes a big difference. My two cents. Otherwise, great top ten list.
one thing that gets me is some of these rule books. there seems to be parts missing or you cant even read it coherently. biggest thing have your rule book proof read before its final. test it amongst friends and other people to see if they can understand it, without a good rule book we cant play your games correctly
29:32 Does anyone know what Sam is specifically talking about? (Using an out-of-context quote on a box)
There's an inherent contradiction in Tom's and Sam's number one. They claim to know publishers are printing bad games just to have something to print, but constantly talk about how hard it is to turn a profit on games. So, they're saying companies are purposefully losing money on bad games. It's hard to believe publisher's are intentionally losing money just to have something to print.
Jabba's palace. After we played Rebellion and The Clone Wars, Jabba's palace came. Aside of the photos it was so non thematic that after reading the rules no one at home wanted to play. It feels like a cash grab. A different game reskinned.
On top of that you needed to cut the plastic cover to open it. It has a nice velvet bag. But it will collect dust and there us no way to put it back in the plastic cover. In time that bag with dust will look terrible.
It is a good game for a shelf of a collector, not for the table.
Super fun list. I like when you guys rant a little bit. It's hilarious!
I hate when they make games that aren't sleever friendly. It comes with an insert that won't fit sleeved cards or the box is so small once you sleeve the game the cards won't fit.
I hate it when games have several cards in different sizes, forcing me to seek out and find several different sized sleeves for them.
However, i agree with almost all of their points.
I don't mind people using the public domain stuff, as long as it fits the game.
For the Kickstarter Exclusives, i mostly agree, but, it's kind of a thank you to the people that DID support you at THAT point. They were instrumental in the release. BUT, it should usually be a minor extra, not something like Tom said that fixed the game, or changed it drastically etc. Mostly giving some miniatures or extra special dice instead of cardboard tokens and basic dice etc are easy ways to do this.
Other than that, yes, some stuff should then just be standard.
Yeah, I'm cool with exclusives that are purely cosmetic. Anything that affects gameplay should not be gated off from a portion of the players though.
Excellent work guys: Zee RAGE! Give in to your hatred! I can feel the anger flowing through you...
Can't believe that this wasn't on any of the lists:
Stop releasing expansions where the components don't exactly match the base game!
As an example: My Pandemic and Pandemic: On the Brink cards are slightly bent in opposite directions (as a result of how the cards are cut), so if I shuffle the deck of player cards... all of the On the Brink cards automatically bunch together! It's SO annoying!
Several other games have cards/tiles that are distinctly different from the back. I don't want to cheat, but having inconsistent components forces me!
Sound is slightly right sided for some reason
"number 6 never existed" so its like the last season of Lost? ;)
If you have an established publishing company with a strong backlist, you can afford to delay publication of a game to develop it for another couple of months. The income from that backlist (and whatever else you have on your publishing schedule) will keep the doors open.
But if your company is you and your buddy, and your fiance answering the phones for minimum wage (or less), and you have rent, and payroll taxes, and electricity and cable bills to pay, you may not be able to survive a two-month delay in your third game ever. The other side of that equation, of course, is that if you put out weak product consistently, you'll soon be putting out no product at all.
This is not unique to games publishing, it's the same thing for book publishers. They want every book they publish to be used in college Lit classes for the next century. But there's a pipeline that must be filled or the money stops coming in the door and the jobs go away. So "deathless prose" is replaced by "we hope the remainders aren't too bad".
As to goofy box shapes: Yup, hate 'em. Here's another salient fact: distributors and stores hate them even more. Sure, that bullet-shaped box will draw attention ... if it ever hits the store shelf. This is not new. When Mayfair sold crayon railroad games in tubes, I used to hear from stores and distributors all the time how much of a pain in the rear they were to warehouse and stock. If you're a publisher, especially a new publisher, who plans to sell at retail, the last thing in the world you want to do is make retailers and distributors unhappy.
I agree with 95% of this, but it definitely doesn't cost anywhere near $40 to sleeve the cards for a game. 1000 servicable transparent entry-level ultrapro card sleeves currently costs $10.50 on amazon. More durable card sleeves exist and those are more expensive but it is incredibly rare for a board game to see enough play for that to make a difference, and most games barring deckbuilders contain nowhere near 1000 cards.
Zee, your #3 - are you okay with something like the card changes released in the second edition of A Few Acres of Snow that were designed to fix the broken strategy that internet trolls found? Also, what if those extra bits are sold as an upgrade kit (a.k.a. the Robinson Crusoe fix)?
I'd love to see someone making a general-purpose large scale set of money cards (I'm talking 200-300 cards in commonlyused denominations - 1,2,5,10,20,50 or some such) - I'm sure it'll sell like candies
Also - Sam's no. 3 was the first thing I thought about! FFG is killing me with that idiotic "trench". I'm also a bit angry with TMG for the same reason - you have such great components, give us a matching insert!
'allow two hours for the learning game' in the rules would be nice - I don't need the time it'll take to learn on the box, but knowing how much to allow for the first time I play it when reading the rules in advance would be cool...
I think First Martians was originally going to be an Essen release. I do prefer the one or two new games a year model allowing more effort to be put effort into each title to the throw a bunch of stuff at the wall and see what sticks model, though from a business perspective I can certainly see why most companies, if not doing the latter, seem to veer towards it - Less time and effort means less money put into the development, likely smaller print runs meaning less chance of a large financial loss if it isn't a hit, more products around it to absorb any loss that may occur, etc.
Mine is that I wish companies would stop using generic inserts that are seemingly not just there to hold the components in place while shipping - Either use a disposable transportation insert (e.g. the FFG trench) or an insert designed specifically for the game, the generic not-designed-as-disposable insert is both making the game more expensive for you, which will then be passed on to me, than a disposable cardboard thing to hold the components in place while shipping, while offering zero benefit over that generic disposable thing.
One base game and one expansion in the base game box? B., please: I fitted Carcassonne and about FIFTEEN expansions in the base game box, all sorted in tuck boxes and wooden component bags, plus a custom foldable scoreboard twice the size of the original one, with a track of 100 points instead of 50.
AMEN to number Nine.
The others (most of them) bother me too, but none so much as oversize boxes with no - or IMPROPER - inserts, where all the components have half a foot of extra space to Christmas around in there (Shake that box, Tom!).
Zee's #8: Narrative / "Funny" Rulebooks. How about what Space Alert did? An 8 page concise rulebook, and a separate narrative "handbook" to learn how to play in a "funny" way?
Well, we need to be able to note the differences between a large & complex boardgame design company, and a one-man-only (or friends-group-only) boardgame design company; the firsts are in process to born, and the seconds are the rest.
"Pimp version" kickstarter exclusives, be it alternate art, alternate mini molds and better component quality are ok.
Any mechanical component in exclusives means the game is not worth buying because you cut a limb off it to hold hostage as limited time DLC.
RE: Oversized boxes which have sufficient room for the expansion(s)... Maybe that's the whole point? Yeah, if you only have the base game it's wasted space. However, if they knew that they would launch expansions, making the box 'too big' is actually a feature in my opinion. So, Machi Koro is fine here.
I know this is a temporary backdrop so I'm not criticizing. I do think it would be kind of cool if you had a green screen behind you that you put all of your visuals on rather than just flashed on for 10 sec or so.
I hope your future reviews will cover some of these: Is the insert garbage? Does the game play in the stated time? Is it *really* for five players?
Great video. This was one of the funniest top 10 lists you guys have ever done. I had never most of these but then you guys have been gaming for so long. I love the studio, the clipboards look professional, the background is so classically gorgeous. I could do without the slight echo but I imagine this will improve in the future.
I find it ironic that Sam says for number 8 when the expansion to his favorite game - 'Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition' - fixes one of the major flaws of that game.
unconventional card sizes! i cant sleeve obscurio and its already frayed. circle cards???
Mine is obscure card sizes and inserts that dont allow for fit with sleeved cards
I wish you used more concrete examples. It would've helped to understand what you meant.
Zee Garcia: (26:40) "I have a question with my tentacle." LOL.
At the end of #6 Tom discusses games with varying ways to play, and he doesn't like when all the variants are given. This reminded me of his review of M.U.L.E.. Tom didn't like the random event deck. Unfortunately the rules appear to have that deck as part of the main play, but elsewhere says you can play with out it. Tom's rating of MULE dropped because of this deck, which technically was a variant.
As for me, I don't mind, I will experiment with game play to find the way I like. Or will read at BGG what most prefer. Variants are fine with me.
I think this goes hand in hand with games that are not fully play tested and play well rounded out in which Tom and crew also dislike. One of my favorite games, Tomb/Tomb: Cryptmaster has horrible rules and it took a lot of online reading to figure out how to play. If I hadn't done that I would not have my favorite dungeon crawl and a top 3 game of all time. True some games I won't have patience to do such, it has to be a game in which I am heavily interested in. And I do think the publisher should have done more work to fix Tomb, but I wouldn't toss the game aside because of it. It is something publishers need to work on,
If a game has a lot of cards that will be shuffled often and aren't standard size...include sleeves that fit that games cards (preferably already sleeved 😉).
Exclusives that are expensive and difficult to find like...Hili for Blood Rage, Tom rick for AQ, and Zee for Rum & Bones? (We'll, maybe not Zee) ;)
Honestly an addendum to Z's #3, even if they want just those tiny differences.... Offer them stand-alone so if you have version 1, you can get those for just a few bucks.. And be up to speed.
I don't think publishers lie about the recommended age. I heard that you have to put "14 & up" to avoid some governmental regulations.
Know what's even better than KS exclusives? When they DO release it for sale in limited quantities with no limit on purchase numbers for one of the top 10 BGG games.
i'd LOVE to know what stickers were shown during Sam's anti stickers on components rant :))))))
I realize this video is older, but was that an Eddie Izzard reference Zee made on his #9?
One thing I wish publishers would do more of: Examples. State a rule. If it's complex or unusual: give an example, or two! of how it works in play. Please! One good example can be worth hundreds of words, or precious time wondering "what the heck is this?"
(This goes double for Role Playing Games. And give examples of good, playable characters, not weak putzes that no one in their right mind would use. Not one, or two, give a dozen.)
Douglas Dea late but I do think “Weak characters can be used for needs” for examples
I gotta say, you guys make my day with your banter and wisecracks. There's a lot of good points along the way, yet never feels like I'm getting lectured at. Keep up the good work!
I completely agree with the KS one about referencing it. Having backed many, I am more tired of exclusives, just give everyone everything.
I love the Look of the Firefly the Board game Money, but it wasn't very space/Futuristic Feeling .. So I LAMINATED IT ! Great Artwork & the Games Contents Picture on back of Box. I Do Like when the Base Game is Larger if they Plan Expansions because I want them all in One box, But NOT the Expansions. I agree Better/Clear Rules with a Picture of Setup and should be Right when game is Released OR they make new Correct ones you can Request (Free if you own Game), I have Re-Written way to many Rules books to make them Simpler and Correct. Kickstarter I use a lot and Understand, give the Exclusive unlocks free for Backing, then Sell them Later separately. Nice Vacuform Inserts cant be that expensive. Mark Expansions as Expansions for which Game they are For ! STANDARDIZE Boxes to a few Sizes, Different Thickness is ok, but it should fit on Shelves with others !
Publishers really need to do better with insets. I hate when there is a nice plastic insert but my sleeved cards doesn't fit. Why could they just make it a millimeter bigger on each side so my sleeved card can fit? Splendor, Pandemic Cthulhu, Bohnanza and Ascension just to name a few.
one of mine would be "waiting until the absolute last minute to announce your game".
The comment about Cthulhu showing up in non-Cthulhu games... I think you can extend that to things from one IP showing up in a game for another IP (though Cthulhu is certainly the worst one to point out.
My example: I Kickstarted the Dresden Files Coop card game, and I received my copy recently and have been playing it. Now I'm a fan of the Dresden Files books, and we've been going through and playing the game with different combinations of characters, and have to explain to all my friends who haven't read the books, exactly who those characters are. And I knew all of them. until I saw this one who I didn't recognize (Hank Walker, Alias Ra: Sun God for Hire). I'm an older guy, I suppose there could be a character that I just am not remembering. So I started searching the Dresden Files wiki (no mention), I looked at wikipedia itself, again no mention. Maybe it was from a graphic novel, which I haven't read. Maybe it was from a short story that was published separately in some random anthology. I had no idea and it bothered the hell out of me. Well, I finally figured out that Hank Walker is NOT a Dresden Files character. He's a character from some other gosh darned game that I don't play: Sentinels of the Multiverse.
The whole idea of the game is to reproduce the various books in game-form -- so why would you EVER add in a character from a different IP??? Why not just add Mickey Mouse to the Dresden Files. Why not add Cthulhu?
Some combos could be fun IF that's your concept for the game. And some people have done it in other media (such as what they did with "Penny Dreadful", and "The League of Extraordinary Characters". But that was part of a concept, to combine characters from the fantastic literature of the 19th century. But at least that was the basic concept, to combine those characters.. And everyone knows who all those characters are. But who the hell is Hank Walker?
I agree with everything excepts the black borders. I'm fine with them
I would go so far telling: Please stop making cards without borders At all.. I hate sleeving games, not worth my time and money. And when I see a deck of cards without sleeves and I can tell the cards from the side of the deck that is sooo bad. I could just play with an open deck.
Is it just me or is the sound worse in the new set? Bit too much reverb (not sure that's the correct term. german here) due to the room probably being rather empty.
The play time lie doesn't bother me as much as the player count does. I've started doing the same as Tom only mine is with games that say 3- whatever, ( TI3, Game of Thrones just a couple of examples) I automatically say "Yeah you need at least 4 people to play this game."